Germany to Vote Against Software Patents in the EU

YKW writes "According to Ars Technica, Germany has decided to vote against all changes to current European patent laws. In a statement given to demonstrators in Germany, Federal Department of Justice Minsterial Director Elmar Hucko read the riot act to the EC: 'Under no circumstances do we want American procedures in Europe, Hucko vowed with regard to the US patent process. A patent must be "a fair reward for a bona fide invention and not abused as a strategy to bludgeon competitors.' With the largest EU member against software patents and French IT leaders lobbying their goverment to vote against them too, Europe might be saved from software patents. At least for a while. An older Slashdot article about software patents in Europe is here."

Comments

Foreign competitors

[kevmo]

I am curious to see how this will play out with big US companies like Microsoft and Apple, specifically with foreign competitors cloning their products.

Will Microsoft be able to prevent Windows clones from being sold in the US by US patents, even though they may be legal in Europe?

Re:Foreign competitors

[Awptimus Prime]

I think I know what is going to happen:

Eventually, the EU is going to stomp all over US software firms. This will happen after a few years of unrestricted development.

If this pans out well, I'll be looking for citizenship in the EU in the next few years. What's so great about the US nowadays? We've demonstrated that our voting system has failed, that our leadership hates gays, muslims, and does nothing to protect middle america's jobs while all the fatcats get fatter by outsourcing anything and everything they can because they lost their sense of nationalism over a few dollars.

The way I see it, the US has had leadership without any real vision of tomorrow. This has resulted in a world of nations against it. The repair will require a lot more than a democrat in office, too. It will require people actually caring, and that is not going to happen anytime soon. Hell, look how well 9/11 "brought us together". All it brought together were the straight, old white people out in the boonies, and that's only because they all bought the same stickers, t-shirts, and other random 9/11 merchandise at the local gas station. For the rest of us, all we see is a nation filled with hate and sensless, highly reactionary, law making.

Geeks, get your passports ready.. EU or bust! :)

Re:Foreign competitors

[Roger Keith Barrett]

No... the problem is that over the Bush years there HAS been a vision of the future.

And that vision is that the future should be controlled by big corporations with no mediation from the government or anyone else.

Re:Foreign competitors

[killjoe]

Ironically the Bush administration (and republicans in general) hates the germans and the french too. I thought it was very funny when Wes Pruden (an editor of that moonie publication washington times) attempted to insult John Kerry by calling him "french looking".

I wonder if the Bush administration will apply political pressure on the french and the germans to accept these patents? Charles Krauthammer (another republican editor from US news and world report) once called for parking an US aircraft carrier off the coast of france to intimidate them. It will be interesting to see if something like that happens.

Re:Foreign competitors

[the drizzle]

Amen. An amendment against gay marriage? This is the pinnacle of our president's social policy? Whatever happened to the great uniter?

Whether one is for or against the policy of Iraq, the lack of disclosure from this administration is baffling. Any argument one can use against the Clinton administration (lack of disclosure, too much rhetoric) can be multiplied 10x with this administration.

But more to the point...Europe's economy is proving powerful (and increasingly united) against US policy, and we can either oblige their requests or become victim of their policies. We can force Microsoft to start operating fairly or ignore their practices until their business will be fined into financial hell in Europe and some German company takes over the desktop share (with a Linux/FreeBSD distro).

Re:Foreign competitors

[d_strand]

Charles Krauthammer (another republican editor from US news and world report) once called for parking an US aircraft carrier off the coast of france to intimidate them

Oh dear... I *really* hope he was just joking. Can you imagine the hatred that would create? You think the EU is anti-US today? Just wait and see what happens if your government tries something like that :-)

And it certainly wouldn't increase the chance of the EU to do Americas bidding, quite the opposite...

Re:Foreign competitors

[killjoe]

If you are familiar with his writings you will know that he was not kidding at all. Republicans hate france THAT much.

"And it certainly wouldn't increase the chance of the EU to do Americas bidding, quite the opposite..."

I've said it before elsewhere on this thread. As long as you continue to buy american products we don't give a flying fuck what you do. Keep pouring money into our economy, we'll turn that into weapons and fuck you whenever we want.

Re:Foreign competitors

[Anonymous Coward]

You want to do what? Park an aircraft carrier just off the coast of the country that invented Exocet ?

My goodness. That'd certainly be a sight worth seeing! Brief, but worth seeing.

Re:Foreign competitors

[dbIII]

I wonder if the Bush administration will apply political pressure on the french and the germans to accept these patents?

If they do so there will be a repeat of the French reaction to the "vote with us in the UN or face the consequences" demand over Iraq - a firmly extended middle finger. Back then whoever made the demand was either an idiot (maybe it was Rumsfeld?) or it was some deliberately contrived plan to stir up the french so the US could go into Iraq without the UN running the show - because the reaction of the french being threatened like a tiny african republic is exactly what anyone with any awareness of world events would expect.

If the USA applies pressure on France it will be certain that they vote the other way.

Re:Foreign competitors

[txviking]

If 3 countries vote against the directive in the EU Council it is dead. Belgium and German will definately vote against it, but a third country is needed.
However, unfortunately there are already 30,000 software patents accepted by the EU patent office.
What is really needed would be an EU directive explicitly tender them invalid.

Re:Foreign competitors

[txviking]

I know this is not very well understood in the USA, but the civil liberties in the USA are still far ahead of the ones in the EU.
While I agree, that it is time for the US to revert back to a sane patent system, that might happen anyway when they find out that small businesses can not compete on the legal front against the big ones.
I think the only reason the software patent laws in the EU have so much trouble is because the citizens are more experienced in grassroot movement because of the lack of civil liberties

Re:Foreign competitors

[Anonymous Coward]

Why in Gods name would anyone want to clone Windows, its an unmitigated heap of rubbish?

Please mod parent down offtopic. This is not the right place for KDE bashing.

Re:Foreign competitors

[Wastl]

As long as you continue to buy american products we don't give a flying fuck what you do. Keep pouring money into our economy, we'll turn that into weapons and fuck you whenever we want.

Actually, we are importing less from the US than we are exporting to the US. So it's quite the opposite.

Sebastian

Re:Foreign competitors

[cpghost]

once called for parking an US aircraft carrier off the coast of france to intimidate them.

It would be funny indeed, esp. when they send their Charles de Gaulle carrier in vicinity of NYC.

Just in case you've forgot, France is a nuclear power too. They'll be the last to be intimidated by such bullying.

Re:Foreign competitors

[Pelops]

Well, talking about buying american products is not something completely accurate.
Do I buy an american products when i buy IBM or Coca cola ? The answer is far from simple when you think about it.
Don't forget that for examples Coca Cola exports very little. They use local factories to produce the soft drink. Same thing for IBM, they have factories all over Europe.
So when you buy an american product, you are not just giving money to the US, but also to those european countries who host those factories.
Nothing is as simple as black and white.

Re:Foreign competitors

[Anonymous Coward]

Republicans hate france THAT much

And are apparently unaware that France alone has nuclear weaponry capable of doing serious catastrophic damage to the USA?

I don't know where the US gets its absurd image of France, but France is a large first-world nuclear power with global reach.

The US parking an aircraft carrier off France wouldn't intimidate them particularly. Not when the French could take out washington tomorrow.

Re:Foreign competitors

[Anonymous Coward]

And the US does it anyway, given the US has essentially free reign in Irish and British waters - france doesn't get cowed, it just detonates another test nuke in the pacific as a gentle reminder...

Re:Foreign competitors

[AstroDrabb]

I agree 100%. I am born and raised in good ole USA, serverd in the USMC and I am not anti-USA. Though I do hope that we get our butts kicked in the IT world by the EU, China and India. Not because I want to lose my job as a programmer of see others lose thier jobs. It is because our Patent system is very broken, and our big businesses are getting far to much political power that a corporation should _never_ have.

The repair will require a lot more than a democrat in office, too.

Democrats wont' help, they are just as bad as Republicans. Republicans want big business and Dems want big special interest groups such as unions. Look at these "donations" from the Teamsters Union almost all the money is going to Democrats. Contrast that with big business and almost all the "donations" are going to Republicans. The majority of the top 10 "donars" are giving the majority of thier "donations" to Democrats. We need the USA to get closer to a true democracy with more then two political parties to pick from. It is pretty insane to think that all 300+ million Americans fall into one of two political "buckets". And we also need to make it illegal for a corporation to give bribe money. If you cannot vote, you should not be able to make bribes^H^H^H^H^H^Hcampaign contributions.

Look at the top 100 "donators" for the period 1998-2004. Just the top 100 have bribed our politicians with $1,156,273,938! You can see why in our "represented" democracy, the average American is not represented. With billions USD going around in bribes, it is hard for even legit politicans to do thier jobs.

Re:Foreign competitors

[AstroDrabb]

You are really brainwashed by the USA political system. I am born and raised in the USA. What civil liberties does the USA have that are missing in the EU? Posting stupid, unsubstantiated comments like yours makes Americans look dumb to the rest of the world. The people of the EU are just as free if not more free with regards to rights then the people of the USA and have been at it a lot longer then we have. We should drop a little of our self centered pride and maybe we could learn something from the rest of the world.

Re:Foreign competitors

[orcrist]

You want to do what? Park an aircraft carrier just off the coast of the country that invented Exocet ?

My goodness. That'd certainly be a sight worth seeing! Brief, but worth seeing.

Brief? Sorry, no. I'm not one of those knee-jerk "America will kick your ass!" type of Americans but... no. And to the moderators, no it's not insightful. Interesting? Yes.

Your link mentions that it managed to heavily damage a frigate. There's a world of difference between a frigate and an aircraft carrier. From my tour of duty on submarines I can tell you that a frigate of that sort is considered to be a one-torpedo target; one torpedo will literally crack a frigate right in half. Battleships and aircraft carriers nominally need at least 2-3. And that's assuming you even get in range: 65 km? ROFLMAO.

An aircraft carrier is never alone. It is almost always accompanied by at least 2 attack subs and several surface ships ranging 150+ km. around the carrier. No surface ship is getting within even 200 km. of that carrier let alone 65 km. And submarines wouldn't have an easy time of it either. At best it would be a suicide mission (since once they fire, they'll have 2 fast-attacks, a swarm of P-3's, and an ASW cruiser on their ass) and they'd be likely to cause more damage if they simply use their torpedos, or better yet ram it at full speed.

Or, as other posters have pointed out, use nukes. A tomahawk with a tactical nuke and its 1100 km. range would do the trick, assuming the French have them :-P

Don't get caught up with this idea that just because the U.S. is behaving like a bunch of idiots in Iraq, and that guerilla tactics work against a modern army when it's the occupying force among an increasingly hostile populace that that translates to the ocean. Since the break-up of the USSR there is no one (or not even everyone together) who can challenge the U.S. on the seas. Period. That's why the Navy has turned into nothing more than a troop and munitions delivery service: A victim of its own success.

-chris

Re:Foreign competitors

[Distinguished Hero]

Jesus, can I find one thread not containing an anti-American comment at +5 insightful?

We've demonstrated that our voting system has failed

No, you've demonstrated that Florida's electoral system has failed. Thanks to the electoral college, Florida can choose to select their representatives however the hell they want. Regardless how much you whine about it, approximately 50% of voters voted for Bush. It's not like he won with 10% of the vote and a military coup. Gore might have had the popular vote, but the electoral college is there for a reason; whether that reason is valid, of course, is up for debate.

that our leadership hates gays

Look, I'm not saying that Bush is right to attempt to amend the constitution, but not allowing gays to vote is not necessarily hatred. Some would argue that marriage is designed solely for procreation, and includes certain incentives to facilitate that. Personally, I don't see marriage as having anything to do with love (certainly love can exist outside marriage); why do people need the state to acknowledge their love for each other?

that our leadership hates ... muslims

Half the time people insinuate that Bush is in bed with the Saudis (see Fahrenheit 911) and the other half of the time they insinuate that he hates the Muslims. If your leadership really hated Muslims, why would they attempt to stabilise the middle east. I'm sure you think that the Iraqi war is all about oil, and to some it probably is; however, if the administration really hated Muslims, why would they have waged the most humane war in modern history? Furthermore, if they hated Muslims so much, why don't they just invest a whole lot of money in alternative energy sources? Imagine what would happen to the OPEC countries if the US stopped buying their oil...

and does nothing to protect middle america's jobs while all the fatcats get fatter by outsourcing anything and everything they can because they lost their sense of nationalism over a few dollars.

So, now we're accusing Bush of not being nationalist enough? Outsourcing is not a clear cut issue. I'm not saying that I support it, but there are viable arguments on both sides of the fence. If you really wanted to stop outsourcing, you should stop buying items that where produced through outsourcing.

Look, I'm tired of all the anti-American sentiment. As an European, I'd like to point out that Europe and the whole world would have been a lot more fucked up if it wasn't for the Americans. If you want to point out some dubious action undertaken by the US during the cold war, I'd like to point out (as someone who used to live very close to the Soviets) that had the US not fought the Cold war, the world would have been far worse off. Anyways, the people really responsible for the Cold War were those who were so terrified of the US being the only superpower, that they deemed it fit to give the Soviet Union the nuke, but that's for another post.

Re:Foreign competitors

[Dark Master]

the french dont need the tomahawk,
have a look

Re:Foreign competitors

[cluckshot]

I am not being trite when I say read the US Bill of Rights. This is not to say that the EU is not substantially improved from the past, nor to disrespect their current condition. It is also not ignorant of the Domestic Disregard given to the Bill of Rights.

To be painfully accurate there are some areas the EU may actually be paving the way and US Citizens should not be to arrogant. However; the USA has substantial advantages in the Ownership of Property, rights to political dissent and the rights to defend ones rights. These involve a vast improvement in the rights to relief from problems with the government via a court system that despite all its flaws is orders of magnitude more likely to answer to the interests of ordinary people when they dispute with the strong and powerful than in EU or elsewhere.

There is also a very substantial issue of FACT regards the stated government and the delivery. In the USA most people take for granted that the Police and Courts actually will deal with problems and redress without bribery. This is substantially flawed in its delivery even in the EU in comparison.

The American complaints against a progressively declining state of personal liberty are valid. The EU remarks on current progress are valid. The status of fact is a wide seperation in delivery vs expectations. EU types have been raised under a system where they delt with a thousand years of entrenched bureaucracy with its systematic and embedded corruption at a level beyond any American Imagination. They see some improvements in this and have imagined that they are equal or better than the USA which is clearly trending towards the EU condition. In individual cases they may actually be better but taken as a whole, the EU Condition is so intolerably worse than the US condition that Americans would meet it with Firearms if it were suddenly imposed on them.

Much of the current Economic troubles in the USA and Social Discord are the result of this trend towards EU solutions and methods.

You asked for a explanation. You got it! In synopsis, the EU is a Bureacratic Super State where Citizens have no particular rights except those granted by PERMIT. The Brussels system will further dominate the area by an Oligarchy and the delivery of individual freedom in the EU is questionable at best in FACT. The US System is degrading towards the EU model. Regards "social" issues the EU is a socialist mecca. Some personal demands they make in exchange for their rights include the loss of freedom to change jobs easily in exchange for the protection of employment, better severance pay, and a more assured retirement.

This is not to say that they are worse or better in these areas. This illustrates the complete NON-Parity of the comparison. Imagine you not being able to quit your job today unless you want to pay your employer. Imagine having 5 weeks of vacation paid a year vs none or just 2 weeks. Imagine your employer required to pay benefits such as Health Care. Some may read this as EU better and US worse. Some may see it US Better.

Re:Foreign competitors

[RogerWilco]

The American Servicemembers Protection Act of 2002 was nice,
it authorises an invasion of my country (The Netherlands) if an USA soldier is ever brought to the International Court in The Hague.
I do not understand that our government could support Mr. Bush after that, but they beleived the WMD lie.

Re:Foreign competitors

[cluckshot]

Mod the Parent UP!

Campaign Finance Reform should come in the following solutions.

Only Real Persons who are "Qualified Electors" in the district of an election should be allowed to give to campaigns.

All Contrabutions of any size should be disclosed.

Citizens should be allowed to bring charges for violations and have them prosecuted.

Heavy fines for those giving and those knowingly receiving violations should occur. If in office, IMMEDIATE REMOVAL should also apply and the prosecution here should be totally by Civilian Effort.

The penalty for any foreign national giving to a US Election should be DEATH. In addition this should apply to any US candidate or office holder knowingly taking the money or to their assistant who knowingly takes the money from a foreign person or Corporation!

There is no substitute for Citizenship here either. No person should be a Qualified Elector unless they reside in the district of the election and are a taxpayer in the district. If you don't pay the bills you should not decide how the money is spent. It is beyond irresponsible to allow parties to vote who cannot or do not support the system.

Finally the USA Citizens had better take seriously the fact that they need to quit listening to slick media campaigns and choosing parties because "They can win." They need to support the parties who support and care about their country.

Remember Membership is India PAC or the India Caucus is TREASON. It would apply to any party elected to US office who sells his representation to another nation. These are our Benedict Arnold Congressmen and Senators.

Re:Foreign competitors

[Akimotos]

Yeah, that would be a great move, force the Europeans into hating America too .. you know what will happen? Europe will stop transporting American stuff around the globe (check who is doing logistics on Pepsi, Coke, Levi's, Nike and plenty of other things).... come on....

Re:Foreign competitors

[Doomdark]

However; the USA has substantial advantages in the Ownership of Property, rights to political dissent and the rights to defend ones rights.

The only entities in USA that have significantly better rights of ownership are corporations -- they are not considered first-class entities (as citizens are) in most european countries. But as to "defend ones rights", I assume you refer to gun ownership. Most europeans would consider these dubious "rights" indeed; not something that add to general well-being, or overall liberties of population. But due to vastly different culture, many Americans do think it is. Just like most europeans think death penalty and extensive health-care are serious "rights" issues, whereas most americans do not (that is, everyone is entitled to complete health-care, independent of their financial status; likewise, that government has no right to kill its citizens that are in its custody).

In the USA most people take for granted that the Police and Courts actually will deal with problems and redress without bribery.

This is just plain wrong: to claim that (western) european countries are all (significantly) more corrupt than USA. Check out latest evaluations by economic organizations (OECD), and you will find out that some european countries (scandinavian, especially) are even less corrupt than USA (which is fairly clean, overall, compared to most world countries), whereas some (southern europe, France), are somewhat more corrupt (somewhat debatable; some cultural things may or may not be considered related to corruption).

EU types have been raised under a system where they delt with a thousand years of entrenched bureaucracy with its systematic and embedded corruption at a level beyond any American Imagination.

Uh, no. Do NOT lump all EU countries along with the ones with most Byzantine and corruption-prone bureaucracies. You are probably thinking worst side of French bureaucratic system. But that's as far from protestantic countries (anglo-saxons, scandinavians), if not more, than from US standards. And even then it's insulting (intellectually and otherwise) to imply there's systematic full-scale corruption in even most problematic of countries.

EU itself, as an organization, is bureaucratic; and has potential to become significantly (more) corrupt. But it has no powers comparable to US federal government, and hopefully never will.

Finally, a minor nitpicking:

Imagine you not being able to quit your job today unless you want to pay your employer.

This would never happen in any european country I know of. True, employee is to give advance notice, just as employer, albeit with much shorter advance (in general, 1 month). However, employer has no means to prevent you from leaving the same day. You will just obviously burn the bridges there, and won't be paid salary for the remaining time you were supposed to be working. That's hardly any different from US standards. Same is not true for employers; depending on country and your employment status, they have to give 1 to 6 months notice for non-temporary workers.

Re:Foreign competitors

[Alsee]

the USA has substantial advantages in the Ownership of Property

Considering the general subject here is software patents, are you are you reffering to Ownership (??capitalized??) of "Intellectual Property"?

Yeah, the US has absolutely mindboggling "advantages" in the Ownership of Intellectual Property. The US issues patents on software, granting Ownership of math. (My) Dumbass government.

-

First Post!

[thewldisntenuff]

Our neighbors across the pond might actually have a good idea for once :) ...

If the WIPO can get a standard software patent system across both sides (US and Euro), preferrably like the Europeans, we might not be reading Slashdot headlines every morning that read "Apple Patents the English Language!", etc. The US Patent system is dated, and needs change, especially when such patents can be made and there is such a high backlog of patents...Time shall tell, but this may be the first step in getting software/IP patents sorted out

Re:First Post!

[cshark]

If this goes through, and is successful in Europe, I would imagine that it would only be a matter of time before the US conforms to a similar system. That would certainly make my life easier. Europeans aren't so bad. Many of the things they're doing in modern Europe are downright sensible. Socialized medicine for example. But that's a subject for another post. Glad to see it's not the whole world that gone mad. Just us crazy Americans...

Re:First Post!

[IgnoramusMaximus]

Canadian, we rely on you to invent and produce medicines so we can loot them

You Sir, are a despicable bottomfeeding greedmonkey who believes that if he cannot get ahead of everybody else in something, then that something is communist, evil and a work of Satan. If you like the US style medical system so greatly, do not let the door hit on your way down South.

Also for your information, Canada has many research facilities and I am personally involved with companies manufacturing unique pharmaceutical products which are being exported to the USA. There is great profit to be made since the drugs sell at insane prices down there. So much for looting. The only one who wants to loot things here is you. You, in your abysmal arrogance, believe that you are special and will be forever able to earn enough income to guarantee yourself superior medical care. All of it possible only because generations of Canadians through their common effort have built a place for you to piss about in. Yet you, like any right-wing asshole out there, will certainly take exclusive credit for everything good that happens to you claiming that its a result of your hard work. That is why you consider capitalism a religion. Never you mind that Canada is as capitalist as it is reasonable to be. The purpose of the entire excercise is to make life for all Canadians better and not just to make a few whiney jerks into millionaires at the expense of everybody else.

Well, my wish for you is that you go to the USA, denounce Canadian citizenship (because we are the communist paradise), get in an accident, be unable to work and your medical costs exceed 10 times your insurance coverage. I hear dying of a curable illness because you cannot afford the cure sucks. Have fun. That is what you deserve.

Hm, interesting...

[NeoChaosX]

And for the Americans who may ask "It's Europe; who give a flying fuck?", you need to know that the entire European Union is much larger than the United States, both in population and economy. And since Germany is the EU's largest member (and the article also points out efforts in France to block the software patent laws), this this could really heat up the war over software patents.

Re:Hm, interesting...

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe you're a bit behind the times. These days, it's the entire world that says "It's America, fuck them!"

Re:Hm, interesting...

[timeOday]

you need to know that the entire European Union is much larger than the United States, both in population and economy.

Population, yes, economny, no:

EU GDP: 11.50 trillion Pop: 454,900,000
US GDP: 10.40 trillion Pop: 290,343,000

Sure a trillion more is a lot in absolute terms, but it's only 10%.

Anyways in this case it might be more relavant to define a "software GDP," and for now I think the US would be #1 in that dept.

If the EU does resist software patents, it should be interesting to watch: will monetizing every little idea create more value for US companies and keep them in the lead, or will the increased freedom in the EU lead to products that integrate all the best features, leading to EU dominance? And does Microsoft even care, since they can easily buy any company with patents they want? Stay tuned...

Re:Hm, interesting...

[Scarblac]

10 new countries joined the EU on May 1. I remember hearing on the news back then that this made the EU economy bigger than that of the USA. I think your numbers are pre-expansion.

Re:Hm, interesting...

[arkhan_jg]

The numbers are accurate - if you look closer, it's the EU that's 10% larger than the US. However, I agree the parents phrasing made me think at first that he was saying the US was larger.

Re:Hm, interesting...

[Talence]

I think it's safe to say that every country has its share of bigoted idiots. The good news is that we don't need to let friendships between people be defined by borders: you will always be able to find that 1 person in another country who is closer to your way of thinking than many of your co-citizens. Even a very bigoted American online "friend" of mine of the "let's nuke the world" type appeared to have more prolonged and bitter fights with other Americans than with others.

If Europe blocks the new patent laws, then as a European I am very very glad. However, I share the belief that the U.S. will also potentially benefit from it. It's good. Let common sense and reason prevail so that we all come out better.

Re:Hm, interesting...

[killjoe]

If they do then it's all just hot air. Until the rest of the world stops buying american products they will suffer under our "leadership".

People of the world. Get your shit together.

Do not buy american products.
Do not go to american movies.
Do not listen to american music.
Do not wear american clothing.

People in the US laugh at you every time they see a protestor wearing a pepsi shirt or eating a mcdonalds.

Re:Hm, interesting...

[TenPin22]

US National Debt = $7,147,545,929,573.40

Or if you like $7.1 Trillion.

http://www.publicdebt.treas.gov/opd/opdpenny.htm

Dunno what the EU National debt is but I don't think we run a $500 Billion trade deficit and the Euro isn't a reserve currency and you can't buy oil directly with Euros (yet).

Once you see the Euro as a reserve and oil currency you can kiss the US economy goodbye.

All that American debt testifies to the USA's free ticket to creating dollars out of thin air. As long as they aren't spent in the USA they can effectively pay interest in dollars on the dollars it borrows from Asia, Russia, Europe, China and the Middle East.

Once the rest of the world wakes up and starts trying to get out of the dollar for whatever reason (oil peak, war, terror attacks), allllll that cash will flow back to the USA and cause hyperinflation.

Yes, the USA is heading for complete financial collapse taking most of the world with it leaving the EU to emerge as the dominant economic world power.

If you look at history currency systems have only ever lasted about 30 years so we are long overdue for a complete crash since the USA stopped backing the dollar with gold in the 1970s.

It's been a fun last 50 years but the party is almost over !

Oh yeah and getting back to the topic, no software patents in Europe could be an incentive for companies to base in Europe only furtherering the USA's economic decline.

Re:Hm, interesting...

[Yokaze]

> People in the US laugh at you every time they see a protestor wearing a pepsi shirt or eating a mcdonalds.

I think this is the perfect picture showing the "You are either with us or against us","The world hates us"-attitude

Maybe they fail to remember that, very likely, the very same people demonstrating went to American embassies to express their condolences.
Maybe those people fail to realise that those protestors are against a certain administration representing a certain policy.
Maybe they are plain too dumb to understand that those demonstrators simply want to demonstrate their dissatifaction with the US administration policies but don't want the US economy to go down into a slump and see them be unemployed.

And what would the reaction of those American people be when the world would boycott their products? Wouldn't it even enstrengthen the "World hates us"-feeling?

Re:Hm, interesting...

[VanillaCoke420]

The world is not black and white. You can't act all the time with this simplistic binary thinking. "You don't like some of our foreign policies? Well then you're not allowed to like anything that we do!". Eh, yeah that's smart. Why would your music get any worse just because some of the things your president does aren't all good? Why would the entertainment value of your movies get worse? Why do I have to make the choice of either hating you all for everything you do, or to love you all for everything you do?

Re:Hm, interesting...

[flossie]

Please explain what mystery economic process would cause this. It doesn't matter if I buy my oil in pesos or groats, it still costs the same, and the exchange rate is still 27 pesos to the groat no matter which currency I use.

The mysterious process that would cause the US economy to collapse is the change in exchange rates. While US dollars are the reserve currency in which oil is traded, all nations need to ensure that they have a fistful of dollars in reserve with which they can buy oil. This means that the US treasury can print and spend dollars and can get goods in return while being confident that most of these dollars are safely tied up in foreign national banks and will not be "cashed in" against the US reserves. In effect the US has literally been able to print money since the gold standard was abolished.

If Euros become the new reserve currency, all of a sudden there will be a whole lot of dollars used to pay off any trade balances with the US. Instead of getting goods in return for paper, the US will start to get paper in return for goods. The final effect will be massive inflation in the US and a plummeting dollar on the international exchange markets.

If you want a slightly more coherent and well thought out explanation of this, I suggest you read Will Hutton's The state we're in.

Re:Hm, interesting...

[Bananenrepublik]

Until the rest of the world stops buying american products they will suffer under our "leadership".
Don't the US have a hugedforeign trade deficit? I.e. they actually import much more than they export? So in a sense you could say that the rest of the world already did.

Re:Hm, interesting...

[matt4077]

You dont't get it. The world does not protest american products, movies, music, clothing or McDonalds (some do, but I'm talking about the reasonable rest).

The world protests American foreign policies. If they were to boycott American Everything, it would be much easier to call them Anti-American. They're not Anti-American. They love the American Way of Life, American Freedom and everything. They just wished the US would live it's own dream, instead of participating in the historic experiment "Why Rome collapsed".

Re:Hm, interesting...

[orcrist]

Don't the US have a hugedforeign trade deficit? I.e. they actually import much more than they export? So in a sense you could say that the rest of the world already did.

In fact that's been the case for most of my life, I think. However, I have a personal theory that the U.S. exports something a bit more ephemeral than products:

Our appetites and whims. Yes, you read that right. I truly think that the immense *hunger* of the U.S. consumer (pun intended) translates into a power over the world market which influences companies around the world to cater to those desires. Then, since it's more efficient to market your appeal to a somewhat uniform market, those companies turn around and sell things to their own compatriots in an 'American' way.

This is just my little theory about this subject. I could be wildly off base, but it rings true to me.

-chrs

Re:Hm, interesting...

[orcrist]

Exactly!! Are you listening my fellow Americans? That is representative of almost every German I know (me: American living in Germany. But I speak fluent German, so they don't always spot me). I'm sure it's the case with most French. The Germans are anything *but* anti-American. Most of them are still very grateful for things like the Marshall Plan and the Berlin airlift, and they cheered and fawned last time Clinton visited. It's Bush, his government, and its policies, that they hate. That's all.

If we pull our heads out of our asses and vote him out (maybe some remedial voter training in Florida?), then I think you'll find a huge change in attitude coming across the Atlantic. The Middle East is different. Bush has probably set us back at least a decade or more there as far as public opinion goes. The terrorist recruiting camps probably rub their hands in glee every time Bush speaks :-( He's a living breathing recruitment poster for people pissed at the States.

-chris

Re:Hm, interesting...

[jebiester]

While US dollars are the reserve currency in which oil is traded, all nations need to ensure that they have a fistful of dollars in reserve with which they can buy oil. This means that the US treasury can print and spend dollars and can get goods in return while being confident that most of these dollars are safely tied up in foreign national banks and will not be "cashed in" against the US reserves.

Some people have speculated that this was the reason the US went to war against Iraq. Iraq was intending to sell it's oil in euros rather than US dollars, and the US wanted to send a message that this can't be tollerated.

There are a couple of articles like This one (I don't know how reliable they are though).

Re:Hm, interesting...

[k98sven]

The Euro is a reserve currency. Naturally, it's still far from the USD, but it is being used as a reserve currency.

I about 15% of China's national reserve are in Euros, for instance.

A good first step

[ErichTheWebGuy]

On Groklaw, this was reported last Thursday. Not only will Germany vote no, but there is some pretty heavy pressure on France to do the same. In fact, to quote Groklaw, "They call business methods patents on software corporate racketeering and say they don't want to copy US methods"

The entities putting pressure on the French govt. include the head of MandrakeSoft, who has pretty heavy pull over in France. In fact, IIRC, a lot of French govt. agencies use Mandrake Linux.

strategy

[bladesjester]

all that companies in the EU will have to do if software patents are denied in the EU will be to set up a small arm of the company in the US. since most software products are sold here as well, they can just do the litigation here in the US. all it would take is for the company violating the patent to have an office or bank account in the US or to sell the offending product in the US...

Re:strategy

[Anonymous Coward]

A patent in country A is not valid in country B, is it?

Re:strategy

[bladesjester]

doesn't matter if the EU honors them or not. as long as two things happen

1) the company in the EU has a branch in the US through which to file the patent with the US patent office

2) the company accused of violating this patent has either an office or bank account in the US or sells the product which allegedly violates the patent in the US.

if those two conditions are met, the company holding the patent can sue in the US, bypassing the EU completely.

Re:strategy

[sydb]

But if the EU decides not to honour US patents, and GWB is appointed President for a second term, I see another cold war brewing.

Patents work.

[digitalPortal]

The overall premise of patenting an invention is valid and protects the inventor. However, I agree the current system is highly abused. The flaw in the current system, is the ability to patent 'IDEAS' even if you cant physically create a functioning prototype. For example, right now you can patent the 'IDEA' of a hovercraft car, and 50 years from now when someone actually develops a hovercraft car...they *must* pay royalties to you. ???? this needs to be changed. You should only be able to patent physical process (algorithms, products) and not ideas. -$0.02

Re:Patents work.

[WindowLicker916]

Patents are to protect the creators idea. If I was to mention a completly original idea to someone, then they ran out and come up with a physical copy before me, patented it as their own idea, I could possible be screwed from millions/billions of $$'s. Of course there are alot more problems that may arise from that patent system, to take into account, But I am sure you can come up with some for yourself. Look what happened to Steve Jobs (Microsoft)

Re:Patents work.

[J. T. MacLeod]

Not everyone has a shop in their backyard sophisticated enough to build anything their imagination can dream of.

Re:Patents work.

[Abcd1234]

Then save up some money, or get a private backer. The patent system doesn't exist to protect every single inventor and their pet ideas. It exists to encourage inventors to disclose their ideas (thus encouraging further innovation) while retaining the ability to gain a profit from them via a limited monopoly on the idea. 'course, it's a little tough to gain profit from an idea if you can't even afford to create a friggin' prototype. So, patents won't help you... big surprise, that's not their purpose! Unless, of course, your aim is to dream up wild ideas and patent them on the off chance that you'll have an opportunity to extort some poor company. And if that's your plan... well, let's just say I'm glad you're not the head of the USPTO.

Re:Patents work.

[McDutchie]

You should only be able to patent physical process (algorithms, products) and not ideas.

I thought that was called "copyright". The whole idea with patents is to monopolize ideas, not specific products which is copyright's domain.

Re:Patents work.

[linuxhansl]

I agree, a patent is by itself a good concept.

For software (aswell for music and movies, btw), however, copyright law already regulates ownership. Allowing patents on software is like allowing patents on sequences of tunes or on sequences of images. It's absurd.

With copyright governing in the software world, you can be sure that whatever you write yourself from scratch is yours. With Patents allowed you may infringe on existing patents without your knowledge. That is the big difference.

I don't know our friends in the music industry would react if patents on sequences of tunes or images would suddenly be allowed.

Re:Patents work.

[J. T. MacLeod]

Patenting simple ideas and abusing legitimate businesses tends to be the realm of large businesses, not private parties, though it does happen both ways.

Nonetheless, requiring fabrication is a burden that places most patents in a class that only wealthy businesses can pursue.

Finding a private backer isn't all that easy, especially when you can't reveal your invention because you haven't patented it. Saving money can either take time or be beyond the realm of possibility. Patents were made for the small man, NOT for the mega-corporation. That's changed significantly in the years between.

My great grandfather, in his lifetime, twice invented something that could revolutionize the automotive industry. The first time, he could not find a private backer, nor would his wife let him put their house at risk to get the money to patent it himself. He took a gamble on the good will of the men in Detroit, and lost. Terribly. His invention was stolen.

The second time he came up with something far more amazing. This time, he was able to get the money to pursue patenting it. He couldn't get a patent, though, because his prototype was deemed inadequate. He fully intended to pursue marketing it to a company which could make use of it, but he didn't, because he couldn't protect it.

I've personally designed several things that could be quite impactful, but I'm unable to pursue marketing them to companies that could make use of them because I lack the very sophisticated and expensive resources necessary to begin down the path required by the present system. Though I prefer ideas be in the public domain, I know that, generally speaking, to bring an invention or improvement to a wide market so that it will be useful, it must be protected by a patent so a company will consider using it. What can I do? Nothing, presently. It's really killed my passion for invention.

Genuine innovation, and the pursuit of marketing that innovation, is indeed possible without the resources for fabrication. It's happened a lot over the years, but most people aren't able to do anything with it, because the present system is classist.

Re:Patents work.

[Abcd1234]

He took a gamble on the good will of the men in Detroit, and lost. Terribly. His invention was stolen.

Well, I hate to say it, but that was his mistake. Perhaps he should have gotten some advice from a lawyer or a businessman first. As another poster alluded, your great grandfather should have had a contract written up which would have prevented the automotive companies from stealing his idea (ie, allowing him to retain rights to any resultant patents). If it was as revolutionary as you claim, I'm sure the automotive industry would have signed the contract.. He chose not do to that, though, likely due to naivete (certainly not his fault), and the rest is history.

He couldn't get a patent, though, because his prototype was deemed inadequate.

Then it was inadequate. I hardly see how this is the USPTO's fault. Build a better prototype. *shrug*

It's happened a lot over the years, but most people aren't able to do anything with it, because the present system is classist.

Boo hoo. I say again, the USPTO doesn't exist in order to protect your average inventor and their pet ideas. As for your complaint that "the present system is classist", that is really a problem with capitalism... the fact is, the people with resources are the ones who are capable of developing new ideas. Big surprise. It takes money to develop new ideas into real, valid products. The USPTO can hardly be blamed for this.

The alternative is that you let just anybody patent absolutely anything. Great. So, instead of truly innovating, i.e., coming up with a new idea, creating a prototype, and actually *bringing it to market*, I'll just do the first part! Then, when some company independly develops my idea, I'll just sue them!

Sorry, but I prefer the current system.

Now, I'm sorry to hear that you feel cynical about the way the system works. But it is what it is. If your ideas are so wonderful, take them to a company, convince them to sign an NDA, and develop your idea. If you can't do that, then maybe, just maybe, your idea isn't as great (or as feasible) as you assume.

Re:Patents work.

[AstroDrabb]

There are tons of ways to go about doing what your grandfather did. He should have paid a small fee to a lawyer to draft up an NDA. Then anyone he pitched the idea to would have to sign it. If they break it, he sues.

There is no point in allowing people to just patent an idea without any prototype. What would stop a person or groups of people from just thinking up all kinds of crap all day long and patenting everthing then can? That person or persons are bound to come up with some ideas that will be put into use someday. So they should be able to sit back and collect money for no work?

I am a programmer and can think up tons of ideas of what technology _may_ be around in the next 5-10 years. Should I be allowed to just patent those and then go on a suing spree in 5-10 years when there is anything that is close to my patenets?

The patent system is not made to make any single inventor rich (though that may be a side effect), but to enrich society as a whole with _new_ and _novel_ ideas, methods and products.

When it's all said and done...

[DoraLives]

my guess is that the entire house of cards in the US will all come crashing down. The canny Europeans seem to be looking slightly ahead here with an eye toward saving themselves some trouble farther down the road.

Re:When it's all said and done...

[Anonymous Coward]

Spot on.
I've said this before here. What is going to happen when the huge backlog of trivial and unworthy patents are invalidated en masse? The stupid companies that spent money on them are going to lose them all outright. That would add up to billions of asset capital wiped off in an instant.

These big corporations may feel smug and clever at grabbing patents on swinging sideways and one click whatever, but who will be laughing when they are told they are worth nothing and the money has gone. Not the shareholders that's for sure.

Shareholders should act against companies making weak IP claims because they are just flushing money down the pan for the future.

If you think that Europe is not 'cooperating' with the (ridiculous) American way of thinking about these things wait until you hear what the rest of the world thinks about it. You think the Indians and Chinese are going to repect twisted patents?
Think again.

Amen

[WindowLicker916]

Hopefully this will eventually cause change in the American patent system. The current system pratically stifles competition and clogs our court systems, costing millions to tax payers. I mean, come on, why should one click shopping be considered a patentable idea?

Re:Amen

[penguinoid]

I mean, come on, why should one click shopping be considered a patentable idea?

Because it is worth several billion dollars to have a patent (monopoly) on it.

Re:Amen

[cmacb]

But only with our patent system. It's a self fulfilling prophesy that if you create an artificial limit on the availability of anything (in this case ideas) that what little remains will become more "valuable". If international trade continues to be the way of the world, only an international patent system with some "World Court" form of adjudication can make it work. Otherwise, we here in the US will continue our circle jerk in our own courts while unfettered innovation will take place somewhere else.

Somethings got to give here. I wish I knew what it would be.

Patent This

[Deaper]

I still want to get a patent for the human reproductive proccess so that I can essentially control who can and can not reproduce. Gosh knows somebody needs to.

Well

[acceber]

I suppose if Germany decides not to support the European Commission on changes in the law to software patents, then nobody can sway them otherwise because they are a sovereign state and don't have to comply with what the WIPO or the EC says.

The WIPO as an agency of the UN, can aim to standardise patent laws worldwide but of course, international law isn't binding and Germany has all the right in the world to choose not to recognise law outside of their domestic jurisdiction.

Ultimately, if Germany doesn't have the political will to support the EC on changes to software patents...then nobody can force them.

I also wonder...

[ErichTheWebGuy]

For the benefit of the uninformed, such as myself, can anyone shed some light on how international patent treaties work? Say,

printf "hello world";\n

is patented in the US, but in another country that has a patent treaty with the US, it is ruled that software patents are illegal.

Who wins there? I would think local law would trump any treaties, but am I wrong?

Re:I also wonder...

[arkhan_jg]

Simple. there's no patent treaty between the US and the EU.

With copyright, (the Berne convention) once it's written, it's automatically copyrighted in all Berne nations (which is most of them). Registering is still a good idea if you're expecting someone else to claim ownership on the same or very similar work. Licensing said works though, still has to be done via national bodies, which is one reason itunes hasn't come to europe yet.

With patents, you need to register in every country you want patent protection in. The patent rules are not universal, and at least between the EU countries and the US, there's no treaty recognising each others patents. However, I believe it is possible to use patents from other nations to demonstrate prior art, and if you have a patent in one country, it can speed up the prior art examination in another.

As far as software goes, there is a specific exemption in EU patent law that disallows pure software patents. This is what the big companies are lobbying to remove, under the guise of 'tidying up' the law. This is because the EPO has been granting 'computer implemented inventions' on the basis that if it needs hardware to run, or is part of a hardware system, the whole thing can be patented. Of course, these patents are of very questionable legitimacy, so the patent holders have not been sueing for infringement in europe as the end result would probably be they'd lose the patent.

If they can change the law to legitimise their current patents though, and allow more, big US patent holders will be able to shut down large swathes of the EU software development houses (the EU has a huge number of small and medium companies, rather than the few big ones in the US, thus vulnerable to long winded patent ligitation)

Note, the European Patent Office allows you to register your patent with them, and ask for it to be as valid in as many of the EPC signing nations as you want to pay for. The EPC is a patent convention, harmonising patent law between the signing nations, which includes some nations outside the EU itself. Definitely not the US tho!

And my own position; patents on maths, ideas or business methods should remain illegal. We already have a method for protecting specific implementations of inventions in software, it's called copyright. Patents should be the process of protecting specific physical inventions, i.e. a specific mousetrap spring design, not the idea of 'a device that traps mammals'. Imagine if people started patenting plot ideas in novels or TV shows!

heh

[maelstrom]

One gets the impression we could make the EU do anything we wanted with reverse psychology.

"OH Bush likes it? Dirty Texans, we shall do the opposite."

Re:heh

[talornin]

Is that so bad?

Id be apt to belive that running a nation based on the oposite of every action Bush takes would make a peacfull and harmonic nation of responsible people whos promary goal is not to make as much money as possible so they can eat as much junk food as possible.

Re:heh

[maelstrom]

Its not bad if the issues are being carefully thought through and considered. I'd rather see the EU be PRO-something than ANTI-asomething.

Re:heh

[anshil]

Pro-Something? Heh! We're currently running the biggest peace project ever! We're uniting europe and just now slowly spreading to the east. Two weeks ago we embraced 10 new countries from the former east. It will cost us millons of billions to bring them to western standards and to get an equably spreaded weatlh - by the way a major goal of the EU - this is the only way to ensure permant peace, as unequality will always result in war&terrorism. Thats something the US does not get, 9/11 has shown you can built tons of rockets and warships it does not save you from the massive dangers of disproportionateness .

Re:heh

[anshil]

I agree, however I constantly want to emphasise the EU started as a peace project after world-war II no one thought about economic benefits or draw-backs. Now in the 1990ies we concentrated mainly on the economic aspects. However I think it's important to keep in mind the political aspects EU - and it's economic way of integreation to ensure peace where it lais it hands upon.

The new countries will now make a hard a time! Just think what the unionation of germany ment for west germany. They still aren't over to the top-hill.

I guess I shouldn't get my hopes up

[Anonymous Coward]

It must be a sign of how jaded I've become .. I get no joy out of this announcement because there are probably 500 different things that will happen to reverse it or otherwise change it.

I fully expect the United States to exert effort at the request of $LARGE_COMPANY on Germany to "harmonize" with US law.

Then when/if US intellectual property law comes up for debate, the US will say "we can't have different laws than Europe, we must harmonize!"

Who knows.. I'm not optimistic.

Re:I guess I shouldn't get my hopes up

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually the US can't force the EC to do anything anymore. As someone pointed out, they have a larger economy (more people, yes... but it's still a larger economy). And frankly america has "lost face" over iraq, and this damages prestige. Prestige is hard to quantify, but if you piss everyone off over one issue... other things get harder.

So the war in iraq isn't *just* sapping millions of dollars a day from the US, you are also losing prestige. Furthermore, your prestige is also going to take a *huge* blow if you pull out of iraq and let it become a hellhole/puppetdemocracy/iran2/whatever. People will say, "look that 'superpower' can't even conquer a tiny country properly - we have nothing to fear".

So there are interesting days ahead, I for one used to believe in america as an ideal - dislike most of the people yes, but the ideal was there. You were my kin, I would have considered dying defending your shores were you under mortal threat (just as the french fought by you at your birth)... but now, I am indifferent, because not only do I dislike most americans now, but I think the american ideal has changed drastically. It is not something worth defending. Your legislators have wiped their asses on the constitution so many times you cannot read the print for the shit. And your populance has stood by and let this happen.

Now the american ideal is the american cautionary tale for how not to let your democracy fail. Some will learn from it, others will not. Life will continue.

America has left a mark on history, and it is still up for grabs as to what that mark exactly is. But right now, it's looking like a stain.

Re:I guess I shouldn't get my hopes up

[toby]

not only do I dislike most americans now, but I think the american ideal has changed drastically. It is not something worth defending. Your legislators have wiped their asses on the constitution so many times you cannot read the print for the shit. And your populance has stood by and let this happen. Now the american ideal is the american cautionary tale for how not to let your democracy fail.

As an Australian, I say: AMEN to that. Our ties should be with Europe and Asia. We're getting rid of our pathetic Bush-puppet government just as soon as we can.

Dear America,

[adept256]

Your patent laws are a train wreck.

Sincerly,

The rest of the world.

Europe and USA

[Henrik S. Hansen]

This is an example of how countries in Europe are *not* run by large corporations, but by the people (at least compared to the US).

Economic Advantage

[St. Arbirix]

Methinks that the EU might be a good place to look into for some fun IT work if they regard the US system like that.

Think on it: Within the EU software ideas will run wild, everyone having access to nuance inventions in their software, whilst over here in the US you won't be allowed to measure the length of a click, run an application within another, nor make an entire window transparent without getting permission from someone else (possibly paying for it).

I wonder how long it will be before free Elvis albums won't be the only product of Europe States-side corporations will try to block.

--

Up through college in the US, everything else anywhere else.

Doesn't anybody love us anymore?

[razberry636]

I've been reading how the U.S. government has lost quite a bit of "face" lately because of the Iraq prison scandal and other things related to our presence in Iraq.

And now here we read from leaders of other nations, "Under no circumstances do we want American procedures in Europe." It seems that dissing the U.S. is going to become more regular.

I think that just a few weeks ago we might have heard the same guy say something like, "I don't think software patents are such a good idea." Or perhaps that he was giving the idea some consideration.

But now we don't seem to have the moral high ground that we used to have.

(American == bad) && (!American == good)

Re:Doesn't anybody love us anymore?

[Vlad_the_Inhaler]

ok, read it as
"Under no circumstances do we want to repeat the mistakes the Americans made with their procedures, in Europe."
Saying the Americans got something wrong is not being anti-American, you will notice that US gun-control laws are virtually unique in the world and that has nothing to do with Iraq.

Don't panic, or at least don't be overly sensitive on an issue like this.

Unclosed double quotes?

[AnuradhaRatnaweera]

The double quote in

A patent must be "a fair reward...

doesn't seem to be closed anywhere until the end of the post.

Re:Meanwhile, in France...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah I'm not french either. And although I like to have a dig at them occasionally the fact that I know it is probably americans modding this up (and who created tehe video) just ruins it. We english have been at war with the frogs and dissing them out for much longer and have a right to this humour.

Whereas you americans.... The french helped you fight us off, the french bled and died fighting for your freedom. That makes any jibe by an american toward them (ala the republicans not long ago) a spew of filth.

Disgrace. The french not supporting (i.e. verbal) your quite questionable war equates to treachery? How about remembering the guys who died for you, and died for an ideal.

fuck you, you stinking fucks. this is where anti-americanism stems from. right here, from your stinking ignorance and disrespect.

Wakeup Call

[Anonymous Coward]

Germany will NOT vote against SWPATs and probably never will. ArsTechica fell for an uninformed Heise news where the reporter was not listening carefully.

What they said is the same they always said: "We will not vote for it." -- which means they are planning to abstain, not vote against it.

And they are abstaining for the wrong reasons, also.

The babbling about "not wanting US like situation" is entirely insubstantial. Nothing but hot air to distract from the fact that they are indeed working on total patentability.

So do not misunderestimate the German BMJ.

They are are among the hardest hardliners.

The FSFE was more informed -- and issued a statement to ask them to actually walk the path that the news see them walking on:
http://mail.fsfeurope.org/pipermail/press-release/ 2004q2/000059.html

Re:Wakeup Call

[Vlad_the_Inhaler]

Der Spiegel (article in German) does not agree with you. Maybe they also listened to Heise but it does not look like it.

Re:Wakeup Call

[kompiluj]

Kinda strange, but DO YOU READ what you cite?
Quoting:
Last Wednesday Elmar Hucko, head of a government department in the Ministry of Justice, announced at an event in Berlin that the Federal Government would vote against the controversial software patent directive of the Council of Ministers of the European Union

I'm sure...

[bullitB]

...FhG and other groups that receive government funding in Germany will be giving up their all their math- and software-related patents, too. After all, such a ruling would put Dolby, for instance, at something of a disadvantage in Europe, wouldn't it?

Dear Rest of the World

[Anonymous Coward]

We own the patent on train wrecks and your post is infringing on that patent.

Lobby

[Vitanova]

National parliaments do matter. You can still send e-mails to fi the parliament's commission for economic affairs. They can then put some pressure on the minister (secretary of economic affairs). Do create some stir. Especially if you are in one of the 10 new members too.

I think it's the double standards

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the main reason is: you set a lot of rules, then refuse to follow them yourself.

Examples: nuclear weapons pact, bioweapons pacts, chemical weapons pacts. You use your power position in the UN wrongly. You request following the Geneva treaty for people who have been imprisoned by your enemies, yet you set up concentration camps to Guantanamo and beat people to death in the Iraqi prison you control. Then you cry foul when a citizen is dramatically killed (Berg). And don't even think all of this started with 9/11. No, no.. it had been going on for a longer time. You have to go back to the beginning of the previous century to see all the details and find the reasons.

Whenever something happens to you, you cry foul, although there's a good chance you have already done something similar to some other country.

I think such double standards are the main reason of dislike towards USA. Using the power position to set rules for other, and then ruthlessly exploiting and ignoring them.

And remember, most people hate the country, and what it represents, and especially the government, but have no quarrels with the ordinary citizen.

I am posting this anonymously because it will draw a lot of flak from people who do not read this post with thought and consider this a flamebait. It's not. You can think yourself if the opinions in this post are correct or not and could this be the answer to your question.

Italy too?

[xlyz]

Italian Minister for Technological Innovation, that is not entitled to vote ( DOH! ), has strongly recommended his collegues partecipating to vote against as well

[meta] time for an EU icon?

[CComMack]

Just a suggestion: might it not be wise to create a topic and icon for matters pertaining to EU law, in parallel to the Stars and Stripes icon often seen on YRO stories pertaining to US law? I for one am finding the many "earlier Slashdot stories" referenced in the text of every EU software patent story one reads nowadays to be a tedious method of threading.

And before I get modded down by the Europe bashers, let me disclose that I'm an American who finds it edifying to keep up with events across the pond, and have no interest in the "Is Slashdot too Americentric" debate.

Pretty easy

[soccerisgod]

If the german government choses to not vote in favor of this, then only because they're sure their vote is not needed in order to have this passed.

Elections for european parliament are coming up. That's why. Don't be fooled for one minute by the german government: they voted against the iraq war even though they probably wanted it - to win elections. They don't critize the US for what happened in iraq recently, but are killing themselves to tell everyone how aweful the beheading of one US citizen was - to get a permanent seat in the UN security council.

Don't trust them. They WANT this law. They fought for it for years. They're just opportunistic, that's all.

Re:Pretty easy

[DanBrusca]

This has nothing at all to do with the European elections. 99.99% of the electorate probably don't even know what software patents are, let alone give a damn.

Re:Pretty easy

[anshil]

Well ain't this the very idea of democracy? To force the leaders to do that what the people want, and not to follow their own needs?

Re:Pretty easy

[ahillen]

Elections for european parliament are coming up. That's why.

Yes. And, I mean, everybody knows that software patents is a hotly debated topic where the average german/european voter is emotionally very attached to, right? Right.

they voted against the iraq war even though they probably wanted it - to win elections.

I don't have any reason to believe that the german government really wanted the war. And knowing the political history of the current ruling parties in Germany, doubly so.

Big picture

[12357bd]

Good! The experiment continues, now we'll have software industry with & without patents in each side of Atlantic.

Monopolies (US economy) vs Regulations (EU politics).

In the long run EU-US / US-EU will have to synchronice not only patent systems, but also legal and fiscal proceedings. The first step is already done with the euro / dollar semi-parity, it seems the rest will follow as soon as world can accept.

What's in a sig?

WIPO/TRIPS actually FORBID software patents!

[Halo1]

suppose if Germany decides not to support the European Commission on changes in the law to software patents, then nobody can sway them otherwise because they are a sovereign state and don't have to comply with what the WIPO or the EC says.

First of all, as member of the EU, Germany has to comply with EU directives that are passed. Next, WIPO does not only not require software patents, it even forbids them (just like TRIPS).

The excuse used by software patent proponents regarding TRIPs, is article 27:

Patents shall be available for any inventions, whether products or processes, in all fields of technology, provided that they are new, involve an inventive step andare capable of industrial application.

This text however explicitly uses terms which are defined nowhere else in the treaty (like "invention", "field of technology" and "inventive step"), so that signing members can define these terms themselves in such a way that they fit best in their existing laws.

According to article 52 of the the European Patent Convention, a computer program can never constitute an invention. And in the Parliament proposal of the directive, "field of technology" is defined in such a way that computer programs, maths, business methods etc do cannot belong to one (even if they're executed on a computer).

And on top of that, there's articles 7 TRIPs which is interpreted by the WTO as that the measures as implemented must ...

.. contribute to the promotion of technological innovation and to the transfer and dissemination of technology, to the mutual advantage of producers and users of technological knowledge and in a manner conducive to social and economic welfare

Most evidence points to the contrary as far as software patents are concerned.

So TRIPs does not require software patents, how does it forbid them?

Article 10 of the TRIPs treaty states:

Computer programs, whether in source or object code, shall be protected as literary works under the Berne Convention (1971).

As opposed to what a first reading would suggest, namely that this simply means that copyright protection must be available for computer programs, this article goes further. The WTO states on its website regarding article 10.1:

The obligation to protect computer programs as literary works means e.g. that only those limitations that are applicable to literary works may be applied to computer programs.

Since patent protection is unavailable for literary works, it can't be available for computer programs either according to TRIPs. Proponents of software patents often counter this using their interpretation of "computer program as such", which turns "computer programs with a further technical effect" into "computer-implemented inventions", which in turn would supposedly not be affected by this exclusion.

This interpretation is however invalid due to article 4 of the EU Software Copyright directive from 1991. This article states that a computer program as literary work includes the following (emphasis mine):

... the permanent or temporary reproduction of a computer program by any means and in any form, in part or in whole. Insofar as loading, displaying, running, transmission or storage ...

The WIPO Copyright Treaty also contains applicable clauses (article 10):

(1) Contracting Parties may, in their national legislation, provide for limitations of or exceptions to the rights granted to authors of literary and artistic works under this Treaty in certain special cases that do not conflict with a normal expl

Disgraceful

[mccalli]

Then you cry foul when a citizen is dramatically killed (Berg).

Yes. And quite rightly so. A beheading is not a 'crying foul' matter, nor is it an excuse to score anti-US points on a tech bulletin board (provided to you, of course, by the people you seem to hate so much, the Americans). Total revulsion is surely the only acceptable reaction - two wrongs don't make a right. Accordingly, I have to regard your cheap shot as despicably low.

I'm not American and am drastically against many recent changes in the US, but please - a sense of perspective. I have many American friends, I have even more American friendly acquaintences (online forums, work etc). - it is not an evil nation. It shouts about itself rather too much and its current leadership are, at least in my opinion, somewhere between here and Alpha Centauri in terms of their grasp on reality but you're forgetting the people themselves. They'll correct it eventually, don't worry.

Cheers,
Ian (British)

bullshit - there is already a patent law in europe

[struberg]

But it is currently not possible to patent trivia things!
The current law is more like an analogy to the copyright of written books. So it is currently NOT possible to simply copy a software programm, and it is NOT possibly to infringe a patented mechanism!

Remember that one of the most important patents - the mpeg layer 3 better known as mp3 - is from Germany, from the Frauenhofer Institute. And they were already able to protect their discovery with an european patent.

So all people who compare europe with the copy-all situation like practiced in some parts of asia simply speaks bullshit!

So if anyone claims that is is possibly to clone Windows in europe SIMPLY LIES!

On the other way it would be practically impossible for to simple single person to code a small piece of software without being frightend to be sued by a large company.

2 days ago there was a conference/meeting against software patens - and guess what: the main speaker was an american programmer: Richard Stallman himself!

best regards, strub
vienna, austria (mozart but NO kangaroos)

Belgium will vote against as well!

[andr0meda]

Ok, so that's a small country, but still.. there is some political momentum to vote against. If we can convince one mor member state to vote against, the vote will be dismissed.

Re:EU vs Great Britain or US?

[Halo1]

We in the US think that this is really a poke at the US, but if I recall correctly, aren't the big pushers for the software patents really from Great Britain?

Both are big pushers. The UK Patent Office inside the EU, the US as their backup. If we can get the decision postponed on Tuesday, it's possible that we could finally start making things change for the good in the UK as well. Some people are finally getting past the UKPTO civil servants and through to the politicians themselves.

Would it not be ironic if Switzerland (home country of CERN...) votes for them?

Switzerland is not in the EU, so doesn't have anything to say about this.

Re:bullshit - there is already a patent law in eur

[Halo1]

But it is currently not possible to patent trivia things!

That is incorrect. Just look at this patented webshop.

Remember that one of the most important patents - the mpeg layer 3 better known as mp3 - is from Germany, from the Frauenhofer Institute. And they were already able to protect their discovery with an european patent.

With several European Patents actually. This is the basic one:

Digital coding process for transmitting and/or storing acoustic signals, specifically music signals, comprising the following steps:

• N samples of the acoustic signal are converted into M spectral coefficients;
• said M spectral coefficients are subjected to quantisation at a first level;
• after coding by means of an entropic encoder the number of bits required to represent all the quantized spectral coefficients is checked;
• when the required number of bits does not correspond to a specified number of bits quantization and coding are repeated in subsequent steps, each at a modified quantization level, until the number of bits required for representation reaches the specified number of bits, and
• additionally to the data bits the required quantization level is transmitted and/or stored.

As you can see, this is a patent not just on mp3 compression, but on any audio compression scheme which iteratively tries to compress an audio sample until it fits in a pre-determined number of bits.

The problem with these European software patents is that they are currently in general not enforceable in a court. The reason is that the European Patent Convention forbids software patents. The European Patent Office is an independent institution however, which gets its funding from granting patents, so it creatively reinterpreted that convention. That does not change the law nor the opinion of the courts, however (except for the UK).

You're right however that we have strong copyright laws, and that simply copying other people's code is not allowed (unless they agree, like in case of GPL'd code), not even if it's just a few lines.

"Software GDP"

[Max Threshold]

How can you define a "software GDP" when a U.S. company with a patent portfolio can suddenly declare that a few trivial lines of code are worth, say, three billion dollars?

Software is not a tangible product and it has zero value. Only the service of producing and maintaining it has value. The EU is on the verge of acknowledging this; apparently, Americans are the only ones stupid enough to be duped by companies "monetizing every little idea," as you so succinctly put it.

Re:private systems are not always the best solutio

[sydb]

pure private health care systems seems to be less effective and less efficient as well

Fairly obvious really, considering that private companies have as their primary objective the extraction of the largest possible profit margin.

How that goal leads to healthy people I simply don't know!

Perspective: Germany is 10 of 126 votes: 37 needed

[Holger Blasum]

in the competetiveness council. According to Nice treaty, 37 votes are needed to stop the Council Proposal as is. (Whereas the Parliament Proposal limited software patentability, the Council Proposal allows patentability and needs to be fixed).

As you can see on a newswiki in addition to the abstentions of Belgium (5 votes), Luxembourg (2 votes), there are some positive statements from some eg Italian, Slovenian, Spanish etc politicians too, but it is very much in your interest keep the in touch with your government today and on Monday too (Discussion/Voting in the Council scheduled for Tue 18 May; calculate for some time for transmission of your local govt's opinion to Brussels representative!). More help (including pointer to irc) here.

Re:Doesn't Europe have software patents already?

[flossie]

Maybe I'm ignorant, but I thought patents applicable to software algorithms (e.g. RSA, GIF, and MP3) could be filed for in European countries.

Article 52(1) and (2) of the European Patent Convention:

(1) European patents shall be granted for any inventions which are susceptible of industrial application, which are new and which involve an inventive step.

(2) The following in particular shall not be regarded as inventions within the meaning of paragraph 1:

(a) discoveries, scientific theories and mathematical methods;

(b) aesthetic creations;

(c) schemes, rules and methods for performing mental acts, playing games or doing business, and programs for computers;

(d) presentations of information.

The mathematical methods and programs for computers parts both rule out patenting of computer algorithms. The European Patent Office may have granted many patents for these things (in violation of the Convention) but that doesn't mean that they would be enforceable in court.

Re:Meanwhile, in France...

[MrMr]

In that year the French were occupied by Germany.
The U.S. didn't enter into that war until 1941.
Until the end 1943 the official U.S. policy was to appease the Vichy German puppet regime.
It was only Churchill that managed to get the U.S. to reluctantly support the free French.

WW2 and WW1

[aepervius]

In case you do not know, I will do you a little HISTORY lesson. The US came into WW1 because the german made the FATAL error of sinking some of your ship at the wrong moment of the war (1916) 2 YEAR after it had begun. In other word, were those ship intact, US would have sit back to the other side of the pond. Furthermore US came at a time when the war was already decided (with germany on the losing side).

Now let us see another fact : WW2. US Also ONLY came into the war when Pearl Harbour occured , a FULLY 2 years in the war 1941. Should I remind you that the war started in 1939 ???

"Who was busy giving up the bulk of the secrets to USSR during the cold war until voted out?" Really ? You should please citate the number of secret "given" out by France. Furthermore you should get a list of the spying the US did in France, and the number of secret "given" out by the US & weapon given to sud american dictator to fight "communist" rebellion.

"France keeps trying to use us to try and regain their powers of old."
As opposed to US imperialism attacking country on their own despite not having the mandate from the UN and the world being against it ?


Please let us not start the game of mud throwing. A few years ago France might have had as much dirt as you, especially bungled stuff like the "rainbow warrior", but France is since long not a super power on its own anymore. Unlike the US which is abusing on economical , political front its superpower status. Dirt is cumulating so quick at US doorstep it is a shame.

Ireland is to vote against it too

[Milton Waddams]

I read an email sent from an MEP to the ILUG, saying that she was dead against it.

link to the email

Re:Ireland is to vote against it too

[Halo1]

It's now the Council of Minister's turn, the European Parliament had its say last September (and will have its next say after the Council decided). Although it's great to see that Irish MEPs will try to influence the Irish government, it's quite unlikely they'll succeed. The Irish presidency is, together with the UK, the strongest backer of software patents in the EU.

Nevertheless, actions like that can create press attention and that is very important. Politicians must realise this is an issue "the people" care about, and not just some technical matter which can be settled in back rooms.

mod me Un-insightful

[moviepig.com]

What sort of legal definition could discriminate between a software and a non-software patent?

...and, bearing in mind that patents are a means of enlisting the prodigious creative efforts of the masses, isn't innovation in software at least as desirable as in any other arena?

(With respect to patent-abuse, anything can and will be abused. The question is always whether such negative side-effects can be suppressed enough to net a clear benefit.)

I assume /. has addressed these questions earlier, but I couldn't find succinct answers...

RMS is in Europe

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't see anywhere here mentioned that RMS was in "the new Europe" last week having lectures about software patents.

He had one lecture in Prague and one in my hometown Bratislava (possibly also elsewhere, don't know). I actually stood like a meter from RMS last Friday! The lecture was a really great experience.

Three words: Making his point.

[Kjella]

"You are really brainwashed by the USA political system. (...) What civil liberties does the USA have that are missing in the EU?"

Free unfettered speech. The kind that will offend my neighbor, my government, anyway.

See, America has this great freedom in theory (First Amendment etc.) but in practice you had McCarthyism, trying to choke anti-war movement regarding Vietnam and the latest anti-terrorist/muslim/arab selfcensorship.

Ever noticed the uproar over a few coffins? Imagine showing their bloody bullet-ridden corpses lying in Iraq. Or how many think the tortured Iraqis "deserved what they got" in the US prisons?

The only place where we're more conservative than the US is when it comes to racism, which I think is your error in judgement, not ours. Think of it as class action libel/slander, which isn't legal neither here nor there.

We may not have that many great quotes, being spread over dozens of constitutions, some that say little about it at all. But I think you will find your freedom of speech is greater than in the US, whether you want to talk about drugs, abortion, religion, nudity, pornography, war or pretty much any other controversial topic.

Kjella

Political culture

[quax]

Having lived both in the US and the EU I don't even know where to start. You couldn't be more wrong about your concept of liberty by Permit only in the EU. All EU countries have constitutions that guarantee citizens right and protect their human rights - like not being arrested without due process - something that has now happened twice to American citizens who have been labeled enemy combatants and were denied their basic right to make a call to get a lawyer. Such abuse of executive power is simply inconceivable in the EU at this point.

But what I find even scarier is the culture of intimidation in the US (where I currently live again). In Germany it is perfectly normal to strike up a conversation about politics at the office e.g. at your lunch break. In Corporate America more often then not policies discourage the employees to discuss such controversial topics. Democracy can not work without public discourse. I think this is actually the underlying reason why the democractic processes are so broken in the US - people in this country do not talk about political topics any more because they are afraid they may offend somebody and fear the repercussions. A colleague of mine actually told me that she is afraid to show her political leanings because she knows that her boss doesn't share them and she's afraid that she wouldn't get a promotion if he knew. I never heart a similar sentiment expressed to me in Germany.

Re:one more step...

[feelyoda]

But that is the point...

Such a region is failing to pass the US.
Our economy is booming. They are laggards.

We are actively debating freedoms and liberties, with the Patriot Act and the backlash against it; there is little resistance against the onslaught of PC speech codes.

We make the barriers to business small, i.e. some states makes it very easy.

It only is getting harder in the EU where, where regulators are having an unopposed field day.

So, in terms of advancing technology, quality of life, wealth & opportunity, the US is "winning".

What are you talking about?

Doesn't matter at all.

[incom]

Since both france and the USA have enough nukes to char broil each other. And since when has talking about going to war against a democratic, peaceful, and nuke bearing western european country been a sane thing to talk about in the USA? It's that kind of humanity risking talk that causes anti-americanism.