Germany to Vote Against Software Patents in the EU

YKW writes "According to Ars Technica, Germany has decided to vote against all changes to current European patent laws. In a statement given to demonstrators in Germany, Federal Department of Justice Minsterial Director Elmar Hucko read the riot act to the EC: 'Under no circumstances do we want American procedures in Europe, Hucko vowed with regard to the US patent process. A patent must be "a fair reward for a bona fide invention and not abused as a strategy to bludgeon competitors.' With the largest EU member against software patents and French IT leaders lobbying their goverment to vote against them too, Europe might be saved from software patents. At least for a while. An older Slashdot article about software patents in Europe is here."

Comments

Foreign competitors

[kevmo]

I am curious to see how this will play out with big US companies like Microsoft and Apple, specifically with foreign competitors cloning their products.

Will Microsoft be able to prevent Windows clones from being sold in the US by US patents, even though they may be legal in Europe?

Re:Foreign competitors

[Awptimus Prime]

I think I know what is going to happen:

Eventually, the EU is going to stomp all over US software firms. This will happen after a few years of unrestricted development.

If this pans out well, I'll be looking for citizenship in the EU in the next few years. What's so great about the US nowadays? We've demonstrated that our voting system has failed, that our leadership hates gays, muslims, and does nothing to protect middle america's jobs while all the fatcats get fatter by outsourcing anything and everything they can because they lost their sense of nationalism over a few dollars.

The way I see it, the US has had leadership without any real vision of tomorrow. This has resulted in a world of nations against it. The repair will require a lot more than a democrat in office, too. It will require people actually caring, and that is not going to happen anytime soon. Hell, look how well 9/11 "brought us together". All it brought together were the straight, old white people out in the boonies, and that's only because they all bought the same stickers, t-shirts, and other random 9/11 merchandise at the local gas station. For the rest of us, all we see is a nation filled with hate and sensless, highly reactionary, law making.

Geeks, get your passports ready.. EU or bust! :)

Re:Foreign competitors

[Roger Keith Barrett]

No... the problem is that over the Bush years there HAS been a vision of the future.

And that vision is that the future should be controlled by big corporations with no mediation from the government or anyone else.

Re:Foreign competitors

[dbIII]

Will Microsoft be able to prevent Windows clones from being sold in the US by US patents

That's what copyright is for - applying patents examined by a very lax authority is not the way these things should be done, especially with a written work like software.

Re:Foreign competitors

[Anonymous Coward]

Why in Gods name would anyone want to clone Windows, its an unmitigated heap of rubbish?

We want a world free of patent rubbish so that people can be creative an innovative again.

Re:Foreign competitors

[killjoe]

Ironically the Bush administration (and republicans in general) hates the germans and the french too. I thought it was very funny when Wes Pruden (an editor of that moonie publication washington times) attempted to insult John Kerry by calling him "french looking".

I wonder if the Bush administration will apply political pressure on the french and the germans to accept these patents? Charles Krauthammer (another republican editor from US news and world report) once called for parking an US aircraft carrier off the coast of france to intimidate them. It will be interesting to see if something like that happens.

Re:Foreign competitors

[the drizzle]

Amen. An amendment against gay marriage? This is the pinnacle of our president's social policy? Whatever happened to the great uniter?

Whether one is for or against the policy of Iraq, the lack of disclosure from this administration is baffling. Any argument one can use against the Clinton administration (lack of disclosure, too much rhetoric) can be multiplied 10x with this administration.

But more to the point...Europe's economy is proving powerful (and increasingly united) against US policy, and we can either oblige their requests or become victim of their policies. We can force Microsoft to start operating fairly or ignore their practices until their business will be fined into financial hell in Europe and some German company takes over the desktop share (with a Linux/FreeBSD distro).

Re:Foreign competitors

[d_strand]

Charles Krauthammer (another republican editor from US news and world report) once called for parking an US aircraft carrier off the coast of france to intimidate them

Oh dear... I *really* hope he was just joking. Can you imagine the hatred that would create? You think the EU is anti-US today? Just wait and see what happens if your government tries something like that :-)

And it certainly wouldn't increase the chance of the EU to do Americas bidding, quite the opposite...

Re:Foreign competitors

[killjoe]

If you are familiar with his writings you will know that he was not kidding at all. Republicans hate france THAT much.

"And it certainly wouldn't increase the chance of the EU to do Americas bidding, quite the opposite..."

I've said it before elsewhere on this thread. As long as you continue to buy american products we don't give a flying fuck what you do. Keep pouring money into our economy, we'll turn that into weapons and fuck you whenever we want.

Re:Foreign competitors

[Anonymous Coward]

You want to do what? Park an aircraft carrier just off the coast of the country that invented Exocet ?

My goodness. That'd certainly be a sight worth seeing! Brief, but worth seeing.

Re:Foreign competitors

[dbIII]

I wonder if the Bush administration will apply political pressure on the french and the germans to accept these patents?

If they do so there will be a repeat of the French reaction to the "vote with us in the UN or face the consequences" demand over Iraq - a firmly extended middle finger. Back then whoever made the demand was either an idiot (maybe it was Rumsfeld?) or it was some deliberately contrived plan to stir up the french so the US could go into Iraq without the UN running the show - because the reaction of the french being threatened like a tiny african republic is exactly what anyone with any awareness of world events would expect.

If the USA applies pressure on France it will be certain that they vote the other way.

Re:Foreign competitors

[txviking]

If 3 countries vote against the directive in the EU Council it is dead. Belgium and German will definately vote against it, but a third country is needed.
However, unfortunately there are already 30,000 software patents accepted by the EU patent office.
What is really needed would be an EU directive explicitly tender them invalid.

Re:Foreign competitors

[skifreak87]

In response to your comment about US leadership w/out vision, go read Peter Singer's The President of Good and Evil: The Ethics of George W. Bush. Real interesting, while Singer is extremely controversial, he basically attempts to show how Bush could not have any logical moral or ethical backing behind his actions/policies/plans. He has no ideology that he's following except possibly that it's up to the US to save the world from Satan's evil minions.

Re:Foreign competitors

[txviking]

There are rumours that it would be very beneficial for the world if the patent laws would be inacted.
I have heard Microsoft's is planning in such a case to immediately stop all development and sales of Windows products and lay off all technical staff and transform into a accounting firm just skinning the patent license from all linux products that will take the place of Windows.
Good news -- Windows is out, Linux is in
Bad news --- Everybody must pay a compulsory license tax directly to Microsoft.

Re:Foreign competitors

[txviking]

I know this is not very well understood in the USA, but the civil liberties in the USA are still far ahead of the ones in the EU.
While I agree, that it is time for the US to revert back to a sane patent system, that might happen anyway when they find out that small businesses can not compete on the legal front against the big ones.
I think the only reason the software patent laws in the EU have so much trouble is because the citizens are more experienced in grassroot movement because of the lack of civil liberties

Re:Foreign competitors

[Anonymous Coward]

Why in Gods name would anyone want to clone Windows, its an unmitigated heap of rubbish?

Please mod parent down offtopic. This is not the right place for KDE bashing.

Re:Foreign competitors

[Vlad_the_Inhaler]

Outsourcing happens here (Europe) as well.

As to some of the rest, you have your own agenda. I think it was Chirac who said 'we are all Americans now' in the aftermath of 9/11, then the Bush administration made a conscious decision to throw all that away in the manner you describe.

Re:Foreign competitors

[xophos]

Would you please be so kind as to deliver any examples, where the US have desireable civil liberties, Germany doesn't?

Re:Foreign competitors

[Wastl]

As long as you continue to buy american products we don't give a flying fuck what you do. Keep pouring money into our economy, we'll turn that into weapons and fuck you whenever we want.

Actually, we are importing less from the US than we are exporting to the US. So it's quite the opposite.

Sebastian

Re:Foreign competitors

[cpghost]

once called for parking an US aircraft carrier off the coast of france to intimidate them.

It would be funny indeed, esp. when they send their Charles de Gaulle carrier in vicinity of NYC.

Just in case you've forgot, France is a nuclear power too. They'll be the last to be intimidated by such bullying.

Re:Foreign competitors

[flippah]

That ist absolutely no problem for them without any patents. They are protectet by copyright, thats enough to make clones illegal.

Re:Foreign competitors

[WalksOnDirt]

As I understand it, WINE could be considered a clone of Windows, and many people find it usefull.

Re:Foreign competitors

[Pelops]

Well, talking about buying american products is not something completely accurate.
Do I buy an american products when i buy IBM or Coca cola ? The answer is far from simple when you think about it.
Don't forget that for examples Coca Cola exports very little. They use local factories to produce the soft drink. Same thing for IBM, they have factories all over Europe.
So when you buy an american product, you are not just giving money to the US, but also to those european countries who host those factories.
Nothing is as simple as black and white.

Re:Foreign competitors

[Anonymous Coward]

Republicans hate france THAT much

And are apparently unaware that France alone has nuclear weaponry capable of doing serious catastrophic damage to the USA?

I don't know where the US gets its absurd image of France, but France is a large first-world nuclear power with global reach.

The US parking an aircraft carrier off France wouldn't intimidate them particularly. Not when the French could take out washington tomorrow.

Re:Foreign competitors

[Anonymous Coward]

And the US does it anyway, given the US has essentially free reign in Irish and British waters - france doesn't get cowed, it just detonates another test nuke in the pacific as a gentle reminder...

Re:Foreign competitors

[-noefordeg-]

" once called for parking an US aircraft carrier off the coast of france to intimidate them"

Yes! Lets intimidate Europe. I guess we don't have enough nuclear weapons to pass around to even think about standing up against a boat. I bet Russia would be happy to sell a few to another European nation if the price was right.

Re:Foreign competitors

[AstroDrabb]

I agree 100%. I am born and raised in good ole USA, serverd in the USMC and I am not anti-USA. Though I do hope that we get our butts kicked in the IT world by the EU, China and India. Not because I want to lose my job as a programmer of see others lose thier jobs. It is because our Patent system is very broken, and our big businesses are getting far to much political power that a corporation should _never_ have.

The repair will require a lot more than a democrat in office, too.

Democrats wont' help, they are just as bad as Republicans. Republicans want big business and Dems want big special interest groups such as unions. Look at these "donations" from the Teamsters Union almost all the money is going to Democrats. Contrast that with big business and almost all the "donations" are going to Republicans. The majority of the top 10 "donars" are giving the majority of thier "donations" to Democrats. We need the USA to get closer to a true democracy with more then two political parties to pick from. It is pretty insane to think that all 300+ million Americans fall into one of two political "buckets". And we also need to make it illegal for a corporation to give bribe money. If you cannot vote, you should not be able to make bribes^H^H^H^H^H^Hcampaign contributions.

Look at the top 100 "donators" for the period 1998-2004. Just the top 100 have bribed our politicians with $1,156,273,938! You can see why in our "represented" democracy, the average American is not represented. With billions USD going around in bribes, it is hard for even legit politicans to do thier jobs.

Re:Foreign competitors

[AlfredoLambda]

That's why we hope in Spain our government votes against the Microsoft^WIrish directive, seeing their involvmente with free software in Extremadura and Andalucía. Cross your fingers!

Re:Foreign competitors

[AstroDrabb]

You are really brainwashed by the USA political system. I am born and raised in the USA. What civil liberties does the USA have that are missing in the EU? Posting stupid, unsubstantiated comments like yours makes Americans look dumb to the rest of the world. The people of the EU are just as free if not more free with regards to rights then the people of the USA and have been at it a lot longer then we have. We should drop a little of our self centered pride and maybe we could learn something from the rest of the world.

Re:Foreign competitors

[noselasd]

ReactOS

Re:Foreign competitors

[orcrist]

You want to do what? Park an aircraft carrier just off the coast of the country that invented Exocet ?

My goodness. That'd certainly be a sight worth seeing! Brief, but worth seeing.

Brief? Sorry, no. I'm not one of those knee-jerk "America will kick your ass!" type of Americans but... no. And to the moderators, no it's not insightful. Interesting? Yes.

Your link mentions that it managed to heavily damage a frigate. There's a world of difference between a frigate and an aircraft carrier. From my tour of duty on submarines I can tell you that a frigate of that sort is considered to be a one-torpedo target; one torpedo will literally crack a frigate right in half. Battleships and aircraft carriers nominally need at least 2-3. And that's assuming you even get in range: 65 km? ROFLMAO.

An aircraft carrier is never alone. It is almost always accompanied by at least 2 attack subs and several surface ships ranging 150+ km. around the carrier. No surface ship is getting within even 200 km. of that carrier let alone 65 km. And submarines wouldn't have an easy time of it either. At best it would be a suicide mission (since once they fire, they'll have 2 fast-attacks, a swarm of P-3's, and an ASW cruiser on their ass) and they'd be likely to cause more damage if they simply use their torpedos, or better yet ram it at full speed.

Or, as other posters have pointed out, use nukes. A tomahawk with a tactical nuke and its 1100 km. range would do the trick, assuming the French have them :-P

Don't get caught up with this idea that just because the U.S. is behaving like a bunch of idiots in Iraq, and that guerilla tactics work against a modern army when it's the occupying force among an increasingly hostile populace that that translates to the ocean. Since the break-up of the USSR there is no one (or not even everyone together) who can challenge the U.S. on the seas. Period. That's why the Navy has turned into nothing more than a troop and munitions delivery service: A victim of its own success.

-chris

Re:Foreign competitors

[John Betonschaar]

>>What's so great about the US nowadays?

You won't have to have a national ID tatooed into your forehead or right palm, and you still have the right to keep and bear arms.

Ah so that is what still is great about the US?? That every looney can keep and bear arms and possibly use it to shoot other people? Never wondered why there are so much more shooting incidents in the US compared to Europe, huh?

And what's this 'national ID stamped on your forehead' BS all about? What's wrong about having a national ID as long as you're not involved in something criminal or illicit?

Re:Foreign competitors

[Holger Spielmann]

Charles Krauthammer (another republican editor from US news and world report) once called for parking an US aircraft carrier off the coast of france to intimidate them. It will be interesting to see if something like that happens.

It already happens.
Or how can somebody explain at whom this weapon is targeted?
War against terror? What fucking terrorist has satellites?

Re:Foreign competitors

[imr]

Actually their code is protected by copyrights laws which are enough for that. Their code was leaked and yet you don't see "clones" of windows risen out of the brushes.
As for "clones" like kde and gnome, you don't see them killing mswindows in a big way, actually the menace they represent is based on them being free, not on them being "clones".
And finally, don't forget that mswindow was a big rip-off of the mac interface which was ... etc etc and all of them do evolve with time following their own trend, ending finally as very different one from the others. So once again, there is no need for patents here.
And another note, the european legal system is already quite hard on intellectual property. Look at the lindows trials. It didnt turn out well for ms in the usa, but they did win a few trials easily in europe to have their name protected. So us companies have nothing to fear about europe suddenly becoming a heaven of pirates. It has never been the trend here.
What is more likely to happen is that if europe doesnt adopt such a stupid set of laws in the undemocratical way that the european patent office tries to pull, it is the us patent office that will have to find a more saner way to work, especially to find a way to regulate the patents they grant (right now, a joke), in order to have the european then harmonize their own laws.
So it would be a win-win situation for both side of the pound.

Re:Foreign competitors

[Distinguished Hero]

Jesus, can I find one thread not containing an anti-American comment at +5 insightful?

We've demonstrated that our voting system has failed

No, you've demonstrated that Florida's electoral system has failed. Thanks to the electoral college, Florida can choose to select their representatives however the hell they want. Regardless how much you whine about it, approximately 50% of voters voted for Bush. It's not like he won with 10% of the vote and a military coup. Gore might have had the popular vote, but the electoral college is there for a reason; whether that reason is valid, of course, is up for debate.

that our leadership hates gays

Look, I'm not saying that Bush is right to attempt to amend the constitution, but not allowing gays to vote is not necessarily hatred. Some would argue that marriage is designed solely for procreation, and includes certain incentives to facilitate that. Personally, I don't see marriage as having anything to do with love (certainly love can exist outside marriage); why do people need the state to acknowledge their love for each other?

that our leadership hates ... muslims

Half the time people insinuate that Bush is in bed with the Saudis (see Fahrenheit 911) and the other half of the time they insinuate that he hates the Muslims. If your leadership really hated Muslims, why would they attempt to stabilise the middle east. I'm sure you think that the Iraqi war is all about oil, and to some it probably is; however, if the administration really hated Muslims, why would they have waged the most humane war in modern history? Furthermore, if they hated Muslims so much, why don't they just invest a whole lot of money in alternative energy sources? Imagine what would happen to the OPEC countries if the US stopped buying their oil...

and does nothing to protect middle america's jobs while all the fatcats get fatter by outsourcing anything and everything they can because they lost their sense of nationalism over a few dollars.

So, now we're accusing Bush of not being nationalist enough? Outsourcing is not a clear cut issue. I'm not saying that I support it, but there are viable arguments on both sides of the fence. If you really wanted to stop outsourcing, you should stop buying items that where produced through outsourcing.

Look, I'm tired of all the anti-American sentiment. As an European, I'd like to point out that Europe and the whole world would have been a lot more fucked up if it wasn't for the Americans. If you want to point out some dubious action undertaken by the US during the cold war, I'd like to point out (as someone who used to live very close to the Soviets) that had the US not fought the Cold war, the world would have been far worse off. Anyways, the people really responsible for the Cold War were those who were so terrified of the US being the only superpower, that they deemed it fit to give the Soviet Union the nuke, but that's for another post.

Re:Foreign competitors

[Dark Master]

the french dont need the tomahawk,
have a look

Re:Foreign competitors

[Ed_Moyse]

I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong since I'm not an expert on civil liberties in either the US or the EU... but can you give one concrete example of how "the civil liberties in the USA are still far ahead of the ones in the EU"?

Re:Foreign competitors

[CmdrGravy]

Presumably it would be menacing Paris from the English Channel where no doubt it's aura of americano would prove an invulnerable shield against any weasly French or English shore defences or military action.

Re:Foreign competitors

[Anonymous Coward]

What's wrong about having a national ID as long as you're not involved in something criminal or illicit?

Read Pierre Honeyman's blurb to find out why.

And what's this 'national ID stamped on your forehead' BS all about?

That's a biblical reference. This is where you're supposed to reject all of my arguments entirely because I referenced the Bible.

That every looney can keep and bear arms and possibly use it to shoot other people?

Right, because everybody sane knows that only looneys keep and use firearms. Since you think guns should be banned because people could ``possibly use it'' to shoot other people, I think Windex should be banned because children might drink it, pencils should be banned because people might possibly poke each other's eyes out, computers should be banned because they do cause RSI, CRTs should be banned because they might cause cancer, and doorlocks should be banned because they might hinder emergency personnel in the event of them having to come into your house to shock your heart back to life after two thugs with baseball bats broke into your house, beat the shit out of you, raped your wife, and killed your children, all because you didn't have a way to protect your family inside your own home against two thugs with baseball bats.

Re:Foreign competitors

[orcrist]

the french dont need the tomahawk.

Still makes my point that the Exocet is a pretty stupid example of something that would make a carrier visit "brief". Like I said you would need nukes and of the ones you link to only the ASMP SRAM seems to be a tactical nuke (Ballistic missiles against a carrier sitting off your coast?). Its range of 250 km. is not much better as far as an aircraft carrier goes. It still needs to close to within range against a screen of hostile fighters, and counter-missiles fired from the various cruisers deployed around the carrier.

Look, this is just an intellectual exercise since we are still talking about 2 countries which after all the rhetoric, etc. are *allies*. Nevertheless, a carrier group is a very tough nut to crack, and no amount of links to single weapons is even relevant in the discussion. Such a conflict would revolve around fleets and would be anything but 'brief' -- at least not on the side of the carrier group...

-chris

Re:Foreign competitors

[Wylfing]

[The Bush] vision is that the future should be controlled by big corporations with no mediation from the government or anyone else.

I agree with the spirit of this comment, but things would be substantially better off if Republicans actually left the economy alone instead of just saying they do. Republicans interfere with the economy just as much as anyone else, only their interference comes in the form of government protections for established big players. The big guys would not be nearly so big if Republicans stayed out of it.

Re:Foreign competitors

[Anonymous Coward]

See also my previous reply:

An aircraft carrier off the coast of France would probably need to be in the English Channel to reliably be able to present any kind of threat.

There's not much maneuvering space there. Along much of the length of the channel the fleet would certainly be within range of both air and surface launched exocets (as well as many rather less sophisticated weapons as well, I'm sure), whereby the French Navy probably would hardly even need to leave port!

My original point was more that Charles Krauthammer probably hadn't really thought such a scenario all the way through. Sure, it *sounds* like a cool idea, until you look at the actual situation on the ground.

Re:Foreign competitors

[cluckshot]

I am not being trite when I say read the US Bill of Rights. This is not to say that the EU is not substantially improved from the past, nor to disrespect their current condition. It is also not ignorant of the Domestic Disregard given to the Bill of Rights.

To be painfully accurate there are some areas the EU may actually be paving the way and US Citizens should not be to arrogant. However; the USA has substantial advantages in the Ownership of Property, rights to political dissent and the rights to defend ones rights. These involve a vast improvement in the rights to relief from problems with the government via a court system that despite all its flaws is orders of magnitude more likely to answer to the interests of ordinary people when they dispute with the strong and powerful than in EU or elsewhere.

There is also a very substantial issue of FACT regards the stated government and the delivery. In the USA most people take for granted that the Police and Courts actually will deal with problems and redress without bribery. This is substantially flawed in its delivery even in the EU in comparison.

The American complaints against a progressively declining state of personal liberty are valid. The EU remarks on current progress are valid. The status of fact is a wide seperation in delivery vs expectations. EU types have been raised under a system where they delt with a thousand years of entrenched bureaucracy with its systematic and embedded corruption at a level beyond any American Imagination. They see some improvements in this and have imagined that they are equal or better than the USA which is clearly trending towards the EU condition. In individual cases they may actually be better but taken as a whole, the EU Condition is so intolerably worse than the US condition that Americans would meet it with Firearms if it were suddenly imposed on them.

Much of the current Economic troubles in the USA and Social Discord are the result of this trend towards EU solutions and methods.

You asked for a explanation. You got it! In synopsis, the EU is a Bureacratic Super State where Citizens have no particular rights except those granted by PERMIT. The Brussels system will further dominate the area by an Oligarchy and the delivery of individual freedom in the EU is questionable at best in FACT. The US System is degrading towards the EU model. Regards "social" issues the EU is a socialist mecca. Some personal demands they make in exchange for their rights include the loss of freedom to change jobs easily in exchange for the protection of employment, better severance pay, and a more assured retirement.

This is not to say that they are worse or better in these areas. This illustrates the complete NON-Parity of the comparison. Imagine you not being able to quit your job today unless you want to pay your employer. Imagine having 5 weeks of vacation paid a year vs none or just 2 weeks. Imagine your employer required to pay benefits such as Health Care. Some may read this as EU better and US worse. Some may see it US Better.

Re:Foreign competitors

[JuggleGeek]

The US parking an aircraft carrier off France wouldn't intimidate them particularly. Not when the French could take out washington tomorrow.

Not if they wanted to survive, they couldn't.

Re:Foreign competitors

[RogerWilco]

The American Servicemembers Protection Act of 2002 was nice,
it authorises an invasion of my country (The Netherlands) if an USA soldier is ever brought to the International Court in The Hague.
I do not understand that our government could support Mr. Bush after that, but they beleived the WMD lie.

Re:Foreign competitors

[Sukh]

Actually you're wrong. Any citizen of an EU state automatically has EU Citizenship. This was introduced as a legal concept in the Maastricht treaty (1992).

Re:Foreign competitors

[cluckshot]

Mod the Parent UP!

Campaign Finance Reform should come in the following solutions.

Only Real Persons who are "Qualified Electors" in the district of an election should be allowed to give to campaigns.

All Contrabutions of any size should be disclosed.

Citizens should be allowed to bring charges for violations and have them prosecuted.

Heavy fines for those giving and those knowingly receiving violations should occur. If in office, IMMEDIATE REMOVAL should also apply and the prosecution here should be totally by Civilian Effort.

The penalty for any foreign national giving to a US Election should be DEATH. In addition this should apply to any US candidate or office holder knowingly taking the money or to their assistant who knowingly takes the money from a foreign person or Corporation!

There is no substitute for Citizenship here either. No person should be a Qualified Elector unless they reside in the district of the election and are a taxpayer in the district. If you don't pay the bills you should not decide how the money is spent. It is beyond irresponsible to allow parties to vote who cannot or do not support the system.

Finally the USA Citizens had better take seriously the fact that they need to quit listening to slick media campaigns and choosing parties because "They can win." They need to support the parties who support and care about their country.

Remember Membership is India PAC or the India Caucus is TREASON. It would apply to any party elected to US office who sells his representation to another nation. These are our Benedict Arnold Congressmen and Senators.

Re:Foreign competitors

[NumbThumb]

depends on what you mean be "clone". Copyright does not protect algorithems or look and feel. So copyright does not prevent anyone from creating a looalike and workalike, which is usually meant by the term "clone" (like, for example, XMMS is a clone of WinAmp). All copyright does is to prevent you from copying and reusing source code (if you have access to it, that is).

Re:Foreign competitors

[Jackie_Chan_Fan]

I definatly agree with this. Our country America has become the land of the free for the wealthy, and the land of exploitation for the poor. Then again when has this not been the case? Its simply become worse over the years. There are no single wager earner families anymore that make less than $150,000 a year. Education is complete shit by design. Only the wealthy can afford an education that will take them anywhere... and oddly enough they really dont need it, because "daddy" will get them in to yale, and then he can become president after being a drunken crack addict fuck up until the age of 40, until he discovers god, and imposes it on the rest of us in the name of freedom and patriotism. Hail Europe. They take so much shit in this country from our selfish politicians who are blinded by the dollars of corperations that cover their eyes. People need a quality life experience. We only get 70 years if we're lucky. Why the fuck cant we make this world betteer?? ITS NOT FUCKING PROFITABLE. How utterly disgusting.

Re:Foreign competitors

[E_elven]

I see. You've seen lots of KKK, Nazi and Communist rhetoric lately? I seem to recall that US specifically suppresses certain groups from voicing their opinion. I seem to recall that some highschoolers were interrogated by the FBI because of anti-Bush art? I seem to recall McCarthy had a thing about communists? I seem to recall that there are 'national security' issues that can't be talked about? I seem to recall an initiative banning gays from marrying -or indeed being together at all in some cases.

It's not the law, it's how it's enforced. In this respect, most of the EU countries are ahead of the US in civil liberties.

Re:Foreign competitors

[killjoe]

You are thinking about it all wrong.

When you buy coke you are helping america. Maybe some of the money you pay goes to support local companies but some goes to the US. Aren't there european soda makers? Why not drink one of those and have no money coming to the US.

Trust me a european boycott of american products will have a HUGE impact on US foreign policy.

Re:Foreign competitors

[killjoe]

You'd be shocked at the value of an organized and vocal boycott. It's great that you have a trade surplus but you have to let the US know why. A boycott of coke and pepsi and nike and holywood would make GW sit up and pay attention. He doesn't give a shit about your protests but he cares if the CEO of pepsi calls him up and complains that they are losing money.

Re:Foreign competitors

[Anonymous Coward]

It's also oftently forgotten that the US isn't the only nation capable of making scarily quiet and effective subs. I remember some years back that in a wargames practise a dutch sub manage to get past a US carrier groups screen and pretty much sink half the task force or more, including the carrier. I'm sure many lessons were learnt from that though, so it might not be something that could be reproduced these days anymore, still you shouldn't underestimate other navies, expecially if your operating near to there ports.

Re:Foreign competitors

[Short Circuit]

I seem to recall that US specifically suppresses certain groups from voicing their opinion.

That's a periodic phenomenon. Any time the public can be emotionally driven to support their government, it happens. The difference this time is that there's a major media distraction away from what's happening in our own country. Everyone wants to know what's going on in Iraq.

It happened during WWII (Japanese intermnent), it happened during the Red Scare(McCarthy), and it's happened as a result of the War on Terror(Nothing major that's gained the attention of the television networks yet, but once we're out of Iraq we'll probably start seeing examples.). It'll die down again.

Re:Foreign competitors

[pommiekiwifruit]

I suggest just off the coast of St. Pierre and Miquelon. It's closer (next to Newfoundland) and less likely to have decent shore defenses!

Re:Foreign competitors

[ph1ll]

Also, remember, that so-called American companies can be partly (mostly?) owned by foreigners

"At year-end 2001, the gap between the assets abroad owned by Americans and foreign-owned assets in the US reached $2.31 trillion...

Put another way, the US debtor balance amounts to 22.6 percent of the nation's gross domestic product"

http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0809/p02s01-usec.htm

Re:Foreign competitors

[E_elven]

Ergo, there is no freedom of speech, only that which the current enforcers allow. QED.

Re:Foreign competitors

[Akimotos]

Yeah, that would be a great move, force the Europeans into hating America too .. you know what will happen? Europe will stop transporting American stuff around the globe (check who is doing logistics on Pepsi, Coke, Levi's, Nike and plenty of other things).... come on....

Re:Foreign competitors

[John Betonschaar]

Read Pierre Honeyman's blurb to find out why.

Yeah, that surely convinced me...

That's a biblical reference. This is where you're supposed to reject all of my arguments entirely because I referenced the Bible.

Yeah, and Jesus died for our sins... Not really an argument, is it?

Right, because everybody sane knows that only looneys keep and use firearms.

That's quite some reverse-logic you've got there. It takes only *one* looney to shoot somebody, or to shoot multiple, for example like the school shootings that happen every now and then in your beautiful country.

Since you think guns should be banned because people could ``possibly use it'' to shoot other people, I think Windex should be banned because children might drink it, pencils should be banned because people might possibly poke each other's eyes out, computers should be banned because they do cause RSI

Pencils and Windex are not made to kill, but guns are. I don't see people killed by pencils or computers in the newspapers every day, you do?? Don't you think the way you teach your children they have the 'right' to bear arms might affect the way they think about these things? How many people are killed by accidents with guns? Do you have any idea how many people would not have been killed if it was not so fucking easy for anyone, even 12-year olds, to get a gun and use it for something they're going to regret later??

CRTs should be banned because they might cause cancer

If this would be true and proven, CRT's would already be banned. ...after two thugs with baseball bats broke into your house, beat the shit out of you, raped your wife, and killed your children, all because you didn't have a way to protect your family inside your own home against two thugs with baseball bats.

That says more about your 'society' than the need to have guns around. Aside from that this could just as well happen if you do have a gun in the house.

You're just being ignorant...

Re:Foreign competitors

[IgnoramusMaximus]

The penalty for any foreign national giving to a US Election should be DEATH

Although I am a Canadian, I agree except that the penalty should be to the taker not to the giver. Firstly, the giver is only doing his duty as a national of the foreign nation trying to make his nation's plight better. It is the slimey politician taking the bribe that is commiting treason. One can expell the foreigner and make him persona non grata so he never comes back, you can give shit to that nations ambassador, raise hell in the media and maybe even impose economic penalties, but killing that person would be a duplicitous, hypocritical act, since some patriotic citizens of the USA are engaged in similiar activities abroad.

Remember Membership is India PAC or the India Caucus is TREASON

Quite right, but given the amount of harm a PAC can cause to America's own interests and the world in general, the Israeli PAC should be then considered a treason to the third power. For all its efforts, India has managed to syphon some jobs out of you, yet the Israelis receive tens of billions of dollars annually, get you suckered into wars that cost you trillions literally not to mention hundreds of dead and result in your international standing to be surpassed by the contents of a septic tank.

Re:Foreign competitors

[Drooling Iguana]

You asked for a explanation. You got it! In synopsis, the EU is a Bureacratic Super State where Citizens have no particular rights except those granted by PERMIT. The Brussels system will further dominate the area by an Oligarchy and the delivery of individual freedom in the EU is questionable at best in FACT. The US System is degrading towards the EU model. Regards "social" issues the EU is a socialist mecca. Some personal demands they make in exchange for their rights include the loss of freedom to change jobs easily in exchange for the protection of employment, better severance pay, and a more assured retirement.

Actually, the grandparent asked for examples, not just an endless string of assertions without anything to back them up. Writing "FACT" in all caps does not constitute evidence.

Re:Foreign competitors

[bgs4]

I sort of agree (not sure about the DEATH part), but I think something also needs to be done about lobbysists: it should be illegal to pay someone to speak to a government representative on your behalf (or on behalf of your company). That is, you are welcome to lobby the government, but not if you are being paid to do it.

If the government wants to hear industry's take on a certain issue, it should be up to the government to invite an industry representative, and to pay for all hotel and travel costs.

Re:Foreign competitors

[ChrisMaple]

What's so great about the US nowadays? We've demonstrated that our voting system has failed, that our leadership hates gays, muslims, and does nothing to protect middle america's jobs while all the fatcats get fatter by outsourcing anything and everything they can because they lost their sense of nationalism over a few dollars....All it brought together were the straight, old white people out in the boonies...

So your solution is a dictatorship run by poor gay black babyish city-dwellers who buy only homemade goods from their neighbors.

Re:Foreign competitors

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure, which is why a US carrier was sunk *three* times in succession by the Royal Navy in exercises a few years back (Indian Ocean, I think). The British carrier involved was a fraction of the size and firepower of the US one. The US carrier captain was sent home, presumably to go on some more training... perhaps he could come here where we have a good reputation for training soldiers-that-think.

You know what they say about the US Military? 'All the Gear, but No Idea' - a bit harsh on those showing some real personal courage on the streets in Baghdad, perhaps, but as 9-11 so cruelly showed, the new enemies are not the ones you can lock onto with your super-duper-magic radar and blow to bits in 37 creative ways.

Re:Foreign competitors

[AmPz]

No surface ship is getting within even 200 km. of that carrier let alone 65 km.
Since the break-up of the USSR there is no one (or not even everyone together) who can challenge the U.S. on the seas. Period.

Do I sense some overconfidence in the superiority of the US navy?
Getting close to the carrier? No problemo. We simply use the Swedish stealth corvette "Visby". It is one of the stealtiest ships out there. Pictures and specifications
Aside from "Visby", there are numurous other ships with varying degree of stealth technology within EU.
You will never know what hit you :-)

Re:Foreign competitors

[Alsee]

Sometimes a really big rock is all you need.

Exactly. More of that military funding should obviously be moved over to NASA.

Chuckle.

-

Re:Foreign competitors

[Doomdark]

However; the USA has substantial advantages in the Ownership of Property, rights to political dissent and the rights to defend ones rights.

The only entities in USA that have significantly better rights of ownership are corporations -- they are not considered first-class entities (as citizens are) in most european countries. But as to "defend ones rights", I assume you refer to gun ownership. Most europeans would consider these dubious "rights" indeed; not something that add to general well-being, or overall liberties of population. But due to vastly different culture, many Americans do think it is. Just like most europeans think death penalty and extensive health-care are serious "rights" issues, whereas most americans do not (that is, everyone is entitled to complete health-care, independent of their financial status; likewise, that government has no right to kill its citizens that are in its custody).

In the USA most people take for granted that the Police and Courts actually will deal with problems and redress without bribery.

This is just plain wrong: to claim that (western) european countries are all (significantly) more corrupt than USA. Check out latest evaluations by economic organizations (OECD), and you will find out that some european countries (scandinavian, especially) are even less corrupt than USA (which is fairly clean, overall, compared to most world countries), whereas some (southern europe, France), are somewhat more corrupt (somewhat debatable; some cultural things may or may not be considered related to corruption).

EU types have been raised under a system where they delt with a thousand years of entrenched bureaucracy with its systematic and embedded corruption at a level beyond any American Imagination.

Uh, no. Do NOT lump all EU countries along with the ones with most Byzantine and corruption-prone bureaucracies. You are probably thinking worst side of French bureaucratic system. But that's as far from protestantic countries (anglo-saxons, scandinavians), if not more, than from US standards. And even then it's insulting (intellectually and otherwise) to imply there's systematic full-scale corruption in even most problematic of countries.

EU itself, as an organization, is bureaucratic; and has potential to become significantly (more) corrupt. But it has no powers comparable to US federal government, and hopefully never will.

Finally, a minor nitpicking:

Imagine you not being able to quit your job today unless you want to pay your employer.

This would never happen in any european country I know of. True, employee is to give advance notice, just as employer, albeit with much shorter advance (in general, 1 month). However, employer has no means to prevent you from leaving the same day. You will just obviously burn the bridges there, and won't be paid salary for the remaining time you were supposed to be working. That's hardly any different from US standards. Same is not true for employers; depending on country and your employment status, they have to give 1 to 6 months notice for non-temporary workers.

Re:Foreign competitors

[orcrist]

Yeah. sure. maybe. Look I'm open to the idea that it's a really bad-ass ship, but I haven't heard anyone seriously suggest that the E.U. has a stronger naval presence than the U.S.

I admit my information is a good 10 years out of date, but I just remember running training exercises on a 25-year-old boomer (that's a fat pig of a missile sub, not a fast-attack) and running circles around 3 surface ships including one which was specialized for ASW. I mean a submarine has an immense advantage just by being underwater. The entire acoustic characteristics of most areas of the oceans favor those who are underwater; many places will literally refract most sound down to the depth where subs like to hang out meaning the sub's own sound is likewise staying down there. There are only 2 ways for ships to listen below the layer:
1. Drop a buoy of some sort. That involves flying a plane all over the place mining the ocean with those things and -- unless they already have a contact -- is very hit and miss.
2. Trail a hydrophone down deep via a cable or telescoping arm of some sort. That requires going slow and/or is loud (from the water rushing over the protrusion).

So while your baby looks good on paper, I'd wait to see exercises with those things in action. I assume it would only ever be exercises anyways, though I've long stopped underestimating Bush's capacity for being a complete asshole :-(

As for overconfidence, I think you might be getting the kneejerk reaction (common in Europe for example) that I'm just another American who thinks the U.S does no wrong or somesuch. Believe me I know there many countries who do many things better than the U.S. Making peace, for example. Eliminating the death penalty, for another. Universal health coverage is my favorite (I live in Germany, and to you Germans who complain all the time, like about the new 10 Euro 'Praxisgebühr': You don't appreciate how good you - and I - have it).
But... one thing the U.S. is damn good at is making war. This is not pride, or overconfidence. It's observation. If there's a new way to kill people, I'm sure my compatriots will quickly become quite expert at it :-/

-chris

Re:Foreign competitors

[orcrist]

Still: fleets, right? Not some super weapon, but superior deployment of forces by the British captain no doubt. I'm not saying it can't happen, just not because of the 'all-powerful' Exocet or the like. I'd be interested in a link, but since you're AC you won't see my reply probably. I do believe you, I'd just like to read the story out of curiosity.

Still pathetic, if there were any subs involved... nah, probably just those damn skimmers ;-)

-chris

Re:Foreign competitors

[orcrist]

Sometimes a really big rock is all you need.

Exactly. More of that military funding should obviously be moved over to NASA.

Hmmmmm... Niven and Pournelle reference? :-)

-chris

Re:Foreign competitors

[spiritraveller]

Whatever happened to the great uniter?

Nothing ever happened to it, it was just a lie.

Any argument one can use against the Clinton administration (lack of disclosure, too much rhetoric) can be multiplied 10x with this administration.

Clinton had faults... but he also had one thing that this president does not: a brain.

We can force Microsoft to start operating fairly or ignore their practices until their business will be fined into financial hell in Europe and some German company takes over the desktop share (with a Linux/FreeBSD distro).

German company? Who could you be thinking of? SUSE/Novell? Oh! wait...

Re:Foreign competitors

[lee7guy]

I've never killed anyone.

I think he spoke of gun related deaths i America in general, not the ones caused by you specifically.

In that society, police aren't needed either. Also in that society, the bears eat everyone because people can't outrun bears.

No, they (bears) would still be killed by people armed with pencils.

Seriously, few guns sold in America are bought with intent of protecting yourself or loved ones against wild animals. (most firearms sold are not that effective against a 300 pound bear)

Re:Foreign competitors

[lee7guy]

That scenerio could happen anywhere. In America, we the people believe we should have the right to arm ourselves against the possibility of it happening.

If that scenario happened here where I live, I would call the police. Then I would tell the intruders the police have been called, which in turn likely would lead to them running off. Last time I called the police to report a violent crime (mugging), they were at the scene within 5 minutes and managed to arrest the criminal.

Don't you have a police force where you live?

Re:Foreign competitors

[the_meager]

When the European Union harmonizes completely (if it ever does), you'll see how unsuccessful the smaller units become when they're not longer competing against each other. Competition drives economies and countries. The European Union is merely a foolish method of countering the United States. The Soviet Union was bigger than the European Union, and even they couldn't do it (lack of competition.) So, by all means, go the European Union. I'll stay in America and enjoy my "private healthcare". It'll return to the high quality efficiency of the private sector once again). Concerning the software patents, I would just like to point out that in a free market capitalist society, current copyright laws and especially DMCA and Intellectual Property laws would be considered bullshit.

Re:Foreign competitors

[newhoggy]

If the USA applies pressure on France it will be certain that they vote the other way.

If the USA had any intelligence, they'd pressure France to reject software patents.

Re:Foreign competitors

[newhoggy]

Imagine what would happen to the OPEC countries if the US stopped buying their oil...

I imagine they will finally know what it is like to have peace. The Dark Side of Natural Resources

Re:Foreign competitors

[TheNetAvenger]

Some would argue that marriage is designed solely for procreation, and includes certain incentives to facilitate that. Personally, I don't see marriage as having anything to do with love (certainly love can exist outside marriage); why do people need the state to acknowledge their love for each other?


Read This

Maybe you should actually do some fact checking before you make up your mind about something based on 'What other people think or have told you to think'.

Even if you still disagree, at least you won't be arguing a point just from ignorance.

Re:Foreign competitors

[Alsee]

the USA has substantial advantages in the Ownership of Property

Considering the general subject here is software patents, are you are you reffering to Ownership (??capitalized??) of "Intellectual Property"?

Yeah, the US has absolutely mindboggling "advantages" in the Ownership of Intellectual Property. The US issues patents on software, granting Ownership of math. (My) Dumbass government.

-

Re:Foreign competitors

[KamuSan]

Funny thing is that the US wouldn't exist without French help. Before France was a republic, a lot of French would-be republicans went to the US to make their ideals come true here and fight the British.

Re:Foreign competitors

[alex_tibbles]

"that our leadership hates ... muslims

"Half the time people insinuate that Bush is in bed with the Saudis (see Fahrenheit 911) and the other half of the time they insinuate that he hates the Muslims."

Bush hates *poor people*. The Saudi Royal family are rich, so Bush loves them.

Re:Foreign competitors

[2sheds]

It's probably just as well the French Navy would be operating close to home - does the Charles de Gaulle actually get to leave port these days?!

Re:Foreign competitors

[John Betonschaar]

Very nice to see this modded to Troll, and all other insightful comments in this thread to 0. Must be a lot of americans around here.

And yes, please mod this to redundant...

Re:Foreign competitors

[John Betonschaar]

Eliminating firearms isn't going to eliminate death-by-stupidity, and it would have several other dire disadvantages as well.

You don't know that, and you don't have any proof of it. Where I live (the Netherlands) no-one carries guns except the police and the army (and its the same in the rest of Europe, for that matter), and here there are significantly less people killed by guns, be it by accident or on purpose. So everybody walking around with guns does not seem to add to public safety in general. And please don't try to only apply the way you use your gun to everybody else...

I just don't get how you can keep denying the fact that people are killed by your nice gun laws every day, just because you feel that its some kind of 'basic right' to carry guns, a right that stems from the society as it was in the 18th century or something, where it might have been a good idea at the time...

Re:Foreign competitors

[Sinterklaas]

I am not being trite when I say read the US Bill of Rights.

Why? It's not like it's being respected by lawmakers.

the USA has substantial advantages in the Ownership of Property

Except that the police can just confiscate your property and you have to sue (if you still have enough money left to do so) to get it back. In the majority of seizures, the people whose property gets taken do not even get charged with a crime. Here is a good essay on this issue. Some cases where money was taken without good grounds. And no, they can't do this where I live.

rights to political dissent

A US kid got suspended for wearing a T-shirt with "Anarchy." The government actively tries to prevent people from advertising messages that go against government policy. An anti-war community organization was infiltrated by the police.

These involve a vast improvement in the rights to relief from problems with the government via a court system that despite all its flaws is orders of magnitude more likely to answer to the interests of ordinary people when they dispute with the strong and powerful than in EU or elsewhere.

The US legal system has incarcerated an extremely large part of its population. Many of those are victim of the war on drugs. However, while drug use is no lower among caucasians, three quarter of the people convicted for these crimes are black or latino. The same goes for the death penalty. Black & latino see the needle far more than caucasians. In short, your legal system certainly seems to take it out on the lower class.

As for Europe trodding on the ordinary man, do you have any evidence to back that up? Because I don't see too much of that happening here.

In the USA most people take for granted that the Police and Courts actually will deal with problems and redress without bribery.

I never had to bribe the police or the courts. What parts of the EU are you talking about? Nigeria?

EU types have been raised under a system where they delt with a thousand years of entrenched bureaucracy with its systematic and embedded corruption at a level beyond any American Imagination.

In my country (The Netherlands), 10% of the workers are government employees. In the US, it is 14%. 'Nough said.

As for corruption and bribery: according to the 2003 Corruption Perceptions Index, my EU country is ranked 7th (with a 8.9/10). The US is ranked 18 (with a 7.5/10). The Bribe Payers Index 2002 ranked The Netherlands 6th (with a 7.8/10), while the US was ranked 13th (with a 5.3/10).

Much of the current Economic troubles in the USA and Social Discord are the result of this trend towards EU solutions and methods.

An important reason for social discord in the US seems to be that a small part of the population is screwing the rest. The only reason why many people have to work two jobs, while others have more money than they can spend in two lives, is because they believe the bullshit of "what is good for business is good for you."

In synopsis, the EU is a Bureacratic Super State where Citizens have no particular rights except those granted by PERMIT.

Do you know that the Union has a really low number of bureaucrats (~30.000) and that the nations have very strong control over what the Union does? NO, of COURSE you DIDN'T know, did you? Shouting hard is much easier than providing proof, isn't it?

The Brussels system will further dominate the area by an Oligarchy and the delivery of individual freedom in

Re:Foreign competitors

[txviking]

Just for your information.

1) I am not an American, also I wish I would be.

2) I have lived a long time in the USA and have been able to see and feel the differences, there I have not only I theoretical background.

3) In the EU the principle is what serves the state. The proposed EU constitution does not even talk about the people, but about the EU being a legal person !!! It is really a fundmental difference in mentality.

4) In the USA people openly discuss the Patriot Act. In the EU such measure a re just taken, no discussion about it at all.

5) In the EU there are bad violations of civil rights, i.e. the arrests and imprisonments and for weeks and torture of peaceful demonstrators during the G8 in Genua, Italy. Nobody talks about it. A lot of people talk about such violations happening under US control.

Nothing is perfect in this world, however the USA is far more leaning towards individual rights, while Europe is far more based on the restriction of individual rights for a "common purpose". That is just a fact.

Re:Foreign competitors

[zuesse]

Thank you...

We have two voting systems in this country. The original is broken.

Gore might have had the popular vote, but the electoral college is there for a reason; whether that reason is valid, of course, is up for debate.

In a state where little brother is governer?

This is obvious corruption. But enough of that. I am an American and I have watched the selling of America for 43 years. My conclusion is that "we get what we pay for." If we don't vote - and only 16 percent of us do - then WE the people are not on control. But then this is, so far, only about the system that's broken...

As we see here on /. there is a greate deal of mis-guided patriotism. We claim that "true" americans buy only US products and as soon as we log out we run to WAL Mart to buy Chinese products. This would be the second voting system and the one with the most potential. Voting with dollars works. Just look at the change in our food supply brought on by Atkins. It changed because people bought and it changed fast. The market runs not just america but the entire world and power will always side with the money. We can argue our ideals but, unless we start dealing with what is, we as the people of the US or EU will continue to be subjegated by those who do.

Our corperations got the way they are because we kept buying/voting.

I am not anti-american. I love my country and her people. I do fear that they have lost sight of their true enemy - the intoxication brought on by satisfied greed.

Outsourcing is not a clear cut issue.

To qoute another posting:"tough, adapt or die." Jobs get "outsourced" overseas because nobody's doing that job here or they're charging too much.

Try not buying that companies service anymore.( dollar voting)

As an European, I'd like to point out that Europe and the whole world would have been a lot more fucked up if it wasn't for the Americans.

Thank you. My country is feeling a bit ill of late but we're working on it. One of our forefathers put it quite well - Patrick Henry I think - when he said this: "My country right or wrong. When right to keep her right, when wrong to put her right, but my country right or wrong"

Re:Foreign competitors

[Syberghost]

Has anybody ever successfully engaged a real carrier with an Exocet? With the exception of tiny frigates hastilly converted into temporary carriers, I believe every such attempt has been a failure, and that's against far less capable navies than the US Navy.

Any US Carrier Task Force is, by itself, the most powerful navy in the world other than ours.

Re:Foreign competitors

[Guppy06]

"Then I would tell the intruders the police have been called, which in turn likely would lead to them running off."

Or it would result in you and/or members of your family being held hostage. Maybe, maybe not, but are you willing to make that gamble?

"Last time I called the police to report a violent crime (mugging), they were at the scene within 5 minutes and managed to arrest the criminal."

It would appear that you are in the minority:

Yet does dialing 911 actually protect crime victims? Researchers found that less than 5 percent of all calls dispatched to police are made quickly enough for officers to stop a crime or arrest a suspect. The 911 bottom line: "cases in which 911 technology makes a substantial difference in the outcome of criminal events are extraordinarily rare."

They've got sources, too, by the way.

"Don't you have a police force where you live?"

From the same link:

The District of Columbia's highest court spelled out plainly the "fundamental principle that a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any particular individual citizen."

And it's far from the only example of such a ruling. In many ways the police have no greater obligation to protect you than your average passer-by. At least in the US there's a greater chance of said passer-by being able to actually do something beyond just being a spectator.

Re:Foreign competitors

[txviking]

Just an example of interpretation of civil rights in Europe. Not regarding Germany, but the UK:

R v. Jordan [1967] CRIM LR 483 is a ruling that failed to render the Race Relation Act 1965 invalid on claims that it limits freddom of speech.

The reasoning was that in the UK there is no superior laws recognised protecting freedom of speech.

This stands in strict contrast to the Ammendment I of the US Constitution.

First Post!

[thewldisntenuff]

Our neighbors across the pond might actually have a good idea for once :) ...

If the WIPO can get a standard software patent system across both sides (US and Euro), preferrably like the Europeans, we might not be reading Slashdot headlines every morning that read "Apple Patents the English Language!", etc. The US Patent system is dated, and needs change, especially when such patents can be made and there is such a high backlog of patents...Time shall tell, but this may be the first step in getting software/IP patents sorted out

Re:First Post!

[cshark]

If this goes through, and is successful in Europe, I would imagine that it would only be a matter of time before the US conforms to a similar system. That would certainly make my life easier. Europeans aren't so bad. Many of the things they're doing in modern Europe are downright sensible. Socialized medicine for example. But that's a subject for another post. Glad to see it's not the whole world that gone mad. Just us crazy Americans...

Re:First Post!

[Sv1ad]

Doubtful when the WIPO seems to share a common set of values with the WTO. WIPO also supports the TRIPS Agreement, something which seems to me to be a vehicle for propping up dated systems like US patent law. That said, I hope that this latest development in EU patent law will make the international entities see that not everything is in favour of the US approach and some sort of compromise between the larger trading blocks is going to be essential in the development of international standards for intellectual property.

Re:First Post!

[toby]

Our neighbors across the pond might actually have a good idea for once :) ...

That's rich, since the bad ideas are all coming from your side.

Re:First Post!

[Hannes Eriksson]

Well, if something becomes an international standard, proves successful in Europe "a matter of time before the US conforms to a similar system" could well mean "decades", and the "similar system" could as well be downright similar. Like having inches, feet, yards and gallons when almost the rest of the world uses the internationally standardized SI system. But that is the topic of another discussion.

Re:First Post!

[IgnoramusMaximus]

Canadian, we rely on you to invent and produce medicines so we can loot them

You Sir, are a despicable bottomfeeding greedmonkey who believes that if he cannot get ahead of everybody else in something, then that something is communist, evil and a work of Satan. If you like the US style medical system so greatly, do not let the door hit on your way down South.

Also for your information, Canada has many research facilities and I am personally involved with companies manufacturing unique pharmaceutical products which are being exported to the USA. There is great profit to be made since the drugs sell at insane prices down there. So much for looting. The only one who wants to loot things here is you. You, in your abysmal arrogance, believe that you are special and will be forever able to earn enough income to guarantee yourself superior medical care. All of it possible only because generations of Canadians through their common effort have built a place for you to piss about in. Yet you, like any right-wing asshole out there, will certainly take exclusive credit for everything good that happens to you claiming that its a result of your hard work. That is why you consider capitalism a religion. Never you mind that Canada is as capitalist as it is reasonable to be. The purpose of the entire excercise is to make life for all Canadians better and not just to make a few whiney jerks into millionaires at the expense of everybody else.

Well, my wish for you is that you go to the USA, denounce Canadian citizenship (because we are the communist paradise), get in an accident, be unable to work and your medical costs exceed 10 times your insurance coverage. I hear dying of a curable illness because you cannot afford the cure sucks. Have fun. That is what you deserve.

Re:First Post!

[JaredOfEuropa]

Our neighbors across the pond might actually have a good idea for once :) ...

Seems our neighbors are getting more and more of a clue these days, on other matters as well. Germany seems to have some decent politicians.

In contrast, the Netherlands is still planning to vote for the US-style patent laws. I've heard no debate or news coverage whatsoever on the subject... they probably will vote for it just because that git Bolkestein is 'our' Euro-commissioner.

Re:First Post!

[CmdrGravy]

Where on earth do you weirdo's get this idea that Europe is some kind of "Socialist Paradise" ?

That's not to say that it would necessarily be a bad thing if it was a socialist paradise.

A national health service ran by the government to help the public makes a lot more sense than a health service run by large companies in order to make money, if you can't see that then you're an idiot.

Re:First Post!

[ScrewMaster]

Sure. And like the majority of programs run by the government (ANY government), it will be staffed by an efficient, caring bureaucracy, with a sincere desire to provide the best possible service for all. Get real. Governments (ALL governments) are in the business of TAKING money from their subjects. They vary in the quality and quantity of services they provide for the amount of money they take, but expecting them to be efficient about it is unreasonable and goes completely against our nature and the whole of human history.

One example of where this can work is the way the United States telephone system was originally set up. I'm not referring the the modern deregulated mess we're living with now. But Congress recognized, nearly a century ago, that the government was simply not the best institution to develop, deploy, maintain and improve a national telecommunications system. So a private corporation was chartered to do the actual work, but was heavily regulated by the government to prevent the corporate abuses of which you speak. Furthermore, strict performance standards were implemented, with stiff penalties for not meeting them. And whatever complaints you wish to lodge against AT&T and the old Bell System, the truth is that for a long, long time they provided reliable phone service to the entire country.

So, no, I don't agree that a purely governmental entity providing health care is the solution: I'm sorry but socialized medicine has its own share of problems even if those who live under such systems refuse to acknowledge them. The U.S. attempt at socialized medicine (the Medicare system) is so riddled with malfeasance and fraud that it is largely a waste of money.

And certainly the American private-insurance system isn't the way to go either. The reason that costs are so high for even basic care is because insurance companies have completely divorced the cost of medical care from our ability to pay for it: in any ordinary competitive private-sector marketplace you can only charge what the market will bear, if that, but when what the customer can pay bears no relation to what you can charge the normal negative feedback loop is broken. I might add that this same problem applies to socialized medicine: just substitute "government" and "tax revenue" for "insurance company" and "premium".

Well-run businesses can always provide services for less money than governmental institutions. If your funding is tax-based you have no incentive for efficiency, whereas if you have to compete and keep your customers happy you have a clear incentive to become more efficient: you become more profitable. And may I point out that while Canada's medical system may be "socialist" it is the private sector that actually provides the medical services and health care: the government just provides the requisite tax revenue. Ultimately, the solution to this will have to be a combination of both government and business, but I just don't see our current corrupt Congress providing the necessary insight and regulation.

Re:First Post!

[the_meager]

Capitalism: Help people and help yourself (in the long run, this helps even more people). Socalism: Help yourself by taking away from people and providing lesser service. Public Healthcare cannot compete to private healthcare. If you believe it does, go to Europe. You'll enjoy supply shortages and less than top notch care (after all, in a free market capitalist society -- not the current U.S. society -- your success depends upon your quality and price). If you think central planning works (required for centralized-socialized anything), you're an idiot. Learn some economics.

Re:First Post!

[cshark]

You obviously do not understand either capitalism or socialism. There are no true socialists anymore. There are no true capitalists anymore. Not even here in the US. Every successful government in the world is a mix of the two.

Re:First Post!

[cshark]

Ha!
Good one!
You're quite right.
I still say it's only a matter of time before we adopt the metric system.
But like patent reform here, I'm not holding my breath on it.

Hm, interesting...

[NeoChaosX]

And for the Americans who may ask "It's Europe; who give a flying fuck?", you need to know that the entire European Union is much larger than the United States, both in population and economy. And since Germany is the EU's largest member (and the article also points out efforts in France to block the software patent laws), this this could really heat up the war over software patents.

Re:Hm, interesting...

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe you're a bit behind the times. These days, it's the entire world that says "It's America, fuck them!"

Re:Hm, interesting...

[NeoChaosX]

Well sorry, it's that there's still a good amount of idiots in the US that thinks America can do no wrong and has no equal in this world, so we can do whatever we want and our laws/beliefs are good enough for the rest of the world. As for the last sentence, I do have this habit of stating the obvious when I can't think of something else to close a comment with.

Re:Hm, interesting...

[Anonymous Coward]

But who has more nukes and other WMDs?

That's really the only stat that matters in the american mindset.

I can already see the "EU patent laws are a bigger threat to our national security than Iraqi WMDs!" speaches. Think about it a second and you'll see it's even true!

Re:Hm, interesting...

[timeOday]

you need to know that the entire European Union is much larger than the United States, both in population and economy.

Population, yes, economny, no:

EU GDP: 11.50 trillion Pop: 454,900,000
US GDP: 10.40 trillion Pop: 290,343,000

Sure a trillion more is a lot in absolute terms, but it's only 10%.

Anyways in this case it might be more relavant to define a "software GDP," and for now I think the US would be #1 in that dept.

If the EU does resist software patents, it should be interesting to watch: will monetizing every little idea create more value for US companies and keep them in the lead, or will the increased freedom in the EU lead to products that integrate all the best features, leading to EU dominance? And does Microsoft even care, since they can easily buy any company with patents they want? Stay tuned...

Re:Hm, interesting...

[Scarblac]

10 new countries joined the EU on May 1. I remember hearing on the news back then that this made the EU economy bigger than that of the USA. I think your numbers are pre-expansion.

Re:Hm, interesting...

[arkhan_jg]

Europe's economy might only be 10% larger, but that's still a hefty chunk of change!

And the orginal posters point still stands; with a larger population AND economy than anywhere else in the world, the 25-nation EU bloc (especially the big 4, germany, france, the UK and italy) it's not some minor body to ignore when it comes to business or international law.

Add to that, if OPEC does switch to pricing oil in euros, as they've been threatening to do, it would cripple the US economy and skyrocket the euro-using nations in the EU.

Re:Hm, interesting...

[arkhan_jg]

The numbers are accurate - if you look closer, it's the EU that's 10% larger than the US. However, I agree the parents phrasing made me think at first that he was saying the US was larger.

Re:Hm, interesting...

[EugeneK]

But your parent's figures show that the EU's GDP was already bigger, pre-expansion. I think he was taking issue over the "much" (whether 11 trillion was "much" larger than 10 trillion, or just plain larger.)

Re:Hm, interesting...

[Talence]

I think it's safe to say that every country has its share of bigoted idiots. The good news is that we don't need to let friendships between people be defined by borders: you will always be able to find that 1 person in another country who is closer to your way of thinking than many of your co-citizens. Even a very bigoted American online "friend" of mine of the "let's nuke the world" type appeared to have more prolonged and bitter fights with other Americans than with others.

If Europe blocks the new patent laws, then as a European I am very very glad. However, I share the belief that the U.S. will also potentially benefit from it. It's good. Let common sense and reason prevail so that we all come out better.

Re:Hm, interesting...

[Talence]

You're not a E.U. citizen, are you? If you were, you would have seen that there's been a move towards electing right-wing parties into power over the past year(s).

As for natural resources, the U.S. is one of the biggest oil importers in the world. We're in the same boat.

Re:Hm, interesting...

[killjoe]

If they do then it's all just hot air. Until the rest of the world stops buying american products they will suffer under our "leadership".

People of the world. Get your shit together.

Do not buy american products.
Do not go to american movies.
Do not listen to american music.
Do not wear american clothing.

People in the US laugh at you every time they see a protestor wearing a pepsi shirt or eating a mcdonalds.

Re:Hm, interesting...

[TenPin22]

US National Debt = $7,147,545,929,573.40

Or if you like $7.1 Trillion.

http://www.publicdebt.treas.gov/opd/opdpenny.htm

Dunno what the EU National debt is but I don't think we run a $500 Billion trade deficit and the Euro isn't a reserve currency and you can't buy oil directly with Euros (yet).

Once you see the Euro as a reserve and oil currency you can kiss the US economy goodbye.

All that American debt testifies to the USA's free ticket to creating dollars out of thin air. As long as they aren't spent in the USA they can effectively pay interest in dollars on the dollars it borrows from Asia, Russia, Europe, China and the Middle East.

Once the rest of the world wakes up and starts trying to get out of the dollar for whatever reason (oil peak, war, terror attacks), allllll that cash will flow back to the USA and cause hyperinflation.

Yes, the USA is heading for complete financial collapse taking most of the world with it leaving the EU to emerge as the dominant economic world power.

If you look at history currency systems have only ever lasted about 30 years so we are long overdue for a complete crash since the USA stopped backing the dollar with gold in the 1970s.

It's been a fun last 50 years but the party is almost over !

Oh yeah and getting back to the topic, no software patents in Europe could be an incentive for companies to base in Europe only furtherering the USA's economic decline.

Re:Hm, interesting...

[BiggerIsBetter]

Anyways in this case it might be more relavant to define a "software GDP," and for now I think the US would be #1 in that dept.

There are some surprisingly large shops in Germany. SAP AG (the world's largest maker of business- management software) is one that immediately comes to mind. You may be right, but I'd like to see how the numbers actually stack up.

Re:Hm, interesting...

[Talence]

Your oil argument is silly: the oil that is imported is processed and used. After it's used, only pollutants remain, yet the entire industry and society that heavily depends on it still remains.

The reason it was obvious that you're not a E.U. citizen is because what you post sounds quite xenophobic and uninformed. Perhaps it helps to travel around a bit and see more of the world.

As for your share of land. Don't worry. No one is interested in moving into your parent's basement.

P.S. My policy is not to hide behind AC. If someone doesn't like what I post, so be it. I support my own words.

Re:Hm, interesting...

[rob_kg]

Who gives a shit,
Most europeans (atleast the countries that started the EU) never wanted no EU! I hate it.. it's not democratic at all.. it further enables outside pressue in EU countries, so even when you vote for some party there's more chance they will do things you don't like because of outside pressure.

Re:Hm, interesting...

[werdnapk]

Rephrase to...

Do not buy corporate funded american products.
Do not go to corporate funded american movies.
Do not listen to corporate funded american music.
Do not wear corporate funded american clothing.

Nothing wrong with supporting the little guy.

the corporation

Re:Hm, interesting...

[BiggerIsBetter]

Sounds easy doesn't it. Problem is that American companies are everywhere in some countries. If I own a telephone (mobile or landline) here in NZ, I'm sending $ to the US. If I watch TV, it's usually American programming. If I turn on the radio, it's probably American music (radio networks are pretty tight with the TV networks...). Even when you *think* you are dealing with a local company it may well be owned by a US company. Still, we can but try.

Re:Hm, interesting...

[Yokaze]

> People in the US laugh at you every time they see a protestor wearing a pepsi shirt or eating a mcdonalds.

I think this is the perfect picture showing the "You are either with us or against us","The world hates us"-attitude

Maybe they fail to remember that, very likely, the very same people demonstrating went to American embassies to express their condolences.
Maybe those people fail to realise that those protestors are against a certain administration representing a certain policy.
Maybe they are plain too dumb to understand that those demonstrators simply want to demonstrate their dissatifaction with the US administration policies but don't want the US economy to go down into a slump and see them be unemployed.

And what would the reaction of those American people be when the world would boycott their products? Wouldn't it even enstrengthen the "World hates us"-feeling?

Re:Hm, interesting...

[HyperCash]

"Do not wear american clothing."

All our clothes are made in China so that one shouldn't be all that difficult.

"People in the US laugh at you every time they see a protestor wearing a pepsi shirt or eating a mcdonalds."

When I see somebody eating a McDonalds, I don't laugh, I run. Fast. :) On a more serious note people in the US don't laugh because we never see that. We don't see the rest of the world and even if we did see them we wouldn't laugh because we saw somebody wearing a pepsi shirt. I don't get money from people buying pepsi and neither do most Americans.

--HC

--HC

Re:Hm, interesting...

[jrumney]

Add to that, if OPEC does switch to pricing oil in euros, as they've been threatening to do, it would cripple the US economy and skyrocket the euro-using nations in the EU.

Please explain what mystery economic process would cause this. It doesn't matter if I buy my oil in pesos or groats, it still costs the same, and the exchange rate is still 27 pesos to the groat no matter which currency I use.

Re:Hm, interesting...

[VanillaCoke420]

The world is not black and white. You can't act all the time with this simplistic binary thinking. "You don't like some of our foreign policies? Well then you're not allowed to like anything that we do!". Eh, yeah that's smart. Why would your music get any worse just because some of the things your president does aren't all good? Why would the entertainment value of your movies get worse? Why do I have to make the choice of either hating you all for everything you do, or to love you all for everything you do?

Re:Hm, interesting...

[Fafner]

You're not a E.U. citizen, are you? If you were, you would have seen that there's been a move towards electing right-wing parties into power over the past year(s).

Sure? It seems to fluctuate from where I look:

• Spain has just elected a leftish govnerment.
• France has a right-wing government, but this looks like it could change at the next election.
• Blair's New Labour may be more to the left than his opposition, but if he looses the next election it is because of his support of the american war in iraq and not because of left/right-wing issues.
• Germany; that is a tricky one. Schröder is in trouble and might loose to the right winged CDU.
• Italy; Berlusconi (sp?) this I simply do not understand. That man is a disgrace. It seems to me that Italy has a problem with its version of democracy and the left vs. right issue is renderered irrelevant because of it.
• The new countries: I'm so uninformed about those. I need to understand them better but I would guess that they are a mix of different oppions as well.

Then there are all the small countries, my own Denmark among them. Some are right-winged, some ar e not. I don't think you can claim there is a general trend against the right. Local ciecumstances play a large role in any country's election.

Re:Hm, interesting...

[flossie]

Please explain what mystery economic process would cause this. It doesn't matter if I buy my oil in pesos or groats, it still costs the same, and the exchange rate is still 27 pesos to the groat no matter which currency I use.

The mysterious process that would cause the US economy to collapse is the change in exchange rates. While US dollars are the reserve currency in which oil is traded, all nations need to ensure that they have a fistful of dollars in reserve with which they can buy oil. This means that the US treasury can print and spend dollars and can get goods in return while being confident that most of these dollars are safely tied up in foreign national banks and will not be "cashed in" against the US reserves. In effect the US has literally been able to print money since the gold standard was abolished.

If Euros become the new reserve currency, all of a sudden there will be a whole lot of dollars used to pay off any trade balances with the US. Instead of getting goods in return for paper, the US will start to get paper in return for goods. The final effect will be massive inflation in the US and a plummeting dollar on the international exchange markets.

If you want a slightly more coherent and well thought out explanation of this, I suggest you read Will Hutton's The state we're in.

Re:Hm, interesting...

[mrjb]

Do not go to american movies.
Well, I guess the world can always try to develop a taste for Bollywood productions.

Re:Hm, interesting...

[Bananenrepublik]

Until the rest of the world stops buying american products they will suffer under our "leadership".
Don't the US have a hugedforeign trade deficit? I.e. they actually import much more than they export? So in a sense you could say that the rest of the world already did.

Re:Hm, interesting...

[matt4077]

You dont't get it. The world does not protest american products, movies, music, clothing or McDonalds (some do, but I'm talking about the reasonable rest).

The world protests American foreign policies. If they were to boycott American Everything, it would be much easier to call them Anti-American. They're not Anti-American. They love the American Way of Life, American Freedom and everything. They just wished the US would live it's own dream, instead of participating in the historic experiment "Why Rome collapsed".

Re:Hm, interesting...

[ergo98]

Increasingly the world is not buying American products.

The US is the world's largest exporter (exporting more than even China), and often is the controlling\owning strings behind most "foreign" companies.

The trade defecit is just indicative that while the US exports $X, the world financial community lets it get away with importing $Xx(Y>1.0) without excessively punishing its dollar. That's a huge win for the US (all of the great goodies without having to pay for them).

Re:Hm, interesting...

[jsebrech]

Like other people have pointed out, the US has a current trade deficit of 40 billion dollars. That means that every year after the subtraction between import and export is made 40 billion dollars flows from the US to the rest of the world.

The reasons for this are numerous.

Few products still get made inside the US, and the money paid for products from companies known as US businesses is no longer flowing into the US ever since the wave of offshoring of the corporate structure, and by extension the financial resources, to dodge taxes (60 percent of US businesses no longer pay any taxes, at all). My guess is mcdonalds and pepsi both fall into this category, and so very little of the money earned by them around the world actually flows back into the US.

The US has refused implementing basic health safety standards in food produced domestically, like testing for BSE (they've actually forbidden US companies to test for it themselves, under a "if you can't find it, it doesn't exist" policy), and like usage of some provably unhealthy hormones to breed animals faster and fatter. For this reason the EU refuses to import a lot of categories of food from the US.

Companies like walmart have almost all their goods produced in countries like china. And so everytime you buy walmart, you buy chinese. That's money of which a considerable chunk flows to china and doesn't come back (a quarter of the trade deficit is with china alone). Most of the rest flows to the walton family bank accounts and does not leave it to be reinvested in the US economy.

I could go on and on with reasons for the trade deficit. Let's just say that the US economy is very strong, but it is bleeding to death from a thousand papercuts under policies created through decades of corporate deregulation.

Re:Hm, interesting...

[pacman on prozac]

If its not democratic then howcome I've just had a letter through telling me when and where to go and vote for our euro minister.

Stop spreading FUD spewed forth by the Sun

Re:Hm, interesting...

[jsebrech]

Sorry, I made a mistake, I said it's a yearly trade deficit of 40 billion dollars, while instead it is monthly. So that's a yearly deficit of half a trillion.

Re:Hm, interesting...

[Talence]

Even if what you say regarding oil is true, once the enormous current supply runs out, it is almost certain there will be a major price hike. It won't matter much for the longer term if there's a bit left. You're the one missing the point, however: you said that the E.U. imports a lot of resources. I pointed out that it's not that much different for the U.S. and many other countries. Why do you think there's a trade deficit?

You did correctly point out one potential misunderstanding though: I said it was obvious that you were not a E.U. citizen because of the perceived uninformedness in your statement. This applied only to you and your displayed lackof understanding of the E.U. -- it can be twisted into "people outside the E.U. are all uninformed about everything".

Your claim of how I have been educated about how to perceive the U.S. is - once again - wrong. It is a common xenophobic argumentation to claim that people from group X raise their kids to hate you and thus it's okay to hate people of group X.

You're the one who brought up the "I won't let them move into my share of land" argument. Perhaps you care to explain what you meant with that. I'm absolutely not interested in your land or your future cattle. Besides, what's wrong with your parent's basement? Mine don't even have a big enough basement.

Re:Hm, interesting...

[Conanymous Award]

You claiming that my post ``sounds quite xenophobic and uninformed'' doesn't make it so. I claim that you only said so because you've been educated to believe that everybody from the USA is a wrong cowbody, incapable of forming rational thoughts.

This comment of yours proves that you're not a EU citizen. Tell me, where can one get such education?

Re:Hm, interesting...

[Talence]

You are right and I agree with what you say. What I said was a counter to the argument of the "eww, socialists!" type. In my country, the leftist parties got decimated in favour of rightist ones and there've been various articles about the slightly right-oriented tendencies throughout Europe as well.

I do predict that with the new countries, there may be a slightly increased push for right-wing parties as a result of fear for economic problems, masses of migrants, security, etc.

I've been to Denmark a couple years ago, btw. One of the things I remember (other than having a good time) is that on the street, people just seem to walk everywhere. Here, they tend to stick more to the right side.

Re:Hm, interesting...

[Dark Master]

It seems they already do:

Quoted from the link below:
Declining respect for American cultural values exacerbated by the crisis in Iraq is having a potentially disastrous effect on the image of US brands such as McDonald's, Coca- Cola, Nike and Microsoft, a new worldwide study of consumer attitudes has found.

Link

Re:Hm, interesting...

[Malc]

It's simpler than that. We just need to persuade OPEC countries to sell oil in anything but USD$. That would completely crush the US - the government might even default if all the foreigners started selling off the USD debt they're holding.

Re:Hm, interesting...

[Milton Waddams]

i can't believe that killjoe (766577) is getting modded up! i hate this kind of "anti-american" mindless bullshit. the fact is that all americans aren't inherently evil. if you ever took your head out of your ass you'd realise that people are people, no matter where they come from, their leader doesn't speak for them, either does their countries' media. any american i have met in my travels has been really, well, normal. i think the leader of my country (Ireland) is an asshole, tony blair is clearly an asshole and jack chirac is most definitely an asshole (remember the nuclear arms testing? or the fact that they dragged american into the vietnam war?).

i disagree with america's foreign policy, and i hate the terrorist tactics that are used by israel but that doesn't mean that i hate everything american, i like to watch american films, i like american fashion and i listen to american music.

don't be such a moron. just because people like billy o' reilly are moronic reactionaries, it doesn't mean that people that disagree with people like him should act just like him.

Re:Hm, interesting...

[Talence]

I don't think it makes sense to consider a situation where all trading stops everywhere. Even in situations with militarily enforced embargoes, there will still be some sort of trade. In the case where a country's survival depends on it being to grow 100% of its own food, there are probably many other disastrous issues going on as well. Besides, I don't see how one would enforce food not being imported into the E.U., as it borders with so many different non-E.U. countries. I still maintain my oil-point: if OPEC decided today to cut production, the whole world will suffer.

I myself have often been in cities. I appreciate wide open spaces, but it's not essential for me. If having a lot of land for cheap is your dream/desire, then the U.S., Canada, Australia, etc are good places for you. Different things work for different people. I don't believe you will see that the population of many non-U.S. democratic countries is as a whole more depressed or unhappy than the one residing in the U.S.

I'm not saying you're fearful of the E.U., I just take issue with the part about "moving in" and pitying E.U. people. I feel that my experiences about E.U. citizens have some more relevance since I live here/there. My experience differs a lot from what you say my experience should/could be. Perhaps I misunderstood your intention and you can clarify.

Re:Hm, interesting...

[orcrist]

Don't the US have a hugedforeign trade deficit? I.e. they actually import much more than they export? So in a sense you could say that the rest of the world already did.

In fact that's been the case for most of my life, I think. However, I have a personal theory that the U.S. exports something a bit more ephemeral than products:

Our appetites and whims. Yes, you read that right. I truly think that the immense *hunger* of the U.S. consumer (pun intended) translates into a power over the world market which influences companies around the world to cater to those desires. Then, since it's more efficient to market your appeal to a somewhat uniform market, those companies turn around and sell things to their own compatriots in an 'American' way.

This is just my little theory about this subject. I could be wildly off base, but it rings true to me.

-chrs

Re:Hm, interesting...

[orcrist]

Exactly!! Are you listening my fellow Americans? That is representative of almost every German I know (me: American living in Germany. But I speak fluent German, so they don't always spot me). I'm sure it's the case with most French. The Germans are anything *but* anti-American. Most of them are still very grateful for things like the Marshall Plan and the Berlin airlift, and they cheered and fawned last time Clinton visited. It's Bush, his government, and its policies, that they hate. That's all.

If we pull our heads out of our asses and vote him out (maybe some remedial voter training in Florida?), then I think you'll find a huge change in attitude coming across the Atlantic. The Middle East is different. Bush has probably set us back at least a decade or more there as far as public opinion goes. The terrorist recruiting camps probably rub their hands in glee every time Bush speaks :-( He's a living breathing recruitment poster for people pissed at the States.

-chris

Re:Hm, interesting...

[jebiester]

While US dollars are the reserve currency in which oil is traded, all nations need to ensure that they have a fistful of dollars in reserve with which they can buy oil. This means that the US treasury can print and spend dollars and can get goods in return while being confident that most of these dollars are safely tied up in foreign national banks and will not be "cashed in" against the US reserves.

Some people have speculated that this was the reason the US went to war against Iraq. Iraq was intending to sell it's oil in euros rather than US dollars, and the US wanted to send a message that this can't be tollerated.

There are a couple of articles like This one (I don't know how reliable they are though).

Re:Hm, interesting...

[El Cabri]

Americans have this delusion that the presence of their brands in popular culture worldwide amounts to a political statement that people actually like the US government.

Think for example : whenever you turn on your Nintendo GC or your Sony PS2, when you go eat in a sushi bar, does it amount to a hail to the Emperor of Japan ?

Each time you drive out of a Wall Mart parking lot with your trunck full of Chinese products, does it amount to a statement of loyalty to the Chinese Communist Party ?

Re:Hm, interesting...

[El Cabri]

Since the rise of the EUR/USD rate was mirrored by the rise in the USD-quoted rate for crude oil, you can already say that oil is priced in euros : American refineries saw the price of their supply rise much more sharply than their European counterparts.

Re:Hm, interesting...

[Talence]

Okay, so basically what you say largely applies to a scenario where there is an acute shortage of food, goods and land? So it would not bother you if OPEC countries decided sell oil for euroes instead of dollars or just stop production for a few days? Did you build your nuclear bunker yet?

Anyway.. even if what you say is true, it would still have no practical use to me as it doesn't encourage me to move out of the E.U. -- there is no point in discussing whether the U.S. is "better" or whether the E.U. is. You are constantly trying to lure me in this debate, while I merely point out your own lack of knowledge about several hundred million people. The only reason you insistingly believe that I mean to disparage all/most Americans is because you are the one who believes (by your own admission) that is the way I have been brought up to believe. Without getting into details of my own upbringing, I can say that it's more the reverse that was true.

Thank you for bringing in Wikipedia. It shows that the term "xenophobic" does apply: "3. The word Xenophobic is often used as a political insult against Racists, Isolationists, and Nationalists." -- now it can be argued whether a political insult is fitting to an insult to common sense. It does appear though, that I was mildly mistaken in my initial diagnosis: your phobia appears to be more for crowded places and too many people living in the same area. Since you cannot understand why people like to live in cities, there must "obviously" be something absolutely wrong with people who live in cities.

As for making statements about Americans: I say it again: you're the one trying to bend my posts into anti-American, while I merely point out the gross inaccuracies in your posts about a region of the world you do not live in. You do NOT represent all Americans and do not speak for them.

If you want to refer to other posts you made, then use an account.

Re:Hm, interesting...

[k98sven]

The Euro is a reserve currency. Naturally, it's still far from the USD, but it is being used as a reserve currency.

I about 15% of China's national reserve are in Euros, for instance.

Re:Hm, interesting...

[killjoe]

It's not that hard. You have choices every day. If you can't avoid buying american that's one thing but surely there is a company in NZ that makes soda, there are NZ musicians, there are NZ made movies aren't there? I was in NZ once and everybody was drinking coke and listening to american songs. It was a like a suburb of america not another country.

Re:Hm, interesting...

[killjoe]

You missed my point entirely.

GW does not give a shit about protesters. HE does care if the US corporations lose money because people are boycotting them. I don't care if you like pepsi or not as long as you are drinking it you are helping to fund the american military machine.

Re:Hm, interesting...

[killjoe]

It is you who does not get it.

As long as you buy american products we don't care that you hate our policies. You can hate our policies all you want, just keep giving us money so we can make more weapons and fuck you whenever we want.

Re:Hm, interesting...

[killjoe]

As long as you like to watch american films and listen to american music then you help america fund it's military. It is billions of people like you all over the world who buy american products that help us occupy iraq and afghanistan.

Thank you for buying american products and helping us spend more on the military then the rest of the word combined. Your buying of american products will also help us out one day when we decide to occupy europe.

Re:Hm, interesting...

[AstroDrabb]

you need to know that the entire European Union is much larger than the United States, both in population and economy.

You are comparing many nations (the EU) to one. If you compare the USA to any other single nation, we are by far the largest in economy. There is also the GNP:

Gross National Product (GNP) is the total value of final goods and services produced in a year by domestically owned factors of production.

The GNP for the USA dwarfs the rest of the world.

Top 10 GNP ($ mill)
United States 10,207,039
Japan 4,323,919
Germany 1,876,340
United Kingdom 1,510,771
France 1,362,077
China 1,234,157
Italy 1,100,713
Canada 702,041
Mexico 597,028
Spain 596,469

And for Gross Domestic Product:

Gross Domestic Product (GDP) is the total value of final goods and services produced within a country's borders in a year.

Again, the USA dwarfs any other single nation on earth:

United States 10,383,100
Japan 3,993,433
Germany 1,984,095
United Kingdom 1,566,283
France 1,431,278
China 1,266,052
Italy 1,184,273
Canada 714,327
Spain 653,075
Mexico 637,203

It really is silly to compare the entire EU's economy with that of the USA's. Let us compare apples to apples. It is not like all members of the EU stand together on issues, otherwise we would not have had some EU members supporting Bush's "war on terror" while other members opposed it.

While it is important for the EU to not accept the USA's broken patent system, we _need_ to work on it here in the USA. Otherwise, the EU will eventually give in with enough bribing from American companies. If 3 EU member nations vote no, you can bet there will be tons of bribes^H^H^H^H^H^Hcontirbutions coming from USA companies to those nations.

Re:Hm, interesting...

[Fafner]

The USA produces food at nowhere near the level it can, and we have enormous amounts of land for overpopulation to spill into.

Europe produces nowhere near the amount of food we can and the whole EU is founded on the concept of regulating the output and princing of agricultural products.

You keep claiming that if EU stays a trade union all is fine, but you kinda miss the point. EU was never a trade union. EU was founded in order to regulate the market and ensuring basic supplies and stability to the member states.

The Free Trade Zone came a lot later and EU has progressed since then to be political union as well. The trade union stage is long passed.

(And btw. you don't need to pity people living in cities. We are many who prefer the life of the cities to the lack of same in the rural areas).

Re:Hm, interesting...

[ChrisMaple]

Do not wear american clothing

Most Americans don't buy American clothing. Just look at the labels: Phillipines, China, Mexico, Honduras...

Re:Hm, interesting...

[Tough Love]

Anyways in this case it might be more relavant to define a "software GDP," and for now I think the US would be #1 in that dept.

Is that good or bad? The bigger the "software GDP" is, the more money gets sucked out of the part of the economy that actually produces wealth. Much better when the software is free or cheap (but still good) so that the whole economy can benefit, not just a select few.

Re:Hm, interesting...

[BiggerIsBetter]

Surprisingly, it is that hard. Yes, there are NZ musos, but the better ones often sign with big international labels. Forget the radio for listening to the un-signed artists though, it's mostly owned by a Canadian company and they all seem to only deal with the big labels. Student and some "ethnic" radio is the last reprive. A NZ company that makes Soda? Um, I know there are/were some... but try finding it on the Australian owned supermarket shelves (disclaimer: I buy NZ made "sports-water"). There are a few NZ made movies, but not enough, and the few that get screened are usually only during film festivals. There's essentially only 2 or 3 film distribution channels, which typically , the major one which is owned by an Aussie. The TV industry is screwed up, with our govt giving grants to productions like "NZ Idol" which then gets funds from 0900 "viewer voting" (had the highest price in the international franchise, IIRC) etc, while true local talent often goes without.

Yeh, some of it is like a suburb of the US, and many folks like it that way. Personally, I'll do what I can to support local industry and culture, but I sometimes wonder if it's a losing battle when our mass markets are pwned by companies with different goals.

Re:Hm, interesting...

[killjoe]

As I said you have choices. Every dollar you spend is more important then your vote. Maybe the fact that you don't have local companies making soda, cars, music etc is that your own population does not support them. Maybe if the people of NZ decided to help their own economy instead of other economies then you'd be better off.

Finally even in foreign prodicts you have a choice. Don't choose a holden (a GM owned company) choose a toyota instead. I did a quick googling and it looks like Bush is really fucking you guys over because you did not support his war. He is giving fat contracts to Aus while he won't even sign a free trade agreement with you. If you can't avoid american products for that then you deserve what you get.

I don't mean to be harsh, the people I met in NZ were awsome but come on now. How can you disagree so much with a govt and then support it by buying products made in that govt?

Re:Hm, interesting...

[killjoe]

There is a profound difference between a trade deficit and an organized, vocal boycott. A boycott would make a difference.

Re:Hm, interesting...

[BiggerIsBetter]

Most people are sheep (or relatively poor) and don't (or can't) think any bigger than feeding their kids and keeping the house payments up. I'm lucky in that I can make choices based on my opinions about his kind of thing, but many folks can't. I don't disagree with you about this stuff, I'm just saying that public awareness is an issue here and that when the bulk of the media is foreign owned it's likely to stay that way.

Re:Hm, interesting...

[Talence]

You imagine a lack of knowledge.

Your assertion is that your statements about the E.U. are true. My assertion as someone who lives here is that your statements about the E.U. are not true. However, even if you did live here, they would still not be true. The fact that you don't is illustrative. Based on what you said, I could quite easily guess that you did not live here.

Even IF I were foaming at the mouth about how all Americans are this or are that, your statements would STILL not be true. You're using two fallacies in one: instead of backing up your claims about the E.U. with e.g. links to neutral websites, you choose to instead discredit the person giving the criticism by trying to argue that I'm biased towards all people of your particular nationality.

If you keep claiming that my statements about the E.U. are false because of my alleged bias against Americans in spite of my repeated disagreeance with that bias, then it would be fair to say that the same process applies to you and your level of bias against the E.U. and its residents is at least the same as the one you perceive against yourself. That makes the whole argument moot.

You have tried to link to wikipedia once before and that link instead confirmed what *I* was saying, even though you claimed that "everything" wikipedia said contradicted with my use of certain terms.

Can you or can you not give links to websites that back up your point of view about the E.U.? If you can do so, the core of this argument is quite quickly settled and the rest is trivial detail.

You're just trying to be insulting, now.

It's not an insult if it's true.

Reread the posts you've made. They are absolutely filled with anti-American sentiment. It clouds over every post you've made.

Nonsense. You are the one who reads anti-American sentiment in everything. If people would write "I don't like hamburgers", you'd interpret that as anti-American too. You are the one taking initiative with displaying bias against the E.U. -- almost everything you have said about it is contradicted directly by facts on the ground.

IF I were to use a bias against you, I would mention your preference for dung-smelling farmland where your primary partners for conversation (and more?) are cows. That would be a bias that many city-dwellin' Americans would "share" with me. Yeehaw!

You don't make the rules.

Neither do you. I'm not obliged to look at all the AC posts of the other trolls.

Re:Hm, interesting...

[Milton Waddams]

ha! that is hilarious! invade europe? you're stupider than i thought.

do you think, if i stopped buying american goods that american forces would instantly stop killing people all around the world? i don't even know why i'm arguing with you, you're clearly trolling.

Re:Hm, interesting...

[KamuSan]

Without excessively punishing the dollar?
Erh, it's now $1.20 for a Euro...
That's one fifth of a value decrease compared to the start of the Euro.

Re:Hm, interesting...

[killjoe]

Don't laugh. It could happen. Nobody thought we would invade and occupy iraq either.

And no I don't think we would instantly stop killing people. It would be a gradual process whereby little by little we would be forced to cut military spending which would mean we would stop killing people. It would take a while but it would happen.

Re:Hm, interesting...

[killjoe]

Do you mean to say that the products made in the US and shipped all the way to NZ are cheaper then products made in NZ, Aus or even Japan?

That seems weird.

Re:Hm, interesting...

[Milton Waddams]

everyone knew that you were going to invade iraq. it was blatantly obvious for about a year.

Re:Hm, interesting...

[killjoe]

Yes. But before GW took office it was unthinkable. That's what I mean. American politics are fickle. One day president dick cheney (shudder) could decide that the french smell bad and need to be occupied and the american people would all salute him.

I don't think you realize how much republicans hate the europeans.

Re:Hm, interesting...

[BiggerIsBetter]

Uh... not necessarily. As far as physical products go, cheapest stuff is typically Asian (but not Japanese). To be fair, my main beef is more about company ownership than the products themselves. It does depend on the markets involved and my hi-tech tastes aren't easily filled here.

Anyways, here's the run down for me getting some car stuff... because of the small market size (4 million people), most foreign products are handled by one or two distributors who often only deal with retailers. This get's silly very very fast. Eg, if I buy an HKS boost controller for my car, it would come though one local dude, who bought from the Aussie distributor, who got it from Japan. Obviously this is stupid, so I buy it from a) some Japanese shop, b) some local Japanese guy with contacts, or c) the US because it's so much cheaper there that even with shipping it works out 30% less on my door.

So I want to buy it locally if I can, except in many cases there is no local producer, or they charge "the market rate" which is comparable to the foreign stuff, but quality and/or selection can be an issue sometimes. Eg, tires for my Subaru. I wanted some Firestone Turunza LS/T or something, which were well rated all-season tyres, and retail at around $85 NZD each in the US. We have a Firestone tire factory here, but they don't make that one... and what they do make for my car isn't as good and costs $190 NZD each.

And to top it off, I'm paying over 1/2 my income in tax (income tax, gst, student loan, levies, duties, etc, etc). It's a nice place to live, but not a good place to get rich.

Re:Hm, interesting...

[Milton Waddams]

i do realise how much they hate us, i get fox news on cable here :) i suppose you may have a point. i just think that it's a tad extreme, but hey, so are the republicans.

A good first step

[ErichTheWebGuy]

On Groklaw, this was reported last Thursday. Not only will Germany vote no, but there is some pretty heavy pressure on France to do the same. In fact, to quote Groklaw, "They call business methods patents on software corporate racketeering and say they don't want to copy US methods"

The entities putting pressure on the French govt. include the head of MandrakeSoft, who has pretty heavy pull over in France. In fact, IIRC, a lot of French govt. agencies use Mandrake Linux.

strategy

[bladesjester]

all that companies in the EU will have to do if software patents are denied in the EU will be to set up a small arm of the company in the US. since most software products are sold here as well, they can just do the litigation here in the US. all it would take is for the company violating the patent to have an office or bank account in the US or to sell the offending product in the US...

Re:strategy

[Anonymous Coward]

A patent in country A is not valid in country B, is it?

Re:strategy

[SeXy_Red]

But if the EU chose to limit software patents, would they still honor the US's ubiquitous software patents?

Re:strategy

[bladesjester]

doesn't matter if the EU honors them or not. as long as two things happen

1) the company in the EU has a branch in the US through which to file the patent with the US patent office

2) the company accused of violating this patent has either an office or bank account in the US or sells the product which allegedly violates the patent in the US.

if those two conditions are met, the company holding the patent can sue in the US, bypassing the EU completely.

Re:strategy

[Anonymous Coward]

...but only in the US for business done in the US.

So that means that if Mandrake XVI has some technology that is patented by Microsoft, all Microsoft can do is sue MandrakeSoft US for business it has done in the US, not for all of MandrakeSoft's businesses throughout the world.

Right?

Re:strategy

[Deliveranc3]

You are missing the point.

Copywrights need to be accepted in other countries for them to be valid... the E.U. can decide if itwants to honour American patents.

Re:strategy

[Baki]

Only if you want to sell in the US you would be affected.

If you are a small or middle sized european company, the software patents regime would have you locked out of all markets.
If at least europe rejects them, you can operate freely on the european market, which is better than nothing.

In the longer run, this will lead to more room for innovation on the european market, and europe might surpass the US in software innovation. Do not forget that the european market is already double the number of citizens as the US, add more freedom to innovate and all those weird restrictions on the US market might become quite insignificant over time.

Re:strategy

[sydb]

But if the EU decides not to honour US patents, and GWB is appointed President for a second term, I see another cold war brewing.

Re:strategy

[flossie]

But if the EU decides not to honour US patents, and GWB is appointed President for a second term, I see another cold war brewing.

I knew there had to be a bright side to the possibility of Bush getting re-elected. Another of his "for us or against us" speeches, but this time about software patents, is probably the best thing that could happen to unite Europe against the American position.

Patents work.

[digitalPortal]

The overall premise of patenting an invention is valid and protects the inventor. However, I agree the current system is highly abused. The flaw in the current system, is the ability to patent 'IDEAS' even if you cant physically create a functioning prototype. For example, right now you can patent the 'IDEA' of a hovercraft car, and 50 years from now when someone actually develops a hovercraft car...they *must* pay royalties to you. ???? this needs to be changed. You should only be able to patent physical process (algorithms, products) and not ideas. -$0.02

Re:Patents work.

[WindowLicker916]

Patents are to protect the creators idea. If I was to mention a completly original idea to someone, then they ran out and come up with a physical copy before me, patented it as their own idea, I could possible be screwed from millions/billions of $$'s. Of course there are alot more problems that may arise from that patent system, to take into account, But I am sure you can come up with some for yourself. Look what happened to Steve Jobs (Microsoft)

Re:Patents work.

[Abcd1234]

Patents are to protect the creators idea. If I was to mention a completly original idea to someone, then they ran out and come up with a physical copy before me, patented it as their own idea, I could possible be screwed from millions/billions of $$'s.

Umm... yeah, that's the way the system is *supposed* to work. If you'd been smart, you would have created a working prototype and patented the idea *before* you told anyone about it. Sounds pretty simple to me, and perfectly fair. What's the problem?

Re:Patents work.

[J. T. MacLeod]

Not everyone has a shop in their backyard sophisticated enough to build anything their imagination can dream of.

Re:Patents work.

[Abcd1234]

Then save up some money, or get a private backer. The patent system doesn't exist to protect every single inventor and their pet ideas. It exists to encourage inventors to disclose their ideas (thus encouraging further innovation) while retaining the ability to gain a profit from them via a limited monopoly on the idea. 'course, it's a little tough to gain profit from an idea if you can't even afford to create a friggin' prototype. So, patents won't help you... big surprise, that's not their purpose! Unless, of course, your aim is to dream up wild ideas and patent them on the off chance that you'll have an opportunity to extort some poor company. And if that's your plan... well, let's just say I'm glad you're not the head of the USPTO.

Re:Patents work.

[wortelslaai3434]

Not quite... patents are valid for a limited period only - between 17 and 20 years depending on where in the application process it gets granted. You'll remember the patents on RSA lapsing a couple of years ago. There is also no option of an extension as with copyright.

Re:Patents work.

[McDutchie]

You should only be able to patent physical process (algorithms, products) and not ideas.

I thought that was called "copyright". The whole idea with patents is to monopolize ideas, not specific products which is copyright's domain.

Re:Patents work.

[linuxhansl]

I agree, a patent is by itself a good concept.

For software (aswell for music and movies, btw), however, copyright law already regulates ownership. Allowing patents on software is like allowing patents on sequences of tunes or on sequences of images. It's absurd.

With copyright governing in the software world, you can be sure that whatever you write yourself from scratch is yours. With Patents allowed you may infringe on existing patents without your knowledge. That is the big difference.

I don't know our friends in the music industry would react if patents on sequences of tunes or images would suddenly be allowed.

Re:Patents work.

[J. T. MacLeod]

Patenting simple ideas and abusing legitimate businesses tends to be the realm of large businesses, not private parties, though it does happen both ways.

Nonetheless, requiring fabrication is a burden that places most patents in a class that only wealthy businesses can pursue.

Finding a private backer isn't all that easy, especially when you can't reveal your invention because you haven't patented it. Saving money can either take time or be beyond the realm of possibility. Patents were made for the small man, NOT for the mega-corporation. That's changed significantly in the years between.

My great grandfather, in his lifetime, twice invented something that could revolutionize the automotive industry. The first time, he could not find a private backer, nor would his wife let him put their house at risk to get the money to patent it himself. He took a gamble on the good will of the men in Detroit, and lost. Terribly. His invention was stolen.

The second time he came up with something far more amazing. This time, he was able to get the money to pursue patenting it. He couldn't get a patent, though, because his prototype was deemed inadequate. He fully intended to pursue marketing it to a company which could make use of it, but he didn't, because he couldn't protect it.

I've personally designed several things that could be quite impactful, but I'm unable to pursue marketing them to companies that could make use of them because I lack the very sophisticated and expensive resources necessary to begin down the path required by the present system. Though I prefer ideas be in the public domain, I know that, generally speaking, to bring an invention or improvement to a wide market so that it will be useful, it must be protected by a patent so a company will consider using it. What can I do? Nothing, presently. It's really killed my passion for invention.

Genuine innovation, and the pursuit of marketing that innovation, is indeed possible without the resources for fabrication. It's happened a lot over the years, but most people aren't able to do anything with it, because the present system is classist.

Re:Patents work.

[cpghost]

and 50 years from now when someone actually develops a hovercraft car...they *must* pay royalties to you

Make that 20 years. Patents don't last longer, at least for now.

Re:Patents work.

[dave1g]

even worse than a sequence of tunes; the patent could say "varying tones used in a certain order to invoke an emotional response"

I just patented a ton of music :)

Re:Patents work.

[Halo1]

Patents are to protect the creators idea.

No, patents are to protect inventions. Mere ideas are way too cheap to get to protect them with a 17/20 year monopoly (not to mention that you hinder a ton of inventors with it, as none of them can commercialise inventions based on that idea anymore without paying for it).

See e.g. this 8 slide presentation, especially pages 3-6.

Re:Patents work.

[Halo1]

You should only be able to patent physical process (algorithms, products) and not ideas.

I thought that was called "copyright". The whole idea with patents is to monopolize ideas, not specific products which is copyright's domain.

Well, first of all the original poster was wrong, as an algorithm is not per definition a physical process. Next, the whole idea with patents is not to monopolise ideas, but inventions. Have a look at this presentation, especially slides 3-6.

Finally, copyright is not for products, but for literary works and works of art. In general, one says only "expressions" can be copyrighted. There are also several other kinds of protection, such as one for chip designs (because they are deemed not creative enough to fall under copyright, and neither inventive enough to fall under patents) and drawings and models rights (for technical schematics/miniatures of constructions).

There is explicitly no protection foreseen for mathematical formula's, business methods etc, because the resulting monopolies would hinder followup innovation more than that they would encourage it and/or because the resulting disclosure is not very useful (as in case of business methods: by using them, you disclose them). There's of course always the "industrial secret" which you can use in certain cases.

Re:Patents work.

[Abcd1234]

He took a gamble on the good will of the men in Detroit, and lost. Terribly. His invention was stolen.

Well, I hate to say it, but that was his mistake. Perhaps he should have gotten some advice from a lawyer or a businessman first. As another poster alluded, your great grandfather should have had a contract written up which would have prevented the automotive companies from stealing his idea (ie, allowing him to retain rights to any resultant patents). If it was as revolutionary as you claim, I'm sure the automotive industry would have signed the contract.. He chose not do to that, though, likely due to naivete (certainly not his fault), and the rest is history.

He couldn't get a patent, though, because his prototype was deemed inadequate.

Then it was inadequate. I hardly see how this is the USPTO's fault. Build a better prototype. *shrug*

It's happened a lot over the years, but most people aren't able to do anything with it, because the present system is classist.

Boo hoo. I say again, the USPTO doesn't exist in order to protect your average inventor and their pet ideas. As for your complaint that "the present system is classist", that is really a problem with capitalism... the fact is, the people with resources are the ones who are capable of developing new ideas. Big surprise. It takes money to develop new ideas into real, valid products. The USPTO can hardly be blamed for this.

The alternative is that you let just anybody patent absolutely anything. Great. So, instead of truly innovating, i.e., coming up with a new idea, creating a prototype, and actually *bringing it to market*, I'll just do the first part! Then, when some company independly develops my idea, I'll just sue them!

Sorry, but I prefer the current system.

Now, I'm sorry to hear that you feel cynical about the way the system works. But it is what it is. If your ideas are so wonderful, take them to a company, convince them to sign an NDA, and develop your idea. If you can't do that, then maybe, just maybe, your idea isn't as great (or as feasible) as you assume.

Re:Patents work.

[AstroDrabb]

There are tons of ways to go about doing what your grandfather did. He should have paid a small fee to a lawyer to draft up an NDA. Then anyone he pitched the idea to would have to sign it. If they break it, he sues.

There is no point in allowing people to just patent an idea without any prototype. What would stop a person or groups of people from just thinking up all kinds of crap all day long and patenting everthing then can? That person or persons are bound to come up with some ideas that will be put into use someday. So they should be able to sit back and collect money for no work?

I am a programmer and can think up tons of ideas of what technology _may_ be around in the next 5-10 years. Should I be allowed to just patent those and then go on a suing spree in 5-10 years when there is anything that is close to my patenets?

The patent system is not made to make any single inventor rich (though that may be a side effect), but to enrich society as a whole with _new_ and _novel_ ideas, methods and products.

Re:Patents work.

[J. T. MacLeod]

There is no reason why we cannot put patents into the realm of the poor inventor AND prevent abuse of the patent system, as you mentioned. In fact, there is no protection against that abuse now!

It's easy to say "Build a better prototype", but not nearly so easy to do it.

Unfortunately, due to the nature of certain ideas, it's not that easy to get someone to sign and NDA. Some inventions cannot be described without explaining how they work. Other times you simply can't get someone's attention with a basic description of an idea.

I agree that there should be restrictions to prevent the abuse you described, but there's no reason why someone should not be allowed to patent an idea BEFORE they have the resources to market it. That's really the best protection there is, and thus far it is usually only wealthy inventors who can obtain it.

Capitalism has little to do with what makes the patent system classist, it is the system for obtaining patents that both makes it classist and allows it to be abused. Granted, there has always been some cost associated with it, but the cost of fabricating prototypes for some things makes it unobtainable in many cases.

When it's all said and done...

[DoraLives]

my guess is that the entire house of cards in the US will all come crashing down. The canny Europeans seem to be looking slightly ahead here with an eye toward saving themselves some trouble farther down the road.

Re:When it's all said and done...

[Anonymous Coward]

Spot on.
I've said this before here. What is going to happen when the huge backlog of trivial and unworthy patents are invalidated en masse? The stupid companies that spent money on them are going to lose them all outright. That would add up to billions of asset capital wiped off in an instant.

These big corporations may feel smug and clever at grabbing patents on swinging sideways and one click whatever, but who will be laughing when they are told they are worth nothing and the money has gone. Not the shareholders that's for sure.

Shareholders should act against companies making weak IP claims because they are just flushing money down the pan for the future.

If you think that Europe is not 'cooperating' with the (ridiculous) American way of thinking about these things wait until you hear what the rest of the world thinks about it. You think the Indians and Chinese are going to repect twisted patents?
Think again.

Amen

[WindowLicker916]

Hopefully this will eventually cause change in the American patent system. The current system pratically stifles competition and clogs our court systems, costing millions to tax payers. I mean, come on, why should one click shopping be considered a patentable idea?

Re:Amen

[penguinoid]

I mean, come on, why should one click shopping be considered a patentable idea?

Because it is worth several billion dollars to have a patent (monopoly) on it.

Re:Amen

[cmacb]

But only with our patent system. It's a self fulfilling prophesy that if you create an artificial limit on the availability of anything (in this case ideas) that what little remains will become more "valuable". If international trade continues to be the way of the world, only an international patent system with some "World Court" form of adjudication can make it work. Otherwise, we here in the US will continue our circle jerk in our own courts while unfettered innovation will take place somewhere else.

Somethings got to give here. I wish I knew what it would be.

Re:Amen

[Vlad_the_Inhaler]

My understanding of this is that is very difficult to turn the clock back. If the US went the sensible way and declared a whole class of patents to be unenforceable, there would be two large problems:

• Large companies who make very large donations to political parties would be more than a little bit peeved. Since large companies who make very large donations seem to have taken over the political process in the US, this makes change unlikely
• If an accident happened and the laws did change, would not the owners of the patents be looking for damages against the government? Or can the US government simply say 'we changed the rules, and you are out of luck'?

Re:Amen

[warrax_666]

If an accident happened and the laws did change, would not the owners of the patents be looking for damages against the government? Or can the US government simply say 'we changed the rules, and you are out of luck'?

I don't think you can sue the government for damages based on any particular law they pass. I think the best you can hope for is to get the law repealed if it is deemed unconstitutional by the Supreme Court (if they even decide to hear the case).

IANAL, however, so take this with a metric ton of salt.

Re:Amen

[Dalroth]

Why is something illegal? Because there is a law against it! What other kind of justification do you need?! Self fulfilling indeed.

Re:Amen

[WindowLicker916]

Since when has pissing off the American public mattered to the government? If they really want to do something....they will do it. I dont believe changing the patent system would be considered unconstitutional or break any laws, specially if it's for the betterment of our capatalist society.

Patent This

[Deaper]

I still want to get a patent for the human reproductive proccess so that I can essentially control who can and can not reproduce. Gosh knows somebody needs to.

Re:Patent This

[LPetrazickis]

You'd have to discover the human reproductive process first.;)

Well

[acceber]

I suppose if Germany decides not to support the European Commission on changes in the law to software patents, then nobody can sway them otherwise because they are a sovereign state and don't have to comply with what the WIPO or the EC says.

The WIPO as an agency of the UN, can aim to standardise patent laws worldwide but of course, international law isn't binding and Germany has all the right in the world to choose not to recognise law outside of their domestic jurisdiction.

Ultimately, if Germany doesn't have the political will to support the EC on changes to software patents...then nobody can force them.

Re:Well

[Yokaze]

> international law isn't binding and Germany has all the right in the world to choose not to recognise law outside of their domestic jurisdiction.

This would be quite sad, if this were the opinion of the American public.

International law is as binding as any contract without law enforcement. You may brake it, but that fact will make you untrustworthy for partners. And, as it happens, such distrust stays for generations and hard work against it.

In contrast to some nations, the members of the EU are accepting supranational authority and international law. International law is the foundation of the EU, so otherwise the whole concept of the union would be void.

Even before a nation is even considered to be admitted to the EU, it has submit itself to the rulings of the European Court of Human Rights.

Member states have to be enact all directives in national in at most 5 years time. Otherwise, they have to answer to the
European Court of Justice.

But since all directives have to be decided unanimously, Germany could block the motion.

Like a human relationship, it is about trust, giving and taking. If only Germany would vote against it, it could rekindle the fear that Germany wants to dominate Europe (See the long lasting effect of history).
If only the largest nations vote against it, the small nations feel set back. This could make different directives in favour for the larger nations more difficult. And to preempt the question, yes, nations have voted for directives against their own advantage.

The question is, does the German goverment feel strong enough about the issue to block it against the vote of other nations?

Re:Well

[pe1chl]

>This would be quite sad, if this were the opinion of the American public.

Well it may not be the opinion of the American public, but it certainly is the opinion of the American government, isn't it?

Re:Well

[Skunkhead]

"then nobody can sway them otherwise because they are a sovereign state and don't have to comply with what the WIPO or the EC says."

Thats not quite correct. I suppose decisions like these are made in the Council, and this is probably an issue were there is no need for a consensus. This means that Germany and France could vote against, but if the other 23 states vote for this, then it doesn't matter what Germany or France think.

Plus, if the EU decides something, then Germany has to comply. You would be surprised by the effect the EU has on the domestic policy of the member states, no matter how big or important they are.

I also wonder...

[ErichTheWebGuy]

For the benefit of the uninformed, such as myself, can anyone shed some light on how international patent treaties work? Say,

printf "hello world";\n

is patented in the US, but in another country that has a patent treaty with the US, it is ruled that software patents are illegal.

Who wins there? I would think local law would trump any treaties, but am I wrong?

Re:I also wonder...

[ErichTheWebGuy]

OK, for all of you that will point out my glaring syntax error, allow me to commit this bugfix:

printf "hello world\n";

Re:I also wonder...

[penguinoid]

printf ("hello world\n");

Certainly you can't patent the use of a function with such a simple argument (at least not yet :-) However, I think that it would be possible to patent printf() itself. Does anyone know whethere there is a copyright on printf()?

Re:I also wonder...

[ErichTheWebGuy]

Does anyone know whethere there is a copyright on printf()?

I don't know about that, but I've heard there is a copyright on the ASCII chars:
S C O

and that someone is claiming that, by implication, they own the entire ASCII scheme, and therefore the entire English language... I think a previous troll said it best:

Don't forget to pay your $699 license fee!

Re:I also wonder...

[arkhan_jg]

Simple. there's no patent treaty between the US and the EU.

With copyright, (the Berne convention) once it's written, it's automatically copyrighted in all Berne nations (which is most of them). Registering is still a good idea if you're expecting someone else to claim ownership on the same or very similar work. Licensing said works though, still has to be done via national bodies, which is one reason itunes hasn't come to europe yet.

With patents, you need to register in every country you want patent protection in. The patent rules are not universal, and at least between the EU countries and the US, there's no treaty recognising each others patents. However, I believe it is possible to use patents from other nations to demonstrate prior art, and if you have a patent in one country, it can speed up the prior art examination in another.

As far as software goes, there is a specific exemption in EU patent law that disallows pure software patents. This is what the big companies are lobbying to remove, under the guise of 'tidying up' the law. This is because the EPO has been granting 'computer implemented inventions' on the basis that if it needs hardware to run, or is part of a hardware system, the whole thing can be patented. Of course, these patents are of very questionable legitimacy, so the patent holders have not been sueing for infringement in europe as the end result would probably be they'd lose the patent.

If they can change the law to legitimise their current patents though, and allow more, big US patent holders will be able to shut down large swathes of the EU software development houses (the EU has a huge number of small and medium companies, rather than the few big ones in the US, thus vulnerable to long winded patent ligitation)

Note, the European Patent Office allows you to register your patent with them, and ask for it to be as valid in as many of the EPC signing nations as you want to pay for. The EPC is a patent convention, harmonising patent law between the signing nations, which includes some nations outside the EU itself. Definitely not the US tho!

And my own position; patents on maths, ideas or business methods should remain illegal. We already have a method for protecting specific implementations of inventions in software, it's called copyright. Patents should be the process of protecting specific physical inventions, i.e. a specific mousetrap spring design, not the idea of 'a device that traps mammals'. Imagine if people started patenting plot ideas in novels or TV shows!

Re:I also wonder...

[ErichTheWebGuy]

Well, that answers that! Quite informative, thank you. Although, I have to say my level of infuriation is growing as I dig deeper into US "intellectual property" law. The little guy has almost zero chance at succeeding... But that's a whole other topic.

Re:I also wonder...

[jrumney]

Simple. there's no patent treaty between the US and the EU.

There is a WIPO patent treaty which is recognized by US and EU. It does not set down any standards for patents, but says that if an invention has been patented in 7 (from memory, maybe 1 or 2 more or less) member states, then it is automatically recognized in all states. That is the reason you see companies like Microsoft trying to patent XML formats in New Zealand. Holding a New Zealand Patent is not much use to Microsoft in and of itself, but if the New Zealand Patent system is lax enough to let this through, and not bogged down so they can get it through quickly, it can help them get to the point where they can get their patent into other countries by default. Ghana is another popular place to patent things for the same reason.

Re:I also wonder...

[arkhan_jg]

Ah, is that part of TRIPS? I know that it defines minimum standards of patents, which doesn't include software patents - I left that out for simplicity, the post was too long as it was - but I wasn't aware that if something was patented in enough countries, it became automatically valid elsewhere! Thanks for the heads up, I'll do more digging.

Re:I also wonder...

[jrumney]

Ah, is that part of TRIPS?

Yes that's the one.

Re:Patent This -- Amazon Patents the Penis

[digitalPortal]

http://www.jwp.bc.ca/saulm/nn/amazon.htm SEATTLE--In a move that could shake up non platonic relationships, Internet retailer Amazon.com has patented the use of the male penis. Amazon's possession of this patent could allow the company to prohibit men from using theirs without giving the online merchant information.

heh

[maelstrom]

One gets the impression we could make the EU do anything we wanted with reverse psychology.

"OH Bush likes it? Dirty Texans, we shall do the opposite."

Re:heh

[talornin]

Is that so bad?

Id be apt to belive that running a nation based on the oposite of every action Bush takes would make a peacfull and harmonic nation of responsible people whos promary goal is not to make as much money as possible so they can eat as much junk food as possible.

Re:heh

[maelstrom]

Its not bad if the issues are being carefully thought through and considered. I'd rather see the EU be PRO-something than ANTI-asomething.

Re:heh

[anshil]

Pro-Something? Heh! We're currently running the biggest peace project ever! We're uniting europe and just now slowly spreading to the east. Two weeks ago we embraced 10 new countries from the former east. It will cost us millons of billions to bring them to western standards and to get an equably spreaded weatlh - by the way a major goal of the EU - this is the only way to ensure permant peace, as unequality will always result in war&terrorism. Thats something the US does not get, 9/11 has shown you can built tons of rockets and warships it does not save you from the massive dangers of disproportionateness .

Re:heh

[Anonymous Coward]

"9/11 has shown you can built tons of rockets and warships it does not save you from the massive dangers of disproportionateness ."

- us in the EU can focus on non-military affairs precisely because the US takes care of the missiles n' guns part of business. As for "disproportionateness", the Africans aren't a problem to the US, nor are the Indians or the Chinese. Rather, the relatively cash-endowed gulf states are the source of the current little imbroglio.

That Europeans see "disproportionateness" as the problem is mostly due to one of our traditional industries - Bad Ideology Production, in which we have a long and proven track record (though no patent system...). Nothing like some pidgin Marxism to explain the world, no?

A few points: "disproportionateness" had very little to do with the Balkan wars(pre WWI), WWI, the Balkan wars (post WWI), WWII, the Russo-Finnish war, the Cold War, the Balkan Wars (modern), and so on. When disproportionateness causes strife, it has usually been inside a particular country.

Regards, Döbeln

-Stabil som fan!

Re:heh

[Anonymous Coward]

And ironically, this would actually lead to a government almost always taking the correct option

Re:heh

[VanillaCoke420]

It will cost EU a lot of cash initially, but I believe that in the long run, we all will benefit from it, economically, and also the greater chance for peace throughout Europe. We even got Turkey working hard to change, and that's only because of the remote possibility that one day, maybe, they could apply for membership too.

Re:heh

[anshil]

I agree, however I constantly want to emphasise the EU started as a peace project after world-war II no one thought about economic benefits or draw-backs. Now in the 1990ies we concentrated mainly on the economic aspects. However I think it's important to keep in mind the political aspects EU - and it's economic way of integreation to ensure peace where it lais it hands upon.

The new countries will now make a hard a time! Just think what the unionation of germany ment for west germany. They still aren't over to the top-hill.

Re:heh

[anshil]

Well I am not that literate in history. But at least for WWII I know that disproportionateness played a major role in it. Hadn't germany being forced to this relative enormous repairments-payments Hitler would possibly not had a chance to gain power, nor to convince the germans about the badness of the rest of the world.

But like any model in can explain some aspects not all, I agree that in the cold war system competition played the major role instead of disproportionateness, but it was a cold one after all, wasn't it?

Re:heh

[VanillaCoke420]

Absolutely, the political gain will hopefully be huge. I think that the recent expansion will bring stability and more prosperity to parts of Europe that are generally less wealthy than western Europe. This is a good thing. I suspect it wont be easy, but it will be worth it. Isn't it great that countries that have been engaging in wars, cold and hot, now come together in peace? And you're right, the unioniation of Germany is a good example... how are they coming along in reaching the same standard of living?

By the way, regarding uniting Europe, I hear reports that the director of the Russian space agency wants Russia to join the European Space Agency as an equal member! I can't see anything negative in this. I truly hope they can join. :-)

Re:heh

[Vlad_the_Inhaler]

This is going way off the subject of software patents, but a quickie on that one:

• Bismark persuaded the ruler of France - Napoleon III - to declare war on Prussia in 1871 as part of B's scheme to unite the whole of the German states under Prussian leadership.
  The French army was supposed to be the best in the world, but the Germans had overtaken them both in leadership and weaponry and the Germans won quickly.
  As far as Bismark was concerned, the thing was over. Other elements in the Prussian leadership overruled him and made the French pay large 'reparations' for having declared war.
• Fast forward 47 years to the end of WW1. Germany had been too ambitious and had lost a war. The French had suffered the most and forced gigantic reparations through against the Germans, the Americans and British let the French have their way. The Germans, Austrians and Hungarians also lost a lot of territory.
• The cycle was broken (and reversed) in 1945 with the Marshall Plan.

The reparations in 1871 were designed to keep the French down and reduce their ability to take revenge.
The reparations in 1918 were designed to keep the Germans down and reduce their ability to take revenge.
that last sentence was a testimony to the powers of copy and paste :-)

Re:heh

[kunudo]

Well, unlike you, some of us europeans have reason have to faith in our governments. They provide us with nice things like superb free healthcare, fair unemplyment benefits (and when people are laid off, they don't usually sit around collecting benefits), the right to strike, and my employer cannot fire me without a good reason (that is, individuals being fired because the boss' girlfriend asked him who that hot guy in cubicle 4 was :) However, they can still lay off everyone at a branch office because it is no longer economically viable and such, which is fair. I lived in the US for a while, and everyone was constantly worried about stuff like benefits from their employers. Some people I know didn't have job contracts, even though they had had the same job at the local university for like 5 years. They picketed the university for half an hour during lunch, then went back to work. Nothing happened, and they couldn't go on strike. Sad.

Re:heh

[zopu]

>> "Your naive"
>> I'm sorry, I don't have a 'naive'. Is it some sort of American device?

> naive adj. 1. Lacking worldly experience and understanding

That has to be the most ironic thing I've read in ages.

btw check out the meaning of "your", vladmir...

Re:heh

[quax]

Glad you brought this up. Here in the US everybody seems to assume the EU is a pureely anti-American project to compete with US world dominance.

Re:heh

[meringuoid]

the director of the Russian space agency wants Russia to join the European Space Agency as an equal member!

As an equal member? Russia? This is the same Russia with the world's only reliable manned launch system (the Chinese pretty much copied it), who launched the European Mars probe because their rockets are cheaper and better than ours, whose technology is keeping ISS alive while NASA tries to pull itself back together?

Blimey. They're selling themselves short.

Re:heh

[VanillaCoke420]

Indeed the Ariane is not enough for our needs, and this is why we're developing the Vega rocket for lighter payloads. Anyway, Russia had talks with ESA about joining as a member with lesser status, but Russia wanted to be an equal member.

Re:heh

[AngstAndGuitar]

You Moron.
He means that your grammar is bad. "Your" is possesive so "your naive" means "the naive that you own"
What you want is "You're" which is contracted from "You are" so that you mean "you are (You're) naive"

Re:heh

[Krach42]

Yes, but in America we view social healthcare as inferior, fair unemployment benefits as a drain on society, strikes as counter-productive actions by lazy people who want more money for what they already didn't really do, and the ability to fire without cause (and quit without cause) as a necessary protection of capatalist ideas.

I'm not saying I don't agree with you that social benefits are a good thing, just that I've had this arguement with my Dad, and other Americans many times, and they just refuse to see the justification of these expenses.

It's lunacy in my opinion, and the typical American ego, that we know what's right, and anyone who disagrees is wrong.

I guess I shouldn't get my hopes up

[Anonymous Coward]

It must be a sign of how jaded I've become .. I get no joy out of this announcement because there are probably 500 different things that will happen to reverse it or otherwise change it.

I fully expect the United States to exert effort at the request of $LARGE_COMPANY on Germany to "harmonize" with US law.

Then when/if US intellectual property law comes up for debate, the US will say "we can't have different laws than Europe, we must harmonize!"

Who knows.. I'm not optimistic.

Re:I guess I shouldn't get my hopes up

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually the US can't force the EC to do anything anymore. As someone pointed out, they have a larger economy (more people, yes... but it's still a larger economy). And frankly america has "lost face" over iraq, and this damages prestige. Prestige is hard to quantify, but if you piss everyone off over one issue... other things get harder.

So the war in iraq isn't *just* sapping millions of dollars a day from the US, you are also losing prestige. Furthermore, your prestige is also going to take a *huge* blow if you pull out of iraq and let it become a hellhole/puppetdemocracy/iran2/whatever. People will say, "look that 'superpower' can't even conquer a tiny country properly - we have nothing to fear".

So there are interesting days ahead, I for one used to believe in america as an ideal - dislike most of the people yes, but the ideal was there. You were my kin, I would have considered dying defending your shores were you under mortal threat (just as the french fought by you at your birth)... but now, I am indifferent, because not only do I dislike most americans now, but I think the american ideal has changed drastically. It is not something worth defending. Your legislators have wiped their asses on the constitution so many times you cannot read the print for the shit. And your populance has stood by and let this happen.

Now the american ideal is the american cautionary tale for how not to let your democracy fail. Some will learn from it, others will not. Life will continue.

America has left a mark on history, and it is still up for grabs as to what that mark exactly is. But right now, it's looking like a stain.

Re:I guess I shouldn't get my hopes up

[Anonymous Coward]

What exactly have you given to the world ?

Re:I guess I shouldn't get my hopes up

[toby]

not only do I dislike most americans now, but I think the american ideal has changed drastically. It is not something worth defending. Your legislators have wiped their asses on the constitution so many times you cannot read the print for the shit. And your populance has stood by and let this happen. Now the american ideal is the american cautionary tale for how not to let your democracy fail.

As an Australian, I say: AMEN to that. Our ties should be with Europe and Asia. We're getting rid of our pathetic Bush-puppet government just as soon as we can.

Re:I guess I shouldn't get my hopes up

[djplurvert]

Slashdot

nuff said

plurvert

Re:I guess I shouldn't get my hopes up

[kanenas]

>Democracy...thats the big one...

And the greeks gave big macs eh?

Re:I guess I shouldn't get my hopes up

[fluffybacon]

freedom from communism...

Wouldn't be to sure of that if I were you. While you did free the world of Soviet communism, China continues to florish, as does open source, which is after all a form of communism.

Re:I guess I shouldn't get my hopes up

[Anonymous Coward]

Hear, Hear

I used to admire America, and in some ways still do - or with the American ideal at least. For better or worse, I believe in human rights, democracy, equality and liberty.

What pisses me off is the extremely bad rap the US foreign policy has given these ideals. It is extremely difficult to preach the ideology of ``Western-styled democracy'' to others when the self-appointed global defender of democracy acts in such hypocrite ways.

I've given up on America, I just hope they will fall away gracefully without starting World War 3. Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

In the meantime, I shall take the lesson of ``eternal vigilance'' to heart and try to make sure it doesn't happen to my or other countries.

Re:I guess I shouldn't get my hopes up

[gangien]

What exactly have you given to the world ?

Me personally, not a whole lot, i'm guessing very similiar to what you've given the world. My country has given a whole hell of a lot and has been around for such a small amount of time.

Dear America,

[adept256]

Your patent laws are a train wreck.

Sincerly,

The rest of the world.

Re:Dear America,

[adept256]

I'm sure you meant 'All your patent are belong to USA'

Europe and USA

[Henrik S. Hansen]

This is an example of how countries in Europe are *not* run by large corporations, but by the people (at least compared to the US).

Re:Europe and USA

[donutello]

You are an idiot. The 959 was not street legal in the US because it had not been "certified" by the NHTSA. In order to get a car "certified", the manufacturer normally has to supply several units of the car to the NHTSA for crash testing.

This particular car was a rare and expensive model and there was no feasible way that the manufacturer could afford to supply the requisite number of cars for crash testing - nor was it necessary since the car was already certified in Europe under more stringent conditions.

All that was done in this case was that an exception was made to the letter of the rules since the car clearly met the requirements to be certified in the US. No "evil" occurred and no laws were changed to satisfy any "whims".

Re:Europe and USA

[VanillaCoke420]

Are you suggesting that the countries of EU are the least democratic countries?

Re:Europe and USA

[Talence]

I'd say that the idea of democracy first flourished in ancient Greece where philosophers were already working on these ideas about 2500 years ago.

If you're looking for "prior art" to democracy, that's where I'd go :-)

Re:Europe and USA

[York the Mysterious]

You obviously didn't read the article. IIRC from the original Autoweek article they couldn't follow the standard Department of Transportation (DOT) requirements since the car was limited production (around 250). Again if you read the article you would have noticed that the author of this letter credits Gates for being responsible for S&D (Show and Display) which allows for the import of vehicles for (you guessed it) show and display. Find the original Autoweek article. Porsche Magazine had a better one though. Very cool stuff. They did quite the nice upgrade on the car to make it meet emissions.

Re:Europe and USA

[smithmc]

Bill Gates bought a very expensive Porsche, but for whatever reason, was not legal to import into the US. What do you do when you own the most powerful corporation in the US? Why you change the laws to suit your whims. Here is a very detailed and articulate post on another site dealing with this topic (read the reply to the original post)

Uh, huh. And, of course, the issue of importing the Porsche 959 (total worldwide production ca. a whopping 220, and entirely capable of meeting the requirements which were cited as the reason for not allowing importation in the first place) is an earth-shattering issue that strikes at the very foundation of society, and which will have far-reaching implications for generations to come.

Re:Europe and USA

[plj]

Yes, corporations probably have little less control over individual politicians due to tighter limits for electoral funding. However, companies still have powerful lobbyists; Here in Finland, for example, most politicians still seem to be for SW patents, mostly due to heavy lobbying of two largest IT corps, Nokia and TeliaSonera. (Actually, according to Electronic Frontier Finland Nokia is perhaps most powerful SW-patent proposer in the whole EU.)

Re:Europe and USA

[1u3hr]

the idea of democracy for the most part (arguably) first flourished in the US, and now it's among the least democratic countries that claim a democracy...

If by "arguably", you mean that everyone with any knowledge of history would argue with it; yes.

Ancient Greece, the Icelandic Althing (930AD), Magna Carta (1215), etc... If you want to argue about degrees of democracy, when did all adults, of any race and gender get the vote in the US?

Aside from that, no argument with the rest of your post.

Re:Europe and USA

[JaredOfEuropa]

This is an example of how countries in Europe are *not* run by large corporations, but by the people (at least compared to the US).

Actually it's run by both, just like the US. In Europe, the balance swings somewhat more favorably in the direction of the people, but corporations do have a big influence. Look at the following quote on the amendments made to the original proposal on patent law, from the (supposedly politically neutral) EC website:

...but restores the overall balance between the interests of the rights holders and other parties (competitors and consumers) struck by the original Commission proposal presented in February 2002 (see IP/02/277 and MEMO/02/32).

Translation: "Ok, we decided to listen to the liberal anti-IP hippies, as well as the lobbyists for the megacorps, who provide us with so many wonderful jobs." You will get the same answer from many politicians if you challenge them on their stance in this issue, or other economic issues. The problem isn't that they keep the interests of corporations in mind, after all they do provide many with their livelihood, and the well-being of corporations does help the economy as a whole. The problem is that the politicians let the corporations tell them what exactly should be done to safeguard the well-being of those corporations, and that advice often does not serve the economy or the common good.

Funny... I thought patents were invented only to serve the common good, period. Granting privileges and protection to inventors was never a goal of the inventors of patents, but a means to the end, to encourage research and the sharing of the results, for the common good. Sadly no legislator still thinks this way.

Re:Europe and USA

[kcbrown]

This is an example of how countries in Europe are *not* run by large corporations, but by the people (at least compared to the US).

Oh, yeah? Then how do you explain the EUCD? How do you explain the EU commission's blatant disregard of its own parliament? How do you explain that this whole patent thing hasn't been dropped like a hot potato after the population clearly and unequivocally voiced its displeasure? This and the EUCD shouldn't even be an issue right now if your countries actually listened to their populations.

Countries in Europe may not be run by large corporations to the same degree that the U.S. is, but large corporations have enough influence over there that it won't be long before Europe looks just like the U.S. in that regard.

Because as it stands right now, large corporations are pushing for laws, like the EUCD, across the EU that will give them greater power. And the more power they have, the more control they'll have over your countries. So you'd better get them under control now, before it's too late (like it is in the U.S.).

Economic Advantage

[St. Arbirix]

Methinks that the EU might be a good place to look into for some fun IT work if they regard the US system like that.

Think on it: Within the EU software ideas will run wild, everyone having access to nuance inventions in their software, whilst over here in the US you won't be allowed to measure the length of a click, run an application within another, nor make an entire window transparent without getting permission from someone else (possibly paying for it).

I wonder how long it will be before free Elvis albums won't be the only product of Europe States-side corporations will try to block.

--

Up through college in the US, everything else anywhere else.

Re:Economic Advantage

[dbIII]

US you won't be allowed to measure ... without getting permission from someone else

The tricky bit would also be finding out who owns damn_obvious_idea#325267631, tracking them down and giving them money without them using you contacting them as proof that you were using their idea without paying for it proir to contact and taking you to court anyway. The bloody minded can do nasty things with the legal system, especially the tangle that is US patents.

Such a system makes the legal department very important, and slows down everthing - the extra costs involved in innovation make it less cost effective, which will lead to the import of more and more technology instead of local innovation. Possibly it was a way legal firms could get a buck out of the tech boom, but now it's just an impediment, and the USA will have to start looking for the "next big thing" since it is sabotaging it's own technology sector.

This sort of thing has been building up for years. People I know got work in encryption simply because of US laws - the company involved could not use US staff if they wanted to develop a product that banks could use for secure international transactions. The US patent system is another incentive to do the development work overseas. While this may sound good to those countries that get the work, in the long run no-one without a nasty personal agenda wants to see the US economy go down the gurgler, and the tech sector is where the USA gets it's money these days. Subsidised sugar doesn't pay the taxes, it consumes them - and Hollywood certainly doesn't pay much tax.

Re:Economic Advantage

[St. Arbirix]

You must PAY for other people's goods and services.

Do you realize that it would be possible under our current patent system to patent the process of "capitalizing all letters of specific words in a document in order to emphasize importance." Granted, there is a lot of prior art for this specific case, but the point stands. When patents are allowed on inventions that occur naturally to intuition it becomes more and more impossible to find where one has stepped over the boundaries. Our system is silly.

I'm a big fan of Ayn Rand and if her work isn't a prime example of how capitalism needs to work I don't know what is. I wish I was an expert on all of her works but I know that never in the books of hers that I have read has there ever been mention of a patent on anything. Ask Coca-Cola to let you have a look at it's patent on the coke making process and I think you'll begin to understand the important difference between the patenting of physical devices and patenting procedures.

Doesn't anybody love us anymore?

[razberry636]

I've been reading how the U.S. government has lost quite a bit of "face" lately because of the Iraq prison scandal and other things related to our presence in Iraq.

And now here we read from leaders of other nations, "Under no circumstances do we want American procedures in Europe." It seems that dissing the U.S. is going to become more regular.

I think that just a few weeks ago we might have heard the same guy say something like, "I don't think software patents are such a good idea." Or perhaps that he was giving the idea some consideration.

But now we don't seem to have the moral high ground that we used to have.

(American == bad) && (!American == good)

Re:Doesn't anybody love us anymore?

[Anonymous Coward]

It may just seem like you're noticing it now due to the recent scandals in the U.S but this has been going on way before the iraq prison scandal.

Re:Doesn't anybody love us anymore?

[Talence]

In my opinion, France is just as "bad" as the U.S. in terms of nationalistic pride and what not.... and I'm saying this as a citizen of one of their northern neighbours. I do know quite a few really cool French people though.

Re:Doesn't anybody love us anymore?

[killjoe]

As long as they drink pepsi, eat mcdonalds, listen to britney spears, run windows, and go to see shrek 2 nobody gives a shit.

They can do anything they want. As long as they buy american products we win.

Re:Doesn't anybody love us anymore?

[damian]

A lot of people have this attitude here in Europe, but I don't think thats what this is about.

The article I read about this on a german website points out what is bad about the american patent office and the patents on software which are granted there at the moment.

Another point they make is that 75% of the illegal patents in Europe are from non european countries, so there is no benefit for Europe through a lot of these patents.

Re:Doesn't anybody love us anymore?

[Vlad_the_Inhaler]

ok, read it as
"Under no circumstances do we want to repeat the mistakes the Americans made with their procedures, in Europe."
Saying the Americans got something wrong is not being anti-American, you will notice that US gun-control laws are virtually unique in the world and that has nothing to do with Iraq.

Don't panic, or at least don't be overly sensitive on an issue like this.

Re:Doesn't anybody love us anymore?

[Talence]

What's up with all the AC replies to my posts? Anyway, I will respond. Come on, I don't post anonymously, so you guys don't either. It's almost as if you're assuming there is something "bad" about your own post.

For starters, I don't agree at all with your massive xenophobic generalization. Perhaps you have only come across the kind of French people you mention. My mileage varies a LOT. Are you sure you're not one of those "Freedom Fries" people?

I think that nationalism of any kind is bad. It is a form of pride that is based on being proud of the achievements of *other* people. Most often, the people most expressive of such pride are among the least productive contributors to their country. Also, if you look at the lifespans of most people, you will probably see that their most bitter fights and disagreements are with citizens in their own country.

Any pride that is based on generalizations, false assumptions and gloating over the achievements of others deserves to be ridiculed.

Re:Doesn't anybody love us anymore?

[HenrikOxUK]

And now here we read from leaders of other nations, "Under no circumstances do we want American procedures in Europe." It seems that dissing the U.S. is going to become more regular.

You have to quote him in the correct context. Ars Technica do point out that this was said with regards to patents, not about US procedures generally.

Re:Doesn't anybody love us anymore?

[Talence]

If you're pulling in historical dislike of French people towards the U.S., then perhaps you need to visit the statue of liberty (more often).

I will agree that there is nothing essentially wrong in pride in achievement, but as you can see from my posts (which you appear to appreciate keeping track of, thanks to me being logged in), gloating about the achievements of people who happen to be born in the same country and who don't even know you is silly. The fact that people have the right to be silly does not give me the obligation of taking them seriously.

Your statements show either a lack of experience with the people you criticize or you do so intentionally. If the latter case is true, then advising you to see more of the world is indeed pointless, as then your aim is to troll. It is not a far-fetched assumption that you do not wish to be identified with your own words.

You yourself have made the argument in favour of being logged in, so I'll just agree with you on that one :-) I do appreciate the fact that you saw my cool 4 digit slashdot ID. See, true achievement is noticed by people even without gloating about it.

Re:Doesn't anybody love us anymore?

[Talence]

Aha, so now you are trying a transparent strawman fallacy. I questioned your own misguided beliefs about how E.U. citizens are educated, what their opinion about Americans is, etc. I then claimed that it you were most likely not an E.U. citizen, because if you were one, then your statements wouldn't seem so unrealistic compared to observations that anyone can make by living in a certain area. You are bending that into a "aha, so you like ALL Americans" type of statement.

If you look at my posting history, which you did, you will see that my criticism for the U.S. (as well as for the E.U.) falls into the (b) category.

You are the one using the term "stupid" on yourself. I can merely compromise and agree on that part of your self-assessment. They are not my words. Your intelligence or lack of intelligence does not shield you from not knowing what you're talking about as is evidenced by your displayed lack of understanding of the E.U. -- in fact, you apparently fail to lack understand the motivations of a significant number of people in your own country who choose to live "packed" in cities.

You are bringing the second world war into this debate. Yes, I'm glad the US got militarily involved back then. No, I am not thankful for it in the least to you personally.

I don't see what the second world war has to do with anything. I did not ask anybody and especially not you personally to militarily intervene in anything. Defeating extreme nationalism in Germany is an achievement of a coalition of many countries, including Canada, Australia, Russia, England, etc, etc. To my understanding, the U.S. even got involved in the war quite a bit later than the rest of the coalition. But, since you bring it up... yes, I do hear a lot of Americans gloating about how "they" liberated Europe, even though they were born decades after this event and are only loosely associated with it because of the country they happened to be born in.

Re:Doesn't anybody love us anymore?

[Talence]

Many times during this thread, you've mentioned how uneducated about Europeans we Americans are, and how this is borne out of xenophobia.

No, once again you are trying to divert attention away from my criticism of your points to "we Americans". I have mentioned this in at least several posts. Perhaps the problem is that the word "you", can be used both in a singular and plural form. I have clarified quite clearly several times that the singular form applied. Your beliefs about the E.U. are as inaccurate as your blind insistence that I claim that "you Americans" as a whole are uneducated about Europeans. As a site note, Mexicans, Brazilians, etc are (south-)Americans too.

You do not only hide behind "Anonymous Coward", you also try to hide behind a few hundred million people to diffuse the argument.

All the Europeans I have contact with are extremely condescending towards Americans in general.

Considering your attitude and the way you twist personal criticism into "we Americans", that does not surprise me one bit. Perhaps the American tourists that walk by here every day have a different view.

If you really identify yourself with your country of residence so much that any criticism pertaining to your personal views automatically applies to all residents in the entire country, then perhaps you are indeed very nationalistic.

From the get-go, you posted with the assumption that a) all Americans are dumb, and b) all Americans are xenophobes. You're too indoctrinated to believe otherwise now, I suppose. ... in your world view .... other than my nationality AND you were calling me a xenophobe. I see now that you're incapable of believing anything else about Americans.

See my point above about you hiding behind "all Americans". It's nonsense. If you even are American at all (which I'm beginning to doubt), the issue I may have is with the various nonsense you claim. Your main retort seems to be "boo hoo, he's attacking ALL Americans". No kid, just you.

I said as much myself. Why anyone would choose the city over the country is beyond me.

Just like any accurate understanding of the topic at hand is beyond you. Exactly my point.

Who's setting up the strawman now?

You are, but I cut you off before it had a chance to materialize. Unlike your other strawman where you paint me as anti-American for disagreeing with your uninformed view of the E.U. and education therein.

In light of what I've just revealed to you about yourself, ...

What I "revealed" is your strawman and does not exist.

isn't a result of the waves of anti-Americanism coming from Europe?

Ah, you retort by going "they started it!!!". Nice try, but alas.

It's an amusing conversation. It's sort of going like this:

AC: The E.U. is so-and-so
T: No, it's not. You probably don't even live here.
AC: Indeed I don't and I'm glad.
T: It's obvious from your statements that you don't live here.
AC: AHA, so ALL Americans are uninformed!?!? I am perfectly right.
T: No, I didn't say that. I just criticized you and not hundreds of millions of other people I don't know.
AC: I can understand why you say that, you're indoctrinated to hate us Americans and everything we say
T: ???

Re:Doesn't anybody love us anymore?

[Talence]

Okay, now it's obvious you are trolling.

... and resorted to attacks based on nationality... how unfounded your beliefs about Americans are

You are unable to read. Anyone following this thread can see that a) you are the one making/starting with general unfounded beliefs in Europeans and b) any "attacks" were against you and you alone.

You are a troll. Go back into your troll cave.

Re:europs is finally free

[talornin]

Argh! As you Americans demand not to be held responsible for your forefathers keeping slaves, and as todays Germans can in no way be held accountable to Hitlers actions, as should todays Americans sit down and shut the fuck up about Hitler. You did nok keep slaves, therefore you shall not be responsible for it, you did not save uss from Hitler, therefore you can not claim respect and honor for that.

Patent# 6,705,905 Sea-land-sky craft

[Anonymous Coward]

looks like you were right...hovercraft is patented: .... sea-land-sky craft capable of navigating on the water, running on the land and flying in the air (that is, climbing vertically, flying horizontally and hovering in the air) usable in a new transportation system 1. The sea-land-sky craft comprises rotating wings rotatable in opposite directions on their centers. Mounting shafts .....

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1= PT O2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=/netahtml/search-adv.htm&r=1&f=G &l=50&d=PTXT&p=1&S1=(hovering+AND+car)&OS=hovering +AND+car&RS=(hovering+AND+car)

How about the eternal optimist?

[joggle]

I'm hoping that this will turn some heads in the US Congress and start making them more open-minded towards patent reform. I can dream, can't I?

Unclosed double quotes?

[AnuradhaRatnaweera]

The double quote in

A patent must be "a fair reward...

doesn't seem to be closed anywhere until the end of the post.

So sue me......

[Sv1ad]

What about buying some shares in the US company who's patents your EU company would infringe if you sold your stuff in the US?

Re:Meanwhile, in France...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah I'm not french either. And although I like to have a dig at them occasionally the fact that I know it is probably americans modding this up (and who created tehe video) just ruins it. We english have been at war with the frogs and dissing them out for much longer and have a right to this humour.

Whereas you americans.... The french helped you fight us off, the french bled and died fighting for your freedom. That makes any jibe by an american toward them (ala the republicans not long ago) a spew of filth.

Disgrace. The french not supporting (i.e. verbal) your quite questionable war equates to treachery? How about remembering the guys who died for you, and died for an ideal.

fuck you, you stinking fucks. this is where anti-americanism stems from. right here, from your stinking ignorance and disrespect.

Wakeup Call

[Anonymous Coward]

Germany will NOT vote against SWPATs and probably never will. ArsTechica fell for an uninformed Heise news where the reporter was not listening carefully.

What they said is the same they always said: "We will not vote for it." -- which means they are planning to abstain, not vote against it.

And they are abstaining for the wrong reasons, also.

The babbling about "not wanting US like situation" is entirely insubstantial. Nothing but hot air to distract from the fact that they are indeed working on total patentability.

So do not misunderestimate the German BMJ.

They are are among the hardest hardliners.

The FSFE was more informed -- and issued a statement to ask them to actually walk the path that the news see them walking on:
http://mail.fsfeurope.org/pipermail/press-release/ 2004q2/000059.html

Re:Wakeup Call

[Vlad_the_Inhaler]

Der Spiegel (article in German) does not agree with you. Maybe they also listened to Heise but it does not look like it.

Re:Wakeup Call

[kompiluj]

Kinda strange, but DO YOU READ what you cite?
Quoting:
Last Wednesday Elmar Hucko, head of a government department in the Ministry of Justice, announced at an event in Berlin that the Federal Government would vote against the controversial software patent directive of the Council of Ministers of the European Union

Re:Wakeup Call

[Halo1]

What they said is the same they always said: "We will not vote for it." -- which means they are planning to abstain, not vote against it.

That is correct. But it's almost as good. We have to break the qualified majority in the Council, and Germany has 10 votes of the 36 we need to do that.

So do not misunderestimate the German BMJ.

They are are among the hardest hardliners.

But this is plain wrong. We have a leaked copy of an internal Council document. Look at the footnotes. Germany was at that point in time (3rd May) one of the few that insisted on article 2 of the European Parliament. This article defines "computer-implemented invention" and "technical contribution" so that a "computer-implemented algorithm to do anything" can never fulfill either definition.

I'm sure...

[bullitB]

...FhG and other groups that receive government funding in Germany will be giving up their all their math- and software-related patents, too. After all, such a ruling would put Dolby, for instance, at something of a disadvantage in Europe, wouldn't it?

Re:I'm sure...

[mikis]

It already has. As I remember, Americans chose Dolby for HDTV, but Europeans went with MPEG. Same with DVDs, although most DVDs I've seen are Dolby or DTS.

Dear Rest of the World

[Anonymous Coward]

We own the patent on train wrecks and your post is infringing on that patent.

Re:europs is finally free

[LnxAddct]

Check your history and see how many people were killed so that the current inhabitants of your country could live there. The original americans (not the native americans) were only doing what they were doing because thats how it was in europe.
Regards,
Steve

Lobby

[Vitanova]

National parliaments do matter. You can still send e-mails to fi the parliament's commission for economic affairs. They can then put some pressure on the minister (secretary of economic affairs). Do create some stir. Especially if you are in one of the 10 new members too.

Doesn't Europe have software patents already?

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe I'm ignorant, but I thought patents applicable to software algorithms (e.g. RSA, GIF, and MP3) could be filed for in European countries.

For example, here are some of Fraunhofer's patents that are relevant to MP3:
(da list)

Does the term "software patent" refer only to things like translucent windows, and not include more technical matters like MP3 and RSA?

Or is the idea (I hope!) that such patents would no longer be allowed? Or maybe that the EU would just not pressure all of its members to respect them?

Re:Doesn't Europe have software patents already?

[Vlad_the_Inhaler]

My understanding is that you can submit all the patents you want. Until the EU changes the rules, they can't be enforced.

I read an article in German yesterday detailing why the German delegates changed their minds. Someone had pointed them at some of the more ludicrous patents and made it clear to them just what sort of stuff was being patented and what the effects would be.

Re:Doesn't Europe have software patents already?

[jrumney]

Current interpretation of EU patent law's exception for software is that "being software" is not enough to give something "technical purpose", but if you can show technical purpose besides being software, you can still get a patent. Something like Amazon's one-click patent is a business method implemented in software, neither of which would qualify it under current EU patent law, so that's the sort of patent that the law change the Germans are voting against is trying to legalize.

Re:Doesn't Europe have software patents already?

[flossie]

Maybe I'm ignorant, but I thought patents applicable to software algorithms (e.g. RSA, GIF, and MP3) could be filed for in European countries.

Article 52(1) and (2) of the European Patent Convention:

(1) European patents shall be granted for any inventions which are susceptible of industrial application, which are new and which involve an inventive step.

(2) The following in particular shall not be regarded as inventions within the meaning of paragraph 1:

(a) discoveries, scientific theories and mathematical methods;

(b) aesthetic creations;

(c) schemes, rules and methods for performing mental acts, playing games or doing business, and programs for computers;

(d) presentations of information.

The mathematical methods and programs for computers parts both rule out patenting of computer algorithms. The European Patent Office may have granted many patents for these things (in violation of the Convention) but that doesn't mean that they would be enforceable in court.

I think it's the double standards

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the main reason is: you set a lot of rules, then refuse to follow them yourself.

Examples: nuclear weapons pact, bioweapons pacts, chemical weapons pacts. You use your power position in the UN wrongly. You request following the Geneva treaty for people who have been imprisoned by your enemies, yet you set up concentration camps to Guantanamo and beat people to death in the Iraqi prison you control. Then you cry foul when a citizen is dramatically killed (Berg). And don't even think all of this started with 9/11. No, no.. it had been going on for a longer time. You have to go back to the beginning of the previous century to see all the details and find the reasons.

Whenever something happens to you, you cry foul, although there's a good chance you have already done something similar to some other country.

I think such double standards are the main reason of dislike towards USA. Using the power position to set rules for other, and then ruthlessly exploiting and ignoring them.

And remember, most people hate the country, and what it represents, and especially the government, but have no quarrels with the ordinary citizen.

I am posting this anonymously because it will draw a lot of flak from people who do not read this post with thought and consider this a flamebait. It's not. You can think yourself if the opinions in this post are correct or not and could this be the answer to your question.

Re:I think it's the double standards

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree with what you said but I think there is a little more to that. I belive a basic misunderstanding between americans and "other people" (btw, I am european) is that when americans and "non americans" refer to "America" they refer to two different things. Where an american, may refer to things like their friends, the place they grew up into, where they got the chance to study and develop a business and they got theyr shoot at the stars, a non american sees America as a country who moves in the international world to defend their interests, sometimes in a fair way, other times not. I am sure an american reader would be blunt to hear that America is not for capitalism when it is a matter of dealing with other countries, as it supports "free competition" often just when their products are competitive and hide behind "grater national interests" otherwise. America's goes to IRaq because Saddam was a dictator, but wecomes Pakistany leader as a buddy, The EU IT market is by all means open (getting a visa is a matter of paperwork) to US contractors, where the US market, by all practical means is closed to Europeans. I have other examples but you got the idea.
All said and done, USA is a democracy, that means America's attitude towards "the others" is ultimately a responsability of american citizens taken as a whole, if u understand this, u can have an understanding of the resons why somebody around the planet can be "kind of disappointed" with american people (taken as a whole). Of course this should not translate into hatres against this or that american citizen (btw, I have plenty of american friends) but I am writing this from a confortable position, nice house, good job. If I was writing from a palestinian camp (just to name one example) my view could indeed be more radical.

Italy too?

[xlyz]

Italian Minister for Technological Innovation, that is not entitled to vote ( DOH! ), has strongly recommended his collegues partecipating to vote against as well

Re:Meanwhile, in France...

[killjoe]

Wow. An entire web site dedicated t hating france. The irony is rich however and the link you point to accuses the french of hating israel. I guess to them it's OK to hate one country but not the other.

[meta] time for an EU icon?

[CComMack]

Just a suggestion: might it not be wise to create a topic and icon for matters pertaining to EU law, in parallel to the Stars and Stripes icon often seen on YRO stories pertaining to US law? I for one am finding the many "earlier Slashdot stories" referenced in the text of every EU software patent story one reads nowadays to be a tedious method of threading.

And before I get modded down by the Europe bashers, let me disclose that I'm an American who finds it edifying to keep up with events across the pond, and have no interest in the "Is Slashdot too Americentric" debate.

Re:[meta] time for an EU icon?

[Wastl]

I completely agree.

Sebastian

Re:[meta] time for an EU icon?

[VanillaCoke420]

The stars doesn't represent the member nations. The circle of golden stars represent the solidarity and harmony among the European peoples. There are twelve stars because, according to the EU website (go to FAQ, then "The EU at a glance" and then "Flag"): "There are twelve stars because the number twelve is traditionally the symbol of perfection, completeness and unity. The flag will therefore remain unchanged regardless of future EU enlargements."

Re:[meta] time for an EU icon?

[chris_sawtell]

Just a suggestion: might it not be wise to create a topic and icon for matters pertaining to EU law, in parallel to the Stars and Stripes icon often seen on YRO stories pertaining to US law?

Yes indeed, Here are the details about the flag, and here's the Icon

Voting no?

[bo0ork]

Why would they vote no? Did the lobbyists run out of money? I doubt they're trying to do the Right Thing. Politicians aren't known for that.

Re:Voting no?

[Halo1]

80% of the jobs in the IT-sector in Germany are in SMEs (Small and Medium sized Enterprises). Those companies don't have the money to obtain a defensive or offensive patent portfolio. The lobbyists did not run out of money, but out of lies to refute hard facts like that.

And politicians (in general) do not just do anything told to them by the highest bidder. In cases like this, they do what they think the "economical majority" wants. We have simply shown them that companies like Siemens, Microsoft and IBM are not the economic majority here, but the minority.

(the following is not directed at you) It's easier though to think that you can't do anything about it anyway, call yourself a realist and just moan about how corrupt everything is. That's of course a self-fulfilling prophecy (which is not to say that there isn't way too much corruption, but at the same time it's complete bullshit that you can't change anything either).

Pretty easy

[soccerisgod]

If the german government choses to not vote in favor of this, then only because they're sure their vote is not needed in order to have this passed.

Elections for european parliament are coming up. That's why. Don't be fooled for one minute by the german government: they voted against the iraq war even though they probably wanted it - to win elections. They don't critize the US for what happened in iraq recently, but are killing themselves to tell everyone how aweful the beheading of one US citizen was - to get a permanent seat in the UN security council.

Don't trust them. They WANT this law. They fought for it for years. They're just opportunistic, that's all.

Re:Pretty easy

[DanBrusca]

This has nothing at all to do with the European elections. 99.99% of the electorate probably don't even know what software patents are, let alone give a damn.

Re:Pretty easy

[soccerisgod]

Probably not where you come from. Here the number of people who does care is bigger. The point is that lobby groups are generating a lot of negative publicity right now, and that'll probably stop now - at no cost to the government.

I welcome you to write what you think is the reason though - I'm curious...

Re:Pretty easy

[anshil]

Well ain't this the very idea of democracy? To force the leaders to do that what the people want, and not to follow their own needs?

Re:Pretty easy

[PetWolverine]

they voted against the iraq war even though they probably wanted it - to win elections.

Sounds like democracy to me. The people opposed the war, thus the country opposed the war. Some politicians got reelected by being responsive to the wishes of the populous. That's how it's supposed to happen.

Re:Pretty easy

[ahillen]

Elections for european parliament are coming up. That's why.

Yes. And, I mean, everybody knows that software patents is a hotly debated topic where the average german/european voter is emotionally very attached to, right? Right.

they voted against the iraq war even though they probably wanted it - to win elections.

I don't have any reason to believe that the german government really wanted the war. And knowing the political history of the current ruling parties in Germany, doubly so.

Re:Pretty easy

[soccerisgod]

You have to distinguish between reasoning and true motive here. Don't get me wrong - it's a good thing they opposed it, but I'm sure that if elections weren't coming up, things might have turned out very differently. Just a few years earlier, they had no trouble going to war in Kosovo, where as we now know things were just as shady as they are in the Iraq war.

Re:Pretty easy

[soccerisgod]

Yes. And, I mean, everybody knows that software patents is a hotly debated topic where the average german/european voter is emotionally very attached to, right? Right.

This might not be a topic for a great many people, but what else does the SPD/Greens have to offer? And if one comment made during a press conference can sway a couple 10K people to vote for them, what harm does that do? I'm not saying they're trying to win the election with this alone, but they are desperate. Their list of accomplishments is very short, and their support has declined steadily in the last few years.

I don't have any reason to believe that the german government really wanted the war. And knowing the political history of the current ruling parties in Germany, doubly so.

May I remind you that the history of the current ruling party of Germany includes two wars fought without hesitation?

Re:Pretty easy

[KlausBreuer]

>they voted against the iraq war even though they probably wanted it

Um. I'd hate to get into yet another one of these political flamewars, but why exactly would they have wanted that war?
The only one profiting from it is the USA. Why would even a rather stupid gouverment have wanted that war as well?

And the germans didn't critizise what happened in Iraq? I'm afraid that's rather news to me, and I happen to live in germany. Public (and, yes, political) outcry against that profit-driven brainless mess is quite loud.

Otherwise - yes, you are perfectly correct. Politicians are janus-faced bastards, and will do absolutely anything to get elected.
Which, btw, is why you can see US presidents starts wars before elections - so far it has always gotten them re-elected.

PS: Whoo, after reading my post I think I have to add something: I used to live in the US. I like the people quite a bit. It's your leadership I can't stand.

Re:Pretty easy

[soccerisgod]

The only one profiting from it is the USA. Why would even a rather stupid gouverment have wanted that war as well?

The point I was trying to make is the one you picked up later in your reply - that if it had been to their advantage - economically or otherwise - they would have supported and even joint the action. For some 'sound' reasoning, ask politicians such as Blair/Berlusconi/Aznar.

PS: Whoo, after reading my post I think I have to add something: I used to live in the US. I like the people quite a bit. It's your leadership I can't stand.

Don't look at me, I live in Germany as well ;) I feel the same though.

Re:Pretty easy

[ahillen]

May I remind you that the history of the current ruling party of Germany includes two wars fought without hesitation?

Well, I remember the war against Yugoslavia (which was the other one?), if I recall correctly the whole process was already started before the government changed (including Germany agreeing to take part if it should come to a war). Not that I want to defend the current government, I'm not to fond of them, and there surely was some irony the way the SPD/Greens were involved in this war just after they came to power. Nevertheless, I think the situations are quite different, and I can say many bad things about the government, but I don't think that they secretely were in favour of the Iraq war while publicly oposing it...

Re:Pretty easy

[soccerisgod]

(which was the other one?)

Afghanistan.

Re:Pretty easy

[ahillen]

Afghanistan.

You are right. I forgot about the involvement of the KSK special forces against the taliban.

Re:Pretty easy

[RickHunter]

Actually, I think you'll find that much of the backing for this law comes from Ireland. Ireland has few home-grown software companies and a lot of dev houses for American software companies. AOL and, IIRC, Microsoft both have massive development houses over there thanks to labour laws that make Ireland very friendly for them. If they can get software patents rammed through in Europe, they can safely relocate more of their workforce and operations there.

On the other hand, Germany and France have a lot more home-grown software companies. Especially open-source software companies. These have been cranking out some innovations (for example, a lot of crypto work's done in Germany these days, because their government is actually friendly to it, as opposed to the US), but have been held in check due to all the ambiguity over patents over there. Economically, Germany and France have everything to gain from prohibiting software patents and nothing to lose.

Re:Pretty easy

[Halo1]

You have to distinguish between reasoning and true motive here.

Please see this reply of mine to someone else in this thread. The true motive is quite simple in this case, and does not require conspiracy theories or hidden interests.

Re:Pretty easy

[GnuDiff]

Funny to see the parent of my note at score 2, while the irrelevent conspiration theory parent of parent being 4.

Re:Pretty easy

[Alsee]

Someone mod parent down. It is a wild counter-factual rant.

German law and german courts stand in consistant opposition to software patents. Refference.

organisation and calculation programs for computing machines used for disposition tasks, during whose execution a computing machine of known structure is used in the prescribed way, are not patentable. This is the first and most often quoted of a series of decisions of the BGH's 10th Civil Senate, which explain why computer-implementable rules of organisation and calculation (programs for computers) are not technical inventions

The German system states that inventions are about controllable forces of nature. Exactly what we need to fix broken patent law.

-

Re:Pretty easy

[soccerisgod]

You seem to have missed the point completely. This is not about what is, it is what is about to be.

Re:Pretty easy

[Alsee]

If the german government choses to not vote in favor of this, then only because they're sure their vote is not needed in order to have this passed.

False.

They WANT this law. They fought for it for years.

False and false. Germany is opposed to software patents.

This is not about what is, it is what is about to be.

The Council is radically pro-software patents, but Parliment has absolutely rejected software patents. It is bouncing back and forth at the moment, but as I understand it Parliment gets the final vote. Either Parliment is going to pass a directive prohibiting software patents, or they are going to vote no on a pro-software patent text. At best we win, at worst it's a stalemate and no directive gets passed. In that case the European Patent office keeps issuing software patents, and the German patent office (and hopfully others) continue to throw them out as invalid.

-

Re:Pretty easy

[soccerisgod]

Read this

Re:Pretty easy

[Alsee]

Is there an english version? I tried two internet translastions, but it was still unreadable.

As I've been following the stories, everything I've seen about Germany is that the German judges and court system have been consistantly rejecting and ripping apart the idea of patenting software.

-

Re:Pretty easy

[soccerisgod]

Is there an english version? I tried two internet translastions, but it was still unreadable.

Running it through google would have been my translation, but since that obviously didn't yield usable results, I'll give you a summary. It basically says that some members of the ruling parties opposed this new law, but that nevertheless the parties agreed they wanted this law -- especially the justice minister.

As for courts rejecting patenting software under the current legislation, this is true but not entirely relevant since we're talking about the EU instanting a regulation that requires every member country to adjust local laws to this regulation. This means courts no longer have any basis to rule against software patents.

And now the shit is going south. This is gonna mean a damn lot of trouble.

Re:Pretty easy

[KlausBreuer]

> In what way does USA profit from that horrendously expensive war?

Arms. Supplies. Support. Getting your firms work there. Lots of it.

>Even as a European, I sure hope he knows what he's doing

He is. His friends love him, as do the companies. Who cares about the population?

Anyway, way off topic. Let's cut here - take it to email if you prefere ;)

This is great!

[Phidoux]

I just wish that other countries will now follow the example that the Germans have set.

Big picture

[12357bd]

Good! The experiment continues, now we'll have software industry with & without patents in each side of Atlantic.

Monopolies (US economy) vs Regulations (EU politics).

In the long run EU-US / US-EU will have to synchronice not only patent systems, but also legal and fiscal proceedings. The first step is already done with the euro / dollar semi-parity, it seems the rest will follow as soon as world can accept.

What's in a sig?

Re:Big picture

[boffy_b]

Whilst it does sound rather conspiratorial, but I too have been suspicious since the Euro was introduced at ~$1, and what with the proposed EU constitution, I do feel we'r heading for a United States of Europe, with the USE residing firmly in the pocket of USA.

Now does anyone know where I can buy a Faraday passport holder?

Re:Big picture

[12357bd]

Not sure about conspiration, but rather plain history.

South Europe (Spain/Portugal) massacred Central/South America, North Europe (France/England) massacred North America. Early US history (constitution/presidents/simbols) is filled with explicit masonic references.

What's in a sig?

Re:Big picture

[Anonymous Coward]

but I too have been suspicious since the Euro was introduced at ~$1,

The Euro was introduced at an exchange rate of around 1 Euro~ 1.17 Dollar which was the value of the ECU (European Currency Unit) on the last day before the Euro introduction (December 31st 1998). The ECU was introduced as a kind of meta currency around 1979.

Re:Big picture

[12357bd]

EU is an unincorporated area of the US and they better get in line with our Intellectual Property and Security "procedures" or Wall Street will slap them down until they do.

Father and son, son and father. National pride?. It doesn't matter, both are just one family!.

What's in a sig?/p>

Re:Meanwhile, in France...

[morganjharvey]

The french helped you fight us off, the french bled and died fighting for your freedom. That makes any jibe by an american toward them (ala the republicans not long ago) a spew of filth.

Geez. I'm glad someone finally "gets it." I know that we're taught the whole "French saved our asses" thing in school growing up, but for some reason almost everyone I know is more than ready to make fun of 'em if they get the chance. Just makes you wonder about all the things in DC named "Lafayette." Sure, it was 200 some odd years ago, but still.

fuck you, you stinking fucks. this is where anti-americanism stems from. right here, from your stinking ignorance and disrespect.

You do have to admit though: It's kinda sad that everyone in the world knows why people hate us except us.

As a nice coincidence, my fortune at the bottom of the page right now reads:

I will follow the good side right to the fire, but not into it if I can help it. -- Michel Eyquem de Montaigne

Oh, and don't forget that they have much better food.

WIPO/TRIPS actually FORBID software patents!

[Halo1]

suppose if Germany decides not to support the European Commission on changes in the law to software patents, then nobody can sway them otherwise because they are a sovereign state and don't have to comply with what the WIPO or the EC says.

First of all, as member of the EU, Germany has to comply with EU directives that are passed. Next, WIPO does not only not require software patents, it even forbids them (just like TRIPS).

The excuse used by software patent proponents regarding TRIPs, is article 27:

Patents shall be available for any inventions, whether products or processes, in all fields of technology, provided that they are new, involve an inventive step andare capable of industrial application.

This text however explicitly uses terms which are defined nowhere else in the treaty (like "invention", "field of technology" and "inventive step"), so that signing members can define these terms themselves in such a way that they fit best in their existing laws.

According to article 52 of the the European Patent Convention, a computer program can never constitute an invention. And in the Parliament proposal of the directive, "field of technology" is defined in such a way that computer programs, maths, business methods etc do cannot belong to one (even if they're executed on a computer).

And on top of that, there's articles 7 TRIPs which is interpreted by the WTO as that the measures as implemented must ...

.. contribute to the promotion of technological innovation and to the transfer and dissemination of technology, to the mutual advantage of producers and users of technological knowledge and in a manner conducive to social and economic welfare

Most evidence points to the contrary as far as software patents are concerned.

So TRIPs does not require software patents, how does it forbid them?

Article 10 of the TRIPs treaty states:

Computer programs, whether in source or object code, shall be protected as literary works under the Berne Convention (1971).

As opposed to what a first reading would suggest, namely that this simply means that copyright protection must be available for computer programs, this article goes further. The WTO states on its website regarding article 10.1:

The obligation to protect computer programs as literary works means e.g. that only those limitations that are applicable to literary works may be applied to computer programs.

Since patent protection is unavailable for literary works, it can't be available for computer programs either according to TRIPs. Proponents of software patents often counter this using their interpretation of "computer program as such", which turns "computer programs with a further technical effect" into "computer-implemented inventions", which in turn would supposedly not be affected by this exclusion.

This interpretation is however invalid due to article 4 of the EU Software Copyright directive from 1991. This article states that a computer program as literary work includes the following (emphasis mine):

... the permanent or temporary reproduction of a computer program by any means and in any form, in part or in whole. Insofar as loading, displaying, running, transmission or storage ...

The WIPO Copyright Treaty also contains applicable clauses (article 10):

(1) Contracting Parties may, in their national legislation, provide for limitations of or exceptions to the rights granted to authors of literary and artistic works under this Treaty in certain special cases that do not conflict with a normal expl

Disgraceful

[mccalli]

Then you cry foul when a citizen is dramatically killed (Berg).

Yes. And quite rightly so. A beheading is not a 'crying foul' matter, nor is it an excuse to score anti-US points on a tech bulletin board (provided to you, of course, by the people you seem to hate so much, the Americans). Total revulsion is surely the only acceptable reaction - two wrongs don't make a right. Accordingly, I have to regard your cheap shot as despicably low.

I'm not American and am drastically against many recent changes in the US, but please - a sense of perspective. I have many American friends, I have even more American friendly acquaintences (online forums, work etc). - it is not an evil nation. It shouts about itself rather too much and its current leadership are, at least in my opinion, somewhere between here and Alpha Centauri in terms of their grasp on reality but you're forgetting the people themselves. They'll correct it eventually, don't worry.

Cheers,
Ian (British)

Re:Disgraceful

[Anonymous Coward]

>>And remember, most people hate the country, and what it represents, and especially the government, but have no quarrels with the ordinary citizen.

>(provided to you, of course, by the people you seem to hate so much, the Americans)

Someone can't read.

Re:Disgraceful

[Captain_Chaos]

They'll correct it eventually, don't worry.

Your post is spot on and I agree with it wholeheartedly, except that last sentence. I used to think that too, but lately I've started to have doubts about it. They seem to be heading in the wrong direction awfully fast this time (faster than ever before in their history?), and considering that half (!) of the people who could be bothered to vote voted for the clown who's currently in office, and most others voted for a guy who's only marginally better (although of course he did invent the Internet,) they currently don't seem to be capable of making much of a fist against this development.

I'm seriously wondering whether the US isn't heading for a fall of Roman proportions. I'm not saying that to bash the US; I have American friend, and I like Americans in general. I'm saying it because since the last few months I genuinely believe it to be a possibility.

Re:Disgraceful

[frank_adrian314159]

I'm seriously wondering whether the US isn't heading for a fall of Roman proportions. I'm not saying that to bash the US; I have American friend, and I like Americans in general. I'm saying it because since the last few months I genuinely believe it to be a possibility.

I hope to God not. Not only because I live in the US, but also because I think that the effective removal of ~1/4-1/3 of the GWP would have detrimental effects on a lot of other places on this planet that I admire.

The sad news is that I really don't think there's much of a way to prevent it. We really have reached a point where the economy is global (for better or worse) and, right now, a large part of the developing world is mainly turning out widgets and services that have few markets other than the US. Could the EU and the rest of the world cope with the price consequences of an influx of PC's if the US market died? Think of this multiplied by every other trade good that the US imports. Could China's economy last long if all the workers currently employed turning out crap for US markets suddenly lost their jobs?

I also fear is that this decline is inevitable. There is no global institution to effectively moderate global economic swings, nor would our current leaders allow their fiscal policies to be limited by the same even if there were one. As such, I think that the US may have used its globalization policies to reduce its national business cycles only to create the stage for a coming global economic bust that will take a long time to repair (you may now send me my tinfoil hat).

Re:No....

[Halo1]

that is what Europe is, my friend, and I don't know which is worse.

Because you apparently don't know Europe. Germany did not take this position because some government official thought that would be a good idea. In fact, without our input, they'd probably support software patents (just like several other countries which are now against instead od pro).

You seem to think that Europe only has communist or fascist governments which decide everything on their own without any possibility to influence them.

bullshit - there is already a patent law in europe

[struberg]

But it is currently not possible to patent trivia things!
The current law is more like an analogy to the copyright of written books. So it is currently NOT possible to simply copy a software programm, and it is NOT possibly to infringe a patented mechanism!

Remember that one of the most important patents - the mpeg layer 3 better known as mp3 - is from Germany, from the Frauenhofer Institute. And they were already able to protect their discovery with an european patent.

So all people who compare europe with the copy-all situation like practiced in some parts of asia simply speaks bullshit!

So if anyone claims that is is possibly to clone Windows in europe SIMPLY LIES!

On the other way it would be practically impossible for to simple single person to code a small piece of software without being frightend to be sued by a large company.

2 days ago there was a conference/meeting against software patens - and guess what: the main speaker was an american programmer: Richard Stallman himself!

best regards, strub
vienna, austria (mozart but NO kangaroos)

EU vs Great Britain or US?

[Anonymous Coward]

We in the US think that this is really a poke at the US, but if I recall correctly, aren't the big pushers for the software patents really from Great Britain?

Sure, the example model to NOT implement is the US, but the country most likely to push the US model for software patents into the EU would be Great Britain, methinks.

Now, will Great Britain do an end-run around the process like it was trying to do before?

I hope that France goes against software patents, as well. Go France.

Here is one USian hoping that Europe sticks this one up my country's ass, covered with habanero sauce to boot.

Would it not be ironic if Switzerland (home country of CERN...) votes for them?

Re:EU vs Great Britain or US?

[Halo1]

We in the US think that this is really a poke at the US, but if I recall correctly, aren't the big pushers for the software patents really from Great Britain?

Both are big pushers. The UK Patent Office inside the EU, the US as their backup. If we can get the decision postponed on Tuesday, it's possible that we could finally start making things change for the good in the UK as well. Some people are finally getting past the UKPTO civil servants and through to the politicians themselves.

Would it not be ironic if Switzerland (home country of CERN...) votes for them?

Switzerland is not in the EU, so doesn't have anything to say about this.

take a look at the trade balance.(nt)

[ViVeLaMe]

(nt means nothing there.)

Re:Meanwhile, in France...

[gangien]

The french helped you fight us off, the french bled and died fighting for your freedom. That makes any jibe by an american toward them (ala the republicans not long ago) a spew of filth.

gee.. what was that war that happened in the 1940's mmm....

People be anti america all you want, by doing so you are being quite american.

Belgium will vote against as well!

[andr0meda]

Ok, so that's a small country, but still.. there is some political momentum to vote against. If we can convince one mor member state to vote against, the vote will be dismissed.

Re:Belgium will vote against as well!

[Anonymous Coward]

source?

I'm not denying that it's true, but you can't just cite things like this without proof.

Re:Belgium will vote against as well!

[andr0meda]

Well, I wrote to our government about my concerns and the concerns of the FFII, and this is the reply I got.

[..]

Niettemin hou ik er aan de krachtlijnen van het toenmalige
Belgische standpunt in herinnering te brengen. Het is immers
niet uitgesloten dat het Iers voorzitterschap het punt in de
loop van de maand mei op de Raad agendeert, en in dat geval zal
België naar deze krachtlijnen teruggrijpen.

[..]

De Belgische Regering bevestigt haar standpunt dat het voorstel
van richtlijn moet toelaten om octrooibescherming te verlenen
aan in computer geïmplementeerde uitvindingen. Deze
octrooibescherming kan zich echter niet uitstrekken tot de
bescherming van software "als dusdanig": een duidelijke link
met een technische omgeving, overeenkomstig de jurisprudentie
van het Europees Octrooibureau, moet aanwezig zijn.

De Belgische Regering vraagt uitdrukkelijk dat met de
amendementen van het Europees Parlement rekening wordt gehouden
voor wat betreft de nadere bepaling van de noties "technische
omgeving" en "technisch gebied", onder andere in die zin dat
een octrooieerbaarheid onmogelijk is voor software die
rechtstreeks of onrechtstreeks de automatische uitwisseling,
opslag en beheer van gegevens betreft.

[..]

Tot slot vraagt de Belgische Regering uitdrukkelijk dat het
Europees Parlement het voorstel van richtlijn verder bespreekt
en dat de geciteerde amendementen van het Europees Parlement
grondig worden bestudeerd en heroverwogen.

Met vriendelijke groet,

Fientje Moerman

(Federal Minister of Work)

Your move.

Re:bullshit - there is already a patent law in eur

[Halo1]

But it is currently not possible to patent trivia things!

That is incorrect. Just look at this patented webshop.

Remember that one of the most important patents - the mpeg layer 3 better known as mp3 - is from Germany, from the Frauenhofer Institute. And they were already able to protect their discovery with an european patent.

With several European Patents actually. This is the basic one:

Digital coding process for transmitting and/or storing acoustic signals, specifically music signals, comprising the following steps:

• N samples of the acoustic signal are converted into M spectral coefficients;
• said M spectral coefficients are subjected to quantisation at a first level;
• after coding by means of an entropic encoder the number of bits required to represent all the quantized spectral coefficients is checked;
• when the required number of bits does not correspond to a specified number of bits quantization and coding are repeated in subsequent steps, each at a modified quantization level, until the number of bits required for representation reaches the specified number of bits, and
• additionally to the data bits the required quantization level is transmitted and/or stored.

As you can see, this is a patent not just on mp3 compression, but on any audio compression scheme which iteratively tries to compress an audio sample until it fits in a pre-determined number of bits.

The problem with these European software patents is that they are currently in general not enforceable in a court. The reason is that the European Patent Convention forbids software patents. The European Patent Office is an independent institution however, which gets its funding from granting patents, so it creatively reinterpreted that convention. That does not change the law nor the opinion of the courts, however (except for the UK).

You're right however that we have strong copyright laws, and that simply copying other people's code is not allowed (unless they agree, like in case of GPL'd code), not even if it's just a few lines.

Can't you use NDAs?

[r6144]

IANAL, but you should be able to rely on NDAs to make the company keep the thing secret, and vice versa (so that the company can get a monopoly if you want) and there should be something else in the agreement stating that profits are to be shared, etc.

In this way the government is not involved, and you can do it in any way you and the company like. You just have to decide what to disclose to the company before you sign the agreement.

private systems are not always the best solution

[xlyz]

Socialism is all about looting the productive. Without a capitalist economy to loot, it's all downhill spiral. Every industry that gets nationalized will slowly bleed to death; with medicine, it's we who will bleed.

wrong!

download the world health chart program and check correlation beetween private vs public health care systems and indicators like child survival, life expectancy, and so on.

check also the cost of health care vs GDP.

pure private health care systems seems to be less effective and less efficient as well

"Software GDP"

[Max Threshold]

How can you define a "software GDP" when a U.S. company with a patent portfolio can suddenly declare that a few trivial lines of code are worth, say, three billion dollars?

Software is not a tangible product and it has zero value. Only the service of producing and maintaining it has value. The EU is on the verge of acknowledging this; apparently, Americans are the only ones stupid enough to be duped by companies "monetizing every little idea," as you so succinctly put it.

Re:private systems are not always the best solutio

[sydb]

pure private health care systems seems to be less effective and less efficient as well

Fairly obvious really, considering that private companies have as their primary objective the extraction of the largest possible profit margin.

How that goal leads to healthy people I simply don't know!

Perspective: Germany is 10 of 126 votes: 37 needed

[Holger Blasum]

in the competetiveness council. According to Nice treaty, 37 votes are needed to stop the Council Proposal as is. (Whereas the Parliament Proposal limited software patentability, the Council Proposal allows patentability and needs to be fixed).

As you can see on a newswiki in addition to the abstentions of Belgium (5 votes), Luxembourg (2 votes), there are some positive statements from some eg Italian, Slovenian, Spanish etc politicians too, but it is very much in your interest keep the in touch with your government today and on Monday too (Discussion/Voting in the Council scheduled for Tue 18 May; calculate for some time for transmission of your local govt's opinion to Brussels representative!). More help (including pointer to irc) here.

WTF?

[t_allardyce]

I must have been living under a rock because i had no idea the EU wanted to implement US patent laws!? thats like going backwards in time! what are these people on? maybe next the EU should abolish the human rights act? how about taking back the vote from women! no im not trolling, the US patent system is stupid and im sure people in the US will agree. Good for them to vote against it, i just hope the UK does too.

Which one is it?

[Donny Smith]

>Title: Germany to Vote Against Software Patents in the EU
>Text: ..Germany has decided to vote against all changes....

Which one is it - against patents or against changes?

Re:Which one is it?

[arkhan_jg]

Both. The EU patent process theoretically prevents software patents. In practise, the EPO has been granting them like no tomorrow.

Re:Meanwhile, in France...

[MrMr]

In that year the French were occupied by Germany.
The U.S. didn't enter into that war until 1941.
Until the end 1943 the official U.S. policy was to appease the Vichy German puppet regime.
It was only Churchill that managed to get the U.S. to reluctantly support the free French.

Not really...

[Fafner]

Since I can see no purpose for owning a gun that I would want to be legal I simply cannot follow the pro-gun-ownership movement in the USA. We have to agree to disagree on this one. I once was a very reluctant support of the EU (as most danes I suppose). The recent Bush administration and the EUs failure to contain the policies of the USA has made me change my mind. EU needs to become a true nation and we have to resolve our internal differencies in order present an alternative to the USA. Englands traditional unquestioned support of USA and the neo-liberalistic leanings of some of the new member states seems to be the biggest obstacles. While I would never use the word socialist about any european government I do feel comforted by the fact that all-out capitalism is not as common in the european nations as in the USA.

Re:Not really...

[Fafner]

If you conceive of the arguments with respect to guns, try them with respect to cold medicines instead. There are always moron teenagers using them to get high, and some people want them to be controlled more tightly because of that. Should you or I have to suffer worse cold symptoms because some dumbass wants to drink an entire bottle of Robitussin?
Use of drugs are heavliy regulated around here. I don't know the product you name but if you can get high of it you probably need a doctors prescription in order to buy it from one of the govnerment certified pharmacies around here. In general you can't by medecine with out a very good cause in Denmark. It seems fair to me.
Also, you don't have wolves or big cats in Denmark?
No we don't. I would guess that very few americans live in places where wildlife is a danger. It is no reason to allow people firears as a general rule. But it is not my country so it is not for me to decide.
The "internal differences" don't go away.
No they don't but they are obviously in the way of our ability to handle our much bigger differences with the rest of the world. What I meant was that europe needs to focus on the big issues and not let some stupid debate about subsidised agriculture get in the way.
Hah. The USA doesn't answer to the UN and certainly not to the EU.
Well USA should answer to the UN like everybody else. That is the point of the UN.
But no, you don't answer to the EU even though it seems like a lot of americans think it is fair that the EU answers to the US. I think we europeans need to lay our differences aside in order not to be swept away by US policies. You can like it or not; short of nuking europe you can't do anything about it in the long run.
It's capitalism that drives the market. If you switch to the market being driven by some EU council then that's Socialism, and if you all aren't careful, that's where you're going to end up.
Not unregulated capitalism. Even US laws recongnise this with some of the thoughest anti-monopoly laws in the world. To bad they seem to be suspended for the time being.
A lot of people seems to think that public regulation and a large government is a threat to private enterprise. It is not, it is just a different set of rules for companies to operate under and all rules (including those of the US market) are artificial and created by man anyway.

WW2 and WW1

[aepervius]

In case you do not know, I will do you a little HISTORY lesson. The US came into WW1 because the german made the FATAL error of sinking some of your ship at the wrong moment of the war (1916) 2 YEAR after it had begun. In other word, were those ship intact, US would have sit back to the other side of the pond. Furthermore US came at a time when the war was already decided (with germany on the losing side).

Now let us see another fact : WW2. US Also ONLY came into the war when Pearl Harbour occured , a FULLY 2 years in the war 1941. Should I remind you that the war started in 1939 ???

"Who was busy giving up the bulk of the secrets to USSR during the cold war until voted out?" Really ? You should please citate the number of secret "given" out by France. Furthermore you should get a list of the spying the US did in France, and the number of secret "given" out by the US & weapon given to sud american dictator to fight "communist" rebellion.

"France keeps trying to use us to try and regain their powers of old."
As opposed to US imperialism attacking country on their own despite not having the mandate from the UN and the world being against it ?


Please let us not start the game of mud throwing. A few years ago France might have had as much dirt as you, especially bungled stuff like the "rainbow warrior", but France is since long not a super power on its own anymore. Unlike the US which is abusing on economical , political front its superpower status. Dirt is cumulating so quick at US doorstep it is a shame.

Re:WW2 and WW1

[Anonymous Coward]

I do believe the point your parent's poster was trying to make was that the US didn't come in till the end of both wars, only when they were attacked - not when it would have been better "for the greater good". Your date of 1917 reinforces his/her post and makes it look even worse.

If the worst you can come up with is nothing more than reinforcing the point, Thank you.

Ireland is to vote against it too

[Milton Waddams]

I read an email sent from an MEP to the ILUG, saying that she was dead against it.

link to the email

Re:Ireland is to vote against it too

[Halo1]

It's now the Council of Minister's turn, the European Parliament had its say last September (and will have its next say after the Council decided). Although it's great to see that Irish MEPs will try to influence the Irish government, it's quite unlikely they'll succeed. The Irish presidency is, together with the UK, the strongest backer of software patents in the EU.

Nevertheless, actions like that can create press attention and that is very important. Politicians must realise this is an issue "the people" care about, and not just some technical matter which can be settled in back rooms.

mod me Un-insightful

[moviepig.com]

What sort of legal definition could discriminate between a software and a non-software patent?

...and, bearing in mind that patents are a means of enlisting the prodigious creative efforts of the masses, isn't innovation in software at least as desirable as in any other arena?

(With respect to patent-abuse, anything can and will be abused. The question is always whether such negative side-effects can be suppressed enough to net a clear benefit.)

I assume /. has addressed these questions earlier, but I couldn't find succinct answers...

Re:mod me Un-insightful

[steelneck]

Because you do not want expropriation of copyrighted goods. You do not want to make publication a possible patent infringiment, publication sorts under copyright. And a good way of distiguish between them is to specify industry to "automaded production of material goods" and technology to knowledge around the use of natural forces. This way you can patent the programmable "gizmo" as a hwole, but not the programs in it. And this way you can realize the new "gizmo" without infringing on somebodys softwarepatent. And this way you can publish your new innovative computerprogram without risking anything as long as you wrote it from your head.

RMS is in Europe

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't see anywhere here mentioned that RMS was in "the new Europe" last week having lectures about software patents.

He had one lecture in Prague and one in my hometown Bratislava (possibly also elsewhere, don't know). I actually stood like a meter from RMS last Friday! The lecture was a really great experience.

The Nationalist Mantra is...

[BerntB]

Do I buy an american products when i buy IBM or Coca cola ?

The local Nationalist mantra is:
Oh, I don't like those multinationals... no, I prefer our homemade international companies.

1/2 a :-)

Re:Beyond Software Patents?

[Halo1]

Business proces patents are a subset of software patents. Software patents are patents on unpatentable algorithms which supposedly become technical/patentable because you are carrying them out on a computer. Business methods are an example of such algorithms, along with maths (e.g. compression), presentation of information (Apple's iTunes interface patent) etc.

Germany Against Software Patents

[hackus]

THANK GOD.

At least I have location now to move my website too without someone claiming my XML publishing engine I wrote violates thier patent.

In fact, maybe I will just move myself AND my website to germany....

-Hackus

Tony is a Traitor

[teeth]

"We in the US think that this is really a poke at the US, but if I recall correctly, aren't the big pushers for the software patents really from Great Britain?"

Our PM, and some other Ministers of the Crown, seem to do things that make sense only if they are acting as agents of a foreign power (the USA).

That's treason in my book.

Re:private systems are not always the best solutio

[BiggerIsBetter]

The best customer is a repeat customer. :)

This sort of legal definition

[Anonymous Coward]

This sort of legal definition.

Re:private systems are not always the best solutio

[JuggleGeek]

The best customer is a repeat customer. :)

True story : My dad has had 5 hip replacements, and is already planning to have a sixth. Now if he were a centipede, that might make sense. I think you're theory above explains a lot.

limited period only ?

[dna_(c)(tm)(r)]

And so where copyrights - limited in time - but Disneyland laws keep extending those "limited periods" to suit big commercial intrests. What happens if, e.g. MS or SCO or IBM suddenly feels the urge to extend the lifetime of their patent portfolio ? Will they say "nah, 20 yrs of profit is enough" ?

Re:Don't be stupid

[RogerWilco]

I think we in the EU have more free speech as you, except when it comes to racism and slander, those are forbidden, for good reasons.
A lot of questionable organisations have their headquarders in The Hague, Berlin or London for this reason.

Three words: Making his point.

[Kjella]

"You are really brainwashed by the USA political system. (...) What civil liberties does the USA have that are missing in the EU?"

Free unfettered speech. The kind that will offend my neighbor, my government, anyway.

See, America has this great freedom in theory (First Amendment etc.) but in practice you had McCarthyism, trying to choke anti-war movement regarding Vietnam and the latest anti-terrorist/muslim/arab selfcensorship.

Ever noticed the uproar over a few coffins? Imagine showing their bloody bullet-ridden corpses lying in Iraq. Or how many think the tortured Iraqis "deserved what they got" in the US prisons?

The only place where we're more conservative than the US is when it comes to racism, which I think is your error in judgement, not ours. Think of it as class action libel/slander, which isn't legal neither here nor there.

We may not have that many great quotes, being spread over dozens of constitutions, some that say little about it at all. But I think you will find your freedom of speech is greater than in the US, whether you want to talk about drugs, abortion, religion, nudity, pornography, war or pretty much any other controversial topic.

Kjella

Re:Three words: Making his point.

[Jameth]

I hear this all the time. People tell me my speech is not so free in the USA. I live in an area that is considered ridiculously religious and conservative (until last year, it was illegal to serve alcohol at a restaurant).

Despite all this, I can discuss anything I want to. Anything. I've never run into anything I could not vocally discuss in public. Ever discussed the validity of the early things Hitler did? How about artistic suicide? Ways to commit terrorist atrocities and get away with it? Why the president is a horrible man? That recent moves have been signaling a return to McCarthyism? That socialism and communism might be an improvement? That freedom of speech is a questionable liberty? That God is an evil being? That God does not exist? That God is a liar, but fairly nice? That the majority of American laws are inappropriate? That specific American laws are inappropriate?

I've discussed everything there on one side or the other, vocally and in public, without ever suffering any repercussions. I have written up opinions on various sides, often detested sides, of many of those issues, and distributed them.

Yet, somehow, I suffer no repercussions. I hear that I have no freedom of speech, yet I still can't find anything I cannot say. If I really don't have this freedom of speech, why don't you recommend a topic for me to try bringing to the attention of people, just to see if it is acceptable?

one more step...

[feelyoda]

...for EU to horribly fail in its attempt to become the world's economic center and surpass America.

More statism, more government, more people being coddled by bureaucrats...

Re:one more step...

[Akimotos]

You are right about them bureaucrats and procedures ... terrible. But can you imagine what it says about the US if such a bureaucratic region is suprassing the US on all fronts????

Re:one more step...

[feelyoda]

But that is the point...

Such a region is failing to pass the US.
Our economy is booming. They are laggards.

We are actively debating freedoms and liberties, with the Patriot Act and the backlash against it; there is little resistance against the onslaught of PC speech codes.

We make the barriers to business small, i.e. some states makes it very easy.

It only is getting harder in the EU where, where regulators are having an unopposed field day.

So, in terms of advancing technology, quality of life, wealth & opportunity, the US is "winning".

What are you talking about?

Political culture

[quax]

Having lived both in the US and the EU I don't even know where to start. You couldn't be more wrong about your concept of liberty by Permit only in the EU. All EU countries have constitutions that guarantee citizens right and protect their human rights - like not being arrested without due process - something that has now happened twice to American citizens who have been labeled enemy combatants and were denied their basic right to make a call to get a lawyer. Such abuse of executive power is simply inconceivable in the EU at this point.

But what I find even scarier is the culture of intimidation in the US (where I currently live again). In Germany it is perfectly normal to strike up a conversation about politics at the office e.g. at your lunch break. In Corporate America more often then not policies discourage the employees to discuss such controversial topics. Democracy can not work without public discourse. I think this is actually the underlying reason why the democractic processes are so broken in the US - people in this country do not talk about political topics any more because they are afraid they may offend somebody and fear the repercussions. A colleague of mine actually told me that she is afraid to show her political leanings because she knows that her boss doesn't share them and she's afraid that she wouldn't get a promotion if he knew. I never heart a similar sentiment expressed to me in Germany.

Re:Meanwhile, in France...

[Craig Davison]

You can't claim that the French acted in their own interests during the American revolution any more than the US acted their own interests during WW1 and WW2.
You sound like a Rupert Murdoch-bot.

Re:Don't be stupid

[ttsalo]

Free unfettered speech. The kind that will offend my neighbor, my government, anyway.

EU does not have this right, nor do they believe they need it.

Can you Americans please stop spreading this manure? The European Charter of Human Rights, adopted by the EU countries, along with the Constitutions of the countries, guarantees the same right of free speech as the US Constitution.

Note that the right of free speech does not mean that you can't be punished for what you say. There are hundreds if not thousands of crimes you can commit in the US by exercising this right. Libel, slander, unlawful threat, all sorts of breaches of confidentiality, revealing official secrets, etc etc etc.

--

Unequality...

[Chordonblue]

"9/11 has shown you can built tons of rockets and warships it does not save you from the massive dangers of disproportionateness ..."

Well maybe not - if we continue to insist on being civilized. Were we brought to the terrorist's level sufficiently (say, a few well placed and important attacks), those bombs and missles could effectively quell any resistance. After all, it's hard to offer resistance when everyone is dead and your country is little more than a smoking radioactive crater.

These people are effective at using our conscience against us, hiding behind mosques and children. To them, this is a sign of our weakness. In dealing with this sort of foe, we might have to do far more than we are already doing. It's not nice, but then, neither is war.

We do not win we because we choose not to win - not that way at least. It is as it was in Vietnam. It's not a lack of weapons, it's a lack of will. The Iraq situation is 'winnable' but at what cost - politically and otherwise?

Re:Unequality...

[10am-bedtime]

it is not lack of will, it is lack of wisdom.

w/ wisdom, it is easier to see what "winning" really means, for everyone involved, even the yet unborn.

the nice hack, then, is to turn the abundant will available towards the pursuit of wisdom. not an easy task, but the sooner that is started the better. the really nice hack is to perfect this on a personal level and influence others likewise, w/o coercion.

"but some people do not listen to reason", you say. that's fine, too. for those folks you dance, throw images entranced, rage hard but askance, and leave them to chance. if they should turn, grow desire to learn, then together you'll yearn, w/ ignorance spurned. but if they ignore you, throw daggers to gore you, then keep w/ what's more true, the dance will not bore you.

"you're full of it", you say. ok.

Amazing BS...

[Chordonblue]

It's totally amazing how all of a sudden no one wants to remember U.N. resolutions dealing with Saddam's WMD's (Yes, where are they? Syria perhaps?), and how the French and Germans sold us out through the U.N./Iraq's 'Oil for Food' deal. Sorry to ruin your lucritive deal boys, but we do have to worry about national security here. At some point to actually should DO SOMETHING instead of fret about whether or not someone's got something they shouldn't have.

Remember: Saddam could've avoided all of this - why didn't he let the inspectors in if he had nothing to hide?

So this is what we're to expect from our so-called friends? And then you have the balls to bitch about what a hellhole Iraq might turn into! If it does, it will be thanks to you and yours for not helping end it sooner. Don't presume to lecture the U.S. about foreign policy when you let things like Bosnia happen in your own respective backyards. Just how long were you going to let that travesty go on, anyway?

So you don't want to help us in Iraq? Fine. But if Iraq DOES become the next Iran or worse, just remember that being the non-muslim nations you are, you are target #2 on the list (see: Madrid bombings). If you won't fight - even for yourselves, you'd better stock up on burkas and prayer blankets. In case you hadn't noticed, these wackos aren't exactly taking 'non' for an answer and I don't think you'll be able to change their minds with some fine wine or escargot.

Re:Amazing BS...

[meringuoid]

In case you hadn't noticed, these wackos aren't exactly taking 'non' for an answer and I don't think you'll be able to change their minds with some fine wine or escargot.

Excuse me, which wackos would these be? Al-Qaeda? I thought you were talking about Iraq. Saddam Hussein is an entirely separate wacko - and not a wacko who was particularly popular with the first set of wackos, either.

Re:Meanwhile, in France...

[Distinguished Hero]

You can't claim that the French acted in their own interests during the American revolution any more than the US acted their own interests during WW1 and WW2.

I never claimed any such thing.
The first paragraph of my post was meant to illustrate that the French didn't do what they did simply out of the goodness of their hearts. The second paragraph was intended to give some historical perspective to their actions.

The numbers are complete nonsense

[Anonymous Coward]

> US National Debt = $7,147,545,929,573.40

Just more Washington-rithmetic.
Once you add in military retirement payments, Social Security (empty "trust fund"), etc., the national debt is $30 trillion.

gewg_

For example

[ChrisMaple]

I've been reading in the health press that European government has been pushing for (and may have already succeeded in) making large doses of vitamins illegal. This has been tried in the past in the US, and with rare exceptions (folic acid) has been stopped by public outrage.

Re:I did say...

[Tough Love]

"But try to sell Nazi memorabilia in France. So much for free speech"

But that's a rather special prohibition, don't you think? To bolster your case could you please name a total of 3 limitations on free speech in France?

And you do realize that free speech has limitations in America, don't you? For example, libel is not allowed.

Doesn't matter at all.

[incom]

Since both france and the USA have enough nukes to char broil each other. And since when has talking about going to war against a democratic, peaceful, and nuke bearing western european country been a sane thing to talk about in the USA? It's that kind of humanity risking talk that causes anti-americanism.

Re:Doesn't matter at all.

[orcrist]

And since when has talking about going to war against a democratic, peaceful, and nuke bearing western european country been a sane thing to talk about in the USA?

Who said anything about sane? :-P But Bush still has a few months left. Give him a chance. Still the dick-size contest started because killjoe quoted the (morally and politically braindead) comment from Krauthammer about parking the carrier. I was just responding to the technically braindead idea that such a problem would be solved with some magic missile. That's 'Mission Accomplished'-type thinking. ;-)

For some reason it reminds me of the quote:
"Debating unix flavors in the context of anything Microsoft is like talking about which ice cream flavor tastes least like sawdust with turpentine sauce."

-chris

The Americans with No Abilities Act [ANAA] :-)

[MacDork]

• fuck you, you stinking fucks. this is where anti-americanism stems from. right here, from your stinking ignorance and disrespect.

Shesh, no sense of humor? Loosen up. It's no wonder Americans don't like the French. You misunderstand our culture ;-) Here's a tip: When Americans make a joke about you, we're expecting you to make one about us in return... like so. Give as good as you get, it's all in good humor :-) Being indignant just makes you look snooty.

Back to the topic... I find it amazing that the land of the Berne Convention may stand against software patents. The French should really make up their minds. Do they want to screw the public or not?

Re:I did say...

[lee7guy]

Your example is like having a shop in NYC selling Al Qaida memorabilia, celebrating the 911 attacks.

Myth of the Deficit

[the_meager]

With the exception of outright foreign loans, international trade is always in equal balance.

The 'trade deficit' is a myth made up to rally support for tarrifs, trade blocs, and that sort of thing.

Re:private systems are not always the best solutio

[the_meager]

Anybody seem to notice government regulatory monopoly over healeth care in the U.S. and the E.U.? Capitalism: Help the patient and yourself. Socalism: Help everybody while costing awhole lot more in the long run, while trying to central plan everything ahead of time. Supply deficiency. How come so many people talk about how government employees are so lazy and worth the money, but then want to put more and more under control of government?

Re:Foreign competitors (Failing of the EU)

[the_meager]

The problem isn't corporations, the problem is government and laws. We can all agree that human beings are generally very selfish people.

But how do corrupt people get ahead? By the help of government; laws, regulations, and bribery.

"Soft money" or money given to a politician during election is a matter of free speech. I have the right to suppor whatever candidate I want. (I won't be supporting Kerry, Nader, or Bush, for that matter.)

Anyway,

People seem to not understand that if a monopoly forms, it is by one of two ways: naturally or by help of government.

Now by very definition, if a monopoly forms naturally, it cannot be a good thing. This means that the people are getting what they want.

Now, if the monopoly forms by exploiting government laws and bribery, then it is a bad thing. The people are not getting what they want. Politicians are benefitting, as well as wealthy elite who are essentially politicians.

Unions are not going to help at all. The Union is more or less another term for government, where the leaders on top exploit those below them for their benefit (largely). Workers can earn fair wages without Unions...

Anyway, getting off of subject.

I'll be damned if I'm going to believe that the European Union, or any socialist entity, is going to be better than a free market capitalist society in terms of strength of economy. The reason the U.S. economy is slowing down, is because of government intervention (tarrifs, taxes, unnecessary or stupid laws and regulations, etc). This is not capitalism.

Free market capitalism (the only way capitalism should be used) is about hands off economics. Let the market (aka the people) run things by what they want, need, create, produce, serve, and purchase.

- - - - -
No nonsense about all "the robber barons" either.
Go read "Myth of the Robber Barons", and save me the time and effort. It was all about new government laws allowing exploitation of workers.

Re:I did say...

[Alsee]

Items don't celebrate. Items just are, and they can be owned by people with any sort of views. Hell, quite a bit of Nazi memorabilia is/was owned by people who fought in the war against the Nazis.

People celebrating anything is not illegal, even if they celebrate 9 11.

There is no law against AlQaida-related items in NYC (or anywhere else).

-

Re:bullshit - there is already a patent law in eur

[Alsee]

The problem with these European software patents is that they are currently in general not enforceable in a court.

Errr, did you really mean to say the problem is that they can't be enforced? I'd say the problem was that they were issued at all.

-

Re:private systems are not always the best solutio

[Vicegrip]

In the case of health care, the repeat customer is a broke customer with two mortgages and three jobs.

Exocets and aircraft carriers

[RemoteRabbit]

Exocets are pretty outdated these days. Despite this they are difficult to stop at mach 1 and 4 feet above a choppy sea surface.
Even when fired as singletons they are rediculously difficult to stop, and american anti aircraft /missiles missiles are optimised for mach 2 missiles travelling at height (patriot and sm2 are names that fill me with confidence). In the single case of an american warship attacked by them (in a war zone - they were awake) they were unaware of even the launch.
Of course french anti shipping missile technology has not stood still. We have the latest versions of AMX (exocet replacement) to be rumoured with a dialable sea skimming speed up to Mach 3. It is also understood to have stealth characteristics.
How long do you think a Carrier Battle Group would last under such a high tech onslaught.
Assuming the french still found it amusing to keep to conventional warheads.
Of course , they don't rely on these for ultimate defence, the french have a heavy armoury of ICBMs which they have vowed ( in cold war times) to launch on the next country to invade them.
Who knows they may have enough plutonium and deuterium to blow a hole in the Earths Crust and kill everyone.
Those magical military technologys are only magical against people who don't understand and have not harnessed it for their own use.
I find the childish threats against France both laughable and Nazi. Attack them and they will give you a free one way ticket to the stone age.

Re:Exocets and aircraft carriers

[orcrist]

I find the childish threats against France both laughable and Nazi. Attack them and they will give you a free one way ticket to the stone age.

Sigh. You really didn't read my other posts did you? Which threats were those please?

-chris

Re:Exocets and aircraft carriers

[orcrist]

I find the childish threats against France both laughable and Nazi.

Oh, and thank you for invoking Godwin's Law. I officially declare this thread: dead.

-chris

Re:Exocets and aircraft carriers

[RemoteRabbit]

The threats from the senator saying to park an aircraft carrier off France. I did not mean to intimate that any of the slashdot contributors made any threats, and apolgise for any offence.

Re:Exocets and aircraft carriers

[orcrist]

The threats from the senator saying to park an aircraft carrier off France. I did not mean to intimate that any of the slashdot contributors made any threats, and apolgise for any offence.

Fair enough :-) In that case I agree with your original statement entirely. It was the 'you' which I thought was directed at me in this thread, instead of the more general 'all of you who say such things'.

It takes a cool head for you to come back with your explanation and an apology instead of escalating to a flamewar; I tip my hat.

-chris

Mines, people

[KamuSan]

The US doesn't have any anti-mining capacity worth their salt.

Re:Mines, people

[orcrist]

The US doesn't have any anti-mining capacity worth their salt.

Now there's some thinking! That's the most realistic statement I've heard in this thread. Everyone else going on about some super weapon, and you have to go and come up with a 'boring' alternative which would just... work. ;-)

-chris

a voice from Slovakia:

[rastos1]

Two weeks ago we embraced 10 new countries from the former east. It will cost us millons of billions to bring them to western standards

BTW, thanks for that.

Re:bullshit - there is already a patent law in eur

[Halo1]

Errr, did you really mean to say the problem is that they can't be enforced?

I meant that it's a problem for those companies owning these patents. It's a bit like buying shares of SCO.

I'd say the problem was that they were issued at all.

Of course.

Re:private systems are not always the best solutio

[sydb]

How come so many people talk about how government employees are so lazy and worth the money, but then want to put more and more under control of government?

I think you're suggesting that the problem with government controlled bodies is that the employees are not accountable, so fiefdoms and employment protection rackets get set up, and people think they can get away with whatever they want.

However, private control and government control are not the only alternatives. Various forms of quango can be formed. It just takes the right amount of imagination to find the optimal shade of gray between black and white.

Clever people who know engineering - I'm sure slashdot is full of them - are well aware that optimal solutions are rarely to be found at the extremes, but generally somewhere between them.

Won't happen because France has nukes...

[Omega]

Even Paul Wolfowitz isn't dumb enough to try to challenge a country with declared nuclear weapons. Remember all that nuclear weapon surface testing France did in the South Pacific during the 90's? Once a country declares itself a nuclear power, it radically changes the landscape in debating military tactics.

Talk of parking an aircraft carrier off the coast of France is just that, talk. Any security strategist with half a brain knows you don't try intimidation tactics with a declared nuclear power.

worlds largest exporter too

[ProfBooty]

http://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/www/en/laenderinfos /laender/laender_ausgabe_html?type_id=12&land_id=1 88

Re:Meanwhile, in France...

[gangien]

I said 1940's.. not 1940. And even if what you say is 100% true(I really have no idea, i've never heard this before), we(and by we I don't mean the US alone) still did it, even if it was Churchill who convinced us to do so.

Oh no!

[iminplaya]

Is Germany declaring war on us again? Next the Japanese are going to DDOS Pearl Harbor's ISP's!

Only reason US has software patents..

[rofthorax]

the patent lawyers are ill-equipped to discern
between hardware and osfwtare patents.. Its stupid enough because patents are only supposed to be for hardware implemented technologies.. Its just because software can be implemented in hardware that software patents exist, even though software is nothing more than instructions.. I think it stupid that the US even has software patents.. I've applied for a sofwtare patent, but a requirement of it is you implement something with hardware that relies on the software.. If you can't do that, its not patentable.. You have to prove that the hardware relies on the software to control the hardware process.. So you can't patent an algorithm unless its tied to a particular piece of hardware.. And you have to prove that the process is unique..

I think some people just try to patent software to get their names in the newspapers..

Re:Only reason US has software patents..

[rofthorax]

PS- the only reason I applied for a software patent was that at the time, we were told VC's would only invest in hard technologies, and one way to get a VC's attention is to patent an algorithm. Because VC's don't invest in software, not anymore.. They invest in technologies they can guarantee are proprietary and not easy to duplicate, and a patent guarantees this bit of leveraging.. However, I think if the US cracked down on MBA's that start companies with the sole intent to make money off of simple trading processes, aka the stock market, and forces only trading of hard commodities, then you will see and end to patenting of software.. But in the current state of the economy, I'm not sure it would work.

US and Europe on vitamins etc.

[billstewart]

Europe has traditionally been much more flexible about what drugs you can medicate yourself with than the US has (as long as you're not expecting your National Health System to pay for them, at least.) The US FDA has been in the control of the big drug industries and modern-medicine doctors for decades, and it takes the paternalistic position that They know what's good for You, and You shouldn't be making decisions about your own body except for eating right and exercising. The War on Politically Incorrect Drugs exacerbates the problem. And sure, I appreciate the FDA's advice about what drugs appear to be safe and what drugs appear to be effective, but fundamentally this is MY body, and if I want to try something that's still experimental because I don't like the standard formularies (or they haven't approved anything for whatever disease I might have) it's my decision, even if the stuff is on the Generally Recognized As Total Quackery list.

Pharmacy laws and formularies vary by country, but when I was in France the other year and ran out of blood pressure medicine, I could walk into the drugstore and buy it over the counter, and I could also buy codeine over the counter. (Codeine wasn't OTC in Denmark or Lithuania, but it is in Canada and Australia.) I think they also had penicillins OTC as well - my cousin from Costa Rica was shocked that she couldn't get it OTC in the US when she moved here.

Friends from Germany and Hungary tell me that herbal medicine is much more common and accepted in Europe, and that doctors are as likely to recommend that as to push chemicals at them.

Charters of Rights and Free Speech

[billstewart]

It's nice to have a document that says you're allowed to speak freely - the Soviets had one too. The US Constitution isn't perfect, but it's certainly better than what the government is doing today. What really matters is whether you can enforce it when you've got something to say. To a large extent, the enforceability depends on a long history of court cases establishing that the First Amendment and other parts of the Bill of Rights either do or don't mean what they plainly say. There have been serious violations of this - the Supreme Court approving the conviction of Schenck for anti-draft leafleting in 1919 (the leafleting occurred in 1916 before the US entered the Great War) is one of the most blatant examples, and it took a bunch of cases about Jehovah's Witnesses who didn't want to worship the Flag and Commies who wanted to be Commies before the rights were really solidified. And Americans are prudes, so free speech doesn't appear to really apply to Sex (though it's better now than before the 1960s.) And while Roosevelt didn't directly nationalize radio broadcasting the way most of Europe did, the FCC's quasi-nationalization of the spectrum did strongly restrict the amount of free speech that was permitted on radio and television (which not only applies to sex, tobacco, and alcohol, but also enforced the "Fairness Doctrine" which kept most political commentary "Fair and Balanced" in the Fox News sense until the late 1980s. But at least our newspapers were relatively free before corporate consolidation turned them all into mush (though again, since Americans are prudes, the tabloids' Page 3 had to be slightly more polite than British tabloids while still treating women as objects.)

But even though the US hasn't been consistent about respecting the rights that it claims to guarantee to everybody (including citizens and noncitizens), the right is there, and if a bunch of hateful thugs like the Nazis or KKK or Revolutionary Communist Party want to have a parade down Main Street, they can do it, and the ACLU has properly helped make sure they government lets them do it even if it doesn't want to, because free speech is more important than political correctness. In most of Europe they can only do it if they're Communist hateful thugs, not Nazi hateful thugs. These days the police in small towns really hate it when thugs like that have parades, not only because it makes their town look bad, but because it can be really hard to protect the thugs from crowds from throwing rocks and bottles at them, and the thugs often encourage such problems because they not only get to feel macho, but they get to sue the town if they're injured and also get to sue the town if they aren't allowed to have their parade. (A friend of mine was on a small town government that had to put up with this annoyance from an outsider group. It's much less common in big cities, because the police forces are larger and tougher, and while nobody expects New York City's or Chicago's police to respect the rights of free speech, both sides are less likely to risk messing with them.)

Also, Revealing Official Secrets isn't a crime in the US unless you're an official who's been entrusted with them by the government, or unless you're a spy for an enemy power. So The New York Times was able to publish The Pentagon Papers (including a lot of secrets about the war in Vietnam having become a major war based on lies about the Gulf of Tonkin events), and The Progressive could publish their article on H-bomb secrets, but those were both edgy enough cases that they had to fight their way up to the Supreme Court to stay out of trouble. On the other hand, if the evidence against Julius and Ethel Rosenberg had been legitimate instead of largely fictitious, it would probably have been legal to convict them for revealing the H-bomb secrets to the Soviets. But if you've got a security clearance, you're not allowed to reveal any classified information you received, and if you violate that you're definitely convictable.