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Virtual Island Sells For $26,500

Aziphirael writes "The MMORPG Project Entropia has just announced that its first treasure island sale via Auction has gone for a grand total of US$26,500. Project Entropia's unique selling point is the ability to convert real money into ingame cash and vice versa. The owner is Zachurm "Deathifier" Emegen who intends to develop the island into a place for the community." From the article: "A large island off a newly discovered continent surrounded by deep creature infested waters. The island boasts beautiful beaches ripe for developing beachfront property, an old volcano with rumors of fierce creatures within, the outback is overrun with mutants, and an area with a high concentration of robotic miners guarded by heavily armed assault robots indicates interesting mining opportunities."

69 of 451 comments (clear)

  1. Said under breath while feigning a cough... by daveschroeder · · Score: 5, Funny

    SUCKER!

    1. Re:Said under breath while feigning a cough... by JaffaKREE · · Score: 5, Funny

      What are you talking about - look at those screen shots, the beautiful palm trees, tropical weather... wait, what ? it's only make-believe ?

      SUCKER!

    2. Re:Said under breath while feigning a cough... by zxnos · · Score: 3, Funny

      well, real estate does have an 8-12% growth rate, so who is going to be laughing in 15 years when he pays off his loan and sells the island to retire in another 15? yeah thats right...

      --
      always mosh clockwise
  2. $26,500? by Bob+McCown · · Score: 5, Funny

    From the "I have more money than sense department"

    1. Re:$26,500? by JaffaKREE · · Score: 3, Funny

      Maybe it should have been "more sense than bandwidth"... bye bye, site...

  3. Talk about "Intellectual" Property by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Jeez, I hope they down shutdown the game's server. Then his island may as well be called Atlantis.

    1. Re:Talk about "Intellectual" Property by Lord+Kano · · Score: 3, Insightful

      In TFA it's explained that he will be given a total of 60 lots than can be sold to others on his island.

      If he can charge $450 each for them, he'll make his money back and get the benefit of taxing mining and hunting on the island.

      This will all depend on the game being popular enough to remain active long enough for him to make his money back.

      LK

      --
      "Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
  4. and now the seller by hsmith · · Score: 3, Funny

    can move out of their parents basement!

    but who in their right mind would spend $26K on a virtual world

    1. Re:and now the seller by which+way+is+up · · Score: 2, Insightful
      but who in their right mind would spend $26K on a virtual world

      Hmmmm...

      How about a person who can't cut it in the real one?

    2. Re:and now the seller by TCaptain · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I don't know...if he's got 26K to waste like that, I'd say he's doing pretty good in the real one.

      --
      "I'm not a procrastinator, I'm temporally challenged"
    3. Re:and now the seller by Eric+Giguere · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If the buyer's smart, he'll set up a virtual tour of his island so that slashdotters can visit it in droves to comment on his stupidity. All he has to do is sell some advertising space on the island beforehand...

      Eric
    4. Re:and now the seller by which+way+is+up · · Score: 3, Funny

      Please... It's not hard to save money living in your parents basement...

    5. Re:and now the seller by jdray · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I'll start to take this seriously when we see a headline that says, "Virtual Island Owner Cashes Out Virtual Holdings for a Real Dollar Profit."

      --
      The Spoon
      Updated 6/28/2011
    6. Re:and now the seller by jubei · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Google provides a real service to searchers and web providers alike. Sure there are risks. Competitors could flood the market or try to lock out Google by convincing all hosting providers to block google's spiders. Either of these would require real work from competitors.

      However, the risks with buying a virtual island seem immense. The game company has a huge incentive to produce many such islands to sell. Doing this may negatively impact this guy's investment. It is hard to justify that kind of investment if someone can multiply the supply infinitely with a few keypresses, and has motivation to do so.

  5. Bridge For Sale by Cade144 · · Score: 4, Funny

    I've got a virtual bridge that connects Manhattan and Brooklyn.

    It's sure to generate lots of revenue. It's for sale by auction, I expect to get at least $100,000FUD (equal to $100,000USD).

    Seriously though, good luck to all the virtual real-estate agents out there.

  6. Retarded. But... by nordicfrost · · Score: 3, Interesting

    ...to each, his own wishes. On the bright side, this is only a sale of disposition rights to creative property. Much like what we do when we buy music.

    I have to admit, though. The price was VERY steep.

  7. BT Barnum was right... by i.r.id10t · · Score: 2, Funny

    ... there is a sucker born every minute.

    --
    Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos
  8. You venture near the old volcano... by ClosedGL · · Score: 5, Funny

    ...you are eaten by a grue. Game Over.

    1. Re:You venture near the old volcano... by spoonyfork · · Score: 4, Funny

      ...you are eaten by a grue. Game Over.

      Please insert another $26,500 to continue.

      --
      Speak truth to power.
  9. Girl by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    How much for just one island girl?

  10. From TFA by Fnkmaster · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Since nobody bothers to RTFA anymore:

    The first ever virtual Treasure Island is for sale in Project Entropia, a Massive Multi-Player Online Universe with a real cash economy. This extremely desirable piece of real estate promises to make the highest bidder very rich and very influential within the rapidly growing Project Entropia universe.

    So the reason it might be worth paying 26k for this virtual island is that there is a real cash economy in the "game" - in other words, presumably the in-game resources he can extract from his island can presumably be sold or utilized to make items in the game that can be exchanged for real US dollars. So it's a virtual investment, but one that has potential real-world payoff.

    1. Re:From TFA by odano · · Score: 5, Funny

      Well when you say it like that, I think this purchase is starting to make sense...

      Wait a second...

      Nope, still makes no sense.

    2. Re:From TFA by FortKnox · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I think the problem is that there is far too much risk involved. I think he'd be better off simply buying $26.5k stock from VA Software..... well... maybe not THAT risky... but still... ;-)

      Seriously, though... what happens if he, say, gets caught cheating and is banned from the game? Does he lose his investment? Who takes control?

      There aren't laws for virtual real estate...

      --
      Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
    3. Re:From TFA by Reapy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No one here knows about the game and how alive the economy for this game is. I would like to know.

      Obviously the guy bought this island as an investment, with the potential to make more money then he payed. I bet the guy knew the risks invovled, that the game may go down, that the company pretty much decides to make a change that fucks him over, that the owning company is pretty much thier god. He is probably betting on the fact that their game will work and make more money, the more people like him can make money, and are hoping that they'll act in his best intrest.

      Who knows what the potential return on this could be? Maybe the guy took a calculated risk with his "investment" and decided hes going to do whats "stupid" and potententially make buckets of cash. Or he could go down in flames. Maybe the guy's got enough money that it doesnt matter if it all falls through, but can afford to exiriment.

      I mean, we don't know anything about the guy, or the game, to know if hes made an idiotic decision.
      I just think before anybody calls him an idiot they should at liest know the details of the risks hes taking, and maybe they actually will turn out to potentially have a great return at a high risk, and he can afford that type of gambling.

      I mean, couldn't I buy 26000 in a stock like lucent and exect that it would be worth something in the future, right, it couldn't all just dissapear on me... What did I just buy? A bunch of paper. What's the real value of that paper? It's whatever value people put into it. How is buying a stock any different then buying a virtual island? The value of the island is there as long as people are willing to pay for service from it.

      Well with stocks you have more protection from fraud then you would with this investment, but still, the concept is still there, the viritual property has value as long as people are willing to pay for it.

      But in this whole sceme, i'd like to be the game devs who can create 26,000 dollar property at whim. Well, I guess they couldn't as the more they made it would reduce the value, but still, we shouldn't write it off without more details.

    4. Re:From TFA by lxs · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If this catches on it will become a bigger money-laundering scheme than the Las Vegas casinos:

      1. invest dubiously gotten gains into virtual island
      2. trade virtual island in-game with criminal B
      3. sell new island on open market.
      4. spend all that crazy loot legally(sorry, PROFIT!!!)

      So, who will become the top Entropia players? Al Quaeda, investment bankers or drug cartels?

      My guess is: All of the above.

    5. Re:From TFA by TGK · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It's worth pointing out here that the phrase "Real Money" hasn't meant dick squat since the US went off the Gold Standard in the 1970s (1972? 71?).

      Today money is backed by the full faith and credit of the US (or whatever country you happen to live in) Government. Without anything of real value behind the money it has value simply because people belive it to have value.

      At least in the MMORPG world the game developers (who define rules for the world they oversee) have more to say about the value of a currency. If you confine your sphere of thinking to the game world, it's like having a currency backed by God (in the God walking around on the earth turning people into pillars of salt sence).

      What's interesting is that this particular RPG has chosen to base its currency off of the US dollar (in that there is a 1:1 exchange between US dollars and this game's currency). It would be somewhat more interesting to allow the currency to float or to base it on the price of gold. This way fluctuations in the world econonmy would affect it more predictably. At present, the US economy is tanking and, if you're playing this game from Europe, life is good for you buying in, but sucks for you buying out.

      Base it on the price of Gold and you only need to worry about the fluctuation of your own economy. Sure, that makes it more complicated for us Yanks, but the rest of you are doing twice as much math and you need to do.

      --
      Killfile(TGK)
      No trees were killed in the creation of this post. However, many electrons were inconvenienced.
    6. Re:From TFA by Reignking · · Score: 2, Funny

      I'm going to buy a virtual hurricane and wipe his island out...

      --
      One man's Funny is another man's Offtopic.
    7. Re:From TFA by elhaf · · Score: 2, Insightful
      But in this whole sceme, i'd like to be the game devs who can create 26,000 dollar property at whim. Well, I guess they couldn't as the more they made it would reduce the value, but still, we shouldn't write it off without more details.
      Indeed, the actual, real-world bits-on-a-BANK's-computer cost (note the fine distinction) of creating the island may well have exceeded 26000USD. Yes, other copies are free to the developers, but what good are they, really? In any case, whatever their business model is, they have to work in this guys interest or they'll only ever sell the one.
      --
      Six score characters.
      Brevity being wit's soul
      I have enough space.
    8. Re:From TFA by servognome · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It's worth pointing out here that the phrase "Real Money" hasn't meant dick squat since the US went off the Gold Standard in the 1970s
      The gold standard was just a way to convince people to actually trust and use money. How would could I trust that I can use the paper you give me to purchase goods/services of my own? Oh well the goverment "insured" this dollar with something that is more universally recognized, gold. Gold didn't have any inherent value, the reason it was used as a standard was it was rare and you couldn't counterfeit it. But over time people got used to the idea of exchanging paper money and also gained trust that designs/paper/ink prevented counterfeiting. Paper money had the same attributes as gold so no "insurance policy" was needed to convince people to use it.
      Base it on the price of Gold and you only need to worry about the fluctuation of your own economy
      Of course you do. When you have a gold backed $1 the amount of gold you can get back for that $1 not only can vary with the amount of availble cash, it varies with the commodities market as well. Goverment prints more money your $1 redeems less gold you have inflation, a huge supply of gold is discovered your dollar now redeems more gold you have deflation.

      --
      D6 63 0D 70 89 81 BB 8E 7B 7C 5F 5D 54 EA AB 73
    9. Re:From TFA by Wes+Janson · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Ok, you've drawn me out. I'm one of the veterans of PE, so I feel obliged to respond briefly here.

      Yes, you're right, this was partly an investment. Honestly, even though I've been playing PE for close to three years now, I do not know Deathifier very well at all. Most of the vets know each other, but he tends to keep quiet, though he's been around for a while. However, the second highest bidder, Neverdie, is fairly wealthy and responsible for the bidding going as high has it did. I can say with confidence that HIS reasons were largely the desire to be prominent in the community, and make money.

      Will the game stick around? Well, I've been asking that for close to three years now, and somehow it keeps on ticking. I don't foresee it going out anytime soon. Dunno who, how, or why it continues, but it does. Things keep getting added...albeit slowly. There's plenty still in the works, and a fairly decent sized community. What are the odds of the investment paying off? Hard to say...it depends on a number of factors. Will Deathifier likely get the lots? Yeah, most likely. MA is fairly trustworthy in those matters, although based on how houses have been sold in the past, it'll probably take the better part of a year for all of them to be sold. As for the other things, their value has yet to be seen. It's entirely possible that he might wind up recouping his costs 150%. But, who knows? ;)

    10. Re:From TFA by Wes+Janson · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm a veteran of PE, and I can answer this: it's been tried.


      About two years ago or so, a couple of guys (LIQUIDENFORCER and someone else, as I recall) had a smart plan. They'd steal a credit card, max it out into PE, and then screw around with all of the money (taking some of it out later, I believe).

      Only catch was, they didn't realize MA tracks all transactions, and keeps logs of damned near everything. Everyone who traded almost anything with those two, had their accounts suspended for a week or two, and all the transactions were, for the most part, reversed. The moneys were returned to MindArk, and MindArk returned the money to the credit card company. I think I was nearly the only person who profited from it, because one of the two happened to give me a dollar's worth of ammo on a whim, as he was walking by.

      So in conclusion: No, there's no way in hell that would work. Because everything is kept track of, they'd know immediately where it went to, and stop it. Sorry.

  11. perfect by kevinx · · Score: 3, Funny

    sounds like a wonderful place for me to open up my lemonade stand.

  12. interesting. scary. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I assume the idea is that the new owner can reap real usd profit from subdivision, mining and taxation. what does the irs think about this? foreign income? does the world have an offshore bank? good lord. the devlopers seem to have invented a money printing press...

  13. WTF (inital reaction) by BWJones · · Score: 4, Interesting

    WTF? My initial reaction: "All I have got to say is that somebody is spending waaaaaay too much time playing games if they are willing to pony up that kind of cash for a virtual island". Then I realized (as I am browsing Slashdot wasting my time) that perhaps his person has plans to be a virtual developer which, while still the type of person associated with developing (build! build! build!) is developing and making money in a virtual world without the real world effects on the environment or populace that "real" developers have. Ah, I say go for it. We all gotta make money somehow, but I feel better telling my grandma I am a scientist as opposed to a make believe developer for a game. He will likely make more money than me anyway.

    --
    Visit Jonesblog and say hello.
  14. Possibly not a sucker... by avalys · · Score: 3, Interesting

    For all you guys making fun of this guy, it's possible he expects to make money off it. If he manages to sell resources and land from the island, he could then exchange his profits for US dollars.

    According to the article, he will be allowed to sell plots of land on the island worth around $30,000.

    He may not be as much of a dolt as you think.

    --
    This space intentionally left blank.
    1. Re:Possibly not a sucker... by mfender9 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Right, but in order for him to realize a profit, there would have to be at least one person in the world dumb enough to pay thirty grand for a virtual plot of land. Oh, wait...

    2. Re:Possibly not a sucker... by Jason+Hood · · Score: 2, Interesting


      For all you guys making fun of this guy, it's possible he expects to make money off it. If he manages to sell resources and land from the island, he could then exchange his profits for US dollars.

      Ok, BS. Something is only worth what someone else will pay for it. You may think that painting by your grandma is worth everything in the world but if it burns in a fire, you will get market value or a presettled compensation from the Insurance company.


      According to the article, he will be allowed to sell plots of land on the island worth around $30,000.

      Again, someone will have to buy it first.


      He may not be as much of a dolt as you think.

      He is a dolt and must count on other dolts to purchase make believe land from him. If he is successful and does sell his land, it simply means he is not as much as a dolt as the people that bought from him. That of course could mean he becomes less of a dolt or the people that bought are simply bigger dolts in the first place.

      I think I became dumber after reading the article.

      --
      Are you intolerant of intolerant people?
    3. Re:Possibly not a sucker... by foniksonik · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You have the same attitude the Indians on Manhattan Island had when they 'sold' their land (according to legend, for a handful of glass beads).

      They felt that noone could 'own' land and therefore it had no value... the white guys who 'bought' it from them were suckers...

      Value does come from Supply and Demand situations, so all the guy has to do is create demand.. austensibly aided by the Company which has a vested interest in showing that their virtual land does indeed have value and that you as a player should want to own it.

      Look at how a T-Shirt that would normally sell for $5 can have $0.50 worth of ink applied to it at a cost of $2 labor and can then be sold for $30 IF the ink is in the form of "Donna Karen" or "Gucci".

      It makes no sense from an intrinsic value perspective but from a "Associate myself with a philosophy or popular social group" perspective it makes some sense, however irrational... people who buy them feel like they improve their own value by being associated with someone or soemthing with perceived value itself.

      --
      A fool throws a stone into a well and a thousand sages can not remove it.
  15. For the nay-sayers... by Akki · · Score: 3, Interesting
    According to the first article, the island represents "massive revenue potential". If there was someone insane enough to buy a few bytes for $26.5K, there quite likely are at least a few people who are insane enough to buy property lots from him.

    He could end up making us look like the fools.

    1. Re:For the nay-sayers... by narcolepticjim · · Score: 2, Funny

      I think it's more accurate to say he'll possibly make several customers look as foolish as he looks.

  16. Not to nit-pick, but... by TrollBridge · · Score: 4, Informative

    ...you mean PT Barnum, and he never said that.

    --
    There's a Mercedes gap too. I want one and can't afford one, but it's not government's job to do anything about it.
    1. Re:Not to nit-pick, but... by Tibor+the+Hun · · Score: 3, Funny

      well, of course PT Barnum never said that, mr pointdexter.

      His lesser known brother Brad did, hence... BT Barnum.

      --
      If you don't know what AltaVista is (was), get off my lawn.
  17. Question... by TooMuchEspressoGuy · · Score: 4, Interesting
    What, exactly, is the point of playing a computer "game" where you evidently have to spend thousands of dollars in real money to get ahead of everyone else? Especially when you have games like World of Warcraft which are actually fun to play and don't require you to give an arm and a leg to succeed?

    It seems to me that this "Project: Entropia" isn't really a game, but instead nothing more than a place for rich pseudo-gamers to show off. In a game, you get ahead through intelligence and talent, both physical and mental, not by how much of your pocketbook you have to spare.

    --
    Many Bothans died to bring you this sig.
  18. Pandora's Box by hunterx11 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Doesn't this raise a whole host of legal issues? What if the server crashes, can they be sued for neglect since they destroyed someone's property? IIRC other MMORPGs went out of their way to point out that their ingame items have no value and that buying them IRL is not allowed. Not that it isn't common anyway, but do game companies really want to get into property disputes?

    --
    English is easier said than done.
    1. Re:Pandora's Box by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      This is NOT a big deal.

      I've been in two other virtual worlds where the same thing is commonplace and actually encouraged.

      The world of Second Life (www.secondlife.com) lets you buy and sell land and goods for in-world Linden Dollars that you can turn around and sell at GamingOpenMarket (gamingopenmarket.com). The current L$-US$ conversion rate is about US$4 to L$1000.

      SecondLife even sells private islands to people, for upwards of US$1000 and US$200/month. Dozens of them. And they are profitable to nearly all the owners.

      I know several people in world who make a second earned income doing just this. Upwards of US$35-50k a year.

      Check out IGE.com, which buys and sells and trades currency of SecondLife, There, Everquest II, Lineage II, City Of Heroes, World Of Warcraft, etc.

      What was it? The original Everquest had like the 30th largest world economy?

      Its the virtual economy. Virtual business for those who are pioneers of the niche market that is growing and growing.

  19. Real virtual cash? by AkaXakA · · Score: 2, Interesting

    We've seen this before, and it usually ends up with quite a lot of people losing not only virtual but real money as well. Heck even with payment systems we've seen that (paypal).

    Also, due to the addictive nature of MMORPG's (think everquest), I feel there should be some limmit as to how much a game can affect you in real life, especially involving finances. In the real world you've got all sorts of financial protection (from, for example, pyramid schemes), but in virtual games you've got pretty much no protection whatsoever.

  20. Video-Game Economics by pragma_x · · Score: 4, Funny

    Let me see if I have this right:

    (Virtual) Remote Island Location + Monster Infestation + Mutants + Active Volcano + Heavily Fortified Automated Mine = Prime Real-Estate at $26K USD

    Only in a game.

    I'd hate to see what the burned-out inner-cities of Entropia look like.

  21. In Stark Contrast.... by BRock97 · · Score: 2, Funny

    "The island boasts beautiful beaches ripe for developing beachfront property...<snip>"

    Mr. "Deathifier" Emegen went on to describe his computer desk from which he does his online business. It is a large desk with newly discovered space underneath a pile of computer gaming magazines. The upper desk boasts a monitor rest with beautiful stacks of Mountain Dew cans ripe for recycling, an old arm lamp with rumors it once worked, and behind the desk described as an "outback" that is in desperate need of cable tying which is overrun with mutant horse flies, The house he inhabits has an area described as the "kitchen" in desperate need of the girlfriend who left it two years ago that indicates excellent penicillin mining opportunities.

    --

    Bryan R.
    The price of freedom is eternal vigilance, or $12.50 as seen on eBay.....
  22. I think Dr. Gonzo said it.... by jonnystiph · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "It never got weird enough for me...". Well, this is it, it's gotten wierd enough for me. I am cashing in my chips and going home.

    $26,000 for a virtual island? WTF? How much for the virtual bridge?

    Perhaps the better quote would be "there is a sucker born every minute"

    --

    If we don't make light of everything, we are just stumbling in the dark - Blank

  23. Just the beginning by CrazyJim1 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    In real life, if you create a playground for kids, and someone gets hurt, you get sued and lose everything you own. See the war in skatepark culture.

    The only recourse for people to meet is online games. Things in this new reality is really worth cash. The problem is, people haven't really made stuff *rare* and *desirable* yet in a game with a 20+ year long run. You'll see stuff going for 25 grand *all the time* once game designers get some skills. Its amazing with programmer and artist skills that game designers are still hacks. It really sickens me since I'm good at game design and can't get a job.

  24. In other news... by JustNiz · · Score: 3, Funny

    The comapny decided not to run the game any more.

  25. Re:-1 Reality Check by CrazyJim1 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Some people use this easily gained money to donate to the poor. Its a fun game. Go beat up a few dragons, sell magic swords, then feed some starving kids and build their infrastructure.

  26. natural disaster? by nizo · · Score: 4, Funny

    Virtual island, meet hurricane Slashdot.

  27. Re:Wha Wha Wha Whaat? by UWC · · Score: 2, Funny

    I bet it was Bill Gates.

    Yes, Bill "Zachurm 'Deathifier' Emegen" Gates.

    I need to start using a full name as my nickname.

    While this whole real cash game economy seems like a really interesting experiment, I'm not sure how eager I'd be to invest that much money into something so ephemeral (I welcome all luddite allegations hurled my way... just because). I hope there's a user-friendly EULA with this game.

  28. Here's what you got for your $26,500: by Weaselmancer · · Score: 2, Funny
    -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 1.5K Feb 12 2004 stupid_island.dat
    --
    Weaselmancer
    rediculous.
  29. Re:-1 Reality Check by Lord_Dweomer · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Oh for the love of god. Enough with the starving people argument! People are allowed to think about and spend money on themselves. If thats too selfish for you, fine, you are certainly entitled to donate your money to whatever starving children you want.

    But for the love of god, stop trying to tell other people how to spend THEIR money. They don't tell you how to spend yours.

    --
    Buy Steampunk Clothing Online!
  30. Re:-1 Reality Check by MalaclypseTheYounger · · Score: 2, Funny

    In the words of some comic I saw the other day:

    Starving people in Africa, yeah, yeah...

    We have deserts in the US too. WE JUST DON'T LIVE THERE!!!! MOVE OUT OF THE DESERT!!!

    --
    Check out the best P2P sharing website: MEDIACHEST.COM
  31. Re:-1 Reality Check by RealAlaskan · · Score: 3, Funny
    Um hi. You're posting on slashdot instead of donating your kidneys to starving orphans.

    AC, are you advocating cannabalism? I'm shocked. Shocked! I say.

  32. The Amway gambit... by Chris+Burke · · Score: 2

    So the only way he comes out not a sucker for springing $26K for a virtual island is if he finds other, bigger suckers to spring for pieces of his virtual island totalling more than $26K.

    It's just like Amway, without the up-passing of future proceeds so it isn't a pyramid scheme but the mentality is similar. If you can find enough suckers yourself, you end up not a sucker and can make some money off of Amway. Most people just end up as suckers, though.

    --

    The enemies of Democracy are
    1. Re:The Amway gambit... by Control+Group · · Score: 2, Insightful
      That's the worst argument I've ever heard. That argument implies investing in anything is stupid, because it requires other, bigger idiots to buy it from you for it to be worthwhile.

      You should probably explain that to Wall Street, I'm sure they'll all stop buying notional ownership of corporations. I mean, they're of no value unless they can find bigger idiots to buy them.

      You could make an argument about the fact that what he bought is inherently a non-scarce resource, but saying it's stupid just because it counts on someone else buying it from you is...well, stupid. That's where the value of anything comes from.

      As far as non-scarce resources are concerned, there's a remarkably large body of law centered around making the sale of non-scarce resources possible. It covers things like "copyright" and "patent" and "trademark." There's nothing odd about investing in and selling off bits of non-scarce resources, it happens all the time.

      Hell, money is a non-scarce resource, protected only by the hope that the issuing government will be smart enough to not just print assloads more of it. There isn't even a contract backing that up, whereas in the case of this game, there are contracts covering the purchase and sale of property.

      Ultimately, it's worth whatever people are willing to pay for it. Just because you won't pay for it doesn't mean no one else will. Also just because you won't pay for it doesn't mean anyone who will is a sucker.

      --

      Reality has a conservative bias: it conserves mass, energy, momentum...
    2. Re:The Amway gambit... by Control+Group · · Score: 2, Insightful
      No, the reason it's stupid is because land on a virtual island has no demand. With no demand, it doesn't matter how much it costs - people won't pay for it.

      But...the fact that someone just paid 26 large for the island pretty much demonstrates a demand, doesn't it? It was an auction, so I doubt he's the only one who was willing to pay for it (otherwise he could have gotten for it less than $26k, presumably).

      I guess I don't see why you think there isn't any demand for it. There are plenty of real-money auctions on ebay for EQ items/characters/property, and ditto Ultima Online, Diablo II, etc. Investing in an island for an unproved game may be more speculative, but there's nothing new about betting on something to become more popular (every IPO is all about exactly that, after all).

      That fact that the island isn't a physical reality isn't all that relevant. Plenty of things that do have physical reality are pretty much worthless (ever know anyone who "bought" a star?), plenty of things which don't are worth quite a bit (like the Coca-Cola trademark, which I've heard is valued on their books at $75E6 (nothing like unsubstantiated "facts"...sorry)).

      The problem is that you seem to be separating "cost" from "demand," and that's not accurate. Demand defines cost, and there was clearly $26k worth of demand for this island.

      --

      Reality has a conservative bias: it conserves mass, energy, momentum...
    3. Re:The Amway gambit... by Chris+Burke · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That's the worst argument I've ever heard. That argument implies investing in anything is stupid, because it requires other, bigger idiots to buy it from you for it to be worthwhile.

      No, because "anything" isn't a non-existant item of no value and dubious future. Extrapolating a comment about one thing to everything else regardless of the similarity to what is being discussed is the worst argument I've ever heard. Too bad ad absurdum is so many's only argument.

      You should probably explain that to Wall Street, I'm sure they'll all stop buying notional ownership of corporations. I mean, they're of no value unless they can find bigger idiots to buy them.

      Ha ha ha! See, this is exactly what I mean. Stocks, when they don't pay dividends, still represent ownership and voting power in a real, valuable corporation. The value of the stock is practically related to the success or potential success of the real corporation it represents ownership in. Try issuing "stock certificates" without a real corporation behind them and see how many on Wall Street buy them!

      I think Wall Street could discern the subtle differences between ownership of a business and ownership of a virtual "island". Why can't you?

      You could make an argument about the fact that what he bought is inherently a non-scarce resource, but saying it's stupid just because it counts on someone else buying it from you is...well, stupid. That's where the value of anything comes from.

      You've missed the point. It's not stupid "just because it counts on someone else buying it". It was stupid the moment he paid $26K for a virtual island. I was rebutting the argument that possibly being able to resell it makes it not stupid. And like Amway, once you do the stupid thing your only choice is to try to find other people at least as stupid to climb out of the hole you just dug yourself. Some people succeed -- are they geniuses, or just smarter than the ones they passed the hot potato to?

      As far as non-scarce resources are concerned, there's a remarkably large body of law centered around making the sale of non-scarce resources possible. It covers things like "copyright" and "patent" and "trademark."

      The term is "artificial scarcity", and once again you miss the key difference: it only works if you are the one controlling the scarcity, because it is indeed artificial.

      Here's a real world example: Certain older Magic: The Gathering cards were worth decent money in aftermarket trading due to their power and rarity. "Rarity" of course being nothing more than Wizard of the Coast's decision of how many of the cards to print -- i.e. artificial scarcity. A few years later they decide to release an expansion which includes reprints of many of these powerful cards and just like that -- poof! -- the value of the original cards plummets. For collectors who want the original version they still have some value, but for those who don't there's no reason to pay a lot because the card simply isn't rare anymore. The ones who paid out the nose for the rare cards may have been upset, but that's their problem since they aren't the ones controlling the scarcity.

      Now, what do you think is going to happen when Project Entropia realizes that they can make a lot more money selling lots of islands for $100 than they can selling a few for $26K?

      Ultimately, it's worth whatever people are willing to pay for it. Just because you won't pay for it doesn't mean no one else will. Also just because you won't pay for it doesn't mean anyone who will is a sucker.

      Yeah, how's that Amway sales plan coming along?

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
  33. This is just the first step... by yodaj007 · · Score: 2, Funny

    ... to buying virtual wives from virtual Russia.

    --
    These aren't the sigs you're looking for.
  34. Re:I'll tell you by Trick · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Hey, I resent that!

    I'm a liberal socialist hacker... well, no, I resent being called *that* too, but it's pretty low on the list of things I, as a liberal socialist hacker, resent these days.

    However, if someone tells me I'm bad and wrong for spending my money on something other than starving children, he's getting whacked upside the head by the nearest heavy chunk of metal I can find. I've got an old full-height 10-meg MFM hard drive here, and I'm not afraid to use it.

    Sure, the starving children of the world need food. I'm all for sending stuff to them, if that's what you feel like doing. However, if you feel like buying an iPod, a sports car, a virtual island, or whatever else you feel like conspicuously consuming, go for it! Guess what? If you do, you're *helping people*. People make a living building and selling iPods, sports cars, and virtual islands. You're putting food on *their* tables. They may not be pitiful starving wretches, but that's only because people like you buy their (sometimes dubious) stuff instead of living like a hermit in a cave (or cardboard box, for those of you in urban areas) and sending all your hard-earned cash overseas to starving kids.

    People who think it's some sort of sin to spend money on something other than "saving the world" need to get a grip. If we all spent money the way they think we should, this whole friggin' planet would fall apart.

  35. How much did your computer cost again? by SuperKendall · · Score: 2, Insightful

    That's what I thought.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  36. SnowCrash by Dalroth · · Score: 2, Informative

    While I think this is a bit premature, some of you nay-sayers really need to read Snowcrash. A virtual economy is inevitable, and few stories I've read have captured the awesome potential as well as Snowcrash did.

    Bryan

  37. Bargains galore! by AndroidCat · · Score: 3, Funny
    I'll sell a virtual island for just $2,650!
    @
    Okay, it's a little small, but it has a nice volcano in the middle. You can really feel at home.
    --
    One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
  38. But I don't want to marry her! by Thud457 · · Score: 3, Funny

    " Listen, lad. I built this virtual kingdom up from virtually nothing. When I started here, all there was virtual swamp. Other virtual kings said I was virtually daft to build a virtual castle on a virtual swamp, but I virtually built it all the same, just to show 'em. It virtually sank into the virtual swamp. So, I virtually built a second one. That virtually sank into the virtual swamp. So, I virtually built a third one. That virtually burned down, virtually fell over, then virtually sank into the virtual swamp, but the fourth one... virtually stayed up! And that's what you're virtually gonna get, virtual lad: virtually the strongest virtual castle in these virtual islands."

    --

    the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

  39. Entropia hazards by Vexar · · Score: 2, Interesting
    I made about 13 US Cents an hour playing that game. I think I burned twice that on electricity and heat. It took me a solid month to get it out of my system, like a binge, of sorts. The real problem with PE was that they would regularly NOT treat the in-game money like real money. I was a salaried member of the leading society at the time of the general public release, and at one point, our society pulled up its tent stakes and said "no more."


    What may cause that, you wonder? Our banker character's holdings were zeroed out. That would be $4000 USD, gone. Explanation? Our banker had bought an item (third-hand) from someone who had crafted an item which was fake, somehow. Members of our society were pulling down about $400 a month playing this game. Enough to pay rent to Mom and Dad, I suppose. Sad, pathetic, and lonely in so many ways that matter, but true enough.


    One of our businesses was banking. We would trade in-game money for real money, back when PayPal was trustworthy. The makers of PE had something like 10% transaction fees, we charged a much more competitive rate, and managed perhaps 20-30% of the real money going into the game, early on.


    As a direct result of this game, I read most of a field guide for geology, learned how to write some pretty solid Active Server Pages, and had some noteworthy personal growth.