Bar Coding The World Away

More digits... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-12 03:35 · Score: 5, Funny

...to include the "evil bit"?

Re:More digits... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-12 03:37 · Score: 3, Insightful

And the Antichrist causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

And that no man might buy or sell, save except he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

-- Rev 13:16-18 KJV
Re:More digits... by marius4143 · 2004-07-12 03:48 · Score: 2, Funny

My kid's going to be pissed when his Scannerz toy stops working.
Re:More digits... by finkployd · 2004-07-12 04:03 · Score: 2, Funny

So as long as we are marking merchandise and not people we are cool then, right?

Finkployd
Re:More digits... by cayenne8 · 2004-07-12 05:11 · Score: 4, Interesting

"...we already have Social Security Numbers that follow us eveywhere"
Well, that doesn't HAVE to be true...unless a transaction that is taking place involves SS taxable income,etc, you do NOT have to give your SS#, and I pretty much do not.
Sure it is inconvenient, but, it can be done. When I wanted a cell phone, or ordered new cable service...I refused to give my SS#. In the case of the cell phone, they were just using it to run a credit check...and I want as few of those run as possible as that it can affect your credit rating, but, I digress. I had to give them something like a $200 deposit, and got signed up. I think I got the deposit sent back to me less than a year later.
I had a hassle at a company I worked for once...I refused to let the company's insurance have my SS...I told them to generate a new ID for me...after a little bitching...they gave me one. Thankfully, it is getting alittle easier to avoid giving the SS these days...due to people understanding identity theft being a problem (I've had mine stolen 3 times).
Not to mention the fact, it is a horrible number for a unique identifier from a database viewpoint. It cannot be counted on to be unique....the numbers are recycled...you cannot count on everyone HAVING one...and you cannot count on them being exactly 9 digits...many foreign national guests of the military are given special 'SS' numbers...that have extra digits to identify them as special...etc.
So, just because someone asks for it, you don't have to give it......and you should not!

--
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Re:More digits... by cayenne8 · 2004-07-12 05:35 · Score: 2, Interesting

"What in the world for? Are these people working, and having money drawn out to pay for retirement? If not, isn't it just another military ID number unrelated to the SS number?"
I dunno...never heard the true explanation, but, got the info from our SME (subject matter expert) on a DoD database project I worked on once...

--
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Re:More digits... by Rei · 2004-07-12 05:43 · Score: 4, Interesting

You know, there are many long-continued misunderstandings of the bible and within the bible itself, and the whole "666" thing is one of them (the former category). It's not three sixes. It's chi-xi-digamma. The greek counting system used their alphabet. Instead of having a set of only 10 numbers total and having the ordering determine significant digits such as we do, they assigned 10 numbers for the 1s digit, another 10 for the 10s digit, another 10 for the 100s, etc. And, instead of having separate characters as we do, they used their alphabet (in addition to some discontinued alphabetic characters, such as the digamma). So, the mark of the beast isn't three identical sixes; it is both a specific number (six hundred sixty and six) and a name (chi-xi-digamma).

Other common misunderstandings: "Lucifer" (Lux+Ferre = Light Bringer) is not Satan; the phrase is "a ROPE through the eye of a needle" (camelis != camel!!!); there is linguistic confusion over whether Mary was a virgin (neanis vs. parthenos, alma vs. bethusaleh, etc; there's also some evidence that parthenos did not carry its modern connotation); etc

--
"If there was an antonym to 'Elon Musk', it would be 'Richard Branson'."
Re:More digits... by Shakrai · 2004-07-12 07:11 · Score: 2, Informative

It cannot be counted on to be unique....the numbers are recycled

Are you trolling or just tin-foiled? According to the source SS numbers are not reused. To quote: "No. We do not reassign a Social Security number (SSN) after the number holder's death."

Not that I don't agree with you on refusing to give it out -- I don't see why my power company needs to know what it is. But they don't recycle the numbers.

--
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
Re:More digits... by cayenne8 · 2004-07-12 07:32 · Score: 3, Informative

Very interesting...I stand corrected. My original source must have been in error.
I was apparently mis-informed about this when I worked for Acxiom.....and they move so much 'people' data around, I'd taken this as truth there...they ran into lots of problems of SS#'s being dupes for different peoples' records...
I was told that there used to be a real problem with the 'fake' SS card they used to put in new wallets...people were thinking that was the way they were assigned a SS number...and were using it as such. That one sounded so goofy, that it actually sounded plausible, but, thanks for the link above...I'll have to look into this some more..

--
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........

Why not be smarter? by Pig+Hogger · 2004-07-12 03:36 · Score: 4, Interesting

Why not take the time to implement a flexible sytem which may allow to encore an arbitrary number of characters?

This would last forever and be able to migrate through other technologies, such as RFID.

Re:Why not be smarter? by mopslik · 2004-07-12 03:41 · Score: 4, Insightful

Why not take the time to implement a flexible sytem which may allow to encore an arbitrary number of characters?

I imagine it has to do with simplifying the amount of work done by barcode readers. Similar to IPv6. Bigger, longer... but still fixed-length.

That last bit makes me feel dirty.
Re:Why not be smarter? by LostCluster · 2004-07-12 03:47 · Score: 4, Interesting

Barcodes themselves can be as long as the user wants them to be. We're just talking about a change in the addressing scheme that is the UPC code to have another digit. Anybody who assumed UPCs were no bigger than 12 characters now has a Y2K-ish overflow issue.
Re:Why not be smarter? by MarkedMan · 2004-07-12 03:55 · Score: 4, Informative

Arbitrary length barcode standards do exist (EAN-128 for example), but they are complex beasts and great care must be taken to ensure both the creater and reader get everything exactly right. The UPC or EAN-13 have the advantage of being simple. There may be multiple barcodes on a box, but only one of them would be in the UPC/EAN-13 symbology. I suppose you could create a new symbology just for that, but every reader in existence would be obsolete.

In the end, that's what it boils down too: anything that would allow varying length would make way too much software and hardware obsolete. The cost/benefit would be astronimically bad.
Re:Why not be smarter? by Citizen+of+Earth · 2004-07-12 03:57 · Score: 2, Insightful

Bigger, longer... but still fixed-length.

Fellows' Law: All fixed-length fields are too short.
Re:Why not be smarter? by pla · 2004-07-12 04:53 · Score: 2, Informative

Why not take the time to implement a flexible sytem which may allow to encore an arbitrary number of characters?

Actually, EAN does include exactly such a capability... You can basically tack on additional groups of digits to form a longer, still-valid EAN barcode.

Most commonly used, you'll find EAN+5 on many books. Of readers I've worked with, though, every single one (that could handle +5) would read out as wide as they could physically scan.

Just because you have a hammer, though, don't make the mistake of seeing everything as a nail - If you want a lot more information, you really want a 2d symbology such as PDF417 or code 128. EAN (and the similar but weaker UPC) only exists for the specific purpose of encoding a few digits for the purpose of product ID. It has a bit of expansion capability built in, but they never meant it as a barcode to do everything.

Damn by The-Bus · 2004-07-12 03:36 · Score: 5, Funny

Now I have to go update the tattoo on the back of my neck...

--

Small potatoes make the steak look bigger.

Re:Damn by MajorDick · 2004-07-12 03:41 · Score: 3, Interesting

Dont laugh, I have my SS# on my leg.....yes for real.....

Why ? I was bored, and had a scar that needed covered, I couldnt think of anything that wouldnt be lame skulls etc, non my taste, so I figured If I ever get amnesia it would be nice to have (in case your wondering I'v had maybe 4 concussions, been declared dead once and had a skull fracture, perhaps THAT explains why I had my SS# put on my leg) in addiditon just in case noone has a scanner handy it is also printed in digits below as well.
Re:Damn by October_30th · 2004-07-12 03:45 · Score: 2, Funny

in case your wondering I'v had maybe 4 concussions, been declared dead once and had a skull fracture, perhaps THAT explains why I had my SS# put on my leg
Are you a) a racing driver, b) in the military or c) into extreme sports?

--
The owls are not what they seem
Re:Damn by Chainsaw · 2004-07-12 04:23 · Score: 4, Funny

Are you a) a racing driver, b) in the military or c) into extreme sports?
d) stalked by a psycotic ex-girlfriend?

--
War is one of the most horrible things a human can be exposed to. And one of the worlds largest industries.
Re:Damn by MajorDick · 2004-07-12 04:39 · Score: 4, Interesting

Motorcycle racing, actually Ive never hurt myself in a race , only in dorking around in practice and nearly all have been due to mechanical failure. In addition to my mentioned head injuries, I've broken my elbow, wrist, 10 ribs (at various times of course) my jaw, my right foot (twice) a couple of fingers and toes and had my knees so tore up I'm 33 and looking at knee replacments (actually I should say looking forward to then the damm things wont hurt anymore)

But its all been worth it, I've had a blast Ive been racing since I was 9 , first Junior MX, Then by 14 Flat Track, then I got into Road Racing and I'm still doing it, although in the last 2 years I've raced Vintage, probably will till I croak, Ive actually thought SERIOUSLY about doing the Isle of Man TT, but I havent had a sponsor (other than contingency sponsors) since I was 18
Re:Damn by rpresser · 2004-07-12 04:54 · Score: 2, Funny

Tell the truth: your name is Leonard Shelby, isn't it? Or Sammy Jankis?
Re:Damn by Idarubicin · 2004-07-12 05:10 · Score: 2, Funny

In addition to my mentioned head injuries, I've broken my elbow, wrist, 10 ribs (at various times of course) my jaw, my right foot (twice) a couple of fingers and toes and had my knees so tore up I'm 33 and looking at knee replacments...
Have you seen the movie The Shawshank Redemption? Tommy is a fairly young man who has been convicted once again for breaking and entering. After relating the tale of his most recent arrest, and describing how he had served time all over the state, the protagonist Andy asks him a question.
Andy Dufresne: Maybe you should try a new career.
Tommy: What's that?
Andy: I said, since you don't have much success as a thief, you should try a new career.
Tommy: Oh, yeah? Well, what do you know about it Al Capone?
I mean, I'm glad you've found a hobby that you enjoy, but maybe if you've broken most of the bones in your body, crippled your knees, and nearly killed yourself more than once...it might be time to consider a sport that's a little safer. Skydiving, for example. Cheers! :)

--
~Idarubicin
Re:Damn by Alsier · 2004-07-12 06:19 · Score: 2, Funny

You wouldn't, by chance, have a tattoo on your back that reads "Don't trust the skull", would you?

Bwahaha by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-12 03:36 · Score: 4, Funny

And next: the metric system. Eat this, oversea refugees... ;-)

Get me a rewrite... by LostCluster · 2004-07-12 03:36 · Score: 4, Insightful

12-digit bar codes aren't quite going to be retired, but US and Canadian retailers will be expected to be able to tolerate 13-digit codes as of January 2005. This sounds a lot like the Y2K situation... anybody whose database and/or software assumed it was a 12-digit field is now going to have to account for an extra digit and that's going to mean patches and code rewrites all around.

It's good news for the geeks... more work for us to do.

Re:Get me a rewrite... by furball · 2004-07-12 03:40 · Score: 4, Interesting

Wal-Mart has been running with 13-digit codes for almost forever now. Amazon does likewise.

To the best of my knowledge, I don't know anyone that works with strictly 12-digit codes on any mass level. Perhaps it's just the mom&pop shops with their possibly custom software that runs with 12-digits only.
Re:Get me a rewrite... by Peyna · 2004-07-12 03:45 · Score: 2, Interesting

I don't think it'll be that difficult actually; it didn't take very long at all for Best Buy to modify their scanners to adapt to a host of different types of barcodes used for different things. For instance, all of the signs in the stores have a bar code which is actually the UPC + 1 digit sign style identifier + price; which allows employees to quickly scan the sign to verify if it displays the correct price.

People using older cash register systems might be SOL though.

--
What?
Re:Get me a rewrite... by MarkedMan · 2004-07-12 04:09 · Score: 4, Interesting

Just a nit, but one that happens to affect me greatly. The reality is that the people printing and/or applying the barcodes are the packaging operations. They typically understand very little. For some odd reason, the UPC standard prints the check digit in the interpretation (the human readable part of the barcode). Why is this an issue? Because one of the common mistakes operators make is to enter the entire code, including the check digit. So there are twelve digits when we were expecting eleven. Did they fat finger an extra character or enter the check digit?

We've tried a few different ways over the years to insure the right number of characters, including forcing eleven by cropping, forcing eleven by not allowing entry (no good if the table is a linked one and the entry is outside of our software) or allowing 11 or 12 and checking the checksum if there are twelve. All this matters because the equipment used to print the barcode typcially generates the check digit on its own, and the different manufacturers handle excess digits in several different ways.

The new standard now says we have three choices: 11,12 or 13. What do we do now? I'm not expecting an answer, because in the end we have to balance all the considerations and make Hobson's choice.

I'm not even going to go into the major US corporation whose database consists of 10,11 or 12 digit UPC codes, because in the beginning, that first digit was always the same, so why waste space on it?

Just goes to show you that when volume and/or speed increases, everything gets complicated (except rock).
Re:Get me a rewrite... by letxa2000 · 2004-07-12 04:24 · Score: 5, Informative

12-digit UPC-A codes are automatically EAN-13 codes. When EAN-13 was deployed, they essentially pulled a Microsoft... they "embraced and extended" UPC-A. All UPC-A codes can be scanned by EAN-13 scanners because the EAN-13 is an extension of UPC-A. However, not all UPC-A scanners can automatically understand the extended EAN-13 barcodes.
This has meant that UPC-A barcodes can be scanned worldwide but EAN-13 barcodes produced in other countries could not be scanned in the U.S. because U.S. POS systems didn't understand the "extended" version (EAN-13). This meant that manufacturers outside the U.S. had to have an EAN-13 barcode for the "rest of the world" and a UPC-A barcode for the U.S.--U.S. manufacturers only needed a UPC-A barcode because it works worldwide.
The only thing that is changing here is a requirement that U.S. retailers use POS systems that are able to read an EAN-13 barcode and that their database support it (i.e. the code field must support 13 digits rather than just 12). This is so that a barcode produced in other parts of the world can be scanned in the U.S.
Thus it's not that UPC-A is being "retired"--it's just that U.S. retailers will be expected to be able to handle foreign barcodes.
Re:Get me a rewrite... by Atzanteol · 2004-07-12 04:25 · Score: 2, Funny

Bah! If you're going to arbitrarily bash Bush, at least do it well!

If Bush gets re-elected then fire and brimstone will rain from the sky! Thus rendering all small businesses destroyed.

Mark my words, fire and brimstone.

--
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge"

- Charles Darwin
Re:Get me a rewrite... by delphi125 · 2004-07-12 04:53 · Score: 2, Informative

You do understand what the check digit is for? It is to (tada!) CHECK that the correct code has been entered. So why on earth would it be a 'common mistake' for an operator to enter the entire code?

Now, I realize that the parent DOES realize these problems, but he makes it clear that the equipment manufacturers themselves DONT.

The digit isn't there just to protect against machine error (or smudging of the bar codes), it is there to protect against human error too - mis-typed or transposed digits. So use it.

Not always entering the check digit is equivalent to having a RAID 1 disk with a single disk.
Re:Get me a rewrite... by MarkedMan · 2004-07-12 05:29 · Score: 2, Interesting

In a perfect world, you are absolutely correct. But the reality, which is what I have to deal with, is far from that perfect world. UPC codes can come from a database, in which case they were obtained or generated without the check digit, or they can come from an operator. Any practical system must accomodate both inputs (plus even more, but these two make my point).

Believe me, it would never be acceptable in a production environment to say "our product will shut down your production until a) you have the database fixed or b) you have the operator better trained.

BTW, input is only one reason for the check digit. Probably more important is that it allows the scanner to know whether or not it misread the barcode.
Re:Get me a rewrite... by johnnyb · 2004-07-12 05:35 · Score: 2, Insightful

"For Bush to be re-elected he must first be elected"

In case you didn't notice, all Florida recounts done after the election pointed to Bush as the winner.

--
Engineering and the Ultimate

Woah... by perly-king-69 · 2004-07-12 03:36 · Score: 5, Funny

For a minute there I thought it said that Americans were going to fall in line with a European designed system.

Is this an April fool dupe or something? ;-)

--

--
This sig is inoffensive.

Re:Woah... by BigBir3d · 2004-07-12 03:57 · Score: 2, Insightful

private sector floating the cost versus the us gov't paying to re-do all the highway signs and whatnot.
Re:Woah... by Seek_1 · 2004-07-12 04:15 · Score: 2, Insightful

Well, speaking as someone else on this side of 'the pond' I really can't understand why Americans fight to keep their complicated, quirky and backward system when metric is JUST SO MUCH FRIKKIN' EASIER! The metric system is used by the majority of scient communities all over the world people, learn to use it!!
Re:Woah... by sindarin2001 · 2004-07-12 04:32 · Score: 2, Insightful

It's amazing how many Joe Sixpacks think that the metric system is "hard". Personally, I prefer to work in metric, even though I am an American. The whole system is much more organized...and I only have to memorize powers of ten rather than 24, 12, 16, 3, 5280, etc. Of course speed limits and such I'm still stuck with non-metric. I support the switch.
Re:Woah... by The+Conductor · 2004-07-12 04:35 · Score: 2, Funny

I don't know if you are serious in suggesting that conversion to metric costs less than losing space probes, but the notion is rather implausbible, considering the cost of, for example, razing Detroit to the ground so that 8-mile road can be rebuilt on the 13-km mark. And the savings of the one, holy & catholic measurement system may not be so apparent when someone conflates, say, newtons with kilogram-force and crashes some other space probe. (I would claim that the savings of a complete conversion to metric, from now to forever, would not recover the conversion costs, once everything is adjusted to present value.)

The real problem with the Mars probe was not the use of traditional units, but the failure to specify & check the units. You should always specify units: always, always, always. A metric world cannot change that.
Re:Woah... by the+eric+conspiracy · 2004-07-12 04:57 · Score: 4, Insightful

Well, while decimal has it's advantages because it is aligned with base ten which is the most commonly used numbering system, units of measure using other bases like 12 and 60 have advantages as well in that they have more factors. 60, for example has factors of 2,3,4,5,6,10,15,20 and 30.

For example, if an hour was 10 minutes, a quarter hour would be a fractional number of minutes. Not so in the base 60 system. Likewise, the foot, being 12 inches can be divided into more parts than a decimal foot could be.

We might want to consider getting rid of decimal numbering and going to duodecimal, and then adopting a self consistent set of units in the new numbering system as a superiour alternative to that crazy scheme developed by the cheese eating, wine drinking, unbathed, Godless French.
Re:Woah... by br0ck · 2004-07-12 05:15 · Score: 2, Funny

Step off ho, I'm from the 12.874752 kilometer!
Re:Woah... by Yeochee · 2004-07-12 06:18 · Score: 2, Insightful

You'd be suprised how easy it is to get used to new values. It's been only a few years since we switched from our national currencies to the Euro, and already I hardly ever convert a price back to my former currency (Belgian francs). In the beginning it took a bit getting used to, and the first few months everybody was constantly converting to old currencies, but since all prices are now in Euro, you get used to it very fast.
Re:Woah... by forged · 2004-07-12 07:11 · Score: 2, Insightful

Fractions... Who needs fractions ? You get two hands and each holds 5 fingers... 5 + 5 = 10 (tada!)... It's that simple, really. No need to complicated issues, and later think what's that screw size again, or what's an 1/1.8" CCD in real units, not to mention interoperability with foreign countries (assuming the UK would go along with it too).
Your example about one hour makes little sense: if an hour was 10 minutes, half-an-hour would be 5 minutes...easy. One quarter of an hour would still be one quarter of an hour. And instead of rounding everything up to multiples of 2 or 5 minutes, we would have learned the length of time of one minute, and we'd all be speaking in minutes instead of trying to find a higher meaningful multiple value. So actually this would even work nicely :-)

How long? by toasted_calamari · 2004-07-12 03:37 · Score: 2, Interesting

My question is how long will it take to get all the barcodes reassigned, and all the barcode hardware changed. I seem to recall that a large portion of US barcode readers are hardcoded to 12 digits. How much will this new bit of regulation cost?

--
Let's make a difference

Re:How long? by TopShelf · 2004-07-12 03:40 · Score: 3, Insightful

I doubt that hardware is going to be the problem, but rather the software that accepts the data. There may be a few applications where the logic is burnt in, but by and large, the barcode reader is just another input device, and it's the software that needs to change.

--
Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
Re:How long? by Chess_the_cat · 2004-07-12 03:41 · Score: 3, Interesting

Who says the US won't just forget the whole thing and start switching everything to RFID? Good time to start.

--
Support the First Amendment. Read at -1
Re:How long? by TopShelf · 2004-07-12 03:59 · Score: 3, Informative

Maybe in your experience that's the case, but by and large, the middle 10 digits contain the main information that a retailer would use. Digits 2-6 denote the manufacturer of the item, and 7-11 are the item's ID. Throughout the supply chain on the way to a retail store, unique logic can often be applied based on the manufacturer ID. They might read digits 2-6, for example, and that would determine a specific label that needs to be generated, which would use digits 7-11 to pull the item info. Now they'd need to adjust that logic to account for the extra digit.

Like someone else mentioned, it's not a difficult problem to solve, but the testing will just take a good deal of effort.

--
Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
Re:How long? by freeze128 · 2004-07-12 04:43 · Score: 3, Funny

Can I still use my Cue-Cat?
Re:How long? by hamsterboy · 2004-07-12 04:43 · Score: 2, Informative

Expense. Privacy concerns. Entrenched systems. Training. Lack of standards. I can think of lots of reasons.

welcome ... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-12 03:37 · Score: 3, Funny

I for one welcome our new euro-barcode overlords

saw this coming by frovingslosh · 2004-07-12 03:38 · Score: 2, Informative

I for one welcome the New World Order and our European Article Numbering Code Overlords.

--
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.

old tech and fucture tech? by blanks · 2004-07-12 03:38 · Score: 2, Interesting

What happens with all the old hardware/software that currently exists? How long until people will need to migrate to the new system, and will such things as rfid support the number system?

--
TruePunk | Games

Re:old tech and fucture tech? by ajlitt · 2004-07-12 03:50 · Score: 3, Interesting

Many modern (made within the last 5-10 years) barcode scanners are firmware-upgradeable. New standards for barcodes are always being released by one industry or another, and systems within manufacturing, shipping, and warehousing companies need to adapt to handling the new data formats quickly.

As for the older, fixed function models, well, barcode readers get a lot of abuse, and are usually replaced every so often anyway due to wear and tear. Even better, the older supermarket checkout units have HeNe gas-discharge lasers which have a much shorter service life than their solid-state counterparts.

let me hit you with some knowledge by spoonyfork · 2004-07-12 03:38 · Score: 4, Informative

In June of 1974, the first U.P.C. scanner was installed at a Marsh's supermarket in Troy, Ohio. The first product to have a bar code was Wrigley's Gum.

--
Speak truth to power.

Re:let me hit you with some knowledge by slimyrubber · 2004-07-12 03:56 · Score: 3, Interesting

And the first bar code reader was built by Woodland (who was an IBM employee at the time) and Silver in 1952 and included a 500 watt light bulb and a photomultiplier vacuum tube made by RCA for movie sound tracks.

GASP!

--
[ I can not bring myself to believe that if knowledge presents danger, the solution is ignorance ] -- Isaac Asimov
Re:let me hit you with some knowledge by hamsterboy · 2004-07-12 04:47 · Score: 2, Informative

Perhaps. But the scanner that read that first pack of Juicy Fruit was a Spectraphysics Model A. The company (the one I work for, incidentally), after many mergers and acquisitions, is now known as PSC.

Hamster

When a domain runs out of numbers... by LostCluster · 2004-07-12 03:42 · Score: 4, Insightful

Also on our radar screens should be the fact that the US PSTN numbering scheme keeps getting more lines and is coming closer to the point that the (xxx)-yyy-zzzz numbering format is about to hit the wall. The rule that declared the center digit of an area code had to be 0 or 1 fell years ago. If an extra digit ever gets added anywhere, a lot of PBX systems are going to not like the new numbers.

IPv4 is also in trouble in this area, and IPv6 is waiting in the wings to take over. However, NAT seems to be good enough in stretching out single IP addresses to multiple computers so I don't know if we'll ever be forced to convert over.

Re:When a domain runs out of numbers... by vlm · 2004-07-12 04:48 · Score: 2, Informative

PSTN is not having a problem due to lack of numbers. npa-nxx-xxxx after all provides 10 billion numbers and there are only about a thirtieth of that here.

The problem is the little "competitive" dot-bombs that recently formed and want number space for sparsely populated LATAs

Example... Ma Bell wastefully allocated (123)-45x-xxxx to the city of Bozo. Now Bozo only has 100 residents so thats quite wasteful but tolerable, as Ma Bell planned for such wast 50 years ago. However, what happens when 5 new dot-bomb companies move in and want to sell local telephone service? That's right they all get x-xxxx sized number blocks. So now 50000 phone numbers are tied up by the metropolis of Bozo which only has 100 residents anyway.

That is why there were a zillion NPA splits in the late ninties and why the rate of growth has slowed:
1) The dot bombs are going away
2) The software is improving so instead of assigning 10000 number blocks you can assign perhaps 100 number blocks.

--
"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
Re:When a domain runs out of numbers... by bigpat · 2004-07-12 05:06 · Score: 4, Insightful

"IPv4 is also in trouble in this area, and IPv6 is waiting in the wings to take over. However, NAT seems to be good enough in stretching out single IP addresses to multiple computers so I don't know if we'll ever be forced to convert over."

Although I agree essentially with what you say, I think far too many people don't realize that "good enough" will be at the cost of future economic and internet growth. There are many potentially very profitable communications, collaborative and gaming applications that are currently being restrained by IP address scarcity.

Globally addressable numeric addresses enable end to end communication. What we lose when using NAT is simplicity. Simplicity is what would enable more communications applications to become practicle. As it is now, when using NAT, either the application software or user needs to do extra work either setting up a static route or discovering a route through a NAT. It should be clear that this unnecessary complexity imposed by the artificial scarcity of IP addresses limits the broader practicality of direct (most efficient) end-to-end video, voice and data communications over IP.

Sure, there are some companies that profit from the scarcity of IPv4 addresses, but this is akin to the rise in gas prices, which raises oil company profits, but at the expense of a far greater number of people and companies that would have otherwise benefited from the increase of commerce that results when energy and transportation costs go down.

Comunication cost and ease of communication are fundamental economic drivers. When communication is easier and cheaper, the economy as a whole will be better. Replacing IPv4 with IPv6 means communication would be both easier and cheaper(as long as the rollout costs don't get out of hand).

end of the bar by Doc+Ruby · 2004-07-12 03:43 · Score: 4, Funny

The US codes have 12 digits; the EU codes, to account for 12 countries and about 25% greater population, have 13. Now the unified system has 13, with 225% the population, globalism, and 30 years of using up codes. Seems like barcode system upgrades are a perpetual growth industry.

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make install -not war

Re:Mobile Phones by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-12 03:44 · Score: 2, Informative

Err, except that in the US you get a *choice* of which type of carrier you want. You can get a GSM phone if you'd like, but I think that everyone (including the Europeans, who are basing their next system on it) realizes that CDMA is superior to GSM.

Besides, cross-Europe standards make sense: European countries are small, and border crossings are common. The same is not true of North America, where the countries are large (2 of them being the number 2 and 3 largest countries in terms of size), and the phone systems between Mexico, the US, and Canada are fairly compatible.

It's about time by 1u3hr · 2004-07-12 03:46 · Score: 5, Interesting

You may notice that most books sold in the USA have two barcodes, an EAN-13 one (for the rest of the world) and a UPC one. It's a drag having to support those troglodyte US companies that insist on having their UPC. Books published overseas often have to pay to have a UPC code stickered to them.

Next up, metres and kilogrammes (you can spell them American if you really want).

Re:It's about time by Rolo+Tomasi · 2004-07-12 03:59 · Score: 3, Funny

Next up, metres and kilogrammes (you can spell them American if you really want).
As far as I know, the U.S. military uses metric exclusively. Also, they use the 24 hour format, not that idiotic AM/PM stuff. So, with the military dictatorship coming in a few months, your wish might come true. ;-)

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Did you know you can fertilize your lawn with used motor oil?
Re:It's about time by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-12 03:59 · Score: 2, Funny

Next up, metres and kilogrammes (you can spell them American if you really want).

What do you mean yards and miles?
Re:It's about time by IWannaBeAnAC · 2004-07-12 04:35 · Score: 2, Funny

Height in feet, distance in kilometres and speed in knots is part of international air law.
Makes it a pain in the ass for glider pilots who want to calculate glide ratios!
Re:It's about time by 1u3hr · 2004-07-12 04:38 · Score: 2, Insightful

Some AC wrote:
>Do you think the US actually cares if you have to pay extra for putting a sticker on something?

Obviously not.

>Compared to translation costs and the like (most of the EU does not speak English), adopting UPC is not that big of a deal, and less so now given the standard.

EAN is actually the standard everywhere, not just Europe, except the US. There are other countries in the world that publish in English, you know (the UK, Australia, NZ, for a start). When they export books to the US, they had to either print a special edition or sticker them with UPCs.

Why the hell are they doing this? by TyrranzzX · 2004-07-12 03:46 · Score: 2, Interesting

It makes no sense. Why the hell would you want to move everyone onto the same UPC code standard? Ok, fine, you can standardise devices, big freggin deal. Barcode reading software is minimal, as are the readers. Sure, it may also make it easier to streamline shipping; the boxes could arrive at the store pre-upc'd and numbered and ready to go: TP get's it's own bar-code addressing space, whuptiedoo.

Then again, certain ISO standards....*shutter*.

For the tin foil madhatters out there, the standard doesn't provide enough addressing space to address dittly squat. I suppose getting everyone on the same standard is a step in that direction, since the next step could be setting up bar-codes that do have unique addresses (people'll be reading codes off in base-64) for later, but still.

Anyway, this may work in our favor; if the codes are standardised and it looks like there's country codes on them, one can memorise the codes you can tell which products are most likely baught from 3rd world countries via slave labor, and which are local. You can tell when they bring in the big crate of oranges from the big upc sticker weither or not they're from mexico and sprayed with DDT or not.

MMMMMMmmmm...I'v stayed up too late. I need to get some popcorn and coffie, get wired, and do some studying.

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Candy-Coated Knowledge

Re:Mobile Phones by strictnein · 2004-07-12 03:47 · Score: 2, Informative

Sorry, the US isn't the only one using TDMA/CDMA. In fact, over 202 million people use it worldwide, with over 120 million outside the US.

GSM has about 1 billion subscribers.

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Casual Games/Downloads

Inevitable by metamatic · 2004-07-12 03:47 · Score: 5, Insightful

Other inevitable and overdue US switchovers:

1. GSM mobile phones.
2. Metric. (*)
3. Standard international dialing. (00 + country)

And one I won't be holding my breath for:

4. A universal healthcare system.

(*) Laugh all you like, global corporations are gonna use metric for everything, not stupid US-only units. Eventually this will trickle down to everyday life. It may take decades, but...

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GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak

Re:Inevitable by KD5YPT · 2004-07-12 03:51 · Score: 2, Informative

Not sure what 1 is and why its important... 3, I could live without, but yeah, better standardize that... 4 would be nice... but 2 is a must have!!! The US system is FAR TOO CONFUSING to use in the scientific world.

I have a professor who actually think the base-unit in US for mass AND weight is the pound (he coined the word, pound-mass and pound-weight).
Just for those who don't know. The base-unit for mass in US-unit is a slug, the weight is a pound. And 32 slug = a pound because the acceleration due to gravity in US unit is 32 feet/second squared.

--
In US, you can easily buy enough major firearms to wipe out your neighbourhood but a few little fireworks are banned.
Re:Inevitable by Omega1045 · 2004-07-12 04:07 · Score: 2, Insightful

Funny side note of the universal healthcare. I have a friend here in the US that is currently working a "few years" assignment in Canada. He drives back to his home in the US about once a month to see friends, family and to do house chores. On his return trip to Canada his pickup is packed full of groceries for the month, plus any number of other items he may want like beer, cigs, moter oil, etc, etc, etc. From what I was told it is cheaper to drive a few hundred miles south into the US to buy these products and drive back than to buy them in Canada. This is thanks to high taxes in Canada, thanks to universal health care in Canada. He even picks up items for some of his coworkers that are in a similar situation.

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Great ideas often receive violent opposition from mediocre minds. - Albert Einstein

In other news... by 88NoSoup4U88 · 2004-07-12 03:48 · Score: 2, Funny

IO Interactive and Eidos have announced to issue an extra patch for all the Hitman series, updating your kick-ass mean mofo playercharacter, with these new barcodes.

I once went to a Church ... by theguywhosaid · 2004-07-12 03:59 · Score: 2, Interesting

... with a friend of mine, and all of the regular members had a barcode that was scanned for attendance. This really creeped me out, but the sevice (i guess it was more "sunday school") was nice, and I didn't have to get a code, since I was visiting. Does anyone know if this is common practice?

Re:I once went to a Church ... by James+Turpin · 2004-07-12 04:09 · Score: 2, Funny

You simply must tell us which church this was. That way all of us slashdotting bar code fans can join and mess-up their attendance statistics, while simultaneously making them appear to be the fastest growing religion in the world.

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Mathematics is not a crime.

OSR... by Cyno01 · 2004-07-12 04:05 · Score: 2, Funny

2. Metric. (*)

My car gets forty rods to the hogshead and that's the way I likes it!

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"Sic Semper Tyrannosaurus Rex."

Re:OSR... by Lehk228 · 2004-07-12 04:23 · Score: 2, Interesting

you put your rod in a hog's head?

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Snowden and Manning are heroes.

What happens to old bar codes? by midifarm · 2004-07-12 04:06 · Score: 4, Interesting

Let's say product X is assigned a barcode. Product X is discontinued. What happens to the assigned bar code?

BTW who assigns barcode numbers and do they reap huge financial rewards from performing such a task?

Peace

Re:What happens to old bar codes? by johnlcallaway · 2004-07-12 04:18 · Score: 2, Informative

As I recall, products are not assigned UPC codes, companies are. The first half of a UPC code is the company. They can use the last half in whatever manner they deem fit.

But I haven't worked with bar codes for about 10 years, I could have remembered that wrong.

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I rarely read replies, it's my opinion and if you thought about your opinion a little more, I'm OK with that.
Re:What happens to old bar codes? by wizardhat · 2004-07-12 05:07 · Score: 3, Informative

You need to be a member of the Uniform Code Council to get your own manufacturer ID:

http://www.uc-council.org/ean_ucc_system/members hi p/need_upc.htm

Re:Mobile Phones by Phillip2 · 2004-07-12 04:07 · Score: 2, Funny

Nuts. Satire lost to a typo.

"Next you'll be telling me that you don't use good old metre's and kilo's."

Re:Metric? by I+confirm+I'm+not+a · 2004-07-12 04:09 · Score: 2, Insightful

it's time to be rid of the old British system... EVEN BRITAIN DON'T USE THEM ANY MORE!!!

Oh, how I wish that were true. Britain still marks road signs in miles, sells milk in pints (this is a recent thing - it's getting so that it's difficult to buy litres of milk), and even has "Metric Martyrs" refusing - still - to adopt SI units.

New Zealand switched to Metric in the space of a few weeks - Britain is currently aiming for "a few decades...and counting".

...Not that I care, I just think the US approach - give people a choice - makes more sense than the UK approach of "half-arsed adoption of the Metric system followed by 30 years of whinging". Bloody poms ;)

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This is where the serious fun begins.

Re:Metric? by Sexy+Bern · 2004-07-12 04:16 · Score: 3, Informative

I am in the UK.

First, we tend to call them "Imperial" measurements, after the guy that invented them, Bob Imperial*.

Everybody under the age of about 40 has always been taught metric units from birth, so many of us have no real life experience using purely imperial units. However, we have plenty of infrastructures that will probably never swap over to metric, even in 30/40 years' time when there will be very few imperial-only peeps left.

All "long"-distance road signs in Britain are in miles. A sign saying "Birmingham 17" would indicate that Birmingham is 17 miles away.

HOWEVER, "short"-distance road signs tend to use metric units. "Humps for 200m" is a innuendo-laden example.

Speed limit signs are always in mph. Mechanical car speedos are marked in mph, with kph usually on there in significantly smaller digits. Mechanical car odometers are always in miles, but the newer digital combo displays can show all information in any combination.

Babies are weighed at birth, and everybody knows that a five-pounder is light, 7's about right and 10's a Christmas turkey.

And yes, before you ask, cocks are usually measured in inches here too.

There are some Canute-style Imperial zealots in the UK however.

* This is not true.

Oh the irony by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-12 04:17 · Score: 2, Insightful

If it was the US forcing the EAN-13 or metric system on another country with their quaint system of units and product scanning codes, Americans would be accused of cultural imperialism.

But for some reason it's fine for other countries to simultaneously complain about US cultural imperialism and mandate the US submit to the other country's own boring lifeless units.

Re:Metric? by Lehk228 · 2004-07-12 04:17 · Score: 4, Funny

the US uses metric, Litres for soda, and kilo's for weed

--
Snowden and Manning are heroes.

Re:Mobile Phones by gbjbaanb · 2004-07-12 04:19 · Score: 2, Informative

in case anyone else thought strictnein got his billions and millions mixed up..

This page shows you that latest numbers are 70% of subscribers use GSM, 12% CDMA.

Incidentally, the US are the heaviest users of mobile tech - 458 minutes per month on average!

Internationalism? Multinationalism? What? by Zany+Paraclete · 2004-07-12 04:19 · Score: 4, Funny

We all know that "global" means "European"; I'm fine with that. And the "international community" means the EU. No problem. Now that Europeans have repented of their colonialist/paternalis past, they're once again qualified to decide what's best for the rest of the world.

What's difficult is keeping track of which "international" things are evil and which are good.

"Multinational" is bad, right? Because it's got something to do with corporations, which are bad. Unless they're European. A "multinational" corporation is an American corporation which operates in more than one country, and it's bad, even if it practices "internationalization", in spite of the fact that "internationalization" is good (right?). But what about "multinational ism "? Is that one good or bad? I can't tell.

International standards are good, of course, provided that they're European, because then they're "multilateral" (which is good, I think, because "multilateral" means "involving any set of one or more nations which includes France"). If standards are not European, they're "unilateral", which is bad. "Unilateral" means "not including France" (or else "not excluding the US"), and it's very, very bad.

"Globalism" is good, because it includes France. "Globalization" is bad because, even though it includes France (except for Jose Bove), it doesn't exclude the US. "Globalism" is good because it excludes the US by definition: Anything which includes US is no longer "global". Instead, it's "hegemonic", which is very, very bad.

Did I miss any?

--

I've never yet met anybody who'll admit to posting on Slashdot. So who are all these people?!

Re:Mobile Phones by Phillip2 · 2004-07-12 04:23 · Score: 2, Funny

"Thats because you don't have a tri-band phone"

True. They're too expensive to be loosable at the moment.

"you should know already you need a tri-band phone if you are going to travel anywhere important in the world."

I do. I should get one at some point. As you say, it would be useful for going to Canada.

Phil

Re:Why... by KD5YPT · 2004-07-12 04:27 · Score: 2, Insightful

No one voted in IEEE (except for US and a selected few organization), but their standards on numbers, integer, ASCII, and various file formats plus wireless communication and TCP/IP are adopted by all as a necessity, why?

Because it's necessary, internet cannot possibly have form without a standard. No, European standards are not anymore global that US standard, but European standards are much widely adopted then the US standard. And having one standard allows everyone to do things more efficiently. Heck, having one standard language would be nice, we could invent one and call it the Common (French... too complicated. English... too ambiguous. Chinese... again, too complicated. Japanese... same problem with Chinese since they use some Chinese characters.). Hm... Tolkien's Elvish...

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In US, you can easily buy enough major firearms to wipe out your neighbourhood but a few little fireworks are banned.

No the Mark of the Beast! by Saturninus · 2004-07-12 04:36 · Score: 4, Funny

I don't appreciate the United State conforming to put the mark of the beast on everything. Heathens! I guess they want us all to get sent straight to hell. I'll be living in my bomb shelter until God tells me its okay to come back out again.

Gov't anti-metric by bill_mcgonigle · 2004-07-12 04:49 · Score: 4, Interesting

Metric is actively discouraged by the government. It's done under the guise of promoting it, and it's quite subtle.

For example, there'a sign on I-87 in NY which reads:

Montreal 300 miles (482.8 km)

There is no sign 50 miles later that says:

Montreal 400 km (248.5 miles)

so, you see, Imperial is easy, Metric is hard.

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My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)

Re:Gov't anti-metric by uberdave · 2004-07-12 14:43 · Score: 2, Insightful

Don't attribute something to malice that can easily be explained by stupidity. After all, it *is* the government.

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"I'm not impatient. I just hate waiting." - My Dad

Help! What's the politically-correct position? by Kohath · 2004-07-12 04:54 · Score: 2, Funny

Is this good news because the United States lost (and we're all supposed to hate the United States)? Or is it bad news because it aids globalization (which is -- um -- bad for some reason)?

Do I have to boycott barcoded products?

Fixed-length fields.... by FooAtWFU · 2004-07-12 05:18 · Score: 2, Funny

But 640k should be enough for everyone!

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The World Wide Web is dying. Soon, we shall have only the Internet.

cue cat by twitter · 2004-07-12 05:55 · Score: 2, Insightful

To the best of my knowledge, I don't know anyone that works with strictly 12-digit codes on any mass level. Perhaps it's just the mom&pop shops with their possibly custom software that runs with 12-digits only.

Dude, what about my Cue Cat? How's it going to be any better than the 20 year old IBM scanners that are so common? IBM and others might have a service to upgrade their machines but could easily abuse the situation. If there's a Microsoft system out there, the answer is going to be "buy another system" like any other piece of the upgrade train.

I expect that custom software owners will be in much better shape. It's not as good as free software, but people who are in touch with the software's writer will get fixes quickly and at reasonable cost.

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Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.

No link to the non-registeration page? by stry_cat · 2004-07-12 06:24 · Score: 2, Informative

I'm shocked no one has posted a link to the article that doesn't require registration.

Here it is: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/12/business/12barco de.html?ex=1090296000&en=0ba01a954e952cf8&ei=5006& partner=ALTAVISTA1

Now give me Karma! ;-)

The dirty little secret... by beakburke · 2004-07-12 15:53 · Score: 2

The EU and the rest of the free world get to reap any of the benefits of US action, and bare none of the costs, either financially or politically. Basically the world gets to have it both ways, benefit without risk for them, so it's really easy to be critical. This is a factual observation about what is, not one of judgement about the EU. Or, for those that like it hot, it's easy not to commit "war crimes" when someone else does all your fighting for you. :P

I don't intend to excuse legitimate abuses, but let's be honest about just how "fair" the ICC would be. A trial involving the US on the ICC would be about as objective as a all white jury in the south during the jim-crow era trying a black defendant accused of, say, rape. Who makes the international law anyways?? The ICC is legislature, judge and jury. Why anyone would want to be under the jurisdiction of a kangaroo court like the ICC is beyond me.

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----- Question authority, but not ours. Hate the man, but we're not him.

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