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Getting Your Company to Migrate from IE?
RunningFerreT asks: "With all the recent warnings and recommendations on migrating from MSIE, I have come across a serious problem. The company for which I work doesn't want to, even after being informed of all the exploits and problems with Internet Explorer. Having the boss 'try out' Firefox isn't working: a single site looks bad, so IE must be better. Has anyone had success in convincing management types to switch from IE, to another more secure, standards compliant browser? If so, how did you get the job done?"
does automatic update work if internet explorer is pulled out from the system with something like litexp?
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
...which site? And do other sites render worse in IE than they do in Firefox?
;) and give the end users the option to switch. The upside? They get to waste an hour of company time moving into a new browser. :-p And less work for the ITS guys.
As for migrating from IE, I've never had a problem encouring people. The built-in popup blocker is almost an instant 'OK! I'm converted!'. This may or may not be helpful: http://texturizer.net/firefox/faq.html
Perhaps, distribute a company-wide email, linking to a download for Firefox (put it on a local server, first, link to that, save Moz the bandwidth.
Informatus Technologicus
Remind your boss that the reason the sites look so terrible in non-IE browsers is because the sites do not conform to WWW standards. By insisting IE continue to be used indicates Microsoft should dictate what websites should look like, not the Internet inventors themselves. Surely he or she can agree that Microsoft should not be given that power. Thus, sticking to IE is not a solution, rather it contributes to the problem.
I've tried getting my mom to switch countless times, always with problems. My current plan is to wait for Firefox 1.0, and then make her switch again.
:)
At work, many people use IE - but nobody has to. I'm also plannign on moving everyone at the office to Firefox once it hits 1.0. It's hard to get the PHB's to agree to something that's not 1.0
No it doesn't.. I just did this 5 minutes or so ago. One word: DOH!
I just installed Firefox, then deleted the IE icons and then created new ones that had the IE icon and said "internet explorer" but whose link went to Firefox.
No compliants, no spyware since.
Karma: Excellent (fuck, even in the future moderation doesn't work!)
We need everyone in our industry to switch. All of the ISVs and vendor extranet type applications require IE. We cannot switch from IE until the functionality provided by these companies is compatible with mozilla or moved from the browser based application. It'd be nice to have them only load IE for the specific app but trust me: users are stubborn. An extra click or two would cause them too much pain and suffering.
I'm currently trying to get my boss to use Safari (recording studio with all G4's). He got stuck on using IE back in OS 9.x, and just isn't a 'computer person'. If his banking site doesn't work well in Safari, or something doesn't look exactly like IE, he doesn't like it.
My simple idea so far is just to remove his permissions to IE
Tibbon
tibbon.com
This is one thing that allways got to me. Why isnt there a theme that mimics IE's gui perfectly? My parents were resistant to switching to firefox but I pressed them and basicly said it was IE's once removed cousin before they adopted it.
Never could figure out why my girl liked my bitch tits, then I found out she was a lesbian.
Just because a single site "looks bad" by the boss' taste is hardly an excuse for letting open your company's IT infrastructure to all sort of malware and viruses. Even if not for the technical aspect, the boss will understand how much money can saved by avoiding the problems in the first place, and should be convinced. Same as with backups, really: this comment from earlier today, is pretty insightful to that matter: how much is your data worth ? Justify the migration "costs" (free in your case, but some cosmetic issues the boss will have to do with) by figuring out what your data is worth to begin with.
Funny...
Lots of people say that, yet I don't seem to be suffering the least using any of a number of non MSIE browsers, on my non MS OS.
I guess I'm just lame or something and am not using the "hot" or "cutting-edge" web sites... or perhaps the claim that " if you do not use IE, your missing out on imporatant sites etc.." is just plain FUD.
But, so as to not make waves, I'll opt for the "I'm lame" answer...
Branding still means something. I'm installing Netscape Navigator 7.1 on our stations, because it's a recognizable brand name, and more readily acceptable than say, Mozilla, even though they're essentially the same product. I get IE out, and a Gecko based browser in, which is the most important thing.
I understand the enthusiasm here for Firebird, but it's still essentially a beta product. Netscape/Mozilla has always rendered pages for me correctly, so I'M more comfortable with that option as well. Yes, the Feds warning against IE helps, but if you're an IT manager or sysadmin, it's still your rep on the line when something doesn't work right. The fact that Netscape appears to have gotten a reprieve (7.2 is coming out soon) helps matters. Businesses and government organizations like to play it safe. They don't want to hear beta or open source. They want to hear a trusted brand name. When that brand name uses open source, all the better for you the technology implementer.
Life is hard, and the world is cruel
At several of the organizations I've been involved with over the last couple of years, remote email (and calendar and discussion and ) has been via Outlook Web Access. Funny enough, usability tanks regarding attaching files, spell check, moving emails, preview panes, etc.
IMHO, it is not the internet at large that's the issue with browser shifts; it's the intranet.
Thinking of starting a business in Minnesota? Me too! mnsmall.biz
First you need to get yourself promoted to a position where you specify software for the enterprise. That's the easy part. Second is you find out every website someone in the company might possibly visit, and you either
1. Get the website to fix their websites to look good in your choice of browser
2. Install a proxy to fix sites as they flow through. Plan in maintenance so the rules are updated as sites change.
3. Convince the company to use a different resource that is complaint
Then switch everyone over to firefox.
Of course, even the firefox developers concede that Firefox isn't production ready (1.0, anyone?). Also you'll be upgrading the software several times a year (with associated problems each upgrade causes) at least until 1.0.
The simple fact is that unless you are in a position to specify then all you can do is write a business proposal that covers all the aspects of the change and give it to everyone you have access to. If you don't know how to write a business proposal, and aren't ready to do all the work in a changeover yourself in addition to your regular duties then you are obviously not in a position to even suggest this change.
You are in a beauracracy full of twisty passages, all alike. You are likely to be eaten by a downsizing.
-Adam
Don't pull it, create a GPO to prevent running it and apply it to that group of users I guess.
OK, as a rule, when someone is asking a question about workplaces and bosses and corporate policies -- answers regarding "Here's what I did for my mom / my sister / my grandma..." tend not to be super helpful.
I had all customer service agents switched to Firefox in a weekend, all they use is the UPS website to check tracking numbers, so the rest of the stuff they do is usually not business related so they don't complain. Have a few java apps, they work well, one required me to install Java 1.5.0 (Err I mean Java 5!) instead of 1.4.2 because it was running dog slow in Firefox with 1.4.2 ....
Imported Favorites and settings...made IE hidden..
2 or 3 users are special cases and they really need IE for some IE specific ActiveX crap but that's it...
I spent 5minutes clearing spyware in the past 6 weeks.
In any event, when faced with a similar situation, I generally follow this tack:
1. Write a memo (I'm better with the written word than the spoken word - additionally, the written word has a date on it) that clearly, unemotionally lays out the advantages/drawbacks to whatever I'm proposing. If you're fairly good with the written word, you can weight your bias, if you're so inclined. Even without bias, you can mention stuff like the TRUE costs of fighting a vulnerability (computer/worker downtime, multiplied by the number of users, estimated cost in your salary per instance, etc).
2. Submit the memo, and don't get offended if your idea is not taken. Even well reasoned, compelling arguments are not always enough. Keep in mind that we're focusing on base hits, not home runs.
3. Time is on your side. There will only be more vulnerabilities. This does not mean you should be happy with new vulnerabilities, but they are only serving to bolster your case. Hopefully you've made management aware of the associated costs of dealing with IE vulnerabilities. Keep in mind that management understands cost and benefit. They don't respond to features and feelings. Do a really good job of showing how the cost and benefits outweigh the inconvenience, and you'll usually have a green light.
Anyway, I hope this helps.
We all get along together like tornadoes and trailer parks.
You might try communicating with "management types" instead of writing them off in the way you seem to do from the tone of your submission. I understand that the stereotype is humorous, but if you aren't able to communicate the reasons why Firefox is superior, then the blame falls as much on you as it does on him (or her).
Forward your boss a few of those "Update your Ebay/Citibank/Capital One/Wells Fargo account details" emails.
:)
After he fills them all out and submits them, go into his office and explain to him what he just did.
Ok then, it worked at the front receptionist's desk. Biggest culprit of spy/crap/malware in the whole place.
I hate sigs.
Let's stop IE at the webserver. Someone needs to create mod_noie, which returns a page to download FireFox and/or Mozilla if it detects the user is using MSIE. Warn the user they have an insecure browser that's hurting the internet and they need to upgrade.
It worked for Microsoft to squelch DR-DOS, didn't it? Turnabout is fair play.
No, and Explorer acts funny too, if you remove IE. Just remove all shortcuts to IE and replace them with FF links. They will use what is in front of them.
I hate sigs.
Oooh the internet was invented by the W3C!
Seriously, it is a wonder to me why people are so in love with the W3C. Their standards are contorted and difficult to implement, driven by a dream of the web that has not yet, and probably will never be realized (perhaps because it is only shared by the W3C and their coterie, rather than by content publishers and consumers), their licensing restrictions are incompatible with open source (like the GPL), and their reference implementations are ridiculously sub-par. I'm all for standards, but most good internet standards arise from de facto means, not from lofty deliberation.
How about spending your efforts applying updates and hotfixes? With some research and initial legwork this can be mostly automated. You (basically) say he is not moved or considering your viewpoints, but are you considering his?
Have you considered contacting that single site about having them updating their design? Might be easier.
13 Reasons to use firefox over IE
I think i once saw a page with like 100 reasons. But this covers the major ones.
- tristan
Total up your costs for coping with IE's problems for each of the past several years, extrapolate that for the next few years, and compare all this with the costs of migrating to Firefox (or the browser of your choice). Show them the graphs of total money spent from five years ago to five years from now, and make it clear how much money you would have (or will) save by making the change.
If you can't show the financial gain for the change, it doesn't make business sense. Period. Better = costs less overall. Period. "Less trouble for the tech guys" doesn't cut it. Neither does "but Firefox is more standards compliant!"
I always equivocate. Well, almost always.
No you fool! You apply an IE theme to FF and change it's icon and rename it to "Internet Explorer" (or "Porn" depending on what you normally call it).
Your average user would never know the difference.
How I did it
1. Bought him a PowerBook
2. Deleted 'Internet Explorer.app'
3. Showed him all the cool Mac stuff, etc. exposé.
4. Showed him Keynote. Almost sold on just the alignment guides. (Boss only uses presentation software as a fancy fixed slide to slide projector)
5. Showed him he still had Word and Excel, and could read all his old files.
6. Showed him Preview's PDF features.... SOLD.
Switching this Boss was important cause this boss once called us about his computer when the problem turn out that it was off.
I worked for a month in a company when I was still young and, well, inexperienced. The boss told me that he had heard of this open source bussiness and that he wouldn't have to pay for it.
I told him that after a month of instructing his workers about how to change the wallpaper or configure an instant messenger, I don't see them using OpenOffice (which was in its early stages) and Mozilla.
He considered it a challenge.
The company still runs on Windows 98, but that's about all proprietary software they have. Workers are instructed to have the official company logo wallpaper at all times and most instant messengers are forbidden, if not firewalled.
A lot of large companies use a webapp called Siebel for customer relationship management (CRM). Not only is siebel the worst application that I've ever seen in 10 years of computer use (and I mean it's really, profoundly bad in every possible way), but Siebel itself uses some weird combination of ActiveX controls and Java applets that manages to ONLY work with a very specific version of IE running on a very specific version of Windows.
I know this because the place I work has been "upgrading" all the Win2K boxes to WinXP so that we can use siebel on them. They spent boatloads of money to both MS & Siebel on the upgrade, so yeah, they're probably not very eager to switch to a browser that will prevent them from using the most important part of their job (Siebel is the main system we use, there are a dozen or so peripheral systems that we use from time to time that may or may not work in FireFox as well).
Consumer's looking to spend money on linux-friendly businesses should probably be avoiding AT&T Wireless... Verizon and General Electric also use Siebel...
Depending on your company size, the switch might not be worth it. Say there are 50 to 250 users, just putting in a firewall, and disabling ActiveX, ftp downloads, .exe, .cmd, .msi downloads, jacking up the 'security' settings would do. Installing and supporting a beta product from the Linux world on Windows takes away more man-hours even if reduces security man-hours.
IE on win32 is pretty bad in security, but with the prevention steps, we've kept the support man-hours lower than what would be required for a complete switch and support.
We're spending that extra time in bugging our application developers to release Linux binaries, testing their Linux binaries and trying out openoffice etc. Looks like in 3 years, we should be able to make that gigantic switch to OpenLDAP + Linux workstations, all involved binaries should have good Linux versions, well supported.
Till then, converting in parts will only add to the pain. Reasonably speaking, just convert your firewall, custom application database to Linux+Postgresql, and develop all new applications in a language + library thats easily portable so youre ready when the time comes.
"Give orange me give eat orange me eat orange give me eat orange give me you." -Nim Chimpsky
Not sure where you work, but every place I've worked... the "problem child" was the boss.
--Phillip
Can you say BIRTH TAX
Having the boss 'try out' Firefox isn't working: a single site looks bad, so IE must be better.
Step 1: Remove Firefox
Step 2: Wait a few weeks
Step 3: Add an entry to his hosts file that directs this one site to a porn site. Better yet, update your local DNS to be authoritative for the domain of the site and set 'www.example.com' to the offending IP. (No evidence on the boss's machine, then)
Step 4: When he comes to you asking for help, tell him his Internet Explorer is infected. Make sure to say "I hope you haven't accessed your bank from this machine in the last few weeks or used a credit card - your information might have been stolen."
Step 5: Point out that this is one of the reasons why you want to move away from IE.
One caveat: Step 6 might involve getting fired if you get caught.
- Tony
IE being IE, if you leave him long enough with his machine using IE, he WILL get some kind of worm, virus, or what-have-you.
If he does, then you tell him how it happened. He'll lose his computer for a while while you fix it, and invariably ask "how can I keep this from happening again?" and you tell him.
If he does NOT, then your company's security in other areas is making up for IE's weaknesses, in which case good for you. Still, it might be a good idea to tally up how much money you're spending to protect IE users from themselves, assuming you would actually be spending a lot less if IE wasn't a concern.
And, at the end of the day, if his laptop isn't getting taken over by virii and such, and you can't make a good case for (a) saving money by switching, or (b) reducing non-boss employee downtime by switching...well, you don't really have a problem.
FWIW, I had the same problem convincing my wife to switch. Before her computer got infected, she was highly reluctant. After she lost her computer for a week until I had the time to fix it, she became a convert, and now uses FireFox exclusively.
1999 Free Software Advocate: It's not fair! I don't have a choice of browsers!
2004 Free Software Advocate: Don't give them a choice and they won't be able to use IE!
Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
Just remove all shortcuts to IE and replace them with FF links.
*and* remember to name them to something obvious (such as "Internet Browser" o "Web Browser"). They might think "Firefox" is some kind of game.
No sig
And then when they next use what they think is IE they'll say "Oh Wow, Microsoft really improved their browser".
No, the best way is to make users aware of the problems with IE, and then show them how Firefox fixes those problems. The fact that open source coders respond to security flaws faster than coders who work on proprietary software is also an advantage.
PHBs don't think like that unfortunately. They think, "Microsoft is everywhere so it is the standard. Everything else is broken or not good enough." When one of their PHB friends talks about how cool moving over to Firefox was next time they are out playing golf instead of working, you'll get a memo telling you about this great new thing that he's found and insisting that you try it out and have it installed on his machine. Next thing you know, a committee will go away and do a cost/benefit analysis and within 12 to 18 months a document will be written recommending that it becomes corporate policy to only use Firefox. Three to four years later it will become policy, you'll get to install it, but it'll be a 2-year-old version full of bugs and security holes and lacking modern standards.
Stick Men
There are hundreds of applications that are built just for IE, across many, many industries. Many geeks out there fail to realize that Internet Exploder and Microsoft Word aren't the only applications that are used by people who work. Every industry has specialized apps. Many vendors have jumped on the ability to use IE technology to interface to their products. It's not as simple as "Just use Firefox, luser!".
"Would it kill you to put down the toilet seat?" -- Maya Angelou
Making his regular workday scenario more complex is not going to win you a convert.
Usability = Use. What you're talking about is why people don't want to change.
vk.
A lot of people seem to think saying "IE sucks, use this" is a good strategy.
I hate to bust your bubble, but unless you give someone a reason to switch to your recommendation, you're just babbling at them.
Give they WHY they need to switch to Mozilla. Show them how great tabbed browsing is. Show them the integrated search. Mess with the config a little and show them how much faster it is. All of the things that make you *want* to use it, regardless of whether IE ever existed.
Spyware, security, exploits, etc. are just noise to most users, and consequently most bosses.
vk.
Write a proposal which details the problems which you are trying to avoid, the costs of such a problem as well as impact on doing business while the problem occurs. Propose a number of different solutions, so management has a choice in implementing them. The proposal should look something like:
I. Intro
A. Problem
B. Why it is a problem
C. What has caused this to come to light now.
D. Three options
(body)
II. Option 1.
A. What this solves
B. Costs
C. Pros and cons
(repeat II for each option)
III. Conclusion
A. review of the options
B. Compare and contrast pros/cons
C. Personal recommendation.
You need to do this on paper, so they know it's something serious enough for you to write a proposal. They also will realise that since you have put this on paper you have brought up the issue and are "covered" in case it happens, again, they will see this as proof of seriousness. Lastly, you have involved them in the decision makeing process, and neatly skipped over the "do we need to get rid of IE?" question and onto the solutions part of the question.
RandomAndInteresting.comdefending the world from stupidity since 1979
Find somebody decent in the Legal Dept. Quietly express concern that, expecially now that the U.S. Goverment has gone on record against using security-swiss-cheese IE, you might face professional liability - similar to an electrician who'd been pressured into doing something clearly dangerous that caused a fire.
Played right, this approach probably has a better chance than any other of getting a no-appeal "IE is banned" rule from on high.
It's easy to make up & spread cool- and credible-sounding stuff. Finding & checking hard facts is hard work.
A big problem I have seen is printing Web pages that has extras blank pages or misalignments with Mozilla v1.x (even 1.7). I know people who likes to print stuff from the Internet. Even Netscape Communicator v4.x does a better job with this area!
Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
I know that MY (admittedly rather large) company will never be able to switch to non-IE browser because of all the extra "applications" which are on the intranet and require IE (and even if they have no real reason to, they refuse to talk to non-IE browser). "Little things" like filling a timecard, purchase order, travel request and such, all that is necessary for day-to-day office life. And of course even our IT people use FireFox for Internet browsing (though the ones I know are on UNIX/CAD side of the business).
;-) ).
Maybe a sensible way would be to block IE on ourgoing connections in the web proxy (heh, maybe I should fire an e-mail to the VP of IT with this suggestion and a link to that Homeland Security advisory
Paul B.
OK, the whole reason folks want to switch from IE is because Microsoft isn't providing timely patches. However, I'm not sure if Mozilla is either -- Mozilla seems to be a "work in progress", which means that potential security problems are fixed in the development branch, but that does not affect the release schedule. And Firefox is still in beta stages and probably isn't being patched at all.
I read somewhere there's a remote hole in Moz 1.6 and FireFox 0.8. However, the advisory page doesn't list them, and hasn't been updated since November, so I don't know what to believe.
Furthermore, some milestone releases aren't totally stable or may behave differently. It would be very difficult for a corporate deployment to follow Mozilla's release schedule, especially if they had to test intranet apps etc.
I know that Mozilla security is not a huge real world problem yet, but maybe someone can clarify what exactly Mozilla's security patch policy really is.
(Also, you'll have to prepare to uninstall and reinstall the whole browser because there isn't a patch procedure, but that probably could be scripted.)
Whenever I hear the word 'Innovation', I reach for my pistol.
Of course, they key is to get them to NOT use IE for everything else once it's loaded :P. If I don't think they are bright enough to figure out what they are doing, I just don't give 'em that extension. I will reiterate, once you show them tabbed browsing, they don't want to use IE unless they need to anyway.
Ligaguinggligagiggagoogoogwillgo
1999 Free Software Advocate: It's not fair! I don't have a choice of browsers!
2004 Free Software Advocate: Don't give them a choice and they won't be able to use IE!
Ah...at last. The student becomes the master.
That's really great.
That's the problem with the undercurrent of this whole MS vs. productX problem. "It sucks" "Mine's Better" "Blah Blah"
IE takes so many hits and attacks because it's #1. If Moz ever gets to be #1, the script kiddies won't be writing attacks on IE flaw because it'll be no big fucking deal. The reason IE "sucks" is because it's got a huge target on its back. I like moz as much as the next guy but cmon people....
You'll have that sometimes...
The picture of the blue "e" is just as much IE's as the name "Internet Explorer"
This post written under Gentoo-linux with an SCO IP license.
As a power user, I use Firefox as my sole browser on every machine I own and use daily. That being said, as a network admin my network still uses IE as the primary browser for one reason, group policy. I work at a school, so managing Internet settings centrally and locking them down is a requirement. Until I can easily manage Firefox centrally and deploy custom pacakges, I will continue to use IE on my network.
We've never had a problem with IE, and we run an application-level firewall, so filtering the latest IE exploits is quite easy. Popup blocking is provided by the Google Toolbar. Spyware isn't a problem because my users don't run under a privledged account, and McAfee VirusScan 7 corporate picks up browser hijackers as viruses.
I am the network admin at the company i work for. We use all MS products here, from desktops to servers. Sure, we could have used other systems, but it was more cost effective to go with MS. I have the most retarded people working here, and I have no problems with any of them using IE. Number one, I have SUS on my server, with a policy setup to auto update every night at 12:00 midnight. This way everything is patched right away. I also have symantec on my network, and this totaly takes care of everything. It runs off the server, and finds everything. When I have at least 5 people here that dont know what a start button is, but they cant mess up my machines, then I dont see what the big problem is. Why are people looking at websites that would have bad code in them anyways? At my company, they do work, and maybe browse the web a little, but I dont think any of them are messing around on a site. Now if a site was hacked, and the code was put on a common site we visit in the store, then I could see a problem, but I would have already patched it automaticly with SUS. I dont see the problem. I dont have a prefrance with MS or the others, I just dont see the major problem really. If your network is setup like it should be, you should have no problems no matter how dumb your users are. my two cents were used to buy this post.
Our place (hence anon post, sorry to all the "you're anon therefore you've nothing to say" people) keeps making noises about de-Microsofting the organisation, and ok development is moving wholesale over to Linux this year (although that's from Solaris, not Windows, so I'm not sure how that counts), but there's a constant stream of emails with hyperlinks that say "Best viewed in IE" or that just don't work in anything else. Some sites even pay lip service to the anti-MS stuff with "Best viewed with Mozilla", but then only work in IE! FFS, given who we are (one of the five largest software companies in the world), if we can't do a proper job of it there's something wrong. Some internal sites work with other browsers, but it's unfortunately a minority. It's time our CEO stopped spouting all the anti-MS crap - either doing an about turn and admitting that 99% of the company runs on Windows, or making it a sackable offence to make a website that only works on IE.
So help him make the decision. You can't help him with things he doesn't understand, like "standards compliance". And he probably doesn't care about the political reasons. You just have to put the plusses and minusses in terms that matter to him, and in a nice concise form. Use terms that are meaningful to him.
Take a piece of paper and draw a line down the middle. Over the left, write "Advantages of Moving to Firefox" over the left "Disadvantages of Movign to Firefox".
---
Advantages:
Less chance of a hacker taking over our company's computer.
No popup advertisements.
Tabbed browsing allows you to manage entire groups of web pages in your bookmarks.
Reduce costs of installing frequent security updates.
Any websites that don't display correctly for whatever reason can still be conveniently viewed using the IE view extension, which will quickly pop up IE.
---
Disadvantages:
Testing shows some web sites are rendered with cosmetic defects.
Doesn't come "in the box", so as we add new computers we'll have to spend additional time isntalling (if he asks, say about 5 minutes).
---
People are funny about making decisions on information that is floating around in their head. It's helpful for many people to see things put down on paper, even if they should be able to keep it all in their head.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Switching to FireFox probably won't earn the company a lot of money. We all love FireFox, but whenever a major update comes out, every couple months, you'll probably have to completely delete the old FireFox off each machine, install the new one, and set it all up again. And they'll probably never encounter a website that won't work in IE, but they will see sites that will only work in IE. Every security decision comes with a price, and you have to justify every one of them financially.
As an open source advocate and an employee, it's important not to let your beliefs prevent you from giving advice that's in the best interests of the company. Your boss would probably appreciate a bigger range of recommendations, from adjusting IE's security options to autoupdate to of course installing a new browser and making it the default, or just doing nothing about the problem, in which case state the risks and give past examples of problems that have resulted in loss to the company. You'll probably want to mention Thunderbird for email, since it's also pretty secure, has built in spam blocking, and blocks external images (used to verify good addresses).
Where I work, a lot of us are using FireFox, but it's not a policy, people can still use IE, and the employers were already biased against MS to begin with.
Our university uses a e-learning system that fails to work with IE (and some other browsers like Opera).
So everybody thinks "IE is broken!" and gets Firefox...
The PHB couldn't care less about tabbed browsing or security. That's my job anyway, not his. But this IE View thing could be exactly what I'm looking for. My only question: If he has a sidebar open(which he LOVES, he CANNOT live without his sidebar), will the extention allow him to right-click his bookmark and open it in IE? Please please tell me it does! (I am at a remote location and cannot test it out on this machine :-( )
"So I says to Mable, "Hey, those are MY ferrets!"
I'm having problems with Firefox 0.91. Sometimes, a lot of times, it displays just a white screen. I hit Ctrl-- and then Ctrl-+ to make it display. Is this something we can require everyone to do?
I've been thinking about this at my place of employment as well and here is what I came up with. (this may only work in a Active Directory enviroment) Lock down IE through group policy so that only trusted intranet sites are allowed. This is because IE users will not have to log on to many of our intranet applications by useing IE. Install Firefox from a logon script. Show your employer how much time your depart wastes fixing malware related issues. You can bore them with security but that usally does not work. Let your Boss continue to use IE. remember do as I say not as I do rules many job sites.
not sure if this for everyone but remember money talks equate your solution to money and things will start to change.
Perhaps the boss has gotten the impression that you've not done adequate research. If somebody from Sun began a sales pitch by pointing out problems with a company's current Microsoft-centric setup and finished with "try our hardware -- you won't notice much of a change", that person would rightfully be called a loser.
If your job involves making IT decisions then you should either learn to do legitimate investigation before trying to pitch an idea to the higher-ups or invest in a 401(k) and try to keep your job as long as possible before somebody realizes that you don't seem to be doing much analysis when making decisions affecting the security and operation of the company.
Keep in mind that most people trying to make a business successful probably don't want to worry about whether their browser will get in the way of business. If you make your employer think about which browser to use, be damned sure you present it in language he'll understand and appreciate (hint: try costs and benefits of IE vs. Firefox vs. Opera vs. a 16-bit copy of Netscape Navigator Gold, including costs in terms of security and maintenance).
If you can't provide this information, you're wasting the boss's time by pitching an idea you can't support.
If it isn't your job to make such decisions, then keep in mind that your job is to provide what is best for your employer, and that wasting time recommending a course of action you haven't fully researched is probably less beneficial than other things you could be doing.
Either way, don't nag -- pitch an idea, and let the person in charge decide. Let those above you realize that when you make a suggestion, it's been researched and has definite business advantages, not that you thought that Firefox looked nifty and decided to "Ask Slashdot" how to get your way.
Somebody get that guy an ambulance!
Sorry. I just tried it with IE View and Mozilla 1.6, and the "open link in IE" option doesn't show up when right clicking on bookmarks in the sidebar.
To a lot of people, Internet Explorer /is/ the internet. So the e becomes the symbol for the internet. But the goal here should be in part to educate, not decieve, people so perhaps labeling the firefox logo with "Internet" would be best.
This post written under Gentoo-linux with an SCO IP license.
First, after the last round of exploits, I simply said that we had to change. I explained that I could not keep the systems secure if IE was used.
Second, everyone I've ever switched to Firefox has been really happy with it. It's got a good interface and better features than IE (no that IE has set the bar especailly high).
Just something I found earlier today that just happens to follow this theme:
http://http//www.ebay.com
In firefox, that takes me to http://www.microsoft.com
WTF? This was just a typo as I got in a hurry trying to visit Ebay.
Karma: Chameleon (mostly due to the fact that you come and go).
...and we all have a rough understandinf, how many geeks inhabit this planet
If this were a problem, that could be solved by clever arguments, do you think someone would feel so desperate to ask for help?
In my experience, one comes accross 3 sets of people:
- open minded
- interested, but guided
- fully guided
I will explain this on hand of examples, regarding the subject. The open minded person usually finds a feature that he likes/has been looking for/desired/needed, which hooks them. These are very practical people. You give them a screw and the choice between hammer and screw driver, they will take the screw driver, as it's the most appropriate tool.
Then we have, what I have labeled the "interested, but guided". These are the people evangelists need to concentrate on, and that are cause for the most exasperating efforts (with the last group it could be worse, but as the outcome is known, one just dosn't bother). You will find it relative easy to get hold of their attentention. Most likely they will agree with you on nearly every point. Only getting them to install and actually use the program, that is where the actuall problem lays, as they are guided by superior knowledge. Mostly that of the companies in house IT guys (not knowing of their problems, actually getting their job done, without 'knowitall' boss interfering). Though there are more sources of superior knowledge. Sticking with my prior illustration. Offer these people a hammer and and screw driver, while instructing them to use a screw, and they will go with the hammer, while knowing that the screw driver would be more appropriate. Only because they have never seen someone around them, or what ever, using the screw driver, they wont touch it.
Our parent has an issue with a type of person, you would find in my third classification. These are people that neither have knowledge, nor a real own opinion, while actually believing themselves the opposite. Now getting someone, who knows nothing (as they have always been managers, without any further interests), but believes to know it all (as they have {possibly} worked for YEARS in and with the industry).
Back to the illustration. These people often feel intimidated by real knowledge. So if I, the handy man, give them a screw and the same options above, there is no way this person is going to use the screw driver, as I (the one who should know), just said that IT IS THE TOOL TO USE.
If anyone here (thats why I'm reading the comments;)) knows a solution THAT WORKS. Let us all know.........as eternity sets in
At any rate, I started showing individuals FireFox (and Thunderbird as long as they aren't using the calandering functions of Outlook) and all of the cool features (tabbed browsing, etc...). 99% of the time they're hooked after a couple of explainations of the differences and how to use it effectively. Another opportunity arises when I get people complaining about all of the pop-up ads in IE. I used to install the Google Toolbar in IE for them. Now I show them FireFox. Seems to be taking over in all of my clients' offices.
And then when they next use what they think is IE they'll say "Oh Wow, Microsoft really improved their browser".
/. site somewhere with news stories like "Getting your techies to eat more vegetables and go outside" and people arguing about how to go about that and people saying "omg he drinks HOW many cups of coffee?? Well just tell him how bad it is for him and he will stop". Not going to happen really is it?
No, your average user is utterly oblivious to Microsoft and so on. They really really couldn't care less so long as "Hotmail works". They know that if they click on a blue icon that says "Internet Explorer" then they can look at porn and so on.
Case in point - I installed Firefox for my father recently - he got a PC about 2 years ago and is very much the sort of person who will install anything and click anywhere (while naturally insisting that he doesnt). I introduced him to the concept of spyware recently and installed Spybot, AdAware et al sold to him under the fact that people are "spying on him" (otherwise he wouldnt care). I went around to visit last Sunday and he told me that his spyware software was not working "because it doesnt pick anything up anymore where it used to find lots of stuff". The reason was because he now uses Firefox and literally can't get most spyware, however trying to explain this concept to him is difficult and I can see it just going over his head.
If average users did understand these things, then everyone would patch and keep things up to date and would have Firefox installed anyway but as we know this will never happen. In comparison it would be a bit like we techies limiting our computer use, not playing video games and playing sport and not eating ramen and so on because "someone in the news said it was good for us". I'm sure somewhere there will be an employee management oriented
Now how do you convince the (non-technical) helpdeskmensch that just wants to get rid of you, that they are obliged to make their website work with the new Netscape (read: Mozilla)? They just give you the usual "Most people use MSIE, so use MSIE" tripe.... :-(
Free, as in your money being freed from the confines of your account.
No points for posts that just agree with stuff and it has already been modded up but it's not just in this guy's HO (ITGHO) either - all intranet apps these days use all kinds of windows specific stuff to make web apps more like traditional apps. Some mix and match javascript, vbscript, java and activex to get what they want in a refreshable interface.
...
This is the first place we need to start curing. Thing is that they will al have to be changed at once because most places now have a mix of webapps internally - so web interfaces from a few different vendors plus the intranet plus the webmail plus plus plus.
Weird. I didn't believe you, so I went to the link in FireFox on WinXP. It did exactly what you said. MSIE gives a "The page cannot be displayed ... Cannot find server or DNS Error"
:)
In FireFox on Linux, it goes to http://www.http.com/www.ebay.com due to attempting to correct for the user mistake (Changing the second http to www.http.com). I wonder why Windows does that? It doesn't appear to be something that they hard-coded into Windows DNS resolution.
BTW, both machines are using the same DNS resolvers (mine) and are on the same network.
To keep on topic, after the last round of MSIE exploits, and cleaning up hundreds of pieces of spyware, most of the people I know either switched to FireFox or Opera on Windows. Of course us Linux users already have a whole bunch of choices.
Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
It does that for me too.
I tried with just http://http and it still did it.
I noticed in my status bar, there was a quick flash of a google URL, so I tried searching for "http" on google, and there the answer was
The 'fox seems to be running an "I'm feeling Lucky" search on the non-existant name. I have googlebar, so I'm not sure if this is native behavior or added in.
I used to get high on life, but I developed a tolerance. Now I need something stronger.
Use the Firesomething extension: "Modifies the product name in the browser titlebar, Help menu, and About dialog titlebar."
Stupid job ads, weird spam, occasional insight at
Get yourself an ass-covering letter. Go to your boss and ask them to sign a letter which states that you, J Random Sysadmin, advised them to stop using Internet Explorer in favour of Firefox for reasons of security on suchandsuch a date.
Be serious about this - on the one hand, it might make your boss realise that you're not dicking about. And if he still refuses to switch, and you've got a signed letter, it might save your job some day.
Heh, try every mouse-happy kid and teacher in the whole school district. Now THAT's fun. And also the reason we're getting Deep Freeze. :)
youll find the site here: http://www.heise.de/security/dienste/browsercheck/ - i'm too lazy right now to find an english equivalent, but i'm sure there must be some.
I hope I didn't brain my damage.
All this talk about dumping IE in a corporate environment is laughable for most companies.
The reality is that many corporations (mine included) rely on browser-based applications, day in and day out, that REQUIRE Internet Explorer. I don't know what rock some folks have been under but wake up! Mozilla (Firefox, etc) for all of it's technical merits, has not enjoyed enough market penetration to warrant the time and effort by many software vendors necessary to make their app compatible with anything other than IE.
So simply saying "Gee boss, let's use this really cool browser" doesn't make sense when you consider the impact to day-to-day operations.
That is standard behaviour in 0.8 (maybe other versions; that's what i'm running) the built-in 'search bar' does a standard google search. typing a random word into the address bar does a 'lucky search.
Cost of cleaning up the mess after the next zero-day IE 'sploit or mail worm sweeps through your Windows network for the 74th time this year? Priceless.