Reinventing the Wheel

bob zee sent in this link about reinventing the wheel, err, tweel, err, whatever. Wheels are an interesting challenge in engineering design: they need to be hard to be durable, soft for a smooth ride, grippy to grab the road, but smooth to reduce rolling resistance, flexible to absorb shocks, yet stiff to reduce heat build-up, and so on. Rubber tires are a relatively recent invention.

Comments

Wrong Direction?

[fembots]

If the article (and test) is accurate, almost nothing's good about this Tweel, but let's not give up hope yet. If lobbysts have their way, a new noise-reduction pad and better suspension will be "invented" so that problems like noise and feel of a coarse road surface (introduced by this Tweel) can be eliminated.

It's like somebody created an OS, but it's full of security holes, fear not, we can always create software like firewall and anti-virus to solve those problems.

Re:Wrong Direction?

[SIGALRM]

If the article (and test) is accurate, almost nothing's good about this Tweel

I think it's an interesting engineering feat, although they might have a hard time marketing it in Arkansas, where it appears non-pneumatic tires are prohibited for speeds > 10mph.

I wonder if other states maintain such restrictions?

Re:Wrong Direction?

[Crash24]

I agree. In spite of the obvious problems, tt does look promising.
On second thought, what if debris gets caught in the polyurethane spokes?

Re:Wrong Direction?

[DeathFlame]

So they improved it in two ways: It won't go flat. and you get more traction (due to stiffer side stability, which you can get in a narrow profile tire anyways)

But the negatives:

1) It Weighs More - and that weight has a huge impact because rolling mass is much more difficult to move

2) More Friction - Again, a drop in efficency due to difficult in rolling the wheel

3) More Expensive - No longer a need for "expensive" tire pressure monitoring systems (which probably aren't all that expensive, although they are sometimes troublesome) and you don't have to replace your tires as often, but if the tweels cost 3x as much, there is no saving here

4) Noise - No one likes loud tires.

Now I doubt they can get the weight down to a point that is ever lower than that of a rubber air filled tire (air is... well very light) but I could see a weight improvement, and the friction improvement both helping with research and design. And the cost of the tires will always probably remain higher, so this looks like long term technology to me.

Re:Wrong Direction?

[mordors9]

In Arkansas.... but they would look good on all the cars up on blocks in the front yards :-)

Re:Wrong Direction?

[MavEtJu]

It's a good thing that it doesn't apply to the railroad :-)

Re:Wrong Direction?

[pz]

1) It Weighs More - and that weight has a huge impact because rolling mass is much more difficult to move

The materials they used are proof-of-concept, rather than advanced. With the tweel design, automotive engineers will be liberated from the traditional axle-into-hub design, and the tweel can mount directly on the axle, eliminating the heavy metallic wheel.

2) More Friction - Again, a drop in efficency due to difficult in rolling the wheel

Materials. I'm impressed that they got to within 5% at the first go-around!

3) More Expensive - No longer a need for "expensive" tire pressure monitoring systems (which probably aren't all that expensive, although they are sometimes troublesome) and you don't have to replace your tires as often, but if the tweels cost 3x as much, there is no saving here

Scale of manufacturing will solve that.

4) Noise - No one likes loud tires

Again, materials. Recall that traditional tires have thousands upon thousands upon thousands of man-years of development!

Re:Wrong Direction?

[Martin Blank]

if the tweels cost 3x as much, there is no saving here

If they last 3x as long (as the article suggests they might) then it balances out, and there is at least a possibility of savings of time from not having to change the tires as often, not to mention the lower volume of scrap material.

Re:Wrong Direction?

[Hjalmar]

1) Wouldn't a heavy tire glide over road surfaces better because of better inertia, because once it starts moving it keeps moving better than a light object?

Um, no. Lighter wheels result in smoother ride because the suspension is able to move them up and down quickly over rough surfaces. Heavier wheels don't move as quickly, and movement from uneven surfaces winds up being transmitted to the rest of the car. This is why vehicles with big wheels (like trucks) tend to have a poorer ride quality than cars.

Also, lighter wheels can be pushed back down after bouncing over a bump more quickly than a heavy wheel, which means better traction.

Re:Wrong Direction?

[emptor]

Well, the interstates were started as the National Defense Highway System .

When President Eisenhower went to Kansas to announce the interstate highway system, he announced it as "the National Defense Highway System." In 1956 President Eisenhower signed legislation establishing the National System of Interstate and Defense Highways (about 41,000 miles of roads).

Now, what your typical razorback trooper's going to say might have as much to do the size of your gun as it does with how much tarmac you've chewed up.

Re:Wrong Direction?

[Franklin Pierce]

Other negatives:

Uses a small percentage of the total volume of the tyre to support and cushion.

I mean, seriously, solid tyre hoo-ha surfaces every decade or two with the regularity of a herpes outbreak only to fade into the obscurity it deserves. Pneumatic tyres are that way for a reason, and it's called a compromise between simplicity, light-weight, and performance. You can only sacrifice so much in one direction before it becomes simply unacceptable.

Wheels?

[aznxk3vi17]

Out of all the things to reinvent... the wheel?

I'm still waiting on that new mousetrap! That Rube-Goldberg device of a game just isn't cutting it.

Re:Wheels?

[MikeXpop]

In all fairness, this really isn't reinventing the wheel. The Tweel is still a wheel. They did reinvent the tire though.

Re:Wheels?

[WillDraven]

I fail to see what ancient Phoenician cities have to do with wheels.

Re:Wheels?

[lessthanjakejohn]

:wtf: Yeah, posts are now requiered to be submitted in seven different languages.

Filed under "Technology"...

[Vexler]

Great. Back to the basics. What's next - the incline plane?

Bikes!

[odyrithm]

"Engineers at Michelin's American technology center here envision a future in which vehicles would ride on what they call the Tweel, a combined tire and wheel that could never go flat because it contains no air"

Please let them bring these out for motorbikes, thats one of those things we bikers dream about.. a tyre that never goes pop when your doing 100mph down the autobarnes.

Obvious idea.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Wheels are an interesting challenge in engineering design: they need to be hard to be durable, soft for a smooth ride, grippy to grab the road, but smooth to reduce rolling resistance, flexible to absorb shocks, yet stiff to reduce heat build-up, and so on. "

And yet we can't patent any of it.

Bikes!-Organ Donors.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Please let them bring these out for motorbikes, thats one of those things we bikers dream about.. a tyre that never goes pop when your doing 100mph down the autobarnes."

If you're doing a 100MPH down the Autobahn? Tires going 'pop' are going to be the least of your worries. Of course 'pop' could simply be Darwin calling another biker home.

Re:Bikes!-Organ Donors.

[phoenix321]

You obviously never drove any German Autobahn, I'm sure. 100mph ~ 160kph and that's a normal vehicle speed over here. 130kph is officially "suggested" speed, but especially bike riders go lengths and lengths beyond that. 250kph ~ 155 mph is upper limit for most German motorbikers.

Trucks and heavy vehicles can go 80kph/50mph, buses 100kph/62mph and everything else is unlimited by law.
Compact cars, 3-doors etc. usually drive between 80kph (old and rugged cars/drivers) and 130kph with a few exceptions, notably Volkswagen "Lupo" and "Golf" in the "suicide engine" version with 120 or more HP, they are driven by lunatics 200kph or more no matter if the road is dry or below solid ice. But they are few and far between and you sure know why.

Middle-class goes between 140 and 200kph, that range usually covers the bulk of cars. High powered suicide versions exist in this class, too, with 200 or more HP. And people who own them drive accordingly, tendency stable - more airbags 'n stuff I suppose.
Cars beyond 200kph are less than 10%, usually the upper BMW, Mercedes Benz and Volkswagen models. They announce themselves from half a kilometre away with full headbeam and constant left turn indicator. If any driver is in front of them, they will brake at the last moment possible, if ever. Most other drivers cave in long before and leave the fastest inner lane rather quick if they see them approaching.

Tire popping is seldom cause for accidents, most of the time it's trucks or other vehicles breaking out of 80kph formation on 1st going into 2nd lane overtaking some while forcing a "regular" car going 180kph or less out from 2nd to 3rd fastest lane. Where they collide with a suicide compact or fast upper class car from behind.

I don't know that many Autobahn routes here in Germany, but I'd wager 30-40% of all routes are unlimited and 3-lane. The rest is 2-lane and limited to 120kph/75mph or 100kph, as the road condition permits. Autobahns passing larger cities are often limited for "lower noise level", near poorer cities for "speed control fills city coffers"-reason.

It is not uncommon to have limits on a road to exist for various reasons, wind, noise, whatever, but road condition permits MUCH higher speeds. Everyone drives according to road condition then, bearing the risk of being "flashed" by police with radar speed cameras. Poorer municipalities are actually notorious for this and you cannot drive more than 200kms without meeting one of these cameras if you're unlucky.

In cities, there are even more cameras. Can't drive longer than 30 minutes without seeing one in any city. It is even possible to have the German police temporarily limit a normally unlimited stretch of 3-lane Autobahn to 80kph or less and then lurking for and cashing in on "speeders" at the end of that temp limit zone. Shameless entrapment.

Fines for speeding ~25 euros for less than 10km over, 50 euros for less than 20kms over and 100 or 200 euros for everything beyong, leading quickly to 2000 or losing license for more than 40 above.

Germany has the most eased road laws in Europe, so nobody obeys the speed limit nowhere. In answer to that, speed limits are set much too low everywhere in hope the drivers will go their "usual 20kph" above and still keep on track. That way police and law enforcement can endlessly bilk drivers for their money while always having law on their side and public outrage silent. Nice trick, eh?

In Norway for example, 10kph over the limit are rather expensive: 200 eur, 600 for over 20kph. There, speed limits are set almost right, with around 5-10kph left above. Eastern Europe speed limits are equally hard for everyone carrying Euros in their pocket but speed limits are brutally true. Any limit posted is true to the letter if not a bit daring on a dry and sunny day.

Re:Bikes!-Organ Donors.

[The_Mr_Flibble]

A friend who used to drive a tank was stationed in Germany and one time he was blasting down the Autobahn in their tank at some ridiculus speed when all the traffic stopped (an accident of some sort all though by the time my friend reached that part it had gone) Well has anyone here seen a tank stop they are very good at it and they have a tendancy to pivot up in the air a bit. Well this was all fine and dandy, they didn't hit the car in front, however the guy in the merc behind them was not so lucky his car couldn't stop as fast as the tank so when the tank finaly came back down there was a merc there to cussion the fall.

Re:Seriously guys

[Crash24]

When was the last time anyone of you had a flat tire?

Last week, you insensitive clod.

Two words

[Dh2000]

Snow Crash

I beg to differ.

[Infinity Salad]

I didn't read the article and test as showing 'almost nothing good.'

While the concept has some obvious bugs to work out (vibration, suspension issues), they are nothing insurmountable and it seems to me that the tweel is a step in the right direction - more responsive handling, fewer parts and less end waste (i.e. rather than chucking the tweel away when it is worn down, you have it retreaded. This reduction in landfill waste alone makes it worth checking out).

I don't know about 'tweel' though. . .

Re:I beg to differ.

[DeathFlame]

Rubber tires are already used in asphalt for improved roads, so the rubber tire landfill issue is becoming non existant.

Re:I beg to differ.

[Infinity Salad]

As well as athletic fields and other creative recycling projects; however, I don't believe we are anywhere near 100% reuse (though I could be wrong).

There is also the argument that because you only need to replace the tread, fewer resources are consumed in the replacement process (an environmental boon on the other end of the product's life).

Re:I beg to differ.

[Penguinshit]

There are also power-generation facilities that burn discarded tires to generate electricity.

Re:I beg to differ.

[DeathFlame]

Wrong wrong wrong. At least in the province of Alberta where I live. In fact the report I just read but the Tire Recycling Manufacturers Association said that they were worried that there wouldn't be ENOUGH used tires to fill the increasing demand for different scrap tire rubber products.

Now these uses are far more than rubberized asphalt, but that is only one example of the many products you can create with this.

I think I've seen this some where before....

[Anonymous Coward]

I think this (http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/spotlight/wheels-i mage02.html ) is an example of government research going to a consumer product....

Think large....

Interesting if you RTFA

[razmaspaz]

No doubt this article submission will get bashed for not being about star wars; but this is a fairly interesting article, if you take the time to read it. I was particularly interested in the fact that this "tire" improves cornering while maintaining a smooth ride. No doubt all the NASCAR fans out there will be happy. While I am sure this is a long way off, it looks promising.

Re:Seriously guys

[random735]

most recently, a few weeks ago when i was in cairo and the taxi driver hit a pothole, bending both rims on the passenger side, leaving the tires flat.

before that, about 2 years ago when i hit a roofing nail, causing a slow leak (woke up the next morning, tire was flat)

then we could also count biking...in which case i've had more than i want to count, and a bike tire that can't go flat would be awfully nice...nothing sucks more than having to stop and patch a tire in the middle of a bike ride...plus having to carry all the tools needed to do the job.

this idea has merits, contrary to what your post seems to imply.

Re:horrible aerodynamic drag on paddle-wheel tires

[nizo]

I figure the loud swooshing noise made by the tires would actually be a bonus, since it would drown out all the weird rattling noises my car normally makes. Plus I can only imagine how cool the water would look flying out the sides of the tires after a big rainstorm.

Matters of importance

[TimboJones]

Almost everything else about the Tweel is undetermined at this early stage of development, including serious matters like cost and frivolous questions like the possibilities of chrome-plating.

Chrome-plating frivolous?! Forget cost -- don't you know that chrome makes it faster?

Re:horrible aerodynamic drag on paddle-wheel tires

[sreid]

my bet is that it's a cutout to show you how it's made inside, if not they could put this on off road vehicles treading water

Re:horrible aerodynamic drag on paddle-wheel tires

[Leperflesh]

Gee, do you think maybe these engineers aren't total idiots?

I mean, seriously.

Not to be mean. It's a thought. I'm sure it took them all of 12 seconds to decide not to expose a bunch of radial fins on the side of the tire. Maybe another 4 to decide not to make the tire out of chalk, too. I bet they spent another 9 rejecting granite sidewalls as an option.

-Lep

Re:Seriously guys

[WhatAmIDoingHere]

Last month I hit a pot hole in the middle of the mall parking lot (didn't see it, the whole parking lot was a lake due to the warm temps and rain) puncturing the sidewall of the tire.

Why do you ask?

Re:horrible aerodynamic drag on paddle-wheel tires

[mOoZik]

Are you an idiot? No, seriously. That was a CUTOUT so you could see what it looks like inside! Do you think any engineer would be so stupid to design a tire like that? If it didn't have a cutout, someone as ignorant as you would proclaim that it looks no different than a typical radial!

It may not get punctures

[AC-x]

But is it actually much stronger?

The article doesn't mention what would happen if they did fail but if you drive over a large lump very fast will these spokes break and cause a nasty dent in the tire (resulting in a rather bumpy ride)?

Lantern law

[Anonymous Coward]

"where it appears non-pneumatic tires are prohibited for speeds > 10mph."

That's not half as bad as the requirement that a person waving a lantern has to walk ten feet in front of the car to avoid spooking horses. They really need to change that law. The wife is getting tired of waving a lantern everytime we go out to dinner.

What we really need to do is

[MrRuslan]

Use stone wheels and make the roads out of iflateable rubber that way no one gets a flat, just everyone at the same time.

Re:Seriously guys

[zeus_tfc]

I got one Dec 18th (this last one), at 2:00 in the afternoon, and had to change the tire in sub-zero temperatures. I couldn't get warm for the rest of the day. Then I tried to get it fixed that day so that I didn't have to drive to work the next day on one of those donuts. Unfortunately, noone was open because it was Sunday.

I could do without going through that again.

Re:horrible aerodynamic drag on paddle-wheel tires

[olyar]

For what its worth, I have a master's degree in Mechanical Engineering and am, in fact, an idiot. So its not impossible...

superhero dispair

[nmec]

This is absurd, how will secret agents be able to survive underwater for a few minutes whilst their arch-enemies check for survivors to a mysterious car crash?

Wheel is Patented

[fishbowl]

Even if you reinvent it, you will be liable for royalties.

USPTO 5,707,114

Re:Seriously guys

[m0llusk]

Actually, underinflation is an extremely common problem with inflatable tires. This reduces mileage, increases noise, and can reduce manuverability and also increase the probability of a rupture. If the design problems with this "tweel" thing can be worked out it might be a superior solution without these risks.

As far as the aerodynamics of exposed ribs go, it seems that the example in the photograph was intended for initial testing of this concept on Segway scooters. If you are driving a Segway fast enough for wind resistance to be a big factor then your clothes and hairstyle will be the first things to check and get under control.

Potential here

[Presence1]

The key here is the decoupling of the spring rate of the tire from the sidewall stiffness. That is HUGE and will give them all kinds of ability to dial in performance, ride, and other characteristics.

But there is a definite shortage of info in this article.

The statement '2-3x longer tread life than a radial' could be great, or it could be meaningless. Tread life is largely a function of tread compound, and a trade-off against grip level. They can make an extremely grippy tread that will only last for a few laps to qualify for a race, or a hard tread that will last 100K miles, but not both. Are they are actully projecting an ability to control the contact patch of this new wheel/tire so well that it wears less with the same compound, or are they merely planning to build it with a hard compound?

Another issue is the weight. Extra weight here is in the worst possible place for the car's performance -- rotating, unsprung, and far from the car's rotational center of mass. This wheel/tire looks heavier with the ribs under the tread. However, it could actually be lighter with polyethelene spokes, and lighter sidewalls that only have to keep out dirt, not react the loads. (Of course, I'm not sure how far I'd want to push the side loads on those poly spokes, but that's another story...). I'd have to conclude right now that it is heavier, or they'd promote that benefit too.

I think they're on to something interesting here. Is there any other info around on these issues?

Trust me, watch which wheel you re-invent.

[has2k1]

I took a Java course in college and the first chapter in the Course Text was all about not re-inventing the wheel.
But when I got a program off the internet and handed it in for my assignment I was penalised heavily.

I give up

[SuperBanana]

I think this (http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/spotlight/wheels-i mage02.html ) is an example of government research going to a consumer product....

I give up. Spinner rims?

Why?

[gone.fishing]

Maybe I'm just getting old and crochety but why do we want to reinvent the wheel? It seems to me that the current technology is more than adequate and has advantages that the tweel will never match. First, I can buy wheels, and tires that meet my needs and offer combinations of style, price, and performance that would take many, many different stock numbers of tweels to even approximate! Second, the modest tire is a proven comfortable technology. Frankly, it would be hard to sell me on something else.

I drive a 4X4 with what I would describe as very modest tires that carry a 60,000 mile rating! They cost less than $150/tire installed and they are running on "alloy wheels" which came from the factory. For less than $600 I can replace them and run them for another 60,000 miles which equates to almost four years of my daily use! That is a negligible cost when you think about it.

My tires perform just fine on dry pavement, dirt roads, snow-covered roads and even on wet roadways. Hell, I don't hardly think of them which when you think about it, is about the best compliment that you can pay tires.

My tire dealer gives me free rotation of the tires and it does them good too because I always get an oil change and safety check when I come in for a rotation. So, to me, in essence my current tires are all but maintence free.

This has been my experience for years and years. Tires have become that good. Why would you want to give up this kind of reliability? I can't think of one good reason.

Designed for throw-a-way car market

[PyrotekNX]

In the not too far future, cars will basically be designed like a cheap printer. When it breaks you will just throw it away and buy a new one.

The cars will be made out of mostly composites and plastics. This means that you will need to hire a specialist to do even the most minor repairs.

Every aspect of the car will be electronically controlled and monitored and you will need special equipment to even begin troubleshooting the numerous electrical problems that will crop up. There will be so many electronic controls that if there is an electrical problem; basically it's non-repairable.

Many car manufacturers are planning on sealing up the engine compartment and the engine itself. New super-lubricants are developed to last the 'life' of the car. (Previously on Slashdot)

The Tweel fits into the same category. The major gripes of it are that it incorporates the tire, rim, and hub all into 1 package. When something like this goes mainstream, forget about custom wheels. Right now there is a big market and all sorts of different tires available for the consumer. If there is a specialized product like the tweel, then it would basically be a monopoly.
The pneumatic tire has been around for 100 years and it has been constantly improved for the entire time. There is very little growing room for the tweel.

Current models are heavier than a standard wheel. This increases the rolling mass which makes it harder to accelerate and stop. They will eventually get old and with all the stress they are likely to fail and collapse. Plastics become brittle with age and with all the stress they would be taking will cause them to fail and cause a nasty accident.

The new marketing strategy of the throw-a-way car will claim it's safer and more fuel efficient because of the weight savings. It will eventually lead to having to recycle your car about every 10 years.

Re:Designed for throw-a-way car market

[Cederic]

MOT = Ministry of Transport in the UK. So an MOT test is one done under their auspices.

ABS not working doesn't prevent operation of normal brakes, which is why I'm still driving around happily. It does however leave a warning light on the dashboard - instant MOT failure.

ABS replacement system is nearer £500, including fitting here in the UK. So nearer $900.

My car (Citroen Xantia) has hydraulic silly suspension. Assume approx $1000-1500 to get it replaced - again, including labour. Again, warning lights on the dashboard (in fact, two, one of which is a full three inches by one inch in size and says STOP in the middle). Obviously if I didn't think the suspension could keep the car stable and steady I wouldn't be driving it; the MOT test doesn't attempt such judgements.

Oil leak looks like the cylinder head gasket. That's going to be $1100-1600 to get sorted. You may be right, that might not cause MOT failure; I'm not sure. It is however something I'd want fixing if I intended to keep the vehicle.

There are other issues with the car too (it'll need new brake pads, maybe disks for the MOT, new tyres on the front, who knows what random other faults) none of which will be cheap.

So yeah, it's blinking expensive to fix if you lack the skill/desire to do it yourself. And yes, those quotes are from an independent mechanic.

As for the MOT being excessive Gov't interference: I like that the Government are forcing people to keep their vehicles in a roadworthy condition - otherwise there'd be idiots driving around in cars that leak oil all over the place, that can't stop safely, that have no grip on their types, whose suspension is liable to collapse at high speed. Not to mention the other things that are checked (working lights, chassis properly welded and not rusted through, wheels attached to car, etc).

~Cederic

The criminals tire!

[HearWa]

"The Tweel offers a number of benefits beyond the obvious attraction of being impervious to nails in the road."

Read: The Tweel offers a number of benefits beyond the obvious attraction of being impervious to gunshots and nail beds.

Looks like the police may have to re-think their tactics if this tire becomes popular. :)

Good reason to Sunset all laws.

[NotQuiteReal]

I think it would be a good practice for all laws to have a Sunset clause in them.

It will clear the books of nonsense like this which serve no purpose, but could be used against someone who doesn't have the correct political affiliation du jour.

If nothing else, it would at least keep legislatures out of trouble, making up new nonsense/bad laws [*cough* DMCA *cough*] for as long as it takes them to keep renewing obviously useful laws.

Of course this would only work if they had to deal with laws one at a time - otherwise it would just evolve into the usual crap - "omnibus law renewal act of 2005" - with all the old junk still in there, plus other nasties buried in the fine print.

Oh well.

Re:Tubeless mountain bike tires

[gotpaint32]

Tubeless tires (sewup or whatnot) that you are talking about are nearly identical to current automobile tires in that there is no innertube to hold the air in and rely on pressure to seal the casing against the rim.

Airless tires have been around for quite a while for bicycles. These tires are mostly filled with urethane. And like the car tirein review, it suffers from pretty miserable rolling resistance issues as well as weight problems to say the least. Development in airless tires have shown quite some improvement over solid rubber tire, however I don't think they will be getting rid of the pneumatic tire anytime soon (~20 years).