Apple VP discusses iMac G5 Hardware Design

Cool, out of my Amish lifestyle. by MikeMacK · 2004-09-05 02:44 · Score: 5, Funny

Modern living starts at $1299.

Wow, who knew it was so easy and cheap, now I can get out of my Amish lifestyle for something more modern.

Re:Cool, out of my Amish lifestyle. by bloggins02 · 2004-09-05 03:11 · Score: 3, Funny

Wow, who knew it was so easy and cheap, now I can get out of my Amish lifestyle for something more modern. (Posted on Slashdot)

Not very good at the ol' Amish lifestyle, eh?
Re:Cool, out of my Amish lifestyle. by MikeMacK · 2004-09-05 03:46 · Score: 3, Funny

Shhhh...don't tell the Elders.
Re:Cool, out of my Amish lifestyle. by LighthouseJ · 2004-09-05 05:38 · Score: 3, Interesting

Actually, I think they allow people growing up Amish to experience technology at 18 years old. That way they let everyone make their own conscious choice to leave the Amish lifestyle or embrace it. If they ever want to come back, they can but they have to commit themselves 100% to the Amish lifestyle.
Re:Cool, out of my Amish lifestyle. by good+soldier+svejk · 2004-09-05 11:46 · Score: 2, Interesting

They allow all Amish people to experience technology every day, they just control what technology. Different groups allow different things, but technologies such as the wheel and woven textiles are pretty ubiquitous. Buttons (clothing fasteners) are not allowed in some communities, but others allow cell phones (at least in barns).

Anyway, the phenomenon you re referring to is called rumspringa.

--
It is cowardly, and a betrayal of whatever it means to be a Jew, to act as a white man

-James Baldwin
Re:Cool, out of my Amish lifestyle. by jht · 2004-09-05 13:52 · Score: 2, Interesting

My understanding is that if they leave during or after rumspringa, that's fine - they're still family and all. But if they recommit to the church and then drop out, they are shunned as a result.

Basically, I think it's a case of until they choose to commit to the Amish life as adults, departure is OK. Obviously not hoped for, but OK. But once you're in, you're expected to remain.

That said, most are said to stay in their faith.

--
-- Josh Turiel
"2. Do not eat iPod Shuffle."
Re:Cool, out of my Amish lifestyle. by upsidedown_duck · 2004-09-06 05:07 · Score: 2, Informative

Actually, I think they allow people growing up Amish to experience technology at 18 years old.

Amish communities are intertwined with non-Amish communities, they work together, and they share community resources, like nice paved roads courtesy of the DOT. Many Amish people shop at modern grocery stores, work at modern restaurants, etc. In general, they completely co-exist with their more modern neighbors. Just drive through some of the small towns in Ohio north and east of Columbus, and you'll see this everywhere.

The Amish do keep to their traditions as much as they can, such as in their church services, using oxen to pull farming equipment, horses and buggies, etc., but they are faced with the challenges of whether to adopt more technology every single day of their lives.

--
-- "Makes Little Debbie look like a pile of puke!" - Moe Szyslak

Joswiak? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-05 02:46 · Score: 4, Funny

You're not fooling anyone, Steve.

Re:Joswiak? by crackshoe · 2004-09-05 03:45 · Score: 4, Funny

Jobs + Wozniak = Joswiak. This is obviously the product of genetic manipulation dating back to the early 1980's, to breed a technical genius with a reality distortion field and impeccable style.

--
Don't worry - its just stigmata. Pass me a napkin and don't you dare tell my mother.
Re:Joswiak? by kalidasa · 2004-09-05 06:48 · Score: 2, Insightful

I think it's a joke mod. Anyway, it's a running joke - even Joswiak himself has made the joke that they hired him to get the best of both names.

Smart Design by samtihen · 2004-09-05 02:50 · Score: 5, Interesting

I think Apple always goes the extra step when designing their products. I think that one of the most interesting parts of this new iMac is the fact that it has air holes in the top of it so that the hot air can rise out. Now why hasn't anyone else thought of that? I mean, my computer has a ton of fans to move air around, but that could definitely be lessened by air slits in the top. Thanks Apple!

Re:Smart Design by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-05 03:12 · Score: 2, Insightful

wtf? who modded this up and didn't fact check?

It's amazing how you can make up any old shit and sound interesting on slashdot, and get karma.
Re:Smart Design by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-05 03:13 · Score: 5, Funny

They're actually speed holes, they make the computer go faster.
Re:Smart Design by FuzzzyLogik · 2004-09-05 03:27 · Score: 5, Informative

i think the poster was pointing out that we don't typically see this in many mainstream computer manufacturer's designs.. when in fact we should see it. Why should PC's be so loud when apple can design a 2 inch thick computer that's virtually silent? given the amount of room in a typical pc case why should the 2 inch thick imac be so much quieter when compared to a larger pc? I think that's the point he was trying to make, not that it hasn't really been done before, but it should still be done regardless of how old the idea is. it's a clever design, why not use it? you sir need to chill and just oh.. i don't know, contribute but not be such an ass in the process? sounds good.. then again you are an AC so i guess your reasoning is pretty well explained.

--
Kyle
http://www.unlogikal.net/
Re:Smart Design by Amiga+Lover · 2004-09-05 03:35 · Score: 3, Interesting

>> I'd think that interesting too, maybe, but it's wrong. There are
>> no air holes in the top of it.

> Wrong.

You must be the hundredth person I've come across online who looks at that picture and presumes the bottom of the imac is the top, because of the cooling holes. I don't get it. What's so hard to understand about a picture? OK I shouldn't get annoyed just because of what other people think but really, I wonder how much anyone is really THINKING about what they see. Are you all just taking a half second glance at an image and then seeing what you want to without making conscious thought? sheeeeesh!
Re:Smart Design by fitten · 2004-09-05 03:47 · Score: 2, Informative

Hot air rises to the top because it is lighter.

Actually, it doesn't rise at all (haven't you seen *any* of the Professor Julius Sumner Miller videos?) "There ain't no Hindu levitation goin on here!" :)

Warm air is pushed up by cooler air below it because the warmer air is less dense than the cooler air.
Re:Smart Design by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-05 03:48 · Score: 2, Interesting

i think the poster was pointing out that we don't typically see this in many mainstream computer manufacturer's designs.. when in fact we should see it. Why should PC's be so loud when apple can design a 2 inch thick computer that's virtually silent? given the amount of room in a typical pc case why should the 2 inch thick imac be so much quieter when compared to a larger pc? I think that's the point he was trying to make, not that it hasn't really been done before, but it should still be done regardless of how old the idea is. it's a clever design, why not use it? you sir need to chill and just oh.. i don't know, contribute but not be such an ass in the process? sounds good.. then again you are an AC so i guess your reasoning is pretty well explained.

The poster may have been pointing out cooling holes on top ofa computer as a good idea, but it has nothing to do with the iMac. the 2 inch thick imac might be so much quieter, but raising the point of 'cooling holes' that it does not have makes no sense because they are something hes imagined up. The iMac is well engineered in its cooling because of cooling zones that pump air in the bottom and OUT THE BACK.

It is not convection cooled, it does not have cooling holes in the top, and saying "cooling holes are a good idea because the iMac is quiet" is I dunno like saying "cooling holes are a good idea because my cat has white patches" because those two concepts are as equally related.
Re:Smart Design by FuzzzyLogik · 2004-09-05 04:00 · Score: 2, Interesting

Then I point you to the PowerMac G5. If Apple can cool it and make it virtually silent then why can't these big named pc manufacturers? Not only do they do it in silence but they do it with a beautiful case too. Granted sure on a PC some things may need to be changed to allow for a bit more expansion but seriously, it can be done, PC manufacturers are just too lazy and want to make things cheap and crappy, it's really that simple.

--
Kyle
http://www.unlogikal.net/
Re:Smart Design by badasscat · 2004-09-05 06:29 · Score: 3, Insightful

I think Apple always goes the extra step when designing their products. I think that one of the most interesting parts of this new iMac is the fact that it has air holes in the top of it so that the hot air can rise out. Now why hasn't anyone else thought of that?

Umm, lots of people have. Probably 50% of all PC towers on the market have top-mounted fans and/or air holes.

What I don't get about the new iMac is this: Ok, so it's basically a screen and keyboard. And you can carry it around the house. And it's not expandable (like other iMacs). Now, how is this different and/or better than a laptop? So the computer itself is in the screen rather than the keyboard - that's not really a major difference in form factor. What advantages does the iMac have over a PowerBook, or an iBook? Is Apple going to delay the G5 iBook now because it'd cannibalize iMac sales?

I would think a laptop would have obvious advantages over the new iMac, while not giving up much of anything. A laptop is truly portable, a true all-in-one unit. The iMac isn't.

Who would buy an iMac over a comparable laptop, and why?
Re:Smart Design by .com+b4+.storm · 2004-09-05 07:07 · Score: 4, Informative
Who would buy an iMac over a comparable laptop, and why?

Probably someone who...
1. Wants a G5 and/or doesn't want to spend $300+tax more for a laptop with an older, slower processor (1.3GHz G4 Powerbook), or
2. Doesn't want noisy laptop fans, or
3. Wants more hard drive space built-in, or
4. Wants a better GPU, or
5. Doesn't *need* a laptop, or
6. Any/all of the above
Then there's the screen size. As it stands now, a 17" PBook would cost $2800, and have a 1.5GHz G4 in it. For $1300, you get a 17" iMac with a 1.6GHz G5...
--
"Wow, you're like some kind of superhero able to ward off happiness and success at every turn."
-- Ryan Stiles
Re:Smart Design by Richard_at_work · 2004-09-05 07:24 · Score: 2, Insightful

I have a P4 based PC that is the same formfactor as the 'new' G5. 17" TFT out front with all the worky bits behind it. Guess what? Its silent. And also guess what? It costs the same as this system. And guess what? If you are willing to invest money in it, you can also get the same level of noise reduction in an off the shelf $399 P4 based system. Its very simple a case of you get what you pay for, a $399 price point doesnt lend itself to $199 in cooling technology.
Re:Smart Design by ThousandStars · 2004-09-05 07:37 · Score: 4, Informative

Now, how is this different and/or better than a laptop?
The base G5 iMac, for $1300, gets you more processing power and HD space than the most powerful $3000 Powerbook, as well as a higher-quality screen.
The iMac has more power, less money, and apparently it is somewhat user serviceable (contrary to your post).
Granted, in form factor is the number one priority and all others fall away in the distance, then there is little difference between a laptop and iMac. So when one does buy a laptop, one gives up both money and power. One gets other advantages, of course, and Apple makes various machines for the needs of different people.
Re:Smart Design by Sunnan · 2004-09-05 11:45 · Score: 2

The current iBook G4 costs less than the iMac G5, is as silent, and has a non-nVidia-card, which matters to many.

Basically your most valid point is 3, hard drive space.

The iBook G4 makes sense in a lot of cases where the original iMac made sense when it first arrived, and then some.

(I don't want to plug Apple's products - there are other good computers out there. I'm just saying that in the battle of iBook vs iMac, the former wins a lot of the time, for a lot of people.)
Re:Smart Design by danielsfca2 · 2004-09-06 03:35 · Score: 2, Funny

...because a good CPU will run slower when it overheats.
...While an evil CPU will run faster and faster the more it overheats!! Bwahahahahaaa!

Re:Istalk by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-05 02:51 · Score: 5, Funny

Nahh. Us supervillains need expandibility. Where can I fit my PCI-Express Death Ray Control Card? Or my FPGA-based neural network card? Fact is, this is a computer only for suspiciously stylish european or euro-wannabe supervillains who have a puzzling lack of buxom female henchmen, but many large blond male ones.

100 times on the blackboard! by Scrameustache · 2004-09-05 02:52 · Score: 5, Funny

Repeat after me: I will not post articles from a VP of marketing.

I will not post articles from a VP of marketing.
I will not post articles from a VP of marketing.
I will not post articles from a VP of marketing.
I will not post articles from a VP of marketing. ...

Good, now continue. Even if he's from Apple and he's got a brand new toy to talk about, he is still a VP of Marketing. : )

--

You can't take the sky from me...

Re:100 times on the blackboard! by wattersa · 2004-09-05 03:03 · Score: 3, Insightful

Notice that literally everything he says in the "interview" is devoted to increasing the differences between the "pro" and "consumer" lines. E.g. FireWire 800 had really been more attractive to a professional crowd. And really, more [appealing] than the speed has been the advantages [professionals] have with cable lengths.

What does this statement mean? It's pretty much throwaway. I hate apple marketing. They need to make the iMac G5 without the display (oh wait...attractive to a professional crowd = power mac). *sigh*
Re:100 times on the blackboard! by BasilBrush · 2004-09-05 04:01 · Score: 3, Insightful

Need to? They don't need to do any such thing. For all the noise made by geeks on a tight budget, most of the computers that I've ever known of people buying have been bought with a monitor. They might get a few extra sales with a headless version, but would it compensate them for the lower profit on a lower value machine?
ITYM, you want them to make a headless iMac.
Re:100 times on the blackboard! by jedrek · 2004-09-05 05:21 · Score: 4, Interesting

In otherwords, Apple can't give people what they want (midrange desktop box), because they are too busy gouging someone else (low-end pros).

Gouging? Where? Show me another pre-assembled, pre-configured 1.8ghz 64-bit machine with a similar form factor, 17" widescreen LCD, running at 20-30db - all for $1299. The truth is, this machine is all most "Photoshop types" need - it's more than enough (after a memory upgrade) for anything other than large print projects.

I think Apple flat out doesn't want to dilute its brand. They sell expensive, great looking computers with excellent customer service. They're not Dell, they're not HP, they're Apple, plain and simple. Remember when they used to license clones? Remember how big of a flop it was? They're nto going back there, at least not until they have to, and they may never have to.

I've been a Mac hater since '88, but this a really, really nice machine at a great price. I'm actually getting one right now and if OSX is as good as people have been saying, I'm getting one for my mom next year.
Re:100 times on the blackboard! by IntlHarvester · 2004-09-05 05:30 · Score: 2, Interesting

Just to make myself clear -- the iMac pricing is fine in my book -- just due to the formfactor its not the machine for everyone.

The "gouging" is the fact that Apple's cheapest headless machine is $2000. That's a huge premium to pay if you just want something better than a bottom-scraper video card or an insurance slot.

I just don't buy the idea that a good-looking $1K desktop would "dilute the brand" any more than the eMac or iBook has. It would still be more premium (in price and looks) than a Dell. And I think it would sell a lot better than the iMac has.

--
Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
Re:100 times on the blackboard! by mrchaotica · 2004-09-05 06:55 · Score: 3, Interesting

How would making a new Cube, or a new pizzabox dilute their brand? They've made headless consumer-grade Macs before! We just want them to do it again.

I don't think they ought to make a cheaper (single proc) G5 tower; I think they ought to make an "entertainment pc," which would be a small form-factor one with just a little bit more expandibility than the iMac, because it wouldn't be all-in-one. Imagine a Mac version of a Shuttle PC, or a 2 inch think hi-fi equipment-looking one (i.e., a consumer-grade Xserve) with one PCIe slot.

Either way, stick an ATi All-In-Wonder in the PCIe slot, make a video/PVR complement to iTunes, and voila! -- instant competitor to Windows Media Center Edition. You could even bundle it with one of those 30" Cinema displays! And heck, as an afterthought, if you just happened to use a 9800 for that video card, you'd have a kick-ass gaming machine too!

Not only would this not cut into "professional" Mac sales (it still wouldn't be that expandable, and wouldn't have fast, dual CPUs), but it would still be true to "Apple brand" because it would be continuing the heritage of the pizzaboxes and the Cube.

--
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
Re:100 times on the blackboard! by Lars+T. · 2004-09-05 08:14 · Score: 2, Interesting

Just by comparing the headless Mac you describe and the one IntlHarvester describes, we see why Apple would fail if they brought out one. 75% of people wanting a HLM would complain that it isn't the HLM they wanted.

--
Lars T.
To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck
Re:100 times on the blackboard! by IntlHarvester · 2004-09-05 08:34 · Score: 2, Interesting

Sounds like the exact same machine to me. The lowend guy gets a decent entry $1K box with a 3rd party CRT, and the high-end guy gets a PVR with a $$$$ Apple display. All new markets for Apple. Thus the incredible magic of a simple PCIe slot and letting the user pick their video card and display.

(I still have faith that Apple will introduce such a machine as soon as G5 production gets ramped up.)

--
Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.

Oft-Overlooked Point by the+pickle · 2004-09-05 02:53 · Score: 5, Informative

In everyone's clamouring for a G5 PowerBook, a lot of people have said that this iMac proves a G5 PowerBook could be coming soon.

Joswiak does a great job of explaining exactly why that won't be happening:

There's still a luxury we have in two inches that we don't have in a fraction of an inch, if you think about how much space there really is in the bottom of a PowerBook... Certainly we were trying to learn from the iMac, but not like, "Oh, there's this breakthrough now, expect it next month.

I want a G5 PowerBook as bad as the next guy, but I'm a realist about it. If we see one by MWSF in January I'll be VERY impressed.

Fascinating interview overall. Anything that gives insight into Apple's collective thought process is worthwhile for the rest of the tech industry to keep an eye on.

p

--
In Korea, long hair is for old people!

Re:Oft-Overlooked Point by immel · 2004-09-05 03:04 · Score: 2

They probably could make a G5 powerbook, but it would be a mega-luggable; a behemoth among the beautiful, svelte laptops we expect from Apple. This is something they have tried to avoid since the mac portable.

--

10 Bits= $.25
100 Bits= $.50
110 Bits= $.75
1000 Bits= 1 byte
Re:Oft-Overlooked Point by John_Booty · 2004-09-05 03:10 · Score: 4, Interesting

I agree with you.

Serious question, not rhetorical: is there really that much to be learned about cooling a G5? There's only so much heat removal you can do, given a certain amount of space and a CPU which produces a certain amount of heat. I don't know that there's some miracle the Apple design/engineering wizards can really pull out of their proverbial hats on that one. Unless there's some really obvious stuff they're NOT doing at the moment?

I think the thing that leads to a G5 laptop would probably be cooler-running G5 CPUs from IBM, or a newfound desire from Apple to do an unsexy "luggable" laptop. Then again, I suppose the current generation of G5 CPUs would run pretty cool when clocked down to 1 or 1.2ghz, if they really wanted to get one out of the door...

--

OtakuBooty.com: Smart, funny, sexy nerds.
Re:Oft-Overlooked Point by King_TJ · 2004-09-05 05:43 · Score: 3, Interesting

Actually, I thought I read someplace that the G5 processors don't generate quite as much heat as some of the latest AMD and Intel offerings.... The main reasons Apple has that huge water-cooled radiator gizmo are because (A) it's very quiet, and (B) for all intentions and purposes, they're really running what's basically a 2.0Ghz CPU with IBM sanctioned and properly engineered "overclocking" applied to it.

That being said though, they certainly *do* generate lots of heat, and don't seem appropriate for use in a laptop at all. (Of course, neither did the non-mobile versions of Intel's P4 CPU, yet some vendors shoehorned them into laptops anyway.) As others have said, surely Apple is just waiting on IBM to redesign the G5 so they have a version with lower power consumption and heat generation, suitable for mobile use. As with practically all CPUs, the desktop version comes first - followed by "mobile" versions much further down the road.

I think it's probably *possible* to build a laptop with an existing G5 CPU in it. You'd have to make the laptop fairly thick and heavy though, which would never fly as a Powerbook upgrade. People buy them largely because they're lightweight and thin. You'd also end up with some kind of cooling contraption like peltier junctions transferring heat over to a large plate with multiple cooling fans blowing on it. It surely wouldn't be a "quiet" laptop.... (But neither are Sager's "gaming/performance laptops" - and some people still buy those.)
Re:Oft-Overlooked Point by Dot.Com.CEO · 2004-09-05 22:16 · Score: 2, Informative

I have the latest 12in AlBook and it's not that bad. I played around with an earlier model before settling on the 1.33MHz one. It really was getting too hot after a while, especially after playing a 3d game (neverwinter nights in my case). The 1.33 one gets warm and only gets moderately hot (ie not hotter than a comparable windows laptop) when playing games. The main inconvenience of that is that the tiny fan starts working full time and makes a hell of a noise (for a laptop, that is).
So, to sum it up, the faster G4 PBs run much, much cooler than the past generation.

--
Mother is the best bet and don't let Satan draw you too fast.

The All-in-One is cool, by Hawthorne01 · 2004-09-05 02:56 · Score: 4, Interesting

but I'd love to see a system with the same stats, without the LCD being offered to the education and enterprise markets. That would kick up Apple's market share in a heartbeat. I own a G4 17" iMac and love it, but I know my needs and the needs of the middle school down the road are two different things.

--
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

Re:The All-in-One is cool, by Laivincolmo · 2004-09-05 03:03 · Score: 4, Insightful

A middle school really doesn't need a powerful G5 processor when you think about it though. If they're just going to maybe browse the web, and maybe have a few games installed, perhaps the eMac would be a more affordable solution : Apple Store
Re:The All-in-One is cool, by ChristTrekker · 2004-09-05 03:23 · Score: 2, Insightful

Exactly. A "pizza box" that they could easily replace monitors on would be just the thing. Schools need computers to last a long time, and kids can be tough on them - repeatedly sending them back for LCD repair would get old fast. Though the AIO "almost no cables needed" style has some points in its favor too.

--
Constitutionally Correct
Re:The All-in-One is cool, by crackshoe · 2004-09-05 03:39 · Score: 4, Informative

educational implementations tend to use (and often prefer) the all-in-one. Its easier to move (mobile computer carts), harder to steal parts (its actually an issue - i promise). From the all-in-one g3 (with the clear plastic hood which led to the imac, if i don't misremember, which i might) to the emac (and, if you want to go farther back, the long line of apple all-in-one units).

--
Don't worry - its just stigmata. Pass me a napkin and don't you dare tell my mother.
Re:The All-in-One is cool, by Malacon · 2004-09-05 05:16 · Score: 3, Informative

I'd love to see a system with the same stats, without the LCD being offered to the education and enterprise markets. That would kick up Apple's market share in a heartbeat.

They did that a few years back - it was called the G4 Cube and it did horribly.

It was too pricey to justify it not having a Monitor OR any expansion. I have a feeling that with the LCD iMacs they can save some of the cost of the Hardware in the mass produced screen. Take out the screen and its harder to do make a profit.

I have always loved mac stuff, by deutschemonte · 2004-09-05 02:57 · Score: 4, Funny

but being a poor techie, I just can't afford it.

I wait with bait on my breath for a simple, cheap ($500-$800), computer from them that includes the styling and beauty of the more expensive models.

But I guess that's why I am typing this on my old 497mHz 128MB ram linux box.

Hail the new "free" economy and the frustion of Apple that they are not considered by many to be an alternative to the mighty monopolistic broken OS.

--
The preceding message was based on actual events. Only the names, locations and events have been changed.

Re:I have always loved mac stuff, by MatSimpsk · 2004-09-05 03:04 · Score: 2, Interesting

Well, the eMac comes in at just under you $800 threshold
Re:I have always loved mac stuff, by MacGod · 2004-09-06 03:39 · Score: 2, Insightful

I wait with bait on my breath for a simple, cheap ($500-$800), computer from them that includes the styling and beauty of the more expensive models.

Yeah, and I wait on baited breath for BMW to release a $10,000 car with all the grace, beauty, styling, comfort and power of their 5 and 7-series models.

Some things just aren't in the cards.

--
"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one " -Albert Einstein

It's very user serviceable by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-05 02:57 · Score: 4, Informative

From Apple's Site:

Think you need a new part? You can replace many of your iMac G5's parts yourself.

The iMac G5 is designed to make it easy for you to install replacement parts if you need to. The parts you can install yourself are:

AirPort Extreme Card

Memory - DDR 400 MHz (PC3200) SDRAM

Hard drive

Optical drive

Power supply

LCD display

Modem card

Mid-plane assembly (contains the main logic board, the G5 processor, fans, NVIDIA graphics processor, and so forth).

The back supposedly has only three screws holding it on. Plus a optional wall mounting bracket is available from Apple. The keyboard can go under the computer to save desk space, fans are quiet too!

Team Mac OS X #1971 is going to love Folding@home with this new toy.

I love it and definably getting one!

Re:It's very user serviceable by numark · 2004-09-05 04:54 · Score: 2, Informative

Hard drives are considered "user servicable parts" under AppleCare and therefore changing them doesn't void your warranty. In fact, virtually everything you could buy off the shelf and install into your G4 will be considered user servicable. The only things that could void your warranty would be, say, changing out the logic board or other devices that aren't readily available and must be procured from Apple.

Now, of course, if you go to install a hard drive, and you snap pins off of the IDE connector on the logic board, then yeah, you would void your warranty. This is no different from PCs. However, assuming that everything gets done correctly, AppleCare will continue to cover your computer regardless of what you've upgraded.

--
Want Slashdot headlines on your site? Try SlashHead

This sums is up... by OneOver137 · 2004-09-05 02:58 · Score: 5, Insightful

..."teeny little things like that that tend to, over the course of time, make people love their Mac and inspire magazines like yours, versus people getting [angry] over time at their PCs because of little things that drive them nuts."
It's that level of attention to detail that people cherish. God is in the details.

All fine and dandy by Udo+Schmitz · 2004-09-05 03:04 · Score: 3, Interesting

But looking at my iMacDV, or to be more specific listening to my iMacDV I wonder when will Apple be building fanless Macs again? Ever?

Just gimme my 999$ G5 Cube ...

Smart Design and Smart Engineering by reporter · 2004-09-05 03:05 · Score: 5, Interesting

The iMac G5 is a full-blown workstation in its own right. It runs UNIX on top of a Power4-based microprocessor. Furthermore, its performance is competitive with the very best desktops based on the new 64-bit x86 processors.

Instead of focusing so much on styling, the marketing droids should show us some stats indicating the percentage of the engineering market that the G5 Macs have. I suspect that the G5 Macs have the highest percentage of the engineering workstation market after the x86 boxes.

Re:Smart Design and Smart Engineering by bob+beta · 2004-09-05 03:55 · Score: 2, Interesting

I suspect that the G5 Macs have the highest percentage of the engineering workstation market after the x86 boxes.

Not enough of the high end 'workstation' software has been ported to the Mac for this to be true. A lot of that software, regrettably, migrated over to NT from the UNIX workstations in the mid to late 90's. I doubt if it will migrate to the Mac anytime soon.

--
"What's the frequency Kenneth?"
Re:Smart Design and Smart Engineering by ScottSpeaks! · 2004-09-05 04:02 · Score: 4, Informative

The iMac G5 is a full-blown workstation in its own right.
The low-end iMac G5 is - almost spec for spec - last year's low-end PowerMac G5. I should know: I have one (and paid nearly $1000 more for it).
Re:Smart Design and Smart Engineering by Jeremy+Erwin · 2004-09-05 05:14 · Score: 2, Informative

but you can use firewire-800. You can also cram 4 gb into the PMG5. The bus is also faster.
Re:Smart Design and Smart Engineering by huchida · 2004-09-05 06:30 · Score: 3, Interesting

but you can use firewire-800. You can also cram 4 gb into the PMG5. The bus is also faster. ... And you will be able to update the graphics card (which is already better, I should add) and use PCI slots if you ever need to, as well as install a second internal drive... And replace the Superdrive yourself when it's inevitably the first thing to fail.

And you can use whatever monitor you want. I have a Viewsonic 17" LCD and 19" CRT attached to my G5, and both monitors together (and the ADC adaptor) cost less than a 17" Apple studio display. Dual monitor spanning is not even available on the iMac without a hack.

And you don't run the risk of having a pefectly functioning computer attached to a dead monitor some day or vice versa. I inherited an otherwise fine G4 iMac with a broken screen from a friend; Apple refused to repair it under Applecare (it was damaged during a move) and the cost of replacing the swing-arm LCD would be nearly as much as the computer is worth.

Then again, the iMac G5 is a bargain, and it is worth it if you don't need to expand. I would definitely recommend Applecare on any all-in-one system though.
Re:Smart Design and Smart Engineering by mattkime · 2004-09-05 06:32 · Score: 2, Informative

No its not. The frontside bus is half the speed. No Firewire 800. Half the total possible RAM.

Not to mention all the other goodies you get with the Powermac G5. PCI slots. Upgradable video. Two hard drive bays. Dual monitor support.

You may have paid nearly a grand more for it a year ago, but you still have more value than the current iMacs.

--
Know what I like about atheists? I've yet to meet one that believes God is on their side.
Re:Smart Design and Smart Engineering by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-05 09:03 · Score: 3, Insightful

The thing I've always wondered about is just why Apple haven't gone after more of the high-end scientific/technical market (or servers, really, for that matter.) As has been pointed out many times, a G5 Mac is basically a scaled-down IBM POWER5 system. It's just a lot cheaper. Lots of Unix stuff (free and non-free) already runs on OSX, and the stuff that doesn't would be a pretty easy port. They hype it to a degree on their website, but not as much as they (IMHO) should. I wonder - do they have some sort of agreement with IBM not to go after the workstation/server market too aggressively? In other words, Apple gets the low-end of the PPC market, but all the really high-end stuff are belong to Big Blue?
Re:Smart Design and Smart Engineering by ScottSpeaks! · 2004-09-05 09:32 · Score: 3, Interesting

That would be why I said "almost". Of course there are differences. The PowerMac has more expansion potential. The iMac takes less room. The PowerMac has a place to stack a Zip drive on top. The iMac has a display that tilts better than the 17" Studio LCD.
But it has the same number of processors, of the same type, running at the same speed. It has the same size hard drive, and the same class of optical drive. It comes with the same amount of RAM. It has roughly the same size display (17" widescreen, vs. 17" traditional). Most of the major specs match up. And if you unbox one of these new iMacs and set it up next to my 9-month-old PowerMac, most of the things one can do, the other will do about as well. The point being that by the standards of late 2003, this is a rather powerful machine. (And affordable.) Which oughta be good enough for most people.
Re:Smart Design and Smart Engineering by xrissley · 2004-09-06 02:23 · Score: 4, Informative

Point noted, but let me direct you to Apple's onw site:
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=868 12
which states precisely that user can herself service (so: replace and or upgrade) the following:
- AirPort Extreme Card
- Memory - DDR 400 MHz (PC3200) SDRAM
- Hard drive
- Optical drive
- Power supply
- LCD display
- Modem card
- Mid-plane assembly (contains the main logic board, the G5 processor, fans, NVIDIA graphics processor, and so forth).

So true, graphic card still seems hard to upgrade, so seems CPU itself, but this is less of a stuck design here, nice improvement, not?

Of course, mirror only display makes a point for powermac form factor.
re drives, we have firewire (not 800, so pro will still look at the powermac line).

All in all, the comparison lots of people keep on making with Powermac prooves one thing: the iMac G5 seems to be a nice powerhorse.

--
=====
I lie all the time, including now

iMac G4 arm will be missed by mariox19 · 2004-09-05 03:06 · Score: 5, Interesting

We found that most people don't end up raising or lowering [the iMac G4 screen]. The big thing is the tilt direction...

Maybe those of us who don't fall into the "most people" category will miss the range of motion available on the iMac G4. I own one now. Occasionally I like to tilt my chair back and slump down. To match that posture, I move the iMac screen down, too. At other times I'm just tired of sitting. I then stand and raise the screen all the way up, tilting it all the way back. I can surf the 'Net comfortably for a little while this way. It's a nice change of pace.

I think the G5 iMac is a great machine, but I'll miss the screen mobility when I get one.

--

quiquid id est, timeo puellas et oscula dantes.

Re:iMac G4 arm will be missed by daviddennis · 2004-09-05 03:15 · Score: 2, Informative

When I've raised this issue in previous articles on the new iMac, I have been informed that it's apparently VESA compliant and there are VESA arms that you can buy.

Not as elegant a solution as the original iMac - in fact, I wish the redesigned displays had an arm - but it should work.

D
Re:iMac G4 arm will be missed by Jeff+DeMaagd · 2004-09-05 03:16 · Score: 3, Insightful

Given that the mount poing is based an open standard, I'd expect that third party telescoping mounts will be made available if there really is sufficient demand.
Re:iMac G4 arm will be missed by OgGreeb · 2004-09-05 04:23 · Score: 2, Informative

Since the G5 iMac will support a VESA mount, you can mount it on any floating arm, wall-mount it, etc.
Take a look at Ergotron for instance. You could mount two iMacs side-by-side on the same mount, or mount the iMac on an arm with the keyboard floating underneath.

--
-- Gary Goldberg KA3ZYW 301/249-6501 AIM:OgGreeb Digital Marketing Inc., Bowie, MD //www.digimark.net/

Apple devotees a little miffed by SilentChris · 2004-09-05 03:10 · Score: 4, Interesting

I've spent a lot of time on the Apple forums (I own a new iBook) and the reaction I've seen to the new iMac has been pretty "eh".

The original iMac, G4 cube and even the last iMac (to a certain extent) were elegant. The iPod had a great design because it was functional enough to fit in a small pocket. It doesn't make a very good consumer PC design.

Also, people have been a little miffed by some design choices. Why have all the wires running out the back of the screen instead of the base (I know, I know, wireless keyboard and mouse -- but most people will be hooking a printer up to this thing). Some people are complaining about it not being wall mountable (which would've been a cool high-end feature). Also, from a marketing standpoint, they completely missed the fall school schedule.

For now, I'm quite happy with my iBook. It has become my computer of choice in a house full of computers, and prompted me to buy an iPod. But I wouldn't buy the new iMac.

Re:Apple devotees a little miffed by phillymjs · 2004-09-05 03:21 · Score: 4, Informative

Some people are complaining about it not being wall mountable

Some people don't read specs closely enough before bitching.

Apple will start selling a VESA mount adapter for the new iMac in October which opens up all kinds of mounting possibilities. The only thing that it can't do is hang flush against the wall, due to the power connection and ports (unless you modify the wall behind it to accommodate those).

~Philly
Re:Apple devotees a little miffed by Alan+Hicks · 2004-09-05 03:28 · Score: 2, Informative

The original iMac, G4 cube and even the last iMac (to a certain extent) were elegant.

I can't say with any certainty about the cube or original iMac, but the previous iMac was an expensive beast to manufacture with that movable arm. Getting rid of it likely reduced a large chunk of the most to make an iMac.

Also, from a marketing standpoint, they completely missed the fall school schedule.

That's certainly something Apple regrets make no mistake about it, but it wasn't something they had a lot of choice over. The G5 iMac just couldn't be produced in large enough quantities for a release until IBM could get the G5 chips made. So this isn't really a marketing blunder, but a production blunder from a third party vendor. What are you gonna do?

--
Slackware, what else when it must be secure, stable, and easy?
Re:Apple devotees a little miffed by aluminumcube · 2004-09-05 03:39 · Score: 5, Informative

There will be a wall mount available on the Apple Store for the G5 iMac in October. It complies with the VESA spec and will cost $30.

As to the cable issue, I don't see how it's going to matter that much- cables in the base or cables from the side, your still going to end up with a bunch of wires sticking out the back of your computer any way it goes. For $220, you can upgrade to the Bluetooth mouse+keyboard AND get an AirPort Express which includes a USB port so you can print wirelessly.

In a way though, having the plugs where they are makes perfect sense though- My mom's G4 iMac was tucked back into her desk and it was always a PITA to move everything off the desk to pull it out and get to the ports when necessary. With people plugging and unpluging devices often (which a lot of people do in my experience as the family tech support guru), it makes sense to place accessability over aesthetics.

Or let me put it to you another way- Apple is an exceedingly anal retentive company when it comes to design. I for one would trust that they explored every option on where to put the ports and they decided that the side was the best solution. That isn't to say they are right, but I am willing to bet money there were more then a few pound-the-table arguments about that issue.
Re:Apple devotees a little miffed by ottffssent · 2004-09-05 03:50 · Score: 3, Interesting

That's interesting that an Apple-centric crowd would be so unimpressed. I've long faulted Apple for poor (-ly suited to me, if not outright wrong) design choices in the past, and think the new iMac looks quite nice.

I was initially skeptical of the cable layout as well, but upon further consideration think it is actually quite reasonable. For one thing, it's harder to access the back of the base than it is the side of the monitor. If you're never adding or removing devices, it matters very little where the cords plug in, but with this layout it's simple to reach around the corner and plug something in temporarily, and not much more difficult to thread a cable through the guide. For another thing, the cables are more-or-less aligned along the horizontal axis of the machine, so tilting the monitor won't pull on your cables.

You're correct that the design is only elegant until you start throwing peripherals at it, and will lose a lot of its simplicity and coolness with a half-dozen USB devices sticking out of it. However, if the machine's as nice as it looks in a fairly bare setup, and still manages to be at least functional with lots of stuff attached, that's a pretty successful design.

I don't think Firewire800 is necessary, but I am surprised Apple didn't include gigE. I suspect it's primarily to differentiate their product lines, but given the cost difference (a few dollars), it's still surprising they didn't throw it in. Another thing that worries me is the hard drive. Apple claim 25dB(A) v. 28dB(A) for the older iMac design. However, the older imacs had a disturbing tendency to develop rather whiny hard drives after a while, completely shooting their low noise floor and doing it with a high-pitched drone which is way more offensive than fan noise. If the new imacs can maintain their low noise floor in actual use, I'll be quite pleased.

Naturally a final opinion will have to wait until I've commandeered one at an apple store for a while, but if they're physically stable, they look like great replacements for our aging iMac/600s.

--
High-speed Road Trip (18.000KPH)
Re:Apple devotees a little miffed by kTag · 2004-09-05 04:10 · Score: 2, Informative

>Some people are complaining about it not being wall mountable

iMac product page. Next to the VESA logo, you can read:
"The iMac offers the smallest footprint ever, but you can make that zero with an optional VESA mount. Hang it from the wall or swing it around on your desk."
So, now the iMac has a high-end feature, cool!!

--
kTag
Re:Apple devotees a little miffed by Anonymous+Writer · 2004-09-05 06:02 · Score: 2, Informative

I know, I know, wireless keyboard and mouse -- but most people will be hooking a printer up to this thing

Rather than hooking up a printer to the unit, the printer could be hooked up to an AirPort Express.
Re:Apple devotees a little miffed by cowscows · 2004-09-05 15:47 · Score: 2, Interesting

One of the downsides to Apple's history of innovation is that people begin to expect unrealistic things from them. And all the rumor sites just making crap up doesn't help either. For a lot of people, when they see a picture of this new iMac, if it isn't something so entirely different from anything they've seen before, they're disappointed.

Apple's trying to walk a middle of the line approach here. Use lessons learned in past designs, both by them and by competitors, while also making something distinctly Apple. And a lot of people are upset because the computer on the back of the LCD has been tried before. Of course, a lot of other companies had mp3 players out before the iPod, and look how well that's worked out.

Oh, and a last comment on the cables issue. I've got one of the aluminum cinema displays, which is similar in a lot of ways. Same stand, same basic mount. It has two firewire and two usb ports on the back of it, and honestly, you can hardly even see the cables hanging down behind it. The bottom edge of the monitor is close enough to the desk that you don't really notice the wires that much. If you imagine cables being plugged in to Apple's promo-shots, the mental image is unattractive, because the machine is photographed on a plain white background. In real life, desks are full of stuff, people are used to cables everywhere, and you probably don't even notice them anymore.

--
One time I threw a brick at a duck.

Most of us? by Udo+Schmitz · 2004-09-05 03:18 · Score: 4, Insightful

Maybe those of us who don't fall into the "most people" category will miss the range of motion available on the iMac G4.

Those of us who don't fall into the "most people" category use a Mac anyway.

Wow, but will it work by pjbgravely · 2004-09-05 03:30 · Score: 2, Interesting

The small size is stunning. It looks like a must have item for the rich kids. I hope for heat sake that they are under-clocking the processor. But what's up with the low memory size?

--
Star Trek, there maybe hope.

Diagnostic lights by CaseyB · 2004-09-05 03:31 · Score: 5, Funny

There are even four indicator lights on the motherboard that an Apple Care person will tell you to look at the lights, and depending on what's lit up, can tell you the state of different sub-systems.

But first they force you to admit that there are actually five lights.

Warning to iMac customers by Ars-Fartsica · 2004-09-05 03:39 · Score: 3, Insightful

AT 256MB, the standard RAM allotment will not be adequate for most people. Note that if you upgrade via the Apple Store, by Apple's return policies the box is now a "custom build" and cannot be returned. Since the RAM seems to have been lowballed almost by design, it seems there is a concerted effort to minimize returns.

Re:Warning to iMac customers by krray · 2004-09-05 03:48 · Score: 4, Insightful

Agreed - 256M is not nearly enough. 512M minimum and 1G is really a good _start_. With every Mac I've requisitioned the memory has been capped where possible.

Upgrading via the Apple Store will negate a return, but by no means will they not service/replace the unit when/where needed. Besides, once you buy a Mac and use it for a bit you will not WANT to return it.

If you do decide to upgrade in the future you'll also find that Mac's tend to hold some decent resale value. PC's are worthless.
Re:Warning to iMac customers by HeghmoH · 2004-09-05 04:56 · Score: 3, Insightful

Buy your RAM third-party. It avoids this trouble, and is usually half the price too.

--
Mod down posts with a "Free Mac Mini/iPod" sig, they're spam!

Design is a regression, but a progression in cost by adzoox · 2004-09-05 03:43 · Score: 4, Informative

One thing that was mentioned at Expo Paris that isn't mentioned in this article:

The design was carefully thought out to save weight. [and therefore shipping/distribution costs] The previous sunflower design was costing almost as much as an eMac (with a heavy CRT) to ship because the base needed to be counterweighted. This was a "design flaw" of the sunflower iMac.

I had proposed something like this to maintain the sunflower design - which I believe to be one of the most unique electronic designs of the decade.

What a lot of people don't understand about the new unit is that with the stand - this unit actually takes up a little more depth than the eMac and carries NO side to side rotation - like the swingarm from the previous design did. If you add in this element - it actually takes up 40% more deskspace. One must have all of that area clear on the desktop to turn the display. [new iMac is much more static]

--
Yell & scream & rant & rave... it's no use... you need a shaaaave ~ Bugs Bunny

The more things change.. by callipygian-showsyst · 2004-09-05 04:01 · Score: 2, Funny

What! No Floppy Drive!? Didn't Steven learn *anything* from the NeXt Cube?

--
Best Buy can have you arrested

Re:The more things change.. by GigsVT · 2004-09-05 05:37 · Score: 2, Funny

I hear the mouse only has one button too, and there's no parallel port either!

--
I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
Re:The more things change.. by jcr · 2004-09-05 15:12 · Score: 2, Insightful

We'll give up Obj-C when you show us something better.

-jcr

--
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."

Re:Design is a regression, but a progression in co by aluminumcube · 2004-09-05 04:07 · Score: 2, Insightful

I call BS.

The iMac G5 is progressive in price, technology and design. Since I will assume you agree with the first two-

In my book, design is all about making products that are elegant while being used and as minimal as possible when not being used. Based on those two (admittedly highly personal criteria) the iMac G5 is a BIG win.

Say what you will about it somehow being less compact then an eMac (exactly how are you measuring that?) the fact of the matter is that design is a about perception. I think any normal/sane/non-engineer person will look at the iMac G5 and immediately perceive it to be the most compact and elegant solution between previous iMacs and the eMac. Power perceived is power achieved in the world of consumer products, and the latest iMac wins hands down.

Then again, you also advocate that Apple should take a highly expensive, somewhat delicate, complex and oddly shaped device and expect the users of this product (designed to be as simple and elegant as possible) to fill the bottom of the bastard up with water as soon as they got it home so Apple could save a few $$$ on shipping costs...

Doh! by bckspc · 2004-09-05 04:32 · Score: 2, Funny

Now we have to add *another* Slashdot icon.

Damn you Apple!

Think iPod by Infonaut · 2004-09-05 04:52 · Score: 4, Interesting

Apple is very strongly tying the new iMac to the iPod. The idea is to leverage the tremendous success of the iPod to show Wintel users that Apple also makes great personal computers.

While the original iMac, G4 Cube, and Luxo iMac were impressive feats of design, they also screamed out, "This is an Apple product. I'm different!"

The new iMac is elegant and well-designed, but it takes a much more subtle approach. It is less of an ad for Apple. I think the reason is that Apple wants to provide Wintel users with a computer that is like the iPod - elegant, highly useful, and understated.

Whether they'll say it or not, many corporate and small business customers have stayed away from Apple hardware for years because since the advent of the bondi blue iMac, Macs have been just too "different'. It makes a lot of people uncomfortable to go too far away from familiar design.

Apple is taking a very measured and cautious approach with business customers, and they probably will never come out and directly say it, but the new iPod-inspired design is likely intended less to appeal to traditional Mac users than it is to entice Switchers.

I think Apple will sell boatloads of the new iMac, and I'm very tempted to snag one of the 20" versions myself.

--
Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ

New slogan coming soon? by stienman · 2004-09-05 04:56 · Score: 3, Funny

this achieves much of the same things [as the G4 iMac] in a different way and, we think, in a better way.

Ah. So instead of

Think Different(TM)

It's now

Think Better. We think...

-Adam

Re:Shoppers will reject this by evn · 2004-09-05 05:05 · Score: 2, Interesting

Are x86 manufacturers are selling 10kg 20" tablet PCs with aluminum stands and no battery now?

I think they'll say "Nice LCD display but where's the computer?" and that is kinda the point.

The speakers...! by Atomic+Frog · 2004-09-05 05:12 · Score: 2, Interesting

Get left out too often.

Actually, Apple are not the first to try this trick. Downward firing stereo speakers were also on my old IBM Thinkpad 770X.

Let me tell you, they work amazingly well, especially considering they are tiny 2W laptop speakers.
Too bad IBM has taken a step backwards with the new "T" series. That is the crappiest audio I've ever heard on any laptop, and it isn't even stereo.

Search before posting by SuperKendall · 2004-09-05 05:17 · Score: 3, Informative

Slashdot already had a story about the Airport Express being cracked - weeks ago. Here's a news article.

Or do a search for "Airport Express Linux" and you'll find the same thing.

--
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley

Re:This is what Jobs... by BigFil · 2004-09-05 05:23 · Score: 3, Insightful

The reason why the all in one LCD design was rejected last time around was becuase it would have required a large bulge in the back of the LCD (i believe for the PS) thus not making it a flatscreen. The technologhy has progressed far enough now that the bulge can be taken away.

--
"Better to be forgotten, then remembered for giving in" - Erich Schmaltz

Re:Design is a regression, but a progression in co by aftk2 · 2004-09-05 05:32 · Score: 3, Insightful

I had proposed something like this to maintain the sunflower design - which I believe to be one of the most unique electronic designs of the decade.

And you were rightly chastized on MacRumors.com...because of the idea that people should add water (?) to the base of their sunflower iMac is just bizarre.

Look, I can't say enough good things about the new iMac. Somehow, they managed to shoehorn a 1.8Ghz G5 in there, allow you to add up to 2gigs of RAM, give you a serial ATA hard drive and a 20 inch screen, while making it user-serviceable (for the most part) and hovering around 2 inches thick (for the 20inch model.) That is amazing.

Furthermore, when this thing starts selling like crazy (which it will, look at that price), there will be more wall mounts and sunflower-style arms that one might have believed possible in such a limited market. I imagine they will probably even get a better graphics card in there, at some point (Don't think so? ATI just announced a 128mb card, the Radeon 9200, for PCI PowerMacs...these are systems that stopped shipping 5 years ago.)

--
concrete5: a cms made for marketing, but strong enough for geeks.

Re:How many workstations have 256MB RAM? by GigsVT · 2004-09-05 05:33 · Score: 2, Informative

He was talking about engineering workstations, not LAN party boxes. When you say bleeding-edge video, it seems to imply something like an ATI 9800 or higher, when that sort of card is of little use for an engineer of any type.

--
I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.

iLike it... by MsGeek · 2004-09-05 05:41 · Score: 5, Interesting

Since 1999, I have had a Blue-and-White G3 minitower. It's been lovely...no hardware problems yet. I upgraded it once, to add RAM and a bigger HD.

Since then, there have been no compelling reasons to get a newer Mac. The Blue-and-White was by-and-large a "future proof" machine, like it was advertised to my bosses at the Dot-Com I used to work at. The machine was loaned to me for telecommuting and when the company went bust I was able to buy it from them at fire-sale prices with part of my last paycheck.

The new iMac is the first Mac that has really screamed "UPGRADE TO ME!" in a while. My Blue-and-White is getting long in the tooth now, and even with 512MB RAM it struggles a little.

Do any of you realize just how hot this machine will be once the first 64-bit version of MacOS comes out???? No, I don't mean cooling problems, I mean hot as in bitchen. Agreed, they should have gone with a better Nvidia video chipset, (but I suspect the 5200 is a choice for power draw and heat as well as low price) and it should have come standard with more RAM, but dig: it's still pretty good.

And let me point out something else. Compare this all-in-one machine to the 32-bit Gateway Profile 4, which is no longer a production machine and is selling through Gateway's site as a refurb. Los Angeles Valley College has a computer lab full of these low-end machines, bought when they were still new.

Even as a refurbished machine, this is selling for $1,200 US. This is with Windows XP Home (not Pro, Home) and Works (not Office) pre-installed, a basic tray-load CD-ROM, Intel "Extreme Graphics" (anyone who's worked with it knows how laughable this term is) and 10/100 Ethernet.

Now look at the iMac G5's specs. The low-end machine is only $100 US more expensive new than the refurbed Gateway Profile 4. For this, you get a CD-RW/DVD-ROM combo drive, Firewire to go with your USB, (and I don't know whether the Gateway POS has USB2 or USB 1.1 USB ports) and a wide-screen 17" TFT as opposed to a regular 4:3 17" TFT. Spend $200 more and you get a DVD-/+RW "Superdrive."

Yes, you pay a premium for Apple products. However, as you can see, the premium isn't very much at all. This is a 64-bit xNIX workstation we are talking about here. For only $300 more than a steaming cow-flop from Gateway. (I know from whence I speak about the Gateway: I have seen too many of those Profile 4 machines in the computer lab with "out of order" signs taped in front of them.) Apple builds things, by and large, to last. And yes, they design them to look pretty damn cool.

Maybe next June I can convince the remainders of my family to chip in on one of these as a grad present.

--
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.

Re:iLike it... by Xxanmorph · 2004-09-05 10:32 · Score: 2, Informative

The Profile 4 isn't being made, that's because the Profile 5 series is around now. That would be a more useful comparison. That doesn't change your point (which I agree with) since the specs are nearly identical, just some info.
Re:iLike it... by mjs · 2004-09-06 02:14 · Score: 2, Interesting

"... and a wide-screen 17" TFT as opposed to a regular 4:3 17" TFT"

A 4:3 screen has more surface area than a 16:10 screen of the same diagonal size. (Because it's closer to a square.) 4:3 is about 140 square inches; 16:10 is about 130.

Re:No explanation for crappy video card by IntlHarvester · 2004-09-05 05:47 · Score: 2, Interesting

> The iMac has never been a gaming machine,

If Joe Yuppie goes and buys a shiny new Mac, he has the reasonable expectation that the kids will be able to fire up Doom3 or Halo and get decent play out of it. That's what people do with home computers -- play games.

If that's not the case, he might think "Damn I spent a lot of money on that Apple, and the kids hated it. Next time I'm getting something else." He is probably not going to think "Next time I'm dropping $2500 to get a G5 with the PDQ9000 video card."

The video card in these things seems to violate the Apple principle of "It just works".

--
Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.

Re:No explanation for crappy video card by TylerL82 · 2004-09-05 05:49 · Score: 2, Funny

if you want that then you need to spring for a PowerMac. The 5200 will handle anything that Quartz throws at it though.

I had a PowerMac 5200.
http://www.lowendmac.com/roadapples/x200.shtml
..but having Quartz throw ANYTHING at it would probably cause it to shatter into a million pieces.

Re:Why do you want a G5 powerbook anyway? by PaulMaximne · 2004-09-05 05:58 · Score: 2, Insightful

Well, I use my powerbook as my main machine. All my development is done on this, so more power would be very nice. I know several people that have a big monitor and external keyboard. When they are home, they connect the monitor, keyboard and mouse, close the lid on the laptop and press a key on the keyboard. Voila, the powerbook uses the nice big monitor just fine and so instant desktop.

I'll take as much power as I can get in my laptop, as long as I don't also sacrifice portability and battery life beyond reason, for some value of reason.

Paul

--

We witness not a fallen world, but falling every day - The Call.

This is the easiest iMac to access by mr_rangr · 2004-09-05 06:19 · Score: 5, Informative

Of the three styles of iMacs, this one is by *far* the easiest to work on. Loosening three screws lets you remove the rear panel for full access to the entire system. Here is a diagram of its insides.

Harman Kardon iSub Integration? by calstraycat · 2004-09-05 06:39 · Score: 2, Interesting

I've been using the H-K iSub subwoofer with my old G3 iMac for years now and I really like it. But, H-K stopped selling it separately when Apple took the speakers out of the iMac with the table lamp design.

I wonder if it would work with the new flat-panel design since they have put the speaker back into the design. I've searched around a bit for an answer, but haven't found any information.

I suppose I should just wait until it's in the stores and bring my iSub down and plug it in.

Re:eh...so its a laptop? by jeephistorian · 2004-09-05 06:59 · Score: 2, Informative

Yep. I do carry one big heavy laptop around when I need one. Comes with doing heavy work (graphics).

Do you work for Apple? I build systems for clients that are made to be upgraded down the road because many non-profits (who my clients tend to be) can't pay for a brand new system every few years. When I think "desktop", I think about a computer that can be upgraded.

The new iMac is just a heavy laptop without an itegrated keyboard/mouse. There would seem to be a line beyond which it is no longer a desktop and it becomes a "portable desktop" as they have come to call the heavy hitter laptops.

Fritz
__________

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Huh?

How about a used/refurbished Mac? by soldeed · 2004-09-05 07:27 · Score: 3, Interesting

Power Max computers carries an extensive selection of quality used and Apple certified reconditioned Macs in all models! You can pick up used ibooks, imacs, G4 graphite towers, even the G4 cube, at bargain prices! Go now! Look at all the perfectly good used macs $500.00 and up!

Almost perfect for a work desk by ducomputergeek · 2004-09-05 07:46 · Score: 2, Interesting

This is nearly perfect for an office enviroment. It has a small footprint and elegant "serious" look to it. I've had businesses look at macintosh iMac's before and say they look "Too playful" even though the machines did everything they needed without spending more on PowerMacs.

I've been using a powerbook because of its power and small profile for a couple years, but having a small profile and power of a G5 processor as well as price will make my next powerbook arguement much more difficult since I can get more at half the price.

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"The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money" - Thatcher.

no excuse. by Ralph+Spoilsport · 2004-09-05 08:52 · Score: 2, Insightful

Saying the Mac is too expensive is a load of hooey.

compare a machine to a Dell, just for fun. In fact, there's a website that does just that.

So let's look at the bottom of the barrel: a $650 computer.

Obviously, the eMac sucks at some things, but has benefits in others. And it's all of a dollar or two more expensive than the equivalent Dell, and lord knows an order of magnitude more attractive.

For what you get, Apple computers are competitively priced. You can argue little crappy pinheaded arguments over the details, but all things considered, they're not so bad.

From my experience, the SOFTWARE is what's expensive. Fuck - for the price of Photoshop and AVID DV Express, I can buy one helluva nice computer on EITHER platform.

The cost of hardware is comparatively incidental anymore.

Of course, Linux this and Linux that, Free here, Free There - been there, done that, and frankly spent WAY too much time dicking around with my computer to get a proper workflow going, and on top of it, most of the Linux software *just isn't up to snuff*. A lot of it has to do with patents (which is why GIMP can't do anything interesting in CMYK space, for example) and really lame ass UI design (which is why GIMP is such a pain in the arse to use, for example).

I still don't know of a decent NLE video system on Linux that does what FCP can do on the mac or AVID on Windows.

So - sure - save $200 on a Linux box - and GET NOTHING DONE.

At the same time: I FERVENTLY hope and pray that this will change - soon. I am NOT a bigot against Linus, by any stretch. At the same time, I won't get rid of my Mac - but I'll cheerfully stop using Windows as soon as Linux is easier and better and HAS THE SOFTWARE I NEED TO GET MY WORK DONE.

RS

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Shoes for Industry. Shoes for the Dead.

Re:no excuse. by Gannoc · 2004-09-05 14:37 · Score: 2, Insightful

From my experience, the SOFTWARE is what's expensive.

Thats actually what a lot of geeks forget too. They loudly complain that PCs are cheaper then macs... but forget that they've stolen Windows, Outlook, etc.

Re:This is what Jobs... by ljavelin · 2004-09-05 08:53 · Score: 3, Interesting

Excellent question.

The original problem with a flat-screen design was that it was just too bulky. The cooling system and power supply made it into a 6 inch thick unit - and to most people, 6 inches thick ain't a flatscreen.

I'd have to agree with Jobs - if you can't do it right, don't do it.

On the flipside, the new unit is nice. I just wish it'd come in more colors.

This bears repeating by theolein · 2004-09-05 09:46 · Score: 2, Interesting

I've found someone who will buy my old G4Powerbook 667MHz for $1200. If that isn't a good resale value, then I don't know what is.

My Commodore 64 can be carried around the house... by Dzimas · 2004-09-05 11:56 · Score: 2, Funny

And it doesn't need a fan. of course, the incredibly long serial cord connecting to the 1541 floppy drive is a bummer, but nothing a few rolls of duct tape couldn't fix.

Re:eh...so its a laptop? by BasilBrush · 2004-09-05 13:03 · Score: 3, Informative

The difference? A decent full travel keyboard, separate and therefore moveable in relation to the screen. A screen which is at a suitable height for viewing for full working days in front of it without damaging your health. But you already recognise that.
Add and remove parts? Standard HD, standard memory, both user upgradeable. Those are the common user upgrades. The only other common internal upgrade that isn't possible is changing a graphics card. Most other stuff is USB these days.
At one time people really used to care about having lots of slots in PCs to add internal upgrades. Those days are all but over.

The title should read... by kirk26 · 2004-09-05 13:10 · Score: 2, Funny

The title should read: "Apple VP defends iMac G5 Hardware Design"

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Linux sucks. It is an underground OS that is completely unstandardized. Linux geeks, get the fuck over yourselves.

Mac OS X ~= WinXP Pro by bill_mcgonigle · 2004-09-05 15:29 · Score: 3, Interesting

This is with Windows XP Home

Don't forget, Mac OS X includes most of the features that differentiate Windows XP Pro from Home - IPSec, Domain Support, Webserver, Multi-language support, SNMP, Simple TCP services, network monitor, etc.

This is important to anyone who does any telecommuting which is probably a significant subset of the iMac market (vs. eMac market).

So go ahead and add in XP Pro when you're doing the price comparison - Mac OS X has more value than XP Home.

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My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)

Re:Video Card is an Nvidia 5200... by Warlock7 · 2004-09-05 16:38 · Score: 2, Insightful

I'm sure that this is related to the heat dissipation capabilities of the machines new design. Most likely, if you put a better graphics card in the machine it would overheat the proc.

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Apple VP discusses iMac G5 Hardware Design

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