Solar Powered Computers Planned for Rural India

who would have thought... by calculadoru · 2004-09-08 14:43 · Score: 4, Insightful

...that it was going to be a nation as poor as India that would first try to use technology without damaging the environment? I get this nagging feeling some nations should take notice...

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The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it. -- G.B. Shaw

Re:who would have thought... by Daetrin · 2004-09-08 15:14 · Score: 2, Insightful

The fact that it's a "green" energy is really just a nice side effect. India is presumably doing it because it's much cheaper than trying to fix a the massive problems in their power grid.
When we've actually take the time to focus on it, we've been able to improve technology to do a lot more stuff with the same or less amount of energy, while at the same time improving our methods of generating and storing energy. This is making distributed energy generation feasible for people who want to live off the grid or for people who have no effective grid in the first place.
In other words this is a boon both for activists and poor countries with crappy infrastructure. It may mean that even if the US and other developed countries fall down on the job, some second or third world country may get around to building an energy web just by following the path of least resistance.

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Re:who would have thought... by Stephen+Samuel · 2004-09-08 19:15 · Score: 1

When you've got over a billion people in something 1/3 the size of the US, you can't really afford to be as careless with the environment as we are in North America.
As a friend of mine once commented: "If everybody in China started started using Toilet Paper like we do, The Planet would run out of trees in 4 years."
I think that that's a bit of an exageration, but it gets the point across.

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Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
Re:who would have thought... by Stephen+Samuel · 2004-09-08 19:36 · Score: 3, Insightful

The fact that it's a "green" energy is really just a nice side effect. India is presumably doing it because it's much cheaper than trying to fix a the massive problems in their power grid.
That's why places like Indonesia had a strong cell phone culture long before it became as big in North America -- they didn't have a choice.
It's SOOOO much easier to pop a microwave antenna and a cell tower on a pole somewhere and give everybody a cell phone than it is to run a wire to every house and end up with non-mobile service.
The only reason why wireline phone service is (was) cheaper than cell phones is that the vast majority of the infrastructure has been in place and paid for for decades. As a (phone company manager) friend of mine once said, once you've paid for the overhead, the rest of the usage is almost pure profit".
I can see similar effects taking place WRT 'off-grid' power production. If there's no grid to be off of, then it's a no-brainer.

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Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
Re:who would have thought... by 16K+Ram+Pack · 2004-09-08 21:01 · Score: 1

The biggest problem is that what the US does isn't just confined to the US.
I know there's some debate over the CO2 effects and all that, but if there is some effect, it isn't local.
Re:who would have thought... by jebell · 2004-09-08 23:56 · Score: 1

When you've got over a billion people in something 1/3 the size of the US, you can't really afford to be as careless with the environment as we are in North America.
Yes, this is why they take such good care of the Ganges River, well-known for its cleanliness and lack of fecal matter.
As a friend of mine once commented: "If everybody in China started started using Toilet Paper like we do, The Planet would run out of trees in 4 years."
On second thought, maybe you're right.

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Re:who would have thought... by fallenangel99 · 2004-09-09 04:27 · Score: 3, Informative

In Kerala, the southwest state of India, everybody has cellphones.. i mean everybody, even the fishermen!!!! When I was on vacation there, I saw numerous cell phone towers on top of buildings, kids, older people, taxi drivers, fishermen, etc all have cell phones. Its much cheaper AND easier to get a mobile phone. To get a land line phone, you had to sumbit a request with your town phone company. It would take anywhere from 1-3 years for you to get approved (heh in Kerala, you can see red commie flags all over, oh and our state gov't is Communist; CPI-M: Communist Party of India: Marxist). I know this because it took 3 years for us to get a phone. Now with mobile phones, its faster and nobody wants the landline phones. Plus, with a strong wind, the telephone poles would fall (and knocking off electricity too) and your landline wont work. O Yeah, the cell phones outside the U.S are wayy cooler. SMS (or text messaging as known in U.S) has been around since 1995 for the World. Its only catching up in the U.S now!

I don't agree with the fact that India is a "poor nation". Most states in India are self sufficient, meaning they have their own farms,cows for milk, crops for vegetables, food, etc. Other goods they can easily buy for cheap. Since these are produced in a farm that you own, they dont factor in the GDP (no exports or imports). That is why India's GDP is #30 or something like that
But if you use the PPP method (purchasing power parity) and count these self-sufficient households, India ranks #5 in the world!!!

I will use Kerala (my state, also National Geographics Top 10 Paradise in the world) as an example. In Kerala, about 99.99% of houses have land adjacent. They have lots of coconut trees, banana plants, vegetable gardens, cows for milk, chicken for eggs. No money is ever used for these products. Hence, they dont calcuate in the GDP.

Not only that, most people in Kerala save their money. They put it ALL in banks. You can see people having satellite dish's on their roofs.. and guess what? its FREE. All you have to do is buy the dish, pay for installation, and then its free to get over 200+ channels! Would such a thing exist in the U.S? No..Electricy: is very cheap. Only about 100 Rs for 2 months (about $2). Why? Kerala uses hydro plants but I dont really know why its cheap. They lose power about 3 times a week (just for 30mins-1hr). I think this , and many other reasons, is why people think India is "poor". People dont really spend money and dont want to give money. I am sure if the gov't wasnt corrupt and enforced income tax violations, charged a monthly fee for satellite dish, had more private competition, India would be very succesfull in the World. Before in India ALL you would see were Ambassador cars.. since India opened up to private cars, you can see Ford, Toyota, Benz, GM, Chevrolet, Opel, Tata on the roads (even though the roads suck!!!!)

Money cannot be "made" if people save it and not use it.. in the U.S people make money.. but they also spend so much for taxes, buying, etc. Hence, money is "recylced". No such thing in India.

Heck, the recent Indian elections were ALL electronic.. and the U.S cant even count paper ballots (re: Florida!)

Enough ranting.. =)
Re:who would have thought... by Phurd+Phlegm · 2004-09-09 04:54 · Score: 1

Heck, the recent Indian elections were ALL electronic.. and the U.S cant even count paper ballots (re: Florida!)
Gee, I bet the party running the place likes that. They probably save a bunch of that GDP by being able to run their recounts at the touch of a button . . . and the right guy still wins!
Next election will be further optimized by allowing people to remain home and have their votes automatically generated. This reduces reliance on transport, so it's green!

Wonder why 1000 pounds!? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-08 14:43 · Score: 4, Insightful

According to what I know at least 80% of it will be pocketed by corrupt politicians and other 'officials'.
That is the way things function in India.

Re:Wonder why 1000 pounds!? by melkorainur · 2004-09-08 15:15 · Score: 5, Interesting

This would likely have been true in the 1990s. But today, with a substantial increase in public education standards, as well as increased cooperation with non-govermental organizations (typically populated by well educated, well meaning young individuals), corruption has been on the decrease. Here's the stats on perceived corruption index. It shows India at 2.8. 10 is squeaky clean. UK, Canada at 8.7. US at 7.5. URL is here InfoPlease I would like to see rate of reduction of corruption. Overall, from talking with acquaintenances it has been on the decrease but clearly there's substantial room for improvement.
Re:Wonder why 1000 pounds!? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-08 18:04 · Score: 0

Either you have never been to India (or lived there), or you must smoke strong stuff to believe a number that can represent corruption levels for an entire country of one billion + people.
Re:Wonder why 1000 pounds!? by rseuhs · 2004-09-08 20:43 · Score: 1

According to your own link, India is worse at corruption than Ghana, Mali and Colombia and only marginally better than Mozambique and Ethiopia.
Re:Wonder why 1000 pounds!? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-08 21:57 · Score: 0

corruption has been on the decrease.

You dont live in India, do you?
Re:Wonder why 1000 pounds!? by deviq · 2004-09-09 00:26 · Score: 1

Look you dont know India thats why u r sayin this Yeah the amount of corruption has gone down but the state in question "UP" is considered to be one of the most corrupted in India second maybe after Bihar. Do u know why they dont have Electricity? Its not that hard cos they are right besides the nearly all the coal fired Power Stations in India. The mighty river of Ganga flows through the state and they are right besides the himalayas. And the IMF and WB were happy to give loans b4. But the politicians kept pocketing the money. And the problem just keeps getting worse. Consider the very fact that they were stupid enough to buy computers for the primary schools that dont have electricity. After that they thought of electricity. think about the farmer who has to carry water cos there's no power for pumps but his kids playing on the comp. Lets not be Happy. Lets first make sure that all have food water and shelter. Then lets go to the comps..... Knowing the political situation in UP I wouldn't think much of this venture. Its more probably all hype and wont work out.... Sad but thats how things work. dEV _________________________________________________ I am not pessimist I am an as*h*le
Re:Wonder why 1000 pounds!? by themadcaplaughs · 2004-09-09 00:53 · Score: 1

I am an Indian and I would say that the primary emotion which rushed through me after reading this post was surprise. Surprised I am how politicians can think of ingenious ways to siphon off public money. Anyone who is lived in this country should know well enough that none of the computers will ever see the light of the day.
And my friend, you talk of education contributing to the cause of reduction of education .. well for starts, Uttar Pradesh still boosts of a literacy rate of 30% (which by the way means that none of the teachers are computer literate). And then, secondly, education only ensures that there are more people who share the spoils of corruption. Accountability is what helio-centric would have been in the Dark Ages.
And, just for a moment, if the believer in you screams, maybe for once, the govt. is serious about this one, how many days do you give to the comps surviving in the schools ? Personally, I think a week would be an achievement.
One advise to the person who posted this post. I think you most probably are Indian. Even if the BBC folks were foolish enough to believe this would happen, you could not have been that naive. I am not against selling India to the world, but do not sell apples in Mac boxes.
Re:Wonder why 1000 pounds!? by Zorilla · 2004-09-09 01:00 · Score: 2, Funny

Somebody want to buy this guy an "enter" key?

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It would be cool if it didn't suck.
Re:Wonder why 1000 pounds!? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-09 01:02 · Score: 0

At 80% for the state of UP , one would be happy.....the reason why UP is so far behind the rest of India is because it is easily in the worst 3 states in India. No power, no water, no regular incomes. Guns sold and used on the streets....only Bihar is worse. In parts of UP, the gun rules all...and it is the local politicians who have encouraged it. It is the largest state in India, with the highest population (over 200 million) and is heading no where. This money is going to disappear, and even 20% would be a huge achievement. Its merely a populist stunt, to show that they are attempting to catch up with other states that have generated employment through sound policies like Karnataka (Bangalore) , AP (Hyderabad), TN (Chennai).
Watch this money and computers disappear in local ganglors houses faster than Windows can crash !
Re:Wonder why 1000 pounds!? by melkorainur · 2004-09-09 01:15 · Score: 1

You bring up fair points. I can't speak for UP. Nor can I speak for any specific Indian states. I can merely suggest that from what I observed during my visits; that corruption is on the way down. As I said, though, there is still huge room for improvement in accountability and corporate/governmental transparency. And I believe, very strongly, that it is all people: NGOs, NRIs, locals, governmental folk, Abdul Kalam, and others including American companies investing in India, that will slowly bring a halt to the disgraceful levels of bribery that manage to survive in the more shadowy corners of the Indian government.

Next by xedx · 2004-09-08 14:44 · Score: 2, Insightful

is figuring out how to get them internet access

Re:Next by MHleads · 2004-09-08 18:28 · Score: 2, Interesting

It is already there!

Sounds like the US by CAIMLAS · 2004-09-08 14:46 · Score: 2, Insightful

This sounds like the US: lots of expensive computers bought for schools where there is no need, no practical application for them all, or even a single fucking use, as there's way too many.

Computers are education's snake oil, and Microsoft the salesman.

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Re:Sounds like the US by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-08 14:47 · Score: 0

well we could always use more code monkeys to outsource to.
Re:Sounds like the US by dark404 · 2004-09-08 14:55 · Score: 4, Insightful

yeah because a computer is a resource that only has a few functions, so the schools need to have a specific use in mind before they buy them. I mean it's not like they could buy a bunch of them, and place them in some sort of "Lab" where students could use them when they needed them?
Re:Sounds like the US by lskziq · 2004-09-08 15:02 · Score: 2, Informative

Ummm. There's nothing in the article about MS sponsoring this. In fact, based purely on my own experience from grade-school to grad-school, Macs make up the lion's share of computers in US public schools. But that's all besides the point: this is article is about novel power sources for schools.
Re:Sounds like the US by barzok · 2004-09-08 15:05 · Score: 3, Insightful

Except they don't just know how to use them with zero instruction. And the schools lack a curriculum for educating them in the use of the computers, or lack any practical applications of them.

I saw this when I was volunteering at a local school about 18 months ago. We were getting donated PCs cleaned up and usable so that each classroom would have a computer. What did the teachers intend to do with them? "Oh we don't know yet, but we want the computers. We can use PowerPoint to put our lesson plans on the TV in the classroom, right?" The PCs that were already in the school that we were supplementing were all loaded with spyware, games, and other assorted crap that made the machines barely usable (or in some cases, unbootable entirely).

I'm not expecting the school to have a specific use in mind - but at the very least, have some practical reason for laying out the time and money. You don't buy a car and then say "hmmm....now, what will I do with this thing?" - you identify a need for personal transportation, then purchase the device that helps you achieve that goal.
Re:Sounds like the US by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-08 15:10 · Score: 0

You wish that happened. In my school, each classroom got one computer so that they could brag to the press, then the students weren't alowed to use them and the teachers didn't know how to use them.
Re:Sounds like the US by CosmeticLobotamy · 2004-09-08 15:15 · Score: 1

A computer lab would be great for these kids. It would teach them valuable word processing skills. Pens and pencils are so damn inefficient in the business world that these kids will be thrust into just as soon as they hook up some electricity to anywhere near where they live.

We might as well give them get to work giving them solar powered Tivos while we're at it.
Re:Sounds like the US by Relifram · 2004-09-08 15:29 · Score: 1

I couldn't agree more. As an educator (in the miltary not the public school system, but similar principles apply) I have seen time and time again, instructors and students being forced to use computers to "enhance" their teaching/learning. In the end most instructors and students get fed up with all the technology that is being forced down their throats and revert back to the good old books, paper and pencils. Computers are a tool, and like any tool they have a specific place. I'm not saying that computers cannot enhance learning, but their implementation should be carefully weighed against the other (cheaper, more user friendly) options like -god forbid- books.
Re:Sounds like the US by russint · 2004-09-08 15:39 · Score: 2, Insightful

Except they don't just know how to use them with zero instruction. And the schools lack a curriculum for educating them in the use of the computers, or lack any practical applications of them.

So let them learn by them selves? Kids are great at learning and exploring new things.

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Re:Sounds like the US by orpx · 2004-09-08 16:21 · Score: 1

they are much better doing so with some direction, and not a arrogant babbling teacher who doesnt want to look stupid
Re:Sounds like the US by russint · 2004-09-08 16:24 · Score: 1

Well..
1.) Remove the obviously incompetent teacher
2.) Problem solved

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^^
Re:Sounds like the US by orpx · 2004-09-08 16:26 · Score: 1

obviously, but that's not what happens.
Re:Sounds like the US by russint · 2004-09-08 16:37 · Score: 1

Yeah I know, that sucks.

Reminds me of a kid in my school who got banned from using any computers for several months because he showed the admin that poledit on win95 boxes wasn't really going to stop anybody from doing what they wanted (start -> run -> poledit -> change any policy you want). Appearently, he was a "troublemaker".

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Re:Sounds like the US by orpx · 2004-09-08 17:04 · Score: 1

Yep, another instance where the Administrator(teacher) didnt want to look stupid, so he labeled the kid a trouble-maker(terrorist). I'd like to think of them as a helpful advisor on why things are not like they are supposed to be. What sucks is that this teacher's 1493666 coup-out is just another one for theirself, but it unintentionally leaves the kid thinking they are malmannered.
Re:Sounds like the US by ImaLamer · 2004-09-08 17:36 · Score: 1

lots of expensive computers bought for schools where there is no need, no practical application for them all, or even a single fucking use, as there's way too many.

How else are they going to train those Dell support reps?

(and if you think they don't do this still do this you haven't called Dell lately...)

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Re:Sounds like the US by dasunt · 2004-09-08 20:55 · Score: 1

And the schools lack a curriculum for educating them in the use of the computers, or lack any practical applications of them.

I saw this when I was volunteering at a local school about 18 months ago.

Don't forget the cost issues. I have math, grammer, composition, and spelling textbooks that are over 50 years old and are still relevant. I don't have a usable computer that is over 10 years old. Guess which was more expensive?

With proper teaching, I see a place for some computers in an education setting. However, most learning can be done with a greater degree of success in a traditional classroom, at a lower cost. Computer proficiency is nice, but I wasn't taught typing until junior high (on some rather old IBM typewriters), and I didn't own a computer until sr. high, yet my computer skills haven't suffered.
Re:Sounds like the US by 16K+Ram+Pack · 2004-09-08 21:26 · Score: 2, Insightful

Relifram,
I remember seeing some education software for schools some years ago, and across the board it was rubbish.
The UK curriculum, led by the dear leader Tony Blair is very big on kids using computers. It's the same as that Simpsons episode about the monorail - spend millions on something shiny rather than dealing with the real issues.
I think the money spent on computers in schools would generally be better spent on more teachers, allowing class sizes to be reduced.
What makes no sense to me is that PCs are very much a solo activity - it's you interacting with the computer. How does that really fit in with a classroom situation well?
One argument I've heard is that people need computers for work, but then that brings in the question of the purpose of education. Even viewing education as producing children for workplaces, you have to then accept that a whole heap of jobs like childcare, plumbing, construction, haulage and some of the creative industries actually have very little use of computers. General call centre work is an oversubscribed industry (partly a result of people thinking that office work would remain as a high earner) and things like plumbers, builders, "creatives" and nannies are in undersubscribed. Teaching kids how to use computers (as in general use and not programming or multimedia) is like teaching someone in the 19th century how to operate a loom.
I also have myself tried to use CBT packages for software, and nothing replaces being taught a subject by an expert - even on a cost/benefit basis, I still think that a tutor wins.
Re:Sounds like the US by Paulrothrock · 2004-09-09 01:05 · Score: 1

Do you remember trips to the computer "lab" as a student? It consisted of taking ten minutes to herd the class down the hall, then watching the instructor fumble with equipment that they didn't know how to use and/or didn't work while the more technically savvy students had the assignment finished already and got nothing out of it, and who walked everyone else through the task while they got nothing out of it except learning that a couple people were good with computers.
Computers could be useful, but only if they're used all the time by every student. Recent successes in Maine with their iBook program show that students will figure out new uses for the computers to solve their own problems.
Computing shouldn't be a class, it should be a tool, like graphing calculators. You don't herd everyone up and drag them down to a room to use the graphic calculator, do you?

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Isle of Wight by Hatta · 2004-09-08 14:47 · Score: 2, Funny

Well, if they have enough power for Jimi Hendrix, shouldn't they have enough power for a computer lab?

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Solar Power + wifi by IoN_PuLse · 2004-09-08 14:49 · Score: 5, Interesting

Sounds like an interesting networking idea =)

I'm afraid I don't understand... by The+Master+Control+P · 2004-09-08 14:50 · Score: 5, Insightful

They're buying a thousand, and now another thousand computers and showing the teachers how to use them... but most people are fortunate to have enough electric power to run a light bulb at night? Somehow the logic behind that escapes me...

I mean, I'm all for computers for the poor, but first things first... clean water and electric power.

Re:I'm afraid I don't understand... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-08 15:01 · Score: 3, Insightful

What the fsck good is a lightbulb if you are still stuck in the third world? Hmm, a lightbulb at night (which these people have ALWAYS lived without) or my child's education. Tough one.

Indians know they can make money doing computer work. I've seen companies in the US that were almost exclusively Indian's with visas. We also outsource a ton of stuff over there.

I tell you right now, if my daughter was starving and I wanted a better way of life for her, I'd give up lightbulbs, sewers, shelter and whatever the fsck else it took to make sure she could afford those things in the future.
Re:I'm afraid I don't understand... by melkorainur · 2004-09-08 15:06 · Score: 5, Insightful

> I mean, I'm all for computers for the poor, but first things first... clean water and electric power.
If only things were that easy. You have to remember that building infrastructure is extremely capital intensive. You can only do that if you've got a good budget surplus, and that's something that the Indian government does not have because 1) low tax rate 2) poor tax enforcement quality 3) corruption. Further, very few Indian government officials are altruistic enough to care about development of rural areas [although that has changed significantly due to India's last election results]. I should note that corruption is also decreasing thanks to increasing education standards and knowledge amoung the poor. Also thanks to NGOs that work to address the issue. But there is a tonne more work to be done in that area.
I think the main idea is to drive the demand for infrastructure by all means possible. You give these rural areas a look at computers, an idea of how they can help. You give the teachers in the rural ideas a view of the future. You let them inspire the children and the parents. The next thing you know, the infrastructure demands will increase and slowly but surely it'll get done.
So yeah, first things first is fair enough. They're just trying a different approach to solve the problem. Drive rural demand up and these folk may just get there. You've got to remember things are not that simple when you don't have a spare billion dollars that you can throw at the problem.
Re:I'm afraid I don't understand... by drinkypoo · 2004-09-08 15:12 · Score: 1

Yeah, and we have parts of the US that are total slums but we're going to spend a shitload of money rebuilding Iraq which we just leveled again. This sometimes leads to the speculation that maybe if the ghettos got bombed, we'd spend some money on them.

However: We will all come into the future together or we will not come into the future. Everyone does not learn to run at the same speed: Others are already sprinting while some jog, some can only walk, and some are yet crawling. Just because some people are still crawling doesn't mean we shouldn't help people go from walking to jogging, if not jogging to sprinting.

Without educating people, they will remain in poverty because they have no idea how to escape it even if they can come by the means.

--
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Re:I'm afraid I don't understand... by swillden · 2004-09-08 15:29 · Score: 1

I mean, I'm all for computers for the poor, but first things first... clean water and electric power.
First things first, yes. And the thing to put first is education.
Clean water, electricity and education are all things that you can live without, but education will eventually solve the other two problems.
Are computers the best way to spend scarce education dollars? That's debatable, I suppose. Personally, though, I'm willing to grant that they probably know what they need better than I do.

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Re:I'm afraid I don't understand... by WhatAmIDoingHere · 2004-09-08 15:30 · Score: 1

Well, if you gave the things you list up.. your lives will be shortened by disease, because your own waste will not be piped off and you would also be exposed to the elements without that shelter.

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Re:I'm afraid I don't understand... by Skjellifetti · 2004-09-08 16:29 · Score: 1

Clean water, electricity and education are all things that you can live without, but education will eventually solve the other two problems.

Without clean water, the children get dysentery and other nasty diseases that can kill them long before they can be educated well enough to figure out how to solve their own problems. Trust me. I lived in rural India for a while. You don't want to drink the tap water. This is analogous to the problem that led the US to develop its school lunch program. Without good nutrition, the children were not learning.

Think of it as a computer engineering problem. You want to put all of your efforts into speeding up the cpu. This is not very useful if the cpu is starved because no money was spent building a memory system to support it. Development requires a package of stuff all done together. And the package contents must vary depending on local circumstances.

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Re:I'm afraid I don't understand... by kfg · 2004-09-08 16:41 · Score: 3, Insightful

What the fsck good is a lightbulb if you are still stuck in the third world?

Being able to see at night and plug a radio into the socket included in the light fixture, just like in the rest of the world.

Third world doesn't mean stone age, unless, of course, you don't have a lightbulb. It's the lightbulb that makes the difference.

I've lived in the third world in houses without and without lightbulbs and with and without indoor plumbing. The inclusion of a lightbulb is a far more desirable advancment than indoor plumbing.

KFG
Re:I'm afraid I don't understand... by grims · 2004-09-08 16:56 · Score: 1

>I mean, I'm all for computers for the poor, but first things first... clean water and electric power.

This is a classic view of computer people where EVERYTHING has to be JUST right to go on to the next step - without 1 and 2 dont even think of 3. Agreed basic water and electricity would be a comfortable thing to have, but people are still living there and things like computers make them think a step ahead of where they should logically be. For the poor street kids it gives some hope - some accomplishment - even if it means playing minefield or using notepad! sure they would go back to their sweaty mud houses, but i bet they would line up for a better score the next day.

Never underestimate the capability of hope.
Re:I'm afraid I don't understand... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-08 17:12 · Score: 0

Netcraft confirms it, India's power grid is dying.

In a recent poll, Netcraft shows that India's power grid has less than 10% of the market. The other 90% is dominated by the soil, the elements and a monkey that is feverishly pedaling to keep the lights running.
Re:I'm afraid I don't understand... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-08 17:19 · Score: 0

A radio, I'll give you. There could be some real benefit from that.

As for light at night, candles and oil lamps have been used for longer than lightbulbs have been around. They suck compared to lightbulbs, but if that's all you've ever lived with, what would you care?

Again, would you rather provide for your children's future or would you rather have a lightbulb to see at night when you:

1. Already have the means.
2. Have no real pressing need to see at night.
Re:I'm afraid I don't understand... by swillden · 2004-09-08 18:18 · Score: 1

Without clean water, the children get dysentery and other nasty diseases that can kill them long before they can be educated well enough to figure out how to solve their own problems. Trust me. I lived in rural India for a while.
And I lived in the jungles of southern Mexico for a couple of years, where the issue is the same.
With proper care -- which requires *education* and discipline -- you can live just fine with bad water (as long as the problem is biological, not poisonous chemicals).
And the package contents must vary depending on local circumstances.
This is certainly true.

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Re:I'm afraid I don't understand... by kfg · 2004-09-08 18:29 · Score: 2, Informative

A radio, I'll give you. There could be some real benefit from that.

It comes with the lightbulb.

As for light at night, candles and oil lamps have been used for longer than lightbulbs have been around.

Ironically, here in the first world, within sight of where the first carbon filiment lightbulb was made and where until a few years ago 90% of the entire worlds electrical generators were made I rely on oil lamps, but back them up with lightbulbs.

They suck compared to lightbulbs

No they don't. They have certain advantages, but do have certain disadvantages. Fire risk is one of them, especially if you have children around the house. Mine had grown up and left.

would you rather provide for your children's future or would you rather have a lightbulb to see at night when you:

Why do you think I want the lightbulb?

1. Already have the means.

Third world does not in any imply you don't have the means, but even if you have the means first you may well need the infrastructure.

2. Have no real pressing need to see at night.

How about reading to your kids and helping them with their schoolwork, in a low fire risk enviroment?

KFG
Re:I'm afraid I don't understand... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-08 22:02 · Score: 0

They are only buying the computers so that the politicians and 'officials' can steal more of taxpayer's money. Thats how it works -- whenever they feel like they need another pile of cash they start another oproject for the 'welfare' of the people.
Re:I'm afraid I don't understand... by littlem · 2004-09-08 22:23 · Score: 1

You give these rural areas a look at computers, an idea of how they can help. You give the teachers in the rural ideas a view of the future. You let them inspire the children and the parents. The next thing you know, the infrastructure demands will increase and slowly but surely it'll get done.

And of course, if they're used to computers from a young age, think how much Western companies can save when they come to train them as call-centre workers...
Re:I'm afraid I don't understand... by kirkjobsluder · 2004-09-09 03:52 · Score: 1

Why are the two competitive. I'm willing to bet that the same projects that distribute solar and human-powered computers to underdeveloped countries, are also allied with projects that distribute solar-powered lanterns and projects that develop safe water projects.

There is also the factor that solar technology is currently cheaper than expanding power grids into rural areas.
Re:I'm afraid I don't understand... by paxmark1 · 2004-09-09 06:31 · Score: 1

In the Caribbean, people are starting to set up solar photovoltaics and 12 v car batteries to run cell phones. If someone in the semi isolated village sets it up, then others can pay them to use the cell phone for a call. Eventually it pays for itself. And maybe hook it up to a washing machine.

This is happening in Kenya also.

Photovoltaics are finally at that breakeven point that getting them in and in use will spur much more usage.

And the great thing about photovoltaics is that once you go that route, you are constantly lookng at keeping your wattage down. "Vampire" appliances and other power hungry items are deprecated in favor of lower wattage and 12 and 5 volt dc items.

Peace, Mark
Re:I'm afraid I don't understand... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-10 07:56 · Score: 0
I mean, I'm all for computers for the poor, but first things first... clean water and electric power.
The plan:
- Get computer.
- Get outsourced job
- Make money
- Use money to buy clean water supplies for village.

Good for them... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-08 14:50 · Score: 2, Interesting

...even though it would probably cost less to place a landline from a major power substation to the area where these computers are supposed to be. Solar power is still damned expensive, and it has its limitations.

Re:Good for them... by dbIII · 2004-09-08 17:40 · Score: 1

even though it would probably cost less to place a landline from a major power substation
India is bigger than Texas. Electricity infrastructure is expensive.
Solar power is still damned expensive, and it has its limitations.
This is the ideal application - a long way from power lines, only needed in daylight and no power factor problems to change the phase - even DC would do the job.
Re:Good for them... by MikeCapone · 2004-09-08 17:59 · Score: 1

I don't think you understand just how expensive landlines are. If they could just build them, they'd do that and they wouldn't just power the computers in a few school but a whole bunch of houses.

--
Treehugger? Treehugger... Treehugger!
Re:Good for them... by WOV · 2004-09-09 02:58 · Score: 2, Informative

"Probably" indicates an unresearched assumption...$8,000 - $10,000 per kilometer (EEI, EPRI, others,) just to string wires, over relatively unchallenging terrain, in the West, with skilled preexisting crews, from an existing power station, assuming there is a major power substation, then gives you the right to begin *paying* the power bill. Since few or none of these conditions exist pervasively in rural India, let's say the high end of that.

Meanwhile, an off-grid solar system (if you get it from, e.g. India's new homegrown PV industry) - panels, charge controller, racks, and batteries - will cost you about $8 / Watt. For distributed small loads (and by "small" here, I mean up to the sort of village power scale - 50,000 Watts or so - solar power is generally cheaper on an *installation* basis than conventional power sources, even before you account for O&M and fuel costs. Beyond that scale, even something like a natural gas microturbine (see Capstone et al.
In the US, these DG projects have a major financial disadvantage due to the existence of the grid - built in large part as a massive public works / employment project during the New Deal. In the developing world, with dispersed, rapidly growing populations, DG makes more sense, provided people can get past the wires and stacks mentality.

I would say "damned expensive" is no longer quite true...In 1976, 1 WWatt of solar power "retailed" for about $60 / Watt. In 1986, $10 / Watt, in 2004, bulk buy, about $3. (It's the batteries, balance-of-system stuff, and labor that more than doubles that.

And remember, solar power is "right now"/"I brought it in on the yak" power, not "wait for four years, we'll build a power plant and associated rail line and get the grid right over those Himalayas to you." power....that has real value, as well.

tools by celeritas_2 · 2004-09-08 14:51 · Score: 3, Insightful

Computers are overrated as an educational tool. I think it would be much more important and helpful to have electric lights than access to sex.com. Overrated this post is. as Yoda would say. But really paying to educating teachers in india more, and providing better facilities would help more than a room full of Apple IIs

--
-- Checking emails and kicking cheats `till the day I die.

Re:tools by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-08 15:27 · Score: 0

I think it would be much more important and helpful to have electric lights than access to sex.com
You just don't get it do you?
Re:tools by MHleads · 2004-09-08 18:44 · Score: 1

May be you are right. But, in India, there is hell lot of excitement about computers, especially in rural areas. Computers may fail as education tool, but they will bring more kids to schools. Computers have succeeded where most of the government schemes have failed miserably.
Re:tools by manavendra · 2004-09-08 20:33 · Score: 2, Interesting

>Computers are overrated as an educational tool.

That's not entirely true. About 15 years ago, in my school in a then-rural town (which is now a city) in India, they had introduced computers. Not many people knew anything about it, not the teachers even. They all had a basic understanding of how it worked, how to boot up (those were dos 2.1 or so days) and basic troubleshooting. FYI, these were old IBM busybee computers (if I remember correctly).

However, the school went about teaching "computers" in the same way everything else was addressed - starting with the basic first. The first year we spent understanding a lot of theory (admittely a part of learning was by rote), however, second year onwards they started teaching us to program (using BASICA or GWBASIC). This immediately changed the entire perspective towards computers. Whereas earlier when we (us students, the kids) would be happy to just spend a while fiddling with the keyboard or being in awe at the capability to delete characters as well on the screen (the earliest thing we had seen was the typewriter), now, there were hordes of students spending extra hours after school doing their assignments, learning programming fundamentals, etc. Sure, we weren't great programmers or weren't working on anything mission critical, but those computers made a hell of a lotta difference in our lives.

In the subsequent years, not only almost every other school got the computers, the students graduated with a reasonable computer background, and went on to take better paying jobs. I can go on and on about the benefits...

>but really paying to educating teachers in india more, and providing better facilities would help more than a room full of Apple IIs Teachers in India are paid a reasonably good salary. In fact, most women prefer teaching jobs since they are not too onerous, give them a number of benefits (the state covers the medical bills, and though you go to the state-owned hospitals, the doc appointments can he had within a day's notice usually). Secondary school (or high school) teachers, degree-level teachers and professors get paid even better of course.

However, I agree on better facilities. Sure, that'd make a big difference, but it's a long way in coming. I like to think that computers changed my small town in so many different ways (it is now one of the hubs of computer education in that part of my state, the jobs are plenty and people even freelance producing utility software for local businesses), and I'm sure the government is keen to replicate that model

--
http://efil.blogspot.com/
Re:tools by lamona · 2004-09-09 03:03 · Score: 1

Remember that Internet access is more than web sites. It can be used to transmit radio, to make phone calls, to get news, to exchange email with a medical expert. In other words, the Internet can bring a number of important services to a rural area. You want people to have clean water? Well, they need to know what they can do to promote cleaner water (a few drops of bleach, boiling, etc.). International agencies, like the UN, the World Bank, etc., promote information campaigns for developing countries. Internet access could be part of that.

--
I just read /. for the amusing .sigs
Re:tools by celeritas_2 · 2004-09-09 14:26 · Score: 1

Your post is very interesting. First off I'd like to clarify that I think teaching _with_ computers is overrated, such as teaching a forign language, or math skills. This is mostly because Educational software is generally mediocre at best, and in the ways I've seen it implemented, it means instead of a teacher teaching your [gasp] a teacher is sitting in the back the whole day watching you at the computer.
I am impressed with your school's computer education. What you learned 15 years ago is more than anyone [around here at least] could learn in public schools today. As of 1996 my small midwest US school still had a lab of Apple II's which they used for keyboarding. The most advamced computer class was working with Excel spreadsheets which few people understood or remembered.

--
-- Checking emails and kicking cheats `till the day I die.

Solar powered computers? by stratjakt · 2004-09-08 14:51 · Score: 1

Wow.

Every summer we can rent a cottage in the Isle of Wight! (If it's not to dear)

--
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!

Re:Solar powered computers? by EugeneK · 2004-09-08 19:27 · Score: 1

but you'll need to scrimp and save.
Re:Solar powered computers? by hobbsbutcher · 2004-09-08 22:10 · Score: 1

Come on people - It's funny.
"When I'm 64" from Sargent Pepper's Lonely Heart's Club Band

--
Jonathan B.

Call centres rejoice! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-08 14:52 · Score: 0

Now all the call centres moving from the US to India will finally be able to type out our complaints instead of scribbling them on notepads. Now if we could just get their PCs to include voice recognition software which would convert their strong accents to the accent of the person calling in, they could say their answers into a microphone on the computer and hold their handset up to their PC speakers.

Re:Why not generate power... by nodwick · 2004-09-08 14:54 · Score: 3, Interesting

It's been tried already - 5 minutes of computing for one minute of pedaling.

Having just returned from the gym, I can't help but think of the clustering possibilities of a long row of treadmills and elliptical skiers ...

Whatever you have to do to drag yourself up by gelfling · 2004-09-08 14:54 · Score: 3, Insightful

This is a good thing because whatever you have to do to rise yourself up out of this shit is good. If you have to bring in solar panels, burn trash, slaughter a chicken, what-the-fuck-ever.

In 10 years your boss or your senator will be one of these people who absofuckinglutely will not be denied.

Also in PNG by joeldixon66 · 2004-09-08 14:56 · Score: 5, Informative

This is a great idea, something similar has been happening in the Paupa New Guinea highlands - link.

Perhaps they could also harness the power of flies?

Re:Also in PNG by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-08 15:03 · Score: 0

Perhaps they could also harness the power of flies? Ask and you will receive, my slashdotting friend. Fly powered bot
Re:Also in PNG by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-08 16:15 · Score: 0

Hmm, an Apple flyMac?

Sorry.

Re:This is a new thing?? by WhiteDeath · 2004-09-08 14:57 · Score: 1

ooh, lookee, first post! and in my first hour as a subscriber too :)

DOH!

Its Truly Amazing by a5cii · 2004-09-08 14:57 · Score: 1, Funny

no, no not the fact that they are going to power so much schools and equipment with solar power but that somehow they are using the technology in the UK

its well known that we dont have enough sun, even when we pray at stonehenge

Power by sakusha · 2004-09-08 14:58 · Score: 1, Troll

They want to give solar powered computers to schools with no electric power? You realize this means they have no refrigeration or electric lights?

When you have no refrigeration, you get more deaths from food poisoning and malnutrition. These people don't need computers, they need basic electric applicances like a refrigerator and indoor lights FIRST.

Re:Power by Tablizer · 2004-09-08 16:56 · Score: 1

When you have no refrigeration, you get more deaths from food poisoning and malnutrition. These people don't need computers, they need basic...

At least now they can google for the cause of death

--
Table-ized A.I.
Re:Power by Aardpig · 2004-09-08 18:03 · Score: 2, Insightful

These people don't need computers, they need basic electric applicances like a refrigerator and indoor lights FIRST.

From personal experience, kerosine-powered fridges and lamps are far, far better options than electrically-powered equivalents. They can be repaied using local know-how, and distribution networks for kerosene are typically already well established in developing countries.

It's always best to save the electricity for those items that absolutely need it. Computers fall into this category, fridges and lights do not.

--
Tubal-Cain smokes the white owl.

Well... by inertia187 · 2004-09-08 14:59 · Score: 2, Funny

I've had mine for a while now, and it's great. Until it gets dark, like right about n

--
A programmer is a machine for converting coffee into code.

Re:Well... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-08 21:31 · Score: 0

How did you hit submit, you twat? ;)
Re:Well... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-09 04:57 · Score: 0

The message was complete when it was sent, but due to the loss of power, the packets got damaged. Lucky it wasn't damaged so much that the message was completely lost.

Re:Why not generate power... by NarrMaster · 2004-09-08 15:03 · Score: 3, Funny

What is this "the gym" you speak of?

--
That's right. All your base.

Use the flies powered fuel cell by mache · 2004-09-08 15:04 · Score: 4, Funny

Didn't we just see a robot powered by a fly digesting fuel cell. The heck with solar power. India has plenty of flies. Just power the school's computer lab with flies.

-- Mache

Re:Use the flies powered fuel cell by drinkypoo · 2004-09-08 15:16 · Score: 1

Maybe they can attract the flies with dead bodies. Or, maybe they can make it run on corpses...

--
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Re:Use the flies powered fuel cell by Prof.Phreak · 2004-09-08 15:56 · Score: 1

Or, maybe they can make it run on corpses...

The ultimate `human powered' concept...

--
"If anything can go wrong, it will." - Murphy

In other news by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-08 15:06 · Score: 1, Funny

Cooked Squirrel Technology Planned for Rural Arkansas.

Re:In other news by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-08 19:02 · Score: 0

tv funhouse reference?

Mouth, Esophogus, Stomach, Gall Bladder, Small Intestine, Large Intestine, Rectum, Anus

Mom Eats Squirrel Guts Because She Is Living In Rural Arkansas

Donations? by holysin · 2004-09-08 15:07 · Score: 4, Interesting

Um, am I completely blind or is there no link to donate, or number to call to donate? Yes, I know this is the comerical world and most of us don't care about the rest of the planet. But there's a few of us that do. Hell, I'd donate $20 now, and that makes me wonder how many others would... A lot of people don't want to donate to the christian childrens funds because they tend to push religion down people's throats.

Re:Donations? by melkorainur · 2004-09-08 15:48 · Score: 2, Insightful

Donating money is not the best way for you to help. Instead of donating money, just help create a free, fair society. Let's say your hardware firm needs linux device drivers or hardware designed or software or whatever, don't just consider European and American companies, give a thought to Indian companies too. Prevent governments from instituting unfair tarrifs and sanctions [lookup US textile tarrifs and you'll see why it's cheaper and better [quality included] to make tee-shirts in India than in the US]. Vote for representatives that speak the truth, and truly care for building a better world. I've heard good things about Obama for Illinois, for example. That's the best way you can help. Punish large multinational organizations that do unfair things like attempt to bribe officials [Haliburton, Enron]. Bribery starts there, their money funds the weapons used by illegitimate governements/officials to hold back the civillian populace.
Re:Donations? by dmitrygr · 2004-09-08 15:59 · Score: 1

How hard is it to setup some sort of a donation box?

--
-------
1. Enjoy your job
2. Make lots of money
3. Work within the law

Choose any two.
Re:Donations? by holysin · 2004-09-08 16:20 · Score: 1

Oh I completely agree. In the long run helping society adjust is the most important thing. However, one of the key steps along that path is to directly help people who need it. And if you can help by cutting back on a couple big macs for a week, it will help people directly, while you continue to try to help them indirectly :)
Re:Donations? by meringuoid · 2004-09-08 21:58 · Score: 1

Let's say your hardware firm needs linux device drivers or hardware designed or software or whatever, don't just consider European and American companies, give a thought to Indian companies too. Prevent governments from instituting unfair tarrifs and sanctions
And people say there's too much groupthink on Slashdot... a post favouring competition from the Indian IT industry, and against government protectionism.
Wow, that's not going to make any friends. FWIW, I agree, though...

--
Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
Re:Donations? by gobbo · 2004-09-09 01:38 · Score: 1

Donating money is not the best way for you to help.
Some people have more money than time, let them share it where they will... do it wisely, and donating money is always effective.
Everyone has a responsibility to develop a more open society, build a better caring world, expose corporate misconduct, eliminate corruption, blah blah blah no kidding.
Fundamental changes in oneself are also in order, not just economic institutions: a trans-patriotic internationalism that is based on the friendly competition we admire, and an effort to widen our own cultural framework to accept the mindset of other societies, and work on commonalities. Eliminate the tariffs in your mind. This is a particular challenge for melting pot societies like the USA, since there's a vested interest in bringing all that diversity under some umbrella norms that thus need to be invisible (I think this is the source of the legendary parochialism of the average US citizen). Until then, take advantage of your currency privilege and spread those yankee dollars around the globe in good effective projects!

--
Damn those pesky terrorists

Just what we need more Indian computer users by NotQuiteReal · 2004-09-08 15:15 · Score: 2, Funny

Isn't the usual slashdot instinct to bemoan computer jobs going to India? This is where it starts.

With a little training your job can be outsourced to someone moonlighing on a solar powered computer in a school in India. Damn, those jobs must suck.

--
This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.

Re:Just what we need more Indian computer users by lewko · 2004-09-08 15:29 · Score: 1

That's what's ingenious about it... How can you moonlight, by moonlight?

No sunlight = no coding.

--
Do you or your partner snore? - Visit www.snoring.com.au
Re:Just what we need more Indian computer users by frizzbit · 2004-09-08 15:49 · Score: 1

yes but think about what that $20 a week can do for that Indian and his community.
Re:Just what we need more Indian computer users by WateryGrave · 2004-09-08 23:52 · Score: 1

"Honey, they called me into work today. It's cloudy in Uttar Pradesh."
Re:Just what we need more Indian computer users by zardor · 2004-09-09 00:18 · Score: 1

Hmm, they must be very efficient panels if they work by moonlight!

--
-- We don't understand software, and sometimes we don't understand hardware, but we can *see* the blinking lights
Re:Just what we need more Indian computer users by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-09 01:15 · Score: 0

Hmm, they must be very efficient panels if they work by moonlight!

Not to nitpick here, but 'moonlight' is simply sunlight reflecting off the moon. The moon itself produces no light, so 'moonlight' is a bit of a misnomer.

Great by be-fan · 2004-09-08 15:19 · Score: 1, Funny

Now rural villagers can take our jobs!

--
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...

Someone put the CRT before the horse. by Artifakt · 2004-09-08 15:20 · Score: 3, Interesting

Getting the machines before the power infrastructure is in place is dumb, and NOT just for the obvious reason (having invested a lot of money into something that will take success with a second investment to become useful is always risky). It's dumb because having electricity in those isolated areas is useful for so many other things besides computers, it should have happened already.
There's tons of medical equipment that requires at least a little power, there's basic emergency communications, and there's all the simpler school supplies that require electricity. If none of these things justified getting some power to these people, computers in the classroom doesn't either.
We're not just talking relatively high powered systems (such as x-ray machines) that are the equivalent of entire desktop computer labs either. What about small centrifuges or cautery equipment for medicine? What about having enough radio for local government to report being hit by a bad storm or earthquake? What about a few lights to read by, so that school can be held indoors when it rains?
There are no compact, low energy computer systems that are any more efficient than those devices, and there are even surpluses of many of those devices in storage where they have been replaced by newer gear. Just imagine all the old filmstrip projectors or drafting tables in various urban school systems closets being put to use out in the country instead of gathering dust.

--
Who is John Cabal?

Re:Someone put the CRT before the horse. by gordo3000 · 2004-09-08 21:38 · Score: 2, Informative

just to tell you, most things in india are that way. My parents grew up in india and I have been there more times that I can actually count, and I have had many times where we don't have reliable power, there are beggars outside the front door on the street, and there is a computer in the household. Its the way it works, India is the country that seemed to miss out on the 20th century(a line taken from my dad).

This is how india improves itself, massive poverty, massive infrastructure and road problems, and yes, people still using that cart and horse at times in larger cities, and then guess where lots of high tech jobs go. Its hard to believe, but its how India see's its future going. Its a strong belief that if someone can get a good education, that next generation can go live somewhere with a decent power supply and clean water. Its really driving towards that future. Now, if things like textile industries weren't foolishly protected in the US(namely, making me pay a higher price for clothing) these 3rd world countries would improve even faster because what infrastructure they do have becomes a lot more profitable and they can expand faster.

Don't underestimate how hard it is to provide power to rural india. It's no small task and my uncle who lives there for the longest time had on site generators for his farm(large plantation, and actually my mother's uncle, though I make no distinction). It takes years to put these things up. Imagine, no matter how advanced we are, we have several places in the US without access to cable TV because that infrastructure is too expensive to put in. What do you think India is looking at with almost 4x the people and a microscopic percentage of the money.

Anyways, in your worryment about places like hospitals, they usually have onsite generators for small draw power items and if this type of electricity works, it could easily be expanded into the other fields. Keep in mind in many places in india, they are used to doing many complex medical procedures without power. An example is syphoning the blood from a person as you cut to do surgery. You can't have all htat blood in the way and if you don't have power you need to have some way to get the blood out of there. Just 30 years ago they used an interesting system where the tube that was used to siphon was connected at a 90 degree angle to a larger tube that they ran water through. Fluid moves, lower pressure, suction without power. This was used by my father when he worked in the Capital before coming to the US. If the capital didn't have a good power supply 30 years ago, what makes anyone think it will be all that spread out now?

I do agree that many of the items we have in our schools gathering dust could do a lot of good in India and similar countries and should be sent there, but this is how India will deal with this. This approach has led to the tech boom that we in the US degrade as outsourcing. Maybe they are onto something we can't understand?

More high tech in rural India by isny · 2004-09-08 15:34 · Score: 1

Well, at least they'll have something to plug their simputers into.

Now you're cooking with ga-- er, Solar. by Mulletproof · 2004-09-08 15:34 · Score: 2, Interesting

Solar Power!? Let me guess, they're not using AMDs :D

Seriously though, plug some pentium M's in there and you might be able to do the job fairly efficiently. That, and I've always wondered if you couldn't somehow recycle all that excess heat bled off by the chip itself. Kinda like the regenerative braking in cars in away...

--
You need a FREE iPod Nano

Re:Now you're cooking with ga-- er, Solar. by NerveGas · 2004-09-08 16:13 · Score: 1

Current desktop AMD chips draw less power than current desktop Intel chips.

The Pentium M's might be a bit better on the juice, but that's alright - Via and Transmeta make chips that make the Pentium-M look like a power-hungry pig.

steve

--
Oh, you're not stuck, you're just unable to let go of the onion rings.
Re:Now you're cooking with ga-- er, Solar. by FooAtWFU · 2004-09-08 16:32 · Score: 1

That, and I've always wondered if you couldn't somehow recycle all that excess heat bled off by the chip itself
Unless you're talking about heating a building or something with that stuff, you're messing with the Laws of Thermodynamics here. Stuff doesn't work that way.

--
The World Wide Web is dying. Soon, we shall have only the Internet.
Re:Now you're cooking with ga-- er, Solar. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-08 17:48 · Score: 0

Thats right, the Laws of Thermodynamics state quite clearly that electricity can be converted to heat, but not the other way round.
Re:Now you're cooking with ga-- er, Solar. by BlurredWeasel · 2004-09-08 19:05 · Score: 1

Ya, just like the electric cars still use gas, you don't want 100% conversion heat->electricity, but 10% > 0%

wasteful government expenditures by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-08 15:41 · Score: 0

like these are the reason India is impovershed, not a way out of poverty.

They need to get government out of their economy, instead of wasting overburdened taxpayers with chic "appeal to Western liberals" nonsense like solar powered computers.

If you read the article... by frizzbit · 2004-09-08 15:45 · Score: 1

... it describes how the solar power is being used for more basic needs as well.

Why the power conversion? by Timbotronic · 2004-09-08 15:48 · Score: 2, Insightful

Yet another solar power project that's converting the DC output to mains voltage AC and then back again.

Wouldn't it be better just to charge up a big array of car batteries and then feed the power directly to the motherboards (after a bit of voltage conversion etc)? There's no need to use AC power unless you're transmitting it over long distances. Right Mr Tesla?

--

One of these days I'm moving to Theory - everything works there

Re:Why the power conversion? by niktesla · 2004-09-08 16:53 · Score: 1

The main problem with the DC distribution is that the conductor size is very large to carry the current required by several computers, etc. If you can limit the current draw or run at a higher DC voltage then you might get away with smaller wires. Alternatively, you could probably power each computer off its own battery relatively easily.
And while you're using computers off of battery power, why not use Mini-ITXs? They're small and low power (~9W idle for EPIA 5000) and there are a lot of dc-dc converters for them. Even the low end systems will be more than enough for anything but graphics intense games and DVD playback (except on the EPIA Ms). Anyhow thats my $0.02.

--
I've discovered a remarkable proof, but this margin is too small to contain it...

Guttenberg Galaxy by loid_void · 2004-09-08 15:50 · Score: 1

Marshall McLuhan foretold this coming in his book Guttenberg Galaxy; nations, electonic nations, tribalized by progressing technology. McLuhan argued quite eloquently that technologies were not simply inventions that people employ but more importantly, are the means by which people are re-invented. This can be truly amazing if they can pull this off and follow through.

--
Anyone seen my jagged little pill?

Similar to Cambodia by Sara+Chan · 2004-09-08 15:53 · Score: 2, Informative

Solar panels are also used for general electricity supplies in the Cambodia Schools project. There are currently about 250 such schools (funded by private charitable donations, with matching grants from the World Bank; computers are donated by Apple). There was a Slashdot story about these schools in January, and how they hook up to the Internet via motorbike.

Giving children an education is fundamental to long-term economic development.

We're supposed to be geeks! Everyone knows.... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-08 16:00 · Score: 0

...that "Gym" is what Bones called Capt.Kirk when they were speaking informally....sheesh....

Re:We're supposed to be geeks! Everyone knows.... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-08 18:08 · Score: 0

My huge purple dong slapping and whapping your tender face

$$ and power budget by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-08 16:02 · Score: 0

Running 1000 computers from solar power is not trivial. A standard solar panel of about 1x0.5m will supply about 75 watts under optimal conditions. (India has a monsoon season.) A typical computer and monitor use several hundred watts. There are not many computers that will run directly from a solar panel. One also needs batteries, a charge controller, and perhaps an inverter. It's not so simple or cheap.
Perhaps this project is using type of low power embedded type systems. I'd be interested in the technical details of this scheme.

Re:I'm afraid I don't understand... Why solar? by nayigeta · 2004-09-08 16:08 · Score: 1

In my opinion, education, energy and hygiene are important social indicators, and it should be impossible to drop 1 at the expense of another.

The main puzzle I see from this report is - why solar energy?!

Specifically, have solar energy reach the stage where it is more efficient than other energy option? (Think methane gas, natural gas)

A report on India's energy situation in 2002

--
Sunset over the lake, cool mist over the bridge; A leave upon the ripples, the snow reflects its glow.

Re:$$ and power budget by NerveGas · 2004-09-08 16:10 · Score: 1

Instead of the latest Prescott-cored P4, use one of the Epia/Eden/etc. machines, where the entire machine uses 20 watts. And what does a 15" flat panel run, another 20 watts?

And there's an upshot to that: You can fit many of those boards with a power supply that runs from 12V DC current, so no inverter needed.

Is it really all that hard?

steve

--
Oh, you're not stuck, you're just unable to let go of the onion rings.

Muscle power by PsiPsiStar · 2004-09-08 16:19 · Score: 1

Considering that people in rural areas still use animal power for most things, why not this? I'm thinking maybe a few oxen used to drive a generator or somthing along those lines. Considering that the technology you can purchase for an hour of work in many rural places is small compared to the animals you can purchase, at what point does stuff like generators running on ethanol, animal power, energy that can be locally produced using local materials, etc. become practical.

--

___
It's the end of my comment as I know it and I feel fine.

Re:Muscle power by Tablizer · 2004-09-08 17:03 · Score: 1

Considering that people in rural areas still use animal power for most things, why not this? I'm thinking maybe a few oxen used to drive a generator or somthing along those lines.

They might inadvertantly take this cover litterally.

--
Table-ized A.I.

Even cheeper labour? by Jasa · 2004-09-08 16:34 · Score: 1

With computers to into villages in India will this mean even cheeper IT labour?

The IT industries of developed nations will be doomed for sure!

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-Jasa -- Linux - The SOURCE will be with you, ALWAYS

Solar Powered Wireless? by OccidentalSlashy · 2004-09-08 16:37 · Score: 1

That's really neat, but do the computers have 802.11g and internet connection sharing, so that if they become ubiqutiuous enough they can form a internet of their own? Thus fulfilling the Prophecy Of Dharma? Whoaa...wait a minute... THEY'RE TAKING OUR JOBS!!!!

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vicious, untreated political sewage...niche entertainment for the spiritually unattractive...worshipless pap

Re:Solar Powered Wireless? by Reloaded · 2004-09-08 23:39 · Score: 0

I'm glad I'm not working in the computer industry! they took UR JURRRBs!!!

It's like.... by Tablizer · 2004-09-08 16:52 · Score: 1

"I gotta hurry up and finish trolling before the solar eclipse!"

--
Table-ized A.I.

Why? by ScottCanto · 2004-09-08 17:03 · Score: 1

Are computers the most needed commodity for rural India? It seems to me that the resources spent for these computers could easily be put to better use. I am ceaselessly baffled by the assumption that computers are the answer to everything. Our school districted invested over $20 million purchasing and maintaining laptops for about 7000 high school students, because this was going to be the end all solution to the woes of the education system. The result? Essentially you had 7000 $1300 NES emulators and a surge in interest for all the classic games. Educationally the result was nil, though that's not what the district officials, polititions, and ITs will tell you.

I wonder if the same situation is occuring in India. Sounds to me like this is more for publicity than actual benefit.

Re:Why? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-08 18:49 · Score: 0

Don't you remember how amazed, excited, you were, in the time of your first video games ?
A virtual world... totally challenge your conception of reality.
"So this world is just 20 000 lines of code ?"

and you lost all interest in breeding like a rabbit. Good for the development.

Like the Isle of Wight?! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-08 17:06 · Score: 0

The only connection between this project and the one on the Isle of Wight is that both use Solar Power. The Isle of Wight is neither remote, nor a developing country in any shape or form - they are well connected to all utility services.

If you must google for "schools computer solar power" to support an article, at least verify the relevance of the link.

Chuck

Re:I'm afraid I don't understand... Why solar? by melkorainur · 2004-09-08 17:14 · Score: 1

I agree with your statement. It would be a far better solution to use biofuels. This would include biologically generated methane, ethanol as well as things like the algae generated ethanol solution. That'd be far better suited to the briny, somewhat dry environments in Northern India. If only there was someone in a position of power in India who would read slashdot and make themselves available for this type of discussion.

Why solar? by A+coward+on+a+mouse · 2004-09-08 17:16 · Score: 2, Insightful

I think solar may be preferred because it requires zero infrastructure beyond shipping, installation, maintenance, and disposal. Also, sunlight is (so far) not something that can be bought and sold, so the intended users won't wind up beholden to someone selling fuel. Lastly, little to no day-to-day effort goes in to consuming solar power, so the user won't have to find time to do anything new other than use the electricity.

I think what's most exciting about this sort of thing is the distribution of decentralized power generation technology based on renewable energy sources. I'm sure if a situation arises where compost gas or wind power or micro-hydroelectric power is a better fit, this kind of project could adapt to use an energy source other than solar.

--
If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.

Computers? by wldkos · 2004-09-08 17:21 · Score: 0, Flamebait

Why the fuck are we getting these people computers when they need electricity in the first place?

Corrupt politics are the only thing sticking out in my mind since the order of priorities is way wrong.

Missed the point... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-08 17:26 · Score: 0

Are you arguing that if I don't have the means to gaurantee my child a future that I should instead not sacrifice anything, thus gauranteeing the opposite?

Sacrifice involves *gasp* sacrifice. It comes with a price. If the price is greater than the reward, you don't pay it. If it's not, you do. Even if it sucks.

Re:Missed the point... by WhatAmIDoingHere · 2004-09-09 07:21 · Score: 1

If you and your child DIE before she can put her education to a good use, what the hell was the point of the sacrifice?

--
Not a Twitter sockpuppet... but I wish I was.

Environmentally sound and reliable by earlgreen · 2004-09-08 17:29 · Score: 1

Seems like a positive thing to me -- skip straight to more environmentally sound power. Besides, it won't fail as often as India's existing power tends to. Man, it's nerve wracking trying to get an email out from an internet cafe in India! Zzzapp... oops, power out again. Twiddle thumbs ... bzzuummm OK see if it's on long enough to boot up this time. Decentralized power -- I'm all for it.

Sad by ddelrio · 2004-09-08 17:59 · Score: 2, Interesting

This story was so sad, I almost felt like offering an Indian my job.

AC Clarke said this infomation is what we need. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-08 18:10 · Score: 0

Overall "bad TV is better then no TV"

The way to provide the infomation to people is through the use of Radio, TV and the Internet. But these require electricity. Thus, solar, wind and small scale hydro.

These two things, infomation and the way to power that infomation reliablly, cheaply and enviromentally friendly are the two greatist gifts we can give to developing countries.

How efficient is the PhotoVoltaic cell ? by Taco+Cowboy · 2004-09-08 18:38 · Score: 1

Solar Power almost always means the use of PhotoVoltaic cells. The one which I used many years ago wasn't efficient at all, and they are bulky as hell.

How about the one now ?

What's the highest solar --> electricity conversion rate achieved so far ?

How high is the percentage ?

30% ?
40% ?
50% ?

If I remember the fact clearly, plants, on the average, convert only about 2% of the sunlight they receive.

--
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !

Re:How efficient is the PhotoVoltaic cell ? by Yokaze · 2004-09-08 23:05 · Score: 2, Insightful

> The one which I used many years ago wasn't efficient at all, and they are bulky as hell.

What is it with people being so obsessed with "efficiency" of solar cells? It's not like you're going to log them around all the time or place it right on your lawn. More important is the costs (and enviromental impact) of the production of them.

Imagine a dirt cheap, enviromentally friendly solar cell with 5% efficiency. We'd see all the roofs plastered with them.

> What's the highest solar --> electricity conversion rate achieved so far ?

For most people (those of us, that don't haul a satelites into orbit, or equip cars with them) that number is pureley academically. But, since you asked: Record 25%. Typical: 10-15%.

--
"Between strong and weak, between rich and poor [...], it is freedom which oppresses and the law which sets free"
Re:How efficient is the PhotoVoltaic cell ? by adamfranco · 2004-09-09 02:52 · Score: 2, Informative

The Materials Engineering Lab at Colorado State is doing some really cool stuff with thin-film PV modules. They are able to get 12.44% efficiences from cells that they make evaporating CdS/CdTe onto a glass backing.

The really cool thing (lots of pictures in the linked site) is that the manufacturing process is very simple (a conveyour belt passes glass into a vaccum-chamber and over several crucibles containing the CdS/CdTe to be evaporated onto the glass) and produces no liquid and virtually no solid waste. As well, if I can remember correctly from my visit to the lab, the raw materials (metals that will be evaporated onto the glass) are readily availible as by-products from other industrial processes.

Hopefully this technology will be out of the lab and in wide-scale use in the near future.

--
"When ideology and theology couple, their offspring are not always bad but they are always blind." -- Bill Moyers

cows are holy in india by ucdoughboy · 2004-09-08 18:51 · Score: 1

I don't think they appreciate someone sugguesting using animals they consider as incarntions of gods to generate electricty. Its like asking the pope to run on a treadmill so you could have your email.......

Re:cows are holy in india by PsiPsiStar · 2004-09-10 19:55 · Score: 1

Indians eat butter and milk from cows, and also use them as beasts of burden. They just don't slaughter them. This makes a lot of sense since you need animals to plow your field, but raising them for food typically consumes far more resources than simply plowing the field and eating the crop yourself.

from http://www.sociology101.net/sys-tmpl/bindiassacred cow/

Small, fast oxen drag wooden plows through late-spring fields when monsoons have dampened the dry, cracked earth. After harvest, the oxen break the grain from the stalk by stomping through mounds of cut wheat and rice. For rice cultivation in irrigated fields, the male water buffalo is preferred (it pulls better in deep mud), but for most other crops, including rainfall rice, wheat, sorghum, and millet, and for transporting goods and people to and from town, a team of oxen is preferred.

--

___
It's the end of my comment as I know it and I feel fine.

Give them hope .... by Gopal.V · 2004-09-08 19:03 · Score: 3, Informative

> I mean, I'm all for computers for the poor, but first things first... clean water and electric power.

I'm in India and often I see houses with no running water have TV antenna sticking out of it ... apparently priorities are slightly different :)

That aside, if you go to my home state Kerala, and ask a maid servant (who earns about 50 USD per month) where her son is , you'll be surprised to learn he's in college and studying engineering. Government funding and cross subsidisation ensures that education is cheap for the merit students. Unfortunately this phenomenon seems to be isolated to Kerala .

What I wanted to say is that this bold and risky investment on the future happens only when the people see a bright future ahead. These computers might bring hope to a few people in India and might urge them to not quit school before they're 14.

--
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur

Re:Give them hope .... by antic · 2004-09-08 19:15 · Score: 1

Well (and I'm sure you can correct me if I'm wrong) but Kerala is known for having some of the best (mandatory?) education in India.

--
'Thats they exact same thing a banana wrench monkey.'
Re:Give them hope .... by bhima · 2004-09-08 20:44 · Score: 1

I've seen shanty towns all over the world... the TV antenna thing is universal.

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Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

A Good idea... but by vaibhavkhullar · 2004-09-08 19:04 · Score: 1

This a good idea, but 1000 computers is no-where near enough to support the population of India (over 1 billion), of which many are computer illiterate. 1000 computers per district means about 3-4 per school. Also, it is likely that upon technical problems, there will be no one there to correct them. 1000 solar powered computers are likely to have negligible effect in a place like India, but that is just my opinion.

I am glad that there is atleast some initiative, but one of the main reasons why government schools in India have poor facilities is because most of the overlooking polititians are always eating into resources for their own benefits.

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Regards, Vaibhav

Virtual mod by Stephen+Samuel · 2004-09-08 19:42 · Score: 1

I'm trying to decide whether that deserves a 'funny' mod, or 'insightful'
(both?)

--
Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.

This is going on in other places, too. by Herak · 2004-09-08 20:00 · Score: 1

I worked briefly with a company who built "telecenters" in various rural parts of the world. A "telecenter" consisted of a few computers, lights, and a satellite internet connection - all powered by solar energy. I think part of the idea was that farmers could check weather conditions and grow crops more effectively - it wasn't just to educate children.

One thing I thought was neat was that the local residents were hired to construct the whole project. This made the architecture/construction fit in with the local style, and it also helped the locals understand what the thing was and why it was useful.

I would post the company's website, but I don't think their server could handle slashdot traffic. The website isn't very informative anyway.

How much energy to MAKE that cell? by xtal · 2004-09-08 20:03 · Score: 1

Solar cells aren't much good if you use more energy to make them than they produce.

--
..don't panic

Re:How much energy to MAKE that cell? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-08 23:21 · Score: 0

This is an old myth. A solar panel takes the equivalent energy of 2 gallons of oil to manufacture, yet they can last 30 or more years.
Re:How much energy to MAKE that cell? by Taladar · 2004-09-09 01:00 · Score: 1

Solar cells don't use energy at all (except in the production process). He was talking about the theoretical energy of the sun rays compared to the energy current solar cells can "extract" from it.

--
Linux is not Windows
Re:How much energy to MAKE that cell? by AaronGTurner · 2004-09-10 07:52 · Score: 1

Solar cells, over their lifetime, with current technology, produce around 4 to 5 times the amount of energy required to produce them.

Lower power solutions would work better by g0tai · 2004-09-08 20:58 · Score: 1

I can't help thinking that PCs (even VIA based/EPIA boards) draw one heck of a lot of power, and solar cells aren't that efficient. So you now have a nice big solar farm needing to be upkept, and also maintenance on the computers (which, tbh I'm *hoping* will not be windows based ;))

There are lower power based solutions that have been specifically designed (and built!) to address the power and maintenance (an OS entirely based in ROM) problems on the computer side of things, and are briefly touched on here, and would probably be more appropriate than a power hungry PC:

http://www.drobe.co.uk/riscos/artifact1160.html

PC Power Supplies by Detritus · 2004-09-08 20:58 · Score: 2, Interesting

The problem is that modern motherboards need more than generic DC power from an external source. The power requirements of modern motherboards are very severe for current and voltage regulation. This has resulted in the use of DC/DC converters that are tightly integrated into the motherboard design to meet the performance requirements. The performance requirements for a P4 power supply are insane. This means that the external DC power supply is mostly a source of bulk power that it converted to AC on the motherboard, before being converted to usable, regulated DC power for the various chips.

So what we have today is AC wall power being converted to DC in the PC power supply, then being converted back to AC, and then regulated DC on the motherboard. Some parts of the motherboard can directly run off the DC from the power supply. With solar power there is an additional DC/AC conversion stage to feed the power supply.

We might be better off with motherboards that were designed to run off loosely regulated 48VDC, like a lot of telecom equipment. This could be sourced from batteries, solar panels, or a simple DC power supply connected to an AC line. The motherboard would use DC/DC converters to convert the 48VDC to the required local regulated DC voltages.

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Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat

Computer skills aren't everything... by doodlelogic · 2004-09-08 21:06 · Score: 2, Insightful

If computers are in every classroom, and some of the teachers don't know how to use them fully, that should not matter. The job of an e.g. history teacher is to teach history, some will do that through whizzy technology, others will use group exercises or front of class lectures. They can all be excellent teachers, notwithstanding (because of?) their focussed skill sets.

It sounds trite, but different pupils have different learning styles too, so having some computer incompetent teachers may actually be a good thing.

Re:Computer skills aren't everything... by Paulrothrock · 2004-09-09 01:18 · Score: 1

It sounds trite, but different pupils have different learning styles too, so having some computer incompetent teachers may actually be a good thing.
Having different teaching styles is great. However, if you force students who learn best with whizzy technology to sit through a lecture, they're not going to be learning the best way.
The *very* best way to teach is to give students a task and tell them to finish it. They'll learn what they need to finish the task in the way that *they* learn best. If that means reading, they'll read. If it means experimentation, they'll experiment.
Herding children in school just makes them realize that it doesn't matter what their preference is, just what society thinks is right for them. And we wonder why so many flunk out of college...

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I'm in the hole of the broadband donut.

Also in GIF by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-08 21:42 · Score: 0

The same thing has been implemented in the rural areas of Georgia, Indiana and Florida.

link.

Indians are among the MOST corrupt people on earth by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-08 21:43 · Score: 0

India is such a miserable place precisely because of its massive, widespread corruption. India's 'elite' have got be the most selfish, clueless and incompetent bunch of idiots around.

Crematorium generators anyone? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-08 22:01 · Score: 0

Thats not a bad idea actually. Most indians cremate their dead and its such a total waste of energy. If they werent so damn stupid they could mass produce crematoriums that generate power burning dead human bodies....and other animal carcasses.

Kill two birds with one stone

Re:Crematorium generators anyone? by Prof.Phreak · 2004-09-10 07:31 · Score: 1

Kill two birds with one stone ...and then cremate them!

--
"If anything can go wrong, it will." - Murphy

Sounds like a job for by ColonBlow · 2004-09-08 23:12 · Score: 2, Funny

Sun microsystems.

--
free online diet tracking.

Jobs by eLiTeGoodGuy · 2004-09-09 00:06 · Score: 1

And we're sending most of our jobs over there? Why?

Re:Jobs by xot · 2004-09-09 00:36 · Score: 1

FYI... There are NO Outsourcing centers in the state being spoken about here.Besides it talks about 'rural' areas within that state.
In fact they are considering opening Outsourcing centers in Uttar pradesh which will bring in a lot of revenue for the state and they will HAVE to improve infrastructure in terms of electricity,computing,roads etc.

--
Lord of the Binges.

pedal computing by sl4shd0rk · 2004-09-09 00:08 · Score: 1

In an effort to stretch IT resources, the place I work at has installed drop-down pedal systems underneath the desks. When the P-60 processors get bogged down loading XP, the pedal system deploys and the employee is able to overclock the processor while getting some excersize as well. They call it the Gilligan system. The company had planned an indoor excersize facility for employees, but found this solution to be much more practical and cost effective. Perhaps this would work for India as well.

--
Join the Slashcott! Feb 10 thru Feb 17!

Hate to be cynical, but... by Ancient_Hacker · 2004-09-09 00:23 · Score: 1

Let's not go overboard here folks: * If this is like most school districts, there's very little informed planning. The computers are unlikely to be well-suited to the environment or to the new power source. Ideally the computers would have been chosen for low power consumption, with laptop-like design. Probably didnt happen, they're probably standard approx 200-watt Ac powered designs. * Solar power is unlikely to be the best way to go. 200 watts of solar power is going to cost THOUSANDS of $, and may only last a few years in challenging environments. A little cow-methane powered generator might be MUCH cheaper and completely locally sustainable (no shortage of cow dung and small motorcycle engines.)

Added benefit by Fantasio · 2004-09-09 01:15 · Score: 1

The kids won't play computer games at night.

Just a Little While Longer... by Laebshade · 2004-09-09 01:29 · Score: 1

Before computers start using us as power sources. But they're doing it out of order! The machines are suppose to wage war first!

Re:I'm afraid I don't understand... Why solar? by WOV · 2004-09-09 03:08 · Score: 1

"Efficiency" is a very strange comparison metric to use when one energy source has infinite, free fuel and the other does not.

What it comes down to is that solar panels are *relatively* cheap, and come in small modular bunches. Enough solar panels and batteries, charge controllers, etc. to run a 10 - computer lab 24/7 in India would be about $15,000 and take one day to set up. Then essentially anyone in the vilalge could be trained to use and maintain it, and it would sit there and work for 25 years.

A methane genset, (which they actually do a lot of, I believe, in India,) would come in cheaper per Watt, but would only be available at several multiples of that cost and capacity, and then would require much more expert maintenance, parts, shipping logistics, time, etc.

As for natural gas, the delivery infrastructure is simply not there and couldn't get there for another 5 - 10 years with a real crash, multibillion dollar infrastructure program, and then these people would be dependent on the increasingly constrained and volatile international natural gas market.

It's like using a laptop on an ambulance when an enormous Beowulf cluster is so much more cost- and power- effective per instruction.

fuck india by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-09 08:58 · Score: 0

fuck india! they don't 'need' computers in rural areas.. just more ways they can take our jobs.

height of frustration by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-10 04:06 · Score: 0

Its really nice to see you guyz getting frustrated at jobs going to india and posting such rubbish about iindua in slashdot ;-)

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Solar Powered Computers Planned for Rural India

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