ESPN NFL 2K5 Rushes Into Bug Issues

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ESPN NFL 2K5 Rushes Into Bug Issues

Posted by simoniker on Monday July 26, 2004 @08:04PM from the touchback dept.

Thanks to GameSpot for its article discussing issues with the online modes of Sega's PS2/Xbox title ESPN NFL 2005, as "a server update will be released on Friday 'to address the login and roster problems some of you are experiencing.' The problems affect both the PlayStation and Xbox versions of the game." Amidst messageboard rumblings of "AI issues", the high-rated, budget-priced title also seems to have a separate problem with the Xbox Live version, as it's advised if you're "having difficulties getting another user to accept your challenge or if you are not receiving challenges once you've created a match, [to] power down your Xbox and restart" - the developers, apparently wrestling with the previously mentioned Xbox Live "LSP (Live Server Protocol)", are planning to fix this problem by August 6th.

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Good riddance. by shaitand · 2004-07-26 20:14 · Score: -1, Flamebait

Does anyone like sports games anyway?
1. Re:Good riddance. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-26 20:43 · Score: 1, Insightful
  
  People who are otherwise non-gamers tend to love them, along with racing games.
  
  There's a reason annual updates to the same old NFL and NBA games sell well year after year - the unwashed masses. Me, I wouldn't care if sports gaming were a niche instead of mainstream, I'd still hate them.
2. Re:Good riddance. by Babbster · 2004-07-26 22:20 · Score: 1
  
  Does anyone like snotty gamers anyway?
3. Re:Good riddance. by bigman2003 · 2004-07-26 23:29 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  Do you know what is really going on in the world? (Beyond your bedroom door?)
  
  In the console world (and the article is referring to console games) game sales in 2003 were broken down like this:
  
  action (27.1%)
  sports (17.6 %)
  racing (15.7%)
  role-playing games (8.7%)
  fighting games (6.9%)
  family entertainment (4.7%)
  shooter games (4.6%)
  
  Contrary to what you might guess by reading Slashdot, the world is not full of RPG playing geeks drooling over the latest mmorpg. Two of the most maligned genres (sports and racing) make up 33% of sales. That's a lot of games- and a lot of people. PC game sales are only about 1/3 of console game sales (and falling).
  
  I just had 5 people come over to my house last night, and we played games for a while. Did they ask to play Morrowind? Or Zelda? Or KotOR? No...we played Basketball, Tennis and Golf.
  
  Those games work in a social environment- there were guys and girls, some with experience on the games, some without. But we all had fun playing, and everyone liked the games. (I will go on record saying that Top Spin is one of the best party games ever).
  
  It's fine that you like RPGs, and maybe you think they are the best things ever. But please realize that a large part of the world disagrees with you.
  
  --
  No reason to lie.
4. Re:Good riddance. by FortKnox · 2004-07-27 01:16 · Score: 1
  
  I'm a gamer. I play RPGs, my fav game of all time is System Shock 2, and I absolutely love football games (only on the console, though). Just because I'm a nerd and a gamer doesn't mean I don't/can't love football.
  
  --
  Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
5. Re:Good riddance. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-27 01:23 · Score: -1, Flamebait
  
  Only idiots like sports games.
  
  But consider that idiots are the 90 percent of global population...
6. Re:Good riddance. by shaitand · 2004-07-27 02:51 · Score: 1
  
  And 90% of RPGers play on pc's not consoles. Probably because all the RPG's are on the PC. There is a reason DAOC alone typically has over 100,000 players (between the servers) on at a given moment.
  
  Also aside from the occasional expansion, MMORPGers are paying monthly fees, not buying boxsets.
7. Re:Good riddance. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-27 02:58 · Score: 1, Insightful
  
  I like sports games. I like them a lot, and I don't consider myself to be an idiot.
  
  Regrettably, there seems to be this elitist and narrow-minded opinion among many in the "gamer" (I despise that word) community that FPS and RTS games are the pinnacle of gaming's evolution, and that all other genres are somehow beneath them. Nothing could be further from the truth.
  
  Virtually all popular sports are amazingly complex blends of strategy and skill. An astonishing level of depth exists in games like football. I'd go so far as to say that the level of intelligence and forethought required to coach a football team (electronic or otherwise) far outstrips the marginally functional level of brain activity required to build up a Zerg army and send it rushing towards your opponent, who is most likely doing the exact same thing. Even seemingly simplistic games like baseball have evolved very strong strategic components. (Look at some of the work that SABR has done.)
  
  So, in summation, you're an idiot who has no idea what he's talking about, and, most likely, IHBT. Ah well...
8. Re:Good riddance. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-27 03:02 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  Ummmm, not even close. Consoles have a very strong presence in the RPG market, and console RPG's most likely outsell PC RPG's several times over.
9. Re:Good riddance. by bigman2003 · 2004-07-27 04:12 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  Well, I think you are wrong again.
  
  From the same article I referenced earlier, here is the breakdown for PC games:
  
  strategy (27.1%)
  children's entertainment (14.5%)
  shooters (13.5%)
  family entertainment (9.5%)
  role-playing (8.7%)
  sports titles (5.8%)
  racing (4.4%)
  adventure (3.9%)
  simulation (3.5%)
  
  So, role-playing on a PC (which is about 1/3 of console market) being 9% equals about 3% of the console market.
  
  Really- I am not trying to tell you that RPGs suck, but I do want to put the facts out there that YES a lot of people do play sports games.
  
  --
  No reason to lie.
10. Re:Good riddance. by hal2814 · 2004-07-27 07:22 · Score: 1
  
  Development houses, video game distributors, and stores that sell video games (not the salesmen so much as the upper management) all love snotty gamers as long as they have money.
Hmm by obeythefist · 2004-07-26 20:31 · Score: 2, Interesting

I thought console games didn't have any bugs?

Although it is fortunate that the problem can be fixed on the server end.

I know serious bugs occur with PC games. As the code becomes more complex, so the risk of bugginess increases. PC games can be patched easily however.

Console games are beginning to come close to PC games in terms of complexity, with the next generation of consoles around the corner now, so what will happen when a serious bug is found in a console game, that can't be fixed on the server side?

--
I am government man, come from the government. The government has sent me. -- G.I.R.
1. Re:Hmm by dammitallgoodnamesgo · 2004-07-26 20:43 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  There have been showstopper bugs dating back to the SNES days - several RPGs had bugs which could cause your save-games to be deleted.
2. Re:Hmm by cluke · 2004-07-26 23:07 · Score: 1
  
  The reason console games are (or should) be less buggy is that they use standardised hardware.
  PCs have all the testing problems you would expect from all those different set-ups, but instead of using patches as a last resort, they seem to be used an excuse to launch an unfinished game early to get the revenue stream moving.
3. Re:Hmm by HaloZero · 2004-07-27 02:30 · Score: 1
  
  The SNES/64 bugs in RPGs such as Zelda, Perfect Dark, etc, relating to a loss-of-savegame-information issue were more or less because of bad batteries or bad printed circuit boards inside the game themselves, not bad programming.
  
  --
  Informatus Technologicus
4. Re:Hmm by dammitallgoodnamesgo · 2004-07-27 03:27 · Score: 1
  
  Star Ocean for SNES had a nasty bug - an actual programming bug. Then again Star Ocean II for PSX had some nasty bugs, and Star Ocean III for PS2 had to have the first edition pressing recalled for some emergency bug-fixes. Oh, and PAL Metropolis Street Racer was broken - you couldn't get enough points to unlock every secret.
5. Re:Hmm by da_real_mc · 2004-07-27 10:04 · Score: 1
  
  Another reason why they are is that console games have to be approved by the console-maker before it is sent for mass duplication.
  
  Once game X leaves [insert third-party publisher name here]'s Quality Assurance department, it is immediately sent to [insert console maker regional section name here]. Even if the third party publisher thinks the game is ready, the console-maker can refuse it for a bunch of reasons, including it being "too buggy".
  
  Obviously, as money is always implied, some console-makers are more "flexible" than others are when it comes to negotiating bugs.
  
  From past experience, Microsoft is known as a strainer, Nintendo is OK, and Sony (especially SCEJ) is pretty strict and ultra-professional. It always depends on how bad the console-maker needs your game in its line-up for Christmas.
6. Re:Hmm by Stormwatch · 2004-07-27 15:13 · Score: 1
  
  Another bug on Metropolis Street Racer --- remember how the levels were supposed to reflect the actual time, according to the console's internal clock and the time zones? Well, it was night about all the time in Tokyo. Argh.
  
  Anyone knows if it was corrected for the USA release?
  
  --
  Circumcision is child abuse.
solid game by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-26 20:35 · Score: 0

this game is only 20 bux and has every bit of top notch playability, gfx, depth as just about any game I've played. It's not that this is some really nice "sports" game. This is just a flat out good game period.
Sigh by DaveJay · 2004-07-26 21:15 · Score: 2, Insightful

And so, one of the best things about colsoles -- inability to update on the fly, necessitating stronger quality control before release -- falls to the wayside. Bluh.
1. Re:Sigh by cassidyc · 2004-07-26 21:32 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  xbox + live + harddrive = patchable games
  
  but that is no excuse, it's not like you are having to deal with hardware/config issues here
  
  CJC
2. Re:Sigh by Farmer+Jimbo · 2004-07-27 01:30 · Score: 1
  
  I thought MS had strictly forbidden XBox live to be used for bug fixes, only content updates.
3. Re:Sigh by HaloZero · 2004-07-27 02:27 · Score: 1
  
  One of my long-standing favorite requirements with console games - relatively high quality. Seems like that's gone to the dogs, though. It's sad, it really really is.
  
  Latest game I've been playing, though, Front Mission 4 - no bugs as of yet. I'll just keep at that one.
  
  --
  Informatus Technologicus
4. Re:Sigh by joggle · 2004-07-27 08:19 · Score: 1
  
  I think the error is server-side, not client side so there isn't a need for a distributable patch. (On a side note, it seems they use the Live service to patch Live often enough.)
not sure about this trend by h0mer · 2004-07-27 00:22 · Score: 2, Insightful

I'm having a lot of trouble deciding whether patching console games is a good thing. In fact, I'm sure it totally depends on the developer. Case in point:

Ex. 1) Ninja Gaiden Hurricane Pack. This is awesome. New stuff that makes an already great game better. Some armchair critics will say that this stuff (especially the camera) should have been in the game in the first place. The fact is, even if Team Ninja never released this patch then Ninja Gaiden would still be one of the best games on Xbox.

Ex. 2) NFL 2k5. Bugs that interfere with normal usage are unacceptable. I don't want to get home from EB and find out that my new game crashes if I try to enter the second level with a crossbow equipped. This would be a step closer to PC gaming, of which I want no part of. Except for Doom 3.

--

I'm on top of my game like I'm standin' on Xbox.
1. Re:not sure about this trend by DJayC · 2004-07-27 01:45 · Score: 2, Funny
  
  Ex. 2) NFL 2k5. Bugs that interfere with normal usage are unacceptable. I don't want to get home from EB and find out that my new game crashes if I try to enter the second level with a crossbow equipped.
  
  Crossbow?? No no, you are thinking of XFL 2k5...
2. Re:not sure about this trend by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-27 02:16 · Score: 0
  
  Ex. 2) NFL 2k5. Bugs that interfere with normal usage are unacceptable.
  
  If the only issues are on the server side for online play does that count as 'normal usage'? It sounds like the game itself works fine...just playing online is a little troublesome right now. Which isn't surprising. Seems like a good majority of games have problems with their online components. NCAA Football 2005 for the Xbox had problems with online play when it was first released. I'm sure Madden will run into some issues as well.
3. Re:not sure about this trend by DeadScreenSky · 2004-07-27 02:31 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  Some armchair critics will say that this stuff (especially the camera) should have been in the game in the first place.
  
  Early reports (such as at IGN) are stating that the new camera, surprise surprise, is essentially useless in combat. It apparently mostly helps in the adventure sequences (ie finding stuff in the environment). I wonder if Team Ninja is just including this camera to show certain people "See, a full control camera you havet constantly fiddle with in a fast action game like Ninja Gaiden sucks!"
  
  So I think it is pretty safe to not call it a patch, IMO. Only a week or so until we can all try it and find out.
  
  (And for the record, I have been playing the new ESPN NFL for close to twenty hours now, with no major bugs whatsoever. There are some definite interface and commentary quirks, but the gameplay has been perfectly solid. Would love for these bugs not to be there, but this game is easily one of the more complicated games around, so I can cut Visual Concepts some slack.)
  
  --
  There is no excellent beauty that hath not some strangeness in the proportion. -- Francis Bacon
4. Re:not sure about this trend by SkyWalk423 · 2004-07-27 08:02 · Score: 1
  
  And in football they are called quarters, not levels.
  *sigh* Nerds....
more of the same by Acidic_Diarrhea · 2004-07-27 01:56 · Score: 0

This doesn't surprise me much. I own both ESPN Baseball and ESPN Basketball and the online component is simply awful. The servers are slow, the login process is tedious, and [probably because of these two problems] no one is ever online to play. Contrast that to Tiger Woods 2004 and Madden 2004 where the servers are very fast, people are abundant, and logging in can take as little as 10-15 seconds.
My disappointment with the online components of previous Sega games led me not to purchase NFL 2K5 and wait for Madden.

--
I hate liberals. If you are a liberal, do not reply.
1. Re:more of the same by Rethcir · 2004-07-27 02:43 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  I recently purchased NFL 2K5 for xbox.. the first football game I've actually purchased (and I've been playing games since the NES, just never really that interested in football till recently) and I am very, very impressed. The presentation is extremely nice (The "watch sportcenter" and halftime/after game reports are extremely well done and also useful, and the in-game animation and gfx are simply astounding), and I have yet to experience any bugs in the actual gameplay.
  All in all, this game compares favorably to Madden 2k4, which i rented recently, especially to someone like me who isn't as familiar with football or football games (which seem to rival flight sims in terms of sheer number of buttons, and RTS's in terms of strategy and coordination of actions) as many. I can understand someone being faithful to the Madden franchise however due to its storied history.
  The only complaint i really have is that the trading stuff seems to be needlessly confusing.. I can't figure out how to find free agents for example, and it's hard to quickly check out the stats of players on other teams' trading blocks.
  Granted, I haven't taken it online yet, not being a Live subscriber (although it did come with a "2 month free trial" of some sort.. i gotta try and figure out if it really is free or what). It'll be interesting to see if they remove Ricky Williams, and how it will affect my Patriots franchise!
2. Re:more of the same by Anixamander · 2004-07-27 03:33 · Score: 1
  
  I can't figure out how to find free agents for example, and it's hard to quickly check out the stats of players on other teams' trading blocks.
  
  In the team roster page, the very first "team" that you scroll through (with the black and white buttons on the xbox, I believe) is free agents. Took me a while to find it too. That is also where your created players show up. Of course once you assign them to a team, make sure you update the depth chart, as I don't think the game does that.
  
  --
  Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball(TM)
3. Re:more of the same by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-28 03:29 · Score: 0
  
  go to the Front Office, and then to Contracts, use the white/black buttons to scroll the team selection to Free Agents.
  
  Personally I'm still trying to learn how the salary cap works (salary vs bonus). Kansas City has some prime time players at the end of their contracts this year and I'm gonna need to resign!
wow, nice policy Xbox by 88NoSoup4U88 · 2004-07-27 02:13 · Score: 1

i thought developers weren't allowed to update their games, to at least garner some quality control...
Guess now Thief 3 and this game are down the road of patches : What's next ?
1. Re:wow, nice policy Xbox by Niobium-41 · 2004-07-27 03:24 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  Game developers are not allowed to patch games via Xbox live unless the update fixes a problem related to Online play. The problem with ESPN 2K5 clearly meets this requirement.
  
  Theif 3 will not be patched because the AI bug does not effect online play. (besides the fact that Theif 3 is not a Live enabled title in the first place)
2. Re:wow, nice policy Xbox by obeythefist · 2004-07-27 13:51 · Score: 1
  
  I'm pretty sure it's patched on PC though.
  
  I wonder if Microsoft is preventing this because it would open the floodgates on lower quality testing on Console games - up until now, the only real advantage that consoles have over PC's.
  
  --
  I am government man, come from the government. The government has sent me. -- G.I.R.
AI Issues by warnerve · 2004-07-27 03:33 · Score: 1

Can anyone tell me what AI issues are being talked about? The only thing I've noticed so far is a defensive lineman able to run right by an offensive lineman about once a game for a sack when he should have been blocked. The commentary is a bit screwy every now and then but that isn't AI related really.
1. Re:AI Issues by hal2814 · 2004-07-27 07:20 · Score: 1
  
  That sounds like typical AI issues in football games where the developer is not smart enough to program a good AI (especially for linemen it seems) so the linemen "cheat" to get statistical results similar to that of a real football game.
  
  I have always wanted to find a football game where the difficulty setting makes the computer AI smarter rather than making the computer players more talented or more of a "cheater" (ex. playing Amateur difficulty puts you against a Jerry Glanville or a Dennis Ericson while Pro difficulty puts you against a Tom Landry or a Bill Walsh), but I have yet to see anything even close so until then we can expect to see more of the AI issues you mention.
League Problems by DeionXxX · 2004-07-27 04:42 · Score: 1

They had league problems last night. As in it took forever to download the leagues and usually it'd just time out and say it was incapable of getting the leagues.

I really with they'd let you play Franchise mode onilne. Where 2 players are able to have their own teams inside a Franchise like on Madden 2004.

Its a good game though, I've already played like 10+ games in 4 days.

-- Alex
Bugs by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-27 07:07 · Score: 1, Interesting

I've only noticed 1 quirky bug, when the other team challenged a play during the challenge the play clock ran out. The play was overturned on the challenge and on top of that I got nailed with a delay of game; that shouldn't happen.
NFL 2k5 is a bug ridden nightmare... by yunfat · 2004-07-27 07:32 · Score: 2, Interesting

There are so many issues with this years 2k5 that the ESPN forums are crawling with bug reports and angry gamers. Never have I seen such dissatisfaction with a console game of any type...

The developer, Visual Concepts, refuses to acknowledge many of the reports and has only acted now out fear and liability.

More disheartening is the fact that almost all the online reviews for the game made no mention of the bug filled mess that is online play. NFL 2k5 recieved almost perfect rankings from most of the magazines I read, leading me to beleive that most review sites do little, if any homework on the games they review.

Also, no mention was ever made of the features removed from the game that were present in last years version. Chat capability and the ability to change playbooks have been REMOVED from this years game, yet the developers chose to add useless features for marketing and hype that detracted from 2k4's flawless gameplay.

This is clearly the last year for the ESPN videogames. It's unfortunate, but they don't have the resources to compete with EA. They can't even playtest their games.

--
"Smokey, this isn't Nam, there are rules." -Walter
1. Re:NFL 2k5 is a bug ridden nightmare... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-27 19:55 · Score: 0
  
  Not the first time, when VC was still making games for the GC, they released the crash prone NBA 2K3 and never acknowledged it. (the game would crash quite frequently on a whistle)
Nothing new here. by DarkGamer20X6 · 2004-07-27 08:01 · Score: 2, Funny

"Currently, users must reset their Xbox if they initiate or receive four or more challenges if they wish to send or receive game invites."

That's not a bug in your game; that's merely a feature of using a Microsoft platform.
Re: The top selling game in North America... by twootwoot · 2004-07-27 10:14 · Score: 1

was a sports game, too. Wikipedia's NPD North American video game sales chart. 1. Madden NFL 2004, Electronic Arts, PS2 In addition, the first half of 2004 video games sales are mostly sports video games. 1. Fight Night 2004, Electronic Arts, PS2 2. NBA Ballers, Midway, PS2 3. Fight Night 2004, Electronic Arts, Xbox 4. MVP Baseball 2004, Electronic Arts, PS2 People actually do care about sports game in North America. Just like soccer/"football" games like WInning Eleven is really popular in Europe and Asia.
custom music by SalMoriarty · 2004-07-29 22:05 · Score: 1

in the instruction book for the ps2 version of nfl 2k5, it says that you can add your own music. after searching high and low through the game, i can't find that feature anywhere.

does anybody know the reasoning behind this or are they just making us ps2 hdd owners feel bad about our purchase?