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Soyuz Damage May Delay Space Station Trip
SeaDour writes "As if the failed oxygen generator on the International Space Station wasn't bad enough, rumor has it that the planned launch of a Russian Soyuz capsule to change crews onboard the station may be delayed due to a mishap during ground testing. Apparently one of the small explosive bolts, used to separate sections of the capsule during landing, prematurely exploded, which means the bolts may all have to be inspected for defects. Russian space officals haven't officially confirmed any delay of the October 9 launch date, but I'm sure it's something the two astronauts on the station are thinking about as they repressurize the station with reserve air supplies."
The president should get Graham Russel and Clive Davis dispatched to ISS ASAP!
-Randy
This is kinda discouraging. I'm all in favor of manned spaceflight, but...
Until we're willing to fund not only the station but its support structure, and fund it enough to insure that there's some redundancy in systems, I think it might be time to start thinking about abandoning it in orbit for a while. What spaceflight does NOT need right now is the two sitting ducks..er, I meant crew, dying because we can't keep the structure/support up to snuff.
Boycott everything - they're all trying to fuck you one way or another
I realize that space flight is incredibly complex, but is it really that much more complex than regular flight? Why does it seem that space flight is constantly plagued with problems?
Is it simply that space flight isn't mature enough yet? If commercial space flight ever takes off, is that what will make it more reliable? How can it take off until it is more reliable?
GMail invites for completed freeipods.com of
So, if the oxygen generator fails, they don't have redundant oxygen generators with a fail-over mechanism, to work uninterruptedly? Are they too huge that they have just one, and depend on reserve supplies? I hope they get the supplies soon. Perhaps, when China also launches their space vehicles, we will have more countries to rely on in case of space emergencies.
Those exploding bolts... touchy little buggers, always going off at the drop of a pin. Why is there nothing else?
Anyone seen my jagged little pill?
Seems kind of interesting that the people up there would be running on the emergency supplies right now. Perhaps they are considering using the currently-attached Soyuz capsule in order to be able to drop down to earth just to be able to breath sometime soon.....
echo "rm -rf ~/* ; echo "echo "Exit" ; exit" > ~/.bashrc ; exit" > ~user/.bashrc
Hmm, from the links, it seems they only have oxygen canisters that would last one month. But NASA says they are in no immediate danger. Commander Gennady Padalka is confident he can clear the blockage and get the machine running again, said NASA spokesman Rob Navias. In the meantime, Padalka took spare parts and installed them in a spare oxygen generator, which could serve as a replacement if necessary So they have an extra oxygen generator, but I wonder why they don't have something like a 'RAID' system of these devices, instead of swapping parts after one of them fails.
they would replace the failed bolt and not bother inspecting the otheres, they would assume they were safe even fi the engineers on the fild say its very bad. later when the other bolts fail,
oops, how did that happen?
Looks like Soyuz and Gemini problems are related to me: they put the Gemini bolts in the Soyuz and vice versa :-)
I, for one, welcome our Soyuz-damaging overlords.
zosX
zosxavius photography
The real question we, as geeks, should be posing on Slashdot is: Where can I get some of these exploding bolts?
Banaaaana!
"I'm sure it's something the two astronauts on the station are thinking about as they repressurize the station with reserve air supplies."
Of course, if the 'worst' comes to the 'worst' the 2 astronauts use the Soyuz module which is attached to the ISS to return to Earth; they don't depend on another launch just to get back if there is a problem.
If they use the 'lifeboat' Soyuz, there are no explosive bolts to worry about there because they have already been fired.
Of course, it would put the module/lifeboat situation out of sync but that can be made up by launching a second time after the next crew goes up.
Ripping an new rectum in the fabric of spacetime.
comparing space flight to regular flight is not very fruitful. regular flight is not safe either,and is plagued with problems. why? because both airlines, and space programs are very cheap, and very dishonest. notice it is the same backroom of aero companies that make both types of equipment. commercial, military, and space equipment is made as cheaply as possible. this is because space orgs need lots of money to "study psychological effects of space" and other make-work schemes.
the concept of explosive bolts on spacecraft is very poor engineering. it is a good example of the disposable attitude space engineers have. it is surprising to see spacecraft that are still disposable, after all of these years. with many space (corporate welfare) agencies crying that they do not have enough money, it is unreasonable that there are no spacecraft with a service life beyond one. sending one time rockets up is a poor excuse for a space program, when i think of program, it means fleet, support, and engineering team, with real capabilities.
i guess this only goes to show, in soviet russia, the space station delays you!
...they should be young and lively when they get back.
You are absolutely right and I stand corrected; I totally misread the article.
Ripping an new rectum in the fabric of spacetime.
It's your dream to someday design something that requires exploding bolts, right?
"ISS, this is Huston. What is your status, over."
"Huston, we are bingo air. Repeat, we are bingo air. send some up on a redbird, over"
"ISS, that is a negative. Soyuz has dents in the fenders. Recomend you try that Jedi shit from episode one where they hold their breath, over."
"Huston, episode 1 sucked, over."
Wow, here's hoping everything turns out ok, the planet has had enough stuff go bad for manned space flight recently.
HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
They're assuming that the anti-oxidant effects of red wine are the only health benefits, there may be other that beer doesn't replicate
Not that that will stop me drinking my beer, I feel much happier about it now - espcially after the 3rd or fourth one
"The president should get Graham Russel and Clive Davis dispatched to ISS ASAP!"
I don't know who those guys are, but I am interested in sending Lance Bass up there right about now.
"Derp de derp."
Well, if you'd RTFA you'd learn that they have a spare oxygen generator on the space station that can be installed as a replacement if necessary, plus they have a bunch of spare parts they can use to repair the one that is giving trouble. They have over a month's supply of chemical oxygen generators, and they have oxygen supplies in the Soyuz that is docked. So they have lots of redundancy here.
There has to be some limit to the amount of redundancy they have in any one system, as they only have so much weight and volume available, but they don't seem to have cut any corners in the area of O2.
Kevin Horton
As far as I recall, the Russian Mission Control is located in one of two places. It's either in Star City, a space town about 70 kilometers south of Moscow or it's in Korolev, also a town (now more of a suburb), about 20 kilometres north of Moscow.
How nervous do you think astronauts are, as a breed?
"Do not drill any holes in your cat - it will not like it."
-- Nick Davies
It's an extra Soyuz capsule, permantently attached, to be used as a lifeboat in case of emergency evacuation.
As usual, it's the Russians bailing us out...
There exists no way of exchanging information without making judgments. --Bene Gesserit Axiom
The 'explosive bolts' mention don't actually explode. The correct name is 'frangible bolt'. A small charge goes off inside it and breaks down the structure so it seperates cleanly. 'Explosive bolt' suggests that it goes off like a firecracker, but shooting shrapnel around inside a million pounds of cryogenic fuel and delicate machinery would be unwise.
Also, in response to the post that asked why there were so many problems w/ spaceflight, there's one thing the responders failed to mention: assembly line quality.
If you build 30 soyuz capsules over a 30 year period, each one is still very much like a craftsman assembled item. If, on the other hand, you build 100 devices of similar complexity in a year, then you can have real assembly lines with better inherent quality. The defects/flight and cost would drop dramatically if there were more spacecraft being built. Check the quality of the pre-Ford cars against the Model T, and the difference is immediately apparent.
I suspect that a decade of funding neglect is what's causing such heartache for the US and Russian space programs. I wonder how long before the Chinese surpass them and set up their own space station? Given the general living conditions in the former USSR (yes, I've spent months living there), I can't see a sustained effort from the Russians for much longer. And the Americans don't seem interested anymore - the space-race ended years ago, and it no longer makes headlines unless everyone dies. I guess I better enroll in Mandarin classes... :)
Which president?
...as to what exactly an oxygen generator is. From what does it generate oxygen? I thought spacecraft just carried pressurised (or liquefied) oxygen and just regulated it into the internal atmosphere. Is this one of those gag devices like a lumber stretcher or a left-handed monkey wrench? Do astronauts haze the new guy by saying "Hey, go check the oxygen generator. Then see if you can find my black hole."
Putin knows there's only way way to get the ISS really humming: blame Al Qaida and take away people's right to elect governors and legislators. Until these steps are taken, the space space is DOOOOOOOMed.
Dude, I do think it's bizarre though how the media hasn't made a big deal out of Putin suspending democracy in the wake of the school massacre. The school massacre was on TV every night for a week, here in Japan. Why no coverage of the aftermath? The school massacre was a horrific thing that killed hundreds of children, but a return to totalitarianism could kill millions of men, women, and children.
Oh well, I'll go back to being an "OT troll" elsewhere....
Nice 80's reference
Yeah, they can perform "all out of air" and "making air out of nothing at all".
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
NASA Said it had never happened...
Apparently one of the small explosive bolts, used to separate sections of the capsule during landing, prematurely exploded, which means the bolts may all have to be inspected for defects.
Now it has happened again.
we really need the shuttle (or whatever *should* be taking over for it by now...) to get back in the game. no more of this dropping pieces of foam to doom the rentry...ugg.
CB
free ipod and free gmail!
While it's true to a degree that space flight is inherently more difficult than atmospheric flight, that isn't the sole, or even the main factor contributing to the unreliability of space flight. It's also not really a problem of using old equipment. In fact, the problem can be considered using new equipment. Don't worry, I'm not crazy. Read on.
The Wright Brothers crashed several times before their first powered flight, and they crashed on their third flight, and they crashed several times more in the years following that. It was part of starting out. Compare that with now. Every part in an airplane is rigorously tested, at least in the prototype. Most parts are "off-the-shelf," which not only makes them cheaper, but means the engineers can become familiar with their failure history and plan ahead. Even the newest designs are based on one that worked well before.
In the space program, however, everything is new. The oxygen generator was built specifically for the space station. It was tested in the lab where it was built. At best, it was designed and built by applying lessons learned from a handful of similar devices before it.
Remember, NASA is about developing technology. In a way, the space program now is sort of like a software program in its alpha test stage. A lot of lessons will be learned and a lot of bugs will be identified. In the next few decades, companies like Scaled Composites will produce vehicles that better fit the description of Beta releases. Maybe it won't be too long before we're asking if interstellar travel is really that much more difficult than flying to Mars.
I would think that hand building each one would produce better quality than assembly line work.
:)
A better car analogy would be a Rolls Royce vs. a Cadillac. Granted, a Caddy is a good car, but a Rolls is far and away a better car. Another analogy that might be more familiar to readers here would be comparing a vanilla Dell with a machine custom engineered for a specific purpose. I would put my money on the custom job.
I also submit that the Model T wasn't better than it's ancestors because of an assembly line. That may have had a bit to do with it, but remember that the Model T was built for 19 years without major modifications for a total run of approx 15M cars. I would say that they had a reasonable amount of time to work out the bugs. Also, the pace of auto development was very rapid in those days, much like technology today. Yet another analogy would be to compare the 486 with the 386. Process improvements did have an effect on the improvements in the 486, but the design is what really set it apart. One could argue that process improvements gave the designers room to improve, so that analogy breaks down somewhat.
I wouldn't say you are totally wrong though. If a lot more capsules were built, the quality would go up a bit at the end of the run of a LOT of them. I just wouldn't want to be on one of the first few off the line. The old adage "Don't ever buy a first year GM" is an old adage for a reason
ft
What do you mean it doesn't make the headlines?
Shuttle flights almost always spash on the front of CNN.com or the top of the news on CNN/Foxnews.
Those fools, why couldn't they have used non-exploding bolts?!
If there were a commercial reason to have a space station, the cost would be in effect zero because income would cover and pay for expenditure. Resupply missions would have been worked into the budget. In an emergency a lender could be found to pick up the cost aganst future profits. And if the whole project became a white elephant, it would show straight off empirically as negative profit.
How do you socialist spacers grow your budget? The tax take can't go up much (because you'll wreck the economy and shrink the tax base). The government's got other things to do besides NASA. The cost for serious space can go up without limit but you're already bumping your budget ceiling. Your solution can't scale, which is why you're stuck with itty bitty robot probes and a barely operational floating tin can on a mission to nowhere.
I'm no rocket scientist, but exploding bolts have always seemed like an engineering cop out to me.
Engineer A: "Lets see...we have these two parts that need to be held together really tightly and then released very quickly"
Engineer B: "I have an idea, let's just build the whole damn thing out of plastique or some shit, that'll work great"
A: "Good show ol' chap. That will work fine and dandy indeed."
jokes aside, what are the compelling (practical?) reasons that exploding bolts seem to be so common in spacecraft?
SPAM
I did NOT do anything wrong. The hatch just BLEW. It was a GLITCH. It was a- a TECHNICAL MALFUNCTION. Why in hell won't anyone believe me?
There are alternatives, like FrangiBolts, but nothing is as small and reliable as the explosive kind.
They're the singers in the music group "Air Supply". :)
--RJ
...in EverQuest.
Just to complete the stereotype. I agree, Slashdot is well into its own "September that never ended."
Mind the Gap
They should have used self-sealing stem bolts.
Unix is mysterious, and ancient, and strong. It's made of cast iron and the bones of heroic programmers of old -
So, yuz plannin' on launchin' that capsule inter space, wuz ya? Well yer'd best check them bolts fust... I had one 'splode and blow one o' my best wrenches slap into! I wouldn' trust 'em, nosuh.
-
Y'all please pardon the spelling; I'm an old Southern hillbilly turner of wrenches.