Slashdot Mirror


NASA Urged to Reconsider Shuttle Mission to HST

LMCBoy writes "Space.com reports today that the National Academies of Science has released its recommendation to NASA on the future of the Hubble Space Telescope. They conclude that 'NASA should take no actions that would preclude a space shuttle servicing mission to the Hubble Space Telescope.' They also say that none of the safety requirements of the CAIB report preclude a manned servicing mission to HST." Read on for more.

"The NAS recommendation would reverse NASA's previous position that a shuttle repair mission is ruled out for safety reasons. In the wake of strong criticisms of this decision, NASA has also been considering a robotic repair mission. The robotic mission would not risk human lives, but it relies on a number of bleeding-edge technologies that would have to be deployed on a very short timescale. HST's remaining gyroscopes are not expected to last beyond 2007."

199 comments

  1. I hope they go ahead with this mission by britneys+9th+husband · · Score: 5, Insightful

    What a shame it would be to spend all that money putting Hubble up there and then not servicing it because of budget cuts. That would be like spending $20,000 on a new car and then deciding a few years later that you can't afford to take it in for an oil change. It's already up there, they might as well service it.

    --
    Hear recorded Slashdot headlines on your phone! New service beta testing. Just call (248) 434-5508
    1. Re:I hope they go ahead with this mission by dcw3 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      What a shame it would be to spend all that money putting Hubble up there and then not servicing it because of budget cuts. That would be like spending $20,000 on a new car and then deciding a few years later that you can't afford to take it in for an oil change. It's already up there, they might as well service it.

      The Hubble was built in 1985. So, your analogy is a bit off base. It would be more like repairing that old 128k MacIntosh you bought back then. There's a time to repair, and there's a time to move on to newer technology. Otherwise, you're only hanging on for sentimental reasons, not for science.

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    2. Re:I hope they go ahead with this mission by adeyadey · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I believe that Hubble should probably be serviced, but the equation is pretty marginal, I think. If it wasnt for the fact that we (think we) have to go back up and fit retros anyway, (and that the upgrade CCDs etc have been built) I would be for just running it until it stopped working & putting the money into new scopes, maybe a 2nd UV/Visable capable one to join the JWT.

      Hubble is in the wrong place - it is inoperable for half the time, since the earth blocks its view as it orbits - much better to place it the Lagrange point like the JWT. Modern space scopes can have much bigger lightweight segmented mirrors - again like JWT. Hubble is also just plain old - all the bits are starting to wear out, take micrometeor hits, and so on. Manned repairs also make no sense whatsoever, at the current (stupid) shuttle mission costs.

      Hubble has of course been great sucess in many ways, but technology has moved on since the late 70's when it was concieved.

      Personally I wonder if it is even worth spending $300m+ just for a "safe deorbit" - its the old argument - ie: that money spent AIDS drugs for Africa would save many more lifes than are threatened by Hubble reentry..

      --
      "You lied to me! There is a Swansea!"
    3. Re:I hope they go ahead with this mission by rtz · · Score: 3, Insightful


      The Hubble was built in 1985. So, your analogy is a bit off base. It would be more like repairing that old 128k MacIntosh you bought back then. There's a time to repair, and there's a time to move on to newer technology.

      If all you had was that 128k Macintosh, and you knew you wouldn't be able to get a replacement for another decade (at best), then it would make very good sense to repair it.

    4. Re:I hope they go ahead with this mission by amightywind · · Score: 4, Informative

      What a shame it would be to spend all that money putting Hubble up there and then not servicing it because of budget cuts. That would be like spending $20,000 on a new car and then deciding a few years later that you can't afford to take it in for an oil change. It's already up there, they might as well service it.

      Hubble is in the 14th year of a 10 year mission. The decision to service hubble is no different than deciding to put a new engine in an old car with 200,000 miles, with the added twist that there is a 1 in 50 chance that a 7 person crew would die doing it. The reason NASA O'Keefe has decided not to service Hubble with the shuttle is that it is judged to be unsafe given the Columbia review board's recommendations. Namely, the shuttle should have access to the safe haven of the ISS if it is to keep flying. This story adds nothing new to the debate. Hubble's replacement is on the way. Perhaps its leisurely schedule of the James Webb Telescope can be accelerated.

      --
      an ill wind that blows no good
    5. Re:I hope they go ahead with this mission by pohl · · Score: 5, Insightful
      It would be more like repairing that old 128k MacIntosh you bought back then.

      Yeah, it would be exactly like that if and only if computational power had not increased exponentially in the interim and only one such orbital Macintosh existed.

      --

      The "cue the foo posts in 3, 2, 1..." posts will commence with no subsequent foo posts in 3, 2, 1...

    6. Re:I hope they go ahead with this mission by Cujo · · Score: 2, Informative

      For that sort of observatory, schedule is not a top priority. Nor was it for Hubble. Performance is so critical (and so difficult), that it's ready when it's ready - you just hope you can keep a lid on costs.

      --

      Helium balloons want to be free.

    7. Re:I hope they go ahead with this mission by J05H · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yes, but the Hubble upgrades are like taking that 128k Macintosh and putting in a water-cooled dual G5 and a new LCD display. The newer cameras on Hubble, the WFPC3 and the NICMOS (i think), have proven worlds better than their predecessor instruments, literally. Hubble wasn't meant to be upgraded like that, but the engineers have figured out how to do it anyway. Think of the Hubble as a platform, not a single instrument.

      Ideally, I would like to see several Hubble clones in solar orbit - capable of acting individually or as a very-long baseline interferometer.

      Josh

      --
      gigantino.tv - Heavy but weighs nothing.
    8. Re:I hope they go ahead with this mission by MindStalker · · Score: 1

      Yea, but what if it lands on the then during contruction freedom tower. Would we have to go after our terroist scientist for trying to kill us all. But seriously the chance of it landing on a populated area is definatly there. Though as its would more likly crumble into small bits considerig its orbit and that its not a very dense object. We really have little to worry about.

    9. Re:I hope they go ahead with this mission by Idarubicin · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Hubble is in the wrong place - it is inoperable for half the time, since the earth blocks its view as it orbits...

      Not necessarily true. Hubble is in orbit at a fairly shallow inclination (28 degrees). Picture the Solar System--the Sun and Earth-Moon system are all in the same 'horizontal' plane; Hubble's orbit is slanted about thirty degrees from that, but still pretty close. Pointing 'up' or 'down' out of that plane, neither Sun, Moon, nor Earth ever enters its field of view.

      --
      ~Idarubicin
    10. Re:I hope they go ahead with this mission by bruce_garrett · · Score: 2, Informative

      Hubble is in the wrong place - it is inoperable for half the time, since the earth blocks its view as it orbits...

      Huh? There is an hourglass shaped segment of the universe that Hubble can observe all the time, and careful scheduling can take care of a portion of the rest (it's that dance between the plane of hubble's orbit around the earth, and the plane of earth's orbit around the sun). This is not just a problem with Hubble, but with any space based telescope (until we can manage to put something into interstellar space anyway...). Even in a Lagrange point there will be times when some parts of the universe just won't be observable, when the sun, moon, or earth are in the way.

      There is scheduling software that, factors all the orbital mechanics, and insures Hubble's time is as well used as it can possibly be. Not a moment of its time is wasted if it can be humanly avoided. Not only is its time expensive, it is intensely sought after by astronomers.

    11. Re:I hope they go ahead with this mission by Abcd1234 · · Score: 1

      ... capable of acting individually or as a very-long baseline interferometer.

      Not possible. Given that you have to align the incoming light paths to a single wavelength accuracy, space-based interferometry at anything but radio frequencies is simply not possible. Heck, interferometry using ground-based scopes is bloody hard, and that's with a physically connected light path!

    12. Re:I hope they go ahead with this mission by aggiefalcon01 · · Score: 1

      Personally I wonder if it is even worth spending $300m+ just for a "safe deorbit" - its the old argument - ie: that money spent AIDS drugs for Africa would save many more lifes than are threatened by Hubble reentry..

      Yeah. Think of all the African dictators/generals that don't have swimming pools in all their palaces yet. We'd be a lot better off sending this money over there to "help with AIDS" ...

      --
      Global warming is neither science, nor politics. It is a religion.
    13. Re:I hope they go ahead with this mission by adeyadey · · Score: 1

      Its an old-fashioned cost/risk equation.

      There are plenty of ways of spending $300m+ and saving a lot more lifes than those threatened by Hubble reentry - which has something like a 1 in 800 chance of hitting somebody, if I remember right - anyone confirm the exact figure? Thus:

      $300m+ saves 1/800 th of a life.

      Even if you spent that on bottom end US health or social care, you will probably save/improve 100's or 1000's of lifes.

      It is true there are nasty regimes in Africa - but there are also some democracies and agencies who would make good use of a "gift" of $300m worth of AIDS drugs. Then again, the drug companies should not be so greedy and charge so much - but thats another story..

      Even if the $300m+ is spent on a mission to deorbit, it could fail for some reason anyway - another risk% to factor into the equation.

      Anyway it wont happen like that, because NASA politically cannot afford to be seen taking even small risks with public safety - whatever the actual cold logic of the situation really is..

      --
      "You lied to me! There is a Swansea!"
    14. Re:I hope they go ahead with this mission by adeyadey · · Score: 1

      From what I have read, I understood that Hubble often has to waste a proportion of its observation time when the Earth is in the way. Hubble is in LEO, and Earth represents a huge propotion of the viewable hemisphere. At Lagrange, the % of sky taken by the moon/Earth is far less - even if they get in the way, they are not in the way for so long. Also much less background radiation generally - a much better place to place ultra-sensitive instruments.

      Anyway, Hubble cannot re-target that quickly - it takes time to fine tune & home in on a target. If it is a long observation, more than can be done in half an orbit, and Earth gets in the way, sometimes Hubble is not re-targeted onto a new objective, but left as-is until the target comes around in the next orbit.

      Can anyone confirm this?

      --
      "You lied to me! There is a Swansea!"
    15. Re:I hope they go ahead with this mission by J05H · · Score: 1

      Not possible. Given that you have to align the incoming light paths to a single wavelength accuracy, space-based interferometry at anything but radio frequencies is simply not possible. Heck, interferometry using ground-based scopes is bloody hard, and that's with a physically connected light path!

      The Terrestrial planet Finder telescope has a good chance of being several free-flying spacecraft that would do optical interferometry. http://www.terrestrial-planet-finder.com/ has a little bit of info. Also, I've read about astronomers doing non-realtime interferometry from recorded spectra. Not sure how they pull it off, though. Most interferometry involves physically combing the signals, somehow they figured out an image-processing method instead. *shrug* I'd still like to see a stripped-down/cheaper/better set of Hubble clones in solar orbit.

      Josh

      --
      gigantino.tv - Heavy but weighs nothing.
  2. Shame by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    Would be a shame to lose Hubble. Hasn't it discovered hundreds of new plants? That's too invaluable to just let die out in space. I'm all for a robotic mission :)

    1. Re:Shame by kfg · · Score: 5, Funny

      Hasn't it discovered hundreds of new plants?

      No.

      KFG

    2. Re:Shame by brianvan · · Score: 5, Funny

      Yes, me too. I wholeheartedly support the future scientific discovery of cosmic shrubbery. /whoops

    3. Re:Shame by Moridineas · · Score: 2, Funny

      Well.. maybe a few new vegetables down here!

    4. Re:Shame by LMCBoy · · Score: 2, Informative

      ahem. Well, one hundred anyway. In one fell swoop.

      --
      Liberal (adj.): Free from bigotry; open to progress; tolerant of others.
    5. Re:Shame by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      what are you talking about?

    6. Re:Shame by LMCBoy · · Score: 1

      whoops, sorry about missing the typo joke...

      --
      Liberal (adj.): Free from bigotry; open to progress; tolerant of others.
    7. Re:Shame by kfg · · Score: 1

      I'm not inclined to be a spelling Nazi, let alone a typo Nazi. I'd have to waste too much time throwing bricks at the rubber wall. However, when such results in potential humor I have a hard time resisting the striaght line, even when the typo is my own.

      Since I'm of the habit of fashioning punch lines in nonobvious ways the odd person who misses the joke on first parsing may may be excused, although this does not prevent me from being puzzled now and again when vast hordes come out of the woodwork to brand me an idiot for something I thought an obvious bit of irony, e.g. my "don't fill space with nuclear radiation" post.

      KFG

    8. Re:Shame by jannesha · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The hubble space telescope uses a CCD equivalent to a less-than-consumer-level digi-cam.

      This site says: "The Hubble Space Telescope's Wide Field and Planetary Camera 2 has four CCDs, each containing 640,000 pixels." so that's a 2.5 mega-pixel camera.

      Let's all keep this in mind....

    9. Re:Shame by hcdejong · · Score: 4, Informative

      I suspect Hubble's CCD's can't really be compared to the ones in a digital camera.
      From that same page: "They can see objects that are 1,000 million times fainter than the naked eye can see. "
      For one thing, Hubble's cameras are cooled (can't find their temperature, but IIRC it's far below zero) to reduce noise. Also, the CCD design is bound to be different. This gives an idea of what's involved.

    10. Re:Shame by turgid · · Score: 1

      So, the President really is from outer space!

    11. Re:Shame by sotonboy · · Score: 1

      The area of the ccd is largely irrelevant. I suspect that the optics on Hubble are many orders of magnitude better than the consumer digicam.

    12. Re:Shame by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      The megapixel rating on a digicam is a meaningless number to trick stupid consumers like you. My 3 year old very expensive 2 MP camera takes pictures that are much crisper, brighter and with better color fidelity than a new 6 MP POS that costs 1/3rd the price it was. 6 MP is useless when the 50 cent optics blurs and distorts the picture the cheap CCD can't distinguish colours properly.

    13. Re:Shame by ExportGuru · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Shame isn't the half of it. HST was designed to be lofted to orbit, lifted when its orbit has decayed, and brought home when its mission is over by the Shuttle. It was designed to be serviced, upgraded, and maintained by astronauts. It was assumed that the Shuttle would bring the astronaut/wrench-benders to the job site with their tools and parts.

      OK, I'll buy the idea that robots could bring the HST to a safe re-entry and destruction. I won't buy the idea that what we have available today and what we can get completed, checked out, and space-rated by December 2007 can do the gyro, battery, and two telescope change-outs. Sorry, geeks, it isn't going to happen any more than nine women are going to make one baby in one month. OTOH, if a robot could crash HST by slowing it down along its present track, couldn't one push it the other way and raise its orbit? Where does this leave us?

      How to get astronauts to Low Earth Orbit (LOE) at about a 23 degree inclination...can't do it with a Soyuz-TMA on a Soyuz-U or -M launch vehicle ("Carrier rocket" if you're Russian) out of Baikonur because the lattitude of the launch site makes their Equator-crossing-angle too steep (in case you wondered why the International Space Station has such a high inclination, now you know.) Will they be able to launch a manned mission out of Kourou by December 2007? Unlikely. Could the do it out of Canaveral by then? Probably. There's infrastructure here that doesn't exist in French Guyana and there's even an operating spaceport here with launch pads to spare. Facilities would have to be built, but have you noticed what they are? Butler buildings and steel trestles, railroad lines, and lots of space. Not much of a problem at the Canaveral Spaceport. NASA already owns all of the stuff they were going to put into the HST and has the training facilities already built for the mission.

      Hm. U.S. astronauts aboard a Soyuz-TMA. Radical idea or common practice today? You know the answer to that.

      OK, let's say we do it. We get away from the present program, which looks to me like a cross between the Credit Mobiliere and the Revenge of the Nerds, and get a commercial contract - just like you buy IT hardware, software, and services - and let U.S. and Russian companies do this job with minimal NASA and other Government involvement: no success, no pay. Now, does that sound like what Congress is telling NASA to start doing anyway? OK, why not start here?

      What do the Russians say about this? It amounts to: "Sure, let's do it. Cash up front."

    14. Re:Shame by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This site says: "The Hubble Space Telescope's Wide Field and Planetary Camera 2 has four CCDs, each containing 640,000 pixels." so that's a 2.5 mega-pixel camera.

      Uh, did you miss the part at the top of the page of the link you provided? The part about the Advanced Camera For Surveys?!?

      An optical camera aboard the Hubble Space Telescope that covers twice the area, has twice the sharpness, and is up to ten times more efficient than the telescope's Wide Field and Planetary Camera 2. The camera's wavelength range spans from ultraviolet to near-infrared light.

      Yeah, consumer digital camera equivalent. Sheesh ...

    15. Re:Shame by eriko · · Score: 2, Informative

      And the WFPC2 was installed in 1993, and was built about 1991. How many kilopixles did your digital camera have back then.

      The Advanced Camera for Surveys, built between 1996 and 1999, was installed in 2000. It has a 4096x4096 pixel detector.

      Where was your 16 megapixel camera in 1999?

      The replacement for the WFPC2, the Wide Field Camera 3 (WFC), will also have a 4096x4096 detector, along with a 10Mpix IR detector. Both of these sensors are of much higher quality than a consumer CCD.

      --
      Ceci n'est pas une sig.
    16. Re:Shame by faxafloi · · Score: 1
      WFPC2 is hardly used anymore except for parallels, and is supposed to be replaced.
      Meanwhile, here's what the ACS has for detectors:
      • The WFC detector, called ACS/WFC, employs a mosaic of two 2048 × 4096 Scientific Imaging Technologies (SITe) CCDs, with ~0.05 arcsecond pixels, covering a nominal 202 × 202 arcsecond field of view (FOV), and a spectral response from~3700 to 11,000 Å.
      • The HRC detector, called ACS/HRC, is a 1024 × 1024 SITe CCD, with ~0.028 × 0.025 arcsecond pixels, covering a nominal 29 × 26 arcsecond field of view, and spectral response from ~2000 to 11,000 Å.
      • The SBC detector, called the ACS/SBC, is a solar-blind CsI Multi-Anode Microchannel Array (MAMA), with 1024 × 1024 ~0.034 × 0.030 arcsecond pixels, and a nominal 35 × 31 arcsecond FOV, with far-UV spectral response from 1150 to 1700Å.
      Additionally, these images are usually drizzled and mosaicked to create larger images. The GOODS sections, for example, are each 8192x8192, and the overall size of the field would have been 32768x40960, but then you would need a 64-bit machine to work with it (which is why it was broken into tiles).

      Oh, and keep *this* in mind: These detectors are space rated. A consumer-grade digi-cam is not.
      --
      Exit, pursued by a bear.
    17. Re:Shame by CaptainAvatar · · Score: 1

      I'm glad somebody has a clue here ... yes, you are quite right. Astronomers were pushing the state of the art in CCD technology more than a decade before consumer-level digital cameras were even a gleam in an engineer's eye. Hell, as a teenaged astronomy geek back in the '80s I knew what a CCD was, well before every man and his dog owned one of their own.

      --
      The real Captain Avatar is a fictional character, so I suppose he doesn't mind if I impersonate him.
  3. Show me the money... by LostCluster · · Score: 5, Informative

    Safety concerns was the offical reason why they didn't want to service the Hubble, but this report most clearly is saying that's bunk.

    But what about the finacial concerns? I don't think NASA has the funding to allocate to a Hubble Repair mission... could the safety claims just have been a smokescreen to cover when the real reason was because they can't get the funding to do this?

    1. Re:Show me the money... by Kris_J · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I don't think NASA has the public support not to. If you watch the agency let Hubble die are you more or less likely to request that your elected representatives find more funding for NASA?

    2. Re:Show me the money... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Safety concerns was the offical reason why they didn't want to service the Hubble, but this report most clearly is saying that's bunk.

      Yes, but the authors of this report have got fuck all to do with the way that NASA evaluates safety.

      If one or more of NASA's safety panels decides a mission should not take place for safety reasons, then that should be taken seriously. Not overruled by a bunch of scientists.

      Of course they are well-meaning, but they are not engineers, they are not safety experts, and, frankly, those scientists who have a vested interest in this mission (i.e., some of the astronomers) should remove themselves from this kind of panel.

    3. Re:Show me the money... by Joceyln+Parfitt · · Score: 1

      The exact same question is asked in the article and if you bothered to read it you'd know the answer too.

    4. Re:Show me the money... by LostCluster · · Score: 3, Insightful

      In converse, it's the elected representatives who control NASA's funding to begin with... NASA can't fund a mission if they don't include enough money to do it in the budget.

      The current political pressure on NASA is to go to the moon and Mars. If NASA has to spend all of its money on that, there's nothing left for Hubble.

    5. Re:Show me the money... by Yenchatech · · Score: 2, Interesting

      While it's good to know that NASA keeps the astronauts first and all else second, I think most would agree that Hubble needs this repair mission, and that those repairs can only be reliably carried out through the skilled men and women of the astronaut core. While I'm all for robots doing some of the space grunt-work, the HST is a very delicate piece of technology, one that should not be risked to further damage through unproven repair techniques.

      As to funding, yes NASA is strapped for cash, but attempting to develop and deploy an (at least) semi-automated robotic repair device in the course or 3 1/2 years seems like it would cost vastly more than any manned space shuttle repair flight.

    6. Re:Show me the money... by LMCBoy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But what about the finacial concerns? I don't think NASA has the funding to allocate to a Hubble Repair mission...

      First of all, the instruments which were slated to go up have already been built, so you're looking at a substantial loss of investment if a servicing mission doesn't go.

      I heard an estimate of 1 billion USD today for the robotic mission. A manned shuttle mission would likely be comparable in price. However, even if they don't send a repair mission, a robotic mission to HST will still need to be sent, in order to attach rockets which can safely splash it down into the ocean. Otherwise, there's no way to control where it will come down. The cost of this robotic-splashdown mission is half the cost of the full robotic-servicing mission (500 million USD).

      It would be a shame to scrap HST because we didn't want to spend an extra $500 million to save it. That's almost exactly the average price of a single space shuttle mission. NASA's annual budget is $15 billion. It's not a lot of money, considering what we're getting for it.

      --
      Liberal (adj.): Free from bigotry; open to progress; tolerant of others.
    7. Re:Show me the money... by Almost-Retired · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I've already voiced my opinion to my representatives, in unambiguous terms. IMO its criminal to allow a national treasure like that to die for lack of a few million to service it.

      They've done it twice before, and I don't see any reason they couldn't do it again as long as the shuttle they use is equipt the same as the one they used twice before. That might take some extra funds doing the retrofit.

      Tell ya how to take a vote folks, have the irs add a 50 dollar checkoff line to the 1040, where 50 bucks of your refund would go instead to nasa.

      I'd bet nasa would hear a get off your butts and doit message loud and clear cause I know I'd sure do the checkmark.

      I use 2 of its deep field images, totalling about 70 megs, as backgrounds for 2 of my 8 screens. Everytime I switch to one of those screens I'm reminded of just how usefull that the hubble has been even if it was in need of a set of glasses to clear it up. The last one, showing stuff as far out as 13 billion light years, is a truely impressive image since we are seeing the universe as it was when it was less than a billion years old when that light was sent on its way here.

      Properly maintained, that scope can and will be making new discoveries, adding to our knowledge of the universe and physics in general, stuff that cannot be done thru the haze of our atmosphere here on the ground, a hundred years from now.

      I'd like to see them add an RPG powered ion engine to it, not a very big one of course, just enough to give it a few ounces of push so that its orbit could be maintained over an extended period as one of the things the shuttle must do each time its there is to give it a push to correct for the decaying orbit. That pushing we are told, over-extends the shuttles available fuel, possibly endangering the ability to steer at landing time. The shuttle that goes there must have the robot arm, and it must be stripped a bit in order to lighten it to even reach the hubbles altitude which is about 50 miles above the design envelope of the shuttle.

      But the point is, it CAN be done. Dangerous, maybe. But I don't recall that any of the crews who have been there regretted doing it.

      Cheers, Gene

    8. Re:Show me the money... by Buran · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The astronauts are actually quite in favor of doing the mission. They know what they signed up for and they don't like bureaucrats telling them that oh no, we suddenly aren't going to let you do your jobs. Guess what... spaceflight is risky.

      Stupid bureaucrats.

    9. Re:Show me the money... by wass · · Score: 3, Informative
      I don't think NASA has the funding to allocate to a Hubble Repair mission

      Not really. NASA does have the money (assuming it's funding isn't further cut). But NASA administrator O'Keefe re-arranged the NASA priorities after Bush's claim for a Mars mission. The safety issue further added into this, but wasn't entirely a smokescreen.

      This is troubling because Bush appointed O'Keefe directly, and O'Keefe reports (or is supposed to, at least) back to Bush. More annoyingly is that O'Keefe single-handedly made the decision to cut the funding for Hubble Servicing Mission 4. He probably had advice from some panel or other, but in his email he stated the decision to cut or not to cut would be his alone.

      Luckily enough scientists and politicians acted out to fight O'Keefe's initial decision. Personally, I don't know if he decided to cut it just because of the Mars announcement or not, I think he just doesn't want any more astronaut deaths or serious accidents to occur under his watch. However, I think it's a shame to let NASA's scientific progress stagnate strictly due to safety issues.

      On the side note, the whole Mars thing seems bunk, when was the last time anybody even heard any other information about it? Maybe there'll be some more talk about Mars (talk is cheap) until November elections.

      --

      make world, not war

    10. Re:Show me the money... by mbrother · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If NASA wanted to keep their astronauts perfectly safe, they would ground them all permanently. There is risk in the space game, and you deal with it, or don't. (One of my old professors from Rice, Jeffrey Wisoff, is an astronaut know and has previously service Hubble -- go Jeff!)

      --
      Professor of Astronomy, Author of Spider Star & Star Dragon (Tor)
    11. Re:Show me the money... by Frit+Mock · · Score: 2, Interesting


      What about asking other nations or private organisations for money to service it?

      What about selling Hubble?

      What about giving it as a gift to anyone who wants it?

    12. Re:Show me the money... by node+3 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It would be a shame to scrap HST because we didn't want to spend an extra $500 million to save it.

      It's even more the shame for all the money saved during the last year+ of non-flight. That $500 million isn't money that's unavailable, but it is money that would go to a purely intellectual goal. The current ruling ideology does not value social/intellectual concerns.

    13. Re:Show me the money... by kyknos.org · · Score: 2, Informative

      Hubble is not only NASA project. It is ESA/NASA cooperation project.

      --

      SHE does throw dice.
    14. Re:Show me the money... by yiantsbro · · Score: 3, Funny

      Hmmmm...an $800 million service mission so you can have pretty background images for your desktop. You sound like one of my users ;)

    15. Re:Show me the money... by sotonboy · · Score: 1

      I think -1 flamebait is a little unfair for this. The language was offensive but the guy is basically correct, the poster was just paraphrasing the article, and gets modded +5 informative. It really makes you wonder if the mods read the article.

    16. Re:Show me the money... by xSauronx · · Score: 1

      Be nice if space exploration and discovery could get money as easily as say....a war, eh? Think of what NASA could do with a small fragment of the billions a month we need to sustain the current war effort.

      --
      By and large, language is a tool for concealing the truth. -- George Carlin
    17. Re:Show me the money... by nametaken · · Score: 1

      Or maybe the missing $500 million is going to
      something else? I suppose the question is, "what?"

      Oh, and about the money already spent on equipment
      for addon... that's a sunk cost. It really doesn't
      matter from an economic point of view. Right now
      it would be an issue of "what's the next best
      alternative for that money?" It best be something
      important.

      None of this is to say I don't think it should be saved,
      just that there's more (and less) to the situation
      than meets the eye.

    18. Re:Show me the money... by vsprintf · · Score: 1

      The current political pressure on NASA is to go to the moon and Mars. If NASA has to spend all of its money on that, there's nothing left for Hubble.

      It's a good idea for NASA to drag its heels right now. If the administration changes in November, there may be a new, er, vision, and commitments made now may become wasted effort and money.

    19. Re:Show me the money... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hmmmm, a man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. You sound like a Republican.

    20. Re:Show me the money... by PriceIke · · Score: 0

      Yeah, that'd be a good use of our money. I'd be proud to be part of the most astronomically knowledgable culture ever conquered.

      --
      It's not a lie. It's the truth with lossy compression.
    21. Re:Show me the money... by Keebler71 · · Score: 1
      I am sure everyone would agree that spaceflight is risky and that there is a small but finite chance of another disaster. I am sure most astronauts would be willing to accept this personal risk for the mission. But what about the programatic risk? Do you realize that another NASA disaster, particularly on a mission which deliberately goes against the Challanger's investigation report, would result in the end of manned space-flight for NASA. No more space station. No going back to the Moon. No mission to Mars. That is programatic risk, and it doesn't matter how many individuals would risk their careers, reputations, and lives.

      Given that possible outcome, I do not think it is wise to send a twice-demonstrated, flawed vehicle to service an out-dated, about-to-be-replaced, telescope that has already exceeded its mission life by 40%. The stars and mysteries will still be there in 5-10 years when the next generation space telescope is fielded. Given how long humanity has waited for the technology to accomplish such feats, I think we can be inconvienienced by a few more years.

      --
      "It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance." - Thomas Sowell
    22. Re:Show me the money... by shawnce · · Score: 1

      On the side note, the whole Mars thing seems bunk, when was the last time anybody even heard any other information about it? Maybe there'll be some more talk about Mars (talk is cheap) until November elections.

      Why not read the report that was recently released (the report was the first step in the planning/feasibility validation of the directed goal)...

      moon to mars

    23. Re:Show me the money... by yiantsbro · · Score: 1

      Hmmmm, an Anonymous Coward that failed to notice the pricing information was quoted for us in the second post to this article. You sound like a Democrat.

    24. Re:Show me the money... by jismay · · Score: 1

      twice-demonstrated, flawed vehicle
      Try to get your facts straight. The Challenger explosion was caused by faulty o-rings combined with a launch in conditions the Shuttle engineers told NASA were completely unsafe to launch the Shuttle in . It was a known fact that there were issues with the o-rings at low temperatures. It was a known fact that insulation foam from the main tank had the possibility of damaging the orbiter, that was part of the reason they used to paint the tanks (to reduce the chance of foam breaking away). Nobody knew that the potential damage could be as bad as it turned out to be, but they certainly should have known that the possibility existed.
      As for a programmatic risk, that is a spurious argument. Any further loss of life by NASA could have grave consequences, whether caused by an ISS failure, a launch vessel blowing up on the pad, a fire, or another lost orbiter.
      Right now the orbiter fleet is grounded. The oribiters may very well never be flown again if current trends continue. I find it a rather silly concept to let millions of dollars of spacecraft, and repair parts to sit around doing nothing when they can be used for their original mission by highly trained volunteers. Failing to do so because some administrator is afraid of another incident is truly silly.

      --
      Let Microsoft know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship
    25. Re:Show me the money... by Buran · · Score: 1

      No, I don't think it would. MAYBE it would mean the end of the Shuttle program, but that's been in the works for a long time, and if they will ever stop cancelling potential replacements, we might find a way to get humans into orbit without using the Shuttle or Soyuz.

      And who the hell are we to say what risks other people may and may not take with their lives? You don't have the right. Nor do I. If somebody wants to do something risky, THEY make the choice.

      And if you read the details carefully, these missions ARE NOT against the CAIB report (what does Challenger have to do with it? The O-ring problem was addressed long ago with SRB segment joint redesigns). The sole problem here is a scared bureaucrat who is too much of a wimp to listen to what literally hundreds of people are trying to tell him and being far too literal and trying to put words in the mouths of others that know far more than he does about how this system works. An accountant has no business making those assumptions.

      ALL launch systems have flaws. It's crazy to assume that they don't. The main problem with the Shuttle is that it doesn't have an escape system always available during the ascent. However, there's really no easy way around the fact that if you run into a problem during re-entry, you've got big problems. So future vehicles are going to be designed such that their heat shields aren't as vulnerable to pitting and debris strikes. The materials used on the Shuttle may well be used in the future, but in new ways that don't have the same kinds of problems we see now.

      And the Hubble is NOT out of date -- yes, if you consider the original specifications, you could say so; however, the Hubble was designed to be maintained in orbit just so that it doesn't become obsolete. It has nearly all new instruments, new solar panels, new power supplies, etc. etc. And it doesn't have to be replaced when it's done such a fantastic job -- that's the entire point.

    26. Re:Show me the money... by Almost-Retired · · Score: 1

      You sound like one of my users ;)

      I think you missed my point. That was, that even though I'm now retired and should be counting bucks, when I fill out my taxes, I would be more than happy to check off a box that said "give the first 50 bucks of any refund to NASA for hubble maintainance.

      There doesn't seem to be any method presently setup by which I could make a direct, to be used only for hubble, donation to the fund.

      Something like the Pittman-Robertson act might be setup, wherein users are charged a 10% surtax on related purchases might be a model. I would have purchased those two images, at a reasonable fee.

      Any or all of a number of ways could be found to finance the hubble, but so far no one in a position to do so has appeared to give a damn, except those posting here on /. Its a sad commentary on our times IMO.

      Cheers, Gene

    27. Re:Show me the money... by timeOday · · Score: 1
      Safety concerns was the offical reason why they didn't want to service the Hubble, but this report most clearly is saying that's bunk.

      But what about the finacial concerns?

      Safety and money are largely interchangeable. Money equals time and manpower. The more you throw at a problem, the more carefully and slowly you can move, the more redundancy you can have, etc etc.

      The question is, "can we do it safely and effectively given the resources we are willing to devote."

    28. Re:Show me the money... by asscroft · · Score: 1

      I'd agree. Sell it rather than let it crash into the pacific, or whatever they had in mind.

      --
      because I have been enjoined by this Holy Office to abandon the false opinion which maintains that the Sun is the centre
    29. Re:Show me the money... by amightywind · · Score: 1

      I've already voiced my opinion to my representatives, in unambiguous terms. IMO its criminal to allow a national treasure like that to die for lack of a few million to service it.

      Pre-Columbia most people would have agreed with you. Now, to service Hubble with the shuttle would violating the acident review board's recommendations. I for one do not want to see 7 more shuttle meat comets.

      --
      an ill wind that blows no good
    30. Re:Show me the money... by Martin+Blank · · Score: 1

      How much would it realistically cost to put the Apollo program back in place, as suggested in the Time article from about a year ago? I suspect a lot less than a shuttle replacement, and could lift a LOT more into space (the shuttle is limited to about 29 tons of payload, while the Saturn V could lift some 120 tons).

      It just doesn't look as sexy.

      --
      You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
    31. Re:Show me the money... by Buran · · Score: 1

      A lot. The blueprints were destroyed, and the infrastructure is no longer suitable for use with Apollo hardware.

      However, that doesn't mean that we couldn't design new hardware along the same lines as Apollo, using the same reasoning the original engineers did, but at the same time incorporating new ideas and advances in technology.

      The shuttle looks plenty sexy, though I guess it just depends on your preferences! I think it looks pretty cool, myself.

      The original payload capacity of the Shuttle was 65,000 pounds into low earth orbit, though that's increased over the years. Shuttle payloads aren't constrained to LEO, though -- if they have attached kick motors, they can reach higher orbits or leave Earth's gravitational field entirely.

    32. Re:Show me the money... by Aumaden · · Score: 1
      Nobody take this the wrong way, I'm all for keeping the HST up as long as possible. But...

      Have you had the experience of using a really old PC for your desktop? It would be nice to have a brand new machine, with all the bells and whistles, but the one there now works. It makes it hard to justify to the boss/spouse/etc why you should have a new machine. If you ask, you get a response roughly equivalent to "But, the one you have works." And each time it acts up, you silently hope it will finally die so you can get that new dream machine.

      Now, do you suppose there may some people in NASA and/or Congress who see the HST this way? If it fails then they can justify requesting funding for a new "dream machine." I can definitely see a Congress-critter seeing this as a chance to get a nice big aerospace contract for his corporate contributers.

  4. Funding (lack of) by tirefire · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I think the problem is that they threw all their budget away on that damnable ISS (which if it were unmanned, would cost waaaay less), leaving no funding for real projects.

    I mean, what's the point of throwing people up in space station compared to what you can get with an orbital telescope? The price of reparing this has got to be a tiny slice of what the ISS gets every year.

    1. Re:Funding (lack of) by Airw0lf · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I mean, what's the point of throwing people up in space station compared to what you can get with an orbital telescope?

      Apples and oranges, I'm afraid. It is true that people on the ISS cannot reproduce the valuable data that Hubble provides about distant stars and planets. However, the people on the ISS are capable of carrying out other forms of research that may be just as valuable. For instance, placing people on the ISS allows us to learn about the effects of living in space. This kind of experiment is essential when it comes to thinking about very long missions to Mars and other planets. Not to mention all sorts of other space-based experiments that may not be feasible without a human to monitor them.

    2. Re:Funding (lack of) by Graymalkin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      NASA's means of funding is to blame in this situation. Big science telescopes like Hubble, Chandra, and Spitzer are one-off affairs. They get built and that is that. Hubble is an odd case because it has been serviced by the STS. The ISS on the other hand has to be constructed and launched, slowly. The contractors putting together ISS components make a lot of money billing the government.

      The Shuttle's design didn't originally include solid fuel rockets. This was later made a requirement as part of a compromise aimed at lowering the Shuttle's design and flight costs. The company that designed and built the SFRs was called Morton Thiokol, now called Cordant Technologies, which was based in Utah. Coincidentally this company had strong ties to the NASA's adminsitrator James Fletcher.

      Fletcher built up political support for the Shuttle by throwing some aerospace jobs to Utah. The first US politician to fly aboard the Shuttle was none other than Senator Jake Garn of Utah in April of 1985.

      This is the same reasoning behind many of the ISS decisions. NASA can't build something like the ISS without pretty hefty funding from Congress. In order to get funding they have to promise jobs and/or money to the constituencies of the legislators they're asking for money. NASA's administration also knows that if they promise individual companies contracts they can get them to make said legislators happy by writing them nice big campaign checks. Almost all government projects are based around this favor bartering system.

      Space telescopes aren't very lucrative contracts so it is hard to sell them to aerospace companies and Congress. The umpteen billion dollar ISS on the other hand is an easy sell as long as the construction can go as slowly as possible.

      --
      I'm a loner Dottie, a Rebel.
    3. Re:Funding (lack of) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not to mention all sorts of other space-based experiments that may not be feasible without a human to monitor them
      I agree to that


      For instance, placing people on the ISS allows us to learn about the effects of living in space. This kind of experiment is essential when it comes to thinking about very long missions to Mars and other planets.

      The question is: will we ever go to mars? and to do what? If we finaly have the technolgy to get there cheap and fast enough to send people just for 'fun', won't the knowledge and technology we have developed to support this not be outdated by then?

    4. Re:Funding (lack of) by hyperlinx · · Score: 1

      This is obviously gonna be a long term problem for future repairs and such....why can't have the shuttle mission go and move the HST near the ISS...then we could have ISS-based spacewalks (when the suits work) to go repair/upgrade HST...is there something about HST's location that's particularly special? Given the choice of no HST or a repositioned one with slightly less cabability the choice is obvious.

      --
      In /.space, no one can hear you SCREAM!
    5. Re:Funding (lack of) by SB9876 · · Score: 2, Informative

      The problem, though is that there is very little research that is being done or can be done on the ISS. Currently, about 5% of the astronaut time is devoted to science. Take a look at the ISS science web page (you'll have to dig, it's buried - I think NASA is embarassed to show it) sometime, it's pathetic. One of the 'science' experiments is having the astronauts take digital camera pictures of the Earth through the windows, I kid you not.

      The NSF did a study of the ISS a few years back and concluded that the station was utterly useless for science. Most of the things NASA claimed ISS would do can be done better on the ground and the rest were impossible because of the limitations in the station design. Since then, the ISS science capability has decreased even more.

      Long duration human studies are nice but we already have lots of data from Mir for that. While newer studies are nice, it hadly seems worth the exorbitant price tag required to get that data.

  5. Why NASA bugs me by DrLudicrous · · Score: 5, Insightful
    NASA has been bugging me for years, ever since the days of Goldin and now O'Keefe. I believe that both of these head administrators have been overly prone to political pressure, and that Goldin's search for life on Mars has directed way too much money towards the endeavour of exploring Mars specifically for life, or what we think of as life. It's a modern day El Dorado as far as I am concerned for a variety of reasons, including ambient temperature, lack of magnetic field, lack of overwhelming evidence of large amounts of liquid to facilitate mixing of various organic molecules, depressed solar intensity due to distance from the sun, etc.

    And now what- we don't have the guts to fix Hubble? I think what this is really about is that we don't want to spend the money, that the head of NASA (O'Keefe is not even a scientist) is willing to bank on ground based telescopes under construction being able to fill in for what Hubble currently does (such as the almost burned observatory in Arizona). That is a dangerous, if not stupid, bet to be undertaking. Instead, we are going to throw our dollars at an improperly positioned space station that is doing trivial, not very important science and the search for life elsewhere in the solar system at a time when we are not technologically well equipped for such missions. We need to focus on near-Earth applications, going no further than the moon until we can bring down the costs and time needed to explore planets like Mars, Jupiter and Saturn for signs of life. I would rather obtain good astrophysics data than bad, inconclusive data about whether water existed in a crater on Mars many unspecified millions of years ago.

    1. Re:Why NASA bugs me by bobhagopian · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Oh, how misguided the parent is.

      First off, let me say that I'm an astrophysicist. I value "good astrophysics data" more than anyone else. I think Hubble should remain in a functional state, at least until a replacement (with detectors in more than just a couple frequency ranges) can be put into space. I also believe that going to the Moon right now is a waste of time and money.

      But, I will never say that about Mars. Three points:
      1. Whether or not you are happy with it, there is nothing wrong with doing something that gets the public excited about space exploration again. Sure, getting a man (or woman!) to walk on Mars has more engineering value than scientific value, but it will re-energize the population about the value of exploration. Can you think of a better time for astrophysical science than the 1960s?
      2. While we always prefer "good" data, we as a civilization would be selling ourselves short if we never tried to reach for the frontier. I think Kennedy said it best: "We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard..." Sure, it's hard to obtain conclusive data about the existence of life on Mars. But it needs to be done. The fact that it's hard is no reason to throw our hands up into the air. It's simply too important to be ignored.
      3. Despite occasional comments (and glimmers of hope) suggesting otherwise, the search for life on Mars is primarily focused on the existence of life in the past. Because most scientists now believe that life on Earth was carried over on meteorites from Mars, these studies are examining our very origins as a civilization. Even if life wasn't transported from Mars to Earth, discovering the abundance (or lack) of life on Mars will tell us a lot about how life develops in this and other solar systems. Now, honestly, which gets you more excited: smaller error bars on stellar luminosity data, or answering in some small way the mystery of where we came from? One of these makes astrophysicists like myself very happy, the other answers the collective questions of an entire species trying to understand who they are.

    2. Re:Why NASA bugs me by el-spectre · · Score: 4, Informative

      Whoa... since when are most scientists convinced that life likely came from Mars?

      It's possible, sure. Even proven that the planets have swapped rocks many times, but "most scientists" ?

      Personally, I'd find it quite spiffy if it turns out that life came from space originally... makes the mystery much more interesting.

      --
      "Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel." - A.B.
    3. Re:Why NASA bugs me by mbrother · · Score: 2, Insightful

      O'Keefe seems a straight up administrator/beauracrat without any vision. Goldin, who surely had flaws, was a man of great vision who saw the US and NASA making fantastic discoveries and developing new technology. I have a lot of respect for Goldin.

      --
      Professor of Astronomy, Author of Spider Star & Star Dragon (Tor)
    4. Re:Why NASA bugs me by CodeBuster · · Score: 1

      The technology and the cost benefit ratios just aren't there for a manned mission to Mars right now. If we are serious about going and are willing to be patient and work on the technological advancements that are necessary to make the mission worthwhile then I agree with you. However, a space cowboy style, flag and boots on the ground mission at this time would be prohibitively expensive and of dubious scientific value. Inspiring public interest in science and engineering is a noble goal, but one which is probably not worth 100 billion dollars of public money (and with NASA running the show it will cost at least that much). We would be much wiser to work on the technology, gather more data, and plan the mission more carefully so that our children or perhaps our grandchildren can make Mars a worthwhile endeavor. What we really need to be working on is better interplanetary propulsion systems for our spacecraft such as the ION engines currently in development at JPL.

      I want those smaller error bars!

    5. Re:Why NASA bugs me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Here is one relevant link: Life on Earth could have come from a Mars rock Also check out NASA's Astrobiology Institute. Parent may have overstated the concensus on this issue, but he/she was certainly not incorrect that such theories are believed by quite a few people.

    6. Re:Why NASA bugs me by el-spectre · · Score: 1

      Yeah, it was the overstatement that got me. It's a big jump from "could have" to "likely did".

      --
      "Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel." - A.B.
    7. Re:Why NASA bugs me by adeyadey · · Score: 1

      I would agree that Mars is more interesting than the moon in many ways, but I still think that we should go to the moon first.

      If there is a major accident, an astronaut can get back to a tried-and-tested apollo style lunar capsule, launch pretty much immediately and get back home in a few days.

      On mars, you only have fast(ish) routes back to earth every 18 months (assuming something close to current rocket tech) with a 6 month transit time. A moon base will also give NASA time to invent & test new vehicles for landing men on, surviving on, then returning from another world with reasonable safety - remember they have not built such vehicles for over 30 years.

      Zubrins plan for Mars is tempting, but NASAs manned program is really shaky at the moment post columbia - if they tried that direct-to-mars route & had a major catastrophe, which would be very possible given all the unknowns, they would be in political hot water. An easier & sucsessful moon mission would give them the political confidence to carry on to mars, and develop a range of useful technologies in the meantime.

      I personally think that the X-prize is an interesting route - when you think about it it was *enthusiasts* that got men on the moon quickly and safely - not the technocrats/beaurocrats that currently run NASA. The timescale for Apollo development was amazing, now we look back. Think of those early fanatical engineers, like von braun.. I think that a series of objectives, ie - first orbit, orbital hotel, ending with prizes for the first bases on the moon/mars, could acheieve far more for much much less public money - maybe operating in tandem with NASA agencies. If fact it seems NASA is starting to think this way too, and offer its own X-prize..

      In the meantime, robotic probes can test for bacteria before humans land and contaminate the planet..

      (Some of the obove was a paste from an earlier post of mine..)

      --
      "You lied to me! There is a Swansea!"
    8. Re:Why NASA bugs me by ChuckDivine · · Score: 2, Interesting

      bobhagopian writes:

      First off, let me say that I'm an astrophysicist. I value "good astrophysics data" more than anyone else. I think Hubble should remain in a functional state, at least until a replacement (with detectors in more than just a couple frequency ranges) can be put into space. I also believe that going to the Moon right now is a waste of time and money.

      I'm going to make a brief comment here.

      Going back to the Moon will have some research value. To say we've exhausted what we can learn about the Moon is simply not true. Is it the best place to put our research bucks now? Probably not. Other areas would probably yield more bang for the buck.

      Will going back to the Moon excite the public about space exploration? Again, not as much as the new Cassini mission or a search for life on Mars.

      But the value of returning to the Moon is not in research. It's much more in building space infrastructure. Today what we can do in space is limited quite severely to what we can launch from Earth. If we return to the Moon, we can perhaps start using space resources. That will greatly expand what we can do in space. To do much in space, sooner or later we're going to have to start using what we find out there, rather than just using what we can haul up from Earth.

      Why don't I favor going straight to Mars? To get to Mars with anything approaching present day technology requires very long travel times. When things go wrong (and they will go wrong) it's a long way to go for help.

      In the early years of the settlement of the Americas by Europeans, quite a bit went wrong. Whole colonies were wiped out. It took a long time to get to the point where we are today. And that effort was made in a physical environment not fundamentally different from the environment the Europeans left behind.

      Space is very different from Earth. Mars is very different from Earth. I want our mistakes to be made in ways that will allow us to recover from them and learn from them much more quickly. That means returning to the Moon -- and staying.

      There's another value to this work. The public can get excited about research. But they are more likely to support work that holds out the possibility of real material benefit to them.

      If 400-500 years ago Europeans had only sent explorers to the western hemisphere, do you think support would have continued for very long? Exploration is only one valuable human endeavor. There are many more things that humans do that have equal or greater value.

      Support space research -- but don't stop there. Support space exploitation as well. You'll wind up with far more research than we can currently support.

      --
      "Beer is proof God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- B. Franklin
  6. So we're just supposed to give up? by Atario · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I could see them objecting to maintaining Hubble in favor of a better space telescope, or even "we haven't got enough money", but because there's a risk?

    Is the idea at NASA that we should just not try something because there's a risk? I mean, is this the same agency that put men on the moon eleven years after being formed? Should I just not go to work tomorrow because I could get run down crossing the street?

    What the hell happened to this country's can-do spirit?

    --
    "A great democracy must be progressive or it will soon cease to be a great democracy." --Theodore Roosevelt
    1. Re:So we're just supposed to give up? by ravenspear · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What the hell happened to this country's can-do spirit?

      On 9/11 the terrorists succeeded in replacing it with "what can we do to best cover our ass."

    2. Re:So we're just supposed to give up? by wass · · Score: 1
      I think that O'Keefe is more concerned about preventing more astronaut deaths during his tenure at NASA than scientific progress. So there might be less accidents in the future, but NASA risks turning into a marshmallow in the process.

      It's really annoying, because NASA is funded w/ our tax dollars, but Bush has the ability to pick and choose it's head administrator at will. O'Keefe was a Bush appointee, and always in the back of O'Keefe's mind will be the fact that Bush can withdraw his position. Thus, O'Keefe happily pushes Bush's Mars agenda, which leaves little money left for Hubble, among other projects.

      Luckily the majority of scientists, both at NASA and elsewhere, support maintaining Hubble and the other astronomical observatories as well (both space-based and ground-based). Many politicians (eg Rep. Barbara Mikulski [D-MD]) are representing the scientists interests, and have been successful in getting scientific hearings and evaluations to augment O'Keefe's personal decisions.

      --

      make world, not war

    3. Re:So we're just supposed to give up? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      (1) Given the Hubble's expected lifespan without another service, it will have performed something like 80% of it's design lifespan. This is a mission measured in *years*. And the science that the Hubble can do is starting to become eclipsed by ground-based work. The Hubble is starting to become nothing more than a figurehead to astronomy that serves limited purpose.

      (2) The shuttle is a 30-year old piece of shit.. the height of overcomplicated early 1970's technology. I would not fly on it if you were going to give me a couple of million dollars tax-free on my safe return (or to my next of kin if I didn't).

      Think of how far automobiles have come in the same timeframe - superior safety, design, greater capacity and far greater efficiency. Just as that one friend you know with the late 60's model car is always having to get a jump start, the shuttle is more likely to explode than make it to orbit. No matter how well maintained it is, the bodies themselves are ancient and well past the original design lifespan. It still uses *tiles* for god's sake - today you can make the hull out of high-tech materials that can take the stresses of re-entry without protection - without heavy tiles that are prone to falling off.

      Anyway, if you want an orbital shuttle, you should resurrect the DC-X, DC-AX, X-33 and X-34 projects but with sane budget control and no bullshit $200,000 mystery expenses on the taxpayer. These projects were the last great government single stage to orbit research projects. At this rate, the first single stage to orbit vehicle will be civilian.

    4. Re:So we're just supposed to give up? by bigpat · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "On 9/11 the terrorists succeeded in replacing it with "what can we do to best cover our ass."

      We did that to ourselves, terrorists can only kill people.

    5. Re:So we're just supposed to give up? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This country's can-do spirit with respect to space travel / space exploration started to die somewhere in late 1969-1970. Once Neil and Buzz had walked on the moon, people lost interest. Americans were more interested in watching soap operas than watching Conrad/Bean (Apollo 12) explore the surface of the moon.

      The country was breifly interested again in April 1970 during the Apollo 13 mission, but suddenly and tragically lost interest again. Don't believe me? Just ask a random colleague how many Americans walked on the moon. Odds are they won't know that the answer is 12, and in my experience, most falsely believe that the Russians also landed a man on the moon.

      The Saturn 5 rockets were already built when Apollos 18-20 were cancelled. We gave up on the moon, and we gave up on space exploration to languish in LEO for 30 years, and that's tragic!

    6. Re:So we're just supposed to give up? by aggiefalcon01 · · Score: 1

      What the hell happened to this country's can-do spirit?

      I don't know, but I'm sure it has nothing to do with the introduction of welfare & handout programs, and billion$ in aid to foreign countries that still hate us anyway.

      --
      Global warming is neither science, nor politics. It is a religion.
  7. Bad news for astronauts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Looks like the robots are replacing humans more and more.
    More people will loose thair job, if this development continues on earth.

    Whatever you say. Gimp RulZ anyway

  8. Make up your minds! by syousef · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If its on, give it the time and funding it deserves. If its off, don't waste resources on it. This to and fro nonsense just wastes money that could be used elsewhere and increases the risks if a mission does eventually go ahead.

    No one's willing to take risks or make a decision anymore. All we need is another damn shuttle disaster to slow everything down and have people screaming "its too dangerous to explore space - spend all your money down here".

    --
    These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    1. Re:Make up your minds! by kfg · · Score: 1

      All we need is another damn shuttle disaster to slow everything down and have people screaming "its too dangerous to explore space - spend all your money down here".

      Do you not suppose that this is the actual risk that NASA is considering when they say the mission would be "too risky"?

      KFG

    2. Re:Make up your minds! by syousef · · Score: 1

      They are not going to improve the risk by deciding not to do it then giving their staff too little time to get it done when they finally turn their decision around.

      I definitely want Hubble serviced. What I don't want is this BS should we shouldn't we crap that has the potential to cost lives and slow down the space program even more.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    3. Re:Make up your minds! by kfg · · Score: 1

      What I don't want is this BS should we shouldn't we crap that has the potential to cost lives and slow down the space program even more.

      I concur fully, but that is the nature of politics and NASA is inherently a political body. A political body with no actual political power to boot. They can be yanked around by virtually anybody with actual power and that affects the way they approach issuses, which, yes, has already cost lives.

      KFG

    4. Re:Make up your minds! by aggiefalcon01 · · Score: 1

      I concur fully, but that is the nature of politics and NASA is inherently a political body. A political body with no actual political power to boot. They can be yanked around by virtually anybody with actual power and that affects the way they approach issuses, which, yes, has already cost lives.

      So while NASA has a potentially simple source of large funding (i.e. politicians with the taxpayer revenues to spend--and yes, I know "simple" doesn't fit at all), it would seem a grossly imperfect body with which to do such activities. What I keep asking myself, then, is what would be better? Private lab with tons of donations? Eccentric billionaire with a vision?

      --
      Global warming is neither science, nor politics. It is a religion.
    5. Re:Make up your minds! by kfg · · Score: 1

      Eccentric billionaire with a vision?

      That seems to be Rutan's take.

      KFG

  9. can-do spirit vs. recklessness by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What the hell happened to this country's can-do spirit?

    Can-do is great. Disregarding safety because a job seems like it's important is not.

    "The pick should never have been made. But peer pressure was used and I succumbed. That skid was heavy right off the truck with that 35 ton crane and I still had to boom down with it. Well, I got that skid about 3' away from where it had to go and stopped. My rear pads were about a foot off the ground and I had had enough. My foreman is screaming at me to boom down. I'm waving him off and starting to boom up and lower the load. He went ballistic. I stopped bringing the load to me when my pads were back on the ground. I should have put the skid back on the low boy but didn't. The foreman told me to wait one minute and pretty soon I saw an excavator and a D6 come rumbling up the haul road only to take position behind me and pin each outrigger beam down with the blade on oneside and the bucket on the other. Now it was showtime. The skid was placed where it had to go, the machine remained intact, and no one got hurt. People were clapping me on the back and telling me how "American" I was. Other people were shaking their heads. I could've puked."

    from craneaccidents.com

    1. Re:can-do spirit vs. recklessness by el-spectre · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Sure, and no one would expect them to try this is the astronauts were likely to become injured. But just because there is _any_ significant risk isn't a good reason to cancel.

      To use your story... every crane lift is dangerous, and a certain (small) percentage fail. Still, we are careful and take out timee. Had we not, the species would just be sitting around like Moongazer, afraid to leave the cave.

      --
      "Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel." - A.B.
  10. Robotic repair mission a bad idea by abryden · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I do not think that this would be a good idea. While it would be impressive if they could pull it off, the risk of failure outweighs the benefits even more greatly than that of a manned mission. Attempting to deploy "several bleeding edge technologies" on a "very short time scale" for a project like repairing the hubble space telescope is simply not a good idea. In all likelihood the technology used will not be adequately developed and it will be a unnecessary failure.

    With the recent success of the Mars missions, NASA is starting to get its good name back, they need to see this continue and properly manage their risk, not spend money on projects they know will in all likelihood fail.

    --
    Aaron Bryden

    abrydenREMOVETHIS@gmail.com
    1. Re:Robotic repair mission a bad idea by HeghmoH · · Score: 1

      Attempting to deploy "several bleeding edge technologies" on a "very short time scale" for a project like repairing the hubble space telescope is simply not a good idea. In all likelihood the technology used will not be adequately developed and it will be a unnecessary failure.

      You know, space programs in general and NASA in particular have a very good track record of taking tons of bleeding edge technologies, throwing them all together in a mission, and pulling it off wonderfully. Your scenario is possible, but I don't see it as being likely at all.

      --
      Mod down posts with a "Free Mac Mini/iPod" sig, they're spam!
    2. Re:Robotic repair mission a bad idea by TehHustler · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure what you mean by this. The stuff to perform a repair mission has already been developed, and used on numerous occasions. In addition, the new instruments are tested and ready to go. This would not be a significant departure from other missions. What IS a significant departure is the robotic aspect, and the attaching of the deorbit booster.

      --

      TheHustler
      http://www.elmarko.org/ - Useless bilge
      http://www.asylum-games.co.uk/ - Co-Founder
  11. NASA and Being Sexy by prichardson · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The problem with NASA is that it wants to be sexy rather than actually try and discover stuff. Looking for life on Mars is sexy. Looking into some obscure spectrum of something or other with a huge array of sensors located in Antarctica is not.

    Despite the fact that every time we try and use a new way to look at stuff (some obscure spectrum of something or other, for example) we find a lot out there, NASA stopped building an array of sensors in Antarctica (which son of George H Bush that put the pressure on them to do this is left as an exercise to the reader). The reason is that the populace seems to like sending stuff somewhere. Seeing more just isn't cool anymore. The Hubble telescope will fall into disrepair because people don't like looking at stuff. They insist on touching it. Even if that means the stuff is more than a few orders of magnitude closer.

    I guess I'll sum it up.
    Going to Mars with a robat that touches stuff and messes around: SEXY
    Looking at shit with a few big mirrors: NOT sexy

    --
    Help I'm a rock.
    1. Re:NASA and Being Sexy by wass · · Score: 2, Informative
      Note - it's not NASA per se, but NASA administrators and bureaucrats that are leading this way. Most of the scientists and research staff actually support those science/research missions.

      On the flip side, some glitz and glamour is also needed to keep the public interested, which interests politicians and helps them direct more money at NASA. Remember, NASA has to convince the government that it needs to be funded. The sexy projects have public appeal, and have more influence in this regard.

      That's why nearly all NASA press-release packages have photos instead of spectral plots, even though astronomers probably use spectra more often than photos for most research. Photos are pretty and sexy, spectra look like boring stock-market plots.

      But anyway, luckily enough scientists are influencing some of the politicians as well to keep Hubble funded (and other good projects too). That's part of the breaks of being government funded - you have to be useful as well as interesting.

      --

      make world, not war

    2. Re:NASA and Being Sexy by evilviper · · Score: 1
      Going to Mars with a robat that touches stuff and messes around: SEXY
      Looking at shit with a few big mirrors: NOT sexy

      I think that should be rephrased:

      Going to Mars with a robot that touches stuff and messes around: FUNDING
      Looking at shit with a few big mirrors: NO FUNDING
      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    3. Re:NASA and Being Sexy by mbrother · · Score: 1

      And please, keep in mind, a lot of what Hubble points at, and NASA funds, is decided by peer review, that is, other scientists. We make decisions based on good science, not sexiness. Hey, I mean, look at your average scientist. What do you think we're doing?

      --
      Professor of Astronomy, Author of Spider Star & Star Dragon (Tor)
    4. Re:NASA and Being Sexy by Nakkel · · Score: 0

      robat that touches stuff and messes around: SEXY

      Mmmm... Sexy robot... Wouldnt mind getting my stuff touched and messing with one of these.

    5. Re:NASA and Being Sexy by khallow · · Score: 1
      Despite the fact that every time we try and use a new way to look at stuff (some obscure spectrum of something or other, for example) we find a lot out there, NASA stopped building an array of sensors in Antarctica (which son of George H Bush that put the pressure on them to do this is left as an exercise to the reader). The reason is that the populace seems to like sending stuff somewhere. Seeing more just isn't cool anymore. The Hubble telescope will fall into disrepair because people don't like looking at stuff. They insist on touching it. Even if that means the stuff is more than a few orders of magnitude closer.

      I don't buy this. There's been a lot of support for Hubble as well as the Martian probes. I think the real matter is that space exploration is never going to be a high priority of any administration because it won't significantly boost your chances of winning an election. OTOH, dismissing space exploration could cost you votes. So we end up with the situation where NASA lingers and vast ambitious plans are routinely drawn up and ignored.

  12. Some actual costs from NASA ... by xmas2003 · · Score: 4, Informative
    To be more exact, according to the NASA Hubble site, it cost $1.5 Billion to build and put it up into orbit, and has an annual operating budget (including data analysis, etc.) of $230-250 million.

    And Hubble's second servicing mission cost $347 million plus another $448 million for the Shuttle flight - I believe that is in 1996 dollars.

    So as a taxpayer, for all that dough, how 'bout some new satellite pictures of my house! ;-)

    --
    Hulk SMASH Celiac Disease
    1. Re:Some actual costs from NASA ... by evilviper · · Score: 0, Offtopic
      I believe that is in 1996 dollars.

      OOOOOHHHHH... A whole 8 years of inflation... That could be 1/100th of 1% more in todays dollars...
      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    2. Re:Some actual costs from NASA ... by gilroy · · Score: 2, Informative
      Blockquoth the poster:

      OOOOOHHHHH... A whole 8 years of inflation... That could be 1/100th of 1% more in todays dollars...

      OK, I'm a child of the late 1970s, so I hear you when you scoff at recent rates of inflation. But according to the inflation calculator, something that cost $1 in 1996 would cost about $1.21 right now. That's not really negligible.
    3. Re:Some actual costs from NASA ... by mangu · · Score: 4, Insightful
      something that cost $1 in 1996 would cost about $1.21 right now.


      Depends on exactly what you are buying. If it's gasoline, it'll cost more today. If it's a computer hard disk, it'll cost approximately the same. If it's a gigabyte of storage in a large system, it'll cost significantly less. The problem with inflation calculations is that "cost of living" isn't a very good reference index for things like space telescopes.


      This is a problem that everyone has to cope with when one considers upgrading a home computer. The machine you have right now may be almost worhtless, considering its capabilities and what the same capabilities would cost today. But you spent a lot for it a few years back. So we are always reluctant to trash or donate an old computer, but from the viewpoint of a cost/benefit analysis it might be the most rational thing to do.


      Of course, the cost of space missions hasn't gone down like computer hardware did, but still one wonders if a better and more advanced space telescope couldn't be built at the same price a maintenance mission to Hubble would cost.

    4. Re:Some actual costs from NASA ... by gilroy · · Score: 4, Informative
      Blockquoth the poster:

      Of course, the cost of space missions hasn't gone down like computer hardware did, but still one wonders if a better and more advanced space telescope couldn't be built at the same price a maintenance mission to Hubble would cost.

      Since most of the expense is in the launch -- and that would be comparable for a new satellite -- the answer is No. But more importantly, there is a replacement for the Hubble in the pipeline (the James Webb Telescope) but it is not scheduled for launch until 2011. Given the precariousness of NASA's launch capability, politicals will, and funding, one has to regard that as a soft date.

      Meanwhile, if they don't service Hubble, it will have to be de-orbited. (Note that even just deorbiting the thing will cost about $300 million, which is around 60% of the cost of the proposed service mission -- not counting any hypothetical replacement.) Unserviced, Hubble will fail in 2007 or 2008. That leaves at least 3 years where there will not be an orbiting telescope with the breadth and coverage afforded by Hubble.

      (What's three years? Well, for one thing, we might miss a supernova in the Milky Way. They should happen around once a century but none have been seen in the Milky Way since 1600 or so. It would be almost criminal to have such an event happen during a window when we couldn't observe it from orbit. We could have to wait another few centuries for the next chance.)
    5. Re:Some actual costs from NASA ... by PierceLabs · · Score: 2, Informative

      The James Web telescope is not a replacement for Hubble. They both don't have the same capabilities, lenses, or spectrum view. While JWT will be able to see further and fainter objects, it spectrum variety is smaller.

    6. Re:Some actual costs from NASA ... by BootNinja · · Score: 1

      the hubble cannot take decent quality pictures of earth because it is too close

    7. Re:Some actual costs from NASA ... by CaptainAvatar · · Score: 1
      And Hubble's second servicing mission cost $347 million plus another $448 million for the Shuttle flight - I believe that is in 1996 dollars.

      Most of that $347 million would have been already spent though, as the new instruments and gyroscopes have already been built. So the savings would only be $448 million (not exactly chump change, I admit ...)

      --
      The real Captain Avatar is a fictional character, so I suppose he doesn't mind if I impersonate him.
  13. uh.... by StealthX20 · · Score: 0

    How long was Hubble supposted to be up and running in the first place and don't we now have ground-based telescopes that can perform as well if not better than Hubble? Ditch the nostalgia and let Hubble go. We'll get along fine without it.

    1. Re:uh.... by mbrother · · Score: 3, Informative

      No, StealthX20, we DON'T have ground-based telescopes that can do the things that Hubble can do. The no brainer is the ultraviolet, which cannot pass through Earth's atmosphere. There are more tasks, that depend on high-spatial resolution, that some ground-based telescopes can approach, but not match, at least not in all respects. The astronomical community would like to keep Hubble operating until its replacement is launched, but without a servicing mission that is unlikely, and hundreds of millions of dollars have already been spent on new instruments to increase Hubble's capacity. That money will be wasted.

      --
      Professor of Astronomy, Author of Spider Star & Star Dragon (Tor)
    2. Re:uh.... by tklive · · Score: 1

      well.. maybe not just yet
      but the LBT project promises to change that.
      Sure, its slightly behind schedule, but its racing towards its first light pretty fast.

    3. Re:uh.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, ground-based telescopes can see better than Hubble in the tiny fraction of the spectrum that reaches them. Except for the very start of the UV spectrum, everything more energetic is blocked by our atmosphere. Below the visual spectrum, there are some radio bands and a couple narrow IR bands you can peek through.

      Although there are other space telescopes for almost every wavelength, the other thing is that everyone *knows* hubble. How many people know about the Spitzer Space Telescope? The Chandra X-Ray observatory? SoHo (Well, probably a few for that one)? But everyone knows Hubble, and associates it with breathtaking images of space. In short, Hubble is great PR for NASA. And good PR makes it possible to pimp congress for money.

  14. Ground Telescopes by WeekendLazyness · · Score: 0, Interesting

    Hubble is a great telescope, no doubt about it. Unfortunately, ground based telescopes now are able to get around the distortion of the atmosphere to obtain even better images of the stars than Hubble ever could. I'd hate to see Hubble go, but as long as NASA keeps supporting doomed projects such as the ISS, I think we are going to be saying goodbye soon.

  15. MOD PARENT UP! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    n/t

  16. Hubble not to be maintained? thats crazy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hubble space craft is needed... Why? It is a known fact among the star gazer's that there are hundreds of blackholes just in our galazy. It could provide us with ample warning if one of them comes to close to us. The distruction would be on a scale humans have yet to see.

    1. Re:Hubble not to be maintained? thats crazy by Kiryat+Malachi · · Score: 1

      You're a total crackpot.

      If a blackhole came near enough to us to affect us, we would be *screwed*, warning or none. We don't have interstellar flight and would be unlikely to develop it in time, and you'd need interstellar flight to avoid that sort of disaster.

      --

      ---
      Mod me down, you fucking twits. Go ahead. I dare you.
      (I read with sigs off.)
  17. NASAs' Short Sightedness by CodeBuster · · Score: 4, Insightful

    NASA did nearly the same thing towards the end of the Apollo program...They scrapped the last two lunar landings, even though ALL of the hardware was already built and ready to go, because they didn't want to staff the control room and fuel the rockets. It has been said that this was equivalent to crushing a brand new Rolls Royce which has never been driven simply because one does not want to pay for a tank of gas.

    The astronauts have already said that they are willing to accept the very reasonable level of risk to fly the mission and repair the Hubble. It is terribly ironic that one of the few worthwhile shuttle missions of the last decade is scrapped because something MIGHT go wrong. They seemed perfectly willing to risk human lives to fly loads of fairly useless experiments just a couple of years ago. Nobody would argue that the shuttle has lived up to the lofty promises that NASA administrators made to Congress in order to get the funding for all of this in the first place. The shuttle, despite that fact the shuttle itself is reusable, has cost billions more dollars than equivalent rocket missions would have. In fact, one of the main selling points of the shuttle, that it could carry 20 tons into low earth orbit, is moot because the shuttle almost never flies with the maximum payload for safety reasons. The decision not to save one of the best scientific investments ever made is a slap in the face after all of the money which NASA has sunk into the shuttle program. The Hubble Space telescope has added tremendously to our knowledge of the universe and inspired a generation of young scientists and engineers. If any further proof was needed of the impotence and wrong headed thinking at NASA then this is surely among the most damning pieces of evidence. Let us hope that they make the right decision before it is too late.

    1. Re:NASAs' Short Sightedness by meringuoid · · Score: 3, Interesting
      NASA did nearly the same thing towards the end of the Apollo program...They scrapped the last two lunar landings, even though ALL of the hardware was already built and ready to go, because they didn't want to staff the control room and fuel the rockets. It has been said that this was equivalent to crushing a brand new Rolls Royce which has never been driven simply because one does not want to pay for a tank of gas.

      The worst thing of all is what the US government spent the money on, when they'd cut it from NASA's budget.

      Vietnam.

      I wonder... in a hundred years, will historians point to this decision and say that this is the moment when the American dream died?

      --
      Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
    2. Re:NASAs' Short Sightedness by scharkalvin · · Score: 1

      Always knew Tricky Dick was a crook.

  18. I love how this system works by WeekendLazyness · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Hubble is a great telescope, no doubt about it. Unfortunately, ground based telescopes now are able to get around the distortion of the atmosphere to obtain even better images of the stars than Hubble ever could. I'd hate to see Hubble go, but as long as NASA keeps supporting doomed projects such as the ISS, I think we are going to be saying goodbye soon.

    Within five minutes after I posted that, it was given a -1, despite the fact there was a spam two posts below it that was completely off-topic. Isn't the mod system great?

  19. Happy to see this! by mbrother · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Hubble is really super, and don't go spouting off on how it sucks, or is impaired, or how it should be replaced...It is the best thing going for now, and the last 14 years, and it won't be replaced for several more years. I've still got a few Hubble projects I still want to do, and preamture failure might mean I won't get to do them, and I *can't* do them from the ground. It was never clear that a Hubble servicing mission was all that dangerous in the first place, probably not as dangerous as two ISS missions, for instance. I hate to see a new administrator come in and make the sort of unilateral decison(at least he didn't solicit astronomers!) especially someone who isn't a real scientist.

    --
    Professor of Astronomy, Author of Spider Star & Star Dragon (Tor)
    1. Re:Happy to see this! by niktemadur · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I agree. Hubble has been able to take a licking and keep on ticking in superb fashion. Hubble is tried and true, so why scrap that old, faithful VW Beetle?

      Now for those that say that Earth-based telescopes (EBTs) can now do an equal job, I don't believe that for a minute. No two ways about it, once light hits the athmosphere, it is scattered and some of it is irrevocably lost.

      Here's another aspect that makes Hubble superior to EBTs: Hubble will never have a cloudy night.

      Hubble is perfect for working in tandem with EBTs. I'm thinking the Deep Field Proyect: Hubble gets the clear image, finds an intriguing gap, and Hawaii's Keck is called into action to zoom in as deep as it can on those coordinates. And then, voilá, the most distant object ever pictured makes itself apparent. The people operating Keck would not have known where to point if it wasn't for Hubble. This is just one example of how Hubble keeps astronomers thinking outside of the box.

      Also, any more servicing missions that Hubble gets from the Space Shuttle will only increase the know-how for future maintenance missions, as there is NOTHING that can replace on-the-job experience.

      For many reasons, including pretty pictures, I believe the only thing that could possibly replace Hubble is another Space Telescope, and that's not in the near horizon, so let's keep Hubble, what do you say?

      --
      Lil' Thindime, lilting a lacrimose lament, krashes the kwaint konfines of Kokonino Kounty
    2. Re:Happy to see this! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      For many reasons, including pretty pictures, I believe the only thing that could possibly replace Hubble is another Space Telescope, and that's not in the near horizon, so let's keep Hubble, what do you say?

      James Webb Telescope is supposed to be launched in 2009, 2 years after Hubble is predicted to begin failing. That's the near horizon, what you say?

    3. Re:Happy to see this! by niktemadur · · Score: 1

      Actually, the James Webb Telescope is scheduled to be launched in 2011, not 2009. But the key concept here is "scheduled".

      1. It won't happen any sooner.
      2. It may happen later.
      3. If at all. What if Congress tries to adjust the budget again between now and then? What if (bite my tongue) there's a glitch?

      Believe me, I want that new telescope up there. I'm just trying to take into account the haphazard world of politics and NASA.

      I don't think, in this particular case, that's it's necessary to sacrifice what already is for something that will eventually be, and if all goes according to plan, at that.

      --
      Lil' Thindime, lilting a lacrimose lament, krashes the kwaint konfines of Kokonino Kounty
  20. Hubble by Lifix · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Space is an unknown, it is one of the harshest environments to be explored by humans. You'd think we could do a little better... Nock Nock... Better, Faster, Cheaper doesn't work. We make stupid mistakes which cost a lot of money. As far as I am concerned, everything that NASA does is new, it has never been tested before, so what should NASA do? Test it! Improve it! Sending a probe to mars without sufficient memory is entirely avoidable, as are mistakes in conversion, metric systems, and a myriad of problems with hubble, from Nicos (100m down the drain because some ice expanded) to the Gyroscopes, to the Mirror has been a failure. NASA has had many successes but its last two directors have had their flaws (including our current directors blinding obsession with finding life on mars). Bottom line... NASA needs new management and a new Mission Statement.

    --
    In nature, there are neither rewards or punishments, there are only consequences.
  21. NASA's "Safety Concerns" were a smokescreen. by node+3 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    During the proceedings (thanks C-SPAN!), it was quite evident that NASA was not giving a coherent reason for abandoning Hubble. NASA claimed that a mission to Hubble was unacceptably risky, while missions to ISS were not. The board pressed them on just how and why, and the increased risk seemed negligible for such a servicing mission.

    However NASA was excited about sending an unmanned robotic mission to service Hubble, and they claimed that there were companies working on proposals to provide that robot.

    My take was that this is the result of putting a non-scientist bean-counter (O'Keefe) in charge of NASA, coupled with an administration keen on cutting social funding while simultaneously funding private contractors as though there was no tomorrow.

    1. Re:NASA's "Safety Concerns" were a smokescreen. by BelugaParty · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I did not see the c-span coverage. However, I can see why the agency would be excited about servicing the telescope with robots. Mainly, because such an attempt would serve two purposes: it could fix hubble AND test out new technology. I can see both a cost benefit and scientific benefit to this solution. Whereas simply sending humans into spacewalk would be a waste.

    2. Re:NASA's "Safety Concerns" were a smokescreen. by node+3 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'd be excited about a robotic mission too ... if I believed it would work.

      The NASA guy (high up in the org) was really keen on the robot. He claimed to have seen "video" that was not (his words) "Power Point engineering".

      I'm highly skeptical of the robot idea, and here's why:

      NASA can afford to, and is capable of, repairing Hubble with a manned mission right now. The risk to the crew is negligibly greater than a mission to ISS, and NASA plans to send crews to ISS a-plenty.

      The risk to Hubble on a manned mission is fairly low. The risk to Hubble by entrusting it to an untested and today uninvented and yet-to-be-engineered robot is very high.

      I am *far* from convinced that cost and safety are rational reasons for the attitudes of being extremely against a manned mission to Hubble and being so emphatically enthusiastic on a robotic mission to Hubble. It doesn't add up. There are reasons I'm sure, but they *aren't* the officially stated reasons.

    3. Re:NASA's "Safety Concerns" were a smokescreen. by scharkalvin · · Score: 1

      Given enough pressure from the public and scientists I would hope the president would issue an executive order directing NASA to service Hubble, using the shuttle if necessary. If Bush doesn't have the common sense to do this (probably not) Kerry will.

    4. Re:NASA's "Safety Concerns" were a smokescreen. by mikelieman · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If you're so certain sending humans into a spacewalk would be a waste, than enlighten me: What happens when a bolt is 1/16" out of alignment, and the robot locks up? After a reboot, it STILL won't be able to COPE with the UNEXPECTED.

      THAT'S why sending people into space to actually DO things is SO DAMN IMPORTANT. Now, the question is: "Why do we keep sending 40 year old PHD's and NOT 20 year old Construction Workers?"

      --
      Technology -- No Place For Wimps! Grateful Dead and Jerry Garcia Chatroom -- http://www.wemissjerry.org
    5. Re:NASA's "Safety Concerns" were a smokescreen. by LMCBoy · · Score: 2, Informative

      The risk to Hubble on a manned mission is fairly low. The risk to Hubble by entrusting it to an untested and today uninvented and yet-to-be-engineered robot is very high.

      I agree with your general thread (that a manned repair mission is preferable because it has a higher probability of success), but to be fair, the robot is not yet-to-be-engineered. It exists, and it works. It was built by the Canadarm guys. It was meant to go up to ISS for remote work outside thespace station, but the HST guys kind of stole it from Greenbelt and moved it down to Cape Canaveral...

      --
      Liberal (adj.): Free from bigotry; open to progress; tolerant of others.
    6. Re:NASA's "Safety Concerns" were a smokescreen. by Kiryat+Malachi · · Score: 1

      Well, for one thing you design a robot that can tolerate limited error and go around it.

      For another, you design a robot that can "phone home" for instructions in the case of the unexpected, just like a human would.

      And for the third, developing a robotic repair capability would allow us to maintain things like the JWST if we need to, things that are outside of our current human space presence. How can you possibly view that as bad?

      Yes, human space exploration is good, but we know how to send missions to Hubble, we know how to do spacewalks. We don't know how to let a robot automatically do detailed repair and upgrade work. I have a lot of respect for Hubble, but at this point in its lifetime, using it as the testbed for automated robotic repair technologies is every bit as useful as the continued science it can do.

      --

      ---
      Mod me down, you fucking twits. Go ahead. I dare you.
      (I read with sigs off.)
    7. Re:NASA's "Safety Concerns" were a smokescreen. by ckaminski · · Score: 1

      If the Russians can manage to get a Progress resupply vehicle to the ISS without killing the cosmonauts inside it, I have faith that American engineering can do the same with Hubble for 25x the cost.

  22. Tea Kettle by Graymalkin · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The HST's data archive is currently about 12TB. That data lone is going to provide grounds for scientific papers well into the future. This data archive grows by about 2TB every year. That is a lot of data out of one instrument. There's a lot of good science left in that data. Letting that tremendous data source fall prematurly into the ocean because the HST was abandoned would be monumentally stupid.

    There's also quite a bit of money and resources already devoted to the HST. Instruments and components have been built and paid for and the work is already done. Letting it sit on a shelf indefinitely would be a magnificent waste. Besides the money already spent a mission will have to be sent up, automated or not, to de-orbit the HST.

    NASA ought to bite the bullet and push the envelope a little bit. It doesn't matter that they would be using untested technologies. Fixing the HST would be the test. I have little doubt that it would be feasible to robotically service the HST. A small cadre of tool laden AIBOs with rocket packs should be able to do the trick. If NASA is too scared to send people into space they could at least send a few cute robot dogs.

    The technology and techniques learned with the HST could be applied later with the ISS' construction or even an in-orbit repair of a Shuttle or other craft. Maybe we could even start designing satellites that are meant to be services by robots to extend their useful lifetimes. Companies would be much more likely to invest in satellites if its potential operational life of 20+ years instead of 12 if everything goes alright.

    --
    I'm a loner Dottie, a Rebel.
    1. Re:Tea Kettle by Kiryat+Malachi · · Score: 1
      Companies would be much more likely to invest in satellites if its potential operational life of 20+ years instead of 12 if everything goes alright.


      Actually, probably not; it's like computers. A 12 year old satellite is already obsolote; why would they bother trying to fix it when they could stash it into an inactive orbit and launch a new one?
      --

      ---
      Mod me down, you fucking twits. Go ahead. I dare you.
      (I read with sigs off.)
  23. NASA relevancy: historical & fictional paralle by Buran · · Score: 2

    I made the mistake of opening up one of Anne McCaffrey's Pern novels as a soaking-in-tub read the other week, and I've gotten re-hooked on the series. While the books don't play this up (excepting a few of the later ones), the fact is that these books actually, to me at least, provide a surprising amount of insight into why NASA is falling apart and no longer inspiring like it once did.

    The books are about a lost Terran colony (that's us) that has been out of touch with the rest of the universe by accident (a series of natural disasters shortly after the colony was formed destroyed much of the colony infrastructure) and design (frustration with wars, politics, etc. elsewhere meant the colonists were isolationists in search of a simpler life).

    In the Pern series, all of the colonists were volunteers. So too are all astronauts (and, presumably, all cosmonauts and taikonauts; so far, the sole civilian astronaut was also a volunteer). They know the risks they take, and it's within their rights, I think, to want to take them. Right now we have the bureaucrats running scared, and they're losing sight of that fact. Too bad, too, because Senator Jake Garn flew on the shuttle once and knows the risks involved. (Is he still a senator?)

    So that's strike one against NASA -- they've gotten scared.

    What's important to think about here is this: anyone who's read the series knows that there's absolutely no sign of any Terran involvement anywhere. Why might that be?

    While the initial planetary exploration efforts were government-funded (see Dragonsdawn for more about the intial survey, and some of the associated short stories like Rescue Run), the actual settling of the planet was carried out by private interests. And that's because the government doesn't really have an interest in supporting long, involved work like that (because of the costs, relatively low return, and so on) beyond adding to its territory ("we have a colony there; we'll defend it; we can say we have a bigger empire now, and the people can pay taxes"). But if it eventually becomes generally accepted that the surrounding area is part of a nation's territory and no trouble ever is stirred up there, it'll just sort of quietly be forgotten except for boundaries on some maps gathering dust in some library somewhere, which (while never explained in the books) is quite a likely scenario.

    Why should the government continue to care, when private interests in the form of corporations or non-profit organizations will arise spontaneously to do the job once it's been proven possible by all that government research collectively supported by our tax dollars (remember, NASA gets 1-2% of the federal budget, if even that)? The focus shifts from government sponsorship to private over time. (This transition is in progress now for spaceflight in the form of the X-Prize.) Once private industry figures out how to make a profit out of it the way it did with the "empty" Americas, I'm betting that all kinds of private-industry spacecraft will be built (hotels, asteroid mining are just two of the most common conjectures) and will eventually vastly outnumber government craft, as is already the case with communications satellites. The government doesn't have to deal with managing and funding all that -- it just issues regulations and collects taxes and fees. Just like it issues Charters to proposed colonies, licenses spacecraft, and collects application fees as well as (presumably) taxes from the colony itself once it's formed. Politicians are, after all, inherently lazy.

    So that's strike two -- the loss of government incentive to become involved, because there's nothing in it for them anymore and because private interests have arisen that can do the job for less and with greater efficiency (Arianespace, Energia RSC).

    There's a real-life parallel here: the exploration of the Americas, what we now call the New World. The original 1492 Columbus expedition was government-funded and was originally intended to open up trade routes (back to

  24. [OT] Your sig by achurch · · Score: 4, Funny

    3.1415926535897932384629

    In case you're not aware: s/9$/6/

    And don't ask why I know that off the top of my head . . .

    1. Re:[OT] Your sig by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The grandparent poster works at NASA, you insensitive clod !

  25. Timeshare to raise money? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Maybe they could raise money for a shuttle repair mission by renting a timeshare of the telescope out to japan so they can monitor schoolchildren.

  26. They should just buy one Soyuz by Vitus+Wagner · · Score: 5, Interesting

    If NASA is not sure that shuttle can fly safely,
    they should by one Soyuz from us, Russians.

    Of course, Soyuz is technology of early 70'th,
    but it would be newly manufactured, when shuttles are PRODUCTION of eithties. It is also order of magnitude cheaper. We fly space tourishs to ISS for $20millions or so.

    1. Re:They should just buy one Soyuz by aggiefalcon01 · · Score: 1

      Yes, but that would hurt the administration's ego ...

      --
      Global warming is neither science, nor politics. It is a religion.
  27. HST? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    Fear and Loathing: in Space.

    1. Re:HST? by lightbuddy · · Score: 1

      Now that's funny but I knew there had to be a few HST fans out there that were going to beat me to it! Yeah the guy is usually pretty high but I don't think we need NASA and their rockets to find him. I can lead you to the Owl Ranch for let's say 10% of the cost of what those lab coat wearing fellers will charge the American tax payer but I can't guarantee you would be any safer than flying around in a space ship as it's rumored he takes pot shots at trespassers! Mind you he didn't shoot at us when we stopped by to quickly tack our business cards to his fence post in hopes that he would e-mail us but he was either not home or he could tell that we were the "right kind of people." ;-) (P.S. Hunter if you're reading this send me an e-mail and I'll send you a bottle of Wild Turkey!)

      --
      End of an era...
  28. Totally screwed up priorities ... by quarkscat · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The HST provides the best telescope data, period.
    The bean counter idiots in charge of NASA intend
    to replace HST with an inferior IR space-based
    telescope. The same contractors that have been
    working on HST are working on the "replacement".
    There is far more money to be made developing a
    new telescope than there is for "maintenence" on
    the HST. The development of a bleeding edge
    robotic servicing mission also is more profitable
    for the contractors than a manned mission.

    It all boils down to money, and where that money
    would be spent. Space robotics have a huge
    potential in military applications, so the R&D
    money spent by NASA can be parlayed into bigger
    profits for these same contractors. The best
    hope for the continued survival of HST would be
    to farm out the repairs to China or India, but
    the political costs would be too great.

    The money misspent on the ISS has drained the
    NASA budget at a time when pure science is
    being sacrificed for dual-use applied science
    and political expediency. The ISS has become
    a fiscal "black hole", with budget overruns
    that make the original projected costs of the
    shuttle program look like kindergarten.

    When real scientists running NASA were replaced
    with politically "inspired" professional bean
    counters is when NASA started going downhill.
    And the Bush "back to the moon" initiative is
    pure BS, as there is no valid scientific value,
    nor the money to waste, for such a mission
    directive.

    1. Re:Totally screwed up priorities ... by SB9876 · · Score: 1

      While I am strongly in favor of keeping Hubble operational because of its UV and visible capabilites, the James Webb IR telescope is hardly an inferior scope. It's got much improved optics, a better location and more sensitive detectors.

  29. Hubble, the Black Hole by Mulletproof · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Now I'm going to rain on half of everybodies parade and get modded strait to hell for doing so, but why should they put hubble back in orbit? No offense- and I like interstellar polaroids as much as you do -but hubble cost an ass-ton of money to maintain while showing next to no tangible returns other than said polaroids. Seeing fuzzy blobs that may be planets gets us... Nothing. "Seeing" further into space gets us exactly nowhere. I'm not talking within the solar system here, I'm talking about the crap we'll never be able to confirm in our lifetimes. And as harsh as it sounds, given the choice- hubble or the moon or mars -I'd pull the plug on hubble in a heartbeat too for as much of a bite as it takes out of my current budget.

    Practically put, Hubble is a black hole for money with little tangible return on investement. In a budget where every dollar counts, Hubble is the obvious loser, and perhapse rightfully so. This is also an object lesson for all of those crying about how NASA and the current administration can spend their money better. Well here it is. Kinda leaves a sour taste in your mouth, don't it?

    --
    You need a FREE iPod Nano
    1. Re:Hubble, the Black Hole by scharkalvin · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You know nothing about astronomy, cosmology, or even first grade science if you can make such a statement. Hubble has provided more return for the money than any other government funded science effort. Hubble's return has been in the form of pure knowledge however, not in the form of anything practible on earth. Someone who hasn't ever opened an encyclopedia wouldn't care about the kind of research conducted by the scientists using Hubble.
      Crawl back under your rock.

    2. Re:Hubble, the Black Hole by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you a shining example of our current education system?

      God help us all.

      You know exactly zero about the hubble and what it has done/can do and yet you come here and shout out your completely inane misinformation for all to see.

      Hooray for our future! :(

    3. Re:Hubble, the Black Hole by Mulletproof · · Score: 1

      "Hubble has provided more return for the money than any other government funded science effort."

      Ok, so name it. Something. Anything. Fine, we have theories about how the universe was formed. There might be planets out there. Look, a binary star system. Is that a black hole in the center of the galaxy? All of this is great. Really. But when it comes down to brass tacks, these intangibles are still a negative on the books. I won't claim to be a slashnot expert astronomer, but we're literally so far removed from most of what hubble is studying that it isn't that pressing of an issue, quite frankly. Mysteries of the universe are great. But in worlds with finite budgetary concerns and our current stonage level of galactic technology, deep sixing hubble isn't going to make a drop in the bucket, frankly.

      Right now the funds are needed to get from point A to point B. Catching glimpses of point Z at this juncture is a luxury. I'm sure we'll have enough time to try it again later.

      Don't get so emotional. It's not your fault you don't understand basic economics or the concept of Wants versus Needs. You want to study the cosmos. NASA needs the money somewhere else. See? Simple stuff.

      --
      You need a FREE iPod Nano
  30. O'Keefe is an Administrator. by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

    Do you think maybe that O'Keefe is protecting NASA against future poly-critter attacks. As you point out "he is not a scientist", probably because he has the title Administrator! The Colombia inqiry put ALL the blame on NASA and the poly-critters said to NASA "make it safer". So in response O'Keefe picks a mission with no prospect of rescue and says it's "too risky" according to the inqirys recommendations. He deliberately picks Hubble so as to maximize the noise in the media. Then (after suitable howls from the public) he magnamously suggests that a second opinion should be sought for such an importatnt decision. When he is inevitably "forced to change his mind" by the second & very public opinion then NASA will be able to share the blame around when (not if) one day, another ACCIDENT occurs. Wisdom, politics and Sun Tzu are not taught alongside science, pity really.

    --
    And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
  31. its all about the shuttle by jonwil · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Even if it could be shown that a shuttle mission (with a crew who are willing to accept all the risks) was cheaper and easier than a robotic mission, NASA would still push for the robotic mission.

    Because if something goes wrong, NASA are out one expensive irreplacable shuttle and only have 2 left.
    Which isnt that much of a margin for error when it comes to sending shuttles up to finish the ISS.

  32. Nice ground-based telescope with adaptive optics by elgatozorbas · · Score: 1

    Not taking sides in the discussion whether we have good enough ground-based telescopes or not, an interesting telescope exists, having adaptive optics to compensate for air tremor. More in this article from IEEE spectrum.
    Z

  33. They are special poloroids. by TapeCutter · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The "interstellar polaroids" and "fuzzy blobs" that you speak of form an enormous data set that is "the tangible return on investment" for science, I am assuming taxpayer funded science is the investor right? You see in science theories are free but raw emprical data on this scale is what is needed to test said theories. Collecting that data costs megabucks for any serious science to be performed. By your standards the mapping of the human genome was a waste of money because it tells us "nothing" and I'm pretty sure it also has some "crap we'll never be able to confirm in our lifetimes" hidden in it. How would you measure the return on the investment in weather recording over the last 100 years?

    --
    And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
  34. Send up Space Ship One! by fuzzybunny · · Score: 2, Funny

    Maybe they can pay someone like Burt Rutan...hushed silence...ten....million...dollars! to send a space ship up there to fix it.

    Oh wait...

    --
    Cole's Law: Thinly sliced cabbage
    1. Re:Send up Space Ship One! by wolverine1999 · · Score: 1

      But the Rutans in Doctor Who were bad aliens, no?
      They used to fight against the Sontarans...

  35. Safety concerns are perfectly valid. by Shivetya · · Score: 1

    Instead we have some egotistical jerks who want NASA to go save their precious Hubble when they know damn well that the Shuttle isn't safe, its just lucky.

    The best bet for NASA is to either shut down the shuttle fleet or use it only for shuttling people to the station. Another disaster, especially linked to something high profile, will kill NASA.

    I would rather the Hubble burn up before risking anyone on the shuttle.

    --
    * Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
  36. Hardly Objective by ishmalius · · Score: 1, Interesting
    The posting says "National Academy of Sciences," implying that the august body as a whole produced and endorses this report. In actuality, it was produced by a committee of Academy members, the Committee on the Assessment of Options for Extending the Life of the Hubble Space Telescope. So it was unlikely that it would have arrived at any other conclusion.

    I think the Hubble should be saved, too. It is by far the optical device with the best 'seeing'. NASA and the scientific community have already labored long, and spent a fortune running the program. It has produced wonderful results. This is in spite of its checkered history: what kind of dolt would send this priceless piece of hardware into space untested?

    However, I suspect that the Hubble people are not acting altruistically. They are not thinking 'what can WE do to improve space-based astronomy.' It is more like: 'I want more funding. Screw the rest of you guys.'

    1. Re:Hardly Objective by LMCBoy · · Score: 1

      It is more like: 'I want more funding. Screw the rest of you guys.'

      Oh, please. Who are "the rest of you guys" supposed to be in this scenario?

      FYI, the NAS committee was formed because O'Keefe bowed to intense pressure from scientists, politicians and the general public over his unilateral decision to let HST go. He asked NAS to form this committee and to give him its recommendation.

      --
      Liberal (adj.): Free from bigotry; open to progress; tolerant of others.
  37. If NASA's problem is money... by DungeonCoder · · Score: 0

    They could sell ads in Hubble's images.

    Maybe some scientist will buy generic generic viagra...

  38. Not Short Sightedness - Party Politics by nightwing2000 · · Score: 1
    I read an article years ago that summed it up...

    Moon Missions = Kennedy = Democrats. Therefore, Nixon cancelled as much of that as he could, once he got into power in 68 - most missions were too far along to cancel, but the later ones were ok to stop. "Scrap it all, build me a shuttle!"

    Carter was on the brink of cancelling the shuttle (build some nice Democrat program instead when the dust settled) but the program was too far along, to much money wasted to throw away.

    And then came Reagan and Bush ! with a vengeance...Although Reagan preferred the space plan, which by the time Clinton got ahold of it was put quietly to rest... I think it had a lot to do with which contractors were where.

  39. Why does it cost so much ? by farzadb82 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Why does a mission to repair the HST cost so much ? - I mean if companies like Scaled Composites can fly a mission into near space for around $20,000,000 why does a mission to HST have to cost almost 20 times that ?

  40. Difference in altitude by Phelan · · Score: 2, Informative

    Well you know
    56,000 miles is pretty impressive, but 160k miles it is not. So the Shuttle still has a couple of magnitudes advantage over our x-prize favorites.

    --
    "Nimis exaltatus rex sedet in vertice - caveat ruinam!"
    1. Re:Difference in altitude by Kiryat+Malachi · · Score: 2, Informative

      Both of those would be very impressive, but I suspect you meant to say 100km and 600km.

      Anyway. Sub orbital is a lot easier than orbital flight, is the real answer.

      --

      ---
      Mod me down, you fucking twits. Go ahead. I dare you.
      (I read with sigs off.)
  41. It's a plot, I'm sure by Positive+Charge · · Score: 1

    Nasa has to know full well how valuable HST is. From the very beginning, the little voice in my head has been telling me that NASA announced the abandonment of HST in order to leverage more funding.

    The little voice has been wrong once or twice.

  42. I'll keep this short by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The entire Pern series is garbage; well, the first is just mediocre.

    McCaffery is almost unreadable. I always picture her readers as girls who would otherwise be playing "Barbie" or guys who think football is too violent.

    So, the point is that a man should never admit to reading those books. Might as well put on a pink shirt and lisp.

  43. The decision has been made by jmichaelg · · Score: 3, Insightful
    All of the comments that start "Nasa should..." completely miss the point. O'Keefe made his call and , currently, O'Keefe runs Nasa. He's made it very clear that *his* decision will stand despite all the flack he's taken over *his* decision. Bush is about the only person who can either over rule or remove O'Keefe and Bush has a history of supporting people he appoints. Kerry flip flops so much that whatever he says he would do about Hubble if he were President doesn't carry much weight in my mind.

    O'Keefe is facing a grim reality - he can't fund all the projects he's got running. I'm not voting for Bush this year because he's run up a huge budget deficit - a deficit so large that us boomers won't live long enough to see retired. You younger ones will be paying for it long after we're gone. Since I'm pissed about the budget deficit, I can't very well say Nasa should get more money or fault O'Keefe for saying "you gotta choose and this is what my choices are..."

    1. Re:The decision has been made by LMCBoy · · Score: 1

      He's made it very clear that *his* decision will stand despite all the flack he's taken over *his* decision.

      O'Keefe himself asked the NAS to form this committee to investigate the future of HST. Granted, perhaps that was just to appease the tidal wave of critics that crashed down on him after he announced his decision, but if we take him at face value, then he is willing to consider options to save HST.

      --
      Liberal (adj.): Free from bigotry; open to progress; tolerant of others.
  44. can't make the orbit? by khallow · · Score: 1

    I don't think the Soyuz can make Hubble's orbit even if it's launched from the Equator. The Hubble is somewhere around 600 km above Earth while the International Space Station is at 300 km which is barely accessible from the usual mid-Asian launching point for Soyuz.

    1. Re:can't make the orbit? by Vitus+Wagner · · Score: 1

      Soyuz is launched using R7 rocket. R7 exists in several configurations, and some of them are able to launch Mars and Venera probes. Just add some extra fuel tank.

  45. My Step Mom Works on HST by ThePDW · · Score: 1

    My step mom works on HST (she's some sort of liason between contractors and NASA) and what my dad told me is that it's a pretty sure thing that there will be a servicing mission! Unfortunately, I haven't been able to verify this with my step mom but I can believe my dad :-)

  46. What about the Moon and Mars? by Hamster+Lover · · Score: 1

    If we're too afraid to send a mission to fix Hubble because suddenly the SST is "unsafe", how will we ever make it to the Moon or Mars?

    The seven Columbia astronauts understood the risks of spaceflight and took those risks willingly. If you asked for volunteers for another shuttle mission there is no doubt that you would find a sea of hands. I am sure that everyone from the designers and builders of the shuttle down to the flight engineers would like to see additional shuttle missions. I think the paralysis starts at the very top, for political reasons yet again.

    Not the first time that politics has interfered with science from the Bush administration.

  47. NASA's reasoning is actually legitimate... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I know most of the news outlets have been reporting vague safety concerns - I was rather skeptical that anything other than political and budgetary reasons were behind the decision to scrap the Hubble servicing mission.

    Last Friday, John Blaha addressed the San Antonio Astromical Association regarding the Hubble Space telescope decision. John's a fourteen-year veteran astronaut, and although he's been retired from NASA for the past few years, he still maintains his contacts within the NASA bureaucracy and is very much in the loop on their reasoning.

    Basically, the same thing happened after Columbia as with Challenger before it and Apollo One before that - the level of risk which Washington deems acceptable for the space program cranked down another order of magnitude, and NASA has to go to tangible lengths to satisfy that requirement.

    In this case, all future shuttle flights require a redundant safe haven should something go wrong in orbit, precluding reentry. Basically, that restricts all future Space Shuttle missions to the ISS's oribital plane, which is entirely orthogonal to the Hubble Space Telescope. While the Space Shuttle is capable of significant orbital maneuvering, it doesn't have the fuel capacity to change from an HST servicing orbit to an ISS docking orbit within the same flight.

    It's really just that simple. Any flights incapable of making orbital safe harbor at the ISS have been deemed an unacceptable risk, and the HST's orbit is too far off-axis from the ISS's orbit for the shuttle's orbital range.

  48. O'Keefe's comments by jmichaelg · · Score: 1
    In his speech to the American Astronomical Society, he said:
    Some have observed that this analysis is flawed. This might well be, but it is the analysis I've conducted and the judgment I've reached based on a very close, regular review of the Return to Flight challenges currently underway. Others may reach a different conclusion and harbor a different opinion, but none who have offered opposing views will be responsible for the outcome. In that regard, several editorial opinions have been offered asserting that my judgment is risk averse. Journalists have written stories about other journalists and the empowered opinionated who are offering this view and describe the criticism as "withering." Actually, it's pretty much standard fare for commentary on just about everything around Washington these days.
    Looks to me like he's made up his mind. If Bush overrides the decision, then Bush has to come up with either more money or tell O'Keefe what other project to cut. Neither outcome is likely so looks to me like O'Keefe doesn't have any options.
  49. How to (relatively) SAFELY service the Hubble. by antispam_ben · · Score: 1

    It's simple enough. Have two shuttle flights go to the higher HST orbit, with them timewise overlapping (the second goes up while the first is still in orbit). This way, if either has a "problem" that keeps it from re-entry, they can dock and all crowd into the other to return to Earth.

    And of course the second Shuttle wouldn't be on a thumb-twiddling mission. While one Shuttle services Hubble, the other could laumch sattelites, do science experiments, or whatever else a shuttle could do in the HST orbit.

    If they're really that afraid of unfixable Shuttle tile/re-entry problems, they could/should do all future Shuttle missions as overlapping two-at-a-time in dockable orbits. I don't know if NASA has the resources to do two missions at once, but if they're ever going to do a "rescue mission" (as was specuated might have been done had the Columbia been found unsafe for re-entry while still in orbit), they better get the resources and get some practice doing it.

    --
    Tag lost or not installed.
  50. A "Can't Do" Attitude at NASA by mhollis · · Score: 1

    NASA is trying to fund lots of things and its priorities have shifted in accordance with its history and funding.

    Back in the 1960s Congress funded NASA programs because it was "necessary" to beat the Soviets in technology. And the Space Race was the technology showcase that the Soviets chose for us (they were the first in Space with both unmanned and manned vehicles). Congressional candidates translated that into politics: If you did not vote for NASA funding, you were "soft on Communism."

    By the time of the moon landings, the rhetoric had changed from "red scare" and "red baiting" to The Great Society, basic human rights and whether or not one was for or against the war in Vietnam. Detante was in vogue because Nixon was winning the "unfought wars" against China and Russia with his trips there.

    NASA's attitudes changed from an assumption that funding would always be there, which encouraged a "can do" attitude, to wondering how to save programs and which programs to save. NASA negotiated with people who wanted launch vehicles and found it had competition -- not from the Soviets, who were still unacceptable to the West but from the newly-minted European corporation, largely funded by those governments in Western Europe who needed access to Clarke orbit for geostationary communication satellites.

    NASA's first proposal, which I remember from my World Book Encyclopedia, was to build a reusable manned vehicle that it could fit atop a Saturn rocket engine. NASA would use the Saturn V (which was used to launch the moon missions as well as Skylab) to construct an outpost in low Earth orbit and use these reusable vehicles to transfer men and cargo to a space station. The space station would, in turn, be a waypoint for launches to the moon and beyond.

    But NASA had problems getting customers to buy into its new concept, because its reusable launch vehicle, or "shuttle" was too small. The military insisted that its cargo bay be of a certain size, so that they could launch large spy satellites. NASA, fearing that all satellite launches would go to Arianespace, kowtowed to the US military and built our present shuttle system. The delay in changing the program cost them ten years and billions of dollars. It cost them most of their "can do" managers. It also cost them support in Congress and among the American people. With no regular launches, media started asking NASA the questions previously reserved for congressmen and the President: "Is this a good use of taxpayer money?"

    NASA administrators and PR people started talking about spinoffs from their scientific endeavors to answer many of these questions and even initiated the publication of a magazine in 1996 to help convince the public and corporations that NASA programs are relevant.

    Then came the shuttle program. It was over budget, very, very late and hugely popular, until the launches became routine. And what made them routine was a consistent refusal, within top level managers to see that space flight is more dangerous than flying in a private plane. Also, there was no funding for a place for the shuttle to get to as before the first shuttle launched, Skylab fell from the sky. By the time of the Challenger accident in 1986, upper level managers were no longer listening to the scientists assembling and handling the equipment And I would argue that the recommendations in management behavior didn't change.

    Nowadays, NASA is infected with a "can't do" attitude as the Columbia tragedy grounds NASA and the facts are reported that managers felt it was best to risk the lives of the astronauts and the shuttle because they

    --
    Gods don't kill people, people with gods kill people.
  51. why do you hate NASA so much? by natophonic · · Score: 1
    Bush is about the only person who can either over rule or remove O'Keefe and Bush has a history of supporting people he appoints. Kerry flip flops so much that whatever he says he would do about Hubble if he were President doesn't carry much weight in my mind.
    ah yes, criticizing poorly made decisions is nattering nabob negativity, while blindly following such mistakes shows 'courage of conviction' and real leadership!