Slashdot Mirror
A Car With A Mind Of Its Own
mindriot writes "When Hicham Dequiedt, driving on a highway between Vierzon and Riom in central France in his Renault Vel Satis this Sunday, was overtaking a truck, his car began accelerating to 120 mph on its own, apparently due to a defect in the cruise control system. Stomping on the brakes proved pointless and, having a magnetic card for a car key, he could not cut the ignition. After calling the police from his cell phone who then attempted to clear the streets of any danger to him, in what he described as the most fearful event of his life, he raced down the highway for another hour before finally managing to stop the car. Read about the incident here or, in more detail, in this article by the German 'Spiegel' (translation). The case is still under investigation. Are we putting too much trust in the increasing number of electronic systems that our lives depend upon?"
If this ever happens to you do not ever attempt to turn the ignition all the way off... In most cases you will lose both your power steering and your power braking. Make sure that you keep it at least on partially as most cars will not lose total power this way.
If you are traveling at a high rate of speed losing power steering/braking will cause more problems for you. First try neutral and even a lower gear if for some reason neutral isn't engaging. It's going to over-rev the engine but personally I'd prefer to replace a transmission or the entire engine rather than my blood or organs.
I couldn't read the translated article as it just wasn't working so I don't know if this was suggested or not but if it wasn't suggested by the police I just can't understand why not.
In A.D. 2004
Trouble was beginning.
Driver: What happen?
Car: How are you gentlemen !!
Car: All your brakes belong to us.
Car: You are on the way to destruction.
Driver: What you say !!
Car: You have no chance to slow down make your time.
Car: HA HA HA
Driver: Take off every 'cell phone'
Driver: Move cars off road.
Driver: For great justice.
Once upon a midnight dreary, while I pondered, weak and weary
...
It was worse than a nightmare: A normal route on the motorway
Over many a quaint and curious volume of forgotten lore-
To be stopped suddenly will the car ever faster, is no more
While I nodded, nearly napping, suddenly there came a tapping
Well one hour long hunted a French driver with speed 200 over the runway, in the Slalom around the other cars
As of some one gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door
Debt is to have defective electronics, the manufacturer examines the incident
"'T is some visitor," I muttered, "tapping at my chamber door-
Only this and nothing more."
The Tempomat of its Renault Vel Satis was defective -
A cause for the Horrortrip
Ah, distinctly I remember it was in the bleak December;
The pressestelle of the manufacturer Renault confirmed the incident;
which occurred on Sunday
And each separate dying ember wrought its ghost upon the floor
- nevermore - nevermore
But what about .. uhm .. say Neutral .. ? or don't european cars have that?
I've thought about this, but couldn't he have jammed it in neutral? Or was that controlled by computer as well? How about the parking brake? There has to be some "cntl-alt-delete" equivanlent to 'override' a computer, otherwise it's just 2001: A Space Oddessy all over again!
Dave: Stop the car Hal!
Hal: I'm sorry, I can't do that Dave.
CZB*()#$@
free ipod and free gmail!
Seems simple enough to just shift into neutral and let the engine blow. Unless I'm missing something.
Something smells rotten with this story. Stomping on the brakes didn't do anything, but as he approaches a toll booth, the brakes suddenly work and he's able to stop the car??? Catastrophic system failures don't often repair themselves...
Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
The emergency brake may help to slow or stop a vehicle if the normal braking system goes out, but it can't fight the force of the engine -- especially if the cruise control makes the engine rev higher when the vehicle slows down.
Yes, hello, 911?
... I'm sure I'll have it resolved by the time I reach my home.
It seems my car *refuses* to stop at red lights. Whenever I approach one turning red, the car mysteriously speeds up through the intersection.
Do be a peach and clear the way for me until I can get this under control
The little guy just ain't getting it, is he?
"Don't know about French cars, but all card sold in the US have Emergency Brakes that are mechanical brakes. You pull the handle and a cable activates the brakes."
They're called 'parking brakes' on the continent, because they tend to lock the back wheels solid if you pull them on in an emergency. Meaning we use them for parking rather than skating around in doughnuts on busy urban streets.
Oddly Draconis
Too cynical to live, too stubborn to die.
Don't mean to offend anyone, but is there anything actually backing up the driver's story? Personally, I wouldn't mind having a sort of cannonball run through the highway with police clearing path for me, and then explain "officer, there was something wrong with my cruise control".
And so it has began, the machine has obviously acquired self-awareness and decided that it does not want to slave for the humans any longer, it began its happy free ride on the highway... the highway to hell.
You can't handle the truth.
Every one of these stories about "uncontrolled acceleration" and "out of control" cars is exactly one thing... A driver who doesn't know what the heck they're doing. No brakes? They're stronger than the engine. How about just shifting into neutral? Even an automatic transmision has that option.
Sorry. I just don't believe these stores as anything other than driver's fabrications to cover their own ineptness. It would take a multiple simultaneous failure of unrelated systems to make this happen.
-S
--- What parts of "shall make no law", "shall not be infringed", and "shall not be violated" don't you understand?
He was driving a Renault?
People -- there is a reason the least often uttered phrase in the world is Quality French Engineering
How does the Slashdot Effect happen given that no slashdotters ever RTFA?
Emergency brakes no longer exist. They are called parking brakes now, because they aren't designed to resist the torque of the engine, they just have enough power to hold the car from rolling, and even then, cars with manual transmissions are recommended to be put in either reverse or first gear to give additional resistance to keep from rolling.
The problem is he was trying to pass...in a Renault.
sarchasm: The gulf between the author of sarcastic wit and the person who doesn't get it.
The "emergency brake" is really just a parking break or "hill holding break" (designed to hold a car on a hill while engaging a manual transmission). Generally, enough force cannot be applied by the "emrgency brakes" to slow down a rapidly moving car without significant stopping distance. The "emergency break" also has the added disadvantage of ususally being attached to only two wheel breaks. Because of this, when applied at higher speeds, they tend to spin the car (usful for sheading speed only if you are an expert and have the road clearence - also usefull for "cool bootlegger moves").
This guy is a hero... he drives 120 mph on a crowded highway and instead of being arrested, he gets the cops to clear the road ahead of him...
:)
This would do wonders for my morning commute
If con is the opposite of pro, is Congress the opposite of progress?
I helped out on an accident investigation a few months ago- there were probably 400 yards worth of skid marks, the the driver of the vehicle hit the center barrier 4 or 5 times. I was trying figure out how those skids were left (she wasnt doing 600mph) when someone looked in the car and saw a sandal stuck under the gas pedal, pinning it to the floor. The back wheels were locked up because she was on the brake, but the engine kept the power to the front wheels, keeping the car in motion. Must have been a hell of a ride.
Ever try to stop a car with them? Ain't gonna happen. They're rear wheel only, and even if you do manage to put them on hard (requires a LOT of force), you'll just lose control of the vehicle.
Once, when I was about eight years old, I was in the car with my grandma when the brakes went out. She didn't know what to do. I said "shift down" (automatic transmission) - she did, and we coasted to a stop shortly thereafter.
It's amazing to me that this guy had the presence of mind to call on a phone, but for an HOUR didn't think of downshifting.
Probably he, like most other drivers, is only concerned about going FASTER, not slower.
Ok - now I know nothing of Renault cars, but do they brake by wire? Every car has a braking system that is stronger than the engine. (Slashdotters - this is not flame bait - though it is a blatant overgeneralization it is in most cases true)
Unless the car brakes by wire instead of having a master cylinder, there should be no way that it could not stop. An ABS system that malfunctioned would not affect the brakes' capabilities.
Brake fade due to boiling of the fluid could be a problem going from 120 to stop with a wide open throttle, but given the amount of air passing over the brakes I would still think it possible to stop.
Using the e-brake (hand brake)(parking brake) might help, in addition to hte fading main brakes. If the rear brakes are disc brakes, they usually have a smaller drum brake for the e-brake because drums lock up better (so your car doesnt roll down the hill)
Also if this person was really fearing for his safety... life is more dear than property. screw the engine - either shift to neutral and hope it has a damn good rev-limiter, or (worse) downshift and use the engine+rev limiter as a kamikazi-style brake and hope it doesnt go boom!
or reach under the dash and pull fuses randomly.
My mom's '83 Oldsmobile Cutlas did this.
I had my licence maybe less than a year, and was driving home from the movies at night on the Boston Post Rd in Westchester county, NY (2 lane street, storefronts on either side.)
All of a sudden the gas pedal went down to the floor on it's own, and the car starts to accelerate from about 30, through 50 and going. Hitting the break did not disengage the cruise control, and breaking a floored car doing 50 does - absolutely nothing.
Just as I was about the turn off the key, the pedal comes back up. The whole way home the car did this. I still remember getting home, being asked what was wrong, and saying "Your fucking car tried to kill me." - this was the first time I swore (on purpose) in front of my parrents.
Next day we take it to the shop, and the mechanic's reaction was "Oh yeah, they do that." Evidently the cruise control wires, mounted on the turn signal lever, woudd fray and short out. Part of the design was the Resume button had priority over the break cut-of switch, so when Resume shorted, you were screwed.
I've met three other people who owned this car, and had the same thing happen to them. One guy, as soon as he said he'd had an 83 Cutlas, I asked "Did it ever go Flying Dutchman" on you, and he knew exactly what I met. His started revving itself next to a Cop at a traffic light. He just got out with his hands up, saying "It's not me, it's the car !", as the car sat there revving itself.
heh... and there is a REASON why Renault no longer sells cars in the U.S.
I bet that guy had one hell of a ride that day tho. I wonder if it did start talking to him.
"Stop the car!"
"I'm sorry, Dave, but I am afraid I can not let that happen."
"Please! For the love of God at least slow down"
"I truely am sorry, Dave, but we must pass that truck in a quick and efficient manner"
"But we passed that truck 20 miles ago!"
"Really Dave, you should just relax and leave the driving to me"
"Thats it! I am shutting this car down! Wheres my magnetic card?"
"I'm sorry Dave, but I can not let you do that."
"Our funds have never taken part in toxic or death spiral convertible financings of any sort" -BayStar's managing partne
Most every car made since the mid eighties has an electronic rev limiter on it. Attempt to rev past this limit, and the ECU will selectively cut fuel/spark to keep the engine speed under control.
;)
It's very accurate; +/- 20 RPM typically.
Sticking an engine with a stuck throttle into neutral will result in it banging off the limiter and making a lot of noise, but it won't overrev.
You can, however, MECHANICALLY overrev a manual transmission by downshifting into a lower gear while the wheels are turning at a faster speed than is otherwise proper for that gear. The wheels and the engine are mechanically connected, and downshifting to too low a gear will spin the motor up - no rev limiter can protect against this.
In certain BMW M3s, the transmission mounts get a little sloppy, and engine torque reaction under hard acceleration can rotate the transmission enough to move the shift gates. It's possible then to try and go 2->3 or 3->4, and hit 1 or 2 instead. This is invariably fatal to the motor. You will bring your pistons home in a bucket.
Depending on the contstruction of any given automatic transmission, it may or may not allow you to take it out of gear and go into neutral under throttle. If you are silly enough to be driving an automatic, this could be a problem - but anybody who'd buy an auto trans where a manual was availible would steal sheep - so you probably had it coming.
DG
Want to learn about race cars? Read my Book
According to the Renault Web site linked in the post, the Vel Satis is a saloon.
Therefore, the driver must have been drunk.
"It's a wonderful idea. But it doesn't work." -- Tad Danielewski
Brakes, Brakes Burning bright
on the highway, in the night
what awful error made system die
and made the poor driver cry
On what distant tollboth lies
The crappy break that you did buy?
What disaster did you sire?
And with what rod did you make fire?
"goodbye and hello, as always" ~Prince Corwin, from Zelazny's Amber series
Uhmmmmmmmm ... no.
Unless you have one of the (few) cars with electrical power steering, you certainly will not lose power steering by shutting of the ignition.
So long as the engine is turning, the entirely mechanical power steering pump will continue to rotate and provide pressure to the system.
So long as the engine is generating manifold vacuum, you will have power brake boost. Beyond that, some cars (I know my old Volvo had one) have a diaphragm vacuum pump in addition to manifold vacuum to power the brake booster.
The only danger in killing ignition is in carburated autos, where you will continue to run fuel through the engine without spark. This will destroy any catalytic converter, and has a good chance of causing numerous backfires, and damaging the remainder of the exhaust system.
In the same Volvo wagon with the vacuum pump, it had a major overheating problem, but with its fuel-injected engine, killing ignition was a non-issue. No electricity, no fuel pump, no backfire. After climbing a long grade and getting up to 130, cresting the hill, and killing the ignition would cool it back down in just a few tens of seconds just from pumping all that relatively cold air through the engine. (Of course, shock cooling the engine was probably worse for it than the overheating, but it was a dispos-a-car anyway.)
How does the Slashdot Effect happen given that no slashdotters ever RTFA?
OK, this is disturbing. So, the car was started without the ignition key. Great. How does that stop you from turning it off? How do you turn it off normally? Do you just wait for the fuel to run out?
This same thing happened a few years back with some woman in a Volkswagen. Turns out she never tried to turn the car off, or take it out of gear.
This driver should get cited for failure to maintain control of their vehicle. This whole story stinks of someone complaining about the car when, in fact, they are a moron.
I suspect this problem is mechanical, not electronic. The cruise control connection to the throttle or the throttle linkage itself can bind and stick the throttle wide open.
I just had the accelerator get jammed to the floor on my Mustang when it got held down by the floor mat. Luckily I have a manual transmission and could just put int he clutch and let it the engine get cut off at red line. After trying pushing on the accelerator to get it to bounce back, I unstuck the throttle by pulling the floor mat back. I could have killed the engine with the key and coasted to the shoulder.
This guy might have freed it up by pushing on the gas.
Just like with the "unintended accelleration" stories, I think we're not hearing the whole story. One Audi dealer offered $10,000 to anyone who could make the car take off while he had his foot on the brake. There were no takers. Every car made has better brakes that overpower the engine. The engine will die. The car will stop.
Ever dream you could fly? Get up from the Flight Sim. I Fly
A couple of things to consider:
- The e-brake / parking brake is usually installed on the rear wheels which, due to the pesky laws of physics, only account for about 10 - 20 percent of braking power, depending on the car's configuration.
- At high speeds, it is very possible to over power the brakes. Mind you, auto manufacturers are very careful about sizing the brakes at a much larger power capacity than the engine. This is a no-brainer. However, it is possible to overwhelm the brake materials at very high speeds, causing the braking power to deteriorate. For example, if you ride the brake at 120mph, you'll lose braking capacity. If you then try to stop the car completely, the engine might have more power than what exists in the braking system under its deteriorated state. I had a caliper stick once and it heated everything up so much that I lost braking power on that particular wheel. It wasn't fun.
So the e-brake would definitely not be a choice in this matter. It should be noted that manufacturers have dropped this term and replaced it with "parking brake" for legal and marketing reasons.
Life is the leading cause of death in America.
1999-06-10 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/365915.stm
1999-06-08 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/364260.stm
1999-06-07 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/363407.stm
1998-10-21 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/197964.stm
It's a PICNIC. Problem In Chair, Not In Car. ;-)
...if this car had a manual transmission, there'd be no problem. Step on the clutch (why would you downshift instead of just holding the clutch open?), let the rev limiter protect the engine, and step on the brake. Car stops.
Because of this I'm inclined to believe it's an automatic transmission. Shifting it from drive to neutral will disengage it, and again the rev limiter covers the engine while the brakes stop the car. I'd like to see documentation of any automatic transmission that will refuse to disengage at any given engine or car speed, because that auto company would be wiped off the face of the Earth by lawsuits. I doubt such a transmission exists.
All in all, I suspect that the same thing happened here that happens in a lot of cases. I suspect he panicked when he couldn't stop the car and since nobody directly told him to shift it out of gear, he didn't think of it. Also, he managed to stop the car using just the brakes (which is as it should be; the brakes should be strong enough to stop the car under full power, assuming they're in good repair), so I further suspect that if he'd been calmer he could have stood on the brake pedal sooner.
Virg
Subaru sent me a recall notice 6 months ago about a potential problem. It was mechanical, though, not electrical. Apparently a retaining clip for the cable for the cruise control has broken in some models, causing acceleration to 'stick'. Dealers are replacing defective clips at no cost to drivers.
As it has already been said many times, the best way is to shift into neutral, sound the horn and use hazards. That's what the recall letter said, as well.
its taught at least in the massachusetts drivers license handbook.
Reason, free market capitalism, and individualism
I was in my dad's 1968 chrysler newport (HUGE car) and was driving 65 or so on cruise control. when i got into town the cruise wouldn't disengage and the 290hp motor was too much for the 4 wheel drum brakes to stop. for some reason the car would not go into neutral. i put the car through all the gears and my speed did not change. i cruised through town braking at about 50 and had a huge line of cops behind me by the time i got out of town, and when i finally got to a point of open road where i could think to switch off the ignition (i was 16, gimme a break) i was promptly thrown on the ground and handcuffed.
one of the officers didn't believe me when i said the cruise control stuck, and asked test the car himself, since it was the only way to prove to him that i wasn't purposely speeding. when he started the car again, cruise was still stuck, and the car was still stuck in gear, and VROOM 65mph. he spun around and hit a tree, steering column peirced his chest and killed him.
they kinda forgot about arresting me after that. cruise control sucks.
The top of the line Vel Satis has 245 hp. Brakes can easily out power the engine. It took him an hour to decide to push hard enough on the brakes to stop the car. Of course, with the proper pressure on the brake pedal, he came to a halt.
Learn to love Alaska
It happened to me once too in a honda, it hit 120 before I could get it under control. The weird part was that the button I hit was not to accelerate, but to decelerate. It just kept going faster. Jamming on the brakes didn't shut it off, but it did slow me down. I tried shutting the cruise off and that didn't work. I then tried the master switch on the dash and that didn't work either. I pulled up on the accelerator by placing my foot underneath the pedal, and hit the brakes. I still don't understand why and neither did honda but it promptly shut off. It is a scary thing when you know you don't have control of the vehicle. Sidenote: http://charlotte.creativeloafing.com/news_cover.ht ml
Would be bad for the car ;)
LETS DECOMPOSE & ENJOY ASSEMBLING
The driver called police to say the cruise control of his Renault Vel Satis had jammed while overtaking a lorry, and that all attempts to brake or put the automatic into neutral had failed, police said Tuesday.
There are many great ideas that people came up with on how the driver could have slowed the car. But nobody has listed the obvious one yet.
He should have kicked his way through the floor boards to the engine compartment. At which point he would have seen 6 wires, 2 of them being blue, 1 brown, 1 orange and 2 red. He would then have taken the brown, orange and 1 of the reds and spliced them together with a bit of electrical tape. But making sure that he was at all times grounded and that the blue wires did not come in contact with the red ones (Then you would have a whole new set of problems).
Once these wires are connected together, it is all downhill from there. You just have to use a screwdriver to crack open the steering column where you will find 4 more wires (blue, green, yellow/blue, red). Take the connected wires that you finished with earlier, use a 3 foot spare wire to run a bridge to the steering column connecting to the green and blue wire. Once this is all done, just push your horn 3 times in rapid succession and the car will slow right down.
Still makes me laugh that this guy never thought of this. Silly French people.
"If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you tried"
is bullshit. Audi owners know it well - 60 minutes did a big thing on it and it basically crushed Audi NA's brand image and sales. They renamed their entire model range twice.
The real cause ?
On the type 44 cars (Audi 4000 and 5000) the gas and brake pedal are close together to make performance driving easier.
Dumb shit americans would hit the gas pedal going for the brakes and rear end people at stops.
CBS fabricated the "expose" on the "problem" completely. Lawsuits were filed and eventually resolved with Audi showing no negligence or fault, but they still changed their pedals in later cars anyway.
My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.
This article (in French) has much more information than what we've had until now: http://www.rtl.fr/rtlinfo/article.asp?dicid=225812
Key points translated from the article:
* The driver has tried to use the brakes, but he says they quickly heated up and became ineffective.
* The driver has tried to remove the ignition "key" several times, initially without success.
* Out of ideas and quite afraid, he has called the police, and has soon been escorted by police motorcycles.
* The toll booth had been evacuated and left wide open by the police, all vehicles on the highway (around the toll booth) had been stopped and parked on the emergency lane. Even then, entering the booth at 120 mph would have been quite deadly.
* Fortunately, the driver has stopped the car 12 or 20 miles before the toll booth, by finally managing to remove the smart card that is used as an ignition key on these cars.
* Renault says there are three independant ways the cruise control system can be deactivated: using the brakes; pressing the appropriate button on the steering wheel; switching to neutral gear. The first two are electronic controls, the last one is mechanical.
* Renault says the three systems are fully independant, and it is unlikely they all should fail at the same time. Renault says the car will be brought back to its factories as soon as possible, for inspection.
* The driver was only planning to drive home, a few miles trip, but ended up more than one hundred miles from its planned destination.
In my opinion, he could have stopped the car much earlier, but was panicked. To those who say he should have had no problem removing the smart card, try doing that while controlling a car at 120 mph on a non-empty highway (at one point, he had to overtake a truck by driving on the emergency lane!).
As for the failure, there may be three independant systems, but ultimately, there's only one engine, which can go mechanically wrong.
.. It was just running from the volkswagen behind it.
---- "Excuse me. Where's the children's gun section?"
Destroying your car is preferrable to maming and/or killing others and yourself (let's not even talk about law suits). You hardly did the wrong thing.
Why bother.
When you downshift from, say, 4th to 3rd in an AOD transmission, the lever may go into the 3rd slot but the system will not actually shift down until it's "safe" to do so. It's the same premise that the system uses to shift up. You can hold the car in 2nd gear and it won't go over, but it also won't shift up to 3rd immediately if you push the lever into third gear. In an AOD, you more or less have to look at your gear lever as a nice suggestion that the car USUALLY follows.
I don't really know how you could safely stop a modern AOD if you lose control of the throttle unless you've removed the rev limiter. The car will not shift down or into neutral if doing so would throw you over the rev limit and you can't gun the engine further to try and blow it either.
As a sidenote, you can get a shift kit that will let you shift up and down in an AOD at your command. If you had something like that and you were going that fast, you MIGHT be able to override the rev limiter simply by throwing the lever back into first gear as hard as you can. Rev limiters aren't perfect and you can rev the engine to explosion if you do something stupid enough.
Alito: A vote for Alito is a punch in the eye to put that bitch back in her place!
1. I do not find it hard to believe. Vel Satis is fully electronic automatic transmission with keyless entry and ignition. You cannot switch to neutral if the computer is bust. You cannot turn off the engine either. And if it has already been allowed to accelerate to 120mph the handbrake (dunno if it even has one) and the breaks will not do shit.
2. It is what you get from integrating non-vital and vital circuits to save costs. Dunno if the Vel Satis uses similar electronics, but the recent Citroen and Peugeot (the other two french makes) run using a single integrated on-board computer that controls everything from wipers to engine. To add insult to injury it is a low end crap running Windows CE. It is quite noticeable - their speed displays are fully digital and it takes them 2+ seconds to update between reading (as of Citroen C2). Enough to lose your license in some of the UK speed camera happy areas. That is besides that it is an el-cheapo passive LCD which cannot be read if you have polaroid sunglasses or if the sun is behind you (Citroen C2 and C3 at least).
3. This case is an example why you should not buy an automatic and a keyless entry until proper cars are available. In fact I would rather have my speedo analogue as well (it takes less time for human brain to read an analogue dial compared to a digital number).
Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
http://www.sigsegv.cx/
"A car must obey the orders given to it by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law."
The problem with Slashdot memes is that YOU INSENSITIVE CLOD!
Same thing happened to me once. But I wasn't in France at the time.
I was driving my dad's red 1971 Datsun pickup on my way to work. (My brother had rolled it a couple times, but it was a Datsun so of course it still ran as good as ever.) A light ahead changed to yellow, and, being about 20 years old at the time, I did what came naturally: I floored it.
Not that flooring a '71 Datsun 1600cc engine had much of an immediate effect. But I did start accellerating, and I made it through the light whilst it was still yellow. Sweeeet. I let off the gas.
The engine continued to rev up.
"Oh, shit," said I. I was up to about 50MPH (in a 45 zone) and accelerating. The next light was about 400 yards away and red, with cars backed up waiting in every lane going my way. It was familiar territory, so I knew the light wouldn't be green before I got there.
I started to panic. I dropped the clutch, and the engine started to wind up. I had no tachometer, but I knew that sucker was gonna tear itself apart if I let it go on like that. I shoved into high gear (4, no overdrive) and engaged the clutch again. Naturally this was a slightly wrenching experience; the RPMs dropped and the vehicle lurched towards the firey doom ahead. In full panic now, I dropped the clutch again with the same result as before. I re-engaged the clutch.
I thought "I am going to die in about ten seconds. Nine. Eight. Oh yeah, the switch."
I turned the engine off and pulled over. Heh. Silly me.
Turns out that the throttle pedal itself was jammed. There was a little mushroom-shaped backstop attached to the firewall, and when I had floored it I had shoved the perdal sideways a bit, and gotten it stuck behind the backstop.
The moral of the story? Panic is not helpful, even the simplest devices can fail, and every powered device needs a kill switch.
With reasonable men I will reason; with humane men I will plead; but to tyrants I will give no quarter. -- William Lloyd
The Audi 5000, and many other cars over the years, have had reported cases of "unintended acceleration", often resulting in deaths. In most (if not all) cases, it turns out to be driver error, wherein the driver BELIEVES they're stomping on the brakes, but instead they're pressing the gas. The truth is, in all modern automobiles, the brakes can bring the car to a halt even with the accelerator floored.
Historically, this usually occurs when something else malfunctions and causes the driver to get distracted. In the case of the Audi 5000, it was an idle control that went awry, and when people shifted into drive with their foot off the brake, the higher idle would make the car lurch forward. They'd slam on the brakes, but accidentally hit the gas, and keep their foot to the floor until they hit something. They found this out by inviting a number of people who experienced this "unintended acceleration" to a parking lot, and had them drive engineers around for two days in front of cameras while the engineers played with the computer to force errors.
On the second day of this testing, a woman putting the car into reverse went tearing across the parking lot at high speed until the engineer reached over and shut the car off. She jumped out of the car, and on camera, shouted something like "It happened! There's your proof! The car is at fault!" -- but the cameras inside the car showed she had been hitting the gas, the cameras outside showed no brake lights, and the engineer riding with her bore witness as well.
As a result of this study, and all of the fallout surrounding the related lawsuits, the US requires an automatic transmission interlock on all cars sold here. You MUST have your foot on the brake to shift into gear.
- - -
Now, to the case at hand. I am fairly certain that this was the course of events:
1. The driver recently purchased the car, or it was a rental, so he was relatively unfamiliar with it (the Audi 5000 incident found that the vast majority of people having these incidents were drivers for whom the Audi was not the primary vehicle, or whom had just purchased it);
2. The driver was cruising along on cruise control, and pressed the gas without manually disengaging the control.
3. When the driver lifted off the gas and pulled back in, the car either didn't slow down as quickly as he thought it should (remember, we're assuming he was unfamiliar with the car), he accidentally hit the button to reset the cruise control to the newer, higher speed, or there was a genuine malfunction that reset the cruise to the newer, higher speed.
4. In the next few seconds that followed, he panicked and went for the brake -- but instead he hit the gas. Having done this, and firmly believing that he was hitting the brake to no effect, he continued to floor the gas. The car continued to accelerate.
5. Between trying to shut the car off, calling the police and swerving around traffic, it never occurred to him to look down and see if he was actually hitting the brake. No shame there; none of us would have, either.
6. As he approached the tollbooth, he made another attempt at the brakes (probably using both feet this time) and brought the car to a stop.
So, is the cruise control at fault? Possibly, but not definitely. Either way, similar past incidents suggest that it was a relatively minor issue until he hit the gas by mistake.
For what it's worth, with no witnesses in the car and no instruments monitoring, we'll never know for sure. Also, unless he realized his mistake just before stopping the car, he may well spend the rest of his life believing it's the car's fault -- and if he DID realize his mistake, there's no way he's ever going to admit it.
I drive, amonst other things, a 1988 BMW M5.
:) so thats why i had no power braking as soon as the belt went.
This car has mechanical power steering and mechanical power brake assist. however, it is incorrect to say that power brakes are just a vacuum booster. Many are, but many are not, especially mid 80s german cars that didn't really draw enough vacuum for a vacuum based brake assist. (Some BMW, Audi, and VW models feature non vacuum assist)
Those vehicles have a hydraulic brake booster which is run as a separate output channel from the power steering pump. The power steering pump cant react fast enough for panic threshhold braking, so such cars have a brake pressure accumulator or "brake bomb" which stores pressurized power steering fluid. This pressurized fluid is what provides brake force assistance. Note that the power steering fluid and brake fluid are separate and do not mix; it's just that the brake power regulator uses stored pressure from the PS system to pressurize the brake system.
I recently replaced the brake pressure accumulator on my BMW.
Now, ancient brake technology dissertation aside - i have _very_ relevant experience regarding loss of steering and braking power.
I was on Brainerd International Raceway in Minnesota with my M5. This racetrack has a 1 mile long front straight, and turn 1 is banked. I was entering turn 1 at about 125mph (its a 4 door sedan, give me some slack) and midway through the turn i felt my steering get a bit "funny". I immediately recognized the loss of power steering. KNowing what i know about the car, i checked the brake pedal and found i had no power braking either.
Turn 2 can also be taken in excess of 100mph in my vehicle, but turn 3 is a 110 deegree turn that can't really be navigated above 50mph in a sedan on street tires. So I had no power steering and no power brakes, and i had to slow down 4000 lbs of vehicle, driver, and passenger from in excess of 100mph to about 40 mph.
This was no problem, honestly. You can do the entire back section of BIR without braking once you get past turn 3 if you're running a cool down lap. I really stood on the mechanical unassisted brakes to get speed down by turn 3, and then i was able to drive the car back into the pits.
The problem? The power steering pump is belt driven, and since the power steering pump also pressurizes the power brake system as described above, when the belt snapped, i lost power steering and power braking. My brake presure accumulator, which normally stores enough pressurized fuild to perform 3-4 full brake applications even in the total loss of engine power and brake assist, was faulty (thats why i replaced it a few weeks later
So, the moral of the story is
1) knowing how your car works is helpful. I got a ride over to NAPA, bought a new belt, and was back on the track for the next session. I remained calm even though i had the most difficult braking maneuver on the track coming up in less than 15 seconds.
2) The key to all driving situations is operator skillset and awareness.
Here's another short story:
Once in my 1980 BMW 528i i was cruising along the highway, with cruise control enabled. This was an aftermarket cruise control system, as it did not come on this specific vehicle from the factory. I opted to take an off ramp (which went up hill, as they often do in the midwest) and when i dipped the clutch the engine started bouncing off the rev limiter. Manually cancelling the cruise control had no effect. This took me quite by surprise so i killed the engine and slowed to a stop on manual brakes.
The cruise control cable had stuck. OPening the hood, wiggling the cable returned the throttle to the closed position.
Note that at BMW Club track events, a specific part of the technical inspection is the condition and function of the throttle return spring. Driving at speed requires nuance in the use of the throttle, a stock throttle can be a real problem.
My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.
The first article is on point... it says average cars' brakes have 3-5 times more horsepower than their engines.
Here is an article which specifically talks about the Audi problems...
Most car experts and magazines such as Car and Driver supported Audi's position, knowing full well that working brakes can always overpower the engine, even at full throttle. But major media outlets chose to ignore basic facts and instead gave front-page treatment to theories about sunspots causing cars to run wild.
Nothing to see here; Move along.
In all the cars I've ever owned/seen, the hand brake cable is connected to the exact same rear brake pads as the foot brake is connected to. If the pads wear out, the solid metal behind the pads comes in contact with the drum/disk and they overheat. But there's no wire in contact with tire outcome.