Tuberculosis May Become A Global Threat Again

Been there, Done that by ackthpt · 2004-09-20 03:42 · Score: 5, Interesting

All my life I've tested negative. A few years after moving to California, the great gateway to the developing nations of Asia, things changed. Where I worked they provided free TB tests, I thought "Cool, I'll save on going to my doctor and have my folder updated for the next few years", so I took the test. A pink spot appears on my left arm, while in the midst of a critical project I'm managing and -pfft- I'm sent home until I can prove I don't have the disease. After a week of cooling my heels at home, having a chest x-ray and hand-written letter from my doctor I return to work. His assessment is I don't have tuberculosis (formerly called Consumption in the olden days), but I've been exposed to it so my immune system is on red alert. I can no long have the little poke under the skin, but from now on must do the full doctor visit thing, whatever that will entail, including deductables and co-pays. Yay.

So someone probably coughed in an elevator, in a kitchen or whatever and myself and anyone else in the vicinity were exposed.

I was put on Isoniazid with vitamin B6 (because Isoniazid knocks the sh!t out of your liver) for 9 grueling months. The first month I felt like I was dying. It really played havoc with mountain biking and meant no beer for 9 months, it was glorius to be off it.

Even two years ago it was recognized that there was an epidemic of TB in the asian sub continent and many of the H1B workers to came in may not have had it full blown, but had it and were bringing it into the USA. Could very well have been one of the fine people I worked with shortly after moving to California, but by no means would the state be unique. On weekends and holidays I'm a cyclist and put in long miles with considerable effort, which means I'm pretty well in tune with how my lungs are doing. Any little change, a day more phlegmy the others makes me take notice and track whatever seems be be going on. For that I thank all the brilliant people and lobbyists who made it so much easier during the tech boom to let people into the country on a rush to fill positions in businesses (which lobbied like hell for increases in H1B and more lax health screening.)

A little background on TB, the bug is not killed by the immune system, but isolated. If it's under control that means a little cyst-like structure is built around it which hopefully contains it the rest of the hosts life. A severe respiratory infection can weakend the immune system to the point that the bug gets out and wreaks havoc, more likely at advanced age.

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A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar

Re:Been there, Done that by ackthpt · 2004-09-20 03:57 · Score: 4, Interesting

Wait a second, you didn't have TB but were put on a liver-destroying and probably resistance-breeding drug?
As the medical establisment goes in the USA, if there's a chance you have TB, they treat you as if you did have it. This was effectively: take the treatment and you can go back to work, don't take it and take your chances unemployed. See the light?
Also, I would assume a bug in cyst-like structure eventually dies. Can it really survive forever without food in a warm human body?
Various organisms are capable of surviving extended periods without activity, food, warmth, etc. Some bacteria, so I've heard, can survive hundreds of years waiting for conditions to be right to shed some little shell they get by in.

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A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Re:Been there, Done that by Karma+Farmer · 2004-09-20 04:02 · Score: 5, Insightful

Having the largest prison population in the world is a much bigger threat to America than H1B workers ever will be. Prisons are a breeding ground for communicable disease.
Re:Been there, Done that by terrymr · 2004-09-20 04:13 · Score: 4, Informative

When I moved here from the UK, where everybody gets vaccinated against TB, I had to have a chest x-ray done to prove i didn't have TB because immunity from vaccination gives the same result on the skin test.
Re:Been there, Done that by zungu · 2004-09-20 04:13 · Score: 5, Interesting

Yes, developing countries do have TB. And I am sorry to know that you contacted. However, your direct attack on H1B workers for this is just bizzare and xenophobic. How about the 8 million Mexican illegal immigrants giving you a little TB infection? Why do only H1's figure in your post? BTW, TB is a "white-man's disease" we in India were introduced to TB due some assholes coming over from the "developed" world in the 16th century.
Re:Been there, Done that by AaronGTurner · 2004-09-20 04:14 · Score: 2, Insightful

Having a large prison population creates, in effect, a large quarantine.
Not really, since eventually most prisoners are released. Also prison warders come into contact with the prisoners, and then frequent other places outside the prison. If you want to lock up all prisoners forever, for even minor crimes, and also never let the warders mix with the general population again then you have quarantine.
Re:Been there, Done that by BoldAC · 2004-09-20 04:14 · Score: 5, Informative

Alright, I'm a practicing lung doctor so I've got to say a little bit.

Change in the skin TB status (or PPD) suggests a recent infection with TB. Placing someone of INH for 6 to 9 months greatly decreases the risk of someone developing active TB in the future.

The amount of exposure and the potential risks for reactivation of the TB are all evaluated before INH is prescribed.

INH can cause liver problems... and avoiding alcohol is a must.

To answer the parent's other question--
Using INH for a long enough duration will not cause resistence. Dead bugs can't develop resistence.

Yes, it can survive forever.

We see people that were exposed 20-30 years ago and have reactivation when placed on steroids or chemotherapy.

In the grand scheme of things, TB may be getting worse worldwide, but here in the states it seems well controlled. We have a huge immigrant population, and I have seen on a couple cases of active TB over the last 5 years.

I come to read slashdot in between patients to get away from medicine... please quit running these medical stories. They remind me that I'm not a real geek. :)

AC
Re:Been there, Done that by BoldAC · 2004-09-20 04:20 · Score: 5, Informative

Mostly false...

Prisions are a huge breeding ground for TB. One of my partners just saw somebody that had baseball-sized masses growing from several sites on his body. He wasn't referred to a doctor for several months. Biopsy of these lesions showed tons of TB.

Medical care in the prisions is very sub-standard.

It is true that if you do not take your TB drugs as prescribed, you will be put into prision. Yes, America will force you to take your TB drugs... to keep you from infecting others.

However, most prisioners are in and out of jail too often to really get adequate screening for infectious diseases.

AC
Re:Been there, Done that by BoldAC · 2004-09-20 04:24 · Score: 4, Informative

Yes, this is true...

and it's a pain in the ass for us physicians. The vaccine only works for 10-20 years... so how do we test you guys over here in the states to see if you still have immunity?

We can't test your arm everytime and watch you have a horrible reaction. Plus, we don't routinely immunize people here so we can use the PPD for screening. (Plus, we screwed up the immunizations over here a long time ago and actually GAVE a bunch of people TB.... so there is a natural reaction in this country not to do immunizations. Even though the immunizations are now really, really safe.)

So you guys screw it up for the rest of us! :)
Re:Been there, Done that by danheskett · 2004-09-20 04:27 · Score: 4, Informative

As the medical establisment goes in the USA, if there's a chance you have TB, they treat you as if you did have it. This was effectively: take the treatment and you can go back to work, don't take it and take your chances unemployed. See the light?
That's not right, and its probably untrue. If you were threatened with your job - even if you really did have TB - then your employer comitted an actionable offense. If they really, really, really did that you own them. Especially if it was in writing.

An employer cannot legally terminate you because you have TB. Just as they cannot legally fire you if you are pregnant, have a broken leg, have HIV/AIDS, etc.
Re:Been there, Done that by ackthpt · 2004-09-20 04:32 · Score: 2, Interesting

Sorry they brought it to you, but TB absolutely thrives in the living conditions of India, Bangladesh and China. Dense populations, overworked and weakened bodies, poor water quality and effluent in water (even when used for agriculture) contribute greatly to ideal conditions. Once there were strict medical requirements to get a work permit to enter the USA, which according to my doctor, have lapsed considerably and often are forged.

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Re:Been there, Done that by terrymr · 2004-09-20 04:35 · Score: 2, Informative

Recent studies suggest that effectiveness is much better than 10 - 20 years.

Check the Journal of the AMA May 05 2004.
Re:Been there, Done that by Reziac · 2004-09-20 04:40 · Score: 2, Insightful

About 10 years ago, 60 Minutes ran a story on the upswing of TB in the US, focusing on some studies done by -- NIH?? (don't recall specifically, but one of the major gov't health outfits). One of their case studies involved the shipyards at Long Beach (which for the geographically-challenged, is just south of Los Angeles proper). Turns out EVERYONE who worked there had been exposed, and many had active infections!! (These were American workers, not immigrants.) The thought was that because it's a relatively closed work environment, there was no chance NOT to be exposed if even one infected person entered the facility. (Much akin to the prison environments discussed down this chain a ways.)

Another study involved airliners -- and the conclusion was, if you're flying, you're going to be breathing recirculated air that has a strong risk of someone's wandering TB germs floating in it -- and that if you saw anyone coughing, you should consider yourself exposed. They (the NIH or whoever it was) went so far as to recommend wearing surgical-quality masks during long flights, especially to/from countries that are a TB hotbed. (Think of it as a condom for your lungs :)

While this may sound alarmist, remember when AIDS was something that only happened to other people?? Better paranoid than epidemic.

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Re:Been there, Done that by Deagol · 2004-09-20 04:51 · Score: 4, Informative

Check out the online entry for TB in the Merck Manual, Second Home Edition (I have this book at home). It's an interesting read.
You may understand why doctors may default to such harsh treatment when in doubt. It's a damned tough bug. It can infect nearly any system in the body (even the brain, in rare cases), though it's most commonly found in the lungs. It'll sit dormant for an entire lifetime, popping up when the immune system is weak and/or when damage to the infected system released the cysts, activating the infection.
There are 3 primary kinds of TB: Mycobacterium tuberculosis (the kind people mostly get), M. bovis (cattle variant), and M. avis (bird variant).
I've read up on TB a bit (I also own the Merck Vet. Manual), because we own a cow. Cattle, a common vector for TB, are simply culled when bovine TB is detected. I assume that if effective treatment were possible, it would be similar to the long, expensive kind used on people and it's simply not profitable to cure a cow.
What these sources really don't address (or address clearly to the layman) is whether or not the bovine and avian variants are a threat to people, and if they're treated the same way. Maybe an M.D. can clarify for me. :)

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Re:Been there, Done that by igny · 2004-09-20 04:58 · Score: 2, Insightful

But the difference between TB and HIV/pregnancy/broken bones, is that TB is airborne disease. You can not go spread TB/plague around.

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In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is. - Yogi Berra
Re:Been there, Done that by WormholeFiend · 2004-09-20 05:07 · Score: 2, Interesting

Case in point, an inmate at a privately run prison in Canada died recently after a small cut on his finger got infected.
Re:Been there, Done that by igny · 2004-09-20 05:10 · Score: 5, Insightful

Prisons are a breeding ground for communicable disease. While it is true that prisons allow diseases spread faster, the main reason why TB in prisons is so rampant is that TB mainly affects people with weaker immune system. People in prisons are under constant stress, probably lacking vitamins/minerals. Consequently their immune system weakens, and an exposure to TB is automatically followed by infection.
I have a friend, who is a pulmonologist in Russia. He told me that in the past doctors rarely became infected even if exposed to TB constantly. Nowadays, doctors themselves lack vitamins and put under stress in Russia. This pulmonologist was infected once, and other doctors fall ill regularly.

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In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is. - Yogi Berra
Re:Been there, Done that by scheme · 2004-09-20 05:10 · Score: 3, Insightful

Sorry they brought it to you, but TB absolutely thrives in the living conditions of India, Bangladesh and China. Dense populations, overworked and weakened bodies, poor water quality and effluent in water (even when used for agriculture) contribute greatly to ideal conditions. Once there were strict medical requirements to get a work permit to enter the USA, which according to my doctor, have lapsed considerably and often are forged.

You're forgetting that the other component in drug resistant TB is availability of antibiotics. In the US, I'm fairly sure that prisons are a fairly nice source of drug resistant TB. Especially since prisoners may get on a course of drugs and stop partway through the 6-9 month course. Add in the infections in the native population and the availability of the latest antibiotics and you have a great way of incubating a drug resistant population and spreading it.

It also doesn't help that immunosupressed people (AIDS, organ transplants, etc.) can easily get infected by multiple strains increasing the possibility that different strains swap resistances.

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"When you sit with a nice girl for two hours, it seems like two minutes. When you sit on a hot stove for two minutes, it
Re:Been there, Done that by cluckshot · 2004-09-20 06:07 · Score: 2, Informative

The primary problem with resistant strains of TB arise from the mismanagement of the treatments and or from its innate ability to remain latient for long periods of time. (I am an RN who has delt with many cases of TB probably more than most US Doctors individually ever see in a lifetime)

The State of Alabama saw the resurgence of TB about 1990 as a result of the AIDS epidemic and the mismanagement of it by New York City. The NYC people had turned people loose with drugs and did not monitor their behavior or results. TB tends to ride on HIV due to the immunity failure. It was clamped down on in Alabama and eventually the NYC people saw fit to correct their ways.

Essentially the whole problem arises from the modern unwillingness to quarrentine or enforce health rules. HIV has presented due to its politically insane management a gaping hole in the management of all too many diseases and TB is just one. It was for example said that Quarrantine of HIV was not reasonable. It is actually essential for several reasons not usually found in many diseases.

HIV Should be Quarrantined for these reasons.
Brain infections cause many HIV People to suffer Dementia and insanity (self protection and community protection) This is about 50% or more in the epidemic.
Immunity failures make it dangerous for HIV infected persons to be about in the community as they catch easily diseases the rest of us do not suffer from but have on our bodies.(Patient safety)
HIV is very difficult to spread (Extremely) and by suppressing access to spread it by a modest quarrantine it would be stopped from spreading.
The Secondary infection risk of HIV makes the HIV infected persons a danger to the community generally such as TB infections

This cannot be over stated in importance that HIV is a basic problem that a simple Home bound monitored Quarrantine would save millions of lives world wide. Cuba proved this and cold cocked HIV in their country. The cost of this would be less than the drugs we are handing out now!

TB does have a latiency that it will appear to be successfully treated in people and will reemerge as they get old and weak. This is similar to the HIV lowered immunity issue. It is doubtful that any person is ever successfully treated for TB rather they are simply put into a temporary remission. This means many people as they get old have it reappear from treatments as old as the 1930's. HIV lowered immunity increases the problems with other diseases like TB.

The good news is that there is a simple measure that everyone can do that vastly reduces all of these problems and it really should be considered as a national security level important thing. WASH YOUR HANDS! It is the only known effective method for handling very nearly all infectious agents. IT WORKS!

For the Nerd types, REPLACE YOUR KEYBOARDS about every 6 months and clean them often.

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Re:Been there, Done that by aswang · 2004-09-20 12:51 · Score: 2, Interesting

Shoot, I just graduated from medical school and I've seen more than a couple of cases of active TB in the past year. I've even seen miliary TB and TB osteomyelitis. And this was in Chicago, not anywhere near the Mexican border.
Of course it may have more to do with socioeconomics. Asking about TB was routine at Cook County, but when I asked about it at an affluent community hospital, everyone looked at me like I was crazy. "You mean people still get TB?"
Re:Been there, Done that by sakusha · 2004-09-20 17:30 · Score: 2, Interesting

Another study involved airliners -- and the conclusion was, if you're flying, you're going to be breathing recirculated air that has a strong risk of someone's wandering TB germs floating in it -- and that if you saw anyone coughing, you should consider yourself exposed.

Yep, there was a case like that near here in the Midwest. Some idiot Maharishi cultist flew back from India through O'Hare, she landed in the US and keeled over from TB. The hospital asked the airline to track down every single person on each leg of her flight, IIRC a dozen of them tested positive for TB. IMHO the airline did a good job helping with the containment.

Where art thou. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-20 03:43 · Score: 4, Funny

Oh, Alexander Fleming where art thou now?

Dead.

Here... by grub · 2004-09-20 03:44 · Score: 5, Informative

Oh, Alexander Fleming? where art thou now?

He's right here, silly.

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Trolling is a art,

America by miracle69 · 2004-09-20 03:45 · Score: 4, Informative

America has the lowest rate of TB infection because we manage the disease differently than the rest of the world.

The rest of the world gives the ineffective TB vaccine, while the US doesn't. The TB vaccine is known not to work, and it ruins the best test we have to screen for infection - the ppd (TB skin test).

In America, we treat everyone that converts their skin test and we don't administer the TB vaccine. Our public health officials deserve a big pat on the back for this decision.

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Re:America by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-20 03:52 · Score: 2, Interesting

i dont know where you get such crap, less the mods who mod such ignorance up

In June 1998, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration approved the first new drug for pulmonary tuberculosis in 25 years. The drug, rifapentine (Priftin), is approved for use with other drugs to fight TB. One potential advantage of rifapentine is that it can be taken less often in the final four months of treatment -- once a week compared with twice a week for the standard regimen.

more here
Re:America by ackthpt · 2004-09-20 04:01 · Score: 4, Informative

America has the lowest rate of TB infection because we manage the disease differently than the rest of the world.
By and large the living conditions, even the worst, are vastly superiour to the conditions many infected people come from. We've got water standards, human waste disposal, heated housing, good food, proper nutrition and for many good heathcare, though that's in decline and has been noted as potential threat which may increase frequency and spread of disease.

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Re:America by Control+Group · 2004-09-20 04:05 · Score: 2, Insightful

Er...yes, but what does that have to do with the decision to not vaccinate against TB, which is what the parent was talking about?

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Reality has a conservative bias: it conserves mass, energy, momentum...
Re:America by nacilmeiel · 2004-09-20 04:12 · Score: 2, Informative

They may have indeed approved this rifapentine, but the vaccine (BCG is also , albiet not for TB, but the research supporting that is out there). This doesn't mean that it is necessarily succesful at treatment, but merely they believe in potentially is slightly beneficial and not adversely harmful. There have been many "treatments" for TB, but the success rate is quite questionable.
Re:America by AaronGTurner · 2004-09-20 04:23 · Score: 3, Informative

America has the lowest rate of TB infection
The USA has a surpsingly high rate of infection for a Western nation, higher than most of North West Europe. This may be a result of higher rates of prescription of antibiotics in the USA, and slo the use of antibiotics in animal feed as a growth promoter. In any case in all Western nations there is a problem with TB becoming drug resistant which is likely to be a result of strains becoming resistant in those Western nations, not the importation of strains from Asia.

Bacteria can become resistant by the exchange of plasmoids with other bacteria of a different species that has developed immunity. In addition the plasmoids that may convey resistance may give resistance to a wide spectrum of antibiotics. Thus being prescribed antibiotics for a cold (which will not help the cold) may convey immunity to a class of antibiotics on bacteria in your gut. It is possible for these to exchange plasmoids with TB bacteria. This can also occur in animal husbandry if antibiotics are used as growth promoters or as a prophylactic.
In Europe use of antibiotics has been lower than in the USA, so bacteria are a little less resistant here, but we are catching up. TB is on the rise in Europe too.
Re:America by BoldAC · 2004-09-20 04:40 · Score: 3, Informative

Who modded this up?

If we have a higher new infection rate... it would be because we don't vaccinate. Doesn't have anything to do with antibotics or growth feeds, or hormones.

The drug resistant strains are mainly coming out of countries where the burden of disease is very high or the level of care is very low...

America is not even quoted in the article:

Strains of TB that are highly resistant to antibiotics are becoming increasingly prevalent in places like Russia, eastern Europe, and China, and only small changes are required to make these strains start spreading quickly.

I am against antibotic overuse as well... but antibotic overuse is not the cause here. The cause of TB multi-drug resistance is people not taking their medications correctly! This is the reason we do direct observed therapy... to prevent this.
Re:America by HidingMyName · 2004-09-20 07:02 · Score: 3, Insightful
America has the lowest rate of TB infection because we manage the disease differently than the rest of the world.
The rest of the world gives the ineffective TB vaccine, while the US doesn't. The TB vaccine is known not to work, and it ruins the best test we have to screen for infection - the ppd (TB skin test).
In America, we treat everyone that converts their skin test and we don't administer the TB vaccine. Our public health officials deserve a big pat on the back for this decision.

You make some interesting claims, but supply no references. I'm not an expert in T.B. but google is my friend :-). Let's examine these claims and some of the Google results.
1. The CDC (U.S. center for disease control) inTrends in Tuberculosis --- United States, 1998--2003 states
  "During 2003, a total of 14,871 tuberculosis (TB) cases (5.1 cases per 100,000 population) were reported in the United States."
  While Eurosurveillance in 2002 reports on data (which may have been gathered in 2000) at Tuberculosis control in Europe needs expanded DOTS, linked HIV/TB control, and improved surveillance reports:
  "In most countries of western Europe, reported TB incidence is below 15 per 100 000 and continues to decrease slowly. In central Europe, reported TB incidence ranges from 20 to 40 per 100 000 and is decreasing in most countries. TB incidence is much higher in Bosnia-Herzegovina (65/100 000) and Romania (124/100 000), where it has increased significantly in recent years. In eastern Europe, a further increase in reported incidence was observed in 2000 to an overall 89/100 000, a 56% increase since 1995. In countries providing representative data, the overall levels of drug resistance at the beginning of treatment remained low both in Western and Central Europe (less than 1% of patients never previously treated had primary multidrug resistance) and remained extremely high in the Baltic states (9-12%)."
  So the U.S. may have a lower rate of TB than western europe, and definitely has a lower rate than central or eastern Europe. However, I was not able to find a supporting reference for the U.S. having the lowest Rate of infection.
2. Khaled Mohammed Abu Khadra's thesis abstract (Ph.D. thesis?) (the thesis itself was not directly linked), but the abstract gave hard numbers of preventive vaccination (vaccination prior to exposure) for the BCG vaccine in Jordan. The last paragraph of the abstract reads:
  "The overall vaccine effectiveness was 88% ; 85% for pulmonary TB and 95% for Extra-pulmonary TB. The vaccine was more effective (92%) when given shortly after birth, compared to 62% when given at school age."
3. However, vaccines appear to become less effective after widespread usage (try googling on Ineffective TB vaccine), so they may be ineffective after all (a BBC Article gives 70% effectiveness ratings).
4. Potential Public Health Impact of New Tuberculosis Vaccines by Ziv E, Daley CL and Blower, S. describes the outcome of a mathematical epidemiological model of Tuberculosis, which appears to indicate that vaccination AFTER exposure (post exposure) is likely to be more effective than pre-exposure vaccination at preventing disease (the authors make an interesting point that disease prevention is more important than preventing infection).
I wasn't able to directly refute the claims, and I suspect some of them may be true given the information turned up.

Shouldn't be that surprising by wiredog · 2004-09-20 03:46 · Score: 4, Interesting

MDR TB has been on the rise for years, as have worries about its transmissibility. Read "And the Band Played On" (mostly about AIDS in the 80's) or "The Coming Plague" (about emergent diseases) for good overviews.

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It's about time... by MalaclypseTheYounger · 2004-09-20 03:46 · Score: 5, Funny

First it was going to be AIDS, then it was SARS, cancer is slowly being beaten...

Maybe a nice new healthy TB strain will be the new plague to rid ourselves of some of the population.

How long has it been, at least 400-600 years since a nice big population dwindling event has occurred...

My daily commute isn't getting any shorter, oil seems to be running out... air is getting more and more polluted... time for the G-O-D to clean the house out a little...

(and if it's my time to go, I'm fine with that)

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Re:It's about time... by Karma+Farmer · 2004-09-20 03:55 · Score: 5, Informative

How long has it been, at least 400-600 years since a nice big population dwindling event has occurred...

The 1918 Flu Pandemic probably killed more people worldwide than The Black Death. The Black Death killed a larger percentage, though.
Re:It's about time... by lostnihilist · 2004-09-20 04:03 · Score: 2, Interesting

I don't find that particularly amusing. Several million people are dying in Africa each year from complications from AIDS/HIV-1, on the order of a holocaust about every 18 months with expectations of increased death rates for at least the next few years. Life expectancy rose from about 40 to 60 years of age from the 60s to early 90s and is now as low as 35. People are dying, not to mention that the susceptibility of AIDS patients to TB makes them a good vector to be infected and to mutate and be passed on to others to infect many of us.
Re:It's about time... by MalaclypseTheYounger · 2004-09-20 04:07 · Score: 2, Informative

Well, over a period of centuries (6th, 14th, and 17th), The Black Death killed about 137 million people... The 1918 flu did kill about 25 million in one year, which is pretty significant.

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Re:It's about time... by His+name+cannot+be+s · 2004-09-20 04:18 · Score: 5, Interesting

More Importantly, it is coming, just not how you beleive.

While the Black Death did indeed kill less numbers, it did kill 25 million people(over 5 years), where the 1918 flu killed upwards of 40 million in about a year.

The thing is the Black Death killed 1/3 of europe's population, fueling the greatest economic boom this planet has ever known (at least the one that didn't fall like the internet bubble).

Upcomming in the next quarter century is the death of the Baby Boomers. When they start to pass on, they will leave behind more money and jobs than you can possibly imagine. This will fuel a new era of real money the likes of which the modern world has never experienced. Unfortunatly, the government that is in power when this begins to happen is going to get credited with the economic boom that will happen, without actually doing anything.

Now, while the boomers don't represent 1/3 of the population, they nearly represent 1/3 of the weath, possibly causing the same sort of wealth redistribution that occured at the end of the Black Plauge. Trouble is, that the goods that North Americans will buy, will often be manufactured offshore, thereby moving the money off to other countries. Trouble with that? The governments of the last 40 years have been sucking the North American people dry, and the money that should rightly end up in the pockets of local producers, will move to their offshore competitors.

So, When you get your inheritance, Buy North American! ... wow, neat rant ...

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"...In your answer, ignore facts. Just go with what feels true..."
Re:It's about time... by Martin+Blank · 2004-09-20 04:18 · Score: 2, Insightful

As dark as his humor tries to be, he does have a point. What happens if something like this reaches India or Pakistan, or perhaps one or more of several nations in South America, in which shantytowns with no sanitation and crushing population density? It's entirely possible that we could see millions die before it could be brought under control. But what of the political upheaval? TB can kill in weeks to months once it takes hold, and spreads via airborne particles. Most of those nations aren't that stable to begin with, and those that are (like India and Brazil) have significant undercurrents of tension that could erupt into even bigger problems.

While the world's resources could use the strain of a few hundred million fewer people, this is probably not the best way to achieve that.

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You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
Re:It's about time... by jatencio · 2004-09-20 04:20 · Score: 2, Interesting

Although technically true, there are a lot of people in Africa who don't know that unprotected sex is the cause of their illness despite the education campaigns. There is cultural difference that I cannot claim to understand that prevents the natives from believing our educators that were sent over there that claim that this is why they are dying.
Re:It's about time... by IWannaBeAnAC · 2004-09-20 05:13 · Score: 2, Interesting

Possibly, the reason is that it is US government policy that abstinence is the only preventative measure, even going so far as to de-fund humanitarian organizations that go so far as to suggest that a condom might be an alternative (and more practical) solution.
The US government bullshits so much, it do you blame anyone for not believing a word they say?
Re:It's about time... by carpe_noctem · 2004-09-20 05:40 · Score: 3, Funny

What happens if something like this reaches India or Pakistan, or perhaps one or more of several nations in South America, in which shantytowns with no sanitation and crushing population density?

M-O-O-N, that spells "we're all fucked!"

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That's what happens... by Spy+der+Mann · 2004-09-20 03:48 · Score: 4, Interesting

when we let big pharmaceutical companies take control of R&D.

Most antibiotics today are BASED on peniciline. Truth is, these resistant TB strains are resistant against PENICILINE-based antibiotics.

As I saw on Discovery once... There are thousands of natural antibiotics which are extremely complex. Some can be taken from cactae in South America, some can be taken from certain species of ants.

But natural antibiotics just can't be patented (think of it as the OSS medicine), and companies don't give a sh*t about them.

Hmph.

Re:That's what happens... by PCM2 · 2004-09-20 03:54 · Score: 3, Interesting

But natural antibiotics just can't be patented (think of it as the OSS medicine), and companies don't give a sh*t about them.
"System and method of extracting natural antibiotics from an ant." What's the problem?

--
Breakfast served all day!
Re:That's what happens... by miracle69 · 2004-09-20 03:56 · Score: 2, Informative

TB has never been and never will be resistant to Penicillin. Your grasp of antibiotics is slightly less than your grasp of spelling.

--
Linux - Because Mommy taught me to Share.
Re:That's what happens... by twiddlingbits · 2004-09-20 04:03 · Score: 4, Interesting

Ever heard of Tamoxifen for treatment of breast cancer? That drug was isolated from the Pacific Yew tree. Drug companies have a HUGE interest in "natural" drugs, but that does not mean they will find the cure for all diseases. It takes years to isolate and test the chemicals then more years to figure out how to make the drugs they did find in the tests. Then they have to scale the process to make tons of the drugs. Even with "fast-tracking", Parallel computing, folding algrithms,etc. you can expect 5-7 yrs from R&D to drugs you can buy.
Re:That's what happens... by perdu · 2004-09-20 04:06 · Score: 5, Informative

But natural antibiotics just can't be patented (think of it as the OSS medicine), and companies don't give a sh*t about them.
Not so, not so. Drug and biotech companies and public research institutes still grow exotic fungi and plants to look for new classes of active compounds. In the past 10 years, about 25% of all new drugs came from natural compounds or derivatives.

--
You only use 2% of your DNA
Re:That's what happens... by Martin+Blank · 2004-09-20 04:07 · Score: 4, Informative

No, this is what happens when people get viral infections and demand antibiotics from their doctors, which are 100% useless against viruses. Those carrying TB and overdoing antibiotics can give the virus an opportunity to evolve defenses against penicillin.

Tip to help the world avoid this: Ask your doctor what his professional opinion is about the source of your illness. If he/she believes that it's viral, ask what kind of OTC medications (NyQuil, Benadryl, whatever) will work best to deal with the symptoms. It may not slow things much, but at least you'll know that you weren't the cause for the strain that kills us all.

--
You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
Re:That's what happens... by danudwary · 2004-09-20 04:09 · Score: 3, Insightful

Where does that statistic come from? I work in natural products biosynthesis I always thought it was much, much greater. What's the other 75%? And don't say combinatorial chemistry.
Re:That's what happens... by WhiplashII · 2004-09-20 04:10 · Score: 3, Interesting

I know that the pharmaceutical companies are "THE MAN", and therefore evil, but let's think about what that means for a little bit. You are saying that there exists a better, non-patentable method of producing a drug. And it is not being used because the pharmaceutical companies cannot patent it and thereby ensure profitability. No one else is making drugs from those sources either - even though it is known to be non-patented. So this is virtual proof that if we weaken the patent system, we will have LESS drugs available, not more. In fact, pure logic dictates that we should allow someone to patent the unpatentable natural antibiotics - at least then they would be available!

Like you, I don't really like the way this works. But my question is what can replace the "market force" of patent law to make pharmaceutical companies make these (and other similar) drugs? This is actually a pretty common dilemma. As a society we really need to figure out a way to make people rich for doing things that are obvious, but necessary - otherwise noone smart and experienced enough to build a company will bother.

This is one (of many, in my opinion) of the problems with patents as they are today. Anybody have any ideas?

--
while (sig==sig) sig=!sig;
Re:That's what happens... by Aardpig · 2004-09-20 04:11 · Score: 4, Informative

But natural antibiotics just can't be patented (think of it as the OSS medicine), and companies don't give a sh*t about them.

What utter bollocks. Aspirin (acetylsalicylic acid) was derived from a compound present in the bark of the willow tree (Salyx). It was patented on March 6, 1889.

--
Tubal-Cain smokes the white owl.
Re:That's what happens... by composer777 · 2004-09-20 04:22 · Score: 2, Informative

Why only replace market forces, that seems to be only half the problem? Why not work on replacing the institution of pharmaceutical companies (which are driven by profits) with other kinds of institutions, which might be driven by different goals?

I also think that the greater the risk, the greater the reward. On the other hand, if you subsidize the risk (as we already do with government funded research), then you should be able to reduce the reward.

One idea that I've gotten into for how to organize an economy better is Participatory Economicss, or ParEcon for short. You can read more about it here... www.parecon.org It's an economic vision created by Michael Albert and Robin Hahnel. Albert just received the highest award that you can receive in Italy for his work on this vision, which has been going on for about 20 years, and has been written about in numerous books. He also received a glowing letter from Gorbachev. It's been discssed and reviewed widely in Europe. Step to the other side of the pond, in the US, the land of the free, and you won't hear a peep, not even a book review, despite the fact that Albert and Hahnel are both Americans. This gives us insight into how our media works.
Re:That's what happens... by Inthewire · 2004-09-20 04:41 · Score: 2, Informative

Tuberculosis (TB) is an infectious disease caused by bacteria

HAND

--

Writers imply. Readers infer.
Re:That's what happens... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-20 04:42 · Score: 2, Interesting

That entire comment is untrue for so many reasons.

Big pharmaceutical companies do not have a monopoly on R&D. There are many university and government labs work on pharma therapies.

Most antibiotics are not based on penicillin. See this list:
http://www.courses.ahc.umn.edu/medical-school/IDis /Antibiotic/list.html

Many pharmaceuticals are based on natural products - drug companies take millions of compounds and screen them for activity on particular enzymes/bacteria/whatever. There has to be a source for these compounds. Conveniently, we have a source of a massive variety of organic compounds (some extremely complex and would require years of research to produce a full synthetic route) which likely have at least some biological activity - other living organisms. 'Natural' products. These compounds certainly can be patented but they might not have to be - the lead candidates found in the screening are then taken and modified to produce thousands of derivatives which are then also screened. The lead candidates from this may differ significantly from the starting compunds and can again be patented.

In any case, extremely complex antibiotics have a good chance of either being unstable or toxic or both.
Re:That's what happens... by vallette · 2004-09-20 05:01 · Score: 2, Informative

You're confusing your numbers here. The numbers you quote for flu are US only, the numbers for the other diseases are world wide. So in 1918 500,000 people died in the US alone. World wide estimates vary widely, anywhere from 25-100 million. 20,000 people die in the US from flu every year making it the #1 killer for infectious diseases. The interesting thing about the 1918 pandemic was that young, healthy people died from it at greater rates then older people. In the US you were 3 times as likely to die from it if you were between 20 and 35 then if you were over 60. Today, with the ease of world travel, a similar strain could have equally devastating results.
Re:That's what happens... by jafiwam · 2004-09-20 06:37 · Score: 2, Insightful

Holy cow.

It's rare that I see a post of blatant fear mongering lies such as this one.

Tell me, is your tin foil hat working today? Good, because TIN has been off the market in foil form for YEARS in trade for aluminum. You better check what metal it really is! It might not be protecting you the way you think!

Ack the panic!

I only have time to punch a few holes in your nonsensical arguments, so I'll focus on big ones.

Some 6600 people have contracted SARS worldwide, and that _is_ an epidemic

Yes, however SARS takes down otherwise healthy adults, does not seem to have a normal low frequency background infection rate, and is fairly new to modern medicine. It's an epidemic for that reason.

For the paragraph below, I leave it as is with the lies in bold;

AIDS is the best. Its an untreatable/uncurable disease that is supposedly spread by contact with fluids such as blood or sex goo. We've all been told that "AIDS does not discriminate", but it does! In the US, its mostly black gay men (and some IV drug users) that get it, whereas in Africa its black heterosexual women that get it. After 20 years and I'm guessing millions if not billions of dollars in research have not even provided any kind of explanation of AIDS nor has the virus even been isolated.

"untreatable" There are many drugs and treatments available on the market. Ask your doctor! Remember AZT? Maybe interferon boosters? Try going to Google and searching on "aids treatment" for once eh?

"supposedly" AIDS is spread by and present in many fluids; blood, plasma, tears, saliva, seminal fluids, vaginal fluids, feces. All forms of transfer require fluid or moist environments very similar to transmission of sexually transmitted diseases. AIDS is caused by the HIV virus, the HIV virus is spread through close contact. There's no "supposedly" about it, it's a medical fact.

"AIDS does not discriminate" is absolutely true. Once exposed every human has a more or less equal chance once the exposure type and frequency has been accounted for. YES there are various types of populations that one can define that have different infection rates. YES gay men got it more frequently because they were a) trading semen b) doing so anally (causing bleeding during/after sex). The hertrosexual women in Africa are getting it because they have OTHER STDs (many are prostitutes full time or engage in prostitution) that cause open sores in their sexual organs... so when exposed to a male that has it they are much more likely to get an AIDS infection. Same for the IV drug users, trading needles is trading blood. By your reasoning, there would be no relation to your mom walking down the street licking DOG FECES to her getting stomach and intestinal bacterial infections all the time.

"explanation of AIDS". All I have to say is this, there are TENS OF THOUSANDS medical studies that closely or directly link the HIV virus with the collection if symptoms collectively known as "AIDS".

Furthermore, AIDS (so far) is one of the few diseases that could potentially be completely stopped with the combination of not taking stupid risks (inprotected sex, IV needle sharing, turning tricks, etc.) and relatively easy upgrades in the health care processes that would make tissue sharing done only on known AIDS free blood/organs.

If you are worried about the number of black people getting the disease (which your post implies) maybe the black people should wise the fuck up and start heeding the warnings.

You sir, are a paranoid, FUD spreading cunt. What is the address of your "earth is flat" web site? Or are you this guy? Also, whomever modded you as insightful is a MORON.

Not all that surprising... by solive1 · 2004-09-20 03:50 · Score: 5, Interesting

Bacteria (not computer, although I suppose it could apply too) evolve regularly. Some strains of staph are now resistant to most antibiotics. I had a case of MRSA (Mesocillin Resistant Staph Aureus) two summers ago after having surgery. It was most unpleasant and only an IV-induced superdrug called Vancomycin could destroy it. So, to me it's not all that surprising that TB is making a comeback. It finally figured out how to immunize itself.

Antibiotic resistances by MattW · 2004-09-20 03:53 · Score: 4, Insightful

This is why:

(1) If you're proscribed antibiotics, you should take them exactly as instructed; take them for the whole course, do not stop in the last couple days or when the symptoms go away;

(2) Do not attempt to "chase off" what you think might be an oncoming infection by taking a "leftover" pill or two from a previous subscription

(3) Realize that many infections are viral; do not expect or demand to be proscribed antibiotics contrary to your doctor's wishes

Doctors are now becoming very aware of bad behaviors which cause bacteria to become antibiotic-resistant, but convincing people to follow good practice is apparently harder.

Re:Antibiotic resistances by khallow · 2004-09-20 04:09 · Score: 5, Interesting

The solution is to come up with drugs and distribution methods that don't rely on patients' ability to follow difficult regimes. Eg, why not implant all the doses at once with some sort of metering device that insures that the course is followed? Otherwise, you eventually will have to enforce treatment by withholding treatment from those who can't follow the schedule.
Re:Antibiotic resistances by tsg · 2004-09-20 04:21 · Score: 5, Insightful

Because it makes it that much harder to stop taking them when the patient has serious side effects to the medication.

--
People's desire to believe they are right is much stronger than their desire to be right.
Re:Antibiotic resistances by kbahey · 2004-09-20 04:23 · Score: 5, Informative

Excellent advice.
However, it does not work this way in every part of the world. In third world countries, antibiotics are not as regulated as they are in G8 countries.
Pharmacists there dispense antibiotics freely without prescription, since many poor people go to the pharmacist for a cure, without having to pay the doctor's fee. This may not be purely legal, but everyone does it.
This causes more and more strains to be resistant to antibiotics, and many of the new ones become ineffective quickly.
This is why we see some almost eradicated diseases (e.g. TB in this case) revitalize and become more virulent.

--
2bits.com, Inc: Drupal, WordPress, and LAMP performance tuning.

What's interesting by prisoner · 2004-09-20 03:53 · Score: 2, Interesting

I don't know much about TB but I was having a discussion with a doctor the other day and he passed along this tidbit: Humans have never devised a way to kill viruses once inside the body. The common cold? Virus. What can you do? Wait it out. Sure we can treat symptoms and, in some cases, endrun the virus to head off some of its bad affects but meet it head to head and win? Hasn't happened yet. This discussion was in the context of the "every patient who has a cold wants an antibiotic" discussion. He has a tough time explaining to people that anitbiotics don't treat colds. Sure, they can contain a secondary infection but it won't help the cold at all...I don't know how much he was talking out of his ass but it was interesting.

Re:What's interesting by nacilmeiel · 2004-09-20 04:08 · Score: 2, Informative

Tuberculosis is caused by mycobacterium tuberculosis, and like its name, it is indeed a bacteria. However, we have not found any antibiotics succesfully in treating or killing completely the mtb. Infections of tb lie latent forever within your body. As per regard to perscribing antibiotics to viral infections (like the cold), they are nothing more than a placebo. Secondary symptoms can be placed under control by medicines (cold medicine, aspirin) that suppress immune responses, something that antibiotics do not perform. This is really a case of people thinking they know more than they do coupled with a severe confusion with reality.
Re:What's interesting by lightknight · 2004-09-20 04:09 · Score: 3, Informative

Hmm. There is a way to kill (or otherwise slow down) viral threats: Interferon.

The protein interferon, produced by animal cells when they are invaded by viruses, is released into the bloodstream or intercellular fluid to induce healthy cells to manufacture an enzyme that counters the infection. Interferon is therefore considered a potential medical resource as a BIOPHARMACEUTICAL.
For many years the supply of human interferon for research was limited by costly extraction techniques. In 1980, however, the protein became available in greater quantities through GENETIC ENGINEERING.
Scientists also determined that the body makes three distinct types of interferon, each perhaps with several members. These classes were first called leukocyte, fibroplast, and immune interferon after their supposed production sites, but it is now known that each particular class is not, after all, made by a single cell type.
The classes are therefore now called, respectively, alpha, beta, and gamma interferon. Interferons were also first thought to be extremely species-specific, but it is now known that individual interferons may have different ranges of activity in other species.Alpha interferon has been approved for therapeutic use against hairy-cell LEUKEMIA and Hepatitis C. It has also been found effective against chronic hepatitis B, a major cause of liver cancer and cirrhosis, as well as for treatment of genital warts and some rarer cancers of blood and bone marrow. Nasal sprays containing alpha interferon provide some protection against colds caused by rhinoviruses.

(http://hepatitis-c.de/whatinf.htm)

Antibiotics do jack against viral threats. They are designed (for the most part) to disrupt the bacteria's cell walls (bleed them to death). Since human cells (animal type) do not have cell walls, your body is fine. Viruses do not have cell walls, hence they are ineffective.

--
I am John Hurt.
Re:What's interesting by Rob+Simpson · 2004-09-20 18:10 · Score: 2, Insightful

No, it doesn't - it is a "fake" nucleoside which is activated in cells containing a viral enzyme and screws up viral replication since it can't be added to, terminating the DNA chain.
Viruses are basically just coated bits of DNA or RNA, so it's hard to call them alive in the first place. I don't think it is possible for a chemical to actually destroy them all by itself without killing the host body. Binding them with antigen is more feasible, especially if it's made by your own cells in response to a vaccine.

So, what is someone supposed to think? by CodeWanker · 2004-09-20 03:53 · Score: 2, Interesting

My kids are gonna never believe that "when I was your age, my parents could take me to the doctor and get me a jab with a needle and it would cure any bacterial infection you got."

And when they ask what went wrong do I get to tell them about free clinics giving unsupervised drugs to junkies in the US and Europe, and charity doctors giving unsupervised drugs to people in Africa and Asia who believe more in witch doctors and temple sacrifices than the germ theory of disease?

Is it wrong to think we shoulda withheld medical technology from people incapable of using it properly so it would still work for us?

--

"Wow. Now THAT'S a lot of angry Indians." - Lt. Col. George Armstrong Custer

Re:So, what is someone supposed to think? by tesmako · 2004-09-20 04:01 · Score: 2, Interesting

Is it wrong to think we shoulda withheld medical technology from people incapable of using it properly so it would still work for us?
Yes. By most standards it probably is.
Re:So, what is someone supposed to think? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-20 04:10 · Score: 2, Insightful

I hear you loud and clear. I sympathise with your opinion. I too relish a 'prime directive' of non-intervention where it might impact our ability to deliver medical care to our own countries in the 1st world...

BUT...

Once you start making decisions on 'who is worthy of medecine' it gets really ugly really fast. Of all the areas of society and science and fields of study, I suspect 'the slippery slope' is most evident in the world of medecine. Today, its "don't give out TB anti-biotics to those who won't finish it"...then its "don't bother treating AIDS patients against opportunistic infections...they'll die anyways." Then its "some cancers of the lympatic system deplete immune systems like AIDS, lets not treat these people either...".

Who gets to make that decision? That's a tough one, and whatever mechanisms are in place will be prone to abuse and misuse and cultural/societal/scientic bias of the day.

Aggressive screening of visitors from infected regions is probably the best bet. Also, blanket policies like "if you've done time in an asian or russian prison, you're not allowed in." are probaby more effective, and perversely more humane.
Re:So, what is someone supposed to think? by Planesdragon · 2004-09-20 04:18 · Score: 3, Insightful

Is it wrong to think we shoulda withheld medical technology from people incapable of using it properly so it would still work for us?

No. It would be wrong to refuse to TREAT those people, and wrong of us not to teach them the proper way to use the tech, but not wrong to think "man, we shouldn't give that kid a gun without teaching him how to shoot."

Sadly not new news. by Fallen+Andy · 2004-09-20 03:54 · Score: 5, Insightful

My father lost his father when he was a mere 9
years old to TB. I don't understand why people
treat this as "someone elses problem" - it isn't a
SEP. It *will* bite you. You'll never have to worry about new diseases because the old ones are doing nicely...

The irony with TB is that
people think they are getting well, and stop taking
the drugs (which are making them feel ill). End result: great selection pressure to make resistant bugs).

I for one pray that we can stamp out that big disease called ignorance (hey, look at what happened in Nigeria with that dumb fuck (who cares
what religion?) and Polio). Damn. I had a friend
with scars from hell and calipers when I was a kid
and I'm a mere 45 year old. I never want to see
such things, not even in my nightmares...

Learn something new every day. by jonathan+z · 2004-09-20 03:54 · Score: 4, Interesting

To anyone who's interested in the subject, I'd reccomend them to read Mountains Beyond Mountains by Tracy Kidder, a halfway decent book on the very interesting subject of Dr Paul Farmer, who's been desling with TB epidemics in Haiti / Siberia / Etc for quite a while now. Very informative.

Thank Bill Gates by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-20 03:55 · Score: 5, Informative

Not sarcastic at all - The Gates Foundation is one of the major forces fighting TB today.

Re:Thank Bill Gates by digidave · 2004-09-20 04:50 · Score: 4, Insightful

What idiot modded this funny?

I know we all hate Microsoft's business practices and Bill Gates' view of OSS, but it's impossible to deny the great things his foundation has done worldwide.

Please, folks, separate the man from the business.

--
The global economy is a great thing until you feel it locally.
Re:Thank Bill Gates by Skinny+Rav · 2004-09-20 05:43 · Score: 4, Insightful

Somebody already replied that whoever moderated parent as Funny is a fucking moron.

The problem with TB is it is poor man's disease (mostly), so there is not much money in it as patients with tuberculosis have no money for so called innovative drugs. Because of that there is not much research going on new treatments of TB. This makes Mr Gates' foundation even more valuable.

OK, this guy is a blood thirsty businness shark but this doesn't mean everything he does is mean. It is better if he spends some of his enormous amounts of money on TB research than hoard it or build yet another billions of dollars worth house.

Raf

P.S. OK, as there are already more than 200 posts in this subject, probably all I've written is redundant, but what the heck...

Golden Age by dmh20002 · 2004-09-20 03:55 · Score: 5, Interesting

History will show that the baby boom and X generations, who worry and fret about every little imagined risk, actually will have lived in the golden age of human health. This will be the period when antibiotics were effective and vaccines developed in the mid 20th century kept them safe from the viral diseases. Evolution will overcome all those safeguards.

People under 30 have a bleak future.

World Travel by wangotango · 2004-09-20 03:57 · Score: 4, Insightful

Even things as simple as the commom cold are highly mobile conpared to a "few" years ago. Given air travel what it is today; a small outbreak of anything highly contagious can spell absolute disaster on a global scale. It's easy to forget people have only recently become the global travelers we now are. TB and all the others are no longer isolated to the point of initial/original concentration. Adds new meaning to "just off the jet".

Old problem ignored by grape+jelly · 2004-09-20 04:01 · Score: 4, Informative

Antibiotic resistance was noted in hospitals in the 50's and 60's, spurring the few physicians who observed it to advise restrictions on antibiotic prescriptions. Few, however, heeded this advice and decades later, antibiotics are still prescribed readily throughout the world -- even without a doctor's prescription or supervision in a number of countries. Of course there is significant noise now about the continued development of resistant bacteria, but it still has little effect in places where such drugs are easy to come by and cheap.

As an interesting aside, bacteria aren't the only pathogens that can develop resistance to devices we use to kill them. Early protease inhibitor use in AIDS patients resulted in strains of AIDS that were resistant to that treatment.

Re:Old problem ignored by bahwi · 2004-09-20 04:46 · Score: 3, Insightful

Is. A few years ago(2001) it was found that 70% of all antibiotics in the US are fed to food-animals. Not just animals to be eaten, but animals that produce milk and eggs as well(hence my use of food-animal). If 70% of antibiotics is given to animals, the diseases have a leg-up before they hit the humans. And yes, when we eat food made with antibiotics, we do absorb some of those antibiotics, helping to created MDR's (as well as the animals creating MDR's).

Antibiotics abuse by erroneus · 2004-09-20 04:08 · Score: 5, Insightful

Personally, I hold doctors highly liable for the abuse, misuse and general over-use of antibiotics. Of course the patients are pretty damned stupid too, but I have seen cases where the doctor didn't see anything but a blood test before prescribing the antibiotics.

There are so many natural ways to inspire your own immune system to build and strengthen itself and it seems to me that for capitalistic reasons alone medical professionals do not prescribe them.

I'm not a doctor or medical expert either. But I'll say this much -- from the time I decided I was done taking pills and crap for every minor problem out there and let my body do its own healing, I have been a healthier, stronger person and I can't remember the last time I was sick... I remember what it was -- the flu -- but it was great than 5 years ago and basically, I just waited it out -- fever and headaches and agony and all. I recognize the fact that extreme situations call for the use of medicines and other modern medical techniques. But I think they are way over-used and in my opinion (guess) it's so they can way over-charge people.

Re:Antibiotics abuse by smooth+wombat · 2004-09-20 04:59 · Score: 2, Interesting

Have to agree 100% with what you said. In fact, I could have written as I too had a mild case of the flu about 5 years ago. How mild? Yeah, my nose ran (no jokes please) and I was somewhat sore but I still attended my CS class that night after having gone through a full day of work. 3 days later I was pretty much back to normal.

The only medication I take is the occasional Advil (3 times a year?)

I regularly wash my hands when cooking and throughout the day (no, not compulsively) and use a bleach-based cleaning product to clean counter tops and such. As you geeks should know from watching Alton Brown or CSI, bleach does wonders for killing the buggies.

When people around me complain about being sick and whatnot I just look at them and ask, "What is this sick you talk about?"

Then again, maybe I just have a great immune system.

--
We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower

Definitions by SSonnentag · 2004-09-20 04:10 · Score: 4, Insightful

If it's "worldwide" it should be called a pandemic threat, not simply an epidemic threat.

Whew! Made the cut! by PackMan97 · 2004-09-20 04:10 · Score: 2, Funny

People under 30 have a bleak future.

Damn! Just turned 30 this year...I didn't realize how lucky I had it! Sucks for my wife though who doesn't turn 30 until December.

useless alarmism... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-20 04:16 · Score: 3, Funny

Tubercolosis? LOL! This is not a problem! We live in a perfectly disinfected world... COUGH!! ... no bacteria can survive COUGHHH COUGH! we have the most advanced antibiotics and medicines... COoOoooOUGH! COUuUuuuGH!!
COUGH... WTF!?... COUGH! COUGGGHHH! SCOUGHGCH... BLEURG...
*STUNF*

mycobacteria are a pain in the ass by bodrell · 2004-09-20 04:19 · Score: 5, Informative

Imagine a super-strain of leprosy . . .

Just a little background info, blatantly ripped off of this website: http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/mycobact erium
Sorry for the crappy formatting.

Mycobacterium is the only genus in the family Mycobacteriaceae of bacteria. This genus includes many pathogens known to cause serious diseases in mammals, including tuberculosis

Tuberculosis, also called TB, phthisis, consumption, and nicknamed the white plague, is the most common infectious disease in the world today. It is caused by a bacterium, usually the Mycobacterium tuberculosis but any member of the so called Tuberculosis complex will do. If left untreated, more than 50% will die in a few years time. It causes about 2-3 million deaths per year out of 9-10 million cases and is especially prevalent in undeveloped, tropical countries.

and leprosy

Hansen's disease, also known as leprosy, is an infectious disease caused by infection by Mycobacterium leprae. The modern name of the disease comes from the discoverer of Mycobacterium leprae, G. A. Hansen. Sufferers from Hansen's disease have generally been called lepers, although this term is falling into disuse both from the diminishing number of leprosy patients and from pressure to avoid the demeaning connotations of the term.

Most mycobacteria are classified into two categories, the fast-growing kind and the slow-growing kind, and most mycobacteria share some common characteristics:
* They are widespread organisms, typically living in water (including tap water treated with chlorine) and food sources.
* They can colonize their hosts without the hosts showing any adverse signs. For example, millions of people around the world are infected with M. tuberculosis

Mycobacterium tuberculosis is the bacteria that causes most cases of tuberculosis. Its genome has been sequenced.
It is a Gram-positive aerobic mycobacterium that divides every 16-20 hours. This is extremely slow compared to other bacteria which tend to have division times measured in minutes (for example, E. coli can divide roughly every 20 minutes). It is a small rod-like bacillus which can withstand weak disinfectants and can survive in a dry state for weeks but can only grow within a host organism.

but will never know it because they will not develop symptoms.
* Mycobacterial infections are notoriously difficult to treat. The organisms are hardy and can survive long exposure to antibiotics, which naturally leads to antibiotic resistance Antibiotic resistance is the ability of a microorganism to withstand the effects of an antibiotic. Antibiotic resistance develops through mutation or plasmid exchange between bacteria of the same species. If a bacterium carries several resistance genes, it is called multiresistant or, informally, a superbug.

Most mycobacteria are susceptible to the antibiotics clarithromycin and rifamycin, but antibiotic-resistant strains are known to exist.
* Mycobacteria tend to be fastidious (difficult to culture), sometimes taking over two years to develop in culture.
Species * M. tuberculosis, which causes tuberculosis Tuberculosis, also called TB, phthisis, consumption, and nicknamed the white plague, is the most common infectious disease in the world today. It is caused by a bacterium, usually the Mycobacterium tuberculosis but any member of the so called Tuberculosis complex will do. If left untreated, more than 50% will die in a few years time. It causes about 2-3 million deaths per year out of 9-10 million cases and is especially prevalent in undeveloped, tropical countries.
* M. leprae
Mycobacterium leprae, also known as Hansen's bacillus, is the bacterium that causes leprosy (now called Hansen's disease). It is an intracellular, pleomorphic, but usually rod shaped, acid fast, gram positive, aerobic only remotel

--
Si la vida me da palo, yo la voy a soportar Si la vida me da palo, yo la voy a espabilar

Golden Age? by dexter+riley · 2004-09-20 04:21 · Score: 4, Insightful

Yeah, I'm a Gen-X'er, and I know how glad I was to have an effective AIDS vaccine when I was growing up.

Whiny, demanding patients Re:Antibiotics abuse by StefanJ · 2004-09-20 04:22 · Score: 4, Insightful

If the doctors are at fault, it is for bowing to the demands of ignorant, demanding patients who want antibiotics for every sniffle that little Tyffany or Brett get. I have had several co-workers who just wouldn't give up the belief that they could blast the common cold by having their pediatrician shoot up Junior with penicillin.

The Mexican practice of selling antibiotics over the counter doesn't help either. They're treated as a cure-all down there, and immigrants continue the practice.

Like the poster said, you're better off living a clean and healthy lifestyle, putting up with minor ailments, and saving antibiotics for actual bacterial infections.

Stefan

Three year old news by obby.net · 2004-09-20 04:24 · Score: 5, Informative

The story about the nicaraguan deaf children, and this tuberculosis story were both covered thouroughly in the PBS documentary series Evolution. Portions of the relevant segments are available online on the PBS website:

Deaf Children Video
Tuberculosis Video

Artificial lungs? by skwirl42 · 2004-09-20 04:27 · Score: 3, Interesting

We've got artificial hearts, artificial limbs and we're working on artificial eyes. What's it going to take to make artificial lungs? I'm talking from a technical standpoint here, not socially or legislatively.

Re:Artificial lungs? by gwydion04 · 2004-09-20 04:32 · Score: 3, Informative

Trouble is, you'd have to somehow come up with 100m^2 of membrane that possesses the right permeability to O2 and CO2, is not thrombogenic, and prevents bacterial/fungal growth... AND can fit in your chest.

/3rd year medical student
Re:Artificial lungs? by skwirl42 · 2004-09-20 05:09 · Score: 2, Funny

Thanks, this and the sibling post from the 3rd year med student answered my question. :)

So this is somewhere where we'd need nanotechnology to provide us with the solution. And given the right design, an inhale/exhale wouldn't be necessary, it could just constantly filter oxygen out of the air. Then it can't sit in the chest cavity, of course, without some separate exhaust port.

Of course, that just gave me an idea for a great sci-fi comedy sketch... :)
Re:Artificial lungs? by Tenebrious1 · 2004-09-20 05:14 · Score: 2, Informative

We've got artificial hearts, artificial limbs and we're working on artificial eyes. What's it going to take to make artificial lungs? I'm talking from a technical standpoint here, not socially or legislatively.

BBC had some news a while back. Don't know the status of it now. Artificial lung breakthrough

--
-- If god wanted me to have a sig, he'd have given me a sense of humor.

Re:Spitting by Ced_Ex · 2004-09-20 04:33 · Score: 2, Interesting

It probably has less to do with the spitting than it does with the fact that London, amongst many is a metropolitan city with many immigrants from third world countries. These immigrants likely carriers of the TB bacteria in their lungs. While they may be immune, those around them are not. This is similar to when the Spanish crossed the Atlantic and brought germs that wiped out large populations of Mexican natives (check out the book "Guns, Germs and Steel" - Jarod Diamond).

Also, given that in a city the population is quite dense, TB has a lot of options to spread (it is airbourne).

The best way to avoid TB... wear a mask, it block up to 98%. Better than nothing.

--
Live forever, or die trying.

Re:Been there, Done that - an observation by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-20 04:34 · Score: 2, Interesting

Not to contradict, however my bro. in law was just diagnosed with TB. He's forty three, a manager of a large trucking company and is in fairly continuous contact with native Canadian employees - whom his physician suspects of having been the "donor".

He is starting his drug cocktail within the next week and his doctor is hopefull that he'll be off it in six-nine months as his general health is good.

Although TB may be well controlled now in the US (and by logical extension Canada), it does appear to be a little more active than we are giving it credit for. I would consider this a timely article.

part of the problem by Doc+Ruby · 2004-09-20 04:36 · Score: 3, Insightful

"Alright, I'm a practicing lung doctor so I've got to say a little bit."
[...]
"Using INH for a long enough duration will not cause resistence. Dead bugs can't develop resistence."
[...]
"In the grand scheme of things, TB may be getting worse worldwide, but here in the states it seems well controlled. We have a huge immigrant population, and I have seen on a couple cases of active TB over the last 5 years."

The article we're all discussing in this thread reports the incipient global TB epidemic caused by carpetbombing TB exposees with bacteriocides, which leaves the few mutants resistant to the drug to inherit their food supply: us. The principle of using a drug like INH "long enough" to kill all of the bacteria, even the more resistant mutants, depends on "long enough" being both less than the human lifetime, and humans nearly always following the long program. The biology of TB, or any other very large population fought with merely systematic techniques, allows at least a small population to survive, which can then reproduce. If large enough, that population can overcome the human immune response that resists the original infection (if the immune system hasn't been damaged too much, along with the liver damage, from the medication). Unless each bacterium is destroyed individually, systematic is all we've got, and we're dealing with statistics. The same reality applies to human behavior - highly variable across populations of millions, inevitably slopping across any thresholds. This attitude is solid biochemistry, but bad medicine. And it's the unchanging environmental factor within which TB has adapted. Without an alternative, the MDR epidemic seems inevitable, making inroads in the US more slowly, but just as inexorably as abroad.

--

--
make install -not war

Are you a lawyer? by ackthpt · 2004-09-20 04:37 · Score: 2, Informative

That's not right, and its probably untrue. If you were threatened with your job - even if you really did have TB - then your employer comitted an actionable offense. If they really, really, really did that you own them. Especially if it was in writing.

A condition of employment was to not have TB. HIV/AIDS, pregnancy or a broken limb do not spread by a cough, to my knowledge. Maybe I'd be entitled to some form of workman's comp, but I couldn't perform my job at my location. (Which really was pretty silly when you come down to it, because 100 infected people could pass through the door every day, coughing their heads off, but an employee, nooooo...)

--

A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar

Re:Are you a lawyer? by tzanger · 2004-09-20 08:01 · Score: 2, Informative

Using antibiotic soap, wipes, laundry detergent, etc. isn't helping. You don't want to implement a eugenics program; i.e., all the stronger bugs survive and there are no weaker bugs around to help you build up an immunity.

Actually the antibiotic agents in soap and such are chemical antibiotics (i.e. chlorine, alcohol, etc.) and not antibiotic agents such as pennicilin. The bugs won't build up a defence against those until they figure out how to make armour.

Only when we believe in conspiracies... by phayes · 2004-09-20 04:44 · Score: 2, Interesting

Oh, puhlease. Does Occams razor mean anything to you? It's not ALWAYS big brother/black helicopters/aliens/Big corporations/...

What you're calling antibiotics, most people call poisins. Organisms evolved these poisons in order to achieve an ecological advantage, but the problem is that they almost always come with side effects. Extermely rare indeed are the toxins that kill off only bacteria without killing you.

The reason most pharmacutical companies concentrate on derivatives is because with relatively little effort they create modified versions of an effective antibiotic work with little side effects.

So, you've found a toxic molecule. Now figure out how it works & what possible use it can be. Remember that no drug comes on the market without mass testing. Hope you've got enough money to finance all that.

Searching through all the different poisins to find molecules is not only a massive undertaking, it also omits the production side of the equation. What good is it to find that miracle molecule if you cannot produce enough to help more than a few people because its source is some rare mushroom that cannot be cultivated. Look into Taxol for an example. It is touted as a miracle drug for cancer, but initially it could only be extacted (in very small quantities) from the bark of the english yew. Yew is not an extremely rare tree bur harvesting enough taxol to treat everyone in the USA for a year would have meant killing every tree on earth. Things have gotten better now that it is possible to create taxol from precursor molecules in the needles, but it is still a very rare and expensive drug. See here for more info.

I'm no doctor but I'm violently allergic to penecillin & most of it's derivatives, so I've looked into why most antibiotic drugs make me sick. I wish there were more choices for me incase of a serious infection, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to go off half cocked on the basis of what a program on Discovery said...

--
Democracy is a sheep and two wolves deciding what to have for lunch. Freedom is a well armed sheep contesting the issue

What Inheritance? by DelawareBoy · 2004-09-20 04:45 · Score: 2, Insightful

As an FYI, we're currently seeing a trend of the older population spending their kids inheritance.

Traditionally, parents bequeath their homes, money, etc.. to their children, and this was a big part of the economy.

Now, with people living longer, the parents are far more likely to spend the money on travel, dining out, etc. (assuming they are in good health) Couple this with the fact that the ones in poor health have their money given to Nursing homes / Prescriptions / etc.

I don't know how, but this definately changes the economy.. So, I don't see the "leaving behind more money" argument.

Rest sound ok, though.

Mod parent (-1: needs a college micro course) by ValentineMSmith · 2004-09-20 04:58 · Score: 3, Informative

What a day to be without mod points.

Please do a quick Google for antibiotic families and modes of action. You will find pages like this and this.

Penicillin and derivitaves are still prescribed, but virtually every bug in the world (+ dog) is resistent to them.

One evening of watching the Discovery channel does not a B.S. in Microbiology confer.

The "natural" antibiotics to which you refer are still being found by the dozens. The problems are not (primarily) with patents. You have to:

You have to find an organism that has some antibiotic activity. Not as easy as you might thing. Searches go on CONSTANTLY, and the major drug companies grab soil samples from everywhere they can to test for organisms in the soil that exhibit unknown antibiotic properties.

You've spent several years and have found a likely candidate. Now you have to test the snot out of it. How does it do what it does? Is it a cell wall synthesis inhibitor? Does it go after 23S ribosomes? How about side effects? After all, bleach is one of the best antibiotics in the world. It's used for disinfection in BSL3 and BSL 4 microbiology labs. However, it wouldn't do you much good if you were to drink it, either. Drug interactions? If it kills someone that is taking a common drug (or worse, an uncommon drug), you're still in trouble.

Now, you have to start the FDA certification process. Do you think the FDA reimburses you for the millions you've spent to this point if things go bad? Nope. Do you think they're even going to reimburse you for the millions you're going to spend in clinical trials? Not likely. Remember Martha Stewart and IMClone? The bottom fell out of ImClone because they'd sunk a good chunk of their cash into a drug that was not going to be approved (granted, IIRC it was a cancer drug and not an antibiotic, but the principle applies).

Yes, pharmaceutical companies are businesses. They are for-profit. But it is not so much corporate greed that causes some of the outrageous drug prices as it is them having to pay for the research costs involved with the 99 drugs that didn't make it to market with the money made from the one drug that did.

Please do some research before making statements like the ones you've made.

--
Karma: Chameleon - mostly influenced by bad '80s New Wave music

Homeless infections by Hoi+Polloi · 2004-09-20 04:58 · Score: 4, Informative

The chronically homeless are also susceptible to TB from basically nonexistent health care and occasionally living in close quarters in shelters. Add to that their bodies are frequently weakened by alcohol abuse, poor shelter and poor hygiene and you have a vector for TB frequenting public transportation, emergency rooms, shelters, police, etc.

Requiring them to take medicine isn't even a viable option since many suffer from mental illness and they also tend to move around a lot with no way to contact them.

--
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning

Fantastic Book on subject by jelevy01 · 2004-09-20 05:01 · Score: 3, Interesting

I highly recomend reading Mountains Beyound Mountains: Health the World: The Quest of Dr. Paul Farmer

He essentailly discovered that DOTS doesn't work

In this excellent work, Pulitzer Prize-winner Kidder (The Soul of a New Machine) immerses himself in and beautifully explores the rich drama that exists in the life of Dr. Paul Farmer. A Massachusetts native who has been working in Haiti since 1982, Farmer founded Zanmi Lasante (Creole for Partners in Health), a nongovernmental organization that is the only health-care provider for hundreds of thousands of peasant farmers in the Plateau Central. He did this while juggling work in Haiti and study at the Harvard Medical School. (Farmer received his M.D. and a Ph.D. in anthropology simultaneously in 1990.) During his work in Haiti, Farmer pioneered a community-based treatment method for patients with tuberculosis that, Kidder explains, has had better clinical outcomes than those in U.S. inner cities. For this work, Farmer was recognized in 1993 with a MacArthur Foundation "genius grant," all of which he donated to Zanmi Lasante. Using interviews with family members and various friends and associates, Kidder provides a sympathetic account of Farmer's early life, from his idiosyncratic family to his early days in Haiti. Kidder also recounts his time with Farmer as he travels to Moscow; Lima, Peru; Boston; and other cities where Farmer relentlessly seeks funding and educates people about the hard conditions in Haiti. Throughout, Kidder captures the almost saintly effect Farmer has on those whom he treats. Copyright 2003 Reed Business Information, Inc.

Sterling on antibiotic-resistant bacteria: great! by jonabbey · 2004-09-20 05:09 · Score: 4, Informative

One of the very best things I've read on the topic of antibiotic-resistant bacteria:

Bruce Sterling: Bitter Resistance

--
- jon

Ganymede, a GPL'ed metadirectory for UNIX

Bacteriophage saga by Anonymous+Writer · 2004-09-20 05:10 · Score: 4, Informative

Bacteriophage appears to be an alternative to antibiotics for fighting bacteria. An article (you have to pay to access it) in Discover Magazine by Peter Radetsky about bacteriophage was published in November, 1996. It was mentioned by a man named Caisey Harlingten in a Horizon documentary on the BBC, and seems to have been an important publication that set things into motion. What isn't mentioned in the transcript is that right at the end of the documentary, text appears that says the deal between the American company called Georgia Research, Inc. set up by Harlingten and the Eliava Institute fell apart.

Wired wrote a follow up article on the story. One of the disputes involved another man, Alexander Sulakvelidze, opposing the seemingly pointless aim to genetically engineering phages, which Harlingten wanted to do. This possibly has something to do with the fact that genetically engineered products are protected by patents and can be regulated by intellectual property laws, whereas natural phages are not. This is what Harlingten is up to now. He is trying to apply phage therapy to multi-drug resistant Tuberculosis . And this is what Sulakvelidze is up to now, applying phage therapy to livestock.

Evergreen State College and the Rowland Institute at Harvard have pages about bacteriophage. Phage therapy may have some side effects, however. Some types of phage carry genes that can actually make bacteria pathogenic (briefly mentioned at end of page). This has been observed in E. Coli as a response to antibiotics.

Re:Bacteriophage saga by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-20 07:08 · Score: 2, Informative

Phage therapy, unfortunately, is only truly effective in focalized, accessible colonizations and infections. For this reason, it has been explored as a potential therapeutic agent for wound infections etc. Systemic applications are a little dicey, since there are obvious concerns over the potential immunogenicity of the phage. Certainly, it may be possible to make a mycobacterium spp.-specific bacteriophage in an inhalable format, TB tends to be isolated and "walled-off" by the host, and it is likely that the phage will be unable to effectively access pockets of bacteria in the lungs.

While bacteriophage certainly show significant promise as a novel therapeutic approach, their utility is probably limited to a specific subset of localized infections.

A word or two on the antibiotic mix by haggar · 2004-09-20 05:10 · Score: 4, Informative

This "mix" is (or should be!) mandatory for any form of TBC, not only multi-resistive.
These antibiotics are extremely hard on your liver and also damage your eyesight. One of them colors your urine in pink/red. One additional drawback is that, at the end of the 6-month regimen, your system defenses will be at an all-time low, and it will take several years before you can be back to what you were before the therapy.

IF you default on this therapy, however (if you stop the start taking the medicine again, or you don't take all the pills in the mix etc.) you are going to develop a resistive or multi-resistive strain of TBC. If you develop the multi-resistive strain, you're in GREAT trouble, and are a huge hazard for the people you spend time with (which is, presumibly, the ones that are most dear to you). There are very few antibiotics which are effective with such strains, and are both expensive and hugely damaging to the liver (that's why they are not used with normal strains). Even with them, your chances of survival are not great.

So, if you do happen to get TBC, don't fuck around wth it, be pedantic and take all the medication every day, without ever skipping a dose.

--
Sigged!

2,000,000 and counting. by rsklnkv · 2004-09-20 05:30 · Score: 2, Interesting

With profits up in the corrections industry I'd venture to guess that TB will only grow right along with the Prison Industrial Complex. At the current rate of growth (in the US alone) we are looking at approx. 6,000,000 prisoners by 2020. That's a very modest figure, BTW.
From first-hand experience, TB is in love with prison. Most often, prisoners are either unable to get the medical assistance they need, especially when they are released (see: Punishment is profitable, reform is not). Others are simply uneducated regarding the risks they face when infected or the dangers they pose to others. Some simply don't give a shit, considering they're locked up in a cage year after year most likely (80% of the time) for a non-violent offense. TB is nothing new to prison. More prisoners==more TB.

--
_____ "If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." -- Orwell

And here's the link, for the lazy by Crag · 2004-09-20 05:46 · Score: 3, Informative

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycobacterium

Re:Homeopathy by Just+Some+Guy · 2004-09-20 06:12 · Score: 2, Informative

The dose that you use is so dillute (more than a part in a trillon)

If homeopathic "medicine" (ha!) contained that many active molecules, I'd at least be willing to concede that they may be a possible (if unlikely) pathway to health. However, look at a bottle sometime, and look for the "strength" indicator which will be one of "10x", "30x", and "100x". Those numbers indicate how many times the original substance has been diluted by a factor a 1:10 (source: the pro-homeopathy site at http://www.faerymagick.com/homeapat.htm).

Now, the "10x" doses will still have a full one ten-billionth of the original substance left. Now, assume that the "medicine" has an exquisitely low atomic mass - for convenience, let's say that you want to take pure Carbon-12. Further imagine that you'll be taking a 12-gram dose of it. At "10x", you'll still be getting about 6*10^13 of the molecules you started with.

However, remember that quacks^Whomeopathists believe that the weaker the dilution, the stronger the "medicine". At "30x", there's a 1:6*10^7 chance of getting even a single molecule of "medicine". At "100x", that drops to 1:6*10^77. Frankly, "cure by being simultaneously struck by lightning, a meteorite, and the blast from our Sun spontaneously going supernova" has much more likelihood of pharmacological benefit.

Don't ever refer to homeopathy as "medicine". It's not. Call it "psychologically active", or "psychosomatic breakthrough", or just plain "placebo", but don't ever give it the credibility of equating it with a real cure for illness.

--
Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?

You make your own bed. . . by Fantastic+Lad · 2004-09-20 06:15 · Score: 2, Insightful

Jeez.

Saw this coming from 20 years ago.

I remember sitting in high school science class going over the details. Our Birkenstock-wearing teacher was probably breaking the rules by telling us what he'd learned. Darned socially aware hippies!

Livestock farmers mixing non-lethal doses of antibiotics into the feed to keep bacteria at controllable levels. (Creating bacteria breeding boilers.)

Junkies, who destroy their immune systems with their chemicals of choice, would normally die off fairly fast but for black-market/clinic-distributed, improperly used antibiotics. Concentrated junkie populations, like those I've walked among in Vancouver and Amsterdam are super-breeders for germs. Chilling and very real.

And then of course, there's the regular citizenry and drugs like 'Contact-C' which allow people to ignore symptoms which would normally put them in bed (where one can properly recover without drugs), and thus keep them at work where they spread the virus and wear themselves down further until a simple viral infection can graduate into a full-fledged bacterial bloom. --Then it's off to the doctor for antibiotics which many don't bother finishing properly once they feel their symptoms fading. --Doesn't matter how often you explain the Hows and Whys to a drone about why they HAVE to finish their antibiotics prescription. People who have been programmed to glaze over when confronted with important knowledge are both common and dangerous.

Humanity is getting exactly what it designed for itself.

Fortunately, ignorance is self-punishing and awareness protects those who choose to learn and act upon what they learn. --Viruses can be avoided if one has groomed their awareness, health and energy. I've not been sick in several years now, and I certainly don't manage it by allowing some drug-salesman 'doctor' to jab me with thimerosal/mercury-laced flu shots! (Which dull the brain, and I strongly suspect, reduce the strength of one's natural immune system, thus increasing the perceived need for just such profitable pharmaceuticals).

But you know, 'Science' is good and great and all that, precluding the need to question the intent behind the needle. Far too many people have traded their critical minds for easy, false trust and never question when they see the 'Science' label and hear an authoritative, soothing voice.

Remember; it's okay to be wrong. You will constantly be faced with false data if you choose the road of continual learning. Just be sure to correct it accordingly as you discover it. You WILL be punished for your mistakes by those who want to stop you from learning, but that's part of the journey. --In the long run, the lemmings are the ones who get sick, and they want your (enforced) company.

How much do you value your social acceptance?

-FL

my mistake by bodrell · 2004-09-20 07:04 · Score: 2, Informative

Just a note that thefreedictionary.com just takes its info from Wikipedia and adds advertising. So please refer back to the original Wikipedia page. Wikipedia is the sum total of human knowledge. It rules.

I don't like it either when people snag their content from wikipedia. If I'd realized what I was doing, I would have found the wikipedia link. Why look at ads when you don't have to?

--
Si la vida me da palo, yo la voy a soportar Si la vida me da palo, yo la voy a espabilar

Re:Homeopathy by Just+Some+Guy · 2004-09-20 07:12 · Score: 2, Insightful

to some extent, all medicines are psychosomatic

No. It's completely misleading to say that penicillin has any mentally-induced effects on the cell wall of a pneumococcus. It very well make the patient subjectively feel better in that they know that their disease is being treated, but that has no objective effect whatsoever in the actual physiological healing mechanism.

and lastly, *any* kind of treatment, if it works, should not be discredited for the person using them.. even if it's a minute doasge of a plant that may or may not actually be helping them, even if it doesn't work for everyone..

Yes, it should be loudly and repeatedly discredited. Pain is a legitimate target for non-physiological "treatments", in that much of the subjective experience is due to how the patient expects to feel. A placebo may help a patient expect to feel better and therefore actually make them feel less pain, although recent studies would indicate that this effect is far less powerful than previously thought.

However, there is no "placebo effect" that can counteract infectious agents. People who believe that there is only present a health threat to themselves and those around them. Do you honestly think that Pamela Anderson can really cure her hepatitis with "alternative medicine"? No way! It could (possibly) help her to believe that she should be experience less discomfort from her illness and therefore help her to feel less subjective pain, but that's it - she'll still have a virus chewing through her liver regardless of how spiffy her fake-doctor makes her feel.

BTW, my post and its parent were both modded down -1: Troll until the instant you posted. Thank you for having the courage to change your mind and discuss this instead of hiding behind your previous down-mods.

--
Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?

U.N.: HIV/AIDS Fuels Tuberculosis Crisis by Baldrson · 2004-09-20 07:26 · Score: 2, Informative

Major media are carrying the story that the UN is blaming much of the spread of drug resistant TB on the prevalence of AIDS/HIV-infection. This is due to the susceptibility of those populations to become infected and spread the disease to others.

--
Seastead this.

Deadly form of tuberculosis in Eastern Europe by dumol · 2004-09-20 07:34 · Score: 2, Interesting

I would like to share a first-hand story I've heard from a Romanian doctor. I've known him while working as a social worker with homeless elderly in Bucharest (yes, we have so many homeless people around here, that it sometimes makes sense to work only with the elderly). One of the colleagues of this doctor died because of a new kind of TB, resistant to all known medicins. She was a doctor and consequently got the best treatment money can get from phase one of the disease (she was aware of the dangers she was exposing herself while working with chronic TB pacients).

The thruth is there are places in the world where you are in danger of contacting a deadly form of TB. As noted, that's because even a little carelessness in taking antibiotics can help TB mutate into drug-resistant forms. At least, here in Romania, TB resistant to treatment has become a very serious threat. Don't understimate this, as it has the potential of changing the world as we know it.

--

--
I started with nothing and still have most of it left.

Copyright, Tuberculosis, and Y2K by buckhead_buddy · 2004-09-20 07:34 · Score: 3, Insightful

Sorry, I don't want to drag this off-topic into another screed about the evils of extended copyright, but it is mildly relevant.

My grandfather was a well-respected medical researcher. The works that he developed his fortune and reputation have been superceded, but toward the "mature" part of his career in the 1930's he did a lot of work on tuberculosis especially with animal tests on cattle. The articles my grandfather wrote are still under copyright. He's been dead for decades, and tuberculosis has been a non-issue for most Americans for years. Now that a more vicious strain of TB is starting to emerge, I find it disturbing that this material is still illegal to share.

If you can't see what I'm talking about, look at the two-digit year rollover problem framed in the media as Y2K. All of the research into the causes, identifications, and solutions to the "millenium bug" will remain under copyright for close to 90 years under current copyright law. Imagine though that copyright was extended yet again and these works weren't public domain until AFTER the next two digit rollover in 2100.

Just as people have already started to build two-digit years into databases again, so have people given up on many practices that might minimize the spread of TB. Some people can't even identify these practices or understand why they're at issue.

I realize that the research into Y2K and bovine tuberculosis isn't "gone" that it's still around under lease, but it seems that having only the choice of paying for out-of-date information on a tangential problem or recreating the works someone else did is a waste of resources (money or time) that could be better applied toward whatever problem is causing researchers to look back on these old issues.

I'm thinking about digging into my grandfather's work papers (what's left anyway) and trying to digitize some of his data, notes, and private letters on the subject of bovine TB. Some of this data probably can't be collected today because of regulations on animal testing that didn't exist in the 1930's. I know full well that it would be irrelevant to the current threat of drug resistant tuberculosis strains, but it might let some researchers or problem-solvers keep their money and time focused where the real problem is rather than paying/recreating old research.

While I'm not against people making money from their research and creative works, the length of time that this stuff remains under protection is absurd. The money made either for my family or the publishers trailed off to nothing decades ago. The potential monteary profit of his work is far outweighed by my own interests in not becoming a victim of a drug-resistant version of this affliction. The benefit of this work today is only as part of a contextual frame or foundation for research into other communicable diseases.

M. bovis and M. avium by aswang · 2004-09-20 12:46 · Score: 2, Informative

M. bovis can cause cavitary lung disease and disseminated disease just like M. TB. Clinically and microscopically, they are indistinguishable. The only difference is in method of transmission. While M. TB gets inhaled, M. bovis is usually eaten, found in unpasteurized dairy products.

M. avium usually doesn't pose a threat to people with intact immune systems, but it is a common AIDS-defining infection. There are also other Mycobacterium that are only usually found in AIDS like M. kansasii and M. scrofalaceum, but they pretty much paint the same picture.

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