RFID Not Just for Kids

sigh... by EmperorKagato · 2004-09-15 19:47 · Score: 4, Funny

Great, there goes my plan to leave my crazy no-good kids behind.

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----- You know you have ego issues when you register a domain in your name.

Re:sigh... by cei · 2004-09-15 19:54 · Score: 3, Funny

All part of Bush's "leave no child behind" program...

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This sig intentionally left justified.
Re:sigh... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-15 20:33 · Score: 1

CPS is monitoring the tags to be sure you dont leave your kids at the park while the moms all go out for a drink.
Re:sigh... by bhima · 2004-09-15 20:51 · Score: 1

The mere thought of me knowing exactly where she was would send my 8 year old into apoplexy. She probably would stick this on the first ugly person she found, preferably some one bound for far, far away...

--
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
Re:sigh... by CountBrass · 2004-09-15 21:30 · Score: 4, Insightful

You allow your 8 year old to wander off by herself? FFS what kind of a parent are you?

--
Bad analogies are like waxing a monkey with a rainbow.
Re:sigh... by Anonymous+Writer · 2004-09-15 22:24 · Score: 1

The poster was implying that his/her 8 year old was the one who would hate the idea, and never said that he/she allows the child to wander off.

The English language needs gender neutral singular and possesive pronouns to refer to someone in the third person. :/
Re:sigh... by 813952 · 2004-09-15 22:49 · Score: 0

ITYM "leave no GNs behind"

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813952.813952
Re:sigh... by Mycroft999 · 2004-09-15 23:18 · Score: 5, Funny

"Remember to take all packages and property with you when you leave the boat. Please make sure you also take your children. Because if you don't want them, then we don't want them either... For many of the same reasons."

"Any children left behind at the end of the day become property of Walt Disney World Incorporated. At which time we take them over to the It's A Small World pavilion , staple their feet to the floor and teach them that awful little song in forty-two different languages. I myself used to be the hula-girl"

- Boat operator on the Jungle Safari Cruise at Disney World Magic Kingdom, Spring 1996.
Re:sigh... by SomeoneGotMyNick · 2004-09-16 00:14 · Score: 1

I guess all the Jungle Safari Cruise operators have a second job as stand-up comedians.

Our operator told us, "In case of the boat capsizing, please hold on to the green seat cushions as they are the only ones that float." The boat only had red and blue cushions.
Re:sigh... by maxpublic · 2004-09-16 01:12 · Score: 3, Informative

Funny, when I was a kid parents thought nothing about letting their 8-year-old kids wander off to play in the woods or go down to the swimming hole themselves. Now people scream about how 'irresponsible' that is and wonder what sort of parent would allow such a thing.

Max

--
My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
Re:sigh... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-16 03:14 · Score: 0

You're afraid to let an eight year old, presumably someone who's already in 2nd or 3rd grade, wander off by herself? FFS what kind of country do you live in?
Re:sigh... by Frank+T.+Lofaro+Jr. · 2004-09-16 03:56 · Score: 1

If you don't know how to hack RFID, then you don't deserve to be able to do that. :)

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Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
Re:sigh... by Dashing+Leech · 2004-09-16 04:36 · Score: 3, Informative

Funny, when I was a kid parents thought nothing about letting their 8-year-old kids wander off to play in the woods or go down to the swimming hole themselves.
Absolutely. I even used to walk 30 minutes to and from school alone every day when I was 8. No wonder kids get no exercise these days, they're not allowed more than 6 feet from their parents. We used to call that overprotective, now it seems to be the norm. (I can say this now because I am a parent myself.)
Re:sigh... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-16 06:45 · Score: 0

It's because the parents all paranoid today, not because they are afraid for their children, but that they are afraid of the government coming in to arrest them for being irresponsible. We went out to play on our own. We avoided being run over, avoided being beaten up, and avoided adults - the only real danger to children. I used to wake up on my own to get to school and catch the bus and come home on my own. I'm far more worried about the irresponsible adults who are allowed to drive than I am of my children wandering alone by themselves.
Re:sigh... by bhima · 2004-09-16 07:18 · Score: 2, Interesting

You don't have kids do you?
I know everyone hasn't already pointed out how silly your comment is but I can't resist... Any parent with adventurous children learns quickly that the trick is have lose enough control that your kids don"t have the perception of being under your control or observation so the quit trying (as the spy novels say) "lose their tail". But your have to be adept and quick enough to prevent them from committing any felonies or terrorist acts. On top of that I want my kids to have some independence so they do stupid childish Eight year old things, and learn not to rather than making it to being a teenager without these lessons and learning them when she has a peer group with motor vehicles.
And as someone else pointed out she is eight and she walks to school (with her younger bother) without supervision (school started last week) and apparently fun & cool (we do live in a very safe city in Austria).
My only real concern is that her brother will antagonize her until he finds himself tied to a freight train head for Timbuktu.
On the RFID thing... in a theme park the kids may think it fun but in the real world it's just an invasion of privacy and kids don't really have any to begin with, so I'd never foist that on any off them it only pushes them away.

--
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
Re:sigh... by yarbo · 2004-09-16 07:19 · Score: 1

Just throw the Finnish word in there. "Hän allows the child to wander off."

But as I understand it, the Finnish usually use the word for "it" (se) in informal speech.

En ole suomalainen ja en puhu suomea.
Re:sigh... by ThatGuyGreg · 2004-09-16 07:55 · Score: 1

Jungle Safari Cruise? Boat operator?

Darn college program kids...

/World Famous Jungle Cruise Skipper, ret. (1997-2000, seasonal)
Re:sigh... by Colazar · 2004-09-16 11:30 · Score: 1

The English language needs gender neutral singular and possesive pronouns to refer to someone in the third person. :/
I agree, but we're already well on our way to allowing the third person plural pronouns to substitute. That usage is already ubiquitous. Within 20 years it will be deemed explicitly grammatical.

--
He decided to just watch the government, and kind of scale it down to size, and run his life that way. --Laurie Anderson
Re:sigh... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-16 12:30 · Score: 0

I think that's NAMBLA's new slogan as well.
Re:sigh... by k512-arch · 2004-09-16 12:30 · Score: 0

... why is this still 4, Insightful?
Re:sigh... by minion · 2004-09-16 12:41 · Score: 1

You allow your 8 year old to wander off by herself? FFS what kind of a parent are you?

The same kind of parent you had, and your parents had. And look, you're still alive..

And don't give me the "there's more perverts in the world today" nonsense. We're just more aware of the perverts due to the internet. The number hasn't changed.

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-- If we don't stand up for our rights, now, there will be no right to stand up for them later.
Re:sigh... by Eternauta3k · 2004-09-17 07:55 · Score: 1

One in which there is plenty of kidnapping.

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Yeah. Would you choose a neurosurgeon who pokes around people's brains in his spare time? I wouldn't.
Re:sigh... by Alphtoo · 2004-09-18 02:41 · Score: 1

Absolutely right (I'm an old phart and when I was a kid we did pretty much as we pleased, until we were called). But it's not so much that parents or children are different now, it's that the world has changed. Nowadays there are a lot more damned mean people than there used to be. When I was young kidnapping pretty much just didn't happen. A burglary was big news. Carjacking had not been invented. Oh, we had assholes back then, but they were either good at it and didn't get caught or so bad that the worst they did was busting some other guy's nose. - We allowed our world to become the evil place that it is, and I have been as guilty as anyone in that regard. We can return it to its earlier state, or we can keep bitching about its decline. That is up to us. - Tagging is nothing new. I was often tagged back in the '50s. If I didn't come home when my Dad whistled, I could count on a good tagging when I showed up, and he always had a right big belt. He didn't have the technology available today, but his system worked very well. Hell, my ass burns just thinking about it.
Re:sigh... by notthe9 · 2004-09-18 13:40 · Score: 1

"""All part of Bush's "leave no child behind" program...""" Quoted for posterity.

And now, for your delectation and delight... by gowen · 2004-09-15 19:47 · Score: 4, Insightful

... slashdotters will spot the magic phrase "RFID", and remember that this is something the hivemind has told them they're against. They will proceed to explain why a private entity using RFID tags -- entirely on its own property -- to track and locate lost children is an appalling infringement of their civil liberties.

This should be good.

--
Athletic Scholarships to universities make as much sense as academic scholarships to sports teams.

Re:And now, for your delectation and delight... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-15 19:51 · Score: 0

Yes, but the children aren't the property of the private entity in question...
Re:And now, for your delectation and delight... by Scarblac · 2004-09-15 20:07 · Score: 5, Funny

I agree, some people seem to overhype RFID privacy problems a bit.

There should be no problem with this, simply microwaving the children for a short period should be sufficient to disable the tag.

--
I believe posters are recognized by their sig. So I made one.
Re:And now, for your delectation and delight... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-15 20:09 · Score: 5, Funny

simply microwaving the children for a short period should be sufficient
True, but that leaves them chewier than baking.
Re:And now, for your delectation and delight... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-15 20:09 · Score: 1, Funny

Well what's next? They implant them into you so that they can respond in the quickest possible time if something bad happens to you? Who is "they" you ask? The shaddow governments, who want to track you and know exactly where you are at any time for their evil plans. Beware!! don't fall for the light and happy side of this awful new technology. oh ya, and don't register to vote or you'll get jury duty.

This has been a public service announcment by an AC whos been up for 39 hours so far.
Re:And now, for your delectation and delight... by DrXym · 2004-09-15 20:24 · Score: 5, Insightful

Lost children is a convenient explanation. I'm sure the park can't actually use the technology to see which bits of the park are most popular, where the best place to put concessions, what ride lengths need shortening to maximize throughput or anything like that. Oh no.
It's to track kids - never mind that it tracks everyone whether they have kids in tow or not.
But if it finds a few lost kids then great. Who can disagree with that? Unless of course it might substantially lessen a child's safety.
Why? Well the parents will be more inclined to leave a tagged child on his / her own because he / she can be tracked. As a consequence there are more separated children within the park. Even an unsophisticated abducter could just grab a random lone child and make a beeline for the exit - once out the park the RFID is no good. A smarter abductor would remove the RFID tag first. A smarter one yet might use the RFID to find out the where the parents were in order to avoid them before discarding it.
In other words, it's hard to see how an RFID helps that much at all. It will help in your everyday lost child situation, but it instills a false sense of security at the same time.
Perhaps it is better that kids are chaperoned by their parents rather than tracked by chips after all.
Re:And now, for your delectation and delight... by Scarblac · 2004-09-15 20:26 · Score: 1, Insightful

Lost children is a convenient explanation. I'm sure the park can't actually use the technology to see which bits of the park are most popular, where the best place to put concessions, what ride lengths need shortening to maximize throughput or anything like that. Oh no.

Yes, but all of those sound like a good thing to me as well. Do you actually disagree with those?

--
I believe posters are recognized by their sig. So I made one.
Re:And now, for your delectation and delight... by CGP314 · 2004-09-15 20:28 · Score: 1, Funny

... slashdotters will spot the magic phrase "RFID", and remember that this is something the hivemind has told them they're against

Is Apple involved in anyway? If so RFID is then OK : )

-Colin
Re:And now, for your delectation and delight... by Ianoo · 2004-09-15 20:42 · Score: 1

Quite, I'm all in favour of a theme park maximising throughput and by consequence reducing waiting time.
Re:And now, for your delectation and delight... by jeff+munkyfaces · 2004-09-15 20:44 · Score: 1

I like to think i am an authority on this, having played Themepark for years on end..

While they might say it is to locate lost children (or their parents), i suspect a convenient side issue will be that they will get a very clear picture of what people spend time and money on in their park.

And whether they think there is too much ice in their soda.
Re:And now, for your delectation and delight... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-15 20:53 · Score: 0

Like they actually want to reduce waiting times? and maximise throughput to what exactly? as long as they can get you to sit in the queue, in the baking sunshine, with no shade, and place burger-shaped stalls every 15 yards selling over syruped 7up, then they couldn't care how big the queue gets. RFID tags won't change their attitude, but it might help to find lost kids, which can't ever be a bad thing, surely.
Re:And now, for your delectation and delight... by DrXym · 2004-09-15 20:57 · Score: 2, Funny

Yes I do - I strongly dislike the conveyor belt like layouts in zoos & parks which is what they frequently are these days. Entrance - attraction - concession - attraction - food court - attraction - concession - attraction - gift shop - exit. But that's irrelevant.

The point here is that 'saving kids' is a convenient excuse for something which is more likely being introduced for commercial reasons. It isn't even a good excuse (and quite possibly dangerous) for reasons I pointed out.

And for that everyone who enters the park with a child or not is being made to wear tags just so the park can determine ways to extract more money from people's wallets on their way through.

It's like a real life version of Roller Coaster Tycoon - except you can't pick people up with tongs and drown them in a lake.
Re:And now, for your delectation and delight... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-15 21:04 · Score: 0

And some slashdotters will see something that many people have strong feelings about, check their internal Ideology-O-Matic checklist for one of 2-3 possible simplistic cases, and dismiss an obviously complex, subtle, and novel set of circumstances with a single stroke of their intellectual pen.

Meanwhile, the rest of us will debate whether or not this is a something we like, whether we would go to such a theme park, what the unintended consequences are, how or society might change if this becomes common, why even when you are in public, you have a certain expectation of privacy, whether or not it's important to raise awareness so that the people choosing to enter this "private" park are making fully informed decisions ("but honey, it's encrypted, that means nobody can find our kids but us!")

It's called "thinking" and "discussing" and appropriate for many things out here in the "real world". Join us when you're ready!
Re:And now, for your delectation and delight... by Lesrahpem · 2004-09-15 21:15 · Score: 1
I really do not see what is wrong with using these to track people on private property, as long as a few measures are taken.
1. The tags can be easily removed (not just deactivated) upon leaving the park.
2. Demographic and other marketing related data is not released to anyone outside of the corporation owning the park.
3. The system by which people can locate others is secure (ie. not connected to the internet or a wireless network)
If those measure are taken then this method is no different than the surveillance they use now, just more effective.
Re:And now, for your delectation and delight... by akadruid · 2004-09-15 21:20 · Score: 1

It's like a real life version of Roller Coaster Tycoon - except you can't pick people up with tongs and drown them in a lake.

yet...

remember, the future is but an quickly granted patent away.

--
"Those who cast the votes decide nothing; those who count the votes decide everything." (attrib. Joseph Stalin)
Re:And now, for your delectation and delight... by gowen · 2004-09-15 21:23 · Score: 1, Funny

I strongly dislike the conveyor belt like layouts in zoos & parks which is what they frequently are these days.
You don't like theme parks. Hey, me neither. So don't go.

--
Athletic Scholarships to universities make as much sense as academic scholarships to sports teams.
Re:And now, for your delectation and delight... by 10Ghz · 2004-09-15 21:56 · Score: 1

Well, if your idea of "having a good time" means standing in a 200 meters long line, go right ahead. However, if I go to a them-park/amusement-park I go there to enjoy the rides and other fun things they offer, not to stand in a line. If they can figure out ways to reduce the time I waste by standing in a line, so much the better!

Besides, they are already studying ways to improve their facilities. And that includes studying which rides are popular and which are not. Do you complain about that as well? Or is it a bad thing only if they use RFID-tags to do it?

--
Lesbian Nazi Hookers Abducted by UFOs and Forced Into Weight Loss Programs - -all next week on Town Talk.
Re:And now, for your delectation and delight... by Coryoth · 2004-09-15 21:56 · Score: 4, Insightful

I use to work in data mining software for casinos. The only thing they'd love more than RFID tagging everyone that walks in the door is being able to get personal data (age, sex, address, income...) logged against each tag. If casinos can find an ecuse to do this, believe they will. They already track people in every possible way they can, and have a myriad of tools to slice and dice that data to squeeze every last penny out.

Which means it is no surprise at all to me that the theme park is largely using this for data collection purposes to optimise layouts and rides. As you say "finding lost children" is just the convenient limp excuse to get the system in place. After a while people will just take it for granted.

At the same time - there's really nothing at all wrong with this. In a sense they're just trying to provide the best service possible, and it's their property, so really they can do what they like. You dont want to be RFIDd and tracked? Don't go to that theme park. Nobody is forcing you to go there.

Jedidiah.

--
Craft Beer Programming T-shirts
Re:And now, for your delectation and delight... by D-Cypell · 2004-09-15 22:32 · Score: 1, Funny

You cant do that!!!! Microwaving your children??!?!

Thats a DMCA violation!
Re:And now, for your delectation and delight... by MeNeXT · 2004-09-15 22:35 · Score: 1

This is just a false "peace of mind." If the child is safe then the tag is accurate. A child who gets abducted will most likely have the tag ripped from him/her.

If you care about your children do not expect technology to keep them safe. Not yet anyway. We need to change our mindset. There are some situations where there is no room for error.

--
DRM? No thanks, I'll just get it somewhere else...
Re:And now, for your delectation and delight... by DrXym · 2004-09-15 22:39 · Score: 1

So you're agreeing with me that everyone must wear RFID tags to find 'lost children' is bullshit? I ask merely because that was what the story was about, yet you're conceding that the park might have ulterior and more likely reasons for expecting everyone to wear them.
Re:And now, for your delectation and delight... by gowen · 2004-09-15 22:54 · Score: 1

If you care about your children do not expect technology to keep them safe.
Not exclusively no. That would be stupid. But a kid with a mobile phone and a rape alarm is safer than one with neither. A kid with an RFID tag is harder to lose.

Rejecting something thats helpful because it's not a perfect solution is idiotic (especially, as in this case, when there are no perfect solutions).

--
Athletic Scholarships to universities make as much sense as academic scholarships to sports teams.
Re:And now, for your delectation and delight... by Luigi30 · 2004-09-15 22:55 · Score: 1

I think we'll need a new icon for "I hate this tag." 45: I want food. (icon) 33: I want drink. (icon) 8: HELP!!! (!) 1: I hate this stupid tag! (icon?)

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Re:And now, for your delectation and delight... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-15 23:02 · Score: 0

What is wrong with commercial interests here?

It's never been a question in my mind when I go to my local Six Flags that I am anything but a cash cow; from the sky high ticket prices to the quadruple priced "refreshments". But you know what? They have some killer coasters, so milk away, I signed up for it after all.

I'm sure that parks already use a myrrid of ways to measure how people are using their park, this isn't any different, just more advanced. And the end goal of this information is to find out how to make their business more attractive to the public to make more money; it seems like a fair trade to me; I'll trade them the ability to watch me inside their park in order to get potentially better service in the future. It's not like I wasn't doing everything in full public view already...
Re:And now, for your delectation and delight... by RogL · 2004-09-15 23:10 · Score: 5, Funny

simply microwaving the children for a short period should be sufficient

True, but that leaves them chewier than baking.

No, no, no... 5 minutes a side under the broiler for browning, then microwave to cook through. The microwave time varies by weight.
Re:And now, for your delectation and delight... by 10Ghz · 2004-09-15 23:12 · Score: 1

No, I'm not saying that. What I am saying is that even if they had other motives besides then one they advertise, I wouldn't automatically be against it. It CAN be used to make the park-going experience that much nicer. Whether they advertise that fact or not, is irrelevant. As far as the park-goers are concerned, the immediate tangible benefit they get from the tags is that they can find others of their group. And that's the feature they are advertising.

If they can make the park more pleasant with the tags, so much the better!

--
Lesbian Nazi Hookers Abducted by UFOs and Forced Into Weight Loss Programs - -all next week on Town Talk.
Re:And now, for your delectation and delight... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-15 23:12 · Score: 0

Isn't that fair use?
Re:And now, for your delectation and delight... by Zorilla · 2004-09-15 23:19 · Score: 0, Offtopic

In that case, prepare to loose karma.

--

It would be cool if it didn't suck.
Re:And now, for your delectation and delight... by elpapacito · 2004-09-15 23:38 · Score: 1

Gotta love rdif tracking baby eating communists
Re:And now, for your delectation and delight... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-15 23:39 · Score: 0

First of all, RFID is not GPS you morans! If a child gets abducted, even if his tag remains, you will not know his location unless he pass a turnstile. And by the time you realize you lost him, he will probably be far away from the park since a few hours ago.
Re:And now, for your delectation and delight... by gnu-generation-one · 2004-09-15 23:48 · Score: 1

Maybe they just finished playing Theme Park Tycoon and liked the way it displayed information. Next up, you'll have to wear sensors to say if you're hungry or tired...
Re:And now, for your delectation and delight... by theLastPossibleName · 2004-09-16 00:05 · Score: 1

and they're also working on gigantic, floating tweezers to pick up guests and drop them in the nearby lake.

So, you want to go home, huh?
So, you're lost, huh?
So, you think the Disembowler is too scary, huh?
So, you've already had a hamburger, huh?

My favorite thing in that game is to create a small fenced in area with place many (dozens or hundreds) costumed pandas, drink stands, unhappy guests, and no bathroom.
Re:And now, for your delectation and delight... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-16 00:14 · Score: 0

slashdotters will spot the magic phrase "RFID", and remember that this is something the hivemind has told them they're against.

Thank christ you did not use the work GroupThink. That would have been hivemindish of you.. ;)
Re:And now, for your delectation and delight... by o1d5ch001 · 2004-09-16 00:15 · Score: 1

Who can disagree with that?

Who indeed can disagree. I think this is a fallacies argument, but none the less it's not like Big Business to condition kids to be better consumers later.

A few years ago I worked for a fairly large ad agency that sent me around the country to talk to a couple of Internet ad-engine companies. To cut to the chase , the value of serving ads is more about collecting consumer behaviour that selling ads. Consumer information is very very valuable. So they have taken a cost center (reuniting lost kids with parents) into a behaviour monitoring program that initially they can sell to other Disney business units, but maybe others as well.

Since you do indeed like the program so much, why don't you come down to the offices Corporate Bum Boys Inc and we can have the surgically implanted RFID put into your forehead in just a couple of hours. You do want to be an early adapter don't you? As a special bonus, we will give a subscription to the NASCAR channel for three months, just for filling out our profile, I mean survey.

I try not to be a tin-hat slashdotter, but Disney deserves to get beaten up once in a while.

--
Q. What is Calvin's monster snowman called? A. The Torment Of Existence Weighed Against The Horror of Non Being
Re:And now, for your delectation and delight... by SomeoneGotMyNick · 2004-09-16 00:33 · Score: 2, Insightful

don't register to vote or you'll get jury duty

Since I recently moved, I tried re-registering to vote in the new district. My wife (hardcore Republican) said not to bother because I usually side on the independent and I would be "wasting my vote". Funny thing, when I pass by the political party tents at the local Fair, they all ask if I'm registered to vote. I say, "No". I let them speak their piece about registering to vote, and I'm usually ready to fill out the paperwork they provide as a convienience. When I mention the fact that people tell me I'd be wasting my vote because I side with Independents, they get all quiet and move on to the next person. I guess their mottos are, "Please support Democracy and register to vote (as long as you vote for us)"

Every time that happens, I see why I side with the independents.
Re:And now, for your delectation and delight... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-16 00:51 · Score: 0

Alternatively, a tin foil hat won't work but a tinfoil body suit should do the trick.
Re:And now, for your delectation and delight... by DrEldarion · 2004-09-16 00:57 · Score: 1

Yes I do - I strongly dislike the conveyor belt like layouts in zoos & parks which is what they frequently are these days. Entrance - attraction - concession - attraction - food court - attraction - concession - attraction - gift shop - exit. But that's irrelevant.

So... you'd rather have everything jumbled in a completely unorganized mess?
Re:And now, for your delectation and delight... by tsg · 2004-09-16 00:59 · Score: 1

slashdotters will spot the magic phrase "RFID", and remember that this is something the hivemind has told them they're against.

Why don't you wait until someone actually makes the argument before you start tearing it apart?

That you assume everyone will think this is a bad idea means you don't understand why they think some uses of RFID is a bad idea. Try understanding the other side before you condemn it.

--
People's desire to believe they are right is much stronger than their desire to be right.
Re:And now, for your delectation and delight... by Like2Byte · 2004-09-16 01:10 · Score: 2, Insightful

First, good points. +1 Scary.

To counter your scary, insightful points, however, I would imagine that the manufacturers of this tracking system would only allow the members of the same group find others members of their group.

I also imagine that the screens don't look anything like an air traffic controller's screen out lining race, sex and age of the individual 'blip' making a potential obductee an easier target.

Of course, on a more sinister side, once a kid was obducted dropping the RFID tag into someone else's handbad or gift bags would throw any would-be saviours off the perp's trail - whether the perp used the RFID tracking system to locate the seperated child or not.
Re:And now, for your delectation and delight... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-16 01:19 · Score: 0

Holy Crap! There is a trash can just after the
entrance that is filling up with people! Emergency! That trash can hates people!!
Re:And now, for your delectation and delight... by maxpublic · 2004-09-16 01:20 · Score: 1

Just throw the tag in the trash the moment you step into the park. It's not as if they're in a position to force compliance.

Max

--
My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
Re:And now, for your delectation and delight... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-16 01:25 · Score: 0

but the slash-molester contingent led by Jon Katz will be delighted at new ways to track children.
Re:And now, for your delectation and delight... by trout_fish · 2004-09-16 01:37 · Score: 2, Interesting

Lost children is a convenient explanation. I'm sure the park can't actually use the technology to see which bits of the park are most popular, where the best place to put concessions, what ride lengths need shortening to maximize throughput or anything like that. Oh no.
We wouldn't want them to be able to make the place better now would we!
Re:And now, for your delectation and delight... by Politburo · 2004-09-16 01:54 · Score: 1

When I mention the fact that people tell me I'd be wasting my vote because I side with Independents, they get all quiet and move on to the next person.

Did the people speaking to you say this to you? They're not out there to counter whatever myths other people have told you. They're there to register you to vote, and hopefully convince you to vote for their candidate. If you make it clear that you're not going to change your mind easily, they won't waste time on you. Did they prevent you from registering?

I guess their mottos are, "Please support Democracy and register to vote (as long as you vote for us)"

No offense, but duh. If you thought it was anything more, you were being quite naive. However, did these people actually prevent you from registering or withdraw their assistance after you mentioned you were independent?

Every time that happens, I see why I side with the independents.

The irony of that speaks for itself.
Re:And now, for your delectation and delight... by Jahf · 2004-09-16 02:17 · Score: 1

Yes, but I sense a new market!

Tin-foil helmets with chin straps anyone?

It will make you the (king|queen) of geek fashion on that trendy RFID enabled rollercoaster!

Seriously ... this is a RFID implementation that I don't mind at all and I'm one of the people who is usually decrying the technology (though not as strictly as some of the extremists here). As long as it is done in the open and via a method that is easily removed when desired I have no problem with it.

I've tried to hunt down people at the amusement park, it's a PITA.

Besides, intelligent children get to have a whole NEW park experience by putting their tag on a squirrel or an unsuspecting person. Like putting the library book alarm strip in someone's backpack and then watching the hilarity.

Worlds of Fun!

Oh wait, that's Kansas City not Florida.

--
It is more productive to voice thoughtful opinions (reply) than to judge (moderate) others.
Re:And now, for your delectation and delight... by Overzeetop · 2004-09-16 02:17 · Score: 1

Even better, get yourself a faraday cage to put it in, that way you'll have it if you need it.

--
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
Re:And now, for your delectation and delight... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-16 02:24 · Score: 1, Funny

Tin-foil helmets with chin straps anyone?
I got so fed up with losing my strapless Tin-foil helmet that I put an RFID tag in it so I could locate it at all times.
Re:And now, for your delectation and delight... by markhb · 2004-09-16 02:28 · Score: 1

I call RTFA! It's not a Disney park!

--
Save Maine's economy: write stuff down. All comments are exclusively my own, not my employer.
Re:And now, for your delectation and delight... by osgeek · 2004-09-16 02:28 · Score: 1

There's such a thing as a "win-win" situation where the park gets something (marketing data) and the park visitors get something (tracking their kids).

The "dangerous" situations you mentioned are a bit far-fetched. Is someone really going to hack into the system to track people not in their group? Wouldn't it be even easier to spirit kids out of the park when you didn't have to worry about a tracking system? At worst it sounds like a wash either way. Considering that dozens of children are lost every day in large parks, the benefit clearly outweighs the non-existent risk.

If they figure out a way to get more money out of you, it's likely that it's because they've made the experience somehow better. Considering that we have choices in how we spend our discretionary income in parks, on beaches, at the mall, at theme parks, etc. They can't force you to go there if you don't think the transaction is a fair one.

As I said before, this is a Win-Win situation. Why begrudge them for doing something innovative just because they get something out of it?

--
Why are you letting these clowns ruin our country?
Re:And now, for your delectation and delight... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-16 02:53 · Score: 0

And what about stalkers? Is there anything keeping an individual from saying he arrived late and defining himself in a group? You _know_ that some weirdo would follow his ex-girlfriend just to see if she was going on one of the love rides with anyone.

RFID looks great, but like all things it may be abused.

I do vote that we should give RFID a chance for things like this. So what if the theme park is datamining. They don't care who _you_ individually are. They care that you went on this ride twice so they should market this other ride more.
Re:And now, for your delectation and delight... by Aidtopia · 2004-09-16 02:53 · Score: 2, Insightful

This is actually a brilliant move by the RFID providers. This "how can you object?" application will be the first significant exposure many people will have to RFID. Later, when they hear about objectionable applications, they will already be biased by the good that RFID can do.
Re:And now, for your delectation and delight... by Frank+T.+Lofaro+Jr. · 2004-09-16 03:59 · Score: 1

Well, it is posted under "Your Rights Online" even though it has nothing to do with your rights or anything online.

Then again, that could be said about over 50% of stories posted in this section.

Anyway, forget about theme parks, come to Las Vegas, where it is all one big theme park. And it is family friendly so there is stuff for your kids to do.

--
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
Re:And now, for your delectation and delight... by Frank+T.+Lofaro+Jr. · 2004-09-16 04:01 · Score: 1

A smarter one yet might use the RFID to find out the where the parents were in order to avoid them before discarding it.

I don't think there are very many child abductors who are geeks. Most of them are very stupid in general.

--
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
Re:And now, for your delectation and delight... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-16 04:06 · Score: 1, Funny

And it is family friendly so there is stuff for your kids to do.
... as long as they like blackjack and hookers...
Re:And now, for your delectation and delight... by argStyopa · 2004-09-16 04:12 · Score: 2, Insightful

Is this so bad?

Yeah, I don't WANT those lines shortened to maximise throughput. No, please don't put concession stands where they are convenient to get to, I'd much rather they and the bathrooms be as inaccesible as possible. OMFG, they are gathing data on me!!! AAAGHG it's the ultimate evil - a marketer with data on ME!!! The sky is falling!

And please, your abductor scenario is so stupid it's practically a strawman.

Adult A enters park, children BCD enter park.
Tag A is associated with B, C, and D.
Even ASSuming that Adult A is prone to leave kids alone (doubtful), if kid without RFID tag, or with RFID tag and without associated adult tries to exit, one might suspect a few questions.

Enough anyway that child predators likely would seek easier targets elsewhere.

--
-Styopa
Re:And now, for your delectation and delight... by penginkun · 2004-09-16 04:19 · Score: 1

Lost children is a convenient explanation. I'm sure the park can't actually use the technology to see which bits of the park are most popular, where the best place to put concessions, what ride lengths need shortening to maximize throughput or anything like that. Oh no.
Well, if they use it for that, so what? Is there something wrong with the park wanting to make more money? Anyway, if they can see which parts of the park are most popular, they can figure out ways to make the rest of the park more appealing, which makes for a more enjoyable visit. Sounds like a win-win situation to me, but feel free to continue being indignant.
Perhaps it is better that kids are chaperoned by their parents rather than tracked by chips after all.
I suppose you never wandered off from your parents, or got lost somehow? I can't tell you how often I got lost or separated from my parents when we went out. It wasn't that they didn't care enough to keep track of me. It's that I was so darned good at getting away from them. If my Mom could have used an RFID chip to keep track of me at the zoo, she would have done so in a hot second. If I had kids, I'd want something like this myself. I know what it's like to be lost, separated from my parents and afraid. If I knew I could find them easily, I wouldn't have to be so afraid.
So let's see...the park can make more money (the whole reason they're in business to begin with, after all), and you can have a more enjoyable time, and you can keep track of your family. How is this a bad thing, exactly?
Re:And now, for your delectation and delight... by Dashing+Leech · 2004-09-16 04:43 · Score: 1

...is an appalling infringement of their civil liberties
Nope. In this case it appears to be voluntary. The problem people have is when you unknowingly can be tracked through RFID tags. There may be an issue with stalkers or pedophiles also being able to track people in this park, but I imagine that's not an easy task.
Re:And now, for your delectation and delight... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-16 07:21 · Score: 0

slashdotters will spot the magic phrase "RFID", and remember that this is something the hivemind has told them they're against. /me looks to see that you have a /.. id.

You're either stupid, or have no sense of contradiction.
Re:And now, for your delectation and delight... by husker_man · 2004-09-16 08:04 · Score: 1

In other words, it's hard to see how an RFID helps that much at all. It will help in your everyday lost child situation, but it instills a false sense of security at the same time.

Just this past weekend, my oldest boy turned 7. We went to Chuck-E-Cheese (you know, the place of the cardboard pizza and noisy gameroom). Each member of my family got stamped with a UV-visible stamp to make sure that no one could take one of my kids out of that place without a matching stamp on an adult. If the park checks at exit time that the kid's RFID bracelet matches up with the parent's RFID bracelet, then I would say that it would help in providing security. And if it prevented someone from grabbing a kid and trying to hustle them out of there without the parent's knowledge, I'd be all for it.

Personally, I would never allow any of my kids at their ages to be out of sight from me at one of these parks in any event.
Re:And now, for your delectation and delight... by Thuktun · 2004-09-16 08:06 · Score: 1

Perhaps it is better that kids are chaperoned by their parents rather than tracked by chips after all.

Being chaperoned and tightly-monitored by their parents is no guarantee that a child won't get lost or stolen. It only takes looking away for a moment. A child can easily walk a couple feet and practically disappear, and they don't always hear or choose to respond when you call for them. This is particularly true for heavily-crowded, highly-distracting areas like Disney parks in season.

Speaking as someone with three kids, none of whom are over 10, I would really appreciate something that would track them if they got separated from us. I would love it if the kids' tags could be keyed to cause a security-summoning alarm if it tried to leave the park without an authorized, tagged adult with it.
Re:And now, for your delectation and delight... by scifiber_phil · 2004-09-16 11:46 · Score: 1

Don't want your data mined? Don't go to the supermarket. Noone's forcing you to eat.
Re:And now, for your delectation and delight... by PetoskeyGuy · 2004-09-16 15:46 · Score: 1

Why? Well the parents will be more inclined to leave a tagged child on his / her own because he / she can be tracked. As a consequence there are more separated children within the park. Even an unsophisticated abducter could just grab a random lone child and make a beeline for the exit - once out the park the RFID is no good. A smarter abductor would remove the RFID tag first. A smarter one yet might use the RFID to find out the where the parents were in order to avoid them before discarding it.

I couldn't agree more. The first thing I thought when I read this is that sure it seems safe, but all someone has to do is wrap your kid in tin foil before you exit the park.

On a more serious note though, it would seem that by offering these services they are possibly making themselves liable if an abduction does happen. I mean before they could argue, look we just let people in the park. Now some lawyer could argue that they should have known that when a child of age X suddenly wandered away from his group that all was not well.
Re:And now, for your delectation and delight... by DrXym · 2004-09-16 21:40 · Score: 1

Stamping is an example of good security. There is no ulterior motive for doing it - it's simply to protect you and your kids. Neither would I consider RFID to be bad - if it were voluntary. That would imply again, that the park is doing it for the safety and protection of its guests.

What I'm objecting to here is the fact that everyone is required to use RFID whether they have kids or are in groups or not. This casts suspicion on what the point of it is for in the first place.
Re:And now, for your delectation and delight... by SomeoneGotMyNick · 2004-09-17 00:16 · Score: 1

No offense, but duh. If you thought it was anything more, you were being quite naive.

Here's a naive statement, but it's true. Has it gotten so bad that politics will never be a "gentlemen's game" anymore? Backstabbing, mudslinging. The candidates should be thanking the people who are registered to vote for being registered BEFORE thanking them for considering them as a candidate. It first takes registered voters to make the process work. But through all the hype and "register to vote" ads, the candidates and campaign workers fail to recognize the core component of the democratic system, the Voters. Without us, there's no them.

However, did these people actually prevent you from registering or withdraw their assistance after you mentioned you were independent?

Once I had the paperwork, I could register. But for some reason, I wasn't able to get anybody's attention to get questions answered.
Re:And now, for your delectation and delight... by RosebudLTD · 2004-09-17 05:00 · Score: 1

Nowhere in the article does it mention that every visitor would be tagged.

On occasion I work in data logistics for a company that owns some thirty theme parks. I can say pretty strongly that trying to force something like that on every guest that entered the park would be a waste of time...

You know the photo greeters that meet you by the gates, to take your picture? Average number of people per group, 4.5 or so. One of the company's largest parks pulled in 3.5 million visitors last season (according to their own press releases, at least), and was open about 160 days. Some quick math tells us that on any given day of operation, there are about 4900 of those groups in the park... assume that most of those groups are harassed and photographed. On average, 200 of those groups return to at least see their photos later in the day. More than 90% blow it off... why? Because they don't like being hassled. (I don't blame them... I hate the photo gimps, personally)

Issue something to every guest as they enter, and I'll bet you that 90% are going to just discard them. A good number of folks will question what you are giving them... let's imagine that it takes 20 seconds for a staff person to explain the tags (and they aren't the brightest, themselves). That's a serious slowdown at the gates, regardless of the benefit... and especially when you consider that most guests will just discard them, if possible.

A park would be braindead to try that.

As well, there is no way that you could 'group' people together as they come through the gates, without incurring a big slowdown. "Ok, so how many people in your group? Oh, some of your group split up, to go through different gates? Arghh..."

It be easier to spot kids, and point them (and their guardians) over towards kiosks just inside the gates. There, the tags could be linked, and the system explained. Other groups could be led there by signs... and if they choose not to use it, their loss. In time, if the system is valuable, they'll learn of it on their own.
Re:And now, for your delectation and delight... by RosebudLTD · 2004-09-17 05:15 · Score: 1

Abductions are a very very minor percentage of the number of kids that go missing. This isn't so much about 'saving kids', as 'saving parents' and 'reducing waste'.

I've worked with the park industry, and I can tell you this much... in a larger park, a good day is when 15-20 kids go missing, and their frantic parents come running for help. A bad day can be double that.

Generally, policy is for a staff peon to grab 4 other peons, and take a quick sweep of the area within 100 feet. Most lost kids are found like that. The idea is to avoid panicking or alarming the guests needlessly... that's not good for anyone.

In the 2 or 3 per day that are not found in a quick sweep, it can take a major mobilization of staff to start hunting around the park. I'm sure I'll get critisized for saying this, but if it's possible to avoid that expense of time and manpower, a park would jump at the chance.

If these RFID tags could solve the problem, or even reduce it, I say it's a win-win. The parents worry less, the parks waste less manpower, everyone is happier.
Re:And now, for your delectation and delight... by Alphtoo · 2004-09-18 02:54 · Score: 1

Aw, Bullshit! You can mic them in the nucrowave, but the only way to get a nice, crispy crust on 'em is to fry there little butts. After nukin' them, dunk them into very hot oil for a few minutes. You might want to bread them first (I'd use a buttermilk / egg / cornmeal concoction) but they should come out real nice. BTW, don't tell anybody I told you this.

Marketing Research Tool? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-15 19:49 · Score: 2, Insightful

To me, this sounds more like a boon in marketing research than a breach in privacy. After all, theme parks have guards & cameras everywhere these days.

and.. by Turn-X+Alphonse · 2004-09-15 19:50 · Score: 4, Insightful

link you to any vandalism or trouble making.

They can pin point your location so lets say a little boy and a "older man" magicly end up in the same toilet cubicle..... well then :)

Could be very useful for this kinda thing

--
I like muppets.

Re:and.. by Gabrill · 2004-09-15 20:51 · Score: 1

Tag this, you M-Fer!
Oh wait! No don't! Get away! Get aw--OUUUCH!
. . . Hey Mom! Look what I got pierced!

--
Always going forward, 'cause we can't find reverse.
Re:and.. by gl4ss · 2004-09-15 22:30 · Score: 1

i doubt they got detectors in every damn toilet cubicle.

as for vandalism linking.. cameras are more useful.

and as for following someone.. eyes are much more useful.

--
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
Re:and.. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-15 23:42 · Score: 0

Noooo, RFID is not GPS you morans! They can't pinpoint your location unless you pass a turnstile.
Re:and.. by falonaj · 2004-09-16 07:19 · Score: 1

They can pin point your location so lets say a little boy and a "older man" magicly end up in the same toilet cubicle.

How will they know the "older man" is not the dad helping his son who is yet to small to go there alone?
Re:and.. by FurryFeet · 2004-09-21 08:14 · Score: 1

Yeah, God forbid I help my 2 year old son to go potty.
Really, I can tell you don't have kids, or you'd realize you end up with them in the bathroom a hell of a lot more often that you'd like.
In other words, your scenario would draw way, way too many false positives. And the bathroom is not a good place to raid your honest patrons.

Theme parks freak me out.. by k98sven · 2004-09-15 19:50 · Score: 4, Insightful

Am I the only one who is gets a bit freaked out by theme parks?

Sure, there is this nice image of happiness and friendliness.. but it's also obviously fake and false. (Even as a 7-year old at disneyland, I felt it)

At the same time, there are guards and surveillance cameras everywhere, not to mention the rigorous safety measures.

It's like being inside a Soviet propaganda movie or something.

And that was before they started tagging people. I can't say I'm surprized.

Re:Theme parks freak me out.. by EmperorKagato · 2004-09-15 19:55 · Score: 1

Big Brother is Watching! 1984 perhaps?
I do see RFID being used to help locate your children. However, I am also getting the image of some demented hack that decides to abuse the network kidnap someone's son or daughter and hold them for ransom. I also seeing it being able to stop incidents like this to occur, then again, money can be anyone's best friend.

--
----- You know you have ego issues when you register a domain in your name.
Re:Theme parks freak me out.. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-15 20:14 · Score: 0

Because kidnappings and ransom demands never happened before RFID came along. Right?
Re:Theme parks freak me out.. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-15 20:34 · Score: 1, Funny

Try getting stuck on that one ride. You know. The one with the song "It's a small world, after all...". That song. For 3 _hours_ when the ride had "unforseen technical issues". I was 7. I think it affected me. To this day when I see Disneyland commercials on television I start to twitch.
Re:Theme parks freak me out.. by 0123456 · 2004-09-15 22:52 · Score: 1

"Because kidnappings and ransom demands never happened before RFID came along"

They happened... but tagging your kids is only going to make it easier for a kidnapper to find them. I don't see that as a win.
Re:Theme parks freak me out.. by Moderatbastard · 2004-09-15 23:06 · Score: 1

It's like being inside a Soviet propaganda movie or something.
In Soviet Russia, propaganda movie is in YOU!!!!!

--
1/3 of jokes get modded OT. If you get the joke, mod 1 in 3 insightful/interesting/underrated to restore karma balance.
Re:Theme parks freak me out.. by Oligonicella · 2004-09-15 23:21 · Score: 1

Puh-lease. Take off at least a couple of pounds of tin-foil. At a theme park the kids are rampantly everywhere. Finding them was never a problem.

Why don't you at least create a novel problem?
Re:Theme parks freak me out.. by Scrab · 2004-09-15 23:43 · Score: 1

Wasn't there some story about a painting of a guard on Disneyland, with grenades, and everything?

--
RoseColor red={0, 0xffff, 0x0000, 0x0000};VioletColour blue={0, 0x0000, 0x0000, 0xffff};find / -name *mybase*|chown you
Re:Theme parks freak me out.. by AllUsernamesAreGone · 2004-09-16 00:07 · Score: 1

Brings a whole new meaning to digesting a film...
Re:Theme parks freak me out.. by kbogert · 2004-09-16 00:12 · Score: 2, Interesting

You should read the book "The geography of Nowhere" by James Howard Kunstler Amazon Link

Here's a few choice quotes from a chapter entitled "Capitals of Unreality"

The entry procedure approximates the American Protestant concept of going to heaven. One leaves behind the gritty real world and mills around a pleasant and familiar outdoor place of assembly -- strangers all happily anticipating pleasures to come. Finally, there is that glorious moment of passing through the pearly gates! From a child's point of view, the day ahead must seem like eternity.

After waiting in line you are herded into a cable-driven boat -- "Quickly! Quickly!" the attendants cry -- and hauled through a series of darkened chambers where you gawk at animated tableaux. ... Because everything is preprogrammed or scripted down to the last detail, there is an inescapable air of mechanized boredom to these goings-on. Even children sense it.

A recurring feature in nearly every attraction is the theme of death and mayhem. At every turn you encounter scenes of it. This is somewhat different from the bodily thrills of speed and motion offered by ordinary amusement park rides. ... You turn down the short stretch of Disney's "western" street in Frontierland, and actors dressed as gunman are suddenly plugging each other. You, the passerby, are supposed to be lucky to be there when this is happening. (A hundred years from now do you suppose they will recreate the drive-by shootings of LA gangs for the amusement of children? How about the spectacular fast-food store massacres in recent years?)
Re:Theme parks freak me out.. by metamatic · 2004-09-16 01:16 · Score: 1, Insightful

Am I the only one who is gets a bit freaked out by theme parks?

Sure, there is this nice image of happiness and friendliness.. but it's also obviously fake and false. (Even as a 7-year old at disneyland, I felt it)

At the same time, there are guards and surveillance cameras everywhere, not to mention the rigorous safety measures.

Welcome to America. Oh, wait, you were talking about theme parks...

--
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
Re:Theme parks freak me out.. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-16 01:51 · Score: 0

Am I the only one who thinks Slashdot should change their tagline to
"News for Nuts. Stuff the Government doesn't want you to know"

The level of tinfoilhatedness here lately is beyond belief.

Oh yeah, I'm posting AC so the govt cant find me.
Re:Theme parks freak me out.. by Politburo · 2004-09-16 01:57 · Score: 1

Let's just assume that a hack could easily get into the network and fully access the data in realtime and remotely. What advantage does this really provide? If someone wants to kidnap a child, all they have to do is wait for the right opportunity. RFID isn't going to help them. It's easy to spot rich people, especially when they travel.
Re:Theme parks freak me out.. by FuzzyShrimp · 2004-09-16 05:53 · Score: 1

If you don't like the way Disney does things in the park then the Stay The F out. Simple as that.
Re:Theme parks freak me out.. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-16 12:10 · Score: 0

If you don't have anything interesting to say, STFU.
Simple as that, too.
Re:Theme parks freak me out.. by Lehk228 · 2004-09-16 13:13 · Score: 1

Brings a whole new meaning to digesting a film...
...Or getting raped at the movie theatre

--
Snowden and Manning are heroes.

But is it open to abuse? by Atrax · 2004-09-15 19:50 · Score: 5, Interesting

For a theme park, I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing. One of my least favorite things about theme parks is the potential to lose the rest of your party - resulting in much tedious wandering around. sure, you can call or SMS, but this seems like a genuinely good feature.

Can the park individually track where you are? probably, but it's their right to do so - you've voluntarily entered their private property after all, and paid for the privilege. Can they track your preferences within the park? probably.

will they store any personal identifiers? there's the rub. if their database links your RFID tag to the visa card number you paid with, THEN we're talking problems, and of course the article doesn't make it clear if this can happen or not...

--
Screw you all! I'm off to the pub

Re:But is it open to abuse? by Zeal17 · 2004-09-15 20:08 · Score: 1

Well, the real trick is to make it optional, and give you incentive to use it. They could probably charge people for the option of being able to track your party, and get the marketing research out of it too. It's the next best thing to convincing people to pay you for the right to wear their billboard around. (oh, wait)

--

"If it sucks without butter, it still sucks with butter, only creamier." - AC
Re:But is it open to abuse? by Threni · 2004-09-15 21:18 · Score: 1

> For a theme park, I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing.

RFID is not bad anywhere. It's like cookies on a website - what's the big deal?
Re:But is it open to abuse? by akadruid · 2004-09-15 21:35 · Score: 1

RFID is not bad anywhere. It's like cookies on a website - what's the big deal?

At the moment.

Fast forward two years:

As you board your train to work, a member of the trains company's private 'Homeland Security Force' stops you.
"Excuse me sir. The RFID you are carrying does not match your VISA card. Step this way please..."

In two years we'll have National Identity cards in the UK too.

and probably tattoos on our foreheads. /me goes off to church while he still can.

--
"Those who cast the votes decide nothing; those who count the votes decide everything." (attrib. Joseph Stalin)
Re:But is it open to abuse? by Threni · 2004-09-15 21:59 · Score: 1

> "Excuse me sir. The RFID you are carrying does not match your VISA card. Step
> this way please..."

It's rather unlikely a security measure would arise which would require citizens to apply for VISA cards.

> In two years we'll have National Identity cards in the UK too.

Yes, but what does that have to do wit RFID cards in theme parks? Besides, having to carry an ID card doesn't seem to be causing any problems in Europe. All this waffle about having to account for yourself - you have to do that already. You try refusing to tell a policeman who you are, what you are doing, where you live etc now, and see how long it takes before he arrests you and leaves in in his police station's cells overnight. If anything ID cards will prevent this, as the policeman will take your ID card from you and use it to confirm your identity, or take your fingerprint and use it to look up who you are on a database.

> and probably tattoos on our foreheads.

I can't believe you think you'll have to have tattoos.

> /me goes off to church while he still can.

Why would you want to go to church?
Re:But is it open to abuse? by akadruid · 2004-09-15 22:00 · Score: 1

Completely off-topic, but you do know when the forehead tattoos come, it will be the church that gives them, right?

ah but which church? and will they sell the marketing rights to your choice of psuedo-democratic government/unethical corperation/secret new world order?

tin foil fallout shelters will not protect us should the demeritocracies of the world finally prove capeable of cohesive thought or desicive action.

as a side note, I am aware of the predictions in the book of revelation. Fortunately, I have a get-out clause - my Saviour is returning for me before the anti-christ comes to power, so I will have a rather better seat to watch this from. I would recommend anyone else who is worried about it to check out their options before its too late!

--
"Those who cast the votes decide nothing; those who count the votes decide everything." (attrib. Joseph Stalin)
Re:But is it open to abuse? by Jah-Wren+Ryel · 2004-09-15 23:21 · Score: 1

Can the park individually track where you are? probably, but it's their right to do so - you've voluntarily entered their private property after all ...

if their database links your RFID tag to the visa card number you paid with, THEN we're talking problems

So what? You've voluntarily entered their private property and voluntarily given them your VISA number and paid for the privilege after all.

You should just shut up and enjoy yourself since, if they want to stick a a popsicle with an RFID up your ass, it is their private property after all and you did pay for the privilege of that popsicle.

Seriously though, I fail to see how you can justify one boundry and not another -- their tracking of CC usage is just as potentially invasive as their tracking of when you ate lunch and when you went to the bathroom. Ultimately, it may be their private property but they have opened it to the public, at which point the space loses a lot of the privileges of ownership that it would have it were kept locked up with a "no trespassing" sign.

--
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
Re:But is it open to abuse? by akadruid · 2004-09-16 00:34 · Score: 1

TBH I thought the tattoo remark drew attention to the humour, but I suppose we could consider some aspects seriously.

The situation I was suggesting was a private company (trains) having access to a much wider array of information and abusing it under the false flag of security.

Fortunatly our governments have yet to display the coordination required to seriously abuse our rights with the data available to them.

I go to church to worship God, and I will continue to do so even should our society slide to the point where freedom of religious expression is no longer a protected right. Fortunately this does not seem to be happening yet - but you should never be complacent about your rights.

--
"Those who cast the votes decide nothing; those who count the votes decide everything." (attrib. Joseph Stalin)
Re:But is it open to abuse? by Frank+T.+Lofaro+Jr. · 2004-09-16 04:04 · Score: 1

Great untrackable way of paying for stuff:

CASH.

(well untrackable unless Homeland Security or the DEA wants to find you - in which case you are very likely in BIG trouble anyway)

--
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
Re:But is it open to abuse? by Tassach · 2004-09-16 04:36 · Score: 1

That works until they start putting RFID tags in your cash too... and don't think about microwaving your money to kill the tags, because doing so will render the currency valueless and/or get you arrested for counterfeiting or some similar charge. (Defacing currency is already illegal in the US)

--
Why is it that the proponents of "one nation under God" are so eager to get rid of "liberty and justice for all"?

get it right by simonharvey · 2004-09-15 19:50 · Score: 4, Insightful

this is about tagging kids in theme parks so their friends can see if they are there, it is nothing to do with peoples rights being violated online.

move on, nothing to see here

Re:get it right by bdeclerc · 2004-09-15 19:56 · Score: 1

Just pretend that in this case "YRO" stands for "Your Rights Off-line"
Re:get it right by Atrax · 2004-09-15 20:03 · Score: 1

> it is nothing to do with peoples rights being violated online

You must be new here. Welcome to Slashdot, simonharvey!

--
Screw you all! I'm off to the pub
Re:get it right by whorfin · 2004-09-16 02:00 · Score: 4, Funny

Acually, based on what a theme park experience tends to be, this would be "Your Rights In Line"

--
Laugh while you can, monkey-boy!

First time I saw RFID and didn't flip out. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-15 19:51 · Score: 2, Interesting

Not bad of an idea. Maybe they'll have some pad you swipe your tag near and it'll show your party on the screen. Can you use it to buy stuff too? How about stealing someone else's tag and getting crap w/ it?

Nope... I didn't read the article.

The folly of it all! by raehl · 2004-09-15 19:51 · Score: 2, Funny

It's going to be a huge problem when these people wander near the sharks with frickin' RFID-tracking laser beams attached to their heads.

--
paintball

Re:The folly of it all! by shfted! · 2004-09-15 21:21 · Score: 1, Funny

Don't worry. The sharks have been replaced with ill-tempered seabass with barcode readers.

--
He who laughs last is stuck in a time dilation bubble.
Re:The folly of it all! by mikeleigh · 2004-09-15 23:45 · Score: 1

You mean the sales clerks ...

Seems OK by neilmoore67 · 2004-09-15 19:52 · Score: 5, Insightful

OK, I not a die-hard libertarian, but this seems like a good idea. This is not the same as tracking someone's movements all the time, as a theme park is ostensibly not the real world. It should stop kids from being getting lost; and it would save school and youth organisation groups from having to hammer around in those big chain gangs with flags, etc.

--
You've probably noticed that people's noses get bigger as they get older. That's because old people are huge liars.

Re:Seems OK by SamNmaX · 2004-09-15 21:01 · Score: 2, Interesting

OK, I not a die-hard libertarian, but this seems like a good idea. This is not the same as tracking someone's movements all the time, as a theme park is ostensibly not the real world. It should stop kids from being getting lost; and it would save school and youth organisation groups from having to hammer around in those big chain gangs with flags, etc.
I see nothing wrong with this use of RFID tags, as the users of it *want* it to be used for tracking. There's no reason this wouldn't be a 'good' thing if it were done with GPS instead of RFID.
The problem with RFID tags is that if a large number of the goods we buy have them, then it's easy for someone to put RFID readers out there so that when you pass them, they know what you are currently holding, which will likely lead to targetted advertising as you walk down the streets. I.e., if you are the type of person to buy expensive clothing, don't be suprised if you tend to get extra attention while shopping from the sales people.
If such readers are networked, they can be used as a way of tracking your position. This 'feature' will not for *you* to see where your friends and family are like in the example in the article, but for others.
Re:Seems OK by neilmoore67 · 2004-09-15 21:12 · Score: 2, Interesting

I suppose another thing that might be advantageous for all (not just parents) is that the park could take quite an abstract view of people's whereabouts in the park; just dots from a bird's eye view. That way they could watch crowd problems happening and take action to stop any dangerous crowd phenomena, or try to ease large queues by suggesting that people try one of the less busy attractions.

--
You've probably noticed that people's noses get bigger as they get older. That's because old people are huge liars.
Re:Seems OK by CosmeticLobotamy · 2004-09-15 21:58 · Score: 1

I'm not against it either, I'll just have to make arrangements to go to a different park when I start having secret affairs with celebrities.
Re:Seems OK by dasunt · 2004-09-15 22:03 · Score: 1

The problem with RFID tags is that if a large number of the goods we buy have them, then it's easy for someone to put RFID readers out there so that when you pass them, they know what you are currently holding, which will likely lead to targetted advertising as you walk down the streets. I.e., if you are the type of person to buy expensive clothing, don't be suprised if you tend to get extra attention while shopping from the sales people.

I hope the RFID tags survive long enough to make it to the thrift stores. I prefer expensive clothing, but have no problem buying it second hand.

I can't wait until I wander through the mall and attract every saleperson there. ;)
Re:Seems OK by mikechant · 2004-09-15 22:18 · Score: 1

The problem with RFID tags is that if a large number of the goods we buy have them, then it's easy for someone to put RFID readers out there so that when you pass them, they know what you are currently holding, which will likely lead to targetted advertising as you walk down the streets.

I'm much more worried about targetted *mugging*. If a mugger with a portable scanner can detect the (unremovable) RFID tags on your iPOD, digital camera etc. then you'd hardly dare leave the house with these things.
Re:Seems OK by dave1791 · 2004-09-15 22:31 · Score: 3, Insightful

As most RFID tags in use are the el-cheapo "just respond with a serial number" type, I would be hard pressed to find a way that it would be terribly useful to a third party. At the moment, there is not even a standard ID system for RFID tags, but lets assume that there is for a moment; e.g. one similar to EAN. So you walk into a store and the scanner at the door reads SN#s 123456789, 987654321, blah, blah. Great! The store's CRM system is going to love this.

Now how do they correlate that with product information? Or, where do they get the "master data" (name, maker, stats, etc - catalog info) for that product? If it is something in their database already (e.g. a product that they sell), then they might be able to do a match against it. Otherwise, you have some anonymous product in your possession. Oh yeah, and do this all in realtime.

Now assuming they managed to score all that info from someplace. What will they do with it? Most stories about what CRM can do, such as men buying beer between 5 and 6 PM tend to correlate with men buying diapers in the same time frame; hence the store put diapers and beer together and profits went up, are just that; stories. In fact, they don't put the wealth of information they already get from customer cards to very sophisticated use.

Now if I could put a custom RFID tag on my keys and shoes, I could figure out where I put my keys and wallet what my kids did with my left shoe.
Re:Seems OK by TiggsPanther · 2004-09-15 22:37 · Score: 3, Insightful

This is one of those thigns I'm in two minds about. On the one hand being a private person and somewhat paranoid about quite how much information people can get/keep I have to admit being rather worried about something like this being abused.

However I've been a youth leader on a trip to a theme park this summer, trying to round up the final stragglers about half an hour after the deadline to get back to the coach.
And when we finally found them? They were queueing up for food - which in turn they'd have to finish before being allowed back on the coach. (Terms of hiring)
There was also the point on the same trip where all of the leaders were on the lookout for the trip organiser. Half an hour of searching and I bumped into him by accident by the front gates.

So yeah. On the one hand I don't like the idea of people being able to track me, and i am concerned about the security of such a system making sure that only party members could find people - not stalkers and the like.
But on the other hand I've recently been in a position of being unable to track down party members at such a place. And if you've booked a coach for a certain time you have to be able to round everybody up by a set time.
Tiggs

--
Tiggs
"120 chars should be enough for everyone..."
Re:Seems OK by SagSaw · 2004-09-16 00:04 · Score: 1

As most RFID tags in use are the el-cheapo "just respond with a serial number" type, I would be hard pressed to find a way that it would be terribly useful to a third party.

One word: Aggregator.

A company could 'buy' RFID information from retailers, say at a rate of 1 cent per 1000 person-item or item-item links. They could then sell that information to other parties. For example, you buy a set of tires with embedded RFID tags. The tire store sells the aggregator four person-item links, one for each tire.

Next, when you go through the drive-through at McDonalds, their RFID reader embedded in the drive-through lane reads the tire RFID tags (or any others in range on your vehicle) and sells the aggregator an item-item link for each tire to the super-size value meal you bought.

Finally, your health insurance company pays the aggregator for a list of items you probably bought. They see that someone in your vehicle buys a lot of meals from McDonalds, and raises your rates on the assumption that you are probably over-weight, with high-blood pressure and chlorestoral. Next, you auto insurance company pays for the same information and raises your auto insurance rated based on the assumption that you must be eating alot while driving.

As you and other's have said, there is nothing inharently bad about RFID as long as I know it's there and I can turn it off. That way, if companies start pulling tricks like the above, I can disable tags in items I buy.

--
Come test your mettle in the world of Alter Aeon!
Re:Seems OK by dave1791 · 2004-09-16 01:29 · Score: 1

Perhaps, but I think it may be less of an enhanced risk.

I am not sure that a company would be willing to sell its information that they do not want competitors to have and we already have these aggregators. This sort of thing happens already, but it is usually not the retailer that does it. I once bought a bottle of wine with a credit card. Mysteriously, I began to get wine related junkmail. This was clearly the credit card company as the wine shop (in downtown Montreal in this case) has no interest in advertising me as one of their customers; it risks a competitor "stealing me".

The wine shop itself may more likely be interested in using one of those tags that launches a DOS attack against unauthorized readers (I once read an RSA whitepaper on these, but I do not have the link handy) than in advertising me as somebody that buys expensive bottles of wine.

I could be wrong here. It boils down to a company weighing the cost of having customers "stolen" versus the gain in selling this data to an aggregator.

What I consider more likely is a clearing house for product master data. You enter a store and there are say six rfid tags on you. These six tags are queried against the clearing house database and return xml messages containing the product info, which you can now use to increase the "depth" of knowledge about a customer. Manufacturers would be willing to provide this information for a cut of the revenues and they would not be at risk to loose customers.

But they apparently can already get this information from your credit card company...

Dude! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-15 19:52 · Score: 2, Funny

Dude! Where's my Ki...

Woah. Gnarly.

Thanks Mouseman.

Great by Eudial · 2004-09-15 19:53 · Score: 0

Now everyone needs a tin foil hat.

Seriously though, i'm not sure agree to be tracked, where i am and what i do is my buissnes. If they wanna track me they'd atleast have to invest in a private-eye.

--
GAAH! MY PRINTER IS ON FIRE!!! PUT IT OUT! PUT IT OUT!

Re:Great by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-15 20:16 · Score: 1, Insightful

Simple solution for you, then. Don't go into this theme-park. It's their park, they can set whatever rules they want. If I don't like them, I won't go there.

No "rights" issue here, move along...
Re:Great by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-15 20:27 · Score: 0

Now everyone needs a tin foil hat.

Okay, then here you go:

http://tinfoilhat.shmoo.com

Oh wait, er ...

You were talking about one you'd actually wear? In public? That's just silly!
Re:Great by Lurker+McLurker · 2004-09-15 23:54 · Score: 1

No, that's not the only valid way to act. If you don't agree with something, write a letter, tell your friends who are thinking of going your concerns. Hand out some leaflets outside the gate, contact organisations who campaign about that sort of thing.
Don't just shrug and move on.

Personally, I wouldn't care if they were handing out bracelets designed for this specific purpose. I'd take them myslef I was going with a bunch of kids. But if they are being included in standard admission armbands, that is unacceptable. That's the problem with RFID,it's so small and inexpensive it can be embedded anywhere, not just devices created for tracking purposes.

--
Mod parent up!

Goddamnit! by raehl · 2004-09-15 19:54 · Score: 4, Funny

How am I supposed to have any fun if I can't accidentally get separated from the wife?

--
paintball

Re:Goddamnit! by hashwolf · 2004-09-15 20:00 · Score: 2, Funny

"How am I supposed to have any fun if I can't accidentally get separated from the wife?"

Just place your RFID tag in your mother-in-law's handbag.

That should do the trick.

--
- "They misunderestimated me."
Re:Goddamnit! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-15 20:16 · Score: 0

And what if that RFID tag was later discovered with your father??
Re:Goddamnit! by msim · 2004-09-15 20:24 · Score: 1, Funny

Just find another bloke trying to do the same thing and then start having some fun :-D

--

Life is like a box of chocolates, you never know when your gonna get food poisoning.
Re:Goddamnit! by The_Mr_Flibble · 2004-09-15 21:10 · Score: 1

Or keep moving she'll have to go to the terminal to find out were you are by the time she gets to were the machine says you are you're not there anymore.
Re:Goddamnit! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-16 00:04 · Score: 0

According to our records, your husband is in:

Quadrant 3, section 2, garbage can.

Would you like directins to garbage can?

Re:hmmm by Atrax · 2004-09-15 19:55 · Score: 1

well, the monitors are throughout the park. you just check monitors as you get closer. if your friends are doing the same then you inevitably get closer.

of course if they hate you and they're deliberately trying to ditch you, then the knife cuts both ways ;-)

--
Screw you all! I'm off to the pub

UN Black Helicopters by mrshowtime · 2004-09-15 19:55 · Score: 3, Funny

Wow! Now you can find your other family members via a tracking system. Next thing you know the government will be using it to "track" you in airports, grocery stores, masterbating in the bathroom, etc. In Mexico they are implanting RFID tags into goverment officical to track them in case of kidnapping. "Experts" say that there is nothing to fear. Yeah, right. My paranoid buddy said a few years ago that the dreaded U.N. black helicopters could fly over your house and scan it to see how much money you had in it. Now that's possible; The EU is putting RFID tags in it's money. Also, within 5 years, EVERYTHING you can buy will have the damn tags on it.

I hate to sound like an apocalypse nut, but within 15 years it will be capable of one individual (i.e. antichrist) to control/track just about everyone on the planet, including money and food.

--
"Jeremy, you need to get to an internet cafe and cut and paste some appropriate sentiments about me from the world wide

Re:UN Black Helicopters by mikrorechner · 2004-09-15 20:02 · Score: 1

You're spreading FUD.
The UN want your money, right.
And the EU is no closer to putting RFID tags into the Euro bills than the US into Dollars.

Oh wait, now I read the antichrist part. You're just a troll. Sorry for responding.

--
"Oh, a lesson in not changing history from Mr I'm-my-own-Grandpa." - Dr Hubert Farnsworth
Re:UN Black Helicopters by wibs · 2004-09-15 20:04 · Score: 1

I'm picking up hints of grave seriousness and tongue-in-cheek sarcasm from your post. I really have no idea if you mean what you said or not. But just in case you are serious, calm down, smoke some pot, and remember that the UN hardly has the power to police itself within its own facilities.

--
If you get nervous, just remember that there are a few billion other people who don't really give a damn.
Re:UN Black Helicopters by commodoresloat · 2004-09-15 20:32 · Score: 3, Funny

remember that the UN hardly has the power to police itself within its own facilities.
Yeah, but once they use their black helicopters to see how much money we all have and take the money, then they'll be able to pay for better police, and then we're in really big trouble.
Re:UN Black Helicopters by foobsr · 2004-09-15 21:55 · Score: 1

I hate to sound like an apocalypse nut, but within 15 years it will be capable of one individual ...

Yes, we are approaching the Gates of Heaven. Or is it more a Bushfire in the vicinity of Hell ?

CC.

--
TaijiQuan (Huang, 5 loosenings)
Re:UN Black Helicopters by Moderatbastard · 2004-09-15 22:01 · Score: 1

I hate to sound like an apocalypse nut
Presumably you're getting paid for it, then?

--
1/3 of jokes get modded OT. If you get the joke, mod 1 in 3 insightful/interesting/underrated to restore karma balance.
Re:UN Black Helicopters by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-16 00:47 · Score: 0

As much as I shudder when I hear the conspiracy nuts at it again....

There are black helos... government(s) use them for 'non-attributable' operations, several used to be based in Florida (Hueys 91-93 time frame), no lights, no markings.

The denomination strip in the 'new' currency is detectable by at least the 'security' at the airport. If they really cared, they could tell that you're lying about how much cash you're leaving the country with on that trip to Amsterdam ;)
Re:UN Black Helicopters by Deliveranc3 · 2004-09-16 00:51 · Score: 1

They'll steal our money and buy better black helicopters! There's no end it's flawless!

Is it voluntary? by usefool · 2004-09-15 19:55 · Score: 5, Insightful

Slashdot says the park is tagging everybody, but the article says it's issuing tags to everyone. So is the park really 'tagging' everyone as they enter? Like what happens to cows?

Anyway, unless it's mandatory, it should be okay. It's pretty close to being watched by CC cameras when you wonder around a department store.

--
Uselessful technology (Air-Charged

Re:Is it voluntary? by Atrax · 2004-09-15 20:01 · Score: 3, Insightful

yeah, but (as I've noted in an earlier reply) what if the tag ID is linked to the visa account you paid with.

Let's say you go into the park, pay by credit card, wander round a bit and the system tracks you and your activities. Now if the company in question (lets say Disney) can link the ID to your CC number, and if they retain the data, then they'll be able to tightly market to you later based on what you did at the park.

Hung around a lot in the little kids park? you likely have small children, so we can market kids stuff to you. Sit in the bar all day while the rest of the party wandered round in bliss? well, there's stuff we can market there too.... that's my only worry.

--
Screw you all! I'm off to the pub
Re:Is it voluntary? by Gandalfar · 2004-09-15 20:12 · Score: 1

Isn't that a cool thing? At least you won't have to see ads for things you don't like and annoy you in the first place.
Re:Is it voluntary? by Atrax · 2004-09-15 20:17 · Score: 3, Insightful

That's one argument I've heard advanced a lot, but I don't think it's necessarily a valid one. tighter targeting like that just increases the cost/benefit ratio of running a given campaign, right? More bang for their buck?

So it's cheaper, right? and what happens when the price goes down?

Demand (and volume) go up.

So the marketing may be more relevant, but there'd be a load more of it. The savings certainly wouldn't go to anything as crass as lowering the price of the product or (god forbid) improving it - that's not what marketing is for.

at least, that's one theory

--
Screw you all! I'm off to the pub
Re:Is it voluntary? by 10Ghz · 2004-09-15 22:08 · Score: 1

So, how is consumer harmed in this scenario? I mean, we get better targeted advertising, which is in turn cheaper. And consumers see ads for products and services they will actually be interested in. And the downside is..... what?

Or are you saying that the consumer is harmed because the company saves some money, but the price of the product does not go down? Are they required to lower their prices?

--
Lesbian Nazi Hookers Abducted by UFOs and Forced Into Weight Loss Programs - -all next week on Town Talk.
Re:Is it voluntary? by paedobear · 2004-09-15 22:25 · Score: 1

Hung around a lot in the little kids park? you likely have small children, so we can market kids stuff to you.
That or pass your details on to the police...
Re:Is it voluntary? by Bruchpilot · 2004-09-15 22:46 · Score: 2, Interesting

Think!
what kind of data have would you have to give and with which information would it be connected?
who would decide which advertisment is the right one for you?
where would the information be stored and for how long?
who would be in control of all of this and what would his objectives be?
Re:Is it voluntary? by D-Cypell · 2004-09-15 22:48 · Score: 1

You know, I have accepted that being a target of marketing is an evil that is part of the cost of living in a capitalist society. With this as a given, I would rather that I was offered products that I might actually be interested in.

This is why I am not particually hostile towards google ads...
Re:Is it voluntary? by Yer+Mom · 2004-09-15 23:08 · Score: 1

The scatter-bombers will still carry on bombarding you with crap. You'll just get extra ads, but these will be carefully targeted.

--
Never mind Spamassassin. When's Spammerassassin coming out?
Re:Is it voluntary? by 10Ghz · 2004-09-15 23:23 · Score: 2, Insightful

what kind of data have would you have to give and with which information would it be connected?

Why would I have to concern myself with that? Well, to amuse you: I propably wouldn't have to give any kind of data, it would be collected automatically. What data, and connected with what other data? Propably what I bought, when and where. If someone knows that I bought a pair of socks at the local supermarket, big deal.

who would decide which advertisment is the right one for you?

Irrelevant. At worst, I would get ads for products that do not interest me. And that's different from way things are right now.... How?

Or are you afraid that my advertising-needs will be decided by.... *gasp`* The Big Brother? Well, if He can give me better ads I get right now, go right ahead!

where would the information be stored and for how long?

As long as it's needed. I wont lose any sleep because of it.

who would be in control of all of this and what would his objectives be?

Yeah, what if Dr. Evil finds out that I rather eat at Burger King than Mickey D's? He could use that data for World Domination (tm)!

Seriously: if you are so concerned about this, pay everything with cash. Is someone forcing you to use those terrible traceable credit-cards?

--
Lesbian Nazi Hookers Abducted by UFOs and Forced Into Weight Loss Programs - -all next week on Town Talk.
Re:Is it voluntary? by Oligonicella · 2004-09-15 23:27 · Score: 1

If you're that paranoid, pay in cash. Jesus, can't the nutsos think at least two steps?
Re:Is it voluntary? by the+Luddite · 2004-09-15 23:45 · Score: 1

That's one argument I've heard advanced a lot, but I don't think it's necessarily a valid one. tighter targeting like that just increases the cost/benefit ratio of running a given campaign, right? More bang for their buck?

So it's cheaper, right? and what happens when the price goes down?

Demand (and volume) go up.
- snip -

You are assuming that the cost will go down. Lowering prices does not increase profits. Remember, people only focus on the immediate gain these days. Assuming that the demand will increase due to the lower price is too risky by most corporations standards. Lower invenstment cost, print the tag to show that the price was reduced. It is standard practive to double the 'initial' cost, then print the 'sale' price at the previous price level and call it a sale. Don't expect this saving to roll down to the consumer level.
Re:Is it voluntary? by rtphokie · 2004-09-15 23:51 · Score: 1

Let's say you go into the park, pay by credit card, wander round a bit and the system tracks you and your activities. Now if the company in question (lets say Disney) can link the ID to your CC number, and if they retain the data, then they'll be able to tightly market to you later based on what you did at the park.

Disney probably already does this with resort guests. They can track your entry to the parks, your room, what rides you get fast passes for as well as purchases made on the card issued to you when you arrive. It serves as room key, park ticket and credit card.

That's too much juicy data not to mine.
Re:Is it voluntary? by EDSdrone · 2004-09-16 00:30 · Score: 1

>Hung around a lot in the little kids park? Maybe you're a pervert. Marketing opportunities.
Re:Is it voluntary? by JustKidding · 2004-09-16 00:40 · Score: 1

Hung around a lot in the little kids park? you likely have small children, so we can market kids stuff to you.

Actually, they wouldn't need the RFID tags to find out you have small children, as they usually stand next to you when you pay (with your credit card). All they need to do is take a picture, and they would also know you gender, your kids gender, and their approximate age. They only real solution is not to use your credit card.

I don't think it'll be a good marketing tool. I can't think of any information they could collect that would be useful for targeting ads, but i do see the potential to evaluate the park; which rides are the most popular, where do people get lost in the park and how do people use the walkways, and thus find out where the signs or walkways need improvement, and about a billion other things, which don't invade your privacy and does give them information to improve the service.
Re:Is it voluntary? by DigitalRover · 2004-09-16 00:51 · Score: 1

God forbid they try to tailor their advertising efforts to make them more specific and thus more efficient! Oh, just think of the unspeakable horror of waking up one day and seeing an advertisement in your mailbox for - *gasp* - something you might actually want to buy. When will this horrible oppression end!?
Re:Is it voluntary? by Sein · 2004-09-16 01:00 · Score: 1

Marketing can be done in an Evil or Semi-Evil way though.

The Evil way is to look at Customer A.Geek and Product_Class_Non_Geek_Appealing and try to make a geekAppeal wrapper class for the product based on detailed datamining on your personal profile.

The other way is to look at Customer A.Geek and ask "so - what do you want?", and then spend the time trying to find more instances of the A.Geek class and to not bother Customer B.Geek with your product since it's a waste of their time and your money to offer them something they don't want.

In other words, the first method depends on pushing products on people across as wide a marketing channel as possible, hoping to overcome buyer resistance and make the sale regardless.

The second method depends on narrowing your marketing channel until it only reaches the class of people who'd have an interest in your product.
Unfortunately, both kinds of marketing depends on collecting "enough" data on your customer - and you usually can't tell the difference between the end results of either process, since you're gonna wind up being offered something that appears to be useful in either case.

But the first instance requires an intense profiling of prospective customers, whereas the second depends on .. umm, an intense profiling of your existing customers to identify similarities enough to gain a narrow enough marketing channel that you exclude everyone without a pre-existing interest in your product.

The first style is Evil because it requires practicioners to profile everyone - the second instance is only semi-evil as it depends on finding people similar to the profile you already have of your exisiting customer base.

Semi-evil, 'cause you do need to profile people outside your customer group to make sure they're not in your focus.

RFID-tagging people and using behavioural profiling on everyone is probably in the Evil class.

(Sometimes, I long for the simpler days when Marketing was a foreign language)
Re:Is it voluntary? by tsg · 2004-09-16 01:12 · Score: 1

You know, I have accepted that being a target of marketing is an evil that is part of the cost of living in a capitalist society. With this as a given, I would rather that I was offered products that I might actually be interested in.

Theoretically, I agree with this. But my concern is that they aren't going to use their knowledge of my environmentalist leanings to build a more environment friendly car. They're going to use their knowledge of my love of Star Trek to get Patrick Stewart to try to convince me to buy whatever it is they're selling.

This is why I am not particually hostile towards google ads...

Google ads are pretty unintrusive, obvious that they are ads, and have actually been useful more than once. But I believe this will be the exception rather than the rule.

--
People's desire to believe they are right is much stronger than their desire to be right.
Re:Is it voluntary? by outernet2 · 2004-09-16 01:43 · Score: 1

All i ever hear is people complaining about this kind of marketing. where's the real problem with Walt Disney World knowing where you were, and what you bought within the confines of their own property? cause they might market things to you based off of what you bought before? if you complain about this, you sound (to me) an awful lot like the people who don't like the target marketing system utilized by Gmail. come on folks.
Why do you hate marketing in the first place? too many useless emails/brochures/leaflets. well what if you were guaranteed to be INTERESTED in what those marketing materials had to offer? then instead of wasting their time and money, and your time and potential buying interest, they've got you reading something you may WANT to read, and they're more likely to make a sale. boosting the relevancy of marketing of any kind can never be a bad thing. even if they have to find out what i bought, or how i emailed my sister about my mom's birthday. because then maybe i was shown ads about places i could buy her birthday presents. sounds like a win/win to me.

--
This .sig is a .fig of your imagination
Re:Is it voluntary? by maxpublic · 2004-09-16 01:47 · Score: 1

eriously: if you are so concerned about this, pay everything with cash

I wonder how long you'll be able to do that.

A couple of years ago I walked into Radio Shack to by a $16 cable. Just a quick stop, I needed the cable pronto and my usual store didn't have any in stock.

I got the cable, went to the sales counter, and plopped it down along with a $20 bill. The salesperson started typing away on his cash register/computer, looked at my cable and my cash and asked "name and address?" I thought perhaps this boy had smoked a bit too much weed during his lunch break and had become confused, so I said "I'm paying with cash."

The salestwit gave me his best cold glare and said "I can see that. Your name and address, please."

And then it dawned on me that I'd heard that snide little limp-dicked moron ask the same question of every customer who went up to the sales counter, something I'd managed to tune out while I was hunting for my cable. Radio Shack was demanding my personal information in order to make a CASH purchase. Assholes.

So I leaned over the counter, looked this 19-year-old loser in the eye, and said "not in this lifetime, pal. Just give me my change - now!" Faced with a resistant customer the salesweasel folded and angrily handed me my $4, and I walked out of the store, cable in hand.

Haven't gone back to Radio Shack since then, for anything. Don't plan on it, either. But I do wonder how long it'll be before I have to give personal information to every store, even when making a cash purchase.

Max

--
My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
Re:Is it voluntary? by duggy_92127 · 2004-09-16 02:19 · Score: 1

Wow, you types really amaze me.
...then they'll be able to tightly market to you later based on what you did at the park.

I'm completely serious when I say this... but so what? THAT'S what you're afraid of? Disney knowing that I have children, so they'll market small child things to me? Explain to me how that's a bad thing.
Honestly, I read a lot of comments on /., and I really do think that you people think that as soon as ANY COMPANY has ANY DATA on you AT ALL, then the world ends in some "privacy" armageddon. Oh no! They can MARKET TO YOU more effectively! Run for the hills!
I despise commercials, on TV and radio. I don't listen to the radio because of them, and I watch nothing on TV that's not through my TiVo. But that's because I'm not in the market for cars or alcohol or hip sodas. What if all commercials on my TV were for electronic gadgets, though? Or Sci-Fi movies? I'D ACTUALLY WATCH THEM.
So, seriously. Can you come up with anything more doom-and-gloom than "they can market to me more effectively" or "they'll know ANYTHING about me" that makes them tying your activities in the park to you, personally, a terrible thing? Anybody?
Doug
Re:Is it voluntary? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-16 03:09 · Score: 0

How does Disney exactly go about marketing this stuff anyway? All they should have is your name and CC number. Do CC vendors get more info in USA? Will Disney also get your address and phone number somehow? Where I live, I just tell my CC company that I want no direct marketing and it works fine.

I think at the heart of the issue is the lack of privacy laws in USA. Americans want as little government as possible, and that has left the door open for big corporations to take over the country. I know when I used to visit there, some (most?) stores asked for my driver's license whenever I used my CC or made an exchange or return. Again where I live, they'd get into trouble if they insisted on doing this.
Re:Is it voluntary? by Frank+T.+Lofaro+Jr. · 2004-09-16 04:08 · Score: 1

God forbid that of all the ads you get, more and more of them would be for stuff you actually want.

Ads are a fact of life. If I could have the ads that reach me be more targeted and more related to what I am interested in, I consider that a good thing.

A bad thing would be if people who spent time in bars had the health insurance premiums go up. Insurance, overzealous law enforcement and employers are the one's that can hurt us.

--
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
Re:Is it voluntary? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-16 04:22 · Score: 0

That or pass your details on to the police...

The only detials that they couldn't by other means, often just as easily, would be your activities at the park. Now other than activities which they would probably be involved anyway (pickpocketing, shoplifting, fights, etc...), what would the police find interesting about your visit to the park? Believe it or not most police forces are not staffed by pathological voyuers.
Re:Is it voluntary? by kieran · 2004-09-16 04:27 · Score: 1

Hung around a lot in the little kids park? you likely have small children, so we can market kids stuff to you. Sit in the bar all day while the rest of the party wandered round in bliss? well, there's stuff we can market there too.... that's my only worry.

I don't think the data is quite that useful, as tickets tend to be bought en masse, so they don't know *who* was in the bar, and they can see how many young kids you have at the gate anyhow!
Re:Is it voluntary? by TehSlugbug · 2004-09-16 06:46 · Score: 1

They don't seem to do that any more here, although I did give the Rat Shack my address a few years ago without really thinking about it. They did send me a flyer a few days later. I imagine that it's still in their database, but Radio Shack's a lot more trustworthy than Microsoft or AOL. ;)
Re:Is it voluntary? by Atrax · 2004-09-16 14:22 · Score: 1

> Will Disney also get your address and phone number somehow?

yup, if you shop online at a site owned by Disney (or a subsidiary, don't forget it's a BIG company), they'll have your delivery address. they'll probably ask for your phone number too, and they'll correlate that to your CC number.

or if you sign your ankle-biters up for a by-mail "kids' club", same thing. Or if you pre-order tickets.

Corporate entities have access to a stunning amount of information about you. If they choose to mine it, that is.

--
Screw you all! I'm off to the pub
Re:Is it voluntary? by Thomas+Shaddack · 2004-09-25 23:27 · Score: 1

The salestwit gave me his best cold glare and said "I can see that. Your name and address, please."
The hapless cashregisterman was most likely instructed by management to ask for the name/address, and reprimanded if he didn't have x% success rate (which, coupled with fatigue and a dead-end job, was the likely cause of the cold stare).
Just do the same people do online. Give him a nonexistent name, with a nonexistent street address.
This approach has several benefits. The cashier isn't harmed (no, if he could find another job, wouldn't he be there already?). You don't have to stress over the transaction. The corporation has a bogus entry in their database (also known as database poisoning), and is punished a little bit by having to waste money on an undeliverable leaflet. (As a further benefit, you can use the address of your advertiser-friendly politician.)

RFID responsible use by Xerxes2695 · 2004-09-15 19:56 · Score: 5, Insightful

RFID is IMO not inherently "evil". It is a tool, like a screwdriver. Now, a screwdriver can be used to turn screws, or it can be plunged into someone's head. RFID is fine with me, as long as:

1. I know it's being used
2. I'm not required to use it
3. I can turn it off

Re:RFID responsible use by Anonymous+Writer · 2004-09-15 22:43 · Score: 1

Now, a screwdriver can be used to turn screws, or it can be plunged into someone's head.

An RFID can be plunged into someone's head as well, I presume.
Re:RFID responsible use by dr_d_19 · 2004-09-16 00:01 · Score: 1

RFID is IMO not inherently "evil". It is a tool, like a screwdriver. Now, a screwdriver can be used to turn screws, or it can be plunged into someone's head. RFID is fine with me, as long as:

1. I know it's being used
2. I'm not required to use it
3. I can turn it off

That sounds like ye olde cookie-discussions which ended up with us having to enable cookies anyway to get somewhere.

As with most technology which can cut costs for companys (imagine replacing the guy behind the counter with a computer and a RFID-scanner) there's no way out of this. RFID is here to stay, and it will be linked to your personal data.

Does it really matter? When you used some kind of bonus card in a store, you can be sure that store will register exactly what you purchase and when, and have that data relate to your personal data. It happens all the time.

But of course we shouldn't give up. But we're barking up the newly planted pinetree when we really should be cutting down the oak.
Re:RFID responsible use by TheoMurpse · 2004-09-16 03:20 · Score: 1

well, carry around a small faraday cage and you don't have to worry about #3

now as far as being required to use it, since this is a theme park (ok this is important, everyone pay attention) YOU AREN"T REQUIRED TO USE IT!!! if you don't want to, then DON"T GO TO THE EFFING PARK. Xerxes, it's not you making me mad, it's this 50% of posts saying
OMGz0r5!! MAI RIGHTS R b3in6 t4k3n aw4y!!11!oneone!
when you step onto someone's private property, you must abide by their rules. Don't like it? Then boycott, complain and DON"T GO TO THEIR PRIVATE PROPERTY.

i'd link to a whole buncha case studies on this, but i'm on slower-than-ass internet right now...
Re:RFID responsible use by danila · 2004-09-16 03:33 · Score: 1

What you don't seem to realise is that there is less and less public property in the US. And when everything is private, you don't have freedoms, because private companies can take them away. At the very least, you have to buy food - and when the only place where you can do it - the Walmart, starts requiring a RFID (or a mind-control device) implantation, you will either succumb to it or starve.

--
Future Wiki -- If you don't think about the future, you cannot have one.
Re:RFID responsible use by Frank+T.+Lofaro+Jr. · 2004-09-16 04:13 · Score: 1

For your example with the screw driver, people might get confused over which is the good use and which is the bad use. Let me clarify (from an RIAA/MPAA perspective):

Turning screws is evil. It can be used to circumvent content protection measures and DRM.

Plunging it into someone's head is good. Such actions reduce piracy, since almost any victim would have illegally used or copied precious intellectual property. IP is more precious than life, just ask the pharmaceutical companies who use patents to make it illegal to provide reasonable cost AIDS treatments to poor countries.

--
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!

And they wonder.. by Motherfucking+Shit · 2004-09-15 20:03 · Score: 1, Funny

News.com is reporting that a theme park in Florida is tagging all members of your group when you enter.

And they wonder why the hurricane trifecta (or perhaps a fourth round, too) is hitting the Sunshine State... ;)

--
"BSD: Free as in speech. Linux: Free as in beer. Windows 10: Free as in herpes." --Man On Pink Corner in #52607549.

This sounds like an exciting new tool! by Ghostgate · 2004-09-15 20:03 · Score: 5, Insightful

... for stalkers.

Re:This sounds like an exciting new tool! by Atrax · 2004-09-15 20:07 · Score: 1

> ... for stalkers

ooh, there's a good point. It significantly lowers the skill level required to be an active stalker. Hooray for technology, making everyone's life easier, even the creepier ones among us.

now, where are my trenchcoat and dark glasses?

--
Screw you all! I'm off to the pub
Re:This sounds like an exciting new tool! by Arclight17 · 2004-09-15 20:23 · Score: 1

Especially considering that they can't even encrypt anything that happens to be on the chips... Kiss that credit card security goodbye... all it'd take is someone with a scanner to walk by you, and get it. You'd never know. Which is why this won't go any further than theme parks and other localized ares. Breate, America, It'll be Ok

--
All men can fly, but sadly, only in one direction--Down.
Re:This sounds like an exciting new tool! by Atrax · 2004-09-15 20:25 · Score: 1

Errr.... where does it say anything about your CC number being stored on the chip?

--
Screw you all! I'm off to the pub
Re:This sounds like an exciting new tool! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-15 22:05 · Score: 1, Funny

Someone? You're new here, aren't you?
Re:This sounds like an exciting new tool! by Oligonicella · 2004-09-15 23:30 · Score: 1

Yeah, right. A stalker sneaks up on you and attaches an RFID tag. You don't even notice it's done, so you go on with your merry little life.

Shit people, at least try to think.

Just pretend you don't notice, and after the stalker leaves, put the tag on a stray dog.

This crap was insightful?
Re:This sounds like an exciting new tool! by gcaseye6677 · 2004-09-16 16:08 · Score: 1

It's far more insightful than any of the crap you've ever posted, ya douche! People like you are the reason for the Foes list.

Re:hmmm by zac_wight · 2004-09-15 20:08 · Score: 0

it would also depend on the spacing on the monitors... if the other person doesn't know you are looking for them... and are just looking around then if the monitors are spaced too far apart they would be worthless... but if there are too many of them it would remove some of the magic of the park. Plus how long does it take to get a location? if it take a little while than it might not be accurite. So what would the use be of it then? unless you could communicate with the people/person you are looking for... I think that would be more worthwhile than just location checking.. or even if your tag told you someone was looking for you that would be better...

Hurricanes by Capt'n+Hector · 2004-09-15 20:11 · Score: 2, Funny

Admission: $50
Lunch: $20
Knowing your party landed in Alabama: priceless.

--
Quid festinatio swallonis est aetherfuga inonusti?
Africus aut Europaeus?

Re:hmmm by Zeal17 · 2004-09-15 20:11 · Score: 2, Funny

Hopefully they have enough monitors around...nothing like waiting in a 20min line to find out that your party is in the same line, 50 people behind you.

--

"If it sucks without butter, it still sucks with butter, only creamier." - AC

in the workplace by fishmonkey · 2004-09-15 20:12 · Score: 4, Insightful

I wonder when workplaces will start using rfid in security badges to monitor start and finish times, lunch breaks, toilet breaks etc..

--
generic

Re:in the workplace by WegianWarrior · 2004-09-15 20:47 · Score: 4, Insightful

Son't you mean "when workplaces did start using RFID..."?
Some places have already done so in Europe - to make sure the empolyees don't "forget" to punch out when they leave for lunch, or even worse (at least from the employees point of view) forget to punch back in when they return.

Raises questions? Sure it does - how can you be sure they don't monitor restbreaks and whatnot as well. Makes life simpler? Sure it does - as long as you remember your card.

--
Everything in the world is controlled by a small, evil group to which, unfortunately, no one you know belongs.
Re:in the workplace by Mycroft999 · 2004-09-15 23:36 · Score: 1

My response to this would be as it has been to the threat to get a time clock in places where I've worked.

GOOD! Do it as soon as possible! Then they'll be forced to pay myself and everyone else for the time we actually work.
Re:in the workplace by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-16 03:29 · Score: 0

Most supervisors don't need RFIDs to know who's lazy, they have eyes and ears, they can observe, word gets around... Basically, there are two types of employers: the strict ones and the relaxed ones. The strict ones already have a high turnover rate and they have internal police to keep everybody in check, RFIDs will just replace this internal Gestapo. The relaxed ones couldn't care less, they know they gain no benefit by anally following every movement of every employee, so they let it go.
Re:in the workplace by tkohler · 2004-09-16 04:14 · Score: 1

Most company badges have RFID in them already. You are "tracked" when you use it to unlock the door. The range is just shorter, like 6 inches.
Re:in the workplace by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-16 04:56 · Score: 0

At two different places where I work RFID is used for security badges. For both it has been for several years. You have to scan your badge to get past any door as well as on entrance and exit. It's actually very common in this area to use RFID security. Works well, no problems. Can't complain. Just have to make sure I don't scan the wrong badge at one as their security teams respond to unauthorized access attempts.
Re:in the workplace by Rob+the+Bold · 2004-09-16 05:19 · Score: 1

Some friends of mine have 'em in key fobs required for office access. I'm pretty sure they track all their coming and going if for no other reason than "because we can".

--
I am not a crackpot.

Wannadocity.com? by Motherfucking+Shit · 2004-09-15 20:14 · Score: 1, Funny

If they're any relation to wanadoo.[fr|nl], they probably have the least secure theme park in the world, with the rowdiest guests on the planet. They probably need RFID to keep track of what their customers are doing.

Just sayin'.. :)

--
"BSD: Free as in speech. Linux: Free as in beer. Windows 10: Free as in herpes." --Man On Pink Corner in #52607549.

Before you post: Hands up who has kids! by fantomas · 2004-09-15 20:19 · Score: 4, Interesting

I'd like to see posters in this discussion indicate if they have kids or not. I'm going to guess that those who post "not over my dead body/evil CIA tracking device/civil liberties being eroded by govt." are the single adults who've never lost a small child they are responsible for in a large, crowded public place.

Re:Before you post: Hands up who has kids! by Stevyn · 2004-09-15 21:46 · Score: 1

This is exactly what I was thinking when I read the article. If I have to wear some tag to help protect thousands of kids from getting lost or being kidnapped then by all means. This is about child safety, not tracking people to help the gestapo.

My only concern is if a child is abducted, the abductor can just remove the wristband and throw the police off for a while and buy some time.
Re:Before you post: Hands up who has kids! by cascadingstylesheet · 2004-09-15 22:03 · Score: 2, Interesting

I'd like to see posters in this discussion indicate if they have kids or not. I'm going to guess that those who post "not over my dead body/evil CIA tracking device/civil liberties being eroded by govt." are the single adults who've never lost a small child they are responsible for in a large, crowded public place.

Damn straight. If I ever take my eyes off my kids in public, it's by accident. I don't see why a tag that assists me in doing the exact same thing is evil.
Re:Before you post: Hands up who has kids! by Katravax · 2004-09-15 22:31 · Score: 1

I have a kid, and no way would I let them tag her. Just because some people don't watch or stay with their kids is no reason to track everyone. Incrementally they have wedged those tags into all kinds of places, and they're not going to stop with something that's all friendly-sounding like "finding lost kids."
Re:Before you post: Hands up who has kids! by Jah-Wren+Ryel · 2004-09-15 23:30 · Score: 2, Insightful

This is exactly what I was thinking when I read the article. If I have to wear some tag to help protect thousands of kids from getting lost or being kidnapped then by all means. This is about child safety, not tracking people to help the gestapo.

Yeah! Who cares about freedom, saving the life of even just one child trumps all of that stupid stuff. Who needs freedom anyway when our children are being slaughtered in theme parks all across this great country, home of the free, land of the brave?

My only concern is if a child is abducted, the abductor can just remove the wristband and throw the police off for a while and buy some time.

Yeah! If it makes abducting even just one child easier then that trumps all that stupid freedom stuff!

--
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
Re:Before you post: Hands up who has kids! by rastos1 · 2004-09-16 00:42 · Score: 1

If the parents are the only ones that get the tracking data, then I don't see the problem either. On the other hand, you may just give your kids a mobile.
Re:Before you post: Hands up who has kids! by maxpublic · 2004-09-16 01:28 · Score: 1

I can track my child on my own, thanks. I don't need the help of corporations, government, or especially well-meaning but clueless gits like some of the folks here to help me. If I want help, I'll ask for it; otherwise, mind your own business.

Max

--
My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
Re:Before you post: Hands up who has kids! by bkr1_2k · 2004-09-16 01:42 · Score: 1

You'd be wrong in at least one instance. I don't like this for many reasons, and I have a kid. Then again, I don't take my daughter to theme parks that often because they are generally a waste of money due to lines and dissapointing rides/activities/food etc.

Sure it can be used to find lost children, so in that instance it will be good. I've never "lost" my daughter but one of her friends disappeared under my care for a couple minutes because she walked off. Scariest thing I've ever dealt with (how do you tell someone else you lost their child?) Luckily we found her fairly quickly. So there can be good sides to this, but like another poster suggested, make it optional (and cost extra) to tag your party. Sell it as a feature, not a bug.

I don't generally pay by credit card for those types of things so there is no other way to track me (easily). I'm not really paranoid, but why give any more easy access to my data? These days it's hard enough to prevent identity theft and spam, and targeted marketing (which may be helpful but annoys me anyway) so why woud I willingly make it that much easier. I don't generally accept cookies on my computer (in answer to another person's comments) so why would I do it on my body?

bkr

--
"Growing old is inevitable; growing up is optional."
Re:Before you post: Hands up who has kids! by Overzeetop · 2004-09-16 02:24 · Score: 1

*hand goes up*

Actually, a static RFID location would be a snap to find, and if there's no child there, you can start yelling and screaming.

It is a bit freaky, but you can bet your life that if I were offered the option of putting an RFID wristband on my daughter (who is only two right now) in a themepark with big crowds and any possiblity of getting lost I'd sign us up.

Think of it this way - would you make your young child wear a life preserver all the time? Would you make your young child wear a life preserver in a small boat? Easy choice. My daughter doesn't go outside the fenced yard without a life preserver when we're at the lake. I may watch her closely, but kids will get into trouble faster than you can imagine.

Don't worry, I'd have been on the side of the paranoid libertarians if I didn't have a child.

--
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
Re:Before you post: Hands up who has kids! by ahmusch · 2004-09-16 02:50 · Score: 1

Everyone seems to be missing one aspect with regard to the prevention of abduction.... If every member of your group's RFID tags are associated, then no one should be able to remove a child from the facility without said associated RFID tag. And for the tin-foil hat squad -- if you think giving the purveyor of the park better data with regard to hot and cold-spot without having to take action is tantamount to 1984, well, you may wish to consider that not every slope is that slippery and that there is a gigantic difference in what a private company can do on its property and what the government can mandate.
Re:Before you post: Hands up who has kids! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-16 04:13 · Score: 0

Yeah! Who cares about freedom, saving the life of even just one child trumps all of that stupid stuff. Who needs freedom anyway when our children are being slaughtered in theme parks all across this great country, home of the free, land of the brave?

He's a clue for you, they are talking about a themepark, private property were people volunterially pay for the privilege of enjoying the park. Access to privately run amusement parks is not a constitutional issue. No one forces anyone to go in there, if you don't like RFID tags don't go there.

If this was being done by a county, town, or city, to its citizens you would have a point. But since it isn't, you don't.
Re:Before you post: Hands up who has kids! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-16 06:37 · Score: 0

I agree. Everyone I know who has children would sell their soul to the devil to be able to live like they did before children. The goal is never the children, the goal is a life as unburdened by the little ones as possible.

Does it really surprise anyone that a lazy dog owner thinks a bark activated shock collar is a good idea?
Re:Before you post: Hands up who has kids! by Thuktun · 2004-09-16 08:22 · Score: 1

I have a kid, and no way would I let them tag her.

Children get distracted, forget that they're supposed to stay next to you, wander around corners, and don't answer when you call them. It's a terrible feeling, looking around, knowing they were JUST THERE but now seem to have vanished.

Have you experienced that before?
Re:Before you post: Hands up who has kids! by Jah-Wren+Ryel · 2004-09-16 11:18 · Score: 1

He's a clue for you, they are talking about a themepark, private property were people volunterially pay for the privilege of enjoying the park. Access to privately run amusement parks is not a constitutional issue. No one forces anyone to go in there, if you don't like RFID tags don't go there.

If this was being done by a county, town, or city, to its citizens you would have a point. But since it isn't, you don't.

HeRE's a clue for you: I didn't say ANYTHING about the constitution nor the government in the post you responded to. Megalocorps like Disney are powerful enough to be a significant detrimant to personal freedoms without involving the government at all.

But, since you mentioned it, when the government is so easily swayed to align with the interests of such megalocorps anyway, at what point does a corporate policy start to become a government policy?

I say that by exerting undue influence over our country's governance, the megalocorps are begging to be placed at least partially under the jurisdiction of the constitution. After all, if you are going to mix your business with politics, isn't it fair that politics then be mixed with your business? A little reciprocation to keep things in balance.

--
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
Re:Before you post: Hands up who has kids! by theonetruekeebler · 2004-09-20 23:17 · Score: 1

Who cares about freedom, saving the life of even just one child trumps all of that stupid stuff.
What freedom are you talking about, exactly? You're not wandering around in downtown Publicville, here---you're on private property. When you entered said property, you agreed to abide by the terms and conditions set forth by the property owners---just like you agree to do every time you enter somebody's house. They are offering you a service here, and a damned convenient one, and you didn't RTFA, did you?

--
This is not my sandwich.
Re:Before you post: Hands up who has kids! by Jah-Wren+Ryel · 2004-09-21 14:11 · Score: 1

-you're on private property. When you entered said property, you agreed to abide by the terms and conditions set forth by the property owners

Just like there is no such right to freedom of speech on private property. Eh?

--
When information is power, privacy is freedom.

Boy, are you cheerful... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-15 20:20 · Score: 0

Next I bet you'll be telling me that Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy don't exist...

Uhh, they don't. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-15 20:22 · Score: 0

http://www.snopes.com/cokelore/santa.asp

and

http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/tooth.ht ml

Re:Uhh, they don't. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-15 20:45 · Score: 0

What?? Noo!! Who the hell has been taking my teeth then, dammit??
Re:Uhh, they don't. by Patrik_AKA_RedX · 2004-09-15 21:12 · Score: 1

Seeing the number of Anonymous Cowards on /. I'dd say they've been using your teeth to clone you...

If THIS is not open to abuse, then what is?! by D4C5CE · 2004-09-15 20:26 · Score: 0, Troll

Can the park individually track where you are? probably, but it's their right to do so - you've voluntarily entered their private property after all, and paid for the privilege. Can they track your preferences within the park? probably.

Next time you enter my private property, remind me that by doing so you have also become my private property - as by your reasoning, you will thus have been reduced to serfdom, and indeed even have to pay for that "privilege"... ;-/

So what's next - nanoprobe injections and assimilation chambers at the gates of entertainment sites?! :-(((

Re:If THIS is not open to abuse, then what is?! by 10Ghz · 2004-09-15 21:59 · Score: 2, Insightful

Huh? How exactly does this technology turn the visitors of the park in to "serfs"? How does it make them property of the park?

if you hate the idea so much, the solution is simple: Don't go to the frigging park!

--
Lesbian Nazi Hookers Abducted by UFOs and Forced Into Weight Loss Programs - -all next week on Town Talk.
Re:If THIS is not open to abuse, then what is?! by NeoSkandranon · 2004-09-16 00:44 · Score: 1

And if you have something on your property (ie killer rides or other cool things) worth being a serf for maybe i'll agree to that

Othewise I'll LEAVE. which is what you're free to do at a theme park if you dont like the RFID idea.

--
If you can't see the value in jet powered ants you should turn in your nerd card. - Dunbal (464142)
Re:If THIS is not open to abuse, then what is?! by TheoMurpse · 2004-09-16 03:09 · Score: 1

i tell you what, grandparent is damn right, and you're damn wrong...

this has nothing to do with becoming a theme park's private property...it has everything to do with you having to abide by their rules while you're on their private property...if you won't follow their rules, then you aren't allowed in!

if i want you to wear a green shirt when you come to my house, you'd better, or you won't be allowed in!

this is not making you my property, it is disallowing you entrance to my property which you have no right to enter unless GIVEN PERMISSION.

remember, theatres make you pay, and not bring cameras in; airlines require you check your knives and not bring them on board the plane...is this making you their property? NO. It's merely the rules private citizens have imposed on visitors to their private property.
Re:If THIS is not open to abuse, then what is?! by D4C5CE · 2004-09-16 07:35 · Score: 1

How exactly does this technology turn the visitors of the park in to "serfs"? How does it make them property of the park?
Did I say literally? Then read my parent post again: It's all about analogy and an allusion (as always, those who don't get it mod it as troll), and we all should know the answer if someone asked what putting an RFID on a living being rather compares to:
a way of treating customers
or
a way of treating cattle?

Imagine the fun you could have .... by dustpuppy · 2004-09-15 20:27 · Score: 4, Funny

Get everyone to take off their tag and attach it to the roller coaster cars ... then sit back and watch as park officials panic when they realise that there are 578 people riding around and around.

Or ... as you take a journey through a ride, take off you tag and through it as far as you can into the diaroma ... and watch as park officials try and hunt down the lost kid

Or ... flush a tag down the toilet and then say your kid is lost ... and watch then chase the 'kid' as it 'travels' around the park

Re:Imagine the fun you could have .... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-15 20:37 · Score: 0

Or ... put the tags on the giant mouse! See the panic as security descends on the back stage area bathrooms, thinking that _their_ privacy is being violated.
Re:Imagine the fun you could have .... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-15 20:51 · Score: 0

Flush the tag down the toilet doesn't work, because metal pipes block RF signals. You need a more creative idea next time.
Re:Imagine the fun you could have .... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-15 20:59 · Score: 0

metal tubes for plumming is soooo old... it's plastics everywhere now.

But, the lack of underground detectors & the shielding effect from water will have the same results...
Re:Imagine the fun you could have .... by Patrik_AKA_RedX · 2004-09-15 21:19 · Score: 1

Better yet: if the park has wild animals (the dangerous kind of animal) trow the tag in the cage.
Re:Imagine the fun you could have .... by Jah-Wren+Ryel · 2004-09-15 23:38 · Score: 1

Better yet: if the park has wild animals (the dangerous kind of animal) throw the tag in the cage.

If you've paid cash, now they won't even be able to find you to bust you for fucking with the system either since you've just discarded your RFID. Make sure everybody in your party does it at about the same time, else they will find you by tracking your girlfriend.

--
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
Re:Imagine the fun you could have .... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-16 05:44 · Score: 0

Then get you ass spaked by your parents for being a dipshit.
Re:Imagine the fun you could have .... by Kehvarl · 2004-09-16 11:26 · Score: 1

By tracking your what?

Ski passes by tree_frog · 2004-09-15 20:33 · Score: 4, Insightful

Most of these have RFI tags in them. Seems like a good idea to me, for fairly ovious reasons.

Regards,

treefrog

Re:Ski passes by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-15 21:11 · Score: 0

Me, I prefer the GPS locator beacon. Especially on diamond runs in Utah.
Re:Ski passes by tree_frog · 2004-09-15 21:36 · Score: 2, Interesting

Fair. As I ski off-piste a lot I just go for my trusty Ortovox (Avalanche blipper), shovel and probe. But I have to say that RFID ski passes are very useful as you don't have to get your pass out of your pocket to get on the lift.
I can also see them being very useful for the resort management to analyse patterns of movement on slopes. OK, a lot of it isn't rocket science, but I really hate resorts where all the runs descend into the beginners area - it just seems so unfair on those trying to learn (Are you listening Grand Serre Chevalier, hats off to Isolla, and some other smaller resorts which I don't want to mention because I don't want them full of slashdotters).
regards,
treefrog
Re:Ski passes by Zorilla · 2004-09-15 22:31 · Score: 1

Me, I prefer the GPS locator beacon. Especially on diamond runs in Utah.

But you wouldn't want the scout leader finding out where you are. That Holy Grail belongs in a museum!

--

It would be cool if it didn't suck.
Re:Ski passes by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-16 03:37 · Score: 0

OK, a lot of it isn't rocket science, but I really hate resorts where all the runs descend into the beginners area

Um, wouldn't you be able to observe this with the naked eye??? And how the fuck are you going to analyze patterns of movement on slopes? Are you going to install an RFID reader on every square foot? To what end? To totally automate management? All they need to do is go out and look and listen to people once in a while. Sheesh, you'd think everybody in USA has completely turned of their brains!
Re:Ski passes by tree_frog · 2004-09-16 04:41 · Score: 1

Nah, but every time someone uses a lift they need their RFID tagged pass, so you can get patterns of movement of how people move round the resort.

Of course, you are right that people should use their brains and eyes once in a while, but please remember taht this is management we are talking about!

regards,

treefrog
Re:Ski passes by tree_frog · 2004-09-16 04:44 · Score: 1

Oh, and I'm mainly talking about European resorts. But the US ones don't look much better!

Treefrog

And remember folks... by WegianWarrior · 2004-09-15 20:35 · Score: 2, Interesting

..if you don't like the idea of being tagged and tracked - well, don't go to that park that tag and track you. Problem solved.

Off course, if the US goverment (or any other evil organisation/entity of your choice) started doing this, allowing you to be "found in real time", you might have a reason to scream up about "civil liberties" and whatnot.. but as long as it's private company doing it on their own property you have nothing to say in the matter - except to vote with your dollars and feet. Besides, I like the idea to find the kids when it's time to leave - spendt way to much time tracking down a kid that didn't want to be found because he didn't want to leave one time.

--
Everything in the world is controlled by a small, evil group to which, unfortunately, no one you know belongs.

Re:And remember folks... by elpapacito · 2004-09-15 23:31 · Score: 1

That of course implies that you were warned in advance of the fact that you're being tracked and that the tracking method doesn't pose any safety hazard to you.

For instace I know it's unpratical but I could track you by spraying you with a radioactive agent..pretty much impossible to disable..or I could use a miniaturized cell phone sending realtime data about your location while disabling your pacemaker.

The point being, if you wanna interact with me on your property you have to insure my safety ..a blanket "warning: any imagineable, possible and unpossible danger is only your responsability" implies that I can, for instance, enter your property riding an M1A1 Abrams to insure my safety.
Re:And remember folks... by mongbot · 2004-09-15 23:34 · Score: 1

Bullshit. Just because a public space is privately owned does not mean the owners can do anything they like inside it, legally or morally speaking, or that we have to accept their actions as a fait accompli. If shop owners decide not to give service to blacks or Jews, damn right I will complain about it.

And we can complain about the private conduct of private organizations on their own property if we want to. Who died and made you the complaints police?
Re:And remember folks... by Politburo · 2004-09-16 02:13 · Score: 1

Thank You!

For a crowd that is against the establishment, it really surprises me how often the "They own it, they do what they want" argument is parrotted in these types of discussions.
Re:And remember folks... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-16 02:19 · Score: 0

They do own it and can do what they want...Of course, you are free to complain.
Re:And remember folks... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-16 02:38 · Score: 0

What happens when 'they' own everything? They own the jobs, they own the land, they own the resources.. where are your freedoms now?
Re:And remember folks... by JustNiz · 2004-09-16 02:51 · Score: 1

We've already been there for some time now.
Re:And remember folks... by ArtStone · 2004-09-17 03:24 · Score: 1

... if the US goverment (or any other evil organisation/entity of your choice) started doing this, allowing you to be "found in real time", you might have a reason to scream up about "civil liberties" and whatnot
This tracking system exists and is called Wireless E911 - and the cell phone is directly tied to your name, social security number and home address. The cell provider pinpoints your location by using triangulation from multiple towers (or GPS on newer handsets).
This process goes on constantly, even if you aren't making a call - since the cell phone carrier needs to know where you are if someone calls you. This process is an inherent part of the cell phone technology, as it is how your phone call is handed off between cells as your move.

--
Final 2006 "Proof of Global Warming" US Hurricane Count -> 0

It's a wrist band! by PotatoHead · 2004-09-15 20:38 · Score: 4, Interesting

No big deal. Seems to me, one can just remove it, unless it is required for the attractions. (Still can break the tags, I guess.)

Theme parks are all about control anyway. The better ones have good control which results in a good experience. (That is what you pay for.) The poor ones have not thought everything out resulting in problems. (Which is what you don't pay for.)

It's a good feature. Pay cash if you don't want your prefs tracked to your identity.

--
Blogging because I can...

Great for trade shows by AnotherScratchMonkey · 2004-09-15 20:44 · Score: 1

How many times have you gotten separated from your buddies at a trade show? If you don't have their cell numbers, it's going to be a bitch to find them in the crowd. But if everyone can go to a kiosk and wave one's badge into a "group finder" app to register into a group, then you have only to go to the nearest kiosk to find everyone in your group.

Re:Great for trade shows by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-15 23:52 · Score: 0

How about you meet up at a rally point at a predefined time if you lost your buddies? Oh that's right slashdotters have no friends, they never go out with a group of people.

Lower your shields and surrender your souls! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-15 20:44 · Score: 0

Sure enough, some day soon in a theme park near you:

I am Mickey of Borg. Your data and monetary resources will be added to our own. From this day onward you will 'enjoy' us. Resistance is futile. Merchandising is profit. Taste is irrelevant.

To boldly sell like no Ferengi has sold before ...

Technology behind it... by DaneelGiskard · 2004-09-15 20:47 · Score: 1

What are they using? GPS? Antenna Triangulation?

Probably the last one.

I took a look at their website, but couldn't find any hints ...

Re:Technology behind it... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-15 21:21 · Score: 1

Or just lots and lots of RFID recievers located all around the park....
Re:Technology behind it... by maxpuppy · 2004-09-16 03:38 · Score: 1

RFID has a very limited range. It is sipmly not practical to actually track. Identification yes. Tracking no. FUD.
Re:Technology behind it... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-18 06:31 · Score: 0

If that is difficult to track the RFID tags "geographically", it is however possible to track them "in the time". I mean you can put a reader in a given place and then determine when your targeted tag is present. That's a kind of "traceability". There are several works on this topic i.e. traceability of the tags, for example for the banknotes, for the lirairies, etc.

There is an interesting webpage about RFID here:
http://www.rsasecurity.com/rsalabs/node.asp?id=211 5

And also here:
http://lasecwww.epfl.ch/~gavoine/rfid/

Hide and seek by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-15 21:11 · Score: 5, Interesting

This could lead to a cool modern day version of hide and seek. One person is the fugitive, gets hmmm 10 minutes to 'escape' then the others have to use the rfid to track the fugitive down.
Given that both the hunter and the hunted can see each others locations - but only when visiting the booths - then some interesting strategies could come out.
What would be really cool would be if you could tell the park you're doing this and they limit access to the location data to something like 1 minute access every 5 minutes to prevent 'booth squatting'!
Now I'd visit that park.

Re:Hide and seek by SmittyTheBold · 2004-09-17 06:41 · Score: 1

It's like a live-action Scotland Yard!

--
± 29 dB

looking for kids... by zxflash · 2004-09-15 21:30 · Score: 5, Insightful

as long as the technology can't be used by pervs to find kids that are alone... the technology is more of a threat than an aide for groups if it isn't implemented properly...

finding loopholes in this type of system isn't something that you can afford to do after it's been widely put into use.

--

All the torrents you could want.

Re:looking for kids... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-15 22:11 · Score: 0

as long as the technology can't be used by pervs to find kids that are alone...
Are you stupid? That's what intarwebs are for.
Re:looking for kids... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-16 05:42 · Score: 0

Yeah, I'm SURE that it prints out the age of the tag wearer at the kiosk. I bet you can search for tags based on age too!

Why do people come here and create nightmare situations WHERE NONE EXIST?!?!?!? What's the point in that?

Exactly where in the article or from posters experiences did you get the idea that this was even remotely possible?
Re:looking for kids... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-16 10:33 · Score: 0

Yeah, I'm SURE that it prints out the age of the tag wearer at the kiosk. I bet you can search for tags based on age too!

"Hi, I'd like tickets for 2 adults and 2 kids."

"Okay, sir, here are your blue adult wristbands and yellow child wristbands. At the Kiosk you and your wife will show up as blue and your kids as yellow."

"Can they go on any rides?"

"Yes, except the SuperCoaster, you have to be at least 13. That's an orange "Junior" wristband."

RFID on kids? by MoOsEb0y · 2004-09-15 21:51 · Score: 2, Insightful

Well, at least they aren't implanting it.

I for one... by Anonymous+Writer · 2004-09-15 22:29 · Score: 3, Funny

... welcome our new Theme Park Overlords.

Mexican Gov't requires RFID implants by Katravax · 2004-09-15 22:38 · Score: 1

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/july2004/1907 04mythofrfid.htm.

Search the web for it too. There's lots written about it. It's from a month and a half ago or so, so a lot of it has already fallen out of Google News, but it's still mentioned.

Note it's not just an ID card -- it's an implant. If your job required one, would you take it?

Why make it so sinister? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-15 22:51 · Score: 0

Really, it's not that it's "bullshit", it's just not their main push. It IS a system that is capable of give parents and youth group leaders greater peace of mind, therefore its a selling point, therefore the park would advertise such.

Honestly, do you expect them to include marketing strategy and information management as topics on their guest services page or general press release? I doubt that's what people who visit that site go there for; go read their quarterly report or some business article and I'm sure they'll be perfectly forthright in their intentions, where it fits the audience better.

Re:Why make it so sinister? by DrXym · 2004-09-15 23:08 · Score: 1

If it's not their "main push", why is it being touted when their "main push" isn't? If they are lying, then why is it wrong to raise questions about what their real motives might be? Why is it wrong to question the supposed benefits to the guest? That's all I'm saying - they're introducing RFID for a very suspect reason indeed.

As for peace of mind, I suggest that leaving your children unattended (and being encouraged to by the supposed benefits of the system) just because you can track them from afar is bullshit. Yes it might prevent some kids from being (momentarily) lost, but unattended kids are more likely to crack their heads open, or shoplift, or be beat up / be beaten up by other kids, or in the worst case even be molested or abducted.
Re:Why make it so sinister? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-15 23:24 · Score: 0

wow...you must have one hell of a hard time making friends.

Do you trust ANYone?
Re:Why make it so sinister? by Chess_the_cat · 2004-09-15 23:34 · Score: 1

Where in that article does it say the park advocates leaving your children unattended? All I read was that the system will help reunite you with your children if they are separated from you. You've gone off on a tangent of your own creation. You're out to lunch.

--
Support the First Amendment. Read at -1
Re:Why make it so sinister? by DrXym · 2004-09-16 00:01 · Score: 1

"With WannaFinder, each family/group entering Wannado City receives an electronic tracking bracelet linking all members in their party.
During their stay, guests can use WannaFinder kiosks throughout the park to locate members of their group in real-time. "

I'm sure the park doesn't advocate leaving children unattended, but it is a bleeding obvious consequence of the system. Just because I'm able to realise that and you are not, does not make me 'out to lunch'.
Re:Why make it so sinister? by Ashyukun · 2004-09-16 02:09 · Score: 2, Insightful

Actually, it's more a 'bleeding obvious consequence' of bad parenting than of the system. The system just has the potential to give the bad parents a false sense of security in neglecting keeping track of their children- there's nothing saying they would keep better track of them if they didn't know they could be found quickly with the RFID tags.
For larger families with older children that are old enough to reasonably be out on their own and where the parents (assuming there are two) will occasionally go different ways to indulge the differing interests of their children, I can see this as being a fairly useful 'enhancement' to the park. There were several times when my family (myself, 15-year-old brother, and parents) went off on our own and then took some time in meeting back up in spite of having arranged doing so earlier where something like this would have been useful- we could have checked and seen, "OK, Matt is still stuck in line at such-and-such ride, we can go wait for him where it lets out." Not saying it's completely good- the already mentioned possibilities of it being used by someone looking for a child to abduct do exist, but hopefully there would be other measures in place (like, decent security, and good parents) to prevent that.
Re:Why make it so sinister? by markhb · 2004-09-16 02:23 · Score: 1

I'm a season ticket holder for the local minor league baseball team. They have no RFID bracelets, yet the park swarms with unattended kids and foul balls hurtling through the air at dangerous speeds.

I go to the local mall on a Friday evening. I see swarms of unattended kids (most older than the 4-11 target age of Wannado City, but still not adults).

Stupidity and bad parenting are bleeding obvious consequences of the human condition. Given that they are unavoidable, I don't see any other problems with this system, especially as we're talking "on their property, in their theme park."

--
Save Maine's economy: write stuff down. All comments are exclusively my own, not my employer.
Re:Why make it so sinister? by AK+Marc · 2004-09-16 10:08 · Score: 2, Insightful

If they are lying, then why is it wrong to raise questions about what their real motives might be?

Because if they aren't lying, it is ok. If they are lying, then everything brought up is acceptable to me so far as well.

If your real objection is being lied to by corporations, your only recourse is to move to your own private island. I hate to be the one to break it to you, but corporations lie all the time, and it isn't illegal (and since corporations have no morals, isn't immoral or unethical either).

As for peace of mind, I suggest that leaving your children unattended (and being encouraged to by the supposed benefits of the system) just because you can track them from afar is bullshit.

Uh, I've not seen anything suggesting that is the reason for the system. I know that parents have fears of losing children. I also know that if you split with a group of adults, it is sometimes hard to meet back up. This helps with both. You don't leave your 3 yr old alone in Mickey Land becuse you can track him. You use the system if you are watching him, get distracted, lose track of him, and are upset because you've lost your child.

--
Learn to love Alaska

Not as bad..... by BobSutan · 2004-09-15 23:11 · Score: 3, Insightful

With the right controls, I'd welcome this. Whenever my family and friends head to Cedar Point, we always take 2-way radios to keep in touch (emergencies, when its time to eat, etc). They really help out though when you can't find someone at 4 PM where we're all supposed to be meeting for dinner. Well, with these little kiosks, we can leave the radios at home and have one less thing to worry about losing on a ride. Just pop onto a kiosk and see where they're at. Most likly they're STILL in line for (insert newest ride here) and that they're not going anywhere any time soon.

--
"On a scale from 1 to 10, people are stupid"

Probably not that big a deal by emorphien · 2004-09-15 23:11 · Score: 3, Interesting

Since the tags they'll use probably wont contain all the information on you they can possibly gather, this probably isn't that big a deal. They're probably just matched to a group set up in the park database when you enter so you can find each other. Sure they can track you too and provide you with ads and garbage for when they get a new rollercoaster if thats where you spend all your time, but one would like to think that's not the use.

People spend too much time being paranoid of what RFID can be used for in all the wrong ways. If they don't go overboard this isn't a bad idea, because we all hear about the person who had their kid wander off. Imagine if you could just go to a park booth and say hi I'm so and so and my kid just wandered off, they could tell you where the kid was instantly.

--

Presently here, but not there.

RFID not a problem by essence · 2004-09-15 23:21 · Score: 0

This is a case that shows RFID in itself is not a problem. The problem (that most RFID stories on /. show) is the use of RFID by the rulers, in this increasing authoritarian corporate system we have , to control The People.

Splash Country does this already by Scutter · 2004-09-15 23:55 · Score: 4, Informative

Dollywood's Splash Country in Tennessee does this. For a couple of bucks, you can tag your kid with a radio transponder and one or more of the parents. The tags are paired at rental time. At any kiosk throughout the park, you can hold your transponder up to the scanner and it will show you the location of all other matching transponders on a little video map, as well as the last time it was detected.

I found it *extremely* useful since I could let my daughter ride the waterslides without worrying about how to find her when it was time for lunch or time to go home. Likewise, she could find me quickly and easily if she needed to. I certainly didn't feel that my privacy was being invaded and I wasn't able to track any other users in the park.

Is there potential for abuse? Of course there is, but it's like any other tool. It can be used for good or evil. In this case, I feel there's no evil intent and it helps prevent lost kids.

--

"Tell me doctor, with all of your defenses, are there any provisions for an attack by killer bees?"

Re:Splash Country does this already by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-16 03:40 · Score: 0

... and I wasn't able to track any other users in the park.

Ah, but how hard did you try? Of course, the casual user won't be able to track others, just like the casual user can't crack your screen-saver password. But someone who really wants to, how hard would it be for them to hack into the system?
Re:Splash Country does this already by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-16 05:37 · Score: 0

Lets pretend just for a moment that someone found out how to make the system, tell him the location of any/all IDs in the park. Since none of the IDs are coupled with actual names, how the hell yould you know who it was that you were tracking? I mean you can open your eys and see where random people are in the park for gods sake!

More insane /. paranoia. It's GOOD to be paranoid, but you need to couple it with intelligence or you are just spinning your wheels, pacnicking about the sky falling every two articles.
Re:Splash Country does this already by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-16 10:39 · Score: 0

So what you're saying is that thanks to the transponder, you stopped keeping an eye on your child. So your child was wandering alone. If a "stranger" met her, and they didn't walk up to any RFID tracking booths, all you'd know is the last time she was at the water slide... hours ago.

The system is very handy for honest folks but it creates additional liabilities if any bad folks are about, because it gives you a false sense of security about being able to find your child so you're more likely to walk away out of sight/earshot.

Patent and licencing mudwrestling! by AndroidCat · 2004-09-16 00:13 · Score: 1

Nah, that's not delectation and delight.

Legal fight-fight-fight!

Now that's entertainment!

--
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.

Awesome! by tbase · 2004-09-16 00:25 · Score: 1

You know, I was just thinking, technology isn't doing nearly enough to relieve me of my parenting responsibilities! I wonder how long it will be before some lowlife goes there and snags an unattended kid in the "SafeTzone", cuts off the wristband and walks out with him/her? I smell a lawsuit. I just hope a lawsuit is the worst thing that happens.

--

666-607: 6th floor apartment of the beast

I Think We're All Bozos on This Bus by JazzHarper · 2004-09-16 00:34 · Score: 1

Have you ever listened to "I Think We're All Bozos on this Bus"? If not, consider it a missing piece of your cultural heritage. It's more relevant (and accurate) today than it was 25 years ago. In Firesign's world, theme park gets freaked out by YOU!

Sure, take away all the fun... by TopShelf · 2004-09-16 00:47 · Score: 1

Back in my day, my grandmother parked her self on a bench at the front of Disney World and my two brothers and I (13, 11, and myself 8) roamed the park on our own, checking back every hour or three. I guess that era of confidence and trust is gone forever....

--
Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more

Rollercoaster Tycoon... by Ratface · 2004-09-16 00:56 · Score: 1

This could make for the best ever game of Rollercoaster Tycoon. All the little Sims walking about could be real people. All they need now is fsome system that measures the visitor's mood and keeps track of exactly how much the spend at any given store in the park.

--

A little planning goes a long way...

You can run, but you can't hide! by Blitzenn · 2004-09-16 01:10 · Score: 2

Now I can beat the crap out of little Jimmy anytime I want too! He can't hide from me anymore. I wonder how well that RFID tag will work after I stuff him in his locker?

Don't worry the above is satire. But it is likely to be used for that sooner or later. The problem with restricting the privacy of the lawabiding people to stop bad things from happening is that the people who want to do the bad things don't give a crap. They will either find a way around it or find a way to use it against you. Meanwhile, you, as a law abiding citizens had more rights removed from you and lost more privacy. All to stop the bad people who are still going to do it to you anyways.

Don't get me wrong here. For kids and stuff, It could be a great tool. I don't think it will stop kidnapping at all whereas the tag can simply be removed, disabled or altered. If someone wants to defeat it, they are going to be able to. It's not going to stop crime. It can however be used for a number of things to help us from day to day. We just have to be aware of those that will try to use this to curtail our freedoms in the mean time.

Moo by metamatic · 2004-09-16 01:19 · Score: 0

Slashdot says the park is tagging everybody, but the article says it's issuing tags to everyone. So is the park really 'tagging' everyone as they enter? Like what happens to cows?

The cows are, like, politely told they can't enter the theme park.

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GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak

Another useless technological crutch... by bastardadmin · 2004-09-16 01:21 · Score: 2

Remember when you used to make fun of people with cell phones? When you actually had to plan social events and be on time? When you would arrange meeting places in case of seperation?
Guess that was too difficult...

This will lead to some embarissing moments. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-16 01:24 · Score: 0

Ok, were ready to go now. Lets just look at the closest display to see where my daughter is... Oh here she is. She's in THE MEN'S ROOM?!?

More Info by mistermund · 2004-09-16 01:49 · Score: 1

DALLAS and MESA, Ariz. (PRNewswire) - DALLAS and MESA, Ariz., Sept. 13 /PRNewswire/ -- Florida-based Wannado City(TM), the first indoor role-playing theme park for kids, is increasing children's safety throughout the 40 venues at its 140,000 square foot facility using SafeTzone's Real-Time Locating System. The technology, which combines passive and active radio frequency identification (RFID) tags and readers from Texas Instruments and RF Code, respectively, allows parents or other members of a group to identify the whereabouts of their family and friends at any time while inside the facility.

Wannado City, which held its grand opening on August 13, 2004 at the Sawgrass Mills Mall in Sunrise, Florida (near Fort Lauderdale), is a first-of- its-kind attraction in the United States. Designed to inspire children from ages 4 to 11, the indoor city allows kids to actively explore a world where they become doctors, dentists, firefighters, archaeologists, actors, television news reporters, chefs, judges, airplane pilots and a host of other professions. There is a small scale courtroom, circus, television studio, police station, bank, dance club, hospital, and even an airplane with a realistic flight simulator.

Included in the general admission fee, each visitor receives a WannaFinder(TM) plastic wristband, a hybrid wireless bracelet which combines a Texas Instruments 23mm passive, low frequency transponder and an RF Code Mantis(TM) series active RFID tag.

The WannaFinder wristband communicates information, including a person's location, via radio signals to a series of TI and RF Code readers and makes the information accessible through the many WannaFinder touch screen kiosks situated throughout the park. RF Code's TAVIS(TM) data management software collects and consolidates data from the active RFID tags, while SafeTzone's patented Real-Time Location Module draws associations among the passive and active data to identify and locate each member of a group. Groups can easily and securely access the real-time location of their members, on a map of the park, at any time of day in English or Spanish simply by scanning their WannaFinder wristbands at any kiosk. While the active tag communicates a person's location, the passive RF tag automatically identifies visitors as they approach the touch screen kiosks and scan their wristbands, linking them to onscreen icons marking the individual location of any member of their family or group within the park. The instant, real-time location of group members and amenities enables parents and guardians to know where their kids are, while at the same time empowering them to explore career roles with their young peers with unprecedented freedom and safety.

Wannado Entertainment, which plans to open new cities in the top 10 U.S. markets over the next several years, is the most recent company to incorporate the SafeTzone Location Services package into an entertainment park. Outdoor deployments of the SafeTzone solution include Paramount's Great America (Santa Clara, CA), Wild Rivers Water Park (Irvine, CA), Dollywood's Splash Country (Pigeon Forge, TN), Wet 'n Wild (Las Vegas, NV) and the soon to be opened Steamboat Springs Ski Resort (Steamboat Springs, CO).

For more information on TI's RFID technology solutions, please visit http://www.ti-rfid.com/ or call 1-888-937-6536 (North America) or 1-972-575-4364 (International). For more details regarding RF Code's data management software and active RFID solutions please visit http://www.rfcode.com/ or call 1-877-969-2828 (North America) or 1-480-325-4041 (International).

About Texas Instruments

Texas Instruments is the world's largest integrated manufacturer of radio frequency identification (RFID) transponders and reader systems. Capitalizing on its competencies in high-volume semiconductor manufacturing and microelectronics packaging, TI is a visionary leader and at the forefront

More JC Jokes by mistermund · 2004-09-16 01:56 · Score: 1

More spiels and jokes:
http://www.themedattraction.com/jungle.htm

Famous Pranks
http://www.csua.berkeley.edu/~yoda/disneyland/jpra nks.htm

# Dropping a rubber spider on guests' heads as they disembark and pass under the boathouse bridge (OK, I gotta take credit for this one... I Imagineered this prank in the Summer of '95. My most notable victim... Carrie Fisher of Star Wars fame)

# Fishing from the "catwalk" (center dock). The fishing line usually has a rubber fish or snake attached to it, waiting for a cast member to pull it up in a moment of glee with the entire boathouse audience watching.... one time somebody had put a broken "stroller parking" sign out on the catwalk with a stroller on it.

# Making jars of "baby piranha" to display in the dispatch office (Yep, I Imagineered this one, too. -- We'd bring in an aquarium fish net and scoop up those little minnows that live in the river, labeling the jar "baby piranha")

# Playing chess with a fellow cast member in the "luggage storage" part of the queue building.

# Playing dead on the infirmary bed upstairs in the queue building.

# re-routing the queue so the line goes in a circle, but never to the loading area (only works when there is only a few people in line)

Roller Coaster Tycoon 2K4! by neochronist · 2004-09-16 02:06 · Score: 1

Now if they can just get these things to read your emotions. Those park operators could just sit back and play a little game mapping the real park to a virtual world.

Just hope they don't integrate any "Black and White" technology.. I'd hate to go to Cedar Point and have the hand of god actually lift me up and drop me in the water because I can't find the bathrooms.. lol

Actually, I have to say amusement parks are one place I don't really mind being tracked. If they can do anything to make my visit smoother with less lines, by all means, do!

give it a break by pavon · 2004-09-16 04:49 · Score: 2, Insightful

Since the YRO section was originally created it has been posting stories about "technology and your rights". Every story I have read fits that qualification. Every story I have read has met the "news for nerds, stuff that matters" qualification. Every story that I have read has generated interesting discussion among readers of this site who do care about these issues.

So basically what your entire complaint boils down to is the pedantic fact that they could have chosen a better title than YRO. Give it a rest - if you're not interested don't read it. Until then, I will continue to mod down any posts complaining about "relevence" of a story. I don't care whether the poster is intentionally karma-whoring, trolling, or just being off-topic, these posts increase the signal/noise ratio for those who are interested in the story, and thus should be moderated down.

Capture and release. by Macdude · 2004-09-16 04:52 · Score: 1

I don't have a problem with it as long as they are using capture and release.

--
"Grab them by the pussy" -- President of the United States of America

This really sux1 by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-16 05:06 · Score: 0

Now my girlfriend wants to implant an RFID chip in my penis, along with 3 extra inches! :*(

*syrrys was here*

Wow by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-16 05:07 · Score: 0

This is the first good, non privacy threatening use of RFID I've seen...

why bother with snagging and walking away? by tuxette · 2004-09-16 05:18 · Score: 1

The lowlife scumball can molest your kid right "here and now" and walk away, without any tag to watch over him. And as the surveillors see that your kid is in the "SafeTzone," they're none the wiser as to what is happening and has happened.

--
People say I'm crazy, I got diamonds on the soles of my shoes...

I've seen this with Bluetooth by Rob+the+Bold · 2004-09-16 05:31 · Score: 1

Theoretically, parents can rent the child-tracker bracelets and use cell phones or kiosks to track and page the kids. Various companies (e.g.: http://www.blipsystems.com/) are developing this sort of thing, taking advantage of Bluetooth's limited range to quickly get a rough fix on someone's position in the covered area. I don't know if it's in practice anywhere . . .

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I am not a crackpot.

ya gotta wonder... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-16 05:35 · Score: 0

what kind of damned moron would choose the president based on whether they want to go to the moon or not.

Tag all my remotes! by crablouie · 2004-09-16 07:28 · Score: 1

That's the killer app for rfid!

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I think so, Brain. But where will we get a duck and a rubber hose at this time of night? --Pinky

Tracking Honeys by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-16 08:26 · Score: 0

Or a group of six teenage boys could always have five of them slip their bracelets into the contents of honeys. Then the sixth could see where the ladies went all day.
The only legitimate benefit of this (other than for those with bad parenting skills) is determining which rides are most popular at the moment, so as to ride the coasters with shorter lines.

Last time I went to a theme park by ross.w · 2004-09-16 14:46 · Score: 1

It was my car that got stolen. No RFID tag offered for that (not by the theme park anyway)

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If my call is important, why am I talking to a recording?

Protection from evil by urbaer · 2004-09-16 16:10 · Score: 1

I thought RFID tags were supposed to protect us from evil... strange evil creatures that try to eat you... Oh, no, sorry.... think I've gone mad.

Low Tech Option by russeljns · 2004-09-17 03:51 · Score: 1

Slashdot has previously reported about tagging kids with RFID in order to keep track of them."

How about just putting cow bells around their necks?

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This concludes our transmission to Oceania.

335 comments