Slashdot Mirror
Japanese Schoolchildren to be Tagged with RFID
oostevo writes "CNET has reported that Japanese schoolchildren in the city of Osaka will be tagged with RFID tags. Apparently this is in addition to the trial program in Tabe that The Register reported earlier, where parents can track their children on their way to school."
How else will they know if their schoolchildren are being attacked by this month's Tentacle Monster?
52 Weeks, 52 Religions with John Hummel
The tags will be read by readers installed in school gates and other key locations to track the kids' movements.
/tinfoil_hat_on
/tinfoil_hat_stays_on
In 2 years replace the word 'kids' with 'employees'.
In 5 years replace the word 'employers' with 'shoppers'.
in 9 years replace the word 'shoppers' with...
They love electronics. They'll probably be signing up for Hello Kitty themed RFID tags voluntarily.
I can't think of any other culture that would want to do something like this. I love Japan. Everything about it seems to be 20 years in the future. If you ever say anything weird or unbelievable, add "in Japan" at the end, and it sounds more realistic.
Try it out.
Small potatoes make the steak look bigger.
I'd tell 'em they have it when they're old enough to understand. And if they don't like, when they're old enough they can take it out themselves.
.. if it saves one kid, then it's worth it...
Or just think about yourself trying to explain how you don't want to see this because it violates privacy to a parent whose child is missing/abducted..
The only problem with the way they are implementing it (and I don't see any workaround short of implanting the kids skin with RFID devices) is that since the tracking devices are tied to their book bags, if a pedo or other person wants the kid, they just have to drop or incapacitate the book bag chip .. thus making the tracking device useless.
,. than it might be useful.
Now if parents want to know if their kid is down at the pachinko parlour or some such
What happens when someone else besides the school is able to access them? I can view my whole school district's security cams and people think that is a privacy issue.
What is going to happen when someone is able to track these kids and it isn't the school?
Well I can understand all the privacy issues surrounding putting RFID tags on people, but it's not the worst idea in the world with kids on that age. I know it runs the risk of setting a precedent, but kids that age aren't really at the stage where they need a huge degree of independance from their parents, and aren't sneaking off to drink/smoke like high school kids might do, so it's not really a situation where the parents are violating their kids' privacy. It would certainly allay certain fears about kids being abducted or getting into trouble. The only thing that concerns me somewhat is the alarm on "danger areas", because that could be abused by an over-strict system.
Hmmm. Who wants to start placing bets on which child will emerge as the lone survivor of class 9-B?
Aside from the obviously frightening implications of this, how does it make sense? Are Japanese school children disappearing left and right? I thought Japan was an incredibly safe country.
On the other hand, if the kids are smart enough, think of the opportunity to play hookie: simply leave your RFID tag *within* the school, and sneak out! Go play video games all day, with an electronic alibi!
I am going to see if I can get work to start using these...
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Battle Royale
Xix.
"Everything is adjustable, provided you have the right tools"
they should tag the monsters? Giant Robo? anyone?
Come with us now as we study the migratory patterns of the Japanese School Child.
[Helicoptor flys over a school yard full of children, one is separated out from the herd and tranqualized with a dart, scientist staples an RFID tag in his ear...]
1. Copy the RFID tag of a classmate
2. Change it for yours when you're out of school.
3. Enter the max. number of shops/places considered "dangerous" for you in one day.
4. Restore your RFID before going home.
5. Make fun of the poor bastard the next day of class
No profit but lots of fun
I'm a chainsmokin' alcoholic sociopath, so-ci-o-path
With a few slight mods to the screen formats, the Online Herd Management System should be applicable to schools.
Let's keep in mind that a technology is not intrinsicly good or evil. The use of RFID tags on kids might or might not be acceptable, but it ends up as a very good way to keep track of little kids. Imho it's acceptable. Doesn't mean that scaling it to other circumstances would. Howeber, how long before they realize kids can drop the tags and then start implanting them beneath skin? Obviously the more imaginative among us can relate to sci-fi scenarios where you receive your tag when you're born, but they're not quite there yet. Wait and see? As for the slashdotter above that posted that odd things happen in Japan... actually the really odd things happen in the US. What's the last time you heard of someone being sued in Japan for a no-brainer? What other country defends abstinence as the primary means to counter Aids? I mean... c'mon. :)
"I don't mind God, it's his fan club I can't stand!" E8
Martin will no longer be alone.
Obscure Simpsons reference.
Seriously though, one has to wonder about the ethics of something like tagging humans. The example I think of is the debate in ethics about 'coercion'... which is usually wrong except in rare circumstances such as protecting your own children. RFID tracking might be fine if a parent wants to have it for their young children, but under no circumstances could be mandated for adults (which I would argue, is more like 13 and older)
What if we had grown up wearing RFID tags? We probably wouldn't be objecting to today's chidren wearing RFID tags. More likely, the argument would be about something like "Should RFID tags be implanted or worn outside the body?".
That's the real danger of children wearing RFID tags. They will lose the ability to object when their own children are violated.
Just what your local pedophile has been asking for all along.. a way to track kids so that they can grab them in much more concealed places. Oh look, that one kid just seperated from his friends and is now going down an empty street all by himself.. yum!
This is friggen nuts! How dehumanizing. To be tracked like an animal. It's appauling to the point of panic.
but then you couldn't put your kids in the microwave anymore.
And more importantly, it conditions them to be tracked more in the future. That may not *physically* harm them, but it's still damn creepy and arguably quite harmful. I sure wouldn't want it done to me.
Aand it was actually relatively skillfully done, in my opinion at least. You refute an argument by showing how its logic leads to absurdity. The argument isn't meant to provide a serious assertion, but rather an obviously silly assertion that reflects badly on the argument it is replying to.
The whole recurring theme about man and machine? Ghost in the Shell? Tetsuo in Akira merging with all the machinery around him? How many other examples can you name? I've always wondered why that's such a common idea in anime. I have my answer now.
It's because the Japanese think it's a good idea, that's why.
You know, Slashdot is a great place to be a geek. Look at the new technologies coming out, marvel at their application...but sometimes you just gotta say enough is enough.
And I have to draw the line right before RFID tagging my children.
It's impressively geeky, but c'mon guys - sometimes "because you can" isn't the right answer!
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
Seriously, I'm not joking at all. If you've been carrying an RFID tag as long as you can remember, requiring it by law won't seem like a big deal at all. Laws that take away freedoms are preceded by education campaigns to convince the public they want to give the freedom up.
I know a lot of people here think this can fight abduction. But how? Would a kidnapper really care whether or not the kid has a tag? If the sensors were placed EVERYWHERE, maybe they could track a missing child, but the abductor would certainly not stick around school with a tagged (or any) kid. I could see this as a potential means to fight truency, but not abduction.
Yes, kids are under adult attention a lot of the time. Still, I cannot dismiss this as just a "more efficient method" as you do. Is torture just a more efficient method of interrogation? Efficiency is not a justifying dictum, just a bonus.
That's your choice. Me, I do care. I'm not a totally paranoid tinfoil-hatter, but I have purposely avoided owning a cellphone and intend to continue doing so until it becomes an absolute necessity (if it does). And even then, I doubt I'll keep it with me all the time, much less on. I don't want to be reachable or trackable 24/7, that's not human nature, or at least not my nature.
This seems like a real waste of resources, especially in Japan, unless there's some kind of kidnapping wave there that I haven't heard about. And it encourages parents to complacently trust technology, rather than communicate directly with their children.
As for the slippery slope, remember that children have fewer rights than adults. To kids it looks like their rights are just suppressed, because they don't have the power to take it back. But it's actually because they are still learning to be people, when subordination to experience is necessary, and haven't actually developed the inalienable rights inherent in adults. Otherwise kids would have all emancipated themselves already, at latest in the 1960s when they all got money, cars, and TV role models.
It will be important to remember these distinctions when the police states attempt to raise the age of application of these tracking devices, saying that kids don't mind, why shouldn't adults, whose lives are risker. Adults who are monitored become even more neurotic, sources of risk. Monitoring us will make us less safe, as society becomes unhinged from the transferred social pressure. At least watching the increase in deviance, from unfairly implanted kids who are already developed into adults, will give us some data warning us away from general application of the technique.
--
make install -not war
Um, Denmark. RTFA.
I think you'd find that the most likely second target for a scheme like this would be (convicted) criminals, not employees.
(IIRC Most crimes are committed by repeat offenders)
First our pets and cattle, then our children, then criminals, then the rest of us.
A while ago, after reading a newspaper article about some hideous unsolved crime, I mentioned to a friend that we should start putting radiotags on criminals. Man, he hit the roof! Wow. He used a variety of terms to describe this idea, the one that I remember most was 'Nazi'.
Radio tagging people has its merits and can certainly make the world a 'Better Place'(tm), but it is simply too prone to abuse/misuse.
Who would you trust to manage and control the monitoring system? Your government? The United Nations? Your local police department? Your favourite church/religion/cult/sect?
Japan is far from having the "lowest crime rate imaginable"
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
If this could prevent child-napping, yes I'd put one on my kids.
The odds of being kidnapped (in general, of course if your area has higher stats, then my arguments change) are so low that this sort of thing doesn't do a lot of good. The odds are very high, however, of RFID tags being used for undesirable purposes (unless RFID is well-regulated with regards to privacy, which seems unlikely at this point).
We have:
1. A dubious benefit.
2. A certain detriment.
In complete seriousness, if my parents had tagged me in this way, I'd be very upset with them. I could forgive ignorance on their part (them being fed the line that this is a good thing, and that there are no drawbacks). I could *not* forgive them if they did this with full knowledge (not that I'd disown them or something, just that there would always be this one issue that, regardless of how good our relationship is, I could not forgive).
Now, in Japan the culture is quite different. This doesn't strike me as being too terribly unacceptable there.
Remember kids, RFID is a four letter word!
Learn something new.
The article states that "school authorities in the Japanese city of Osaka have decided the benefits outweigh the disadvantages and will now be chipping children in one primary school." The submitter states "Japanese schoolchildren in the city of Osaka will be tagged with RFID tags."
Actually, the the Kinki Bureau of Telecommunications of the Ministry of Public Management, Home Affairs, Posts and Telecommunications (an organization you probably would not refer to as "school authorities," which happens to be located in the city of Osaka, Osaka prefecture) will be testing RFID tags with the cooperation of an elementary school in the city of Tabe, Wakayama prefecture.
You can read an accurate article here.
One of the (many) unintended consequences of this will be that parents and authorities will have a higher perceived confidence level but a lower real confidence level.
Current situation: Parent sends child to school. Did they get there? Probably, based on past behavior and other factors, but not necessarily definitely. Therefore, the parents continue to assert controls and recieve feedback (aka nagging and snooping) over time to increase the liklihood of the child going to school and behaving safely.
Proposed situation: Parent sends child to school. Did they get there? Definitely, based on the feedback from the sensors at the school. Parents don't need to check and reinforce behavior (spy and nag), because they can be sure that their little darling is safe at school. Except that only the tag is at school, in their little darling's friend's bag. Little darling is skipping school and is currenly at a bukkake shoot earning some extra coin.
I'll stick with the nagging and snooping.
"As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
seriously, this is scary.
I, for one, welcome our new RFID masters.
Real programmers use "copy con program.exe"
NOBODY expects the Third Man Argument.
Shop as usual. And avoid panic buying.
The current goal is one reduction of school bueracracy and truency rather than stopping crime and abduction. Why not do this more simply with Bluetooth enabled key cards instead? Maybe the goal of taking this the more invasive aims like those is on the horizon, but must be introduced one step to hell at a time.
Get the RFID tags implanted to help locate children in earthquakes and major disasters. Get long lasting bio-driven versions that will survive between school sessions and vacations to protect against abductors. Widely deploy readers to track school kids who might choose to vandalize a school. Will the tags be removed at the end of one's education? No, they're harmless. Within a few generations you have a populace with high percentages of people already RFID tagged and having no problems. Require it of everyone.
If the current uses are "just" to reduce bueracracy, I'd definitely side with technologies that would not be easily expandable to a more trecherous slope.
As an English teacher at a Japanese elementary school, I'd like to explain a few things about how the commuting works for students here.
. pl5 ?ek20040520ag.htm
Almost no kids in Japanese public schools are driven to school by their parents. It is not against the rules, but is generally discouraged. Public schools generally do not have buses, though some students will take a bus if their parents can afford it and they live far from school. Middle and high school students might bike or take a train, but those are often off-limits for elementary students, who must either walk or come by bus (Kids generally go to the local elementary/middle school, but there are exams for high school, which might require a long trip every day).
In my small rural town (pop. 7000), and in many other places, elementary and middle school students who are walking/biking must follow certain routes to and from school. Teachers are posted at locations along the route to check up on the students. But, they can't be everywhere. The middle school in my town has recently had problems with middle-aged men approaching female students. Students are out in the open for a much longer period of time than in the US and are thus bigger targets.
That said, I don't want to see my students given RFID tags. However, I wouldn't be surprised if it became very popular here. Elementary and middle school students already have tags with their full name and the school's name on it which must be worn at all times. Also, nearly all middle and high schools have uniforms. With all this required attire, it's hard for students to go someplace after school that they're not supposed to be, and this is part of the point. People will even sometimes complain to a school if they see its students doing something they don't approve of. There is already a lot of monitoring in place here, and I don't see this as being a big shift.
Related article -
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/getarticle
PS - It's not that important, but the CNET article is poorly written and unclear. Osaka city and Wakayama prefecture are completely seperate places, but someone who knows very little about Japan might think that Osaka city is the small "town" in Wakayama where the RFID tags are being tested. Anyone have a better article?
If this could prevent child-napping, yes I'd put one on my kids.
But it wouldn't. An RFID detector would be easy enough to buy or manufacture from parts you could get at Radioshack. If the tag is injected under the skin you'd use the detector to locate it, then cut it out.
Remember, it's not as if the kidnapper is at all concerned with the welfare of the child. Cutting out a small hunk of flesh isn't going to bother them. And a canny kidnapper would do something interesting with that hunk of flesh - like tape it to the underside of someone else's car so the police would waste time trying to locate and storm(trooper) the house of some innocent.
There is no upside to tagging kids in the crime prevention department. The only use that such a system has is to track the child itself, for the benefit of the parents (in terms of control) or the government (also in terms of control).
Max
My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
He knows what he's talking about, unlike most of the Insightful-modded posts so far.
Since this article is talking about elementary school students, I'm really disgusted by the number of Funny-modded jokes about tentacle rape and spooge and what not. Sickos. You know, those kinds of anime & manga are much more popular in the US than in Japan, so despite its origin, what does that say about who are really the pervs?
But, for what its worth, despite Japan's reputation for being a safe country (which it generally is when talking about violent crime/theft/drug crimes), there is a disproportionately high rate of child abuse, kidnapping, rape, and violent attacks against young children.
I don't think RFID tags on kids is the answer, though. Its a big social problem and needs to be worked on from more than just the preventative angle.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
Japanese schoolkids have enough pressure to deal with as it is. Tagging them like animals isn't going to do them good. Just how high a youth suicide rate do they want?
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
Here is a sampling of crime that happened in one day in Japan (July 10th): Knife-wielding maniac cuts up 2nd-grade boy and 4-year-old http://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20040710-0000106 9-mai-soci
Bomb-making manual discovered from home of dentist who blew himself up
http://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20040710-0000106 8-mai-soci
Wife has affair with man, kills husband
http://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20040710-0000030 4-yom-soci
Single Mother's boyfriend punches 1-year-old, causing massive internal injuries
http://www.asahi.com/national/update/0710/011.html
School teacher pulls down 4th-grade boy's underwear and hides them
http://www.sanspo.com/sokuho/0710sokuho025.html
15-year-old dumps newborn baby in trash can, killing her
http://news13.2ch.net/test/read.cgi/newsplus/10894 30808/
4th grade schoolteacher orders students to punch pupil who didn't do homework
http://www.sankei.co.jp/news/040710/sha035.htm
24-year-old mother drowns 3-year-old in bathtub
http://news13.2ch.net/test/read.cgi/newsplus/10894 05680/
5th grader gets bookbag impaled by knife-wielding maniac
http://news16.2ch.net/test/read.cgi/dqnplus/108939 2047/
High school girl commits suicide on train tracks, exploding into strawberry jello
http://www.sankei.co.jp/news/040710/sha044.htm
The military.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
You obviously do not have children (at least, not to whom you are actually filling the role of a father), and I sincerely hope that you will straighten out your thinking before you even consider having any. Or go out and get yourself snipped this week.
If you do not involve yourself in your children's lives, specifically including knowing where they are going, with whom they are associating, and what they are doing, they will turn out exactly as you describe. And/or kidnapped and sexually assaulted, maybe even killed, by some weirdo. Or on drugs. Or in juvie, and prison after that.
Not only do children not have a right to privacy, parents have a moral obligation to make sure they know the things described above.
Hey, who better to do drugs than kids? What are you gonna fuck up at age 16 that you can't bounce back from - what, you going to get a F?
I can't do drugs any more - At my age I have shit to do. I can't go on a 2 day acid binge cos I have to move my car on street sweeping day. Drugs are for kids.
Paraphrased from a piece by the guy in my sig
I personally wouldn't tag my kids, but i'm only 20, so i'm also ready to admit that my attitude may change by the time i actually have kids
/. so you're probably a geek. if you were tagged with an RFID chip all day, particularly when you were in that inquisitive age at school, wouldn't you try your hardest to disassemble it, see how it worked, try to reprogram it? it's a child's natural instinct to push the boundaries. kids like to see what they can do. and if some smartass kid finds out a workaround, then he'll be able to act with nigh impunity.
but what i think is bad about this is that it gives parents the illusion of knowing what their kids are up to. most people are lazy. they'll reckon that the kids won't try anything if they know they're being tracked.
bulls[h|p]it.
think about this. you're reading
in my opinion this is the tool of the uninterested parent. it's the sort of thing that would be used by a parent who lets TV raise their child. if you're involved with your child, and if you're intersted, then you won't need to tag your child.
if you're not and you feel the need to tag your child, then you shouldn't be allowed, thus providing you with more incentive to get involved
a child who's been over parented is still better than a child who's been under parented
and if you see me strut, remind me of what left this outlaw torn...
Even worse, once "everyone" has it, people will start linking things to it (like they currently do with social security numbers). Imagine not being able to order food at a restaurant because you're not tagged, and hence are not "verifiable", or being able to enter a movie theatre or concert, because you could "be one of those subversives."
Of course, the criminals will have a field day - once they can wand you to verify your ID, people might just stop looking at photo IDs (which are easy enough to fake anyways), making false transmitters a great way of ripping people off (cloning car key transmitters, or cellphones, anyone?)
The key argument, of course, will be - "Well, if you have nothing to hide, then this shouldn't be a problem, right?" That one and the other argument, "Only criminals fear more government. We citizens have nothing to be afraid of..."
I read some of the "dehumanizing" articles with a bit of a smile. If any of you are working for a large corporation you are already tagged. Every large company I worked for (Tandy, CSC, Lockheed, Sprint, Sabre) required all employees to carry a RFID badge and you could not get into the work area unless you had your badge. In three of the places (Tandy, Lockheed, Sabre) you could not get OUT unless you had your badge.
Badge readers were strategically placed at the entrances/exits of all buildings/floors so movement could be restricted to designated areas.
Doing the same in the schools would provide security because you would know that the only people on the school grounds are people who are suppose to be there. If a child does not show up for class you know the last set of doors the child walked past and when.
As far as dehumanizing look at your friends and colleagues that have professional jobs and see if they still have their soul.
Peon 3 of 5, Assimilated 1993
just a thought, but do you have kids? have you taken this route with them?
"This is happening here because of an epidemic of kidnappings and murders in the last few years. Parents are really scared. Just this week there were two stories in the news, one a middle aged school teacher who tried to abduct two girls, and the other a 50 something policeman caught in molestation. Every week brings more stories. It has me scared too.
"On top of that, the 'youth culture' here is really out of control. Parents are just scared silly that their kids are heading into Tokyo to work the streets for quick yen. The girls selling sex, of course, and the boys doing muggings and the like.
"There are real problems and parents are desperate for any kind of solution."
What's this teaching the children? That adults are always checking up on them, that they they're always being monitors and hence can always be got out of any trouble. In short, that they don't need to take responsibility for themselves.
Mobile phones have already had some of this effect, and IDs will have more. Why bother learning how to make arrangement and stick to them? Why bother making the effort to be at the agreed place at the agreed time? After all, you can always call and explain...
Why bother to learn self-discipline, when you know it's always being enforced on you anyway?
If we raise a generation of children who know they don't need to look after themselves, we'll end up with a generation of adults who can't look after themselves.
And I find that just as scary as the civil liberties implications.
Ceterum censeo subscriptionem esse delendam.
You obviously do not have children
The battle cry of the narrow-minded parent who can't possibly understand that someone else that has children might have a different opinion on how they should be raised.
There's being involved in your child's life and there's being so oppressive they have no choice but to rebel and rebel hard. One of the worst things you can do as a parent is to make your child believe you do not trust him at all.
Let me ask you this: If you treat your child as if he's a criminal, what incentive does he have to not be a criminal? If your home is already a prison, how effective is the threat of prison going to be? And furthermore, how is this complete lack of trust preparing him for life without you?
I would suggest that if you need to track your child's every movement when they are old enough to go places by themselves then you haven't done your job as a parent. Getting children to behave properly when you are with them is trivial. Getting them to behave properly when you aren't with them is what parenting is all about.
People's desire to believe they are right is much stronger than their desire to be right.
Unicef, UN, and Amnisty International can all bite me with their anti-American spew.
That's funny, because there was nothing anti-american in my post. I simply named the 2 countries on earth who refused to ratify the declaration on the rights of children.
so, you're saying that kids of Iran, Iraq (two years ago), Afghanistan (3 years ago) Syria, and the like all have a right to privacy?
Yes, they had a right to it.
Maybe their rights were being violated...but they had rights.
Where's the UN on the Sudan? Rwanda?
When the genocides started in Rwanda in 1994, the U.N. tried to move in with a peacekeeping force, but the move was blocked by the U.S. because they didn't think the deathtoll of hundreds of thousands of africans was high enough to risk U.S. soldier casualties that might result from their participation.
Where's Unicef on female genital mutilation?
Here.
You can't take the sky from me...