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Wireless Carriers looking for Elbow Room

pillageplunder writes "Businessweek is reporting on the upcoming Wireless Spectrum Auctions. Over the next two years (Starting in Jan 2005) the FCC will auction off enough spectrum that will more than double the amount currently available. Estimates range anywhere from 50 to 70 billion dollars will be raised by these auctions. Short term, it should improve the quality of Cell-phone, long term, it should open up opportunities for so-called 3G services to take off."

107 comments

  1. Hams? by tajmorton · · Score: 5, Interesting

    And what about the hammers? Will they be elbowed out?

    --
    Tell the truth and you won't have so much to remember.
    1. Re:Hams? by Kenja · · Score: 5, Funny
      "And what about the hammers? Will they be elbowed out?"

      The ham radio groups where going to stage a protest, but they all got winded when trying to climb the stairs out of their parents basement. Then there was a Babalon Five marathon to watch.

      I kid.

      --

      "Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
    2. Re:Hams? by enigmals1 · · Score: 0, Troll

      HA HA HA!! GOOD ONE! :D

    3. Re:Hams? by VE3ECM · · Score: 1
      www.hamsexy.com

      Best ham site on the web. The image galleries are especially gut-busting.

      Go check it out.

    4. Re:Hams? by r2q2 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I don't believe any of the wireless spectrum is being sold by the FCC that will influence ham radio. Besides the ARRL does have some lobbying power to try to prevent this. They don't mention they are selling off part of the ham radio spectrum. Although most likely any new spectrum for hammers has a small chance of being available to hammers. Most likely they will be elbowed out by the telecom sector.

      --
      My UID is prime is yours?
    5. Re:Hams? by oscrmyer · · Score: 0

      Why do the Hammers want that spectrum. What range is g3? I know it has to be higher them 1900mhz so your looking at a range of 1 miles, and will not do hammers any good.

    6. Re:Hams? by VE3ECM · · Score: 1
      Hams already have a small slice up there.

      This isn't an amateur radio issue.

      Oh, and P.S.... 1.9Ghz doesn't have a "1 mile" range... range is all a function of geography, and wattage... there's lots of satellites that operate way higher than 1.9Ghz.

  2. Why should the FCC Sell? by stecoop · · Score: 5, Interesting

    This is a pet peeve of mine. Why should the FCC be able to sell spectrum for a region giving basically a monopoly to the bidder. I would much prefer that the FCC leases the spectrum to vendors and the income goes back to the people that rightfully own it (the land owners over the given region - you and me). It isn't the FCC's property to sell and it doesn't force vendors to address issues fast enough.

    1. Re:Why should the FCC Sell? by Pxtl · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Besides that, I have the creeping sensation that this will just be used to further proprietise the US cellular communication system, pushing interoperability even further away. Company X uses expanded protocol Z that uses band ranges Y and so on, making it harder for customers to switch providers.

    2. Re:Why should the FCC Sell? by gargonia · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I agree. Nevertheless, it doesn't surprise me that this is taking place. The government has had a pretty dismal record for quite some time now regarding stewardship of public resources, and I think this falls under that category. It seems everywhere you look these days there's a "get mine and get out" mentality. It's prevalent in both business and government. I don't know if the people who do this kind of thing don't realize what kind of long term damage they're doing to the country and the economy or if they just don't care. It's a shame either way.

      --

      -- Gargonia
      Never play leapfrog with a unicorn.

    3. Re:Why should the FCC Sell? by maxpuppy · · Score: 0

      Right on. The Federal Government does not own anything. This is the United States. How can so many not get this?

    4. Re:Why should the FCC Sell? by Vellmont · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I've never liked the idea that landowners somehow owning the spectrum over their land. Does that mean that people who own massive tracts of dessert would get large amounts of money from the FCC for satelite TV (even though no one is utilizing that spectrum in those empty tracts of land)? I don't have a cogent argument against it, but the whole idea leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

      My problem with the spectrum auction model is it encourages companies to buy up spectrum only for the purpose of keeping it from others companies. If you own the spectrum you should be forced to put it to use within N years by X% of the public in that area, otherwise it reverts back to the FCC.

      --
      AccountKiller
    5. Re:Why should the FCC Sell? by Woogiemonger · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It isn't the FCC's property to sell.

      Well, I agree and disagree. The FCC being part of the Federal government is ideally a representation of the people. Politics aside, that's democracy for you. When the FCC gets money, it's basically money for our government, and indirectly, us. As for whether they lease or sell, or how exactly the money is used, that's an issue which you can protest through voting and lobbying.

    6. Re:Why should the FCC Sell? by the+morgawr · · Score: 4, Interesting
      Actually the land owners don't own the spectrum and never had. That's why the FCC was set up.

      IANAL but my understanding is:

      When someone starts using land they have the rights to everything they need to use it in the manner they want. Tresspass and nusance laws prevent people from interfering with your use of the land. So you can't have someone walk through your yard because it is physically invasive to your property, but you can have someone broadcast radio through the airwaves or fly a plane way overhead because neither of those impeades your use of the property in anyway.

      In all likelyhood radio would have developed a similar set of common laws (this was all getting worked out in the courts). Where the first radio station in a region was allowed to use the band they were broadcasting on and could sue anyone emitting harmful interferance. However Congress became concerned that the legal costs would hold the industry back (there were concerns that radio companies could even make money), so they made the FCC.

      --
      The policy of the United States is worse than bad---it is insane. -- Ludwig von Mises, Economic Policy(1959)
    7. Re:Why should the FCC Sell? by cmowire · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Or, even better, give the spectrum back to the people, who rightfully own it.

      Like put some spectrum that's solely devoted to a single family of 802.11-like standards set by the IEEE, with no microwaves, cordless phones, etc. to gunk it up.

      Or build allocations around spread-spectrum technologies. Remember, several spread-spectrum networks can exist on the same frequency bands, if done properly, and other networks appear only as noise. If networks are prevented from actively fighting with each other, it's an awfully good way to reward carriers for putting up more access points over a metro area and also to reward more efficent encoding schemes.

      The problem is that the spectrum policy made rough sense when you had no choice but to step on other transmissions. And it's lately been seen as a hidden way for the government to make money. But it's not very good for business, nor is it good for us.

    8. Re:Why should the FCC Sell? by stecoop · · Score: 1

      You are correct in the money respect. But the real issues are that vendors don't have incentives to keep the customers happy under the region other than a few mad customers. If the users/owners could come into a unified agreement in the region so that they could boot a bad wireless vendor than said vendors would have a much higher incentive of resolving dropped calls or no service.

    9. Re:Why should the FCC Sell? by iminplaya · · Score: 1

      It isn't the FCC's property to sell and it doesn't force vendors to address issues fast enough.

      So very true. I also wonder if any of this will help us produce a wireless internet free of the ISP's stranglehold they have over access today. Of course it won't. I also believe that what is said about the spectrum being a finite resource is a lot of bull. The only thing finite about it is our knowledge. This is just an attempt to create scarcity where there is none. Why? For money and power of course. Our present knowledge of physics is running into a brick wall. I'ts becoming time to re-think our theories of matter and inertia. There's something wrong here, and I sure haven't figured out what it is, but if I find out, you all will be the first to know :)

      --
      What?
    10. Re:Why should the FCC Sell? by dr_dank · · Score: 2, Funny

      Does that mean that people who own massive tracts of dessert

      This prompts the question: Do people have rights to the airspace over their giant brownies?

      --
      Where does the school board find them and why do they keep sending them to ME?
    11. Re:Why should the FCC Sell? by VeriTea · · Score: 1
      That's exactly how it works. Every license has mandatory build out dates. For the PCS auctions, the first build out date was 5 years from the day the license was issued. By that point the licensee had to cover 60% of the population in the license block.

      --
      --- There are two kinds of people, those who accept dogmas and know it, and those who accept dogmas and don't know it
    12. Re:Why should the FCC Sell? by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Actually the land owners don't own the spectrum and never had. That's why the FCC was set up.

      Land owners (generally) own their land from the core of the Earth out to the edge of the atmosphere. The FAA was designed to essentially claim emminent domain in a type of confiscation of this resource. The same was done with the FCC and wireless. These resources are not generally used, and make much more sense to be managed as a public resource, but that doesn't mean that they aren't still "owned" by the land owner, even if they can't actually use them.

    13. Re:Why should the FCC Sell? by anakin876 · · Score: 1

      Actually it depends on the what you are buying. Oftentimes the land is sold, but not the mineral rights, or water rights. If you really want to own the land all the way down, you have to be sure your contract specifies those things.

    14. Re:Why should the FCC Sell? by Vellmont · · Score: 1

      Sure, but coverage doesn't imply usage. You could put up a few towers in high population density areas and put pricing out of the stratospere to satisfy the FCC. It's then cheap to hold onto your spectrum .

      --
      AccountKiller
    15. Re:Why should the FCC Sell? by spagetti_code · · Score: 1
      I dont believe selling spectrum is in the best interest of consumers - its a big cash grab by the govt. Suppliers will be forced to pay ridiculous sums because they feel that they will be left out if they dont.

      The end result, just like last time, is huge debts piled upon telecoms companies. Who gets to pay for that - either us (consumers) or us (investors who lose their shirts when the companies tip over).

  3. 3G... not interested mate! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    Here in Europe where we manage to have a single standard and phones work with each other we had 3G auctions a few years back nearly crippling the mobile operators, and still hardly anything on them, no one wants video conversations, you can watch music videos on it, but take up is pretty slack... the government made a killing tho...

  4. learn from other countries by d_strand · · Score: 5, Interesting

    auctioning spectrum is a bad idea. It's better to give it away for free to the companies that promises the best services to it's customers.

    Many countries in europe auctioned off 3G-spectrum a few years ago, and the money involved was insane... many of the "winners" weren't able to build any networks from lack of funds after the crazy fees they payed for the spectrum.

    Some countries instead held "beauty contests" where the companies that promised best area coverage where given spectrum for free (the promises must be kept with the threat of huge fines of course)

    1. Re:learn from other countries by anotherzeb · · Score: 1

      In the UK the ridiculous amounts paid have meant that the mobile telecoms companies are all having to make budget cuts, in some cases leading to job cuts.

      --
      Good luck sometimes arrives disguised as bad
    2. Re:learn from other countries by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      I do agree for 100%.
      We were so late in Belgium, that the market prices became more reasonable & that's the main reason why our phone company in Belgium didn't have those large financial problems (like all the other (larger) telecom operators in Europe).

    3. Re:learn from other countries by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So what happens if the one of the companies that "won" the auction goes under? Does the government have to give the money back, or do they get to auction it off for a second time?

    4. Re:learn from other countries by TheUnFounded · · Score: 1

      Interestingly, the FCC already is already giving away spectrum, albeit rather reluctantly and with a lot of restrictions. Research on UWB (and I mean REAL UWB, not the commercially hyped UWB) is going on right now, to create a method for cell phones to use extremely narrow ( this guy's papers if you want to know more about it...

      Coming soon to you: Your new UWB-based cell phone!

    5. Re:learn from other countries by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The amount the UK got from it they could have fibered every home but no they waste it on fat cats etc. Even Sweden told them they wasted it. UK is a fat cat haven.

    6. Re:learn from other countries by d_strand · · Score: 1
      So what happens if the one of the companies that "won" the auction goes under? Does the government have to give the money back, or do they get to auction it off for a second time?
      depends on the country i guess. I can only speak for sweden (which had beauty contests), where 1 of the winners (that *didn't* pay any fees mind you) still decided that it wasnt worth it and simply handed the licence back to the government with no penalties. The companies that kept their licences will pay fines if they're late or cant deliver though

      In any case, knowing governments I'd say the chance of any company getting their money back is zero.
  5. They should be renting it out, not selling it. by kenf · · Score: 5, Informative

    The gomment should be renting spectrum, not selling it outright. That way we would have an income stream , not just one payment to squander.

    1. Re:They should be renting it out, not selling it. by Ironsides · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Maybe so, but with renting you have a lot of other problems. Two ways of renting:

      Lease is renewed every X years (like renting an apartment):
      The gov decides to up the rent by 100% this year and you can't pay.
      You do something and the gov decides to evict you or not renew your lease. (think politics)

      Every time you have to re-bid for the same spectrum:
      Congrads, you've built an entire infrasture around your frequencies, but you didn't get the same/any frequencies this time and you are up the creek.

      Probably some others on a similar note out there but that is the general idea.

      --
      Fly me to the moon Let me sing among those stars Let me see what spring is like On jupiter and mars
  6. w00t! by jmank88 · · Score: 0

    so could this mean that my Nextel phone will stop making my TV go crazy everytime i get a call? -jordan

  7. "3G" refers to... by Eric+Giguere · · Score: 4, Funny

    Multiple choice:

    a) the cost of a new wireless device that supports this technology
    b) the average damage to your car when you hit a tree while trying to watch a video on your phone
    c) per-year productivity lost to phone-based instant messaging
    d) your new monthly cellphone bill

    Eric
    JavaScript != Java
  8. Over-spectrumed by HexaByte · · Score: 0

    Will the cell phone companies soon be over-spectrumed, just like the landline people are now pipelined? Maybe that will cut the costs down to $15/mo for cell phones.

    Then, MAYBE I'll get one.

    --
    HexaByte - he's a square and a half!
  9. Public Space rather than private by WindBourne · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It would be far more useful to create more public airwaves rather than private and watch what happens. The 900,2.4G, and 5.2G have created a large number of innovations that have been resulted in a large number of products.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  10. Not really accurate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    The article isn't very well written. It says that more spectrum will help carriers increase coverage. That isn't true. It would allow some carriers to provide native coverage (as well as sell service) in some new markets, but more licenced spectrum won't increase coverage at all. Spectrum increases capacity. That means less system busies and the ability to let customers use more of the system's capacity for things like data.

    It also suggests that Verizon and Cingular are in the same spectrum position which isn't accurate. In many markets (including mine) Cingular has nearly twice the spectrum of Verizon. This also leads me to think that Verizon will be a bidder in the auctions. Another thing that they don't mention is that the lesser carriers (T-Mobile and Sprint) often have equal or greater amounts of spectrum to Verizon in most markets.

    These auctions allow carriers to increase their capacity in their current markets and to move into markets where they aren't able to offer service because they aren't licenced for it - like how Verizon isn't licenced to operate in Oklahoma City. It won't increase coverage as the article suggests.

    1. Re:Not really accurate by slartibart · · Score: 1
      I'm not an expert, but I'm pretty sure that with spread-spectrum technology like CDMA (which has tight power control restrictions on the handset), more bandwidth actually can increase the coverage area.

      With more frequencies to broadcast on, cellphones on the fringe of the coverage area don't have to "yell" as loud for the tower to hear it, and phones that were previously "yelling" as loud as they could with no success, will then be heard.

    2. Re:Not really accurate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not really. There is an issue with CDMA based cells breathing, but it isn't that great. Things like spectrum frequency (1900 vs 800) make a much bigger difference than that. Anyway, it wouldn't really result in a great benefit since one could already set up a system where callers further away were bunched together and callers closer were bunched toghether since the smallest wireless licence is 10MHz and a CDMA channel is 1.25MHz.

      The big deal here is capacity and possible entry into new markets.

    3. Re:Not really accurate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How is Verizon moving into Oklahoma City not improving coverage?

      If Cingular has that much spectrum, they aren't using it efficiently.. around here Verizon is the only way to go, as Cingular constantly has Network Busy errors and dropped calls. Maybe that is because GSM can only fit 3 callers on a channel and CDMA can fit 7-8? I'm not an expert, just musing.

  11. Where'd all of this bandwidth come from? by Gyorg_Lavode · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Where exactly did all this bandwidth to just give away come from when the Military is having to override garage door openers to effectively use it's bandwidth?

    --
    I do security
    1. Re:Where'd all of this bandwidth come from? by RpiMatty · · Score: 1

      From the article YOU linked too.

      "The garage-door opener frequency at issue -- 390 megahertz -- has belonged to the military since around 1950. Openers have legally operated at that frequency since at least the early 1980s, Karasek said.
      U.S. law allows low-power electronic devices to operate on military frequencies if they don't cause interference. It was a good frequency for garage-door openers because transmissions can penetrate the doors."

      The article goes on to say the military is trying to make more efficent use of their current spectrum.
      So this problem is caused my manufacturers of the door openers, and not the military.

    2. Re:Where'd all of this bandwidth come from? by Ironsides · · Score: 2, Informative

      DTV is allowing the consolidation of all TV stations to about 2/3 the previous number of channels. Previously they needed all the chanels to keep stations from interfeering with each other in adjacent markets. The top 20 or so channels (49-69?) frequencies are no longer going to be in use. They are auctioning off all those frequencies that each channel (6mhz each) used.

      As for the military and the garage door openers, the Military has certain frequencies set aside for its use. By FCC rules other companies can use those frequencies so long as they don't interfere with the person/group who is the legal user of it (the DoD in this case). The garage door manufacturers are knowingly using those frequencies and as such whenever the Military broadcasts in those areas the openers are overwelmed by the power. Several other groups use frequencies like this. Such as car remotes, In home wireless CCTV systems, security systems and others. The Military is probably using standard power for those freqs, its just that the remotes are so much weaker they don't get through.

      --
      Fly me to the moon Let me sing among those stars Let me see what spring is like On jupiter and mars
    3. Re:Where'd all of this bandwidth come from? by kaiser423 · · Score: 1

      I think you have it the wrong way. Your question should be: Where exactly did all this bandwidth to just give away come from when garage door opener manufacturers are polluting spectrum that the military owns? The answer would be Section 15. Garage door openers can operate on pretty much any frequency as long as they are Section 15 devices. Many companies just happened to use a portion of the spectrum that the military owns.

  12. Coverage obligations! by grahamsz · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Lets hope they do something like the UK where 3G bidders are obliged to cover 80% of the population by 2007.

    That way citizens of the US get more out of the deal.. as a european living in the us i'm appalled at how frequently i loose reception.

    http://www.cellular-news.com/3G/uk.shtml

    1. Re:Coverage obligations! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...frequently i loose reception...

      As opposed to tightening reception? Strange place you must live...

    2. Re:Coverage obligations! by forand · · Score: 1

      While, I know Italy is not the same as the UK, their cell systems are owned by the same major players. What I have found is that you get great reception in the Cities but once you go outside the cities you are screwed. In the US you get some coverage even in the middle of nowhere if enough people are traveling through that area. Population coverage at 80% is probably already avaliable here in the US but you don't realize that when you lose signal you are not in a high population area. Just my 2 cents.

    3. Re:Coverage obligations! by Sukh · · Score: 1

      2G networks in the UK cover 99% of the population. This includes big sparse areas and motorways. The only real problems you get are when going underground or in tunnels. Other than that, coverage is pretty good on Vodafone, O2 and Orange. T-Mobile lacks a bit, but is still not bad.

      3G phones can automatically fallback to 2G when there is no 3G reception. As such, you can use your phone pretty much everywhere. You can only use video calling and high-bandwidth apps in the 3G area though.

    4. Re:Coverage obligations! by grahamsz · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure what the US standards are for population coverage. I live in a highly populated area and lose t-mobile reception just by walking to the windows on the other side of my office.

      Likewise i need to keep my head at a particular angle to keep reception in my appartment.

      Perhaps if you aggregate all networks then you get 80% coverage - but i doubt any one does.

  13. Sort of like grazing rights... by The+Ape+With+No+Name · · Score: 1

    out West? Well, those are rife with problems (environmental, esp watershed damage). I wonder what the ramifications of renting would be though. Probably, the gubmint isn't allowed to rent them through some sweetheart deal set up for the telcom companies. No, that never happens....

    --
    Comparing it to Windows will be a moot point, since El Dorado is going to have a 40% larger code base than XP.
  14. Onwards, Brave Americans! by Onimaru · · Score: 1

    Is the shout-out to manifest destiny intentional? "We need more wireless elbow room! These primitives don't realize you can own bandwidth! They'll give it up for pretty beads and mp3 ringtones invoking pop idols! We'd be fools not to auction it off!"

    --
    adam b.
    1. Re:Onwards, Brave Americans! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course... We (the public) gave (virtually for free) the spectrum to the cell companies... Then they charge us monthly for the use of it.

      Then they also charge us if we don't want to use it (early termination fee). Of course they give sooo many incentives for renewing contracts (new phone, etc), it is a rare moment to find anyone approaching the end of their 'contract'.

      How many other businesses can profit MORE when their customers leave?

  15. 3G isn't going to work... by Jeff+DeMaagd · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ...if they still charge too much for the content.

    I'm talking $3 for a 125x125 background picture, only allow people to keep it for three months and that kind of crap.

    I'm not paying $10 a month for slow internet service to same phone with 125 resolution either.

    1. Re:3G isn't going to work... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, they have to pay for the spectrum somehow.

    2. Re:3G isn't going to work... by Jeff+DeMaagd · · Score: 1

      That's debateable. I know the spectrum has to be paid for, but $10 a month for little better than modem speed internet? $3 for a picture or a ring tone?

      I'd like to see what Japan and Korea are doing right in regards to cell phone networking and see if that can apply to the US.

    3. Re:3G isn't going to work... by man_ls · · Score: 1

      I'd pay $10 a month for modem speed Internet, if it were unmetered and hooked to my computer.

      Unfortunately, it doesn't work like that. Verizon charges about $100 a month for 200ish kbps, metered.

    4. Re:3G isn't going to work... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      t-mobile charges 4.99/month for 56Kbps, unmetered that you can use (wirelessly via bluetooth) on your computer. They only allow ports http, https, imap, imaps, pop, pops and smtp. Just run your sshd on pops and away you go. They call it "t-zones" and hype is as ringtones and WAP, but underneath it is just GPRS.

      If you're grandfathered in on the old plan, it is only 2.99 a month.

  16. 3G by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    ... so-called 3G services to take off

    Isn't this what many people said about the last auction that occurred a couple of years back?

    Instead of selling it to private companies, why don't they create more public spectrum? IMHO more has come out of WiFi in an unlicensed spectrum than in most private telco networks. Give more space to WiMAX (802.16) and let people figure out what to do with it. They'll be a lot more creative than the incumbents.

    WiFi proved that the commons doesn't have to be a tragedy. Let's continue this experiment in public use. We don't have to necessarilly make all the available spectrum public; there's room for both private and public use / allocation. Commerical enterprise has been given its chance since the beginning of radio / the FCC. Time for different thinking.

    1. Re:3G by KillerBob · · Score: 1

      Thing is... the purpose of the expansion is for cellular. It's a pretty good idea to restrict which companies can use which frequencies, and that's why the licensing.

      Think about it... unlicensed frequencies on a cellular network means that *anybody* can set up a radio on that frequency. A cell phone is basically a two-way radio, and the only way the cellular network works is by having a set of ranges that the phone can switch between when you're making a phone call. Have you ever lost a call when moving between cells, or heard a recorded message that due to volume, your call could not be placed at that time? It's because the network is operating near capacity. If there was no regulation as to who could set up a transmitter on cellular frequencies, then the situation would get worse, not better.

      My question, though, is who's going to pay for it? I mean, $50billion is a lot of customers at $30/month....

      --
      If you believe everything you read, you'd better not read. - Japanese proverb
  17. Great! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    More brain dead drones walking around with their camera phones saying "Can you see me now?"

  18. Sirius radio on Apple ipod by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Who cares about terrestrial signals any more, when I can soon get Howard Stern on my ipod.

    http://engadget.com/entry/1234000547022729/

  19. That's not funny because it's not correct by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ham radio operators are more likely to be 30-50 year olds with stable income and a family. Sheesh.

    1. Re:That's not funny because it's not correct by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Well, yeah. They are generally 30-50 years old. They have a stable income, though there's not a lot of money in pizza delivery. And I'd say "living with your parents" qualifies as having a family.

    2. Re:That's not funny because it's not correct by Satan+Dumpling · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Counter example: My dad In his 50's, own business, nice big house, etc.
      See www.adeptrocketry.com
      Electronics nerd, father of two successful computer nerds.
      When I called him yesterday he had just put up a new ham antenna....

    3. Re:That's not funny because it's not correct by stupidfoo · · Score: 1

      Yet his son isn't bright enough to learn how to create fancy links!

    4. Re:That's not funny because it's not correct by Satan+Dumpling · · Score: 1

      I'm his daughter and I'm just too lazy/busy.

  20. Auctions - not a good idea by Toby+The+Economist · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Sounds like a great way to burden the industry with debt so future investment is minimal.

    What matters most here? revenue for the state or service for consumers?

    --
    Toby

    1. Re:Auctions - not a good idea by notbob · · Score: 0

      After bush spent it all.

      Revenue for the state please.

      We need more tax revenue and less spending... wheres the 50% tax on Iraqi oil to repay our invasion costs???

    2. Re:Auctions - not a good idea by Toby+The+Economist · · Score: 1

      If you put a 50% tax on Iraqi oil, no one would buy any, because every other oil supplier on the market would be cheaper.

      --
      Toby

    3. Re:Auctions - not a good idea by Fareq · · Score: 1

      That depends...

      I don't know that much about oil drilling costs, but putting a 50% tax on Iraqi oil would mean that Iraq would have to charge at most 75% of what the "open market" does.

      Since the open market is essentially a cartel, thus keeping prices extremely high compared with "production" costs, there would be room for Iraq to charge considerably less than the going rate and still probably make a profit.

      Remember that oil is currently in the $40 - $50 / barrel range, when not much more than a year ago it dipped into the $26-$27 range... I do not believe that the cost of drilling and shipping the oil increased that much... if Iraq sold its oil for $25/barrel, after taxes it'd be $37.50. That would still be a bargain price on the current market.

      Not that I'm recommending such a tax -- I don't think it is appropriate or fair. However, it would not completely obliterate the Iraqi oil market. It would take the cartel deciding to boost production to lower prices so that Iraq was forced to either sell oil at a loss or stop producting all together that would make it so that nobody bought Iraqi oil.

    4. Re:Auctions - not a good idea by Toby+The+Economist · · Score: 1

      I don't see how a 50% tax on Iraqi oil means it can be sold at 75% of the current oil price.

      If you tax something, the price rises, rather than falls, and I can see no other factors which would cause a price reduction.

      The market currently is not a cartel, since prices are currently set by scarcity. All producer countries are going flat out. The market price currently reflects true market value in the presence of a shortage.

      I think you've erred in comparing the current market and its prices to the market of a year ago. A year ago, OPEC set prices in the 22 to 28 dollar range. OPEC no longer has this ability.

      --
      Toby

    5. Re:Auctions - not a good idea by bruns · · Score: 1

      What makes you think that even if they didn't spend all the money on the spectrum, that they would spend it on future investment? Most likely, instead the CEO or board director's pockets will be lined with quite a bit of it.

      --
      Brielle
  21. Hams don't really use that portion of the spectrum by VE3ECM · · Score: 3, Informative
    Hams are pretty much fine where they are.

    The portion of the spectrum that they hang out on (the HF bands, ~140 mhz, ~440 mhz) don't have the bandwidth for this stuff...

    The FCC is auction chunks of higher frequency spectrum...
    Hams have little pieces of it here and there (ie 902 mhz, 927 mhz, some 1.2Ghz and 1.6Ghz IIRC)... but the chunks are so small that there's not really much to gain by yanking it.

    Most of this spectrum is in the 800-900 mhz 1.8-2.0 Ghz bands...

    There's a big push behind the scenes to move the public safety bands out of 800 mhz and into the 700's... that frees up a lot of 800 for cell carriers, and eliminates that nasty Nextel interference that a lot of trunked radio systems in metro areas experience.

  22. Will they offer more unlicensed bands? by drewzhrodague · · Score: 1

    Will they offer more unlicensed bands, or is this the other half of the deal?

    --
    Zhrodague.net - I do projects and stuff too.
  23. So why is that a problem? by phr1 · · Score: 1
    You build a big infrastructure around some frequencies and use it for some years, then when renewal time comes around, your infrastructure is obsolete enough that you can't make a competitive bid against someone using newer technology. Why the hell should you be allowed to keep consuming a public resource (spectrum) when there are more efficient uses that can be made for it?

    Obviously the renewal terms should be long enough to make the rentals able to generate a reasonable return on investment even if that infrastructure has to be dismantled at the end of the term. I don't think that's so terrible. And the prospect of having to take down the infrastructure simply would get built into the bid amounts.

    What I see instead is an agenda on the govt's part to turn public spectrum into the private fiefdom of some lobbying corporations. That must not be allowed.

    1. Re:So why is that a problem? by Ironsides · · Score: 1

      RF infrastructure does not go out of date easily. lifetimes of transmitters and towers are upwards of 20 years and the equipment itself gets replaced periodically but does not get obsolete. The companies that use it will make the most efficient use of it for their purposes. If they have extra bandwidth, they will lease it. Look up satelite transponders and how many companies sublease extra bandwidth. What is a deffinition of efficient in this case anyways?

      The other problem with loosing the lease is that the customers have to change out their equipment as well. Think about having to change out 10 million cellphones every few years.

      As for the agenda you see, its more a way of making money. No corporation is going to sit on unused spectrum. They are either going to use it, lease it or sell it to make money. We will probably see a new market specifically for the buying and selling of spectrum in a few years.

      Oh, and one other thing. In you post replace frequencies with land and tell me what you think of that.

      --
      Fly me to the moon Let me sing among those stars Let me see what spring is like On jupiter and mars
    2. Re:So why is that a problem? by Fareq · · Score: 1

      changing out cellphones every few years?

      Oh, come on... cellphones rarely last longer than the 1-2 year contracts people sign anyway...

      And besides, they're practically free anyway. I mean, I just got a new cellphone... I picked the "upgraded" model that cost a whole $59.99...

      It has a 1-year warranty, and I have to keep it at least 21 months. If I get a new one sooner, then I have to pay the $250 buy-a-cellphone-without-new-service fee. But guess what... in 21 months I can get a new one. And I probably will -- the things are made so cheaply (so that they can be sold for only $0 - $60 or so) that they rarely last longer than that anyway...

    3. Re:So why is that a problem? by phr1 · · Score: 1

      That's basically the idea. Base station equipment lasts longer than handsets, but I bet 90% of the base station stuff in service is less than 5 years old, and that will still be true in 5 years. So, expiring the leases after 5 years shouldn't affect the cost of sinking that equipment by more than 10%.

  24. Freedom of Speech by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The FCC needs to stop selling off what is not there.
    The first amendment gives us the right of free speech.
    Its ok to protect some radio spectrum, but to not give
    the rest of us the freedom to set up our own wireless
    networks and routers in the spectrum used my cellular
    is simply against the law.

  25. OT: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    JavaScript != Java
    How long did it take for you to realize this?

  26. What's it going to cost me? by slapout · · Score: 1

    How much is my cell phone bill going to go up to cover it this time?

    --
    Coder's Stone: The programming language quick ref for iPad
  27. There is a build-out requirement by rbrome · · Score: 2, Informative

    My problem with the spectrum auction model is it encourages companies to buy up spectrum only for the purpose of keeping it from others companies. If you own the spectrum you should be forced to put it to use within N years by X% of the public in that area, otherwise it reverts back to the FCC.

    The FCC has exactly those kinds of network build-out requirements in nearly every spectrum license it issues.

  28. Ultimate goals by St.+Arbirix · · Score: 1

    Short term, it should improve the quality of Cell-phone, long term, it should open up opportunities for so-called 3G services to take off. ... and ultimately it'll prevent people from setting up long distance, flexible, high bandwidth national and international wireless networks devoid of government oversight.

    Hear that soft rumble? It's the bureaucracy expanding to fill in the gaps.

    --
    Direct away from face when opening.
    1. Re:Ultimate goals by St.+Arbirix · · Score: 1

      I should have added that this auction will set a price on a realistically free medium. It'll be nothing but an economic bubble protected from collapse by our tax dollars because collapsed economies drive the dollar down.

      Software also falls under this economic category more often than not, except that Microsoft didn't buy in an FCC auction the chance to fill 90% of the computers in the country with their operating system. Thanks to that other operating system are able to edge into the market. See what happens when the FCC sees you try to edge into the airwaves after they've just been paid billions to keep you out.

      --
      Direct away from face when opening.
  29. National Parks too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hey, let's sell off the National Parks too. Think of all the federal debt we can eliminate!

  30. It is a lease indeed by ZakMcCracken · · Score: 1

    The FCC does in fact sell licences *only for a certain period of time*, typically 10 years. Therefore, a provider who would continue to provide services would probably have to repay for the rights to continue using the spectrum later on. So in a way, this is a lease.

    The spectrum licences does not grant a monopoly to the highest bidder, far from it. In every spectrum band and every region, there are several licensees (at the very least 2, more commonly 5) and the FCC enforces restrictions on the total spectrum owned by a single entity.

    This model is certainly better than what the FCC used to do before (choose licensees based on an ad-hoc examination process, or worse yet attribute them via lottery!!). It does try to enforce "opportunity costs". There are also "substantial service obligations" that are enforced to guard against people trying to organise the scarcity of spectrum by hogging it without using it.

    One problem is, though, what is the value of spectrum now when the FCC might open up more spectrum in the future? In 1996, you didn't know that the FCC was going to auction twice the amount of spectrum again or that it was going to create more unlicensed spectrum bands...

  31. Bye Bye TV by VonGuard · · Score: 1

    Isn't this the spectrum that television broadcasts run over?

    As we all know by now, the FCC will likely give most of this to the phone companies, some to the media moguls, and then slop off about .001 Mhz worth fo spectrum to the public domain.

    Thanks Mr. Powell...

    --
    Don't Crease the Weasel!
  32. More unlicensed bands for you by ZakMcCracken · · Score: 1

    The FCC is indeed opening more unlicensed bands. It is getting to the point that operators can have pretty decent "elbow room" there. For a good idea of what's going to happen with WiMAX in such bands, check out this operator in Chicago, Boston, NYC, LA and some other places...

  33. Move to a Leasing Model by PingXao · · Score: 2, Informative

    The FCC raises $50 to $70 billion. Once. BFD. They should move to a licensing scheme whereby these spectrums are allocated on a renewable basis. With the U.S. national debt at near back-breaking levels wouldn't it make more sense for the public - who ostensibly owns the "airwaves" - to reap benefits on a recurring basis from giant communications compamnies? As it stands now once the blocks of spectrum are auctioned off they're gone forever. The public no longer "owns" them. The FCC needs to stop giving this precious commodity away.

  34. Taxes and pricing by cdrguru · · Score: 1
    You make the common mistake in assuming the price for commodities are sold at has some basis in reality. Oil is traded on commodity exchanges all over the world.

    Why did oil drop by $10 a barrel in the last few weeks? Did the scarcity suddenly end? Why do gas prices in the US seem to reflect the oil futures market when the real price for the oil refined into gasoline lags the futures market by at least three or four months? The answer is that none of these prices has any real foundation in costs or expenses. The prices are determined by a futures market where traders are playing off each other. Someone buys a contract for March delivery and can then sell it for $0.001 a barrel more than they bought it for and they make a few thousand dollars. Magnify this by hundreds of traders on the 10 or 20 commodity exchanges and you get the idea of how this is really controlled.

    Sure, OPEC can try to put a floor under this, and they have in the past. But they have no control over the upper limit - that is set by the traders. And, like all traders (or gamblers), they are ruled by their emotions rather than logic. This means that while Iraq is sitting unable to deliver any oil this must mean that people will pay more for it in a few months - so the March contract must be worth more. Right.

  35. hidden tax: the consumers end up paying the FCC by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Expensive auction rounds are eventually paid for by the consumer as the telcos have to make their money back from the infrastructure investments and frequency auction...Obvious, I know, but I think the frequencies should be alloted by beauty contest (i.e. potential, cohesiveness of plan, financial accountability etc.)
    The FCC should aim to charge only for their costs with adminstering the frequencies and the opertaors and not see this as an opportunity for a quick buck.... In Europe the telcos are getting ready to take the 3G consumers to the cleaners to make back the money from goverment auctions as well as enormous infrastructure investments

  36. Here it is by killerface · · Score: 1

    I foound the elbow room a couple months ago it's a bar 2 blocks away http://www.ypsirocks.com/

  37. VE3* by multipartmixed · · Score: 1

    So, do all ham call signs start with VE3, or do you live around here somewhere?

    --

    Do daemons dream of electric sleep()?
    1. Re:VE3* by VE3ECM · · Score: 1

      Amateur radio prefixes are assigned geographically. VE3 is Canadian; Ontario specifically. My call sign while in the US is VE3ECM/W2... the W2 suffix is the area I am currently located. arrl.org has more info on callsigns.

  38. How useful is the auctioned spectrum? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Much of what they're offering is "surplus" UHF-TV and VHF-TV channels, to become available when the digital TV conversion goes through (don't hold your breathe waiting for it). These frequencies aren't compatible with existing phones, either domestic or foreign. These frequencies aren't contiguous with existing cellular bands, so new hardware is needed in the handsets. More parts, more power consumption, poor compatibility, less battery life: is that what customers are begging for? I don't see how a rational company would pay much, if anything, for spectrum that is incompatible with the well-established standards. In this post dot-com era, the "irrational exuberance" of previous spectrum land-grabs is unlikely to recur.