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Networking in the Danger Zone?
Croaker-bg asks: "I currently am an Information Security/ Network Engineer for a large government contract firm and have recently seen several solicitations come across email regarding gigs in the Middle East and surrounding regions, including both Iraq and Afghanistan. Understanding that the pay might be good for being willing to face the hazards, I continue to have my curiosity perked by these short-term jaunts. Lately however, the news of fellow contractors being abducted has put a new spin on the hazards of working abroad in these areas. Has anyone survived such a trip and lived to tell the tale with a fat wallet? If so, would you consider doing it again or is it just to dangerous?"
you cant spend money when your dead.
Seriously. Mods - hear me out before hitting "troll." Stand on the street and sell weed. You would make a lot of money. Yes, it's true that if things go badly you end up in jail. But if things go badly in Iraq, you end up dead. Death is permanent. With jail, you get out after a year or two, and you have a chance to put your life back together.
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I wouldn't go. When you are in the military at least you have a gun and can shoot back. As a contractor, your kind of on your own.
I'd go. How do I sign up? Monster doesn't really carry that kind of stuff, and some basic Google searches didn't turn up much. Do I email Halliburton or something?
You have to ask yourself the (deliberatley skewed left by me) question "Is the lure of money so great on me that I would leave my country to work somewhere where they are kidnapping people exactly like me?
This isn't an opportunity. You aren't "helping shape a newborn government" or whatever. Even if you're Christian, Iraq is the oldest place on earth. If you need the money, do it. Otherwise, don't.
--
The last digit of pi is four.
Your life is worth infintely more than any amount of money. People who do this must be crazy. Do you really want to be beheaded because you want a new Mercedes?
Might be of use to you on your trip.
but every time I start giving it some real thought someone else gets abducted and murdered. I don't know what the pay rate is, i'm more interested in just the experience but i dunno if i'm confotable with the risks.
..maybe northern Iraq with the Kurds, from what i understand things are pretty stable there.
I came to the datacenter drunk with a fake ID, don't you want to be just like me?
Ask this guy: http://www.savagenet.com/expat/viewforum.php?f=1
Tellllnet into the danger zone!
Tom Cruise would be so proud of me.
Click here for a free picture of an iPod!
While I have never been there, nor do I have a job in networking, or one at all, all I can say is that you should never travel or work alone. Find a way to get some protection. Get a gun, and some self-defence classes before you go. I have been in Middle East. I have lived in Israel for a few years and got an Israeli citizenship.
Many of us in the military, especially the one's seperating from the military, are getting these same offers. Its definitely tempting to some of these guys but all of them passed on it. Who wants to go do their same job that they were doing in the military and not have at least some sort of self protection, ie. M16, M9 pistol, squad of Marines behind you......
Big props go to you guys who are not letting the terrorists scare you away. You are indeed pioneers! It's like the ole west over there with money to be made in the face of great danger.
If you can look at those pictures on drudge and still bring yourself to go... you deserve the big dollars for your brass balls.
Those people are living in a phucked up world right now... they need honest people over there to help them... and to let them know that the basic American is not the military that they fear.
AC
1u servers can be useful as weapons in the event of an attempted abduction.
Steps to avoid abduction.
1.) Yank server out of cabinet
2.) Lift server over head
3.) Strike assailent with server.
4.) Repeat as necessary
I had the chance to work in Johannesburg. At the time it was "the most dangerous city in the world outside of a war zone." I was there for 4 months, and it was one of the best experiences of my life. While there, my co-worker was on a contract on New York. This was around 9-11... He saw the towers fall in person. You can die anyplace. Be careful, take precautions, be aware, and you have a better chance. Do the math... How many people have been killed in New York in the last 6 months? The risks may be higher in the mid-east, but how much higher? Especially with you watching everything around you?
NO NO No and more no.
You are not a target for some whack-job and their Whoopie-knife. Keep your head right where it belongs, atop your shoulders.
Greed, quite literally, KILLS these days.
I thought the whole point of having an Army Corps Of Engineers was so that when technical skills were needed in a war zone, the Army would be able to provide them.
Greed is a dangerous thing. And now, you can die for it. Make a risky business move, do something that hasn't been done before and see where that takes you. Don't risk risk your life.
Actually, do if you want. I wouldn't.
what is nailchipper?
see this gallery of a contractor's 1year stint in afghanistan.
http://www.darchiver.com/gallery/Vince
well, some personal pics in there as well. skip those.
Dump the IRS - http://www.fairtax.org
I know of several former coworkers who are there right now. You can chech out two of their websites here and here. I have been approached by these companies as well, and my expedited passport ($188.00) should be here next week. $120K/yr is too enticing for me to pass this up. Additionally, if you're doing IT work and are worried about danger, pick Kuwait as it is the safest environment. I'm married with two kids, and this certainly seems like a good option for mom to finally have a house. Keep in mind that the captured contractors mostly put themselves in danger by being in open public areas... IT guys are very well protected, probably because they are required to have an active secret clearance.
The DoD was recently debating if civilian contractors should be allowed to arm themselves.
The fact that they where even debating the issue should give you pause.
Please consider the moral issues that derive from making money off a war and its reconstruction. Do you want to be part of the military-industrial complex, to join the likes of Haliburton or Kellog, Brown & Root? Do you want to be a war profiteer?
I'd recommend you listen to the 06/06/2004 episode of This American Life which devotes an entire hour to stories of civilian contractors and mercs in Iraq. I believe it would answer your questions and you should be able to download it for free from http://www.thislife.org/
First let me state that I personally have no first hand experience in a situation like this, except that when I was a kid growing up my father was a similar contractor and, since this was the seventies, my family was dragged along as well. That never happens anymore. But I was in Iraq in 1979 before the Iran-Iraq war and remember leaving just before the war broke out. Right now my father is in a similar situation about a job in Indonesia where the company is currently facing people leaving (ironically I was born at that same jobsite).
Okay. It depends upon the security arrangements. First of all working in a second or third world country is very cool. There's nothing like the culture shock while at the same time being an expert compared to most people around you. Second, there is a big difference between having to work outside a secure compound and working inside the compound. If your inside the compound, changes are you'll spend most of your time there is a pretty secure environment and the only time you'll leave is to go on vacation to Dubai or someplace like that and have a significantly better chance at meeting some rich heiress that if you worked in the states.
One the other hand, if you're working outside a secure compound (like for example as a civil or petrolium engineer), make sure your paid well. While you'll still be pretty secure, you never know what'll happen. That being said, when they say that contractors are being targetting, they really are talking about security contractors who are ex navy seal types.
-?-
I recently got back from Kosovo (though I was there with the Army, not a contractor unfortunately). It's safe enough to hang out in town during the days, and the pay is still pretty good. It was rumored that some Brown & Root employees were making $80k for sitting in a watch tower. I'm sure IT guys would bank better than that.
As far as the Middle East, I think you could remain pretty safe if you just kept to yourself and didn't do too much playing around outside of the base.
On a related note, I would like to see a comparison of the daily murder rate in Iraq compared to the daily murder rate for an inner-city such as, oh, let's say Detroit. Granted, beheading is a bit worse than a drive-by, but it's not like it's an every-day thing.
It's your life. If you feel comfortable about being in a situation where your chances of losing your life increase dramatically, and if you think that you're being adequately compensated for the risks that you're taking, then go ahead and take the assignment.
But if possibly becoming a target, or even being the unfortunate victim of a friendly fire incident, makes your stomach churn then don't do it.
These are warzones that you're talking about. Don't step into one because someone else says that they'd do it, step into one because you know that you're comfortable doing it. You only have one life, so don't lead it according to how someone else would lead their's.
Bottom line: is the job worth potentially dying for? Only you can answer that for yourself.
"Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
One of my friends is over there in the service.
:
Whether you think the war is right or not, he is there and feels like he is "serving his country." This is not your average yahoo.
Anyway, he sums it up like this. 60% of the people want us there, 20 percent don't care and would like us to get out as soon as we can and the reamaining 20% are completely insane and un/miseducated fanatics.
If you're interested in reading his blog, he is at
http://www.missick.com
Enlightening reads whether you agree with his views or not.
Hope you find this worthwhile.
- Zav - Imagine a Beowulf cluster of insensitive clods...
I'm not sure if the 8 ball is trying to tell you to avoid Iraq or stop using Microsoft Outlook. Either is sound advice in my opinion. ;)
She's built like a steak house, but she handles like a bistro....
"A contractor's personal politics play heavily when choosing jobs."
the other guy was an Afghan POW, not Iraqi civilian.
/." question -- I think that the editors are either in very-long-latency mode or entirely detached from the rest of the world. The poor guy was killed today!
To contribute to the grandparent's discussion, as far as I know you are kind of supposed to know how to deal with a gun if you are a civilian contractor down there, or at least carry it. (Got the story from a lady working for one of the aerospace companies who was visiting Iraq briefly, and she told that you are given a gun to hold and at least pretend that you know how to use it).
As to the actual 'Ask
To answer the question, I guess that my wife would not let me go there...
Paul B.
Huh? And what precisely do the al-Quaeda fanatics have to do with Iraq?
Unless all of our western intelligence agencies have failed miserably, al-Quaeda people only began moving in Iraq as a direct result of Gulf War 2...
Yes, the Middle East is a dangerous place right now. (Particularly for Westerners.) However, people do have a tendency of exaggerating the danger because of the context.
For example: just a few years ago, seven people were gunned down at a computer engineering firm in Massachusetts. But if I were offered a job in Massachusetts, I doubt that questions of personal safety would even enter my mind.
Of course I'm not saying the Middle East is safer than Massachusetts (though if it keeps you from eating at McDonald's too often, it may well be)! But don't let high profile shock stories bias your judgement too much.
I fully agree that violent fanatics need to be stopped, be they Muslim suicide bombers or Christian crusaders in the guise of American patriots.
In case you have all forgotten, those contractors that were taken out of their convoy, dragged, beaten, and then burned while being hung from a bridge WERE ARMED. Some were civilian body guards, HEAVILY ARMED. One more point to ponder - our US military, namely US Marines, are over there being killed daily. Granted you probably wont be on the front lines. You will probably be back in a somewhat safer area. But from what I have seen and my own experience I would rather be up front with the guns and somebody who I KNOW has my six covered. Where I can call in the big guns if I have to. I cant believe they let americans wander around at all over there without being heavily protected.
I just regret that younger soldiers are over there now because we were not allowed to finish it when I was there.
Just my two cents
(from an infantry marine, gulf war, take 1)
I thought the whole point of having an Army Corps Of Engineers was so that when technical skills were needed in a war zone, the Army would be able to provide them.
The problem with that arrangement is that if there are profits to be made from the teat of the US taxpayer (or local oil money), the Corps of Engineers cannot provide them.
>The al-Quaeda fanatics need to be stopped. They don't care about anyone but themselves. Everything they are doing is only hurting the Iraqi people.
Wow, that could totally be rewritten as:
The American fanatics need to be stopped. They don't care about anyone but themselves. Everything they are doing is only hurting the Iraqi people.
This American Life (on NPR) ran a pretty good documentary on this subject a few weeks back. It's available in Realaudio format on the web. It's an hour long though. The archive page is Here. Or go to the audio directly.
Homer no function beer well without.
i would not risk my life for money...
;-/ And do not even think of any kind of construction jobs or anything related to heavy equipment!
;-)
You know, when you drive to your office and back you are risking your life for money... Same if you walk...
I guess that what you wanted to say was that you would not accept an average pot of money for an above-average risk to your life. But that is reasonable, this is why averages and medians often coincide in social sciences!
Paul B.
I have a friend (USAF retired ) in Saudi now, as a contractor associated with aircraft, and he's bailing.
Money fades. Bullet holes don't.
It COULD, but it would be incorrect.
MANY things are hurting the Iraqi people, and I don't think we should be there. That said, the US is doing a hell of a lot of good work in restoring/building infrastructure in Iraq. This is helping, NOT hurting the Iraqis...
"Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel." - A.B.
Computer stuff in the Army... is the Signals Branch. Not the Corps of Engineers.
.... don't know.
USAF are "Combat Communications Groups" or "Com" units suplimented with regular base level "com" people from "Communcations Squadrons" from various bases.
Navy and Marines
And of course there are some exceptions to what I just wrote.
Imagine the feeling of a hand gripping your hair and pulling your head back. Imagine a dull, rusty knife sawing its way through the skin, tendon, and bone of your neck. Imagine your agonizing screams suddenly cut off as the blade penetrates your larynx. Imagine no longer being able to scream, but the agony continuing as the Muslim fanatic hacks off your head. Imagine your last sight being the video camera they're using to film your murder.
Imagine that stuff, and realize it could very well happen to you. If you're cool with that risk, then go.
"The advanced societies of the future will be driven by competing systems of psychopathology." -JG Ballard
...but if you get abducted and beheaded, don't expect me to shed a tear. I have little sympathy for the carpet-baggers currently over around Iraq's moribund corpse.
Tubal-Cain smokes the white owl.
6) Profit!
Getting tired of Slashdot... moving to Usenet comp.misc for a while.
Right. Couple of Americans walked into a prison complex one day, and decided to abuse some prisoners. After which time, the MPs found them, and threw the interlopers out...
Perhaps you're forgetting that these interlopers were members of the Army, an outfit which pretends to care about discipline and chain of command and responsibility. Perhaps you're forgetting that some brilliant lawyers in the White House dreamt up legal strategies in defense of torture.
It's quite difficult to argue that the efforts of the White House and the Department of Defense are somehow not representative of American policy.
About a year ago, I purchased a grey market tractor from a man who makes his living off of international trade. He has spent much time on foreign soils wheeling and dealing heavy equipment. He has a physique like a green beret, was raised on a farm, and yet has a law degree with a specialty in international law. I recognized him as an expert in international affairs. Someone in the trenches, not the ivory towers. And I started asking him about his experiences.
Amongst the more interesting things he stated was that given the current world situation, even before the whole deal with Iraq started, he had decided to stay home for a while. He might consider a trip to Canada, but would not go to Mexico without a few of his ex-Ranger body guards and would under no circumstance venture to South America. He said that worldwide, it had become an accepted business to capture Americans and ransom them back or use them for political means. The authorities in the countries were of no help and usually on the bankroll themselves.
This was not your average everyday traveller, but a seasoned veteran with heavy duty protection.
After that discussion and listening to his accounts of how common this problem actually was, especially of friends and acquaintances he knew in the biz who had actually encountered troubles, I'm surprised that there hasn't been far more trouble in Iraq. In truth, it sounds as if the heavy protection being supplied to the contractors there is making them safer than if they were in South America. The only difference is that both the news media and the captors involved in the Iraq situation are motivated to amplify this microcosm of the overall story while they seem motivated to suppress the story of the true worldwide situation.
So, enjoy your trip to Iraq. But be very careful of Columbia, Peru, Brazil, Indonesia, etc.
Did anyone else notice the irony of an infantry marine posting as an anonymous coward?
(no no, I like the marines, but I couldnt pass it up...seeing as how I am a gigantic ass with two arms protruding allowing me to express myself....God, I love Cottenelle..)
"Where's outsourcing when you need it???"
KBR (Kellog Brown & Root to you people who don't know) has a big location here in Houston. I heard from a friend that works their that they are the exclusive (or short list of exclusive) company that recruits people to go over to Iraq, Afgahnistan, or elsewhere and processes them here in Houston. I've been told that there is pay schedule as to what the normal salary is here in the US, plus 20% added on, plus another %20 added on for hazzard duty, all tax free. But, these numbers could be wrong. It just might be worth it, but my wife says NO WAY for me, otherwise I would go.
TAX FREE?? Where do I sign up!
"What's your likelihood of being abducted by terrorists in Saudi Arabia? Not very high. Even if you are there."
/. would something like that be mod'ed "Insightful".
Well, it's kind of hard to be kidnapped by terrorists in Saudi Arabia if you're NOT there.
But if you do go there AND you look like an American, then the chances go right up.
"Certainly not relative to any other of a number of ways you could die."
Stepped on by an elephant while having sex in Tacoma. Hmmm, statistically, that has NEVER HAPPENED.
Do you know what "relative" means?
"You can lock yourself up in your house if you want to. It just depends on how you want to live."
False dichotomy there.
Either
Lock yourself in your house
or
Go someplace where lots of people who don't like you want to kill you and can recognize you easily.
Yeah. Whatever.
"If you are really concerned about your life being out of control and in the hands of terrorists, just get fitted with one of those poison teeth. Then at least you can save yourself from suffering while you die."
So, the terrorists can kill me or I can kill myself before the terrorists kill me.
Only on
How about he get a job at a small insurance company and die from a heart attack 60 years from now brought on by too many donuts for breakfast for 60 years?
I am not a computer professional; I do international development work and so I travel a fair bit. I was in Afghanistan and Pakistan last summer and Iraq last November and December.
I found Afghanistan pretty likeable, but it would be a hard place to live for an extended period. Outside of Kabul it gets very primitive very quickly. Additionally, the security situation outside of Kabul is very much worse than it is inside.
I found Iraqis (and most people, really) to be pretty nice, hospitable people, but the situation there is just all kinds of bad. The security situation is part of it, and this keeps you indoors and in very close quarters a lot of the time, and this gets old quick. And regardless of how you feel about the current administration or the war, being an American in Iraq is a mighty uncomfortable thing to be in 2004.
I presume the people paying big money for these services are military or military contractors. In both Afghanistan and Iraq, these guys live in shipping containers, often in the middle of nowhere. In the Green Zone, shipping containers are stacked everywhere and people are shoved into any space that will fit them. Many people --civilian contractors -- share their bunks in shifts.
If you are really considering this just for the money, I would think very carefully about what you are doing. How much is money really worth? Because especially in Iraq, you will be exposing yourself to physical danger and psychic stress that is considerable.
And if you are going for a travel experience, I can support that, but I would suggest that in a military environment you are unlikely to get much of a cultural experience. There are other, better ways to do this.
If you really believe in what you would be doing (as I did), then go, but do keep an open mind and remain observant and inquisitive; regardless of your position now, you will find things are quite different from how you thought they were.
-
Give me liberty or give me something of equal or lesser value from your glossy 32-page catalog.
I served in the Persian Gulf during my active duty years in the Navy. I am now retired fortunatley. These days however, there is no way I would go back to that region for any reason or any amount of money. There is widespread hatred of Americans in the region, and anyone western is a target. The situation was bad when I was there, and now it is so much worse, I can't even imagine. Having made it through my Gulf tour without incident, I consider myself lucky, but having got back here safely, I'll never ever go back, not for any reason, or any amount of money. Believe me whatever the're paying you it isn't worth it. Its not really fun in that part of the world, so a best case scenario in you won't have much fun, the worse is you could end up shipped backed in a plastic bag. I'd say do no go, what would it be like for you're family if you were killed over there just for a job? There are other jobs, no job is worth dying for. Obviously the political situation in the middle east is only deteriorating, stay home, don't be a statistic, don't risk putting yourself family through what could happen. You saw the news today, I'd think that would speak for itself. Mark
Since Iraq needs to be rebuilt....
Why not hire and train Iraqi citizens to rebuild it?
There, no moral questions about hourly pay rates for the citizens of the country that bombed them in the first place.
You need to talk to people who have been there. Not recruters. If it checks aout any your exposure to risk is minimal go for it, go. I had a friend who went to Viet Nam and ran a "Bank of America" Branch on a base. He made tons of money and also some good life expierence. He talks about maintaining the check reading machines that were in a quanset hut with a dirt floor (loads of fun.)
All these folks are using this as an advantage to express there political leanings and anti war sentiment not to give you reasonable advice. In short talking about shit they know nothing about. This is not a referundum on George Bush, al-Qaida, 9/11 or, war and peace. It's about a overseas job.
The last thing you should trust is the news media, If it's so fucking dangerous how come they are still over there?
If you don't like what I write don't be a CS and mod it down. Refute it.
Yea I can't spell. So what is your point?
I have given allot of thought to this. I have been tempted to "go over the hill" so many times. Hell, I've been thinking about it since I was there back in 1989-93. A gravy job, tax free money, (AFTER 3 YEARS !!!) a fat wallet. What more could you ask for? A nice villa some where, a boat, a car ? Sure, they'll give it to you. A nice big old life insurance policy, sure they'll give that to you too. As for the other things like: female companionship, i.e. YOUR wife, or your girlfriend, or some nice local girl...NO WAY....Heck when I was there they executed two Egyptian woman for "talking" to some marines. The GI's were deported overnight . We (the entire unit) were INVITED to attend the BEHEADING down at the soccer...errr...football???? field on Friday night and our Commander denied us permission to go, not that any of us wanted to attend anyway...
/. People all like to fantasize that this is "Bush's war" (your ALL wrong by the way) but we nor did he ask for 9/11, the Cole , Beirut , the Kobar Tower bombings (I was there, and saw 2 diff barracks building get it, two diff years, one right next to me!!! And still to this day NO Justice!!), Lockerbie, Mogadishu, US. Embassies, how many suicide bombers? and on and on until the two recent beheadings (at least this time it was carried out by terrorists.)
... money, adrenaline, the challenge of staying alive when you know they are out to get you, all the dime store novel intrigue and suspense........Yup, still tempted !! No sarcasm intended. BUT I am still firmly on home town soil USA ......
The dangers facing "contract workers" today are many times more dangerous than even 10 years ago, it's hard to describe the climate as anything other than "extremely hazardous". It's NEVER been rosy for Americans in the middle east nor Africa and it never will be. Having said that, I would still go to one of these Third World Countries and continue mission given a realistic chance of surviving AND coming home with the loot.
Now a true story of a "contract veteran" I last saw "somewhere" in the middle east:
I had a Warrant officer who retired right after Operation Desert Storm and went and worked for the Saudi National Guard as a supply tech. While he was over there I "stopped in" to see him and to find out how he liked his new employers. His response (which was very negative and remain the main reasons I haven't yet went for any of these jobs) was that:
A) He was treated very badly. Worse than the Third Country Nationals.
B) They wouldn't let him bring over any dependences even after being there a year (that was the deal, after 1 year he got his wife and kids)
C) The supply system was broke worse than ours (meaning the US Army's) and no one would allow him to fix it. (Sound familiar??)
After all was said and done he fulfilled his contract and returned in one piece to the states. The same cannot be said of a lot of workers there today.
And FWIW IMNSHO Bush is the ONLY reason why we are not all bowing 5 times a day to a rock and all trying to figure out what happened to church bells on Sunday. I Know
Yet, I'm still tempted
Rod F.
PFC
Dawn, n.: The time when men of reason go to bed.
Hurricane Island Outward Bound
OB
I scream like a little girl just playing Silent Hill 3. I imagine if I worked in a war zone, I'd have to wear a diaper and keep a pacifier handy. No thank you... I shit myself enough as it is.
(Sorry... had to lighten up this somber topic.)
All that stuff was working before the US blew it all up. Of course they should fix it, it's their fault it's broken. This is a "duh". this is like thanking Mr. Burglar for being a nice guy and fixzing the window he broke when he slipped in to snag all your loot. It's not a heck of a lot of good, it's a pittance of feel goodism to give the appearance of propiety to disguise the serious criminality over the illegal invasion of another soverign nation.
Remember, the military kills people and breaks things, that's their job, that's the only thing they even remotely do adequately. Now they got a big mess, and have turned a number of people away from any sort of western styled society, because everything their Islamic clerics told them about the west and what would happen to them came true. The americans came in, wiped out people, destroyed all sorts of stuff, and then they took over the prisons, slammed people in their under little pretext, and tortured and killed a lot of them, and they still support israel and are doing their best to get the free oil pipeline to israel set up and running smoothly-again, what was predicted to happen that was broadcast to the people there is coming true. They would get invaded and have their oil stolen, and the US would put in a puppet government and still stay there forever. All that is true, they state this is what has happened and what will happen. And the torture pictures released are the tame pictures.
And here's a final thought. Iraq is an artifical creation of the british empire a long time ago, and it took a dictator like saddam to keep basically three separate nations together as one nation. That is the only level of coercion that will keep iraq a single nation. there is no peaceful democratic way to do this. So you have to ask yourself, is the attempt in and of itself harebrained and misguided? I would say probably so-unless you accept it was based totally on lies and the invasion was for two purposes-steal theoil and get a permanent land based large military presence on the ground in the mideast, and two, remove one threat that the zionazis saw to their eventual expansions they thing are their eventual right. Then this invasion makes a sort of twisted sense. The top administration people are all israeli firsters and professional lobbyists, and/or they make millions personally from their ties to the oil and military industrial complex corporations. To me, the evidence is clear, the war was wrong from who started it-they should all be in jail really, various crimes-and they have constantly bungled it, they are just too stupid to be entrusted with actions of this caliber. I mean, boneheaded stupid, not any sort of world class thinkers represented there. Rumsfeld? Bonehead. Cheney? A psycho. Bush? A marionette with some serious social issues. Rice? Puh-lease...... wolfowitz, perle, geez, we got some winners there.....
Afghanistan: The Kabul/Bagram area are relatively safe. Occasional bombings and shootings sound worse in the media than is perceived locally. Locals don't see you as a target. Resist the temptation to see the rest of the country, and you'll be fine. Heroin use among foreign rear echelon motherfuckers is 'way up... do avoid that.
Kuwait: basically safe, but events in Iraq and SA will continue increase tensions. Do as you would in most poor nations (which Kuwait is not) and try not to stand out. Do a year or two and call it a day.
Bahrain: more of a disconnect between rulers and ruled than Kuwait. Looks good compared to SA, Iraq, Afghan.
Qatar & UAE: Looks good. Act conservatively, as has been the case in the Gulf all along. If SA goes down the shitter, there will be spill over, but at least you'll have plenty of warning.
Saudi: things are going to get worse before they get better. Do not take your family, as you'll be forced to live in a foreign compound. If at all posible, live in well off but Arab-heavy apartment complexes or developments. Make a habit of varying your routine outside of the office. Have in mind an alternate exit from said office.
Iraq: If you're lucky enough to work AND live strictly within the occupation authority's green zone in downtown Baghdad, knock yourself out. Keep in mind that that zone will be shrinking considerably over the next 12 months into a still huge US Embassy, so make sure you don't get stuck outside with a housing allowance and a pat on the back. For the less risk adverse, 24x7 at one of the bigger military bases is a consideration. Next down the list is Metro Basra as long as the Badr (as opposed to Sadr) militia and it's political front stay happy. Ditto with the Kurdish areas, which aren't much worse than eastern Turkey. Pass on Mosul, Kirkuk, and the whole rest of the country. If you're going to be driving anywhere, for God's sake opt for small, cheap sedans. Big sedans are begging to be car jacked, and SUVs broadcast "USA" like a HUMMV.
Iran: I throw this in for contrast. If a US citizen/resident alien, your biggest problem will be explaining yourself to Uncle Sam. Consult with an attorney to make darn sure you aren't in conflict with US economic restrictions on trade with Iran before you go. Don't hit on local women, bad mouth Islam or the government, or take pictures of any thing that even resembles a government or military installation. In fact, this is more of a normal overseas posting, so it's not nearly as lucrative. There are some up to date tourist guide books on the country, and good poop from the British and Australian Embassy web sites.
Luke, help me take this mask off
120,000 USD/year isn't anything to sneeze at.
Considering that most USA IT pro pay scale has
gone way down in the last 2 years, MOST of the
pay differential is hazardous duty pay. Very
recent events in the ME would indicate that the
pay differential is for REAL RISKS.
I understand that the pay is tax-free, so there
is more money to spend on health & life ins.,
ceramic body armour, and a folding AK-47.
Where do I sign up?
I lived in Bagh-town for 3 months this year on Camp Victory. It was awesome. But make no mistake, it is dangerous: I was attacked at least once a day by rocket fire, mortar fire, or gunfire. Everyday is a day on the edge. However, in exchange for the risk, you come back with a WAD of cash (I made $4000/m just for being a go-fer), a sense of survival (nothing really shakes my tree anymore.. except slamming doors and unexpected sounds.. what I meant was people don't scare me anymore), and a wonderful sense of culture. The arabs are WONDERFUL people. Very unselfish and friendly (except the ones that one to kill us). I made many friends, and now have a good understanding of arabic. If you want to talk to me, reply to this message. I would be happy to discuss it with you. -Dust
I am in South America right now, more precisely in Argentina. There is a thriving expat community here, last night I attended a late dinner at a restaurant with a bunch of Americans. This city (Buenos Aires) is as safe as any US city if not safer. I know dozens of Americans here and never heard of anyone having any problems besides a few being victims of petty theft, just like in any other big city.
Obviously this person does not know what he's talking about. The world outside the US is not as frightening as some people want to make it sound. Warzones, of course, are a different matter.
See charts for twitter trends on Trendistic
And the methodology for his study is what? And he defines "fanatic" how? No disrespect meant to your friend there, but the plural of "anecdote" is not "data." Back here on earth, more credible studies paint a much bleaker picture of Iraqi sentiment towards the occupation.
The CoE does mostly CIVIL engineering. Dams, flood control, and miscelaneous hydrology are their main contribution to infrastructure creation. They're mainly a construction corps. Anything requiring esoteric technical knowledge is generally contracted out to private companies that specialize in those sorts of things.
If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
According to President Bush, the administration has never said that Iraq was directly complicit in the September 11 attacks. He does say, however, that the Saddam regime was involved in providing a safe haven inside Iraq for the training of al-Qaeda operatives.
Now- heres the rub. You would think that kidnappings, hikackings, and detainment by rougue governments are things that you hear about on the news, yet dont generally happen very often
If you think this, then you are wrong
I can think of at least three things that have happened to people I know in these situations (NOTE: not things I have heard OF, or people I know OF- then we would be here all day). 1) a hijacking of an oil platform off of angola 2) kidnapping in colombia (lasted more than a year) 3) 2 year incarceration by corrupt government officials in nigeria.
However
As a former oil worker myself, I can safely say that the dangers posed by political instability are nothing compared to the health and safety hazards posed in these danger zones. Health and safty in the british sector of the north sea is bad, but health and safety in many parts of the world is basically non existant.
This is far more likely to kill you that political violence, even in a reletively sheltered job such as network engineer,
Whether you think the "state" argument applies here or not, realize it ain't just about the money. For $100k a year are you willing to become part of an occupying force? To the natives that's what you will represent, and all your income will be tainted with the blood both of the natives who died in the occupation and of the "allied" soldiers who died not for the money, but because they thought it their duty to be there when their country asked.
To quote Rick Blaine: I don't mind a parasite; I object to a cut-rate one.
Skin colour can be an element, but I think you put far too much emphasis on it. I'm guessing your from the states where it has a great import. But in Iraq, or Afghanistan? Many of the natives are probably whiter than most USians, at least underneath the tan (which can, of course, be acquired.) Plenty of blue-eyed 'aryan' types in both these places - in fact a man of colour would stand out much more in either area than a blue-eyed nordic type with a good tan, because the indigenous population in both places is predominantly caucasian, and there is no indigenous negro element in either place.
What's much more important in terms of standing out is how you dress and how you act. If you can speak the local language, or at the very least Arabic which is something of a lingua franca throughout the region, you've got a huge advantage. If you can dress like the locals and walk like you belong there, you're not likely to stand out as a target regardless of skin colour.
Nonetheless, neither place is at all safe for westerners, particularly ones carrying blue passports, regardless of skin colour or even linguistic ability. There is a lot to be said for travelling to broaden your worldview, but right now Iraq and Afghanistan would not be on my list of places to go.
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Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
I think that most of the people who do these kind of "offshore ventures" are not doing it just for the money. There are a lot of other valuable things you can receive from a job besides money.
Statistically speaking, I think you have a better chance of getting killed in America through one of our favorites (heart disease, automobile, gunshot) then you do getting beheaded in the Middle East. However, if you are killed in the Middle East you will probably enable your loved ones a brighter future through public sympathy donations and potential gigs on television.
But the people who do this kind of work are doing it because they are trying to make a difference in the world and they believe that they are on the side of GOOD.
If you do this, do it not because of your wallet, but because of your conscience. Think who you might become as the result of this experience.
Have you considered going to a desolate place instead of a war zone?
I don't know if there's much chance of you getting a job there (I've known a guy who got an offer, but they wanted him for engineering duties), but it might be another option. The offer was from our government (Argentinian), about US100000. And he said that was cheap. Maybe there's some IT jobs to be done there. He didn't take it, though. Didn't like the mandatory appendix extraction.
You won't get that kind of money now here, but maybe some commonwealth government (the British have an importante presence there), or the Americans could make an offer.
It's going to be hard to get, networking stuff can be usually done remotely (I'm a netadmin myself), but there might be a chance.
GPG 0x1B479C78
... for the CoE to develop some more capabilities. If you think hydrology and infrastructure are easy, you don't know much about them. The problems also gets exponetially harder when you are expected to be able to work in environments ranging from dessert to jungle.
If the CoE can handle civil, it can learn most IT tasks.
"I'll have a Guinness, no wait, make that a Coors Light" -Grad student I work with, who shall remain anonymous...
Please explain where the math is wrong. I didn't say it was 10K for a person for a night, it was 100 people at $100 a night. I think the whole point is, and the army apparently agreed, is that it isn't exactly right to take a huge staff on an extended assignment, alongside soldiers living in tents, thinking you rate putting your entire staff in a five star hotel for the duration, at the tax payers expense. Halliburton/KBR signed up to work for the Army, alongside the Army, they get paid well for it so they should be living like the Army lives and like the Army tells them to.
All in all its more than a little excessive. Rent some god damn apartments if nothing else.
They just don't make war profiteers like they used to.
@de_machina
I was forward-deployed during the early phase of the Afghanistan war, and the KBR guys were great.
In case you were unaware, these contractors keep guys on the ground in those countries; some of them have been there for 20 years or more. These are local people who live there, speak the language, and are employed/paid by these companies to maintain caches of equipment, buildings, etc... these companies don't just fly in a bunch of pale-faces, rake in the cash, and fly out.
They subcontract with a lot of local people to cook food, do construction, and all manner of services for the military, and they do a fair job of it. They maintain a lot of relationships... It's probably a little unfair to simply characterize them as profiteering gluttons (and no, I don't work for them, never have, and don't plan to).
Contractors provide a lot of services, and while they certainly do it for a profit, that's no different from 99% of people in a capitalist system. Doing things out of the goodness of your heart is very noble, but money's a powerful motivator, and people going out into a war zone to do a job (particularly if they're providing expertise that the Iraqis need) should get a fair wage... I'd say they're earning it.
Even if a man chops off your hand with a sword, you still have two nice, sharp bones to stick in his eyes.
Yeah, I've been but in Saudi and you have seen what is happening there. I got the bucks fine and returned to tell the tale. But even if they don't behead you or otherwise kill you for real, you die a different death there anyway - the death that in the eyes of the native population they would see you really have if they could. You're a dog there. You're the 'other'.