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Gates, Jobs, Torvalds: Who is Most Important?
Ian Wilson writes "silicon.com has launched its latest Agenda Setters poll which puts together a list of the top 50 people influencing tech. I remember Slashdot carried last year's poll - which was won by Steve Jobs. The full top 50 includes many of the usual suspects. Last year's winner Steve Jobs has slipped down to second place, but perhaps most interesting is the fact that the panel of judges couldn't separate Linus Torvalds and Bill Gates - they are tied in seventh place."
... the most interesting thing is that #1 is a guy from the BBC. As they look to digitise their content, the BBC is carving itself a really nice niche on the Web -- a World Service for the 21 century.
Athletic Scholarships to universities make as much sense as academic scholarships to sports teams.
[This is possibly more 'yro' than 'it' but the consequences are truly scary for the UK if this man gets his way]
Look at number 5 - David Blunkett. This man makes all other (previously thought to be totalitarian) Home Secretaries in the UK look positively liberal. To recount:
Sure he's an agenda-setter, but Vlad the impaler had an agenda. It didn't make it a good agenda, unless you happened to be Vlad himself...
Simon.
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And the most depressing thing is that there's only two chicks in the top 50. Tho someone named "Tata" oughta count.
"Wow. Now THAT'S a lot of angry Indians." - Lt. Col. George Armstrong Custer
To do my bit for pseudo-democracy worldwide, I tried to vote; when I did, though, I was asked to vote again. And again... wonder did my vote count at all. Damn, it's just like living in Florida.
To commit heresy, though: should Linus be that high on the list? Sure, he's influential in linux, and linux should be represented, but in the happy world of IT shouldn't some Red Hat or Suse guy be higher?
In case you care, I voted for Hu Jintao. I don't share the judges' belief that vendors will dominate in China, and I reckon that Hu could well in years to come cause geeks much angst as they support his open source policies while being less fond of his oppression policies.
Larry Page and Sergey Brin? Granted, they may not be as high as a lot of the other people on the list, but they should be on it. How many other companies are having as big of an impact on the Internet as Google? Not many.
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. --Winston Churchill
...but perhaps most interesting is the fact that the panel of judges couldn't separate Linus Torvalds and Bill Gates - they are tied in seventh place.
Is there any difference between the two men? Don't they both more or less control an operating system that is freely distributable, freely modifiable, strongly based on standards, with rock solid performance?
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I am the customer.
I am the most important...
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I disagree about Steve just filling a role. When Steve left Apple, Apple started to suffer. It wasn't until Steve returned in '97 that the 'new Apple' really started to kick ass.
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It disgraceful that Britney Spears didn't even make the top 50 this year. Without her, I don't think Google would ever get any searches.
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Well, there was GNU before there was Linux. Maybe it wouldn't be as popular, but there would be OSS. Thank Richard Stallman for that.
Please, please, this post isn't meant to start a flamewar of Richard Stallman vs. Linus Torvalds, I'm just saying OSS would probably exist without Linus.
How originial:
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I'd hardly say that Gates is non technical. I doubt he could have acheived to head one of the largest money making coorporations without starting from somewhere, and he dind't have millions of programmers when he started with BASIC back 30 years ago. Not that I'm saying he's any better than Torvalds but Gates does have great technical abilities.
If you're talking about who's been most influential in holding back computing by about 10 years.. I believe Mr Gates wins hands down.
Before I get modded down to oblivion (or up, this is slashdot), look at where the real innovations come from; it isn't Microsoft, unless you count the small companies that it assimilates once they come up with something promising.
An example: with the iPod, Apple is setting a new standard for mp3 players, and there's healthy competition. What is Microsoft setting the standard in? (apart from it's own standards..)
I don't think Mr Gates can be considered influential, next to others who are actually shaping rather than strangling the industry. My opinion, YMMV etc.
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"Linus is much more important than Bill Gates!"
Why?
I'd say Gates is more important. Mostly because if Gates died tomorrow, it would affect the economy a lot more than if Linus died tomorrow. Plus, Gates has given more to charitable organizations than Linus will ever make in his life.
Whom do I prefer? Linus. Whom do I think is a nicer guy, and a better tech? Linus. Who is more important to a larger percent of the population? Gates.
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I agree with you that Gates should be the lowest of the three. He is, after all, only there because he owns a monopoly large enough that it can bastardize standards created by other people.
But I think Jobs and Linus should be tied, and higher on the list. Everything you said about Linus is true - he has helped spearhead the OSS movement. But Jobs has generally set the agenda that others follow. Linux has made great strides in making computers accessible to the extremely computer litterate who know what they want their computers to do. Macs have done an equally good job of making computers accessible to those who don't know so much about computers, but would really like to use them. Both men are equally committed to their respective causes.
I get the sense that Microsoft is not necessarily the reflection Bill Gates or his ideas. I think it does whatever amounts in the most profit. On the other hand, I think Jobs and Torvalds are both driven by idealogies. When asked why they made decisions, they respond with the term "should." As in: computers should do this, or operating systems should not behave like this.
I think that makes both of them better leaders and very high on this list.
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I asked everybody in my house a question
"who is more important, bill gates or linus torvalds"
bill was the winner because none of the people knew "the other guy".
It's more than clear bill has had more influence in our world at this moment than linus has (though linux/oss might influence the world to new business models, but thats tomorrow and maybe)
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This is simply not the case, as I think most of us realize. We may all despise Microsoft, and we may all love Linux, but we're simply ignoring the truth if we think Linus Torvalds has been more influential than Bill Gates.
The issue is this: Linus may have ushered in the creation of a better product than Bill Gates. But quality doesn't necessarily correlate to influence. The very fact that the Linux-loving Slashdot crowd grumbles about how everyone uses MS even though Linux is better should be the first indication that Bill Gates is more important. He may be ugly, and he may have created the most evil company with the worst software, but his work has been influential. Without him and DOS/Windows, I'm not sure computers would have become a common household appliance until much later.
Hey, where's Darl McBride!
If my answers frighten you, stop asking scary questions.
So all this is about top 50 people influencing tech.
Then this all should go to Bill Gates. Why ? Because usually (and sadly) it's mostly not the guy who has the largest influence, but the money. This meaning if you can't persuade them, buy them or pay them.
I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I can think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do.
OSS *DID* exist before Linus, he is just a great posterboy. To be honest, if Linux had not come around, the Hurd would probably be much farther along. I don't think the Hurd would be as developed as Linux is now, but many of the same people that are spending time on Linux would have spent time on it instead. The Hurd does predate the Linux kernel (can't remember how long).
The biggest advantage Linus had at the beginning was the ability to get others to pitch in and help, building a very large network of contributors. It appears he was better organized back when Linux was less developed than the Hurd, and organization matters.
Part of this may be because (right or wrong) people see Linus as non-political, whereas RMS's views seem to be more political. My bet is this attracted people who were neutral about the GPL and Free software, as well as the zealots. A bigger tent attracts more contributors.
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Otherwise, it would be prety easy to aruge that Tim Berners-Lee is more important than Linus.
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Jobs - Still visionary, still a good business man, still leading his company. Apple definitely won't be the same without him. Apple is what it is today because of him. Most importantly, he's Steve Jobs - of Apple. People listen to him.
Torvalds - Still visionary, still a good coder. Still has influence over Linux kernel, but not so much as he used to. Linux will continue without Linus. Linux is what it is because he started it and gave it to the community.
Gates - Bill Gates and Microsoft are no longer synonymous. The culture at Microsoft won't notice when Bill is gone. The only thing significant about Bill now is his bank account. Microsoft is what it is today because of lawyers, marketing, more lawyers, other people in MS, and even more lawyers. Bill Gates hasn't been relevant to Microsoft for some time.
I'm going to go back in my box and will think within the limits of my box: MS Sucks Linux Good I read too much Slashdot.
I can get by without a gate, but I can't get by without a job.
You simply could not be more wrong in your statement. If it weren't for Linus, the OSS movement would now stick to a free OS based either on 386BSD or GNU/Hurd - or some combination of these. Everything would look pretty similar to the real world as we know it.
Bill's case is far from obvious - if it wasn't him in particular, his place would be most likely taken by Gary Kildall. The history of personal computing would look entirely different, as Kildall was far from being a monopolist egomaniac like Gates and Ballmer. Kildall's company, Digital Research, could easily be the Microsoft of the 8-bit computers. Their system was just _the_ system for 8-bit machines, but Kildall did not try to use his advantage as a vehicle for building monopolist empire. Quite contrary, he was sticking to the principle that the company that makes OS should not take part in the application market. That's actually how Microsoft has found its niche - as a key vendor of the CP/M applications. So if it wasn't Bill, CP/M-86 would be the MS-DOS, and GEM Desktop would be Microsoft Windows - but there would be NO equivalent of Internet Explorer, Microsoft Outlook or Microsoft Office, and that would be probably good news (we would have various competing office suites instead).
The case of Steve Jobs is even more obvious - Apple with Steve and Apple without Steve (1985-1997) are just different companies. No Steve - no iPod. Period.
Erich Gamma, Richard Helm, Ralph Johnson, John Vlissides, Graddy Booch, James Rumbaugh, and Ivar Jacobson to name a few.
Gates was influenced by technology more then he influenced it. He'll be remembered as the guy who made a lot of money from technology not as someone who created anything.
We all know the outcome of a celebrity deathmatch between Bill and Linus:
From pictures, I'd say that Linus has a physical advantage over Gates; but Bill would probably play dirty and get someone else (Balmer, perhaps) to fight for him (he never doesn anything for himself.) That would give Linus the excuse to play tag-team with Tove, and she'd kick the ass of Bill, Melinda, *and* Balmer (remember Tove is a six-time Finnish National karate champ!)
I'll grant you that Gates has *had* more of an effect on the impact of the computer industry than Linus has in the past. But, Gates is a dinosaur. I'll grant you that he is a really cool dinosaur. He is a great big Tyranasauros Rex. But he is still a dynasaur.
If Gates died tomorrow, more people would sell shares of Micorosft stock, out of Fear that the company could not perform without their glorious leader. And that would impact them. But, in reality, Gates has stepped aside, a long time ago.
Linus is a like a great big meteorite that came from outer space. And right now, we are just beginning to see this dust cloud forming... So, when you ask, which is more important, the T-Rex, or the meteorite, I would got with the meteorite.
But that's just me.
The fact that all the other dinosaurs are still looking around saying,"We all live in awe and fear of the T-Rex and we have never even heard of the meteorite," is hardly a convincing argument to the contrary...
Randy.Flood@RHCE2B.COM
I think that when Linus said that SCO was on crack, my respect for the man went up about 1000%.
Where is Bruce Schneier on this list? While I am admittedly pretty ignorant on who most of these figures are on this list, I don't understand the ommission of Bruce here. He is, at least in my estimation, the single most influential figure in the area of computer security and cryptography and had a hand in developing a few commonly used cryptographic algorithms in use today (blowfish for example). With the world moving more and more online and ecommerce taking center stage how is the figurehead and most quoted individual of the information security field not listed?
The most important person in tech over the next decade or two is someone few of us have ever met. He or she will start (or has started) the company that will lead the next revolution in computing. Perhaps it will focus on atomic computing, perhaps it will be optical. Few of us realize its significance, and fewer still could guess how it will change the face of technology. Bill Gates, Linus, and Mr. Jobs are interesting, but they are the hallmark of *today's* state of the art. :)
This isn't a popularity contest. It doesn't matter who is more famous. The people on this list are the ones that have changed the way we do things with computers. In this respect, I think Steve Jobs should be number one. His decisions at Apple spread throughout the entire computer industry. Apple decides to use USB and Firewire... now they are "standard equipment". Apple ditches the floppy drive... now you have to ask for one if you order dell, ibm or gateway. And all those PC modders are just jealous of the pretty mac cases ;-).
These lists are worthless, I don't know what draws me to them. I see it and I just have to see who is on it.
Technology isn't a one-person effort. It is the total combined efforts of a wide variety of companies, engineers, technicians, and other people doing what they do best. It is a symbiotic relationship that crosses almost any boundary put in front of it. If the plastic's people can't find an answer to a problem, maybe the ceramic's people can.
Think of the progression of the Intel processor and the hundreds or thousands of people who have had a hand in it's development along the way. Sure there are names that rise to the top, but litterally hundreds of engineers, technicians, and probably even janitors have contributed different ideas and insights into how to grow that little calculator chip into the massive CPU that we have today.
It doesn't stop there though. Someone had to take that computer chip and make it do something. Along came the hundreds of engineers from IBM and many, many other companies. They built the box that housed the chip and then found that they had something.
But what they had wasn't complete. Along came the boys from Microsoft, Digital Research and other companies. They cobbled together something that made the box do something.
What they had was a genuine invention. But someone thought they could make it do something else. They tinkered and hacked and low and behold, it did something else. And then another thing and so on and so on and so on.
By now millions of people in almost every country in the world are involved. Someone decided to make a list of the most influential people?
Isn't that like picking a few hairs out of your scalp and calling then your favorite?
I want to take my hat off and salute every single person and every single company who has ever endevoured to make something better! It is this insatiable need to improve that has taken mankind to where we are today and it is this same compulsion that will make tomorrow possible. In the grand scheme of things, Names like Torvalds, Gates, and whoever else are just figureheads for countless nameless and faceless people out there making things better.
They have only blocked people comming from slashdot. Copy paste link and it should work.
I'm number 864,576. You're number 1,365,918.
Jobs: most influential in fashion.
Torvalds: most influential in *actual* technology.
I'm not saying that Microsoft or Apple don't have any effect on technology, but anyone who thinks that Jobs or Gates are ubergeeks are deluding themselves.
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This story is just reattributed to Vlad. It was originally a story about Hatto II of Mainz, who was Archbishop there between 968 and 970 (those dates are provable facts). He also was said to have invited all poor in his diocesy to a huge meal, and he also commanded the doors to be closed and the hall to be burned down.
But when the hall sunk to ashes, a big tribe of mice broke out of the ruins and started to hunt Archbishop Hatto. He tried to have the mice squashed, killed, blocked, nothing helped. So he fled out of Mainz down the Rhine. Near the town of Bingen he asked a ferryman to row him over to a small island with a fortified tower built on it. He ran into the tower and blocked the door. But the mice, being millions of them, were swimming through the waters of the Rhine, reaching the island, entering the tower and eating Archbishop Hatto.
The tower at the island near Bingen can still be visited, it's called the Maeuseturm (lit.: Mice Tower) since then. For further references check a short descripton of the site. Other sources attribute the story to Archbishop Hatto I, a predecessor of Hatto II.
Linus Torvalds makes a convenient representational symbol for the Linux community (it's named after him, after all), but is he really an Agenda Setter?
And, truthfully, Linux is the architect of the Linux *kernel*, which is stable and reliable and all of that, but it's a very small part of the Linux user experience. Actually, it's an insignificant part of the Linux user experience. If the Linux kernel were replaced with, say, BSD, then what impact would that have on someone who spends all of his time in the KDE desktop? This is not to belittle Linus's achievement, but at some point who matters more: the guy who builds guitars or the people who use those guitars to make amazing music? It's not like people say "Oh, my favorite band XXX is so completely enabled by the man who invented the electric guitar."
Duh, he fathered the guy who would one day lead the resistance and bring down SkyNet.
It doesn't get much more technology-influencing than that.
It's rare that you're presented with a knob whose only two positions are Make History and Flee Your Glorious Destiny.
This despite the fact that she might not ever have written a line of code in her life.
Then, to my mind, this means Linus, Alan, Richard, Manuel and all the others need to be paraded on Oprah, IBM commercials, and more. Have ANY of these been shown as Geek of the Week?
Instead of much of the reality TV bullshit, we need the 5-minute spot of Linux and F/LOSS personalities to be rotated. Not just Linus, tho, but ALL the major voices from the foreground to the average code contributor.
Surely, some will want to lay low for employment reasons, but others who have contributed code could as well be in a Freedom Hall of Fame. By corollary, ms' henchmen/women could be in the Encroachment Hall of Shame.
It would be nice if IBM would sponsore these commercials. I haven't watched much "live" TV, opting for eye-selected DVDs from the local import video shop, but is IBM doing anything lately. I did in the past 2 weeks look at the list
http://www.ibm.com/ibm/tvads/
of commercials IBM ran, but didn't see anything doing "The Average Freedom Lover".
Actually, putting a little cup o' tea in their hands in some tiny French cups, with Mandrake on one side of the table, and tall Lipton on the Red Hat side, with Novell & SUSE sporting Ginseng and a lager, we might get some serious laughs at microshaft's (lower-casing/deprecation of microsoft's name intentional/perpetual with me...) expense. But, it would take IBM's money to make sure the ads ran, or ms' marketing department would preempt all the ads slots...
David Syes
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
Actually, from direct personal experience, the biggest problem with massive and centralised databases isn't malicious abuse. Rather, it's old-fashioned operator error, but now of the "one wrong number typed and someone's life gets turned upside down for months" kind.
Unfortunately, there is often an implicit culture of denial: the database is "almost perfect", so the procedures for fixing the effects of imperfections are rarely fully thought through, and often far more time-consuming and error-prone than they should be.
FWIW, I was over-taxed by several hundred pounds after someone at a tax office mistyped my National Insurance number (for our US friends: like a SSN, but in the UK) by one character, and inadvertently merged me with someone on the far side of the country. The scary part wasn't so much that I lost some money for a while, but that the first time I knew about it was when my pay-cheque turned up short and I queried it with my employer's accountant; no-one thought to check with me that my status really had changed. Worse, it took three months chasing numerous tax officials and accountants in several offices to get it fixed, because they didn't believe I existed -- the linked computer records had automatically messed up all my identifying information and confused it with the other guy's.
If that could happen to me a couple of years ago, think what's going to happen when your whole life -- medical records, benefits payments, criminal record and "unofficial" black marks, etc. -- are all tied in to the uebersystem, and then that same human in that same office has to type the same hundreds of nine-digit codes perfectly every day.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
Could you site book, chapter, and verse, please? Or is this just Bible FUD?
Isn't that what happened at Jericho? If I recall, the entire population of the city was slaughtered (except for the prostitute and her folks...) once the walls fell down.
Slightly OT, but does place a precedent on mass-killing.
BTW, it was God who brought the walls down and commanded the killing. I wonder what the 4 year olds Jerichoans had done to upset God that much...
"Piter, too, is dead."
BTW, it was God who brought the walls down and commanded the killing. I wonder what the 4 year olds Jerichoans had done to upset God that much...
Well, four year olds can be extremely annoying and noisy. And as you know, God has a certain habit of resting on the seventh day of the week.
The metric is not popularity. It's bringing the most to technology. You don't need to be well-known to bring anything to the technological state of the world. For example, the average user doesn't know anything about Oracle or DB2. Chances are, though, that their money is tracked in one (or both) of these. Technologically, they are very important, but both would fail your popularity contest.
"people would be well advised to take this posting with a grain of salt"
Tell that to Lot's wife!
and my write in vote is Cowboy Neal!
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It is good to see that RMS made the rankings this year. But one odd thing is this:
I think it is important to remember that if it were not for RMS, Linus could not be on the list. RMS's influence cannot be understated, and most (if not all) of the freedoms currently associated with Linux were his ideas. He should have been on the list since its creation.In any case, more exposure for him means more freedom for me and everyone, so I am happy he has finally been recognized by this ranking.
All data is speech. All speech is Free.
I think the point is that God is actually evil, while Satan just encourages us to do whatever we want. What other reason is there for killing homosexuals and the like ? The whole book seems geared towards training people to tolerate injustice from those in power. That no doubt accounts for its popularity with leaders.
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