Tech Support Levels Dropping

NeoPrime writes "USA Today is reporting on the growing concern of the language barrier, when it comes to tech support. It appears that each year it is becoming more compelling to companies to reconsider the use of overseas help desks. According to this story, based '[o]n a 10-point scale, the average level rated by desktop owners dropped from 7.0 in 2003 to 6.3 this year; notebooks fell from 7.2 to 6.1.'"

Comments

Marketing Dweeb Double Speak

[CaptainZapp]

Sony's general manager of Vaio Service Operations, Steven Nickel, says the company has recently changed support partners who "weren't meeting stringent requirements." And managers who monitor live calls remotely from support headquarters in Fort Myers, Fla., can now intervene in a case as necessary, via instant messages.

Wow! Could it be that Mr. Nickel is speaking with a forked tongue? I can't speak for Sony worldwide, but the domestic support organisation has an image which is somewhere between SCO and Rambus.

Case in point: A friend of mine bought a VAIO, which never really worked. After the third repair attempt he got it back with a hole in the case, requiring a nasty letter from his lawyer until they finally reimbursed him. That was after accusing him of breaking it himself.

Does Mr. Nickel mean they changed their service model from driving a screwdriver through the computer to let it splatter on concrete from the 5th floor or wot?

Re:Marketing Dweeb Double Speak

[Emil Brink]

Just as a counter-point, I own a Sony DSC-P1 digital camera. I bought it at Fry's on a business trip to Califoria back in 2001.

During subsequent years, the camera (or its battery) developed a problem; it wouldn't "hold a charge", but would instead signal being fully charged, and then drop to empty/no charge from mere minutes of use. It was useless.

I surfed around, and one day I found this note about the problem. It's on a (as far as I know, I'm not a regular) US site, and I'm in Sweden with a camera bought three years ago in a diferent country, and without any warranty cards or anything sent in.

I thought "what the heck", and e-mailed Sony about it. That's right, I just wrote a question to "info@sony.se", describing my situation and linking to the above page (or maybe Sony's page about the problem, which seems to be gone now). Writing to a general "info" address of a major multinational felt almost silly, in an "of course I won't get a reply" kind of way. But, what can I say; I got a reply within 24 hours! It was from their service representatives here, asking me to send the camera to them, including all accessories. No questions asked.

I did so, and in one week I got it back, with a new battery (that's a $50 value right there, approximately), new charger, a replaced power port in the camera body, and upgraded firmware. The cost to me was the postage to get the camera to the service techs, approx $8 or so.

So, I guess my point is that Sony are surely capable of excellent service, too!

Free Market Capitalism

[SirStanley]

The curse of free markets is that things like Out sourcing can happen, taking american jobs away. However, the market has ways of resolving things it self. You take a relatively minimaly skilled job like Tech support, ship it over seas to even cheaper labor and you get your ass bitten.

What has happened here is the market provided a cheaper means, but at a cost (Customer satisfication) so hopefully, companies will fix this problem by moving these jobs back to where ever they originally were.

Re:Free Market Capitalism

[PainKilleR-CE]

Why is it ok to import sneakers and t-shirts from cheap Phillipine workers and importing "office jobs" is not?

Not to mention things like ketchup...
Anyway, the reason it becomes an issue here is because a good number of people that sit at their desk reading Slashdot all day are tech support people. The jobs have the same level of turnover and pay roughly the same in the US, but some people still prefer a shitty low-paying job at a desk to a shitty low-paying job behind a counter or stove, and almost all people would prefer a shitty low-paying job behind a desk to looking for a new job with that shitty low-paying job on their resume.

Re:Free Market Capitalism

[sjames]

Why is it specifically a `curse' that Americans lose jobs? Those jobs mean people in a much poorer country can finally make a living.

It's a curse for anybody to lose a job.

I certainly agree that the pollution and exploitation represent the worst end of the spectrum.

The fundamental problem with all outsourcing though happens when the country exporting the labor is still not able to develop the local economy. Example, people in india get good jobs programming or doing tech support for U.S. companies. These workers now want the various trappings of geek life and can now afford them. So, they buy all of that from Asia and the U.S. Oops, there goes the local economy. At the same time, their pay has no hope of scaling to the point where those goods have the same real cost to them as they do in the U.S. since as soon as their pay gets to that point, the outsourcing will shift somewhere else, leaving a country full of highly skilled workers who can't find work.

If India really wants to build it's economy on tech, local companies will need to start producing tech with the costs and prices scaled to the local economy. Anything else is just ba dotcom style bubble that is sure to burst just when things start looking really good.

All that said, that doesn't mean the outsourcing is actually BAD for India, it COULD provide the tempory boost needed to bootstrap the local economy. Of course, as soon as that process starts, U.S. corps will try to pull a quick switch and outsource elsewhere before they accidentally fund the company that will later eat their lunch.

Re:Free Market Capitalism

[jlusk4]

The new geeks in India aren't *just* buying their electronics from Asia.

Presumably, they dine out more often.

Or, they hire cooks, maids, drivers.

They buy nicer and more clothes, which, even if not manufactured locally, are delivered by local truckers and stevedores and sold by people working in retail outlets.

They build bigger houses and pay more taxes.

Presumably, they give more to charity (based on what I've heard about lower-income and formerly-lower-income people in the U.S. tending to give more to charity than upper-income folks, as a percentage of income).

And, when their countries threaten nuclear war w/each other, the big multinationals call 'em up and say "Friends, we're going to have find another back office if you're going to do that."

So, we're exporting jobs, opportunity, world peace, hope, Mom and apple pie. Who could argue with that? Think of the children!

Ok, so I got progressively more sarcastic in the preceding paragraph, but seriously.... It's like giving blood. You lose some, the other party gets what they need.

That's not to say it isn't painful. And it is sure irritating when you see those gains go into some corrupt person's pocket. But you have to hope humans' universal desire for justice will eventually prevail (and corruption will be eliminated), as more and more countries get with the "civilized society" program. (I equate civilization with compassion, not just politely ripping somebody off.)

Here's another angle on corruption, from the economic point of view: it's friction, isn't it? Businesses would prefer not to pay bribes, I bet. Or rather, they'd prefer to keep their expenses predictable, and not greater than their competitor's expenses (i.e., some semblance of "fair").

So, I think the question is not "how can we stop this?" but rather "how can we help this along, so things become fair more quickly?"

Is it better to say "you can't have our jobs until your environment is clean" or is it better to say "here, have some jobs; now please take your new money and spend some of it on cleaning up your environment and implementing new laws"?

Gee, I hope this wasn't a page of nothing. Sorry if it was.

John.

Your name please?

[ejdmoo]

"Frank"

"OK, Frank, how do you spell that?"

Gah!

Phonetic alphabet

[Skiron]

Too true - when the hardware support at my firm (UK) moved to Sri Lanka, everybody was advised to use the phonetic alphabet when making helpdesk calls - it really it a mess with these of-shore support desks for communication.

Spend like 10 minutes explaining who you are.

Re:Why use tech support?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm guessing that the kind of people who read USA Today really *really* need manuals and tech support.

And illustrations.

And GUIs.

And they probably love Clippy, too.

"Ooh! Look! My little paperclip friend is back! Brandy, come look! Say 'hi', Clippy!"

"Oh, cuuuuuuute!"

Maybe this will provide the motivation

[antifoidulus]

to put some money into automation, which is probably where most tech support is going to be in 10 years anyway. Outsourcing "hid" the costs for a while, but as the service levels fall(the service was probably initially good because only the best were doing it, once everyone else jumped on the bandwagon, then it started to fall) and costs increase, companies are going to look to new ways to save money, and it probably won't be by hiring Americans.

Re:Capitalism

[swordboy]

I'll tell you what:

I work for a large corporation and we made a big deal out of the language barrier and complete ineptitude of some of the people on the other end of the phone. Now, we've renewed all of our support and paid extra for the premium level of service. HP/Compaq's call center is in Canada somewhere and IBM's call center actually announces itself on the phone menu:

You're call is now being routed to our support center in Atlanta, Georgia.

If enough consumers made a stink about it, tech support wouldn't be in India for them. Come to think of it, if one of the big PC vendors wanted to get a leg up on the competition, they could advertise "English speaking tech support" as the number one feature of their PCs. They'd be sold out in no time.

I don't use tech support often, but

[robslimo]

the average person in the workforce is being required more and more to use computers (and similar technologies) in their work (students also). An earlier (down-modded as troll and rightly so) post said "don't buy software if you don't know how to use it." On the off chance that the poster was serious, please consider those who have little or no choice.

Back to me... I said I don't use tech support much, but my few experiences are mixed. On Aug 9, I wanted to know the exact date that I could expect XP SP2 to hit my lab PCs via AutoUpdates, so I called MS tech support. I talked to a lady who said (in a confident manner), "today!" Well, she was off by a couple of weeks. As usual with support issues, I found better information on the web.

Eh, it's a trade off.

[garcia]

You take a relatively minimaly skilled job like Tech support, ship it over seas to even cheaper labor and you get your ass bitten.

Eh, I worked in tech support. The English native speakers are equally as worthless as those that are ESL overseas workers. It's basically a trade off for the most part.

From my personal experience the ESL workers have more technical experience and end up being able to do something for you even if it takes longer for you to get your point across. The native English speakers suck at understanding your point AND they suck at the technical side of things.

$9.00/hr jobs with shitty benefits (if any at all) to put up w/raving assholes bitching at you because your Internet connection is down isn't worth it for most people that have a clue (unless they are college students that need a flexible schedule).

and it's not just the language barrier

[katdesign]

There's a cultural one too. Depending on the problem, users will expect empathy from the other side. With cultural differences, that gets harder. As a European, I've had to call a few US helpdesks in the past, and it's just not the same. You'd expect it to be ok, but i guess Americans just have a different method of social interaction than us Europeans.

Ugly Americans

[ForestStryfe]

"The only way to break through is to throw a tantrum and become an 'ugly American."

I couldn't agree more. I had problems with Earthlink a few months ago after a bad storm had gone through - our DSL was down for most of the day, but I couldn't get a tech to give me a straight answer to my simple question. Eventually, I argued my way to a manager, who still refused to give me a straight answer. By the time I was done, they had lost their "american" accents and were more angry with me than I was with them. We tried calling customer service to get a complaint filed, only to find that the techs I had spoken with never logged any of the calls like they were supposed to, so it was impossible to even attempt to get a free month out of them.

I find that a lot of problems stem from the fact that they refuse to deviate from the scripts that they're given - and won't believe you (with good reason - I know I don't usually believe the useres that I work with) that you've tried all of that already.

Re:Ugly Americans

[Laebshade]

We tried calling customer service to get a complaint filed, only to find that the techs I had spoken with never logged any of the calls

And this is why, my friends, that you always get the name, extension, and possibly company ID # to whomever you talk to.

Language is a stupid way to communicate

[Anonymous Coward]

There's really two issues here, that are both somewhat addressed in the article:

1) Americans speak their own brand of English that's incomprehensible to most of the rest of the world, and vice versa. That goes double for anybody with a regional accent. If I can't understand Mississippian, what chance does somebody from India have?

2) There's a definite technical language gap, irrespective of dialect. Trying to figure out what's actually wrong is usually 90% of handling a call. Your typical electronics consumer only knows that this doohickey isn't doing what he wants it to do.

The dialect-related problems can be solved by having regional call centers, but the technical language gap is a bigger and longer-term problem. As the article says, "We're not going to give you a crash-course in Excel over the phone"... but if the consumer won't give it to himself, he's going to blame the product, the vendor, or the support staff when it doesn't do what he thinks it should.

Re:Sorry but I have no sympathy for this guy

[Skiron]

I am in Pompey, England. I regularly deal with people in Montreal CA and East Hartford USA - big problem - with my English accent and the speed I speak, they just can't understand me - no matter how I try to speak.

The usual fix normally ends up as an E-Mail.

Watching "The Simpsons" finally pays off.

[Chatmag]

After listening to Apu on "The Simpsons" all these years, I don't have any problem understanding tech support.

More dumb users

[nuggz]

Tech support is expensive.
Users are getting dumber and calling tech support for things they shouldn't.

Ever hear of someone calling their ISP to help them clear disk space to install the ISP software?
They can just hang up (frustrated customer)
Or they can help the customer, this is expensive, so get a lower level cheaper tech to do it.

That being said I rarely call tech support for anything other then my ISP is broken. Even then I've just about given up, when I telnet to the smtp port on my mailserver and it replies with an error message, they want me to reboot my computer.

getting paid to call hell

[Alien54]

I have actually been paid cold hard cash at my usual computer onsite repair rates to call a tech support line for a company whose name shall remain undisclosed and which rhymes with hell. Not just to sort things out since the unit was under warranty and my customer just could not under the accents on the other side, but to put the people on the other end of the line through some torture as well. The people were well pleased with the value of the entertainment they received. I say, with tongue only slightly in cheek, that I may consider this a whole new line of business.

The company may be "saving money" by paying the people one fifth of what stateside would get, but I can say with confidence that the call took ten times longer than it would have if someone with competant computer knowledge was on the line. Rote reading from of a incomplete trouble shooting guide does not replace expert knowledge. The worse thing you can do to those folks is to follow there directions literally and exactly.

Re:getting paid to call hell

[analog_line]

I completely concur. Right now I do work as a hourly computer consultant (or "tech support for hire" as I like to call it) and I charge full hourly rate for all time on the phone to the useless tech support people, which only really happens with Internet stuff generally, as I generally build all the machines my clients use myself.

We do no advertising, and even then we have more work than we can handle sometimes, just through word of mouth. Personally, I hope computer stuff gets more and more compliacted and touchy, because that means more money for me. Plumbers make a damn good living, and I don't see why I don't stand to do much the same, seeing as the plumbing I work on is way more complex and far more prone to break down.

Re:getting paid to call hell

[Jedi Alec]

so there you were, thinking yourself really tough, making fun of some poor sod in an out-source callcenter who never quite got the training from the not-to-be-named company to really do the job well, who can do absolutely nothing but follow a couple of silly script lines and who gets paid shit to swallow yours? bravo!

Re:getting paid to call hell

[qwijibo]

Plumbing is just a different discipline. The goal of plumbing is to get the crap out of your building. You really don't care what happens once it gets out of your building. That's someone else's problem.

IT is about bringing some crap into your building while keeping other crap out. Calculated crap management is what makes IT a science.

Re:getting paid to call hell

[twbecker]

While I agree that the language barrier can only hurt tech support, I think people have forgotten how bad it was even when it was onshore. The salaries were still pretty low and the skill level of the support people reflected that. Think about it, tech support horror stories have been around much longer than the off-shoring trend. The fact that they're in India now just adds insult to injury.

Re:getting paid to call hell

[dasmegabyte]

Which is why offshoring seems so good to many companies. If you're resigned to having shitty support, you may as well pay LESS for it.

Incidentally, I've never had a better time of support than with my Apple gear. They always are cordial and knowledgable on the phone, they BELIEVE you when you say it's busted, they arrange all the pickup and delivery with a 5 day turnaround...and remember that battery recall from last week? I got mine the next day. Orderered after 4 on thursday, battery was on the porch when I got home. Could not believe it.

Dis me for paying $300 over the cost of a comparably sized and priced Acer if you want. But it's been worth it already in headaches averted -- and I have two and a half more years of this stuff!

Re:getting paid to call hell

[greatone]

no my father always told me there are 5 rules to plumbing.

1. Shit goes down
2. Air goes up
3. Hot on the left
4. Cold on the right.
5. Payday's Tuesday

Re:getting paid to call hell

[jonnystiph]

so there you were, thinking yourself really tough, making fun of some poor sod in an out-source callcenter who never quite got the training from the not-to-be-named company to really do the job well, who can do absolutely nothing but follow a couple of silly script lines and who gets paid shit to swallow yours? bravo!

Bravo yourself! Not in the sarcastic context either. I am so glad that someone brought this up. Call centers are crap. Tech support is hard work, espicially over the phone, and espicially considering these are entry level tech jobs. How many people have worked a Tier 1 phone support job and had a fair-good understanding of correct T-shooting techniques of computers.

Now, I am a unix admin. At one time not too many years ago, I was that asshole on Tier-1 support that knew enough about customer service to keep you from hating the company, but not nearly enough about your computer to keep you hating me. Please people, these are just people that need to keep a job, just like anyone else. Yes, you know more than them, big fucking deal. There are plenty of people out there that know more than you. That and there are plenty of people that could turn your body into pulpy mass, but hopefully they don't. There are laws against physically abusing someone, but none to protect from mental abuse. This job is hard enough, let them and thier shoddy training be, ask to be esecalated, chances are you can and will be.

just my $.02

Documentation from hell

[Vo0k]

People who work at User Support, and especially people writing manuals should be FORCED to use software (general) in language version they support.

I got a CAM program with translation to English. The problem is the translator apparently never used any english program himself, learnt english at school and never had to use it really before the translation. Examples? (with my translations)

Secure Tool - save the tool set to a file.
Save Under
Programme End
Displace - move
Edit Row - (the only way to enter text into project)
Demark - unselect
Adjust position - move point
Size line - measure distance
Clearance - material to be removed by the CNC

No, the program is not an after-hours shareware. It's a multi-thousand-dollar commercial software, a flagship product of the company that makes it. And no, it's not really crappy. The backend is marvelous. It's the frontend and translations that really suck.

Re:Sorry but I have no sympathy for this guy

[MBaldelli]

you should always speak in the most clear and correct way when making a non-personal phone call, including additional redundancy e.g. "A for apple".

Uhhh, On Monday, I tried my best to speak with as little slang, and as little of an accent as I could, and I still couldn't make myself clear to Ghumpta in New Delhi, because that's where Dell happened to have moved their support to. It too me having to make Ghumpta repeat himself six times in order to make heads and tails of what he was trying to tell me.

It also took Herculean efforts on my part not to blow up on his sorry ass when he told me something that was clearly a lie.

Comanpies are seeing a fall in profits and interests in their products? Good! Put localized support that can speak basically the same language, instead of looking for the cheapest way to piss off your customer base.

Re:Sorry but I have no sympathy for this guy

[The Ultimate Fartkno]

> it'd be like someone from London speaking cockney rhyming slang and expecting that to be understood

Heh. Cockney rhyming tech support.

"What? No, no, I don't *have* a Mac, I have a PC! What? NO! I have *one* broken *Windows* computer! Why do you keep talking about Apples in pairs? And no, I do *not* think this should be lemon squeezy! Give me your manager! No, dammit! Not the *governor!* GAAAAAH!" /sound of quiet sobbing in the background.

Waiting Game

[Baldrson]

What I've found, especially with Dell, is that the primary function of over-seas telephone support is to burn up man hours. Since man hours are less costly over there than here, it is cheap to get a client to simply hang up, thereby implicitly abrogating their part of the agreement and implicitly waiving their right to support.

Its gotten so bad that I recommend people purchase generic computers rather than suffer the abuse of major name brand computers.

Re:Capitalism

[qwijibo]

The job of tech support is to get the customer off the phone in the shortest period of time. The ones providing tech support bill based on number of calls.

How many call centers track the resolution of the issues and customer satisfaction? I would guess it's a very small percentage. Customer satisfaction is the antithesis of the purpose the tech support is there to provide. The reason that good customer service is so hard to find is that people who convince the customer all is lost and they should give up in 2 minutes are promoted. On the other hand, the person who can solve most problems, but has a 10 minute average call time will be reprimanded by management for not handling their share of calls.

Customer service is an expense to the company providing it. When the company already has your money, what is the incentive to spend more of their money on providing better service? Very few companies care about providing good service. They just have to provide a level of service that's not noticeably worse than the competition.

Is it really the offshoring?

[nial-in-a-box]

Frankly, I don't think that any company that supports Windows XP based PCs could possibly offer a satisfactory level of technical support. I am currently providing technical support on a college campus during move-in and what I am seeing nearly has me in tears. Malware was just starting to become critical during last year's move-in, but this time around it is simply shocking. I have seen countless brand new computers that are already impossibly crippled.

What upsets me so much about this is not that Microsoft sucks at writing secure, reliable software but rather that there are so many people that are so willing to exploit it. Considering how many unique exploits there are on Windows XP, I feel that regardless of secure we think that Linux or BSD or Mac OS X may be, that if they had the dominant market share in their current state there would also be a large number of malware apps running wild on those platforms.

When you consider that it takes a significant amount of time to diagnose and resolve malware issues properly over the telephone, it immediately becomes impossible to offer good technical support. Sure, there are other key issues, such as outright hardware failure, but when malware is slowing down the machine average call time automatically increases. So unless your policy is to shaft users (and their data) and tell them to reformat/reinstall/use the restore CD right off the bat, or you are willing to pay what it really takes to have enough reps to help your customers, then there is absolutely no way to provide satisfactory technical support. Not in California, not in Canada, not in India.

again he misses the point though...

[CiXeL]

I can compete with foreign workers (i work my ass off), i just can't compete with the increasing industry-wide pay cut that has resulted where now I suddenly cannot afford to pay for existing debts that I could afford previously.

I'm already making plans for my girlfriend and I to move out of california now since it's just too expensive and there are increasingly less and less tech jobs here.

The division seems to be between people who own a home and those who don't. Everyone I see who doesn't own a home here already is struggling and the ones who do are taking vacations. I've pulled out my savings to go on 'vacation' to the east coast to look for work.

Re:again he misses the point though...

[PainKilleR-CE]

I'm already making plans for my girlfriend and I to move out of california now since it's just too expensive and there are increasingly less and less tech jobs here.

Believe me, you'll be happy you did, and not because there are any more tech jobs outside of California than in (though there may be because companies are leaving CA for the same reason people do). Instead, it will simply be because you can actually afford to live on the same (or lesser) pay. At least, as long as you don't move to New York or somewhere with a similarly high cost of living.

The division seems to be between people who own a home and those who don't. Everyone I see who doesn't own a home here already is struggling and the ones who do are taking vacations. I've pulled out my savings to go on 'vacation' to the east coast to look for work.

This is simply because those that own a home either bought at a lower price than is currently demanded, or can actually afford a home at current prices. Even those with homes are often taking out 2nds on their home to live their lives and take their vacations.

Before I left California the paper had a front-page story on a Habitat for Humanity house that was selling for $250K to a qualified low-income buyer, and housing prices have continued to go up since then. For $250K in some areas around here (Hampton Roads, VA) I can have a very nice house on a substantial piece of land, or a nice house on a smaller piece of land (depending on how close I want to be to work, basically; and that smaller piece of land is bigger than anything in a CA suburb).

Problem from both sides.

[houghi]

I agree that language differences can result in some problems. It is also the expectancy of the customer that has changed.

Where a few years ago people who needed help were willing to do something themselves and were helping to find the solution, now customers just want it fixed. I am not saying that that is a bad thing. It just is a fact.

Imagine when a few years ago someone called an ISP and said that his internet was not responding, you could ask to open a DOS window and do a ping and as a rep get the resukts in about a minute. Now you need to explain how to do that with the customer moaning that he does not understand it and that it should just work.

I live in Belgium and Belgiun being a country with three languages, we understand perfectly what the situation is with language barriers. The Belgian-French is not the same as the French-French and Flemish is not the same as Dutch. The dialects that are spoken especialy in Flanders can be so different that the people from one side do not understand the people from the other side.

The willingness of BOTH parties will result in a solution. If however one does not want to work with the other, you have just created a unsolvable situation. I have heard people who called in from France to the call center in Belgium and did not want any help from a Belgian rep. I have heard Belgians not wanting to be helped by Dutch reps.

Luckily I myself am able to get support in 4 languages within several dialects, so for me personally the situation is non-existing.

It's the knowledge, not the accent.

[dpbsmith]

Most of my nontechnical acquaintances are savvy enough to select "help" from a menu or read the glossy "getting started" summary card packed at the top of the box. If Clippy has the answer for them, they don't call tech support.

The problem is not whether the person on the phone has a detectable accent or a professional demeanor. The problem is that for the last five years, tech support people, foreign or domestic have been human versions of Clippy. Only with fewer preprogrammed answers. The problem is that in so many cases they appear to be reading from a top forty FAQ sheet and cannot solve any problem that the average user can't solve themselves.

I'm happy with anyone who actually solves my problem, and I'll be most other customers are, too.

Re:It's the knowledge, not the accent.

[TGK]

The problem, as you so eloquently point out when you say "The problem is that in so many cases they appear to be reading from a top forty FAQ sheet and cannot solve any problem that the average user can't solve themselves," is that fully half of the users are dumber than that.

That means that fully half of the questions are answered by reading off that sheet. Now, if 1/2 of your job can be done for you by reading the appropriate line off of a piece of paper, aren't you going to read that line? More to the point, if you're paying someone to do a job that, about 1/2 the time can be done by reading a known solution off of a piece of paper, aren't you going to insist that they read that line first?

Sure, there are people out there with legitimate problems. They need legitimate solutions. If there was a way to filter the idiots out of the call queue so tech support could help the ones that actually need help (as opposed to the ones that need help reading) I'm sure they'd do it. As is, we're all at the mercy of the horde of vindictive idiots who insist that nothing can possibly be wrong with [insert product here] because it was working yesterday. Of course it was working yesterday; if it hadn't been working yesterday they'd have called in YESTERDAY. What changed? It broke! What's so hard to understand about this?

Tech support suffers because of marketing and feature envy. People want the newest, fastest, latest whiz-bang contraption out there. Even my mother, who hasn't the faintest clue how to perform even the most basic functions with a PC is talking about how great a tablet PC would be. We introduce more and more complex devices to people who have fundamentally no idea what they're doing with them and then are surprised when they can't make them work!

You don't buy a $4,000 amp for your first stereo. You don't buy a Ferrari Testerosa for your kid to learn to drive on. You don't teach a newly hired cook to make baked Alaska before he can make a grilled cheese sandwich. Why do we believe this doesn't hold up for computers?

IT support, admin and helpdesks, Bill's legacy

[alwynschoeman]

Every day I am amazed at the lack of skill and knowledge in IT personnel. 9 out of 10 of them should never have been a sys admin, programmer or support person.

I think Microsoft is largely to blame. When people leaving school suddenly awakened to the fact that you don't just get handed a well paying job, Microsoft were pushing MSCE, etc. on the technically challenged masses.

In the end only Microsoft gained. The masses eventually got paid less because of the laws of supply and demand, but still companies felt that they were bestowed with armies of skilled people certified 'smart' by Microsoft.

Actually the armies of idiots might be the one thing that gives Microsoft staying power in companies. Migrate to Linux? Unless you re-hire your whole IT department you are in big troubles.
At least your department will be much smaller.
If you cannot even manage something you are certified for, what about something that actually requires a brain. Now make that idiot a manager and it becomes impossible.

I must apologize for using 'idiot', its a relative thing. I am smart in technology, but an idiot when it comes to stuff like financial investment, legal matters, fixing cars, etc. See, no harm done.

Now helpdesk personnel need to be patient. Thats where the Filipino's shine, pleasant and patient, but not very smart on the technical stuff no matter what they tell themselves.

I guess its a catch 22, very few tech savvy people will work in a helpdesk. Maybe it will be the first true mass market for good AI?

Re:IT support, admin and helpdesks, Bill's legacy

[Mitleid]

How can you honestly say Microsoft is to blame for the sad state of the IT admin and tech support fields? It's not like Microsoft FORCED companies to accept their MSCEs; business owners and IT managers were the ones who figured it'd be a good idea to let a private company determine the education requirements for the IT employees. Micrsoft just rode the wave and laughed all the way to the bank.

The state of "mainstream" IT in the U.S. seems to be more systematic than anything. Business owners and their advisors have gotten it into their head that "official" certifications are what qualifies one for a position, not actual technical knowledge. It functions the same way as the U.S. education system; some of the DUMBEST people I've known were straight A students, but I'm sure with an educational record as "impressive" as a college degree and even graduate school (*shudder*) they'll have no trouble at all finding a job or getting into college/graduate school. Colleges are just making a killing by riding on the blind faith business managers give to college degrees. So is Microsoft. Don't blame them; blame your boss(es).

The basic problem with tech support

[Alioth]

The basic problem - the reason why tech support in general (especially from a large company) is almost certain to suck whether it's in India, Wales, the United States or even Texas - is that people who are clueful don't want to do technical support.

Tech support is generally a low-paid entry level job. Many people in tech support aren't there to make a career, they are there simply because they need some kind of job. (It always amused me when I was a teenager looking for entry-level jobs how it always said 'Why are you applying for a job at company X?' and you had to write some BS-filled 'go forward' corporate speak response on how the company is so wonderful, and how it'll be the start of a long career etc. when the genuine answer is simply 'because I need the money'.)

Generally, the people in tech support will not have a clue and don't care to have a clue; they just want to collect their paycheck. Those with a clue would never do tech support even if you doubled their salary because the job is utterly stultifying.

I have worked in a small call centre (12 positions). Fortunately, it *was not* tech support, but railway information. But even there we had the same problem: the job really demanded someone who knew geography well and had an interest in the railways, and the majority of people there just wanted a paycheck. Turnover was fast - it was rare that anyone stayed in the call centre for more than 6 months before leaving the company or finding a job somewhere else in the company. The trouble is there was quite a bit of knowledge you needed to do the job well thanks to the byzantine fare structure and the complex geography of the national railway network, and usually at 6 months the person was just getting competent and fast at doing the job - and they'd go and leave. I would imagine tech support isn't much different.

Dell? Are you listening?

[erroneus]

Dell sells clones. They aren't truly any better than any other PC out there. They make some pretty nice cases though.

That said, the ONE thing that made Dell better than the rest was their support. It did't take long before they realized that it was a BAD BUSINESS DECISION to move their corporate support overseas. They moved it back to the U.S. pretty quickly when companies started dumping Dell.

That said, it proves they are aware of the problems it causes -- this is not a surprise to them in the least. The message I get from that fast? They prefer to abuse their users when they think they can get away with it. If you're not a corporate user, they don't care about you. Simple right? They might try to deny it, but their actions speak the loudest.

Dont blame the Indians

[BobRooney]

Just because you can't understand someone on tech support doesn't necessarily mean they are an Indian, or other foreign-based call center. There are plenty of American Citizens with poor command of the English Language. I have had several people call me for various telemarketing reasons who could hardly read their script. I promptly laughed at them and hung up, but their accent was clearly an American one.

The problem has nothing to do with where call centers are located but rather who's doing the work on the phone with you. All good support personnel should be trained in "standard" American English to help avoid ambiguity, since everyone can understand the version of English you hear on the CNN or other standard media outlets, even if you dont' normally speak that way.

I myself work with customers on the phone and make a point of suppressing my slight New York accent and not using any slang that might not be clear.

It's difficult enough trying to bridge the gap between technical and non-technical people without a 2-way language barrier getting in the way. A support rep should be able to decipher people's accents, within reason and should be trained in speaking a relatively standard form of the language they are providing support in.

This doesn't just apply to English, but also Spanish. We have support rep where I work who is responsible for helping spanish speaking customers. When on the phone with a customer she speaks "standard" spanish that you would usually hear on Telemundo or Univision. There is a definite difference between the dialect she speaks on the phone and what she uses when she's on the phone with her husband for example.

Re:Sorry but I have no sympathy for this guy

[sharkey]

wtf is Alabama English?

Lahf is lahk a box a choc'lates, you nevva know whut you gonna git.

I called hell not too long ago myself.

[SatanicPuppy]

Funny story.

I inherited an "hINSPERON" laptop, and during the course of use ran across an odd LED error code. Found nothing about it online, had nothing better to do, so, what the hell, I called hell.

I have called hell many times in the past, but this was one of the longest waits I've ever had, raising the question of where all this money they're saving is going. Finally I get through to a support rep with an indian accent that was understandable, at least to me.

However, clearly she did not understand anything I was saying. I needed one piece of information, very specific (Middle LED Orange-Orange-Green repeating), which SHOULD have been available on their website. I asked the question, she put me on hold for ten minutes, came back and said, "It's not important".

"Maybe not," sez I, "but I still want to know."

Ten more minutes. "It's not important"

"Yes, you said that, and I said I still want to know."

Ten more minutes. "You don't need to know."

I DO need to know, to justify the last two hours of my life!"

Ten more minutes. "It's a battery code."

"No, really? The little battery ideogram next to the LED would never have given me that impression. what does it MEAN?"

Five more minutes, then I hung up. I've had many bad experiences with hell, but that was the worst in terms of sheer pointlessness.

Partly customer's own fault?

[tehanu]

I keep on hearing about how *insert big computer company*'s customer support is crap, but this doesn't seem to be affecting their profits any. Does bad customer support really affect the bysiness they get? If say Dell's customer support is crap, don't the customers just whine until their nearest geek friend/relative do the work for them free? The average buyer of computers relies on price and big numbers on the box (the MHz myth) and the ooh-shiny factor in terms of making purchasing decisions. Customer support is hardly ever considered (ditto with things like security for software purchases...). If the consumers don't care, why should the companies? If consumers want good customer support they should be willing to pay for it by making it part of their purchasing decisions eg. two identical systems from two computers, one with good customer support, one with not-so-good but the other one is cheaper, the vast majority of people will go for the cheaper one.

If customers don't vote with their wallets then why should Dell/Sony/HP et al. care about good customer support (from the POV of a business)? The idea of good customer support is to build loyalty but the average computer buyer doesn't consider support important at all when buying stuff as they will just get their nearest geek to fix it for them and they don't want to pay the extra money for good support as they want it as cheap as possible. Then from a financial POV to the business, it's just an annoying expense they have to have that doesn't add anything to the bottom line (since customers don't seem to be deserting them in droves or making purchasing decisions based on customer support reputation) and so it makes sense (from a financial POV) to do it as cheaply as possible even if it is crap.

Just A Natural Consequence

[blueZhift]

The language and accent related issues are really just a natural consequence of offshoring. In the beginning most of the people working the call centers in India (for example) were probably among the best educated there. As demand grew, more call centers were opened and more people in India heard that this was a good way to make some money. Well, the proportion of well educated and talented people in India is probably no different than in the U.S., so it was inevitable that many of the people working in the call centers now are not among the best educated and most talented. Not that they're morons, just average folk. I mean really, how many of us could communicate fluently in a foreign language? I could communicate very very badly in two or three others. With a predetermined script I could do better, but that's about it. And forget about casual conversation!

While companies could try to better train their workers, I think that with respect to foreign language skills a limit is being reached. That is, even if the person in the call center understands English perfectly, they may still have an accent when speaking it that a U.S. customer will have a hard time with. I personally like accents, but Indian accented English is one of the most difficult for me to understand. I usually have to know the person for a while to fully understand what they are saying. Unfortunately, an already upset customer in the U.S. is not likely to have the patience for that.

Re:Marketing Doubleplus Groupthink

[Puls4r]

Bzzzt. Completely wrong. What happened here is that volunteers (whose name I won't mention) SUED the parent company and won because they were working more than they should have for "free". Since then, the volunteer programs of nearly every large MMORPG have been shut down because it's cheaper to pay for crappy help than it is to litigate against volunteers who suddenly want to be paid. Good try though.

Re:AOL and Indians

[NerveGas]

I don't have any problem with any person in the world providing the support. I don't care what country they're from, really. But I do expect two things from them:

1. They should be proficient in the basic responsibilities of their job.
2. They should be understandable.

Unfortunately, finding a support rep that meets even one of those qualifications seems to be quite the accomplishment for most companies.

steve