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Poland Blocks European Software Patent Vote, For Now
Anonymous Brave Guy writes "Thanks to the Polish Minister of Science and Information Technology, Wlodzimierz Marcinski, Europe has dropped the current proposal for software patents. He made a special journey to Brussels to withdraw the proposal, basically in protest at the way the patents were being pushed through by the back door. Since the European presidency is about to pass to Luxembourg, this has effectively killed the idea, at least for the immediate future." More at FFII (Foundation for a Free Information Infrastructure). This means that the promised move to delay actually worked.
at least slashdot didn't forget about poland. :)
Maybe the EU saying no to software patents will have some sort of influence on the US. Especially if people in Europe could make it a point of contention.
EU readers please Thank Poland!
Good news for everyone, all we need to do is stop it completely and see if we can get the rest of the world to follow suit. Respect to the EFF, FFII and other organisations involved.
Time for the obligatory troll - 7th post =P
It was quite a surprise, and thanks God - it is done. Of coarse, they (we know who they are) will try again and again, but in fact that they lost it second time, so I think they will eventually run out of arguments if they will try it next time.
:)
Thanks to open source, free software and small IT business advocates and lobbies who made it happen, everyone who tried to provide insightful information to diplomats and goverments.
Thank you
user@ubuntubox:~$ stfu This server is going down for shutdown NOW!
No, it is NOT a dupe. If you read the summary it states quite clearly, that this is a follow-up on yesterdays story.
Keep open minded - but not that open your brain falls out...
This may be only a temporary reprieve, but it could also, quite possibly, be a sign that the tides may be changing in the Council. Let's all hope for the best, and do what we can to make it happen.
Christian Engström, Former Member of the European Parliament 2009-2014 for The Pirate Party, Sweden
I for one am grateful to our Polish voting overlords.
It's about time one of the countries in Europe had a government with a spine. I'm from the UK and ours doesn't, unless it's about introducing draconian ID card measures without listening to anyone and ignoring any consultation it required and dismissing it as irrelivant.
Go POLAND!!!
In other news, Canada reports many cancellations of immigration requests from EU citizens...
Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
i say: damn it!
That is twice now they hav saved Europe's ass. Being the first to break the German's Enigma machine and now this.
Granted in the whole scheme of things, that first one might have been a little more important.
So I never understood this, why does Poland seem to end up being the butt of jokes? Or is that just a US thing?
Its unlikely that Poland would have done this as a pure solo effort, for fear of a backlash. There must have been others behind the scene agreeing with the position, with Poland making the defiant stance.
Does this mean that Poland acted as the front for a number of smaller countries. Or did a politician REALLY make a stand based on principle against all commers.
An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
Intriguing. So this is what they mean by government for the people. I've never seen that before (being a citizen of government for the big corporation).
He made a special journey to Brussels to withdraw the proposal, basically in protest at the way the patents were being pushed through by the back door
:-/
Cool, someone got it.
Here's hoping this action by Poland will make MORE clueless ministers go "huh? why did he feel it so necessary to stop that" and actually start reading up on the subject.
I fear the software giants will bring up this over and over again as long as EU says "no" though.
Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
Now Polish people get to tell EU jokes.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
Uh, I think you forgot about the Battle of Warsaw , where Poland really saved Europe!
"Over the corpse of White Poland lies the road to worldwide conflagration." - General Tukhachevsky, Red Army, 1920.
Microsoft loses it's appeal, software patents are blocked, and satan just called to ask if he could borrow my skates.
Considering the fact that the Dutch hold the EU presidency for the remainder of the year (to be replaced by Lux. next year), is there any evidence that the Lux. presidency will take a different approach? I haven't been following the more subtle aspects of this issue, but Lux. is part of the Benelux trio (Belgium, Netherlands, and Luxembourg) that often ally themselves for leverage against some of the larger EU countries. Is it likely that Lux. will take a different stance on this issue or continue down the same path?
They did break the first version, it was later upgraded with an additional wheel, and that upgraded one was cracked by Turing at Bletchley. A few links: http://www.codesandciphers.org.uk/virtualbp/poles/ poles.htm, http://www.armyradio.com/publish/Articles/The_Enig ma_Code_Breach/The_Enigma_Code_Breach.htm, http://www.enigmahistory.org/enigma.html.
This and other Polish contributions to WWII were kept quiet at the end of the war to avoid annoying Stalin, and it was carried into history writing (especially in the UK) for a long time. Too many exaples to mention, the Enigma is but one...
Given the recent bittorrent raids in Europe at the behest of the MPAA etc..
What agreements are there between Europe and the U.S. concerning patent law?
I know the Berne Conventions have established parity between the U.S. and Europe regarding copyright law - essentially making U.S. copyrights enforceable in Europe and visa-versa. Are there similar agreements regarding patents?
If so, European developers may not be off the hook. Sure European companies won't be able to create software patents - but that wouldn't stop Microsoft or other U.S. companies from enforcing their patents.
Is there a lawyer (or someone that passes for one) in the house?
Lodragan Draoidh
The more you explain it, the more I don't understand it. - Mark Twain
Even though people pull jokes and Poland's not really been any of the 'top ranked' countries in the west (or the east for that matter); I have never been prouder of being polish!
IANAL, but I thought that ideas were patented (such as an alogorithm, or 1 click shopping (groan), or a process to do something in a (supposedly) novel way). . . (I know, there are other things that can be patented but I don't think that software was one of them) Ideas that are implemented in software can be protected by patent so that another person cannot implement the same protected idea in another piece of software . . . but this protection of the idea, not the software.
Software is copyrighted in that the code itself is protected not the ideas. So one can write code to do the same thing but your code and my code can be filed under different copyrights and both be legal . . . so long as we don't copy one another's code even if the two piece of code perform equivalent tasks. In other words, two major encyclopedias or almanacs may be functionally equivalent, but they are not infringing upon one another from a copyright perspective unless one copied the other.
For me this is the first really good thing coming out of the bigger EU. If you'd like to comment to the party of Brinkhorst, contact D66 (Dutch, but you probably will understand it), his party, or mail them: international@d66.nl. Here's a quote from their site:
I remember as a child in the 70's that Polish jokes were a lot more popular. The US always had a lot of Polish immigrants and if you don't know Polish, their names appeared pretty weird to us. They also tended to work a lot of jobs like coal mining where you don't have to have a college degree to be there. ...
So I'm guessing that 1) weird names that aren't pronounced (in English!) like they are spelled 2) make mistakes when they speak English, like dropping definite articles, because their language doesn't have these features 3) work manual labor jobs like coal mining
that all of these things led to the idea that Poles were "stupid". It seems to me that things changed with the crackdown on Solidarity in the 1980's and ever since then, I haven't heard as many Polish jokes. Americans had a lot of sympathy for Poles because they viewed them as freedom loving people who were forcibly imprisoned in a system (Communism) that they didn't want. I think that Americans have a favorable view of Poland in general and honestly don't think they are stupid people.
It seems that all kinds of people in America have jokes about various subgroups depending on where they live. I had a guy from Minnesota tell me a Swedish joke, which really wasn't all that funny to me because I live in Georgia and we don't have a history of large scale Scandinavian immigration here like they do in Minnesota and some states near it. I've had relatives from Texas tell me "Aggie" jokes, which are jokes about Texas A&M University. These jokes mean nothing to me and they aren't all that funny. Maybe Polish jokes originated in places like Pennsylvania or Illinois, where there was large scale Polish immigration over the years.
well, thanks for the enlightenment. I simply didn't knew what i was doing here four years long... ;-)
you are not your sig
The US has to get their patent system in order or it will collapse. The only real purpose for the patent system with software is to employ lawyers in the software business and to harass innovative companies competing with larger companies. Both are counterproductive in developing computer technologu and for that mater mankinds development.
The EU wants to develop their software business and do not want to let the likes of Microsoft come in and stifle growth with legal harassment. Even if you do no infringe, the mere fact a small company or individual is legally challenged is enough to put them out and under. The EU is doing it right by not letting in US legal problems into their system. A good recent example is how long and how far can SCO go before someone puts the execs in jail for extortion? Or perhaps the SEC for stock manipulation.
And since most software patents can find their root in previous works or ideas developed in public universities and not really inside the business they originated in, most are fraudulent patents. Patents were meant to protect the original developing company from infringement. Microsoft didn't invent windows, XEROX/PA did. MIT did X before Microsoft had an OS. So So by rights, any patent on Windows by Microsoft is derived work and not an original invention. These patents should be rejected.
Unless Canada and the US revise the law, I figure in 3-5 years most of our software will come from EU, India or China. Want a software development job, go to EU, India or China. Poland has the right idea, it will develop and keep their people at home.
Well, our Dutch minister Brinkhorst unfortunately still hasn't changed his vote, although our own parlaiment has voted against software patents. I did send an e-mail last spring to his party's office that his behaviour on this subject was a mayor reason for me to no vote on his party in the last european elections.
According to himself he's just afraid to lose face by changing his vote. But I think there's more to it. Any dutchies reading this, please let then know they are loosing votes over this issue.
http://www.d66.nl/contact
RogerWilco the Adventurous Janitor
He has been an IT manager in private business and studied Mathematics - i almost wet my pants of happiness as i read his CV. :) - Heres to Wlodzimierz Marcinski!
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This is one politician i want to decide such matters as he actually has knowledge of what he is doing. Im so glad Poland is now in the EU
I wish we had politicians like him in Denmark when we decide IT politics
The Software Patent Directive has been withdrawn from the Agenda of the Council of Agriculture and Fisheries.
Have I really not been paying enough attention to realize that when people said, "it's being pushed through the back door," that this is what they meant? Or does the EU have strange, overgrown branches of government (such that Agriculture and Fisheries really does control software rulings)? Or was this just a joke from the FFII?
Donate free food here
One argument I use against software patents is what happened in the 80s with the IBM PC. They had a monopoly on that particular architecture. So another company (I think it was Phoenix, please correct me) did some clean-room engineering and produced a compatible BIOS, enabling competition. Had IBM patented the BIOS, there would have been no competition and the entire PC industry could have turned out differently
Poland hasn't forgotten the debates, either - they've pulled out of Iraq. What kind of America makes Poland look like compassionate conservatives?
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make install -not war
The software patent decision was twice undemocratic, first the parliament was ignored, second it was passed through the council of ministers by trickery.
No matter what you think of software patents, everyone should be happy that someone in EU thinks democracy is worth taking serious.
Funny that it should be one of the new members, given the "superior" attitude most of the old members take.
I can imagine Washington and Redmond right now:
(From the script of Dr. Strangelove)
Now look boys, I ain't much of a hand at makin' speeches. But I got a pretty fair idea that something doggoned important's going on back there. And I got a fair idea of the kind of personal emotions that some of you fella's may be thinking. Heck, I reckon you wouldn't even be human beings if you didn't have some pretty strong personal feelings about software Patents. But I want you to remember one thing, the folks back home is a countin' on ya, and by golly we ain't about to let 'em down. Tell you somethin' else. This thing turns out to be half as important is I figure it just might be, I'd say that you're all in line for some important promotions and personal citations when this thing's over with. That goes for every last one of you, regardless of your race, color, or your creed. Now, let's get this thing on the hump. We got some lobbying to do.
Donate free food here
Lord Sainsbury, the Minister for Science and Innovation, although you could also write to Patricia Hewitt, who's Secretary of State for Trade and Industry and e-Minister in Cabinet (whatever that means).
how can the logical sequence of mathematical ideas and expressions be patentable? If it is, let me be the first to patent the "algorithm" which is defined as a sequence of equations, decisions and other programming structures that is used to manipulate inputs and outputs.
Being able to patent software is just ludicrous - this means that unless you want to do something brand-spanking new in code, you will probably be infringeing on something even if you've never seen someone elses code. Let's say, for instance, you want to write some software that makes shopping lists and tallies the total cash you will spend - you'll get nobbled by M$ cos they've patented Excel and they have lawyers with liberal interpretations of the claims to do with a spreadsheet program.
Brings me in mind of something I was taught a long wile ago - programming is the creation of sequences of expressions. Something to think about...
-- Intelligence is soluble in alcohol
I agree. I want the US to be part of Kyoto, and have posted extensively so on Slashdot. I also want to be realistic about the nature of our problem: those American cars contribute to much of the productivity, as well as the electricity (eg. aluminum refining is a huge electric consumer). And American power generation/consumption, largely led by California, is among the cleanest in the world. It's not clean enough, and I want the US to lead the world the way California leads the US.
The US "economy" (there are actually many here, more separated every day) represents the main problem: overconsumption and waste. Not necessarily inefficient waste of energy, but the overall waste of vast disposable unnecessary consumption. Many social problems are ignored by consuming instead, like an alcoholic from a broken home, perpetuating the problems. We need to fix those, before we've used up the resources we've already pushed to the breaking point. But exaggerating the problems, especially America's role, is a sure way to alienate the worst victims/perpetuators of these problems: the ignorant, alienated Americans who get nothing but corporate propaganda from their monopoly media. We're all connected - we need to stick together to get through this nightmare.
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make install -not war
The difference lies in the pressure from their home markets and the place where they can develop software. EU companies can safely develop their software for their home market undisturbed by considerations of patent law, and even get a few strategic patents in the US. Once they grow big enough to make the jump over the big pond, they have plenty of time to prepare themselves to cope with US patent law. They will also be big enough to start cross-licensing agreements etc. If need be, they can buy the licenses for the rights they miss. Only for the USA.
No such luck for US companies. They will have to cope with software patents from day one if they want to grow in their home market. This will hamper their growth and potentially kill their business early on. Furthermore, if they survive this and want to start selling their software abroad, they can not easily ignore patent law, even for software only sold outside of the United States. This because the software will be *developed* inside the US, and on this the patent holder can but a stop to it. Even if it's not sold in the US, patent law makes it illegal to actually manufacture it.
So if they want to make the move to the rest of the world with patent encumbered products, they'll have to move the development (design, architecture, etc.) to a place outside of the US as well. In practice they will cease being an US software company. Of course they can also obtain the necessary licenses for the patented software, but they will be competing in the rest of the world with local companies (that are not operating in the US) that do not have to pay this patent tax.
Most importantly however, certain types of software will simply not be made in the US. I personally was involved in a scheme like this, where in the early nineties I worked for a company that independently developed something that turned out to be patented in the US. The one that patented the general technique did not really build a business out of it, but the existence of the patent itself has kept all possible competition from the US at bay. Nobody would invest in anything remotely connected to it because there were litigation issues involved.
The only competitor this company has seen in the US that uses a technique similar to the one we've been using all this time went to great lengths to establish a patent of their own that was significantly different from the original patent. We however could safely develop the technique, use and sell it in Europe, grow, develop alternative techniques as a second plan, attract investors, while in the meantime we've collected sufficient prior art to annihilate this particular patent if need be. This company is now operating in the USA as well without any problem or direct competition as the US inventor has preemptively killed all US competition.
Unfortunately, here the story ends as Barnes and Noble found out.
I didn't say that the US is the best at making money, therefore most environmentally friendly. What I said was that the US produces 35% of the product, with 25% of the energy. That's productivity. The hundreds of millions of Chinese and Indian people who don't produce, but endure the consequences, are also bearing the consequences of their Chinese and Indian neighbors, who pollute much more: per capita, per production, per watt, any way you slice it. In that respect, the "us" and "them" lines drawn by country are aribitrary, except as a solution to the pollution problem: national governments have the power to improve productivity per pollution. Since macroeconomics limits the total production, that means lowering pollution.
I'd like to see China and India apply California emissions standards to their cars. And I'd like to see the USA join the Kyoto regime, as a start. Later the regime, or another that follows once we're doing that kind of thing, can more agressively reduce global pollution - for example, by making India and China meet the same kinds of standards as the USA. We're already more productive per pollution, per watt, per dollar - we ought to get them to join the playing field where we can outcompete them, benefiting economically, and reduce pollution, too. The world is becoming so small that pollution control ought to reflect the same practice as a party: the reduction in smoke is determined by those most sensitive to smoke- not determined by who's got the biggest cigars.
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make install -not war
I'm not agreeing that he is troll per sé. Granted, at first I thought so too, but usually trolls don't do that much effort to give understandable responses. It is difficult to see the difference between someone having an oposite view, and believing it and strongly advocating it, and trolling. Being called a troll myself occasionally, I think I have some rights to claim this. :-)
As for slashsoup:
"Society has concluded that the net effect of patents on technology is positive, not just less negative. Why is it that you think the net effect on software is negative? "
Actually, no. Society has not concluded this at all. Governments of the 18th and 19th century thought that it would have a positive effect, and in some fields where the incremental nature is less (such as farmaceuticals) this might be true. It's worth noting, however, that australia in the 80ies examined the influence of patents, and found that, overall, patents did *not* do what they were supposed to do. They recommended abolishing it, but ofcourse, foreign pressure and worldwide inertia because of the common use of patents excluded that.
So, it's not because it's "so good" that it should and is being kept alive; in many fields it would stimulate progress much more if patents weren't there. In the field of software, however, it becomes more obvious (due to the incremental nature of softwarepatents) how outright negative this is. Also, more and more studies about this topic have been done, and almost all (at least the non-corporate sponsored ones) have shown that softwarepatents do more harm then good.
Now, you can lament and say 'then all patents in all fields should be abolished', and maybe many should, indeed, at least those where the benefits do not outweigh the advantages. But the fact is, we do not, as yet, have the same inertia that already is established for patents in other fields, at least in europe. And it seems to me, it's illogical to expect europe to create a bad patentlaw, because others have allowed bad patentlaws.
I'm all for a grand, scientific and independend research into the advantages and disadvantages of softwarepatents (and maybe other fields as well), and if they reach their stated claims/goals...and then base the decision solely on this. But ofcourse, in reality you have politics, money and lobbying, so..fat chance that happening. Thus, we are left with the strong indications that independend research thusfar *has* shown us, and logical reasoning to consider what is best for europe, as a whole (which means in an economical sense; for SME's, because more then 80% of the workforce in Europe is concentrated in those, and not big foreign softwarecompanies).
So you see, though you might feel you have an inate right on a softwarepatent, that is really not the issue. It's what is best for society, and best for europe. In both instances, research and logic dictates it's a *NO* for softwarepatents.
--- "To pee or not to pee, that is the question." ---