Ukraine Holds 4th Largest Programmer Population

andrewuoft points out this BusinessWeek article on the budding technology sector of Ukraine; the article points out that Ukraine has -- "after the U.S., India, and Russia -- the fourth largest number of computer programmers in the world" and that "Even today, scientific institutes each year churn out some 50,000 science or technology graduates. Not surprisingly, Ukrainians don't see why their country can't become a big player in the global technology market, like India."

Comments

Great...

[BJZQ8]

ANOTHER place to outsource US jobs!

Re:Great...

[Anonymous Coward]

But I thought competition was good? That's what Slashdot told me.

Re:Great...

[Anonymous Coward]

On the other hand, it's also ANOTHER place to get experienced programmers to write open-source software like GNU/Linux...

Re:Great...

[Anonymous Coward]

In fact, Slashdot ran a recent article about the shortage of open-source expertise...

Eh0d THREW MY PENIS INTO THE WALL!

[eh0d is my daddy]

WTF eh0d, why must you throw so much h8 at me???

hah!

[KingPunk]

first post!

Re:hah!

[KingPunk]

bah, i suck. im a slut.
i think im going to make a perl script
that will make me have the 1st post, in EVERY artice, topic.
..i wonder how much bandwidth it'll use. ;x
peace, -kingpunk

Re:hah!

[Anonymous Coward]

New here?

Correlation?

[l810c]

4th largest Geek Population?

Maybe this would explain why there seem to be so many Hot, Available Ukrainian Women looking to get out.

Re:Correlation?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, are you looking to buy?

Re:Correlation?

[hajihill]

I was thinking that the correlation would be that the Ukraine would have the fourth highest rate of unemployment in the world....

But some might find this joke in bad taste... like much of Africa. (link)

No offense intended.

Re:Correlation?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey, who modded this funny? Have you check that link? (+1 Informative)!

--dhj

Re:Correlation?

[Drakonian]

Holy shit, those women are hot! Is this stuff for real? If my life is still this pathetic in 10 years...

Re:Correlation?

[Anonymous Coward]

Spoken like a true Geek :)

Re:Correlation?

[Anonymous Coward]

Truism: hot babes - no matter where they are from - don't stay married to guys with pathetic lives.

Re:Correlation?

[randall_burns]

The Ukraine is quite simply desperate for foreign currency. From what I know of the Ukraine, they are _well_ on the way to getting into a reasonable trade situation-which is more than I can say for the spoiled politicians and investors running the US and generating a $0.5 trillion annual trade deficit.

Re:Correlation?

[ConceptJunkie]

Yes, it is. My brother-in-law married a young lady from Russia and she's really good-looking.

That's my wife's brother, BTW. I'm not saying my sister is from Russia.

Unfortunately, it's not working out too well yet because Natalya has had some unreasonably high expectations with regard to material wealth, but she's a nice person, and did I mention, she's HOT. We're all hoping things improve.

Re:Correlation?

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps your idiotic and sexist comment would explain why you are such an expert on sites that market Eastern European women like cheap beef? Perhaps now would be the time to stop playing with yourself?

Re:Correlation?

[RWerp]

I don't think many countries have worse rulers than Ukraine has at the moment... look at the CNN and see how they falsified the elections.

FP

[Anonymous Coward]

w00t!

Virus Programmers

[eh0d is my daddy]

32% of all viruses come from Ukraine. It's too bad that they can't use their talents for good...

Bunch of Ukranian script kiddies.

P.S. Don't call it "The Ukraine", that makes them angry. Call it "Ukraine". You don't call Europe "the Europe", it is just Europe.

Re:Virus Programmers

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, but we say "the Piedmont" and "the Rockies" and "the Dakotahs" and "the North Slope" to name a few.

Ukrainians telling us how to speak English is just another example of the hyper-sensitive Eastern European inferiority complex.

Re:Virus Programmers

[ak3ldama]

In the case of "the Dakotahs", it is correct to use this reference, since the Dakotas refers to both North and South Dakota. this term "the Dakotas" originates from when the location was a territory known as the Dakota Territory. The name of Dakota Territory came from the large group of Dakota, Lakota, and Nakota Indians from the region. The term "the Dakotas" is fairly accurate, since the general layout, topography, and climate is fairly similar between the two states.

By the way, South Dakota is a big tourist location for a reason, the geography has much to offer, from the rolling planes, to the Badlands (desert), to the Black Hills. (Also of note: The Black Hills hold significant religious value to the Dakota Native Americans.)

more info here: Wikipedia on the term Dakotas

Re:Virus Programmers

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually it's "Teh Ukraine"

Re:Virus Programmers

[CRCulver]

Yes, but we say "the Piedmont" and "the Rockies" and "the Dakotahs" and "the North Slope" to name a few. Ukrainians telling us how to speak English is just another example of the hyper-sensitive Eastern European inferiority complex.

You can stick to saying "the Ukraine" all you want, but most travel guides, wire services, government publications, and academic works written over the last ten years already just say "Ukraine". Have fun living in an anachronistic world.

Corruption

[Anonymous Coward]

The Ukraine needs to overcome its heavy post-Soviet corruption first before it can grow tech businesses. (It's doing that, but progress is still needed)

Re:Corruption

[luvirini]

Well, the fact is, corruption is a matter of fact in large parts of the world.

India is among the quite corrupt contries, like number 90 of 146 in the Transparency International Corruption Perceptions Index 2004 http://www.transparency.org/cpi/2004/cpi2004.en.ht ml#cpi2004

So corruption it itself does not seem to be able to stop tech-business, though Ukraine is way lower at #122.

Re:Corruption

[Anonymous Coward]

For those reading the table, realize that the lower the rank, the higher the corruption. The score is on a scale of 1 to 10, with countries leaning towards 10 being the least corrupt. Nigeria, with a rank of 144, is one of the most corrupt. Finland, with a rank of 1, is the least corrupt of all according to this data.

In regards to the topic at hand, the Ukraine is a very criminally influenced country. I have a number of contacts in the Ukraine and they're all trying to get out before they drown in the country's corruption. One reason Russian/Ukranian/other Eastern European women are willing to do the "mail order bride" thing is to get out of their respective countries and go somewhere with less criminal activity. A would-be bride said that a rich, successful husband in Russia or the Ukraine doesn't last very long, so she'd rather marry someone stable from the US and live there. It's sad, but it's no different people from Mexico hopping the US-Mexican border to the US for a better life.

Re:Corruption

[Anonymous Coward]

So corruption it itself does not seem to be able to stop tech-business, though Ukraine is way lower at #122.

You realize that the list is in ascending order, right (least corrupt to most)?

Re:Corruption

[bcrowell]

I think there's a qualitative difference between types of corruption in India and the former Soviet countries. My wife has a friend who's has worked as a journalist in Russia and Czech Republic, and a big reason for the move from Russia to C.R. was that in Russia the government and gangsters (not entirely separate categories) make a practice of killing journalists who annoyed them.

Globalization

[FiReaNGeL]

With the economical globalization these days, the trend (strategy?) for some countries seem to overspecialize in one specific area (in this case, IT) to outperform competition on a worldwide scale. Risky for sure, but it seems to work right now (at least for India, who reap the profits of investing massively in IT).

Re:Globalization

[Anonymous Coward]

Ukraine having the 4th largest programmer population is like Iraq having the 4th largest army in the world. After the first three, there's a big fucking drop-off!

Re:Globalization

[Tablizer]

some countries seem to overspecialize in one specific area (in this case, IT) to outperform competition on a worldwide scale. Risky for sure, but it seems to work right now

With our newfound IT dependence on India as a nation (US), imagine the termoil generated by a nuclear war between India and Pakistan. The tech centers of India are probably the top targets of Pakistan war planners. And, Pakistan is a power-keg of fundimentalism and India-haters inches from going off.

For example, the moderate prime-minister was close to being assassinated about a ago IIRC. Next time the radicals may not miss. The north is full of Bin Laden fans.

India is high on the list of Nations Most Likely to get Nuked. (Unfortunately, the US is also up there.)

Re:Globalization

[krymsin01]

I have to agree that the India/Paki situation is going to get worse over the next ten years. However, I don't think that Pakistan (as a country) is going to specificly target IT call centers. Terrorists, perhaps. That'd make sense. The Pakistani army would just nuke the whole damn place and be done with it.

Re:Globalization

[Anonymous Coward]

Just so you know, shortening "Pakistani" to "Paki" is a derogatory term in some countries.

Re:Globalization

[Tablizer]

However, I don't think that Pakistan (as a country) is going to specificly target IT call centers.

Generally you target both military and economic centers.

Terrorists, perhaps. That'd make sense.

If they knew where the terrorists were, they would not wait for nukes. Or, did you mean that the terrorists in charge would nuke economic centers?

Re:Globalization

[HiThere]

I think that he was implying that it would be sensible for terrorist organizations to target tech-support centers. Nukes probably wouldn't be necessary, but they are reported to make a spectacular EMF spike, so you could use them against a nearby target and take out the call center as a side effect. A two-fer.

OTOH, it's much easier for terrorists to get other kinds of weapons, and tech support centers don't need that kind of specialized attack, so I consider it quite unlikely that a nuke would primarily be aimed at a tech support center.

(Now an army...that's a different matter. For one thing, they don't have the same scarcity of resources.)

Re:Globalization

[Anonymous Coward]

In Soviet Ukraine, Division Of Labour rules YOU! ;-)

Re:Globalization

[timeOday]

I think that he was implying that it would be sensible for terrorist organizations to target tech-support centers.

Well, I think (or at least hope) he was saying that basing your economy on one thing is risky because individual fields go up and down (as we techies well know). Forget terrorism and nukes. Normal economic factors will play havoc with an economy based on one sector.

IN SOVIET UKRAINE...

[w9ofa]

JOBS OUTSOURCE YOU!

I rolled 6 sixes!

[bestadvocate]

Maby the US should take it over, holding Ukraine with the middle east gives you border crontrol for ether taking over Europe or Asia.

after all the best way to keep the jobs in the US is to take um all over anyway.

Re:I rolled 6 sixes!

[Anonymous Coward]

They have terrorists and/or oil don't they? Hey that just might work!

Re:I rolled 6 sixes!

[bestadvocate]

It doesnt matter, the red already knocked the blue off the West, now all they have to do is moblize.

and like every crappy risk player they are going to spend all their armies taking over stuff they cant hold.

Re:I rolled 6 sixes!

[Anonymous Coward]

The US certainly has the military power to take over a lot of countries, but it hasn't done it. Sure, the US invades countries from time to time when there's a perceived threat, or to stop genocide, or to prevent civil war, etc. But in the end, the US never "takes" anything even though it could. The last thing the US took was Kingman Reef in 1922. There wasn't a war over it. It's an unpopulated 1 sq km land mass in the Pacific Ocean. Most of it is under water.

Re:I rolled 6 sixes!

[Guppy06]

"But in the end, the US never "takes" anything even though it could."

Except, you know... half of Mexico.

Of course, we only took the unpopulated half, because we didn't want all those Mexicans in our country. The parts that we took that were popluated had to wait until the majority of the people living there (or at least the territorial government) were white and spoke English before they were allowed statehood, kind of like Hawaii only not quite as ugly/blatant.

Re:I rolled 6 sixes!

[cybpunks3]

--
Of course, we only took the unpopulated half, because we didn't want all those Mexicans in our country.
--

Well, speaking as a Californian, I can say that Mexico has already repopulated the area we "took".

Re:I rolled 6 sixes!

[Ohreally_factor]

Speaking as a fellow Californian, you're full of shit. California was never "emptied" of Mexicans. Hispanic people have lived continuously in California since the days when the missions were founded.

What's funny is that most of the anti-immigration people are probably descendants of the Oakies, the refugees from the dust bowl. I guess being poor white trash isn't so bad when you have someone you can treat like a nigger.

Re:I rolled 6 sixes!

[ZenFu]

"But in the end, the US never "takes" anything even though it could." Except, you know... half of Mexico.

The USA did not "take" anything from Mexico. Mexico used to be associated California, et al, but Mexico seceded from the western half of North America over the issue of joining the USA. Please check your facts next time. :)

Re:I rolled 6 sixes!

[Guppy06]

"The USA did not "take" anything from Mexico."

Not familiar with the Mexican-American War, are we?

"Mexico seceded from the western half of North America over the issue of joining the USA."

It looks like you're talking about California and Texas, whose white, English-speaking population suddenly decided they wanted to be Americans (again), similar to what happened in Hawaii. They both became states practically overnight, while other parts of Mexican lands ceded to the US that didn't have so many American transplants (such as Arizona and New Mexico) had to wait until the early Twentieth Century before statehood. Even Mormon Utah was admitted before them.

The US Army occupied most of Mexico's key cities including its capital by the time the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo was signed. The Mexicans were also dealing with a cesession of states in the Yucatan that was partly supported by American filibusters (the original meaning of the word). Mexican independence today relied perhaps less on Mexican unity and the Mexican military than it did on the US Senate (who had to ratify the treaty), including such powerful senators as John C. Calhoun:

(W)e have never dreamt of incorporating into our Union any but the Caucasian race--the free white race. To incorporate Mexico, would be the very first instance of incorporating an Indian race; for more than half of all the Mexicans are Indians, and the other is composed chiefly of mixed tribes. I protest against a union as that! (...) The greatest misfortunes of Spanish America are to be traced to the fatal error of placing these colored races on an equality with the wite race...

If we're ever going to make good on the ideals of the American Revolution we first have to accept the mistakes of the past instead of denying they happened.

Re:I rolled 6 sixes!

[ZenFu]

Not familiar with the Mexican-American War, are we?

There was an emoticon - I was kidding. But the Calhoun speech makes for an interesting note.Thanks!

Re:I rolled 6 sixes!

[Anonymous Coward]

What for you say Ukraine is weak? You think Ukraine is game?

Too bad the slashbots didn't get your joke. I thought it was hilarious.

Re:I rolled 6 sixes!

[ZenFu]

Who modded my comment interesting? I trying being sarcastic, not interesting or insightful - which I typically fail at anyway.

In the future, I think I'll try to avoid sarcasm on slashdot.

Supposedly, on a tour of the Texas capital one of the guide's informed her elementary school aged group that "Mexico used to be a part of Texas". I always thought that was sorta funny and was sorta the original source of my sorta funny attempt at humor that I sorta tried to make.

Re:I rolled 6 sixes!

[annenk38]

Yeah, and I suppose the entire continental US automatically came into possession of some polgrims from the Mayflower? And I guess the Philippines, Hawaii, Puerto Rico, Cuba and Panama were a real threat to our way of life?

Re:I rolled 6 sixes!

[Zorilla]

Oakies? You mean Okies, right? I think Oakland would scare the shit out of most Oklahomans.

Quality Not Quantity

[derEikopf]

What the future of technology needs more than anything is the reversal of the quantity philosophy. More is not always better.

Re:Quality Not Quantity

[yobbo]

And it's entirely possible that feeding nuclear radiation into people's skulls has breeded a race of super programmers.

Re:Quality Not Quantity

[Anonymous Coward]

And it's entirely possible that feeding nuclear radiation into people's skulls has breeded a race of super programmers.

I'd say its bred a generation of people unable to conjugate a verb.

Re:Quality Not Quantity

[BorkBorkBork6000]

No, but more is almost always cheaper. It's an open market, which means the most efficient get the richest.

Re:Quality Not Quantity

[plopez]

I believe it was Stalin who said 'Quantity has a quality all its own'. How that applies to IT (vs military might), I am not sure but it seeems an appropriate qoute.

Re:Quality Not Quantity

[Tablizer]

...reversal of the quantity philosophy. More is not always better.

That is what I kept trying to convince myself of with regard to dates in college to justify my low count.

Re:Quality Not Quantity

[Anonymous Coward]

it's

Re:Quality Not Quantity

[Anonymous Coward]

That doesn't explain why so many Ukrainians died of starvation on his watch. Anything that opens Ukraine up to the west and loosens the Kremlins grip has got to be good.

Re:Quality Not Quantity

[HiThere]

Actually it does. You just need to understand his motives.

By demonstrating a quantity of ruthlessness, he caused many opposing him to hide. (Which may be why he ended up assassinated rather than overthrown.)

Re:Quality Not Quantity

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you sure it wasn't Brigham Young who said that?

Re:Quality Not Quantity

[GuniGuGu]

..how will this *not* make the history books (+-1k years) for being outrageous but true

hold on

[DNS-and-BIND]

I wouldn't think that emulating India is really the way to go. The entire economic output of India is less than the state of Illinois. In addition, India's call center business is almost 100% U.S. customers. Ukraine has some, ahem, moral issues that make it politically difficult for American companies to outsource there.

Re:hold on

[Creepy Crawler]

Moral issues? Care to explain?

Re:hold on

[bestadvocate]

Thats the real problem with outsourcing jobs anyway.
the basic inequality of rights and responcebility

wouldent it be nice if we held international corporations to provide the same level of economic and humanitarian funding outside the country, and taxed the pajamas out of importers that don't

bye bye wallmart :*(

Re:hold on

[Anonymous Coward]

A lot of huge countries would kill to have the economy of Illinois.

Shit, in 4 years maybe all of America will be wishing they could have that.

Re:hold on

[arbi]

India will always have a natural advantage over countries like Russia and Ukraine in terms of American IT outsourcing because they can speak English.

Re:hold on

[Anonymous Coward]

Ukraine has some, ahem, moral issues that make it politically difficult for American companies to outsource there.

So what!? Large multinational companies are amoral in nature, they don't give a shit about "moral issues", only about profit and the bottom line.

Re:hold on

[mnmn]

They can?

Re:hold on

[tftp]

Is there any law of physics that stops everyone else from learning English? If you don't know already, Indian English is not any better than Polish English, for example. Indians often use a writing style totally alien to western literature and to western readers.

Re:hold on

[Anonymous Coward]

I actually prefer the Eastern European Engrish to the Indian Engrish, myself. The accent is more understandable.

Re:hold on

[Anonymous Coward]

Not exactly sure what he means by that, India has loads of different languages, but a big part of India (West, I think) does use English as its' primary language dating back to the British empire. A lot of Indians in these certain regions are deeply immersed in British culture, which is a large amount of Indians who move to the UK settle in easily, because back home they watched/played the same sports, went to the pub and were Christian etc.

Something that does perplex me about call centres, though, is that a lot of these Indians, though they do speak english, are extremely difficult to understand, especially bad for things such as IT support where the customer may not even know the most commonly used IT-lingo, let alone a very deep accent on top of that.

Re:hold on

[eobanb]

I wouldn't think that emulating India is really the way to go

Yah, they should just run it natively.

Re:hold on

[has2k1]

can you imagine a Texan calling customer service and he is routed to india.

Re:hold on

[BobaFett]

wouldent it be nice if we held international corporations to provide the same level of economic and humanitarian funding outside the country, and taxed the pajamas out of importers that don't

Are you prepared to pay the significantly higher price for the goods you can by today cheap precisely because the companies do not provide the same level of funding outside the country?

I have great respect for people who argue for equal wages and labor conditions and then live by their ideals (which means their level of life is significantly lower than what they could afford otherwise). I may not agree with their ideas, but I respect them. Hypocrites who yak about terrible working conditions in the 3rd world and then go by chineese t-shirts on sale get no respect from me.

Re:hold on

[dbIII]

India's call center business is almost 100% U.S. customers

Wrong. There was a good docementary a few years ago that showed call centre workers keeping track of London weather and english football scores so that they could better relate to customers.

Don't blame India for the actions of clueless American Managers who have given away the farm.

Re:hold on

[Anonymous Coward]

English is descended from Indo-European languages (Latin and High-German) and Sanskrit is the archetypical Indo-European language, at the very
bottom of the tree from which all other Indo-European languages come from. Sanskrit is techincally called "Proto Indo Aryan (PIA)".

So, yes, being Aryans (by definition), Indians certainly can speak English better than non
Indo-Eurpean peoples.

Re:hold on

[tovarish]

not exactly true, english is entrenched in the bureaucracy and industry thanks to the british rule but most of the young people in urban areas (like in any country) are more in touch with the american tv and hollywood culture. An extremely small percentage of people watch/play the same sports (english love football more while indians prefer cricket), go to pubs (only the younger generation since the 90s) and are christian (less than 2% of the population) in India.

Re:hold on

[killjoe]

Everybody should strive to have no debt. Live within your means and you won't worry about overconsuming. I drive an old car, I could afford a new one if I wanted to but I won't buy another one until I can pay for it with cash.

The problem is that most people live above what they could afford.

Re:hold on

[DNS-and-BIND]

Well, like the fact that the Prime Minister of Ukraine was caught red-handed on a tape selling huge radar systems to Iraq in 2002?

Re:hold on

[prostoalex]

1. That was the President of Ukraine.
2. The charges were dropped later.
3. The radars were never found in Iraq.

Re:hold on

[cybpunks3]

--
I have great respect for people who argue for equal wages and labor conditions and then live by their ideals (which means their level of life is significantly lower than what they could afford otherwise). I may not agree with their ideas, but I respect them. Hypocrites who yak about terrible working conditions in the 3rd world and then go by chineese t-shirts on sale get no respect from me.
--

Do we really have a choice? How often do YOU see a product that doesn't say Made in China on the back of it?

You make it sound like there are US-made alternatives to everything we buy. It's just not true, especially in the arena of consumer electronics and toys.

Re:hold on

[Anonymous Coward]

In fact this is only true for modern English, Olde English (which is also an ancestor of modern English) comes from part of what is now Holland.

Re:hold on

[Anonymous Coward]

hummmm. So should we go after the country that sold and trained Iraq in Bio Warefare (in the 80's)?

Perhaps, the country that trained Iraq in Chemical Warfare?

Or how about in their nuclear program?

How about the country that helped them launch attacks on another country (iran) and then basically allowed them to gas their own people?

Or the country that taught their dreaded security forces how to terrorize and control their population?

So who is that country? Why the same one that taught Al Qaeda. The same one that taught many of the columbians. The same one that installed Noriega in Panama and trained their forces on how to beat and rape their population.. The same one that installed the Shah in Iran. The same one that traded arms with the Iranians in the 80's.

Careful when speaking of morality. It is something that we lacked in the 80's and we severely lack now (we elected a lieing coward).

Re:hold on

[g0hare]

I don't really have much of a choice. There are really very few things made in America. Where can I buy an American made TV? American-made cars are around 15% off-shore content now. Shoot, stuff isn't even made in Japan anymore. We barely grow any food. I can't help but think that this is bad for our national security. And I don't know that I'd pay that much more. If the Dollar Store across the street from me went to a Dollar and a Quarter store I'd never notice. And I bet that the people who had jobs making that stuff would be less likely to be on welfare or commit crimes than they are now. It's very very complicated in a world economy, and we're not going to solve it this morning on SLashdot.

Re:hold on

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah selling Radars bad...
giving bioweapons and terrorist training good.

You immoral Ukranians. Get with the program.

Re:hold on

[Gi77 B4t35]

use English as its' primary language

Unkike you, it seems.

Kudos for finding a novel way to use an aberrant apostrophe, though.

Re:hold on

[rjshields]

In addition, India's call center business is almost 100% U.S. customers

Rubbish. In the UK we also have call centre jobs outsourced to India.

Re:hold on

[rjshields]

wouldent it be nice if we held international corporations to provide the same level of economic and humanitarian funding outside the country, and taxed the pajamas out of importers that don't

Nice idea, but that may hinder huge rich corporations becoming huger and richer. In corporate America, that idea ain't going to go down to well.

Re:hold on

[rjshields]

Do we really have a choice?

As a consumer, you have choice. You can choose not to buy from corporations whose policies encourage exploitation. Walmart is a good example - their aggressive purchasing policies leave the supplier little choice but to cut corners or be priced out of the market.

Re:hold on

[rjshields]

Something that does perplex me about call centres, though, is that a lot of these Indians, though they do speak english, are extremely difficult to understand

I don't find that surprising. I have just as much trouble understanding Brummies, Scousers, Geordies and Glaswegians, not to mention Americans, Australians, Irish and South Africans.

Re:hold on

[Anonymous Coward]

Unkike you? I happen to be a kike, and I find that offensive. Oh, and before firing off the high-and-mighty canon, make sure you yourself can spell, idjot.

Re:hold on

[patternjuggler]

Hypocrites who yak about terrible working conditions in the 3rd world and then go by chineese t-shirts on sale get no respect from me.

The people arguing for equal wages and labor conditions want the government and large businesses to enforce those standards, exactly for the reason you state- the consumers, even those who would support goverment initiatives to do same- are incapable of it.

It becomes doubly expensive for an individual to buy things that were manufactured to some personal arbitrary standard- the minor expense is the cost of meeting that standard, and the major cost is acquiring enough information (and making determinations about the quality of that information) about the product to make a decision on whether it meets the standard or not. A single or small set of organizations can do that second step much more efficiently than individuals.

I think I can say, without hypocrisy, that
A. I want to buy only things that weren't made by slave labor (for example),
B. I want it to be extremely easy to buy things not made by slave labor, so easy that any licensed local business I patronize has a near zero probability of having slave made products.
C. I want other people to not buy products made by slave labor, whether or not they care, because I know a lot of people don't care but slave labor is wrong regardless.

I don't feel strongly enough about A that I'll attempt it without B & C being in place, but I feel strongly enough that I'll vote for people who will make B & C happen.

Re:hold on

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry, English is my third language, but even I know how to spell "Unlike".

Re:hold on

[Anonymous Coward]

Haha you're an idiot.

The British invented football, brought it to India (who have countless teams watched and supported throughout India and internationally), the British invented cricket, which, well, that's pretty obvious.

Rugby, darts, pool, tennis, golf, the list goes on, you've obviously never been to India as I have twice (3 months at a time) and I found it extremely easy and welcoming.

Re:hold on

[DNS-and-BIND]

Perhaps, but that doesn't have shit to do whether or not the U.S. government wants to open trade with Ukraine. Getting caught red-handed making arms deals with the U.S.'s primary rival isn't a good idea, diplomatically speaking.

All this talk about Ukraine makes me feel like I'm playing Risk.

Re:hold on

[Anonymous Coward]

idjot.

Its' eejit, not idjot. Duah!

Re:hold on

[mikael]

I don't find that surprising. I have just as much trouble understanding Brummies, Scousers, Geordies and Glaswegians,

That's OK - there's an online training guide to the Scottish NED (Non-Educated Delinquent), the Glasgow Survival Guide

Re:hold on

[BobaFett]

A. I want to buy only things that weren't made by slave labor (for example),
...

C. I want other people to not buy products made by slave labor, whether or not they care, because I know a lot of people don't care but slave labor is wrong regardless.

I don't feel strongly enough about A that I'll attempt it without B & C being in place...

Let's see... You want other people to pay for something you want but you don't want to pay your fair share, and you use fancy words to achieve this result. As far as I'm concerned, you're a con man. Whether you are trying to get me to pay for your ideals or your big-screen TV, whether you talk about slave labor of African workers or millions left to you by your great-uncle the former minister of an African country, you're trying get something at my expense without paying for it yourself.

Re:hold on

[Anonymous Coward]

that doesn't have shit to do whether or not the U.S. government wants to open trade with Ukraine. Getting caught red-handed making arms deals with the U.S.'s primary rival isn't a good idea, diplomatically speaking.

Er... sorry? Since when was Ukraine "the US's primary rival"? I thought that was China these days, or historically Russia, but never Ukraine (since it left the USSR, at any rate).

Ukraine is a staunch US ally, and part of the New Europe that supports our action in Iraq. Do explain precisely why we shouldn't trade with them.

Re:hold on

[Anonymous Coward]

Oops. Please ignore the above posting, or better still mod it down; I just realised I completely missed the point.

Re:hold on

[An Onerous Coward]

Hmm. BobaFett is afraid of "fancy words."

It's perfectly common for the government to require certain information be made available to consumers. Every package of food comes with a listing of nutritional information, because it should be easy for consumers to make healthy choices. New cars are sold with information about what percentage of the car was built domestically, because it should be easy to "buy American".

Have either of these practices vastly increased the cost of the food or automotive industries? No. It's not a huge burden to make information available to consumers.

People shouldn't have to support exploitative labor practices with their dollars, but under the current system it's damned near impossible for a consumer to figure out what sort of labor practices a given manufacturer is using. Without some sort of regulatory system, those who want to support good manufacturers have to look up every single product they use, which is difficult, error prone, and adds absurd costs to every transaction.

The reason companies are afraid of such a policy is simple, and has nothing to do with burdensome regulations: they don't want to gain a reputation for using the sort of practices they're using.

So, what is the nature of your disapproval? Are you some libertarian nut-job who can't comprehend the idea that the government might be uniquely able to positively influence the market? Or are you afraid that such an initiative might hurt your Wal-Mart stock?

Re:hold on

[BobaFett]

So, what is the nature of your disapproval? Are you some libertarian nut-job who can't comprehend the idea that the government might be uniquely able to positively influence the market? Or are you afraid that such an initiative might hurt your Wal-Mart stock?

Neither. You missed the point: I don't necessarily disapprove of government regulations (not in the context you are describing anyway), as long as they apply equally to everyone. I disapprove when people say "I want all of you (except me) to pay more so I can have a clan consciousness". You want to sleep better at night? Then this is something of value to you, so you pay for it. Not me. If you don't care enough about it to pay for it, then you don't really care about it at all.

Re:hold on

[arivanov]

Err... You are approaching this from your american moral perspective. From his perspective - business as usual.

Also, it may have been better to allow him to sell it. It would not have been used to shoot down civilian airplanes with 70+ passengers flying on a scheduled international flight in an approved corridor. Which they did and tried to lie about it. So much for quality assurance of the system software I guess...

Re:hold on

[arivanov]

1. You seriously underestimate the level of English education in the ex-Soviet union. There is a reason why most of UN synchronouse translators are Russian.

2. Their natural advantage is that no matter how shitty is the spec they are given they usually say "Yes great white master" and implement it exactly as specified (laughing when you do not see them). This appeals to some arseholes that will be right in their place on a dilbert strip. Eastern Europeans do not do that. They will actually send you the spec back for clarification. And Ukrainians especially. If we are talking about a pathological case of overgrown national pride a hohol will be a classic example. They do not make good outsourcing slaves. So there will not be a lot of outsourcing there, because outsourcing is more often done to satisfy sense of inferiority, then to save money.

Re:hold on

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you sure the problem with the missile was in the software? To me it was more like human factor. The anti-aircraft missile system was an ancient S-200 (did it have any software at all? dunno, I was trained on S-300...). Anyway, the software found in such systems is EXTREMELY reliable.

Re:hold on

[arivanov]

Correct.
It is.
I was not talking about the S200 software.
To the extent of my knowledge tey did not _fire_ it using the S200 software. The S200 software aquired the target and killed it while in flight, but they fired it based on radar data from one of the newer systems, not from the original S200. And they made a pretty good job in covering up the fact that they are testing something that runs recent radar technology and and interfaces with old Russian missiles. That is a HELL OF A MARKET YA KNOW...
Just think of all those banana/oil republics "export version" control systems (Iraq is a good example). If you thought that American export controls are nasty, you have definitely not seen the Russian ones...

Re:hold on

[timeOday]

I think your premise is wrong. I think most people who are against exploitation of desparate people around the world wouldn't mind somewhat higher prices if it helped. In fact I think quite a few of those same people already shop at organic food markets, buy hybrid cars, and in other ways put their money where their mouth is. "Standard of living," at least in the US, has reached the level where it's all relative anyways.

Re:hold on

[Anonymous Coward]

Great, so the next time I call tech support the fellow at the other end will speak Sanskrit.

Re:hold on

[Gi77 B4t35]

English is my third language, but even I know how to spell "Unlike".

So do I, I just have trouble typing it, especially lying on my side (which is bad for your back, don't do it).

I should know better than to try to buck Skitt's Law.

Re:hold on

[patternjuggler]

You want other people to pay for something you want but you don't want to pay your fair share, and you use fancy words to achieve this result... you are trying to get me to pay for your ideals

Eventually you'll realize nearly anything you buy or any taxes that you pay are going towards some purpose you don't care for. Those little tag on the necks of shirts drives their cost up slightly, and some people who don't discriminate between fabric types when they wash their clothes or who don't wash their clothes at all may resent having to pay for that. State sales tax or income tax may be going towards public education, where they teach kids evolution or how to use fancy words- a lot of people don't care for that.

But in many cases the lack of choice in those kinds of areas is good, because providing for every possible ideal people might have would be expensive. It's far easier to settle upon the average ideals of most of the people.

Re:hold on

[Hognoxious]

even I know how to spell "Unlike".

No you don't. Firstly, we don't capitalise (common) nouns in English. Secondly, "unlike" isn't a noun.

speak for yourself, object.

[Man in Spandex]

more of quantity can turn in this case into more of quality.

We as humans evolve.

A crappy car will remain a crappy car no matter how much type-r stickers you put on it but as individuals who study and gain experience, programmers may not study in anything "outstanding" in the beginning but you never know what path they will take.

Re:speak for yourself, object.

[derEikopf]

Indeed, that is where people like Linus Torvalds make an odds-defying explosion into mainstream computing. However, there is more to my statement than just programmer population. Quality also refers to program quality. Not half-assed buggy software that was hurriedly released because of a dealine, and then half-assed patches and updates that were also released on a deadline.

Re:speak for yourself, object.

[antime]

Based on personal experience I take that as an argument for outsourcing.

Re:speak for yourself, object.

[Ohreally_factor]

So, you're saying that one should avoid outsourcing to Washington State? =)

Re:speak for yourself, object.

[HiThere]

In any population there will be a distribution of abilities along several partially independent axii. Linux Torvalds is special because he is highly skilled both as a programmer and as a team manager (and was lucky enough to be the right person at the right time). I wouldn't be surprised if you could find programmers more skilled that he is. Finding highly skilled ones which are also equally skilled managers is much more problematic, but has happened (consider Guido of Python, Matz of Ruby, etc.) Notice that the ratio of programming/managing is different with each one.

Communities thrive because of the differing skill mixes in their members. If everyone had the same skill mix, they would be much less successful.

You don't build a team out of super-stars. Not unless a part of their skill set is subordination without loss of prestige. And even so it's too expensive except as a PR ploy.

In a country where people are taught to be subordinate, SOMEBODY has to lead. Somebody has to coordinate goals and tasks.

In a country where people are taught to be independant, MOST people must subordinate themselves. Most people need to accept necessary tasks that aren't glamorous.

I'm not sure which is easier to accomplish. I am sure that the optimum hasn't yet been achieved ANYWHERE.

Small typo

[Anonymous Coward]

Both the submitter and the FA author seem to have misspelled "Elbonia."

Largest Population of 6'+ Humans

[YoungBonzi]

big people...

more to it

[Quixote]

There's more to becoming a global player than just the number of programmers. The infrastructure is important: not only the physical infrastructure like roads, trains and powerlines, but also the governmental infrastructure (like courts, government offices, etc.). Plus, a stable government (not a one-man show like in many other places) is necessary: money flees uncertainty.

It is unfortunate, but Ukraine has gained notoriety for being the base of a lot of the "east european bride" scammers. Plus, the general perceived lawlessness of the fUSSR republics is not conducive to investment. Face it: post communism, there were a lot of problems with foreign partners of Russian businessmen being bumped off and strong-armed.

Things may be different now, but a good reputation takes time to develop.

As far as India is concerned: there are many Indians in high places in tech companies in the US, and the natual tendency is for them to favor India (a known commodity, to them) for outsourcing their operations.

Re:more to it

[Tablizer]

There's more to becoming a global player than just the number of programmers. The infrastructure is important: not only the physical infrastructure like roads, trains and powerlines, but also the governmental infrastructure (like courts...

Yeah, what they really need is silly patent lawsuits. That is what fuels our economy. The dot-com boom didn't generate real revenue. You need a bunch of fat cat lawyers suing the shit out of each other over obvious ideas to have real commerce. Now THAT's an economy.

Re:more to it

[Ohreally_factor]

First of all, I don't think Silly is patentable outright. I think you might be able to patent a silly implementation or silly method, but you can't just patent Silly, as it is a concept.

Second, (and seriously now), you are confusing the legal system with the fucked up US patent system, and you seem to want to throw the baby out with the bath water due to your hatred of patents. If you think that modern society could get along without the rule of law and a legal system, you are probably terribly naive.

Modern business is one of those human endeavors that absolutely relies on legal systems for dispute resolution. Now, we can question whether going to court is always the best first action to take, but I don't think many would question that the courts provide the best last word when other methods of dispute resolution have failed.

Countries without rule of law and court systems are far too risky for most investors and conventional business people.

Re:more to it

[Hognoxious]

you can't just patent Silly, as it is a concept.

You could probably register it as a trademark, though. Especially if you are Belgian. Mmmmm ... beer.

Re:more to it

[ConceptJunkie]

you can't patent Silly

Are you sure?

Re:more to it

[Anonymous Coward]

wrt "natural tendency to favor":
Agree that 100 million USD and some 10,000 people industry is not exactly happening. But the comparisions with India are quite far fetched. TCS alone has more than 30,000 employees and larger companies in india have been adding 1000 plus people every couple of quarters now. Outsourcing makes business sense and it is got nothing to do with natural tendencies of high up folks in US companies. Indian companies are being seen as key partners by companies from Finland, UK, France and Asia, besides the US.

Article text in case someone actually reads it

[a.different.perspect]

and the server goes down.

Building The Muscle To Be A Tech Player

Ukraine has a bunch of cornfields, a bunch of old steel mills, and not much else. Right? Well, Ukraine also has a budding technology sector, and -- after the U.S., India, and Russia -- the fourth largest number of computer programmers in the world. It was a main center of the Soviet programming industry. The first computer built in continental Europe was made in Ukraine in 1951. Even today, scientific institutes each year churn out some 50,000 science or technology graduates. Not surprisingly, Ukrainians don't see why their country can't become a big player in the global technology market, like India. "We want Ukraine to become a technological country again, not just a country with agriculture and tank production," says Yuri Sivitsky, chairman of Softline, one of Ukraine's largest software producers.

What are the chances? While Ukraine isn't likely ever to rival India, it certainly has the potential to become a player. Just look at Softline. Founded by mathematicians in 1995, it has 500 employees, up from a dozen in 1998. Revenues are set to hit $10 million this year, up 70% from 2003. Its clients include Ingersoll-Rand Co. (IR ) and Hugo Boss.

The offshore programming industry, although small, is growing fast. According to Market-Visio, a research firm in Moscow, Ukraine's software exports will grow 43% this year to $100 million. Around 10,000 programmers are employed in the industry, working for customers such as Boeing (BA ), DaimlerChrysler (DCX ), General Electric (GE ), Citibank (C ), and NASA. Much of the work is customized business software. But gaming is also growing. Kvasar-Micro, Ukraine's largest info tech company, recently landed an order to develop a computer game for mobile handsets.

Ukraine's main selling point is the quality of its mathematical education. Another is cheap labor. An average programmer in Ukraine earns $500 a month, not quite as low as India, but half the level in Moscow and a fraction of programming salaries in the West. But the edge Ukraine gets from high education and low wages is offset by other factors. Around 90% of all software on sale in Ukraine is pirated, so domestic makers can't get the revenue they need to grow. Other problems are a lack of business skills, venture finance, and government support. But things are looking up. Management skills are improving as Ukrainians gain Western experience and earn MBAs. The government is mulling tax incentives for tech investment and starting to tighten piracy laws.

Some of the biggest names in the global technology industry have started to wake up to Ukraine's potential. "Ukraine is building up quickly," says Gerard J. Kleisterlee, CEO of Dutch electronics giant Royal Philips Electronics (PHG ), which makes an array of high-tech goods there. Flextronics International Ltd. (FLEX ), a Singapore electronics powerhouse, recently set up a software design lab in Ukraine, and CEO Michael E. Marks is enthusiastic about the nation's potential as an engineering and design power. If he's right, Ukraine has a digital future.

Re:Article text in case someone actually reads it

[Anonymous Coward]

An average programmer in Ukraine earns $500 a month, not quite as low as India, but half the level in Moscow and a fraction of programming salaries in the West.

A fraction of western salary? Just for the record, in The Netherlands (supposedly a modern western country), due to bad economic conditions the salary after tax for a programmer/developper is around $1000 (the minimum allowed by law). This includes people holding a M. Sc. degree. Even with these low salaries, managers are -still- looking for cheaper alternatives. Ukraine may be next, but I predict this will soon be seen as too expensive either. Next thing we know is that programming will get outsourced to people living in the bush who have never seen a computer before and have just been given the book "Programming for dummies".

Ooooh! Can they type like Borris from Goldeneye!?

[spankey51]

That'd be sooo cool!!! An entire nation of hackers, typing with one hand (faster than I can type) whilst the other twiddles a ballpoint-grenade... Cool...

soviet russia

[Anonymous Coward]

In soviet russia we had more programmers than bolsheviks!

I'm shocked, so shocked.

[loraksus]

Not surprisingly, Ukrainians don't see why their country can't become a big player in the global technology market, like India."

Because of the massive amounts of corruption at all levels of government? Organized crime bosses who refuse to let companies set up shop without bribes?

Re:I'm shocked, so shocked.

[bestadvocate]

how about population alone giving them the edge?

Re:I'm shocked, so shocked.

[bestadvocate]

oh buy the way my 2 seccond google search gave me 50 mill to 1,027,015,247 (indiachild. co m )

Re:I'm shocked, so shocked.

[Daniel832US]

Organized crime bosses who refuse to let companies set up shop without bribes?
But they'll give you a better exchange rate US Dollars-->Hryvnia than the banks...

Re:I'm shocked, so shocked.

[loraksus]

Haha, I cracked up when I read that.
Wish I could mod this discussion.

Re:I'm shocked, so shocked.

[swiftstream]

This is sad but true, and is one of the reasons that it is important that the opposition candidate, Viktor Yuschenko, win in the run off of the presidential election next Sunday. Perhaps he's not entirely clean, but he's certainly better than the Moscow-owned crook who has been the Prime Minister...

Re:I'm shocked, so shocked.

[tomhath]

"Because of the massive amounts of corruption at all levels of government? Organized crime bosses who refuse to let companies set up shop without bribes?" Are you referring to Ukraine or India? Corruption is a way of life in India. http://www.asiaweek.com/asiaweek/96/0216/ed1.html/

Re:I'm shocked, so shocked.

[tetromino]

it is important that the opposition candidate, Viktor Yuschenko, win in the run off of the presidential election next Sunday

Repeat after me: Both Candidates Totally Suck. Yuschenko might be 10% less corrupt than Yanukovich, but he is 100% more corrupt than an "acceptable presidential candidate". The only difference between the two, as far as I am concerned, is that Yanukovich has the TV and Putin on his side, while Yuschenko has the crazy West-Ukrainians.

in

[Konster]

In the former Soviet Union, the software compiled YOU!

So...

[Anonymous Coward]

So is Elbonia 3rd or 5th?

So THAT explains it!

[neotuli]

I'm a quarter Ukranian!

Re:So THAT explains it!

[Anonymous Coward]

yeah it also means you 4 times worse of for getting a woman, unless you want to buy from from the Ukraine.

Re:So THAT explains it!

[Anonymous Coward]

It has always bitten my logic why quarter-somethings make so much fuss than the full. Its in all aspects, look at the quarter-backs.

by the way the president who isn't even 1/4 - smart makes the most fuss in the world.

Not exactly

[a.different.perspect]

The infrastructure is important: not only the physical infrastructure like roads, trains and powerlines, but also the governmental infrastructure (like courts, government offices, etc.). Plus, a stable government (not a one-man show like in many other places) is necessary: money flees uncertainty.

While generally your comment makes sense, I take issue with the last statement. Money doesn't flee uncertainty. It would be far more correct to say it flees the certainty of unprofitability and the certainty of unstable infrastructure and government and an arbitrary court system, like in Indonesia for example. Investment pours into uncertain economies like Russia after the end of the Cold War because they promise change, and change is the essence of growth.

Re:Not exactly

[Gi77 B4t35]

Investment pours into uncertain economies like Russia after the end of the Cold War

Unfortunately, the returns on that investment don't always pour out of them.

Ukrainian programmers

[slavik1337]

the next Doom3/HL2/Far Cry killer that THQ will publish next year, STALKER: SHadow of Chernobyl is developed by a Ukrainian company called GSC gameworld. They also developed Firestarter if you played it :)

Re:Ukrainian programmers

[nacturation]

They also developed Firestarter if you played it.

And if I didn't play it, does that mean they didn't necessarily develop it?

Re:Ukrainian programmers

[slavik1337]

if you didn't play it, then you probably don't know of it.

Re:Ukrainian programmers

[Anonymous Coward]

STALKER: SHadow of Chernobyl

You're shittin' me. A game based on Tarkovsky's film and real life events?

Re:Ukrainian programmers

[Anonymous Coward]

That's if, not iff. If my face turns bright green and my head explodes, the sun will not burn out tomorrow. See?

Re:Ukrainian programmers

[Anonymous Coward]

That's if, not iff. If my face turns bright green and my head explodes, the sun will not burn out tomorrow. See?

Note the use of "necessarily".

Oh, well...Ukrainian Women are known to be...

[ambelamba]

Loose. Damn loose. Hungarian loose. No wonder why they wanna get the hell out of there. :D

A Message From PAACA

[Anonymous Coward]

(People Against Akward Car Analogies)

What the fuck do cars, human evolution, and type R stickers have to do with the price of eggs in russia?! Not everything is analogous to a car. Give it up!

Re:A Message From PAACA

[deimtee]

Well, think of it like this - some analogies are like sports cars fast, sleek, expensive and to the point. The ones you want to avoid are the SUVs, big, clunky and wasteful of space.

really?

[Jimmy The Tulip]

but I thought that they program in ukrainian... :">

dont underestimate...

[Jimmy The Tulip]

dont underestimate about the upcoming rivals like ireland and china. who can offer cheap outsourcing than india. but i guess software-outsourcing industry will take 2-3 years more to mature well... and to decide where to put money.

Outsource to Other Western Nations

[Anonymous Coward]

Outsourcing to other Western nations is perfectly acceptable since the family of Western nations all share similar notions of environmental protection, consumer safety, workers' rights, etc. This month, the USA is expected to complete a free-trade agreement with Australia. Let's bring Ukraine into the fold.

Let's terminate outsourcing to India and China. Both of these hellholes reject Western culture. Let's terminate the H-1B program.

Any outsourcing that would have gone to India should now go to the Ukraine and Eastern Europe.

Re:Outsource to Other Western Nations

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's terminate outsourcing to India and China. Both of these hellholes reject Western culture. Let's terminate the H-1B program.

Any outsourcing that would have gone to India should now go to the Ukraine and Eastern Europe.

So that when they have enough money, they can put missiles back in Cuba?

Re:Outsource to Other Western Nations

[Anonymous Coward]

Any outsourcing that would have gone to India should now go to the Ukraine and Eastern Europe.

In many US corporations, the middle managers ARE Indian.

That -- and Indian money laundered into the Bush campaign -- is why the jobs keep going east.

Good thing Saudi Arabia's buying all those Treasury Bonds.

Re:Outsource to Other Western Nations

[afd8856]

Fuck off.

Re:Outsource to Other Western Nations

[HiThere]

Bazz-fazz.

There are perfectly reasonable reasons to oppose the H1B program, you don't need to decorate it with xenophobia. And I really wish you wouldn't. It makes rest of us look bad by association.

Re:Outsource to Other Western Nations

[Anonymous Coward]

Personally, I would _much_ rather have lost Miami, New York, Washington DC and LA to nuclear missles based in Cuba than to have experienced the H-1b program in the US.

Puttin' on the Ritz

[Anonymous Coward]

If you're blue and you don't know where to go to
why don't you go where fashion sits,
Puttin' on the ritz.

Different types who wear a day coat, pants with stripes
and cutaway coat, perfect fits,
Puttin' on the ritz.

Dressed up like a million dollar trouper
Trying hard to look like Gary Cooper (super duper)

Come let's mix where Rockefellers walk with sticks
or "umberellas" in their mitts,
Puttin' on the ritz.

Have you seen the well-to-do up and down Park Avenue
On that famous thoroughfare with their noses in the air
High hats and Arrow collars white spats and lots of dollars
Spending every dime for a wonderful time

If you're blue and you don't know where to go to
why don't you go where fashion sits,
Puttin' on the ritz.
Puttin' on the ritz.
Puttin' on the ritz.

Ukraine Weak!

[brocktune]

"Ha ha, the Ukraine. Do you know what the Ukraine is? It's a sitting duck. A road apple, Newman. The Ukraine is weak. It's feeble. I think it's time to put the hurt on the Ukraine."

Classic Seinfeld

[cdsr]

[Kramer and Newman are playing Risk...] Newman: I'm not beaten yet. I still have armies in the Ukraine. Kramer: Ha ha, the Ukraine. Do you know what the Ukraine is? It's a sitting duck. A road apple, Newman. The Ukraine is weak. It's feeble. I think it's time to put the hurt on the Ukraine. Ukrainian: I come from Ukraine. You not say Ukraine weak. Kramer: Yeah, well we're playing a game here, pal. Ukrainian: Ukraine is game to you?! Howbout I take your little board and smash it!! The Ukrainian pounds the game board, destroying it and sending army pieces flying.

Re:Classic Seinfeld

[FuzzyBad-Mofo]

What, no Moops?

Well..

[netrat]

Wellsir,

The underlying cause of this statistic can be resolved by employing the following simple thought experiment:

Well, what the fuck else are you going to do in fucking Ukraine?

ASK SLASHDOT: What language to learn

[Anonymous Coward]

I need to pick up a foreign language elective. Should I learn Russian, Ukrainian, German, or another? (note: not French, Spanish, or Italian. I hate everyone who speaks those)

Re:ASK SLASHDOT: What language to learn

[Simonetta]

If you're American, then you should learn Spanish because it's your countrie's second language.

If you're Canadian, then you should learn French because it's your countrie's second language.

If you are only interested in getting the college elective requirement satisfied, then go with French or Spanish because half of the words are the same as in English. German has a lot of simple words that are the same as English, but it gets really difficult after the first semester.

Any other language is far too much a pain in the ass to fool with. There will always be someone around that knows some English if you go to these places.

If you're a young male American, then whatever you do, don't study Arabic! You'll be the first one drafted after all the National Guard 35-year-old, weekend-warriors, '$150 extra a month and one weekend playing Rambo in the woods' people are returned home from their 'service' in the never-to-end Iraqi War.

All in all, take French. Even if you hate the French, it's still an easy language to study in order to get the college elective requirement done with. Second best choice would be Spanish, because you'll actually be able to talk to people after college. It will be real handy if there are no jobs when you get out of college and have to go work at the Burger King. Or want to go someplace really cheap to live that's warm and doesn't have psychotic police always shaking you down.

Re:ASK SLASHDOT: What language to learn

[vipw]

Everyone in Ukraine speaks Russian, many of them don't speak Ukrainian; this is because the Ukrainian language was surpressed during the Soviet era. So learning Russian makes much more sense especially because you can speak it in Russia, Belarus, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, and it's also fairly well known in many of the former Soviet satellites. Knowing it will also give a big head start for learning any of the Slavic languages. However, it's extremely difficult to learn, from my limited experience studying it.

German is a good language to know in Europe, but it's usefulness doesn't go much beyond the German speaking countries. You might also want to consider Portuguese, knowing it would be useful for learning any of the romance languages later.

Re:ASK SLASHDOT: What language to learn

[incal]

Actually, even with mediocre command of German, you can easily communicate in Czech Republic, Hungary, western part of Poland, Ukraine, former Yugoslavia and Albania.

Outside large centers of demographically younger population, English is not well known there. Even if Yankee think different :). its all due to old Habsburgs Empire, and in Europe history does matter.

Re:ASK SLASHDOT: What language to learn

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow...do you hate all the French, Spanish, Italians and Latin America(-Brazil)ns? Or just the annoying people who run around flaunting their language skills?

Take my word for it: If you haven't learned a foreign language before, it's going to be hard at first. French, Spanish and Italian have the advantage that their grammars are simple as shit compared to German and Russian. Spanish is probably the most straightforward because of the somewhat creative approach to spelling in French (it actually makes sense, if you can discern the slight nuances in spoken French).

Russian and German will suck ass at first. In German, there are a bunch of different ways of just saying the word 'the', almost as many for 'a'. What holds for both German and Russian are that most of the words in any given sentence will change forms depending on what role they play in the sentence, with each other, and what tense the sentence is in.

In Russian you get the added difficulties of understanding fewer cultural references at first, a lack of articles before nouns and fewer words that mean literally the same thing. E.g. English, "to have"; German, "zu haben"; Russian, "oo menya yest" (literally "by me is"). Not to forget the alphabet, intonation and changes in letter pronunciation.

Basically: Do you really want to learn any given language? If you do, go for it. If not, learn the most straightforward language your school offers.

Re:ASK SLASHDOT: What language to learn

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't know about Yugoslavia and Albania but in the other countries you list I've had a much better chance with English, also people seemed a lot friendlier when I started the conversation in English.

Re:ASK SLASHDOT: What language to learn

[Vitus Wagner]

Learn Russian. People who live on Ukraine typically speak Russian or Polish better than Ukrainian. And most of Ukrainian programmers know Russian. Because there are a lot more technical literature published in Russian than in the Ukrainian.

Ukrainian language is more or less invention of nationalists politics from West Ukraine. And most educated people are located in the East part (Kharkov region) where Russian was always native language.

Re:ASK SLASHDOT: What language to learn

[Anonymous Coward]

> People who live on Ukraine typically speak Russian or Polish better than Ukrainian.

That's wrong.

>Ukrainian language is more or less invention of nationalists politics from West Ukraine.

Damn lie.

>And most educated people are located in the East part (Kharkov region)

Wrong. Look at Kiyv, for example.

>where Russian was always native language.

Lie. Russian is wide-spreaded here _only_ in large cities.

Re:ASK SLASHDOT: What language to learn

[Anonymous Coward]

German, geeks need to know German.

Re:ASK SLASHDOT: What language to learn

[Anonymous Coward]

Learn Latin. You'll get a good grasp of grammer and a decent portion of vocabulary so you'll be able to quickly learn any indoeuropean language after that.

Re:ASK SLASHDOT: What language to learn

[Anonymous Coward]

You're right, but I don't think it's his fault, Russians actaully seem to belive all that because all their massmedia keep repeating it over and over again. They also think we support Yanukovich and Yushchenko is a CIA agent and a fascist. One thing that completly eludes me however is where he got the Poles from?

Re:ASK SLASHDOT: What language to learn

[rxmd]

One thing that completly eludes me however is where he got the Poles from?

Large parts of what is Western Ukraine today used to belong to Poland before WWII. Ukrainian as a language is also somewhat between Russian and Polish. The dialects are closer to Polish in Western Ukraine. My girlfriend comes from Eastern Ukraine near Dnepopetrovsk, and when she speaks Ukrainian, I understand her pretty well (I know some Russian). People from the western regions such as Lviv I usually don't understand at all.

Re:ASK SLASHDOT: What language to learn

[rxmd]

Learn Russian. People who live on Ukraine typically speak Russian or Polish better than Ukrainian.

This is not quite right. It depends on where you are and whom you hang around with, and there is a large Russian-language minority, but still Ukrainian is the majority language in Ukraine. And you're completely wrong about the Polish; even in the West Ukraine, the dialects of Ukrainian are not mutually intelligible with Polish at all, even though they share some features.

And most of Ukrainian programmers know Russian. Because there are a lot more technical literature published in Russian than in the Ukrainian.

That's true. Which is why I'd agree with you and recommend learning Russian; most Ukrainians tend to speak it, even if many of them don't particularly love it, and generally Russian is a much more useful language in the world than Ukrainian, because you can use it in Russia, too.

Ukrainian language is more or less invention of nationalists politics from West Ukraine.

This, again, is completely wrong. In debunking Ukrainian nationalism as a whole, you're spreading another nationalist myth, from Russia this time. (Since I'm neither Ukrainian nor Russian, I think I can say this.)

Ukrainian is an East Slavic language of its own. Dialects from East Ukraine are mutually intelligible with Russian to some extent. I've learned Russian as a foreign language (I'm German), and when I listen to Ukrainian speakers from East Ukraine, I understand about a third.

However, literary Ukrainian is far less close to Russian, and I don't understand it as easily. The literary language is also quite old; the first grammar of Ukrainian was published well in the 1830s (about twenty years after the first modern grammar of Russian), and the center of Ukrainian nationalism in the early 19th century was Kharkiv (or Kharkov in Russian), not the Polish-influenced West.

And most educated people are located in the East part (Kharkov region) where Russian was always native language.

Wrong again; the center of education is probably the capital, Kyiv (Kiev in Russian), which is in an Ukrainian-speaking region, and Lviv in the far west has an extremely good university. Even in the East, Russian isn't and wasn't "always" native language everywhere; my girlfriend is from Dnepopetrovsk, which is about as far east as it gets, and she's a native speaker of Ukrainian.

Re:ASK SLASHDOT: What language to learn

[Anonymous Coward]

Well Ukrainian and Polish are largely mutually intelligible to the point that I can understand Polish when its spoken clearly and slowly (ditto for Slovakian btw). But at present there is no significant Polish speaking population in Ukraine and the claim that people who live in Ukraine typically speak Polish better then Ukrainian seems really strange (for Russain it's unfortunately true at the moment in the Kharkiv region).

Re:ASK SLASHDOT: What language to learn

[rxmd]

Can't really confirm that. I guess if you want to travel Eastern Europe, it's a good idea to know both of them, maybe a little Russian, too, even if that's even less liked.

It depends on how old people are, I guess, the younger population speaks English better than German, while older people are better in German.

Re:ASK SLASHDOT: What language to learn

[rxmd]

But then, most Slavonic languages are mutually intelligible to this extent... I mean, Russian is the only one I've learned, and I do understand Ukrainian, when people speak clearly and slowly, at least with speakers from the East (and it's a beautiful language, by the way). But when I was in Poland and Slovakia, I've managed to understand people, too, as long as they took the time and I took a little bother.

I guess it's cool to have languages grouped so closely together, you can get yourself understood in a much wider area of countries... But they're still separate languages.

Re:ASK SLASHDOT: What language to learn

[Anonymous Coward]

You appear to be an expert, so perhaps you can tell me: Is there an average social status of russian speakers in Ukraine. Are they upper or lowerclass?

Re:ASK SLASHDOT: What language to learn

[Registered Coward v2]

Can't really confirm that. I guess if you want to travel Eastern Europe, it's a good idea to know both of them, maybe a little Russian, too, even if that's even less liked.

It depends on how old people are, I guess, the younger population speaks English better than German, while older people are better in German.

Must been all those German tourists from the 1930's and 40's.

Re:ASK SLASHDOT: What language to learn

[Registered Coward v2]

I need to pick up a foreign language elective. Should I learn Russian, Ukrainian, German, or another? (note: not French, Spanish, or Italian. I hate everyone who speaks those)

Pick the one with hot babes that you like. Nothing motivates learning like the possibility of a sleeping dictonary.

Re:ASK SLASHDOT: What language to learn

[Anonymous Coward]

German is also understood by the majority of Dutch people, especially the older people. Young people tend to be better in English though, but they still understand German.

German and Dutch is -very- simular. If you know German, you can understand Dutch if the native speaker just speaks slowely. There are even some border regions (zuid limburg, around Aachen) where people speak a dialect that is a perfect cross between Dutch and German.

Oh, and for the ones who don't know. Half of Belgium speaks Dutch too, and therefore understands German as well.

Re:ASK SLASHDOT: What language to learn

[Sylvius]

Ukrainian language is more or less invention of nationalists politics from West Ukraine.

Ukrainian is the native language of, suprisingly, Ukraine. Russian being widely spoken in Ukraine is the invention (to use your word) of many years of Russian oppression and of a Soviet aim to completely stamp out all semblences of nationalism and heritage. Even now when the USSR is finally gone, there is a strong push from Moscow to make Russian the official language of many of their former oppressees (which is necessary since aside from aggressive colonialism and a little oil, Russia has few natural resources and needs its former conquests for things like agriculture). Apparently you are one of the victims of their ridiculous propaganda if you really believe the Ukrainian language is some kind of a scam.

Analogy: groups in Texas, southern California and Florida band together on a marketing campaign to make Spanish the official language of the U.S. Campaing spokesman says, "English is more or less an invention of nationalists from the northern U.S. Look at southern Florida: most people here speak Spanish better than English!"

Re:ASK SLASHDOT: What language to learn

[Anonymous Coward]

Just how different is Ukrainian from Russian in the first place? I notice that they have the letter "i", not just the Cyrillic equivalent.

Re:ASK SLASHDOT: What language to learn

[lightyellowishgreen]

If you are someone living in India , Learn English for jobs.Cuz many Indians dont understand their national language Hindi due to huge regional dieeferences in culture and language.

Re:ASK SLASHDOT: What language to learn

[rxmd]

I don't think you can make a general statement about this. It all depends on where you live and what your occupation is. In West Ukraine, the general status of Russian is rather low. In the East, there's less status distinction on the basis of language. If you come to Ukraine as a foreigner, nobody really expects you to know Ukrainian, and in general Ukrainian native speakers will be extremely pleased and friendly if you can speak a couple of sentences in Ukrainian as well.

In administrative or technical professions, I guess there's little distinction either, partly because everybody there is perfectly bilingual anyway; due to the Soviet past, Russian is still the language of science.

The general official line is to replace Russian with English in the long run as the first foreign language and strengthen the position of Ukrainian, against Russian. In most schools, the amount of Russian has dropped significantly, and Ukrainian and English are compulsory now. For Russian native speakers, this is bad, of course, as their children have to learn two languages in school (Ukrainian and English) and so on. Similar processes are going on in most other former Soviet republics. The effects will only be felt in ten or twenty years, however.

Re:ASK SLASHDOT: What language to learn

[vipw]

I don't really know how similar they are, but they're both Slavic languages. In Kiev it didn't matter what language someone would speak in because they would both be understood, but I'm sure it would be a little different in Moscow.

Re:ASK SLASHDOT: What language to learn

[gtrubetskoy]

most Ukrainians tend to speak it, even if many of them don't particularly love it, and generally Russian is a much more useful language in the world than Ukrainian, because you can use it in Russia, too.

And because quite a few people in the Ukraine don't speak Ukranian, but do speak Russian. (This is true for many other former USSR republics, BTW).

Germany?

[SphericalCrusher]

Wow. I really expected Germany to be on that list at least. After all, we do hear about most virus writers coming from this country, as well as the hackers they have.

I can see why...

[museumpeace]

They hold the third largest population of phishers scammers and hackers.
Ukrainian programmers won't be the first to land fat outsourcing contracts: they are as mob-ridden as Russia and better known for This kind of programmer than India is.

Re:I can see why...

[Anonymous Coward]

What makes you think the only road to success is outsourcing from USA? They can just as easily become successful crunching out their own products. Or even with outsourcing, they can cater to Europeans and East-Asians. In case you haven't noticed, the american dollar is going down the tubes and will continue the trend for the forseeable future (with Bush at the helm), while the Euro and Yen are becoming much more desirable.

Re:I can see why...

[Vintermann]

Eastern european technical education has more in common with Taiwan and Korea than the US. A good deal of the programmers in Ukraine are NOT phishers/crackers (like you have in the US too), but mathemathicians, physicists or engineers with really good programming skills as a plus.

Not to you in particular, but until you compare the average skill level of american college graduates with their ukrainian equivalients, people in this thread should be a bit more humble with respect to poorer nations.

Re:I can see why...

[museumpeace]

...In case you haven't noticed, the american dollar is going down the tubes and will continue the trend for the forseeable future (with Bush at the helm)...
The point you are making is valid, folks like Rubik and the guy who invented Tetris are two of many examples that Slavs and Russians can originate commercially viable products and ideas. [and , from my perspective as an american sw engineer, that is competition to be scared of]. The point I was making is that there is a perception, not hard to substantiate if you read the news, that eastern europe is a den of theives...I doubt its actaully any worse than other places, just has more talent with stuck with less opportunity for legitimate business.
But you didn't read my sig! so here it is twice:
if (euro >= (4.0*dollar)) rename("dollar", "bushbuck");

Re:I can see why...

[museumpeace]

You are absolutely right. And it is not just the level of rigor of the educational offering, its the gumption of the students. I believe Americans have, on average, an increasingly impoverished culture with respect to the value of education, and science/math/engineering in particular. I have 30 years in the software business so I do a fair amount of resume reading and interviewing...green card candidates routinely show in their CV a lot more ambition ... not that there aren't smart hard working Americans, just the proportions are off. Its as if too many Americans get their attitude toward technical subjects and homework from watching Homer Simpson. Raj and Pavel labored but got through differential equations. Jim and Bill just want any Bachelors degree that will set them up for an MBA.
So in america, "geek" and "nerd" are terms applied to a lot of people known to be technically proficient and assumed by others to be socially marginal...do we have a problem here?

Re:I can see why...

[Anonymous Coward]

I got your point, but here's the difference: americans have more of "my way or the highway" attitude. They judge other cultures instead of trying to understand them, and they're reluctant to deal with shady communities because it doesn't fit their philosophy (which is the Only Way). Europeans, on the other hand, are used to dealing with multiple cultures and have less problem working with shadier countries and getting useful stuff out of them.

incorrect assumption

[Kohath]

Ukrainians don't see why their country can't become a big player in the global technology market, like India."

Because "programming" isn't the key factor in whether your nation is a "big player" in the global technology market. It is a factor, but it's a ways down the list.

Ukranian guy won a software competition

[AndreyFilippov]

Last winter I've got an idea of trying a software competition to develop a video streamer for the network cameras developed by Elphel (both software and hardware are GPL'ed). I decided to try Russian software developers (I'm Russian myself) so I wrote an article in a Russian online magazine "Computerra" and offered a $3000 prize for the best streamer to use with the camera (the code was to retain author's copyright and be released under GNU/GPL). I did not expect many participants and thought I'l sacrifice 3 cameras. But it turned different and I've sent out 9 of them - 4 to Russia, 3 - to Ukraine, 1 - to Germany and 1 to India (the article was in Russian - that restricted participants to Russian-reading).

Of those 9 participants 6 reached the finish line and the winner is Ukrainian Alexander Melichenko. What amazed me was that I've got the first version of his steamer in just a couple weeks after the announcement _before_ he received the hardware! Hi used my online camera to download his application over the Internet and made it working. And the camera uses Axis ETRAX100LX CPU - something he never programmed before.

All that software is now on our Sourceforge project page - https://sourceforge.net/projects/elphel.

Re:Ukranian guy won a software competition

[Anonymous Coward]

How much does that camera cost?

Thanks in advance.

Re:Ukranian guy won a software competition

[AndreyFilippov]

We sell them now for $800 (+lens+power supply). There is also a $100/camera discount for those who are going to develop software to work in/with the camera and release it under GNU/GPL or compatible license.

Re:Ukranian guy won a software competition

[notany]

I have worked/friend with some east European programmers/scientists/ohterpeople and here is my humble opinion.

Basically east Europe is culturally/mentally 30-50 years behind western europe. Many people with my age (~30) have something common with my parents or other older westerners. And I mean that in good sense.

It has something to do with old fashioned education plus better general self discipline in all areas.

Some personal data points; (consider them as general observations)

1. They don't generally suffer from AHDH (as sickness and general mentality) like many western counterparts.
2. They don't eat too much.
3. They don't use all these sleeping pills/prozac/etc. combinations I have noticed many my North American friends do (we western europeans are not that deep in shit yet).
4. They don't have severe email/web/slashdot addictions.
5. They can concentrate.
6. They have good mathematical background.
7. They can do even painful and not so fun projects if they must

And don't think that I'm saying that we westerners are some kind of degenerate bunch of people. What I'm saying that our culture has some drawbacks that can knock out big % of our potentially talented people into slacker mode.

Re:Ukranian guy won a software competition

[ZurichPrague]

Can I get the winner's personal information? I'm planning in the next few months to start an outsourcing company in the Ukraine, and I'm looking for good people.

Thanks, David

XDavidBroderickX@yahoo.com (without the X's)

ukraine is not weak . . .

[dancedance]

ukraine is not weak, ukraine is strong

Obligatory joke

[Anonymous Coward]

Was the percentage inverted when they were part of Soviet Russia?

This is not serious!

[Simonetta]

Should we seriously believe that The Ukraine has more computer programmer productivity and output than:

China - 1.3 billion people and a booming economy with millions of students studying technology?

Korea - where 1/4 of the people have at-home broadband, and like China, has millions of people working in the technology industry?

Taiwan - where nearly everything technological that isn't specifically designed to kill people who don't shop at the Baby Gap is designed, programmed, and manufactured?

Japan - With the world's second largest economy and a world leader in electronic R&D and embedded-systems computers?

I think some second-rate journalist got an all-expenses-paid government tour and spent a lot of time with Hot, Available Ukrainian Brides-to-be
and then wrote up this wild fantasy of Ukrainian computer mastery in order to get invited back on next year's government tour.

We must not take these snow-jobs seriously.

Re:This is not serious!

[Muhammar]

Yes, but they are near the top - in the virus developer's community.

Re:This is not serious!

[cuteseal]

You need to take into account affordability in terms of outsourcing software development contracts to. In Australia, where I'm from, the big thing at the moment is outsourcing stuff to India, as their rates are somewhere between a third and a half of our local rates - and that's after factoring in travel expenses and the like.

China might be a viable alternative, I don't know about the rest.

Re:This is not serious!

[antoy]

Get a hold of yourself.

Have you ever been to Ukraine? I haven't, but I've been to Romania, a neighbouring country with the same mindset regarding computer programming. I was there for BOI (the Balkan Olympiad in informatics) and let me tell you that Romanians kicked our Balkan (and in other times international) asses. I'm not going to chalk this up to training and practice because they were awfully talented guys (and it would like I'm bitter, which I am not), but they *do* have an excellent education system which, as I've heard, would teach them about graphs and minimum spanning trees while we were being taught on using MS Paint on Windows 3.1.

Is it a rich country? From what I've seen in Iasi, it's not. Do they know how to get there? Somebody in their Ministry of Education sure does.

Re:This is not serious!

[Anonymous Coward]

"Korea - where 1/4 of the people have at-home broadband, and like China, has millions of people working in the technology industry?"

So before broadband there where no programmers, or what are you trying to say ?

Re:This is not serious!

[niteice]

Programmers need broadband like fish need water.

Re:This is not serious!

[Anonymous Coward]

Which one of the above four has programmers with a better command of the English language? I rest my case. In that department, the only real competitor is India. But the main point is that programmers here need to get used to a global marketplace. It's the way of things.

Re:This is not serious!

[danila]

Romania is not Ukraine. In Ukraine they may teach students about graphs and minimum spanning trees, but with no students understanding what the hell this means, not asking questions, then pretending they do a project and pass an exam, without actually knowing ANYTHING in the end. This is not an understatement, that's exactly how it works for 95% or the students.

Re:This is not serious!

[drgonzo59]

You are looking at numbers. But have you been to all those countries? I grew up in Soviet Union, lived close to Ukraine but I am a Romanian. Now I live in US and work and study along Indians, and Asians. I have to say, that China, Korea and India might have a larger population and more graduate students come from those countries, and the students from Ukraine, Russia, and Romania are fewer but they kick everyone's behind when it comes to doing math or developing an application from scratch, or doing something innovative. Indians and Chinese are good at programming if they have the flowchart or the algorithm ready. I think there are mainly two reasons behind this, one is that people from Eastern Europe a more competitive and also they have a better education system. One of the replies to the comment was that 99% of students there cheat and just "get by" to graduate, that is true but the rest %1 come out to be pretty darn good and end up all over the world as experts.

Yeah I know I stereotyped everyone, but behind most stereotypes there is a grain of truth.

Re:This is not serious!

[HiThere]

That's probably how it works for 95% of the students EVERYWHERE. It's the 5% that make the difference. If you foster and develop and value them, then they will excell. If you suppress them, they won't (or fewer of them will).

Also, consider the other classes. Different classes have a different 5% at the very top. (With, admittedly, a reasonable overlap.) Different people are most skilled and most interested in different things. If you can get 5% interested in understanding what programming is about, you are doing well. (But don't forget the 5% you need for chemistry, 5% for physics, 5% for literary skills, 5% for management [YES, managers are indeed necessary. But they need to learn to do it RIGHT, not as a power game.), 5% for mechanics, 5% for... pretty soon I'm going to run out of students.

Re:This is not serious!

[HiThere]

You DRASTICALY exaggerate. Programmers benefit from broadband, but actually the only thing that broadband has really allowed me to do that dial-up wouldn't is download distributions. And I don't really do that very often.

Now the internet is something else. Programmers do need the internet, so something similar. But broadband? Musicians have more need for that than programmers do. (Not that many of them know it.)

Re:This is not serious!

[danila]

The problem is not what you describe, the problem is that in almost every Russian, Ukrainian, Belorussian, Moldavian (add the rest of the CIS) university only 5% of students are worth anything. This doesn't mean that 95% of students who are not good in CS/IT/programming/whatever you call it will be good in something else, this means they will still attend the lectures (if even that) in the CS department, but will learn nothing (spelled N-O-T-H-I-N-G). So in the end only 5% of all graduates have any skills and knowledge worth speaking of. Which means that of all graduates only 0.2% will be good programmers, 0.2% will be good managers, etc. And 90-95% will be stupid illiterates who are only capable of a low-level (in the US that would be flipping burgers, in CIS there aren't as many burger joints to employ them).

Education is xUSSR is really fucked up now and I know what I am talking about (though I was lucky to get exceptionally good education :] most people aren't as lucky).

Re:This is not serious!

[Coulson]

This is really interesting stuff. I'd love to hear more (i.e., why is it so screwed up?). Can you provide some details or links?

Re:This is not serious!

[danila]

Most links are probably in Russian. I would be glad to find some references in English, the problem is I get terribly depressed when I read about this stuff and immediately want to "kill them all" or something. :)

So much needs to be written, but I will avoid the impulse to start writing a comprehensive 10-page treatise on the problem and will give only some of the most important reasons.

1) Our government are a bunch of traitor sell-outs. Sad, but true. It goes beyond incompetence when government spendings on science decrease each and every year since 1991, and when the spendings on one school pupil per GPD per capita in Russia are 2nd lowest in the world (the lowest is Nigeria or Zimbabwe, don't remember which).
2) Economic collapse was horrible. Production in Russia dropped 50% (Great Depression was about 30%), Russia is still worse off than it was in 1989. Other former Soviet Republics are even worse... sometimes much worse (with the exception of Baltic states).
3) The stratification is horrible. 10% richest people get 15 more money than 10% poorest.
4) Government employees (doctors, teachers, university professors) were hit the worst. A significant fraction of them had income below poverty line. Once I was paid 10$/month for teaching (doing it probably better than any of the hundreds of teachers there ever could) financial management to 150 students in a large, well-known, supposedly prestigeous university. This created problems, which cannot be easily fixed, even now, when some professors can finally earn enough.
5) Formalism crept into schools. It became hard to do the job well, but as long as you took care about all formalities (students attended, exams passed, that kind of stuff), you were fine. This spread to students too - as long as you write and present a paper, you pass, even when the whole paper was copy-pasted from an internet page and you don't understand a single fucking sentence that is written there.
6) Education in schools degraded and now 1st year students don't know how to read and understand texts, they can't express themselves, they don't know basic math, they don't know anything about other disciplines. Still, they may have excellent grades and it appears that everything is fine.
7) People irrationally continued to believe that they still have the best education system in the world that Soviet Union had. It's no longer true, but people found it more comfortable to beleive this lie than to realise the horrible truth and do something.
8) Teachers lost qualification or left schools. With low pay and no motivation to work well you got mostly poor performers.
9) It's impossible to change anything if you are alone, and
10) Nobody cares. Or at least it looks this way.
11) In Venezuela President Chavez opened a school in his palace to do something to improve the education and to show that he cared. The fucking abomination that Russia has for president had both his bastard girls studying in Europe. How much does he care? The criminals governing other xUSSR countries care even less (see [1]).

This is a gist of the sad story that is education in former USSR republics. Needless to say, with 200 million people living there, there are some places where the situation is good, some where it's even great, but overall it's exactly as I described.

Re:This is not serious!

[niteice]

Yes, coders need the Internet. But, no coder would be very happy with dialup.

Re:This is not serious!

[RWerp]

This is a problem which will never be solved completely: should we go for the elite in education, or for the masses? I think that the best way would be somewhere in the middle. I train students in Poland. Freshmen are terrible, they barely graps anything. On the 3rd and 4th year, though, the remaining half is quite bright and graps things pretty easily. Of course, this may be due to my poor teaching skills, but other tutors agree with me that freshmen are terrible...

Contradicting the popular opinion

[DataDragon]

I've just gotten done reading the initial reaction of trolls and jokes about this.

Ukraine does have quality engineers, does have better economics and less corruption than other CIS countries, and has been a considerable supporter of US interests (e.g., they dropped one of the highest levels of troops into Iraq for support. Even though, honestly, a country like that couldn't afford large military action, they did so anyway and I might add- with a level of political push considerably lower than others.)

They are a society with European heritage, a large number of the population understands English, German, French, Italian, etc.) and for most Americans travelling to a typical "outsource" destination, Ukraine is both a familiar and not-so-culture-shocking destination (Compared, say, to China or India, for most Americans)

I cannot say they don't have drawbacks, but I've researched the area heavilly and found that the people are much like the USA glory days -- preferring "Handles" and such, for fun mostly, and their display of individual pride. Here in old Silicon Valley, I'm corporate Borg. Getting sick of it.

The organized crime aspects, well, I've had many discussions about that as well-- software isn't really their target, though. In most cases, its usually "competition" that drives the hostilities, and likewise, the vast majority of such cases are non-violent... just annoying (phone turned off, electricity cut, etc.) Like anywhere in the world, if you don't want trouble, don't start trouble. Respect goes a long way in those cultures.

Personally, I'd jump at the chance to go to Ukraine myself. I think it would be rewarding and fun to help cultivate not only the economic flow, but to work with the people there.

For those who are more politically inclined about how the Ukrainian air is going, the present Presidential Elections in Ukraine are showing a huge outpouring of support for the new candidate that wishes to bring Ukraine into the EEC.

There aren't that many CIS countries that can say they are trying quite as hard to embrace the Westernized world by cooperation and with as little grandstanding as Ukraine is doing.

Anyway, they aren't so bad: Wikkkipedia on Ukraine and they can ROCK too!

Peace out. :)

Re:Contradicting the popular opinion

[Anonymous Coward]

They are a society with European heritage, a large number of the population understands English, German, French, Italian, etc.) and for most Americans travelling to a typical "outsource" destination, Ukraine is both a familiar and not-so-culture-shocking destination (Compared, say, to China or India, for most Americans)

Really ? Are Ukranians even Aryan ? Most of the 500 million plus north indians are Aryan (by definition), whose Aryan Hindu religion defines and uses the holy symbols of swastika, shubhtika, laltika etc. (all of which are Hindi words). There was a reason why the Nazis spoke Hindi on purpose and adopted Hindu symbols on purpose (for example, the german word for swastika is hakenkreuz (hooked cross), yet the nazis chose to speak in Hindi).

Re:Contradicting the popular opinion

[Anonymous Coward]

The factual assertions presented here are, for most part, wrong. In particular:

• Ukraine does have quality engineers, does have better economics and less corruption than other CIS countries, and has been a considerable supporter of US interests (e.g., they dropped one of the highest levels of troops into Iraq for support.

I don't see any difference to other CIS countries here. And "supporting US interests" is mainly a synonym for prostitution. Popular opinion in Ukraine is no more pro-US than in any other European country. Post-Soviet Ukrainean goverments have kissed Uncle Sam's *** at every opportunity -- and US rewarded them with economic sanctions.

This is for those who need yet another proof that a deal made with USA hardly ever increases the value of the paper it is printed on. I have no idea why time after time people try this strategy; the fact that 'white man [USA] speaks with a forked tongue' has been common knowledge for ages now.

• They are a society with European heritage, a large number of the population understands English, German, French, Italian, etc.)

Based on personal experience: simply not true. Even highly educated people in Ukraine, such as university professors, mainly don't speak English. Perhaps 20% do. A few more speak German. But all of them speak Russian. Situation is basically the same as in other CIS countries.

• There aren't that many CIS countries that can say they are trying quite as hard to embrace the Westernized world by cooperation and with as little grandstanding as Ukraine is doing.

There is no 'Western world'. There is USA and Europe. And there is not so much common between them. For an insightful opinion for this topic, see: http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1345790 ,00.html.

Unfortunately, my experience says that on this (and almost any other English language) board on the net any dissidece will immeadiately be rated as flamebait. So much for 'freedom of speech' in USA.

Re:Contradicting the popular opinion

[swiftstream]

This is all true--I lived in Ukraine for two years, and frankly I felt much more at home with the Ukrainian people (I'm American) than I have any other place I'd lived (Austria, France, and a few Latin American countries). Most of them are very poor by first world standards, but they are all very intelligent, well read, etc.

Organized crime is a large problem, and the current government is a bunch of crooks. It is essentially certain that the current government cheated in thye first election to give their candidate, Yanukovich, more votes against the opposition candidate Yuschenko, and they will most likely do likewise in the runoff.

So here's hoping that the Ukrainian people won't stand for it. If Yanukovich does "win" the runoff, I hope they rise up in protest and overthrow the government like the Georgians did.

Re:Contradicting the popular opinion

[butlerdi]

For the past five years I have been working with Ukranian firms in both Kiev and Lvov and have seen amazing results. The programmers we have used complete projects in weeks as opposed to months, have great pride in their work and often produce documentation in English at least as good as their western counterparts.

I have been living in the Ukraine as well and have also lived in China and India for out'd projects. The corruption is no worse while probably less subtle than in either of these locations.

All in all I believe that the industry in the Ukraine will continue to grow, as much for the sheer quality of the work, attitude of the workforce and a great educational and value system which seems to instill great pride and energy in all that they do (including party).

I for one have had a great time there and am always amazed at how quickly these folks pick up on new technologies and concepts.

Re:Contradicting the popular opinion

[Anonymous Coward]

They are a society with European heritage, a large number of the population understands English, German, French, Italian, etc.) and for most Americans travelling to a typical "outsource" destination, Ukraine is both a familiar and not-so-culture-shocking destination (Compared, say, to China or India, for most Americans)

How can you possibly suggest that India doesn't have a European heritage? The legal and parliamentary system are modelled on the british, a european nation with a long history with India. Ukraine in comparison doesn't yet have rule of law, let alone a common-law legal system.

Re:Contradicting the popular opinion

[swiftstream]

I have to agree with several of your points on this issue, i.e. that the USA and Europe are very different places. You also say that most people in Ukraine do not speak english, which is also true.

I lived in Ukraine for the past two years (just moved to Sweden), and I have to say that while America and Western Europe are very different, Ukraine is more like the former than the latter. I've also lived in France and Austria, in all three countries interacting with locals on a daily basis, and known many others from all over Europe, and I felt much more comfortable with the Ukrainians than with the French or Austrians or people from any other European country.

I do think that Ukraine is in better condition than most of the CIS countries, and that if they shape up a bit--I think that Yuschenko, thye opposition candidate, winning this election is important in that aspect--they have the potential to become a regional leader, though probably not a regional power.

Re:Contradicting the popular opinion

[zarr]

Really ? Are Ukranians even Aryan ?

Please have a look at some facts.

To answer your question, no Ukranians are not "Aryan", but neither are English or German. Maybe you're confusing Indo-Iranian ("Aryan") with Indo-European. Indo-Iranian (Sanskrit, Urdu, Hindi, etc), Italic (Latin, French, Italian, etc), Slavic (Russian, Ukranian, Polish, etc) and Germanic (English, German, etc) are all branches of the Indo-European language tree.

India has the largest number of employed programer

[Anonymous Coward]

US may have the largest number of programmer, but I think India has the largest number of employed programmers.

Lots of pascal in Eastern Europe

[cold fjord]

I've gotten the impression that there is lots of pascal development still going on in Easter Europe, including turbo. That seems to be something of a dying / lost art in the US. I wonder if there is a viable business in maintaining / updating pascal code.

Re:Lots of pascal in Eastern Europe

[Anonymous Coward]

I sure hope not. Pascal is crap, particularly Turbo. Anyone with any brains would have switched to a Linux/BSD years ago.

Re:Lots of pascal in Eastern Europe

[cold fjord]

Interesting advice. Tell me, if somebody gets tired of using gnome, should they switch to Fortran?

It's simple

[Baldrson]

Ukranians didn't have some asshole like Disraeli come through and give away the crown jewels in the form of enforced education in the English language.

Skills

[pipingguy]

I used to have a defineable, pretty unique skill. I can draw stuff as a draftsman on paper. My unique "skill" was pretty much killed by widespread CAD adoption. This major change didn't just affect me, it screwed quite a few hundred thousand other people that had decades of experience and knowledge.

This is not really a problem as it will only take two or three generations of designers to adapt to the new technology. Death will eventually solve this problem.

I could elaborate, but it's probably pointless to do so in this forum where computerization=cool.

Re:Skills

[Zen Punk]

I don't understand...if you are skilled draftsman, why is it that you cannot learn to use a CAD program in order to stay current with industry? You already understand the concepts, and you're here so I assume you aren't afraid of computers...

Engineers and designers don't use CAD because "computerization is cool," they use it becuase it opens up the possibility of professional-level drafting to those who don't have the special skill of drawing, like yourself.

Re:Skills

[pipingguy]

Which CAD program and which third-party apps should be learned? All of them? Because CAD has drastically reduced the need for draftsmen, knowledge of specific software decides whether resumes end up in the OK pile or file 13, no matter how much knowledge one has.

When all that was important was the ability to draw (I can't really figure out a parallel situation for computer-only people, maybe you can) and understand a certain engineering discipline, draftsmen could easily move between jobs. Now their mobility is restricted by specific software package knowledge.

You, for example, might posess all the same skills I have because you can maybe operate a CAD package, from an employer's viewpoint. What's also scary is that it's now easier to fake one's way into a job. 20 years ago it took manual dexterity and hundreds of hours of training and dedication to create a good drawing - today you can just print one out and claim you made it - who's to know the difference?

Re:Skills

[Anonymous Coward]

I used to have a defineable, pretty unique skill. I can draw stuff as a draftsman on paper. My unique "skill" was pretty much killed by widespread CAD adoption. This major change didn't just affect me, it screwed quite a few hundred thousand other people that had decades of experience and knowledge.

Funny - the high-tech firm I work for still employs about a dozen draughtsmen, and they still work directly on paper for the most part. I wasn't aware it was particularly unusual in this regard, either.

Re:Skills

[Wateshay]

So what, exactly, is your point? Progress eliminates the need for some skill sets, while creating others. That's the way it's always been, and that's the way it always will be. The only way to guarantee that we'll always need the same skills is to stop all progress. If the old way of doing it is better, then there will always be a need for the old skills, even if they are drastically reduced in number. You should always be looking forward to keeping current with the future, though. Take your spare time to learn CAD programs. They're all somewhat similar, so pick a few of the most common and get a passing skill in all of them (enough to be able to put them on your resume). Couple that with your old-school drafting skills and experience, and you're going to look a lot better to (many, but not all) employers than the hotshot just out of school. Any good firm worth their salt is going to want to have a few old-schoolers around to teach the young'uns.

Me, I practice what I preach. I skilled in a wide variety of programming languages, both new and old, and make a point of getting at least a little skill in any that look like up and comers. I'm also a published writer, and if the software falls through I can probably make a living as a tech-writer...and if all else falls through, I flip a mean burger.

Re:Skills

[Anonymous Coward]

Pro/Engineer would be the one to learn, followed by Bentley Microstation, followed by Dassault CATIA (catia should be before microstation but for political idiocies). No one competent in one of those three and without ethical problems with military work will be unemployed.

Learn AutoCAD too, but don't waste too much time on it unless you want to work in the SME space - it's the Microsoft Word of CAD. Pro/Engineer would be the Adobe or Quark. Plus, almost every Pro/Engineer-using company I've seen has been a Linux shop!

OpenCASCADE is the TeX :-)

Re:Skills

[angel'o'sphere]

I used to have a defineable, pretty unique skill. I can draw stuff as a draftsman on paper. My unique "skill" was pretty much killed by widespread CAD adoption. This major change didn't just affect me, it screwed quite a few hundred thousand other people that had decades of experience and knowledge.

So you want to claim, that a CAD system makes a technical drawer?

I claim, without technical drawing education a CAD system is no use at all. There are standards to comply to, whcih the CAD system usuall does not know or can not enforce. Further problems may lie in the specification of the thing to draw which only an expert thechnical drawer can see.

A CAD system is nothing more than an advanced pencil and ruler!


I could elaborate, but it's probably pointless to do so in this forum where computerization=cool.

Unfortunatly I know people like your (tech drawers, who never could cope with the fact that now CAD systems are available).
CAD systems make the users of them more productive. You had the chance to became a CAD user, I'm sure. but you sticked to the old way and complained (like the guy I know). Instead of "upgrading" your skills beyond compasses, ruler and pencil you put your head into the sand and decided deliberately NOT TO STAY UP TO DATE.

This is happening since about 10,000 years. Its called "progress". It happend to your father and your grandpa ... and now to you. Its your fault, not theirs.

angel'o'sphere

P.S. yes I wrote a CAD system ... for geodaesic drawings ... no way that a guy without a geo sciense diploma was using it.

Re:Skills

[tjlsmith]

You touched a nerve with this one.

When I was in high school in the 70's and did drafting I could see any object on the paper no matter how many thin tracing lines I used. It just jumped out of the web. I could draw any 3D object at all, any perspective, you name it.

But all my asstard teacher could complain about was my lettering and the fact that my corners weren't perfect.

I could hardly wait for CAD to come along.

Re:Skills

[pipingguy]

[Personal observation follows] Many people remember drafting and woodworking as "shop" classes in high school. Probably most people disliked drafting the most, as the teachers tended to be anal about detail and often did not recognize native talent.

This tended to weed out the non-nerdly (you know, those not fascinated with pencil grades, mylar thickness, blueprinting technicalities, etc.)

You sound like an artist-type. I imagine that you might have been a great technical illustrator if your asstard had not discouraged you.

My point is (and always has been) that adoption of CAD distances people from their natural born talents. Eveything has to be done through an artificial interface.

I don't consider myself to be a Luddite as I use computers every day (and enjoy it). I just feel that a lot of tradition and knowledge was lost in the rush to computerize everything.

How about Nigeria?

[rahard]

With the amount of spam generated from Nigeria,
I would have thought that Nigeria would made it to the list.
No?

Re:How about Nigeria?

[Anonymous Coward]

Nigeria and Ghana don't have the communications infrastructure to maintain this industry. They outsourced the actual spamming to USA and the scam money collection to Netherlands and Spain.

Re:lame sig

[someone1234]

You confuse me, is it "a wake" or "awake"?

CAD software

[wombatmobile]

.

CAD software is good if you make a mistake or if you want to make a derivative drawing. You don't have to start all over again.

And CAD software is more fun than death.

Give it a whirl. You'll have plenty of time for death later.

Went to Ukraine...

[stibles]

I actually went to Kiev in 2001 to start an outsourcing company. It was a FASCINATING if not profitable experience. Kiev is somewhat cosmopolitan for an Eastern European city though not Paris. We started a joint venture with a CompSci department at the University of Kiev. The first class of recruits would probably have gotten a B as a group with a couple of A students and a bunch of Bs and a couple of Cs. The educational system for tech there is very rigorous. These guys were ready to go in C++ but we had them all take certs in Java to have things covered. Sadly, we were underfunded and when the bubble burst, trying to sell a software service contract for a startup in Kiev to someone in the US was nigh impossible. One year and the team took their terminals as severance. Helluva learning experience.

Re:Went to Ukraine...

[crackmama]

I would be interested in speaking with you about your experience. My company currently has a relationship with a Ukrainian outfit, but we were looking at alternatives in perhaps other parts of Ukraine including Kiev. Could you give your contact information? You can email me: sm@marketplaceearthBLAH.com and remove BLAH from the address. Thanks!

Re:Went to Ukraine...

[ZurichPrague]

I'm interested in hearing more about this. I'm starting an outsourcing startup in the Ukraine in the next few months and can use all the help I can get. Could you email me? XDavidBroderickX@yahoo.com (removing the X's) thanks, David

I am sure...

[jotaeleemeese]

... you are an expert about the quality of Ukranian education....

flawed logic

[Sai Babu]

Yes, I get it
I's kind of like all thre world class runners that come from the countries (malaysia, korea, taiwan, indonesia, haiti) that manufacture most of the running shoes.

What alien writing style

[Anonymous Coward]

Can you cite me a book or website that is an example of this Indian English style that is totally alien?

Kvasar-Micro

[DmitryRoslyakov]

Kvasar-Micro, Ukraine's largest info tech company...

Kvasar-Micro is moving their headquarters to Moscow. It's demonstrative :)

Yeah right

[Anonymous Coward]

Sometimes at department clothing stores when I am there with someone and not shopping myself. I try to see if there is any article of clothing made in a wealthy capitalist country like the United States where I live. I would even settle to find a tage from Italy, United Kingdom, Spain, Germany, Japan, etc. All I find is tags for clothes from Malayasia, China, Philippines, Haiti, etc.

If you only buy clothes made in the United States you will be near naked.

Aw cummon...mod the parent up

[Anonymous Coward]

Why hasn't this been moded up yet? Y'all a bunch of Seinfeld haters? It's also an oblique reference to the game Risk. Geeks like Risk.

Re:Aw cummon...mod the parent up

[Anonymous Coward]

IF you really think those 7 words will make us remember that seinfeld scene, then you're an idiot.

Expensive...

[KontinMonet]

A few months ago, we tendered for some work in the region of US$2m to be outsourced. The best prices came from Poland and Bulgaria. Then Ukraine, then India. We did site visits to all but India (their quote was off the radar) to determine their capabilities. We were not impressed with the infrastructure or general atmosphere in the Ukraine although their guys seemed good - it was too much of a risk and we could see it costing us money. Poland looked good but Bulgaria was cheaper. What to do?

And then, of course, the inevitable happened - the project got cancelled...

Re:Expensive...

[crackmama]

I would be interested in speaking with you about your experience. My company currently has a relationship with a Ukrainian outfit, but we were looking at alternatives in other countries as the culture in Ukraine doesn't lend itself to customer service. Could you give your contact information? You can email me: sm@marketplaceearthBLAH.com and remove BLAH from the address. Thanks!

Irish, by any chance?

[Anonymous Coward]

And you are... Irish? If not, I don't get what history you are coming from.

Re:Irish, by any chance?

[Anonymous Coward]

Could be Irish, Welsh, Scots(Gaelic) or Cornish. Most of the folks of British descent in the US had ancestors that left in the face of opression and economic degradation-i.e. the clearances which commenced in that jerk Disraeli running the show in Britain.

The first computer built in continental Europe ..

[vilbel]

was build 1936 in Germany (Zuse Z1) and not 1951 in Ukraine as BusinessWeek claimed.

Re:Ukrainian tech heritage??

[Anonymous Coward]

The poster said Ukrainians can't see why they shouldn't be the next big thing in the tech sector. You are the only person to post with the word Chernobyl yet, and still you aren't making the point: WHO WANTS TO OUTSOURCE TECH PROJECTS TO THE LAND OF CHERNOBYL?

Not that it is their fault or anything, but having Chernobyl as their single most famous tech event isn't the good kind of brandname recognition!

Okay, maybe their second most famous contribution to tech is Sikorsky. But that is way back...

Mafia gangs rule Ukraine, white boy.

[Zhlobko]

Sounds like you've never actually been there...

It's a tough place. REALLY tough, whitey.

Only an idiot could believe that two mafia clans fighting for control constitutes democracy in Ukraine. Even if one side mouths the mid-90s US sponsored crap about markets, democracy and a Protestant Jesus.

Same goes for Afghanistan, or Iraq,for that matter.

Ukraine and Russia now have the highest growth rate of HIV in the world, largely from injecting drug use. It is dirt poor in most parts. Like eat-what-you-grow subsistence poor, often with no running water,and horse drawn carriages.It used to be middle class before it became "free".

Western cooperation? I don't think so! Most opinion polls indicate the majority of Ukrainians would like to rejoin with Russia and Belarus - a far greater number than want to join the EU.

Stop reading shitty business magazines and read some reputable opinion polls.

Or watch a film called Lilya 4 Ever. THAT is what Ukraine in like.

At best,Ukraine will one day end up with business running like it does in Italy, IMHO.

Re:Mafia gangs rule Ukraine, white boy.

[swiftstream]

As someone who has been to and lived in Ukraine, and gotton to know and talk to many of the ppor Ukrainians you talk about, I think you're being a bit pessimistic. There's no doubt that mafia is a problem, and HIV is a problem, and people are poor--but they are intelligent! These people are not stupid, and with some help, if necessary, they are more than capable of running a country without widespread corruption and the like, which is what is going on right now. They need a chance, and the current government isn't giving it to them. Things can only get better if the opposition wins.

As for the bit about opinion polls--I have a friend who did a doctoral thesis about this kind of issue in Ukraine and a couple other CIS countries, and the polls that she took demonstrated that most Ukrainians did not want to rejoin Russia, but rather that they wanted to be independent. Some people in the American Embassy, who know a lot more about what's going on than most people do (unfortunately, most of it is classified) tell me that there was apperently major election fraud by the current government in favor of Yanukovich--basically, if there hadn't been, there is no way he could have gotten anything near 40% of the popular vote. Since one of his basic points is closer ties to Russia, this would seem to indicate that most Ukrainians do not want this.

Re:Mafia gangs rule Ukraine, white boy.

[Zhlobko]

Um...I've been to and lived in Ukraine too, and have many relatives there.

And I'm doing a doctoral thesis about it too.

People are smart - they have to be to survive. Have you spent much time outside of Kiev, or more to the point Lvov? Seen people lying drunk as meat puppets on the mud roads of collective farms? (yes, they still call them that).

I'd suggest most US analysis frames Ukraine in Cold War terms, with the explicit aim of separating Ukraine away from Russia.

It's not really a secret the polls were rigged. Equally, there have been allegations of US involvement in trying to bring down Yanukovich. And, visa regimes to Russia have recently been relaxed, and the cheap oil has started to flow. Kuchma, Yanukovich and Putin are not nice guys.

But neither is the other side. Yushchenko is playing the democrat card, same as Yeltin's buddies did in Russia mid-90s. As in theat case, the only question is who will let the US priveliged status in buying up local businesses, and who will allow certain Russia mafia gangs priveliged status in buying up local businesses.

If a US dominated market is central to your definition of democracy, that's nice. Don't work in Baghdad. Don't work it Dnipropetrovsk. The brothers will work it out.

I also challenge the accuracy of your Embassy based friends analysis. I'm too lazy to look up recent references, but I know of at least the 4 polls taken wihin the last 12 months that point to about 60% of Ukrainians wanting closer ties with Russia/Belarus and only about 15% wanting closer ties with EU.

From the Western diplomatic staffers I've met, they mainly see themselves as part of a Civilizing Mission. And have little idea of the truly scary stuff happening beyond their secure four walls. Again, as in Baghdad, they don't have to live with the consequences of the crap they bring down on local people.

As the homiez round Donetsk say...

"Don't y'all come down to Harlem no mo..."

Re:Mafia gangs rule Ukraine, white boy.

[Anonymous Coward]

I haven't lived in Ukraine, but...
I speak Russian almost fluently. Close enough to fluent for most situations.
I have a Ukrainian girlfriend and I've spent 5 weeks there over the past 2 years.
60% want closer ties to Russia/Belarus? Maybe... but 20-25% of the population is ethnic Russian and the current government is oppressing the use of the Russian language, so I can see that those people will want stronger ties. The old people bemoan the fall of the USSR and they still long for ties to "Mother Russia", even though "mom" looks down on all of her old ex-USSR "kids".

If you talk to any younger people outside of the Russian dominated areas, you will get a completely different opinion. Of course, the polls you saw may have been government produced.

Ukraine? where??

[Monf]

let's see, the Ukraine???

is that near Elbonia??

Re:The first computer built in continental Europe

[Guy Harris]

was build 1936 in Germany (Zuse Z1) and not 1951 in Ukraine as BusinessWeek claimed.

Business Week should have said "stored program computer", or "Von Neumann computer", as per the timeline on this page. (Emphasis on "continental Europe"; the first Von Neumann machine ever, as far as I know, was built at the University of Manchester.)

Sergey Alekseyevich Lebedev, the head of the group that developed that machine (MESM), was born in Russia; that group also created the Big-Ass Computer series (OK, that's not an exact translation of "Bolshaja Elektronno-Schetnaja Mashina" :-)). There's a BESM-6 Nostalgia page about the sixth series of BESM machines. (It's a bit tricky to do the usual sort of buffer overflow tricks on those machines:

Each memory word had two parity bits - one for each half, the combined parity for the whole word must have been odd. Thus, the distinction between code and data was achieved: one had the halfword parities even-odd, the other - odd-even, so code overwriting or branches to data got caught as soon as an offending instruction was executed. (The program had to ask the kernel to switch the mode of the store instruction to "code" before generating executable code, or to use a special system call, so using self-modifying code was discouraged.);

Ireland? WTF?

[Chembryl]

Yeah because I can hire those paddys for a few $s a go AND they'll thank me!

Russian brains

[geordieboy]

I've often felt that there is something in the makeup of the slavic brain which creates the potential for feats of mathematical and technical wizardry unavailable to the western mind. Several factors could be at work. Just as Murray Gell Mann taught himself particle physics from dusty old textbooks in second hand bookstores, perhaps the use of outdated educational materials in dilapidated classrooms fosters extreme tenacity and originality in predisposed minds. Or perhaps the lack of exposure to brain-toxic Western influences, the Britneys and the fast food, coupled with good wholesome fresh produce (including copious quantities of potatoes - boil em, mash em, stick em in a stew) leads to a growth spurt in the relevant areas of the cortex. I for one have welcomed, and continue to welcome, our Slavic overlords.

Re:Russian brains

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you're on to something. Slavs certainly know how to put up with adversity and live without.

Re:Russian brains

[Anonymous Coward]

Yep, could be something to that.. Just as there is something about the African brain that leads to...um, ghettoes.

What Unit?

[boatboy]

Sure, maybe the 4th largest by quantity, but the US has the largest programmer population by volume.

Re:What Unit?

[ishmalius]

Damn, you beat me with the joke opportunity. I was going to ask why the average Ukranian programmer was 4th in the size category. Oh well, better luck next time!

It is very much like the Rodney Dangerfield quip:

• Q:How many people work here?
• A:One out of every four.

Heh.

Great Women!

[Anonymous Coward]

They look much better than the women we have here in Canada: the girls/women here try to look as ugly and mean as they can, and are trying hard to be un-womenlike overall. I want good-looking old-fashioned women. Feminists go away.

They also have..

[johansalk]

The prettiest girls there are; they all have the Mila Jovovich look with the slanted eyebrows.

its true

[Anonymous Coward]

I actually own a large outsoucing company here. The name of which I won't mention so i cant be accused of advertising. It is actualyl true. nearly every kid leaving school can program. Their brain power never ceases to amaze me. I moved to this country to start my business speaking no ukrainian or russian, I managed to put my team together when they also spoke no english. Six months later they all spoke fluent English and i was still stuck with pigeon russian. :)

Great people, and yes the chicks are ridiculously hot.

Ireland???

[WaterDamage]

Why do you think Ireland will be a contender? Show us some proof or statistics.

Ireland is a well developed country and fairly expensive just like the rest of Western Europe. Unless there something you know that no one else knows I'm getting the impression that you just pulled the idea out of your ass.

Irish Perspective

[totierne]

Ireland is pretty big in software, though we do not have five year programming degrees like in some CIS countries. Per head of population there are more commercial programmers in Ireland than in Ukraine, United States, Russia or India. Maybe not as high a percentage as the Silicon Valley area.

Ireland should be offshoring to other countries but it is not, I think low and intermediate software management are complete control freeks (compared even to programmers) and outsourcing would be forced upon them by higher management rather than on their own initiative.

I tried to drum up a little interest in outsourceing to Belarus, where my bride is from, plenty of interest from Belarus software companies who had previously done outsourcing work, zero interest from the Irish software industry.

Where to hire Ukrainian programmer?

[Anonymous Coward]

I am starting a new SW biz in USA, and wouldn't mind hiring a programmer from the Ukraine...how does one find contacts or post an ad???

Outsourcing my personal project

[patternjuggler]

I kind of resent the fact that all these huge multi-billion dollar corporations get to save all this money with cheap overseas labor, when there is no parallel opportunity for me as an individual. I hear that there are programmers who will work for $5/hour (I don't know about the Ukraine)- it would be really great if I could jumpstart my sourceforge project by getting say 20 hours of programming time from someone for $100, or if I could do the same for art assets or anything else. Hell, if all the programming in this country is going to be outsourced while the management stays here, having this outsourcing management experience is going to look a lot better on my resume than if I had done all the coding myself.

Seriously, I realize that Sourceforge has the paypal thing which probably is more for rewarding work that has already been done, but there also needs to be some kind of micro-contract agency that allows me to get a set amount of work done in the future.

Problems with Ukraine and East Europe in general

[Anonymous Coward]

They are overrun with gangsters. Operating any kind of business is full of perils.

The myth of the psychokillers in shiny nylon track suits is unfortunately all too real.

Oh, and try to get a contract enforced.

And don't let them near any database with credit card numbers.

Other than that, sure, go right ahead.

Ireland a contender????

[donnacha]

In terms of revenue, Ireland is already Europe's biggest exporter of software, not bad for a country with 1/16th of the UK's population.

They got there by having a well-educated, English-speaking workforce, a large number of returning emigres with experience working in America etc and a government willing to offer generous welcome packages to international corporations and Europe's lowest rate of corporate tax.

India hopes to emulate that because the middle classes there are also English-speaking. Sort of.

The Ukraine will never become a serious contender because

1) How many Ukrainians emigres, once they've got out, would want to return there?

2) Judging by the spam originating in the Ukraine, their English isn't that hot.

3) Having a good Mathematical education isn't as much of a plus for software production as you might think, I'd rate widespread, in-the-home computer usage and exposure to the Internet far higher.

4) The biggee, government corruption. I, and most other entrepreneurs, simply won't do business in countries where the government doesn't have a serious commitment to tackling corruption. That automatically rules out the Russian Federation countries as Kleptocracies, by definition, cannot tackle corruption.

Re:Ireland a contender????

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, the irish government are paragons of virtue.

The Ukranian problem would be that they're not as GOOD at corruption as our wonderful Bertieriffic parliament. I've worked in that part of the world - it's not that they're corrupt, it's that they're really poor at being cheating bastards compared to Irish people.

Re:Ireland a contender????

[donnacha]

Yeah, the irish government are paragons of virtue.

The Ukranian problem would be that they're not as GOOD at corruption as our wonderful Bertieriffic parliament. I've worked in that part of the world - it's not that they're corrupt, it's that they're really poor at being cheating bastards compared to Irish people.

Well, in a sense, that's my point; countries have to reach a point of maturity where the leading politicians realise that they can better bolster their power and line their pockets by being corrupt from the top on behalf of business rather than having layer after chaotic layer of petty corruption that prevents business taking root. Rather than seek bribes from corporations wanting to set up in Ireland, successive Irish governments craftily reversed the bribe and channeled undisclosed amounts of tax-payer money into free factories and campuses for corporations and, in turn, used the jobs created to persuade the electorate that they were doing a great job. I remember a particularly aware friend working for Corel being dismayed that practically his entire salary was actually paid by the Irish people.

The potential will remain there

[danila]

My view on this is that this huge potential will remain just that - potential, without translating into anything tangible, like a huge booming offshore programming industry like in India.

There are many reasons for this, but I'll list the main ones only:

1) The government doesn't give a squat about programming industry or economy in general. They won't care about it unless there are some money to be had for them. It won't happen unless the industry magically develops by itself and even then will only be to its detriment.
2) Yes, Ukraine is better than most other CIS countries, but that only means they are neck-deep in shit instead of being totally submerged like Uzbekistan, Kyrgistan, Tajikistan and other whateverstans. Ukraine is worse off than Russia and that's saying something.
3) These graduates aren't good. You all know about problems in American educational system, but in Ukraine (and other CIS countries) people who graduate from schools are often simply functionally illiterate. They are just going through the motions without actually learning or understanding anything. You may think cheating and grade inflation became problems in the US. You aint's seen nothing until you visit CIS. These 50000 graduates are really bad programmers (ditto for 100000 in Russia).
4) Obviously, with such a huge pool of programmers there are bound to be some who are really great. That's why Russia wins so many programming competitions. This doesn't mean that the other 99.9% of programmers are any good. So forget the stereotypes. Ukrainian/Russian programmers suck.
5) You need good management to do this kind of business and the business education in Ukraine is basically as bad as IT education.
6) Ukraine doesn't have good image abroad and noone really does anything to change it, so it would be hard to persuade the prospecting clients.

So the only possible result is that the IT industry in Ukraine will remain quite small and insignificant in the international market. Sad, but true. Ditto for Russia.

Re:The potential will remain there

[Anonymous Coward]

Uhhh... Nice assertions. Care to back any of your statements up?

Re:The potential will remain there

[danila]

Theoretically I can, but mostly you just have to take my word for it, because I live in Russia, know enough to understand how the political and economican mechanisms work in CIS, because many of my classmates work in offshore programming (because I graduated from math school), because I taught in a university and know firsthand how corrupt and rotten the system is, because I worked as a financial analyst in technology sector of an investment bank here, etc., etc. Just take my word for it, Ukraine will NOT become a notable player in the global IT market.

NZ

[pommiekiwifruit]

Well New Zealand has slipped to #2 on that list, but Finland has Nokia and NZ has... um... Weta?

Not being corrupt is all fine and dandy, but having a decent sized local market (like China, India, USA, EU) is a lot more helpful.

I swear to dog I read churn as church

[Anonymous Coward]

I am glad I was wrong... You never know these days.

Quantity does count for some things

[EmbeddedJanitor]

For the most part I agree with the parent. We don't need more idiots writing code. A few good programmers always outdoes a hundred bad ones. That might be the truth, but the truth does not matter: perception does.

That quality is important is not very apparent to most managers (thought they might give lip service to quality). Quality is a very intangible and can't be crunched through a spreadsheet like quantity can. CEO or whatever thinks: "Hey I can get 15 Ukranians for one US programmer. Cool"

There are however some/many programming tasks that are not very challenging and can be done by any dope.

NB I'm not at all saying here that Ukranians are dopes. What reason is there to believe that they're any worse than programmers in any other country? It is only a perception (not a truth) that US programmers are better than others (ie. the argument that you pay more for Americans because they're better).

1337 h4x0r must be the same

[kezze]

Although written with the Ukrainian alphabet...

Trade deficit = non-issue

[AtariAmarok]

The trade deficit itself is a nonissue, as there is no actual defecit. Always, something is being traded of equal/close-to-equal value.

The worst problem with trade that needs solving is the existence of tariffs, quotas, etc. These need to be removed, period.

Re:Trade deficit = non-issue

[randall_burns]

What is being "traded" are various financial instruments--mainly US government debt.

You can make an argument for "Free trade" in the absence of governmental deficits. In this case, the Bush administration has a program of Guns, Butter--and tax cuts too! financed by lots of debt-this is in fact a wholesale liquidation of assets.

The US government can borrow so much due to some old arrangements-the US dollar is the reserve currency of many foreign banks. That could change-and the American public would have a rather rapid, rude awakening to the way the world works.

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[zhou2]

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