Slashdot Mirror
Mushroom Cloud Reported Over North Korea
cbrocious writes "Yahoo! News is reporting a mushroom cloud over North Korea that occured on Thursday in Yanggang province near the border with China. 'The explosion in Kim Hyong Jik county blasted a crater big enough to be noticed by a satellite, the source said.'"
This probably isn't a nuclear detonation, since they would be instantly detected, due to the huge flash created. Back in the 80s, we had satellite technology to detect nuclear explosions. Don't you think we have it now?
got sig?
You mean this movie?
Remember what Bert the Turtle does!
According to this New York Times article to be published tomorrow, Bush had received intel in the past few days that North Korea was preparing to test a nuclear device.
Google's News.
Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
New York Times
Atomic Activity in North Korea Raises Concerns
By DAVID E. SANGER and WILLIAM J. BROAD
September 12, 2004
http://tinyurl.com/5kb3d
WASHINGTON, Sept. 11 - President Bush and his top advisers have received intelligence reports in recent days describing a confusing series of actions by North Korea that some experts believe could indicate the country is preparing to conduct its first test explosion of a nuclear weapon, according to senior officials with access to the intelligence.
While the indications were viewed as serious enough to warrant a warning to the White House, American intelligence agencies appear divided about the significance of the new North Korean actions, much as they were about the evidence concerning Iraq's alleged weapons stockpiles.
Some analysts in agencies that were the most cautious about the Iraq findings have cautioned that they do not believe the activity detected in North Korea in the past three weeks is necessarily the harbinger of a test. A senior scientist who assesses nuclear intelligence says the new evidence "is not conclusive," but is potentially worrisome.
If successful, a test would end a debate that stretches back more than a decade over whether North Korea has a rudimentary arsenal, as it has boasted in recent years. Some analysts also fear that a test could change the balance of power in Asia, perhaps leading to a new nuclear arms race there.
In interviews on Friday and Saturday, senior officials were reluctant to provide many details of the new activities they have detected, but some of the information appears to have come from satellite intelligence.
One official with access to the intelligence called it "a series of indicators of increased activity that we believe would be associated with a test," saying that the "likelihood" of a North Korean test had risen significantly in just the past four weeks. It was that changed assessment that led to the decision to give an update to President Bush, the officials said.
The activities included the movement of materials around several suspected test sites, including one near a location where intelligence agencies reported last year that conventional explosives were being tested that could compress a plutonium core and set off a nuclear blast. But officials have not seen the classic indicators of preparations at a test site, in which cables are laid to measure an explosion in a deep test pit.
"I'm not sure you would see that in a country that has tunnels everywhere," said one senior official who has reviewed the data. Officials said if North Korea proceeded with a test, it would probably be with a plutonium bomb, perhaps one fabricated from the 8,000 spent nuclear fuel rods that the North has boasted in the past few months have been reprocessed into bomb fuel.
A senior intelligence official noted Saturday that even if "they are doing something, it doesn't mean they will" conduct a test, noting that preparations that the North knew could be detected by the United States might be a scare tactic or negotiating tactic by the North Korean government.
Several officials speculated that the test, if it occurred, could be intended to influence the presidential election, though a senior military official said while "an election surprise" could be the motive, "I'm not sure what that would buy them."
While the intelligence community's experience in Iraq colors how it assesses threats in places like North Korea, the comparisons are inexact. Inspectors have seen and measured the raw material that the North could turn into bomb fuel; the only question is whether they have done so in the 20 months since arms inspectors were ousted. While Iraq denied it has weapons, the North boasts about them - perhaps too loudly, suggesting they may have less than they say.
On the other hand, the divisions within the administration over how to deal with North Korea mirrors some of the old debate about Iraq. Hard-l
http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/international/inter national-korea-north-minister.html r national-korea-north-explosion.html r national-north-korea-explosion.html
http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/international/inte
http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/international/inte
Similarly, if it was a nuke, Japan's geiger counters have had plenty of time to go off by now.
I'm all for skepticism, especially when it comes to worthless AP/Reuters echolalia, but it's definitely making the rounds. (Remove the word "blast" from that search, and you can sort of see how many are just repeating AP and how many have actually come up with their own story.)
Steven N. Severinghaus
See also this site
Recall that 9-11 even created a seismic event
--
I believe the SwiftVets
I believe Juanita
All GPS satellites have detectors for a nuclear flash.
http://ares.redsword.com/GPS/old/sum_sat.htm
Besides, "mushroom-shaped" clouds form from all large explosions, not just nuclear ones. Set off a big bomb, and you suddenly generate a large amount of superheated gas in a pocket near the ground. This rises so rapidly that it generates vortices around its perimeter, and the rolling of these vortices draws up a column of smoke and explosion debris, forming the stem. Then when the rising gas reaches a higher altitude where it's just about as dense as the surrounding air, it spreads out, forming the cap.
A mushroom cloud could be from a nuke. It could also be from the explosion of a liquefied natural gas storage facility, or a MOAB, or cargo train filled with ANFO. It's not a tell-tale of anything other than a big explosion.
The problem is that we don't have reporters in North Korea. We have reporters all over the world, so when something happens, it takes maybe a couple of hours tops to get a camera on it. Not so in North Korea. It's essentially a blackout. It took days IIRC to get some closeup video of the explosion in North Korea in April, and it was very limited.
Are there any online seismometers that show this blast. A nuclear explosion would show one big spike, but large ordnance would show a series of smaller spikes.
"I'm not impatient. I just hate waiting." - My Dad
Ummm.. Sorta...
First, a thermonuclear bomb will create a double pulse. A regular old nuclear bomb only creates a single pulse of light. The double pulse is because the fission explosion that is required to set off the fusion blast.
Doesn't matter. The planet is wired with detectors at this point to catch any "anomolous" explosions, through a variety of methods, in order to ensure compliance with the test ban treaty.
And second, you are using a poor rip of the wikipedia. Remember, just because one *can* fork and republish the content of a GFDL-protected work, doesn't make it a good idea.
Gentoo Sucks
Here's the article.k orea.blast/
http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/asiapcf/09/11/n
To respond to myself
n -5 027-1.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/opla
"The DPRK will seek force ratios of 3-5 to 1 in armor, 6-8 to 1 in artillery, and 4-6 to 1 in infantry forces to mount an attack. In attempting to breach a well-prepared defensive position, the DPRK may be expected to seek even larger ratios. This undoubtedly would be the case in attempting to break through DMZ defenses.
Combined-arms operations constitute the foundation of tactical battle in DPRK doctrine. Utilization of the forward conventional corps, reinforced by the mechanized and armor corps, to fight from the DMZ to Pusan is called the Strike Force concept. This concept embodies how the DPRK is expected to fight, especially south of Seoul or in defense of the DPRK."
"Without moving any of its more than 12,000 artillery pieces, "Pyongyang could sustain up to 500,000 rounds per hour against Combined Forces Command defenses and Seoul for several hours" Gen. Thomas A. Schwartz said in testimony in March 2001 before the Senate Armed Services Committee. Schwartz heads the United Nations and ROK-US Combined Forces Commands and US Forces Korea.
Towards the end of the Korean War fighting in 1953, the Chinese were able to fire approximately 100,000 rounds per day against US forces, and the number of rounds per day was increasing. A 100,000 round day would be a light day in a new war.
In 1993 and 1994, when the North Korean nuclear question emerged as an international issue, the North deployed large numbers of improved 170mm self-propelled guns and 240mm multiple rocket launchers to forward positions close to the DMZ. This was apparently meant to threaten South Korea's security while calling for nuclear negotiations with the US."
"A major air campaign against northern forces would be required before the counteroffensive could begin. A US Marine Expeditionary Force (in division strength) and the 82nd Air Assault Division, along with ROK divisions, would launch an overland offensive north toward Wonsan from the east coast. Soon thereafter, a combined US-ROK force would likely stage an amphibious landing near Wonsan, and advance to Pyongyang. Subsequently, a combined US-ROK force would execute a major counteroffensive from north of Seoul aimed at seizing Pyongyang. This would be achieved either by linking up with the force at Wonsan, or meeting it at Pyongyang."
Clinton and the democrats safely contained these crazy dictators.
I'll concede this point if by "contained" you mean, "implemented cosmetic measures which allowed these crazy dictators to build up the weapons technology and arsenal's their unveiling now."
Bush may not be helping much, but claiming that Clinton in some way "contained" the situation is laughable.
No comment.
A forest fire...?
/ nk orea.blast/
http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/asiapcf/09/12
China has a lot of troops at the North Korean border. They can be used to protect them, but are mostly there to overrun them if they get too stupid
>"implemented cosmetic measures which allowed these crazy dictators to build up the weapons technology and arsenal's their unveiling now."
NK broke the reactor seals under Bush.
NK lauched long range missiles under Bush.
Rumors of NK's nuclear program growing in the past three years were under Bush of course.
Saddam disarmed under Bush I and Clinton. Saddam's own son-in-law told Newsweek they had no WMD anymore and the UN agreed that the "threat" Bush played up was a seriously distorting the facts. After the invasion, guess who was right?
Yeah, there is proliferation going on for two main reasons:
The Bush admin is focused on the middle east region and only cares about WMD as pro-war propaganda.
Other nations realized the lessons of the Iraq war weren't "with us or against us" it was "countries who really have WMD survive and don't get invaded." Works for Israel, it will work for everyone else.
They signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty before backing out of it in January of 2003. Put simply, signatories to the treaty (that did not already have nuclear weapons)agreed not to produce nuclear weapons.
Not even close to all of our troops are in Iraq, and even if war does come, we won't be alone.
First of all, the Korean War was a UN effort, so the potential exists for many additional nations to contribute troops.
The Republic Of Korea Army is not a trivial force:
Most of the US Army is not committed, and could be available on an emergency basis.
The US Army National Guard, which is at a heightened level of readiness due to all of the recent deployments is largely uncommitted and a force to be reckoned with:
The Navy could move massive sea power which would be easy to deploy due to the fact that Korea is a peninsula. Seven carrier battlegroups could ruin your day.
The Air Force could stage out of Japan in massive numbers.
The majority of the Marine Corp (including USMC Reserve) is not committed.
If North Korea heaves too many gratuitous missiles over Japan, the Japanese Self Defense Forces may enter the fray.
The aircraft and tanks used by North Korea aren't even as good as used by Saddam in the '91 Gulf War. They do have massive artillery, chemical weapons, and biological weapons though.
Make no mistake, another war in Korea would be a meat grinder with heavy casualties, but that has always been the case.
Seoul, the capital of South Korea, is within heavy artillery range of North Korea, which practically guarantees heavy casualties.
Lets hope it doesn't happen, but if it does, it will likely be the end of North Korea as a state.
Paektu-san (Mount Paektu or White Head Mountain), is an extinct volcano and Korea's highest mountain (2,744 meters). It's located on North Korea's northern land border. It may have sprung violently back to life like North America's own Mount St. Helens.
Also, forest fires occur there with some regularity (more than 130 at once this summer), and can produce large white mushroom shaped clouds under the right atmospheric conditions.
Let's not jump to conclusions. Oh wait, this is Slashdot....
Possession of the nukes all but guarantees immunity from invasion.
The large number of missiles and artillery aimed at Seoul is their current deterrant for invasion. Nukes would add to that substantially.
For example, if they could hit Seoul or Tokyo with their nukes, and still maintain teh firepower they have trained on Seoul, then they are safe, for the moment. However, if they think we are attacking them and hit Tokyo, then we have a doomsday scenarop.
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
The USGS FAQ on nuclear-seismic activity says that a small earth quake has the energy of abour 2000kilotons. If the NK are playing with fission they might reach 40-50 kilotons. The size of the explosion might fall of the bottom of that chart.
The fact that there are no sensors in north korea might be a factor. Also, india and pakistan were bragging about their nukes, NK might not be so open. And if the USGS has noticed something THEY might be quiet about it. They like rocks, not politics.
Bacardi + slashdot = negative karma.
The spike is at 16:10 UTC which would be 2:10 AM in Korea. The article says the explosion happened at 11:00 AM.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
The way I remember it, all nuclear explosions create a double pulse. The interval between the pulses depends on the size of the explosion. Fission bombs are measured in milliseconds and may not be perceptible to observers; the largest thermonuclear bombs have a delay between pulses of about a second. In an H-bomb, the time between the fission trigger and the fusion reaction is measured in microseconds, so that's not an issue.
The effect is due to the physics of the expanding fireball. The initial reaction directly emits light, which is seen as the first pulse. Right after this, the expanding ball of opaque plasma surrounds the bomb debris, obscuring further light. The plasma itself is hot and bright, however, and as its surface area grows the total emitted light increases again. This is seen as the second pulse.
check out this post in an earlier thread. This picture from Harvey Mudd (in LA, CA) shows that *something* happened last Thursday.
Iraq had no indigenous anti-Saddam rebels,
Ah duh, ever heard of the Kurds?
Not to mention there was an al-Qaeda group setting up bases in the north that also opposed Saddam.
Also all of al-Sadrs boys opposed Saddam too.
Germany and Japan have constitutional laws preventing them from having a military. They both have peace keeping forces but no sizable armies to wage war or even protect themselves. If anyone, however, has the capabilities to raise a well equipped military they are it. Toyota and BMW can undoubtedly produce military caliber vehicles in no time. People don't know this but Japan once flirted with building infrastructure to manufacture and mass produce aircraft for the aviation industry but was deterred from doing so by the United States.
-----
One is born into aristocracy, but mediocrity can only be achieved through hard work.
Er, make that, "I don't like to see people use bad reasoning to oppose the Iraq war."
In Repressive Burma, it's not just your connection that dies. slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=314547&cid=20819199
There's nothing that makes a two mile wide mushroom cloud other than a nuclear explosion.
Actually, any large fire could create a mushroom cloud that big.
Last summer, we had a brushfire here in Los Angeles and the mushroom cloud it created was five miles wide. I'd love to post a link to the pictures I took, especially the ones where the cloud reached overhead and turned the ambient light orange, but sadly, it wasn't digital film.
Here's some photos from the news coverage.
If something exists that does not need a creator (god) then why must the cosmos need one?
"Did those 134,000 troops stop the Madrid or Bali bombings?"
Yes, we should have sent troops to Spain and Indonesia instead.
"Face it, Bush fucked up in going to Iraq, there are much worse threats facing us in this world."
Problem: Surprisingly large numbers of Islamic extremists are blowing people up.
Cause: Oppressive, brutal governments make these extremist groups and their actions seem attractive to the ordinary people living under them in comparison.
Solution: Promote democracy so that people don't feel they need to make bombs to bring about change.
Implementation: Use heavy diplomacy when possible. Consider the use of force only in situations where the risk to neighboring countries is still minimal.
What, do you really think everything will be fine and dandy just as soon as we catch that one guy hiding in south Asia? If anything, bin Laden is more a symptom of the problem than the actual cause.
What we're effectivley seeing here is what happened in France in the early Nineteenth Century and Russia in the early Twentieth: vicious, bloody popular uprisings against tyrannical governments, where the revolutionaries are just as sanguine as the governments they're overthrowing. The only difference is that, in our modern world, the revolutionaries and their methods can be exported around the world to also strike at others they perceive to be allied with the bourgeois elite.
Do you think it's mere coincidence that the bombings in Indonesia happened in the same country that brought us the whole East Timor mess?
"You'll note that nobody blinked an eye when we took the Taliban out."
Spoken like someone who doesn't remember the protests in Pakistan and New York(!) in October of 2001, among other places.
That's todays data.
TFA said it happened on the Thurs 9th.
check out the data for the 9th: NCSN - Drum Recorders
something happened at 10:30 UTC on the 9th.
several recorders picked it up in CA.
rho
No.
Vibrations through the earth travel at many kilometers per second, depending on density.
There'd be a delay (thats how you can triangulate earthquakes and such) but not in the order of 9 hours.
You are in a twisty maze of processor lines, all alike.
There is a lot of hype here.
Map of the region is here:
9 /200409120002.html/
http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/20040
Quoted from their website:
Massive Explosion Takes Place Near Sino-Korean Border
A Chinese source familiar with North Korea revealed Sunday that a major explosion took place Thursday in Kim Hyong-jik County, Ryanggang Province.
The source said, "I know there was an extremely large explosion in Kim Hyong-jik County, which is near the Sino-Korean border, on Sept. 9, North Korea's foundation day."
He added, "I heard talk that the explosion was even bigger than the one that took place during the Ryongchon Station accident... Evidence of the explosion was detected by satellite, and I understand the U.S. and other surrounding nations are paying attention to the incident."
In relation to this, another source connected to North Korea said, "I heard rumors of a large explosion taking place in North Korea's Ryanggang Province, which is close to the border with China."
An official from a certain surrounding nation who resides in Beijing said, "There is a rumor that a large explosion took place in Ryanggang Province, and interested nations are working to uncover the exact scale and cause of the explosion."
Kim Hyong-jik Country, where the explosion is known to have taken place. is across the Yalu River from Jilin Province, China, and South Korean intelligence authorities understand that a base for Daepodong 1 and 2 missiles was located at the town of Yongjo-ri, in a mountainous region of the province.
Those files have been slashdotted... anyone get originals?
Does it go on forever?
Japan spends nearly $50 billion a year on its military (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rank order/2067rank.html). Mitsubishi actually manufactures a custom version of F-15 for the Japanese (defense) air force (http://www.mhi.co.jp/aero/english/productf/b02.ht m). Get your facts straight.
"The deluded are always filled with absolutes. The rest of us have to live with ambiguity." - Aristoi, Walter Jon Willia
Here is a map showing the location:
9 /200409120002.html/
http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/20040
Massive Explosion Takes Place Near Sino-Korean Border
A Chinese source familiar with North Korea revealed Sunday that a major explosion took place Thursday in Kim Hyong-jik County, Ryanggang Province.
The source said, "I know there was an extremely large explosion in Kim Hyong-jik County, which is near the Sino-Korean border, on Sept. 9, North Korea's foundation day."
He added, "I heard talk that the explosion was even bigger than the one that took place during the Ryongchon Station accident... Evidence of the explosion was detected by satellite, and I understand the U.S. and other surrounding nations are paying attention to the incident."
In relation to this, another source connected to North Korea said, "I heard rumors of a large explosion taking place in North Korea's Ryanggang Province, which is close to the border with China."
An official from a certain surrounding nation who resides in Beijing said, "There is a rumor that a large explosion took place in Ryanggang Province, and interested nations are working to uncover the exact scale and cause of the explosion."
Kim Hyong-jik Country, where the explosion is known to have taken place. is across the Yalu River from Jilin Province, China, and South Korean intelligence authorities understand that a base for Daepodong 1 and 2 missiles was located at the town of Yongjo-ri, in a mountainous region of the province.
(englishnews@chosun.com )
Except for the issue of women in the draft (which Rep. Rangel included in the proposed bill to make it even more controversial), how has this changed from previous years? Are they really preparing for a "new national draft", or are you just saying so because you read the SSS's Annual Performance Plan? What exactly is it in the Performance Plan (and not Rangel's bill) that supports your claim?
Another misleading statement. There haven't been college deferments since 1971. The only deferment possible is until the end of the college semester. Here's a link to the report in question. There was absolutely no mention of a resumption of the draft in the report. Where exactly, could you point out, should I read between the lines?Yes, North Korea has attacked someone. Once, more than fifty years ago, it attacked what it considered to be a renegade government (which had just declared itself independent from the North) installed by an occupying power. The occupying power responded by bombing North Korea into the stone ages, and by committing various other atrocities. The occupying power was the USA. What the US did in Korea makes what it did in Japan look like a tea party. The war may be called "the forgotten war" (because the US of course finds it convenient to forget an extremely shameful episode), but North Koreans have not forgotten what the US did in their country. Since 1953, North and South have been in stalemate. Neither wants to launch an attack on the other, but neither trusts the other. In particular, the North still thinks of the South as a puppet of the US and, quite rightly, does not trust the US one inch. It is good that the North has nukes, since it means the stalemate will continue. Which means peace.
~~~ Centigrade 233 ~~~ yaku, yaku, yaku!
A little history - In 1994 Clinton sent Carter to negotiate a treaty with North Korea. The North Koreans agreed not to develop nuclear weapons in exchange for hundreds of millions of dollars of aid in the form of food and oil, and assistance in developing a "peaceful" nuclear program. The North Koreans then used their "peaceful" nuclear program with assistance from Abdul Qadeer Khan from Pakistan to develop their own nukes thus secretly breaking their agreement. North Korea also has an active missile programs and has conducted "test firings" of multi-stage missiles - shooting them over Japan. Japan is not very happy about this.
...) ...".
The U.S. with U.N. backing (the Soviet Union's UN ambassador had walked out - thus avoiding a veto) fought a war with the North Koreans in the 1950's. The war ended with an armistice in 1953 - not a peace treaty. North Korea has a 1.1 million man army out of a population of 22 million. They spend about 23% of their GDP on the military. The South Korean capital - Seoul is within easy artillery range of the North Korean border, and the North Koreans are believed to have a lot of hidden artillery in bunkers on the border. In the event of war, a lot of civilians in South Korea would die quickly. Finally, North Korea's leader Kim Jong-il is a wacko. While his people starve, he imports large quantities of large items for himself (he favors Hennessy cognac). He's had Japanese citizens kidnapped to teach the Japanese language to North Koreans spies . He's a movie nut (owns 20,000 films) and kidnapped a South Korean movie director to make films about himself.
China is North Korea's largest trade partner and patron. However, with China's economic boom - China now trades far more with South Korea, Japan, and the U.S. Nevertheless, China is still wary of Japan - remembering the horrors inflicted on China by the Japaneses during WWII. Since the war, Japan has become an economic rather than military power, and it's pacifistic constitution (written by the US) ensures that it will not again become a threat to it's neighbors.
A nuclear North Korea threatens the balance in the region. It is not in the interest of China for South Korea to develop it's own nukes. It is not in the interest of anyone for the Japanese to develop nukes to counter the threat of nuclear armed missiles from North Korea. China's real nightmare - is if the region starts a nuclear arms race and Taiwan goes nuclear.
So, the choices are as follows:
1) Cut a deal similar to the 1994 Carter deal that the North Koreans violated (fool me once
2) Attack North Korea and risk immediate massive civilian casualties in South Korea.
3) Drag China into the negotiations with North Korea and convince them to "curb your dog".
4) Close our eyes, put our fingers in our ears and shout "La La La La La
Personally, I think the only viable answer is number three - and that's what we're doing.
[Insert pithy quote here]
Here's the graph from Japans closest station2004/09/08:g i-bin/prev.pl?plot-t ype=1day&station=IZH&comp=LHZ&time=2004090 800
http://www.fnet.bosai.go.jp/c
Forgive my typo about 16hours... it is clearly 15hours UT
HOLD YER HORSES!!! Reuters is now backpeddling a bit... http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArticle.jhtml? type=topNews&storyID=581649§ion=news
pictures speak a 1000 words
ex 1
ex 2
you can find 100's of recountings of forest fires that have mushroom clouds
Because the rest of us know that the NK is a media blackout zone on the planet. To enlighten you, let me give you the rules for a journalist to enter NK:
1. No cellphones.
2. No cameras above 4 megapixels
3. No tele lenses for your camera.
4. NO CELLPHONES! That goes twice for sat phones
5. No recording devices.
Now, this is provided that you actually get in to the country. Because you don't want to enter it without a vise, since they WILL treat you as a spy and you don't want that. I applied for a visa and was denied, since I work as a journalist.
Trust me, if I had the opportunity to uncover this, reporting from the country, my (tabloid) editor would have it on the front page. Because, if this is nuclear (which I guess it isn't) it would be the foreign fucking story of the year.
The 2 AM seismic event is strongest at KIS. That's located in the middle of the south shore of Japan (Chugoku-Shikoku area). It also shows up strong on the north/south motion graph (first graph is up/down).
Check the previous days, there's plenty of spikes. It's just a damn earthquake in Japan.
Going to a few airshows apparently trumps your layman/common-sense physics knowledge. Tiny airshow-level pyrotechnics can create mushroom clouds. Mushroom-osity is not unique to nuclear blasts, only the size is.
Mod down posts with a "Free Mac Mini/iPod" sig, they're spam!
He's either whacked or really, really different - I vote for the former.
..........FULL STOP.
Really? Where'd they move to?
East Asia. Let's see what Wikipedia says:
Southeast Asia is a subregion of Asia. It includes all of the following territories:
Brunei
Cambodia
East Timor
Indonesia
Laos
Malaysia
Myanmar (Burma)
The Philippines
Singapore
Thailand
Vietnam
When you look at a map it is obvious that Korea is really pretty far to the north, which makes it reasonable that it's included with Japan, Taiwan and some Chinese provinces in East Asia.
Any sufficiently advanced libertarian utopia is indistinguishable from government.
September 9th at exactly 9AM, there is a funny blip. http://www.hinet.bosai.go.jp/strace/24hour_wavevie w.php?orgid=01&netid=01&stcd=N.GENH&tm=2004090909& winnm=N_GENH
In practical terms it's impossible to build a nuclear bomb that yields less than about 5 kilotons. The reason is that you need a critical mass of fissile material for an explosion to occur at all. The critical mass of U235 corresponds to a yield of over 100 kilotons; fission bombs usually yield less because only a small fraction of the uranium in a bomb actually fissions when it goes off. (The Hiroshima bomb had a yield of about 20 kilotons.) You can get a smaller yield by building a less efficient bomb, but the main factors determining the efficiency are the neutron/uranium reaction cross-section and the branching ratios, which are physical constants. You can't get a smaller yield by using less uranium.
i know i'm just an anonymous coward,
but
do check out
http://www.seismo.nrcan.gc.ca/hplot_e.php
for 2004 09 09 16
Something happened at 16:40 UTC.
==================
For reference, also check out:
2004 09 05 15
which was the 7.3 Richter-scale Japan earthquake.
"
Yonhap carried conflicting reports about the cause of the blast, quoting one source as saying it could have been a forest fire and another as saying it may have been an explosion of at a weapons depot or factory.
...
Other possibilities include a failed missile engine test, a high-explosives test as a precursor to a nuclear blast or an industrial accident, diplomats said.
"In the northern part of the country, there are a lot of weapons factories and underground missile bases. The rocket-fuel could have exploded in the underground base, or something," speculated Daniel Pinkston, a North Korea expert at the Center for Nonproliferation Studies in Monterey, California.
"
I live here, so I pray to God it wasn't a nuke.
Gov't Confirms 'Non-Nuclear' N. Korean Explosion
It was reported that there was a massive explosion Thursday around the town of Yongjo-ri, Kim Hyong-jik County, Ryanggang Province. U.S. Department of State, sources familiar with North Korea and the Korean government all confirmed the explosion. A high-ranking government official said Sunday, It is true that a large mushroom cloud about 3.5 to 4 km in diameter was observed by a satellite at around 11:00 a.m. Thursday. It was not a nuclear test, but the explosion seemed to be three times bigger than the one that took place during the Ryongchon Station accident,± and added, Both U.S. and Korean intelligence authorities are investigating what caused the explosion.±
Chong Wa Dae Spokesman Kim Jong-min said, We noticed the explosion right after it took place and reported it to the president in writing during a National Security Council meeting. But we cannot decide the nature of the accident yet.±
The accident took place in a mountainous region 1,500 meter above sea level around Yongjo-ri, where it is known that there were many munitions factories nearby. In particular, the exact spot of explosion is only 10km away southwest from the Yongjo-ri base for Rodong 1 and 2 missiles and some 30km away from the Sino-Korean border.
There is much talk about the cause of the explosion. The government official said, If a nuclear test causes an explosion, we can detect it by reading satellite data. Thus, the recent explosion in North Korea was not caused by a nuclear test.± The intelligence authorities assume that an ammunition depot with over 1,000 tons of dynamite or an ammunition car may have exploded, or there may have been a chain explosion of chemical material or a big fire. Some Chinese sources argue that a massive explosion took pace in a munitions factory. Hong Sun-jik, director at the Hyundai Economic Institute said, Other than the assumption that it may be a simple accident that took place due to old facilities, we cannot exclude the possibility that the explosion may have taken place due to the lack of control of the Kim Jong-il regime, or it may have been connected to a secret feud over the successor of Kim Jong-il following the rumor of death of Kims wife, Ko Young-hee.±
Also, some strongly argue that it is not a simple accident because it took place on Sept.9, the Norths foundation day, which is considered a very important national holiday. Others argue that with Koreas nuclear experiments in the past at issue in the international community, it could be a false explosion by North Korea to intensify the Koreas nuclear issue. In other words, the North intentionally caused the explosion to deliver a message to the international community.
The government official said, We will be able to know the exact cause only after North Korea makes an official statement or intelligence authorities announces the results of their analysis.±
(Choi Byung-mook, bmchoi@chosun.com )
from cnn... http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/asiapcf/09/12/nkorea .blast/index.html
The US tested many sub-kiloton devices.
I suggest as a minimum reading a bool called the Curve of Binding Energy... I'm pretty sure its got a chapter talking about Ted Taylor's efforts to build micro-yield devices.
Either way, your comment is completely wrong. Its far more complicated to created small yield devices, but not even remotely impossible. Its extremely unlikely that North Korea did that, though. While creating a nuclear detonation is simple given enough raw fissionable material (US and Russia both had no failed tests with primitive technology until we started pushing the envelope for smaller and smaller explosions), creating micro-yield explosions is, and the details is one of the closest kept nuclear secrets in the US.
We've had smaller nukes than that since the late 1950's. Our AIM-26A and AIR-2A air to air missiles typically had 1.5 nuclear warheads. Some of these had the even smaller 0.25 KT warheads.
More Info:
http://www.milnet.com/aamtab.htm
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/arm/arm16.htm
http://www.hill.af.mil/museum/photos/coldwar/genie .htm
"Weapons should be hardy rather than decorative" - Miyamoto Musashi
I think that goes for OS's too
"Someone set up us the bomb."
It came from a sega game called "Zero Wing". Read backwards, it reads:
"Bomb the US up set someone."
What can I say... your interpretation of events does not square with reality on my planet. Let's take this point by point:
Man, you should really go check out some of the US's declassified documents about the atomic bombings. I just took a course on the atomic bomb, and talk about spin.
Don't believe everything you learn in a class, particularly such a politically-oriented one.
In the Manhattan Project docs, they make it very very clear that Japan was sending out "peace feelers" and trying to surrender in July.
Did they mention the conditions? Early on in the war, the Allies had decided that they would accept nothing less than an unconditional surrender. Being able to put conditions on your surrender is one of the rights you lose when you go on an unprovoked rampage and kill millions of people, and require the entire might of the free world to put you down. The "peace feelers" the Japanese were sending out did not allow for an unconditional surrender, and were therefore (rightfully) unacceptable to the Allies.
Russia was set to invade along with the United States a week after the bombs were dropped, and the estimated casualties in the Manhattan Project docs were 40,000 Russians and Americans at MOST. The millions of lives lost came from an article by Henry Stimson (Secretary of War at the time) in order to silence critics of the atomic bombings. It worked really, really well, to the point that what you're saying is what most Americans believe even today, and it's what I believed before taking that class and learning about the event for myself.
It sounds nice, but it's doesn't really stand up under examination. First, I find it intensely curious that you only count Russian and American casualties. Don't Japanese casualties count? That's the whole point of the "oh, bombing Hiroshima was so horrible!" thing, isn't it?
Let's take a look at the Battle of Okinawa, which was the only thing that could be considered a piece of Japan proper that was invaded during the war. When examining this, keep in mind that "only" 80,000 people were killed in the Hiroshima bombings. Any alternative action that kills more than that comes out as a net loss. Also keep in mind that Okinawa makes about 0.6% of Japan's total land area, and (as of today) about 1% of Japan's total population.
The battle of Okinawa lasted about 82 days. American casualties during the battle were just under 16,000 killed and 38,000 wounded. Japanese casualties include over 100,000 soldiers and 100,000 civilians killed. The battle for a relatively tiny island in the middle of the ocean cost over 200,000 Japanese lives, already more than the total number of deaths in both atomic bombings. To imagine that the whole of Japan could be taken, when its very women and children were being trained to fight to the death with sharpened bamboo stakes, with fewer than 180,000 deaths (the number from the atomic bombings) on both sides is dubious, to put it extremely mildly. Your figure of 40,000 deaths on the Allied side is vaguely plausible, although incredibly low, but in battles with the Americans, the Japanese were having trouble killing a single American soldier without losing five or ten of their own, and there is no reason to expect that this would improve given their seeming inability to learn from experience that they displayed throughout the war. Combine the land battle with continued conventional strategic bombing and it would take nothing short of an act of God to kill "only" 180,000 people during the invasion. Getting under the "only" 80,000 killed at Hiroshima might even be beyond His powers.
We basically bombed Japan so that we could claim sole credit for their surrender, and so that we could get the first "hit" on Russia in the cold war by showing off our pretty weapons.
These were reasons, I won't deny, but I will deny that they were the only, or even the primary, reasons. The primary reason for the atomic bombings was to end the war as quickly as
Mod down posts with a "Free Mac Mini/iPod" sig, they're spam!
If I remember correctly Hitler was a big proponent of allowing israel into the EU as well.
You try to be funny, but before WWII there was a shared interest between Nazi Germany and the Zionists. They both wanted Jews to leave Germany. This resulted in the Ha'avara agreement, where the Nazi's supported Jewish emigration to Israel.
North Korea has invited diplomats to visit the blast site of what is reported tpo be a "deliberate detonation of a mountain" as part of a hydroelectric project.
The spectacular start of a big project fits with the date of the blast in N. Korea.
Nothing to see here, please move along...
I am, and always will be, an idiot. Karma: Coma (mostly effected by
From the VOA:
North Korean foreign ministry officials have told British and Chinese diplomats that the explosion was the demolition of a mountain to make way for a hydro-electric plant.