Slashdot Mirror
Fansubbers Under Fire
CNet is running a story about new developments in the fansubbing world. The article provides some background, and then discusses
Media Factory's recent letters to fansubbers demanding removal of their shows. Historically the studios have turned a blind eye towards the work of the fansubbers, and the assumption has always been they they secretly approve since the fans work is amazing market research. I've bought countless DVDs based entirely on the work of fansubbers, so I hope that this isn't the beginning of the end.
For everyone else asking that question, they apparently translate foreign movies and make English subtitles.
have they learned nothing from the collapse of the record industry?
From the article (assuming you're like me in wondering what "fansubbing" is):
Trolling is a art,
It's illegal, it's wrong, and it's certainly not good for you. If you're rich because of what's being shared.
>Newsflash: you're not PROMOTING it, you're helping other people STEAL it.
I've got another newsflash for you, copyright infringement != stealing.
---- Take the Space Quiz!
If you want Japanese cartoons before they're released in English, learn Japanese. It's fun and easy if you're not an idiot, and you can do it while you're at work if you have headphones and a cd-rom drive.
Why are you encouraging people to steal their employer's time and resources for a personal, non-work hobby?
Young Girl: Oh no! A man with mirrored sun glasses!
Evil Man: Ha ha ha ha ha!
Young Girl: What are you doing? What's in that suitcase?
Evil Man: Ha ha ha ha ha! I have my Rapectopus in this suitcase!
Young Girl: NOOOOOOOOO!
Evil Man: Ha ha ha ha ha! Now I will release my tentacled monster! He will delve freely into your nether-regions! Ha ha ha ha ha ha!
Whether it's theft of service, or theft of property, it's still theft.
NetInfo connection failed for server 127.0.0.1/local
...for two reasons.
(1) "Anxious times in the cartoon underground." Nothing like the term "cartoon" to once again give people inaccurate impressions of the entire anime world. I expect better from CNET.
(2) I will not buy DVDs blind, nor will I watch anime dubbed. I require at least a sampling before I plunk $ down on discs. Fansubs meet this requirement and have determined every single one of my anime purchases, with the exceptions of those series that came out before fansubbing really existed.
The coolest voice ever.
Well, if companies like Funimation would actually translate the real words instead of making most of them childish, then people might wait until the anime is released to the US because the translations are correct. It is amazing to compare the translations these big corporations do, compared to the real script.
If you want Japanese cartoons before they're released in English, learn Japanese.
No, I just want my japanese cartoons with subtitles. The problem is only 5% of all new cartoons are officially released on DVD in Europe, what can we do for the 95% left?
No doubt some people go too far in their fansubbing, but on the other hand it is very rare indeed that a corporation will be or even can be reasonable (think of how their stockholders would react to a corporation allowing unauthorized copying of their content). That is why the law must provide the balance. If you think that there ought to be a reasonableness to this kind of thing the I recommend that you make your feelings known. Support the Electronic Frontier Foundation.
One thing I know for sure, if we do nothing then eventually we will live in a world where you have to pay every time you read your kid a bedtime story.
The NSA: The only part of the US government that actually listens.
Actually if there is no US distribution partner Fansubbing falls into an interesting grey area. This is becasue in the US derivative work (such as a translation) fall under the original copyright. However the last time I read an explanation of it Japanese copyright law recognizes derivative work separately from the original. Thus if there is a US distributor the more restrictive US laws apply. If there is no US presence presumably the Japanese law is the only consideration.
I can understand both sides of this issue. But assuming that the trend of the distributors cracking down on fansubbers continues, why not have the fansubbers just release their subtitles with no video?
This would allow the die-hard fans to either purchase a legitimate non-English DVD and apply the subtitles themselves (there is lots of software to do this available). This would, in theory, remove the legal burden from the fansubbers since they would no longer be distributing the actual video.
Everyone wins in this case: the anime fans would get to watch the series earlier than they would if they waited for a true English release, the fansubbers continue doing what they do, and the studio/distributor still gets their money from the sale of the DVD.
I know that many anime fans often prefer the fansub to a commercial subtitling because the fansubbers often include translations of on-screen items, not just dialog, so you can figure out if those kanji in the window are significant to the plot of if they are just decoration.
I know I have bought many DVDs because I got the fansubs, and they were good.
I'd be rather apprehencive about buying a $70 set of some show I would have never heard of if it weren't for fansubs.
Besides, once the series' get liscensed, the torrent is removed and the file is taken off the tracker listing.
And most people go buy the DVD.
Like the OP said, fansubbing makes for incredible market research.
Shiny. Let's be bad guys.
I don't get it, why are you all bashing the fansubbers? It's like taping an tv episode for a friend in a forein country and translating it for them. I don't think language should be a barrier to determine what is piracy and what isn't. I mean, anyone can watch tv for free and tape it, hell record it if you like on an HD. So I don't see how it's wrong in any way, unless of course it's licensed in the country you live in, which in this case is most likely the states.
So again, how is this different from doing it with US shows and giving it to a friend in Europe who doesn't want to wait forever to receive it on their network, and while you are at it, translate it for them?
I actually feel a lot more comfortable with people who engage in indiscriminate copyright violation than I do those who specifically single out Japanese copyrights as somehow "not counting" -- Japanese works as not being "official" until they're published in some more important country like the U.S.
forgive my ignorance about fansubbind/anime/etc.. my questions are those of a complete layman (but a layman who works in the entertainment/film industry).
most of these are JP-only cartoons that are dubbed/titled in english (presumably for american or EU audiences on the net).. i fail to see how this really affects the target demographic that the cartoons were released for. I'm not saying it's 100% okay to take someone else's work and give it away for free (modified or not).. as it isn't yours.. but certainly there are shades of gray in every avenue.. and i have to imagine that giving away a retitled work to an audience that would have never had a chance to see it anyway (as it plays on tv in another country), when the original work probably played for free in japan anyway (on tv) seems a little more "gray" than it does "black."
we release commercial products, and certainly i dont want anyone to give them away for free, but if i found out someone had DIVX ripped my latest DVD release and subtitled it in japanese, it wouldnt exactly break my heart. in fact, i'd probably be excited, because if we had any sort of widespread downloading success in japan, those people [who dubbed my videos] would actually just be growing a potential market for me.. whereby someday we could release a native japanese version and sell 10x as many units because we are now that much more of a household name in japan.
not saying you're wrong, just saying it's not as cut and dried as you imagine it to be (imo).
My opinion as a very minor fansubber (and this is held by various large fansubbing sites I'm not going to link from slashdot) is that it is fine to fansub until some American company announces they have aquired the licence to an anime, at which point you stop.
These people appear to be continuing to distribute and subtitle anime after this has happened. In some cases it looks like they are continuing to distribute a fansub after an anime is released.
Personally I think just as bad as downloading an actual pirated copy of an anime. Of course I do do that. But I know it's pirating and don't try to pretend it's anything else.
These companies don't appear to be going after fansubbers who are fansubbing things which haven't had, and probably won't get, an American release.
Combination - fun iPhone puzzling
Most fansubbing groups operate on morality vs. legality.
They will sub, and release, a series until there is a company that picks it up and says "we are going to do this". And then they drop it. At which point, most drop all sources for all episodes both future and already released. This is why studios don't have a problem with most groups. It doesn't dilute the market enough to bother with.
I don't consider this practice immoral. However, given the current state of copyright laws, it is illegal. Doing fansubs, or DLing them is an at-risk practice for all parties involved.
Much like driving 5MPH over the speed limit, or doing a rolling stop at a stop sign. Illegal and immoral do not always coincide.
If you think education is expensive, you should try ignorance -- Derek Bok, president of Harvard
If you're an honest user of these communities' work, react by not buying the licenses of those series where the studios don't let you see fansubs as preview.
If fansubbers' argument that they actually promote purchase of the English-language license is true then the Japanese studios will soon back off when their offerings are less competitive because American licensees' profits are lower.
Media Factory should have been less blunt since as mentioned the "dirty little secret" about digisubs is that companies actively use this as a marketing tool to know what is hot and what is not. They get a lot more feedback through watching fan activity than they ever did in those "reader response cards" and web site mechanisms. Even so, I can't blame Media Factory for wanting to protect their investments. They took the time and money to create shows to market in the Japan and the US and are irked to see their work handed out freely. Although they could have handled in a more friendly fashion the fact is that they asked these groups to stop and it is in their right to do so. They should have handled it with a gentle handle instead of the blunt instrument of psuedo-legal issuing of offical letters.
The fansubing groups need to get off their high horse and honor the request. In the past, "fansub ethics" have always said "honor the request of the creators" reguardless of reason. As much as these guys think they are "promoting the show by sharing" they continue to ignore the reason they are asked to stop which is that there is a seedy element in fandom that just wants cheap shows to watch.
Both sides should just acknowledg each other and walk away from this situation cleanly instead of fuming and dwelling on it. The system works best when it runs silent not when red flags and warning bells go off.
For those who may not be familiar with such translations:
....
In A.D. 2101
War was beginning.
Captain: What happen ?
Mechanic: Somebody set up us the bomb
Operator: We get signal
Captain: What !
Operator: Main screen turn on
Captain: It's You !!
Cats: How are you gentlemen !!
Cats: All your base are belong to us
Cats: You are on the way to destruction
Captain: What you say !!
Cats: You have no chance to survive make your time
Cats: HA HA HA HA
Captain: Take off every 'zig'
Captain: You know what you doing
Captain: Move 'zig'
Captain: For great justice
If you want Japanese cartoons before they're released in English, learn Japanese.
And then what? Watch them as they're broadcast in Japanese on local TV here in the States? Good luck! Even if you live in heavy Japanese settled areas you are unlikely to find much Japanese language programming. Fansubs usually come out as the shows are being broadcast in Japan. Fansubbers then do a lot of hard work to provide their own translations of these shows.
Finally, the entire anime fan community has a strong "buy a licensed version" ethos. If the Japanese companies who make these shows were to release subtitled versions of the shows online for a reasonable fee I suspect that fansubbing would screech to a halt (so I don't get what you're talking about with fansubbers "creating barriers to legitimate online distribution" there is no current legitimate online distribution--if there were, there would be no need for fansubs). I think the typical fansub viewer would prefer the original audio with subtitles over any English remake of the dialog anyway.
I do not have a signature
as soon as that letter went out. Animesuki stopped even stopped showing torrents. I hope Media Factory understands that by cutting off the fansubbers, they'll have an unknown success if they attempt to licence their current series to the US. The fansubbers are one of the best ways to gague how a new series will do here and in the rest of the world.
"Some fight for law. Some fight for justice. What will you fight for? One day, you will see."
You make no sense at all your post is littered with so many errors it is difficult to count them up!! I am one of the people you are calling thieves and I run a small website which is involved in fansubbing Goriko No Porkio which is >herebr br
I wouldnt do this if the original cartoons were available in english because i speak english better than japanese despite being a japanese native. If they made them available i would buy them so they arent supplying a product so how am I stealing this my friend??!!!and as for learning japanese, I already know japanese as does everyperson who fansubs, or they couldn't do it, so it is just irrelevant! back to the drawing board, and apologise.
I do also share music but I buy the albums when I have enough money, so noone loses anyway you are one of these accountants who are so straightlaced they can't see past to the spirit of the laws rather than the actual wording. your crazy interpretation would fail in a court of the law!!
Meine Schwester ist sehr, sehr reizvoll - Nietzsche
Not yet... Give it time. With the US government in the hands of big business, I fully expect to see copyright infringment criminalized within the next few years... They'll probably be using the death penalty in a decade...
Now onto the subject of this debate:
I was a fairly active fansubber in the late 90s, but had to give it up because of time constraints (and because I got tired of poor-quality translations). I never digisubbed (old school SVHS subbing), but I still download stuff today and watch it.
I don't think the fansubbing is all bad, as it does provide a decent method of previewing series without shelling out $15-20 to buy DVDs that you might not like. And there's still far more anime produced in Japan than will ever be released in North America. Some series are too short to be cost-effective, and some just aren't suitable for distributers here.
That said, the trend of distributing full-resolution subs with high quality video and audio encoding is pretty dangerous. If the video was 1/2 res or lower, and audio was MP3 at less than 128kbps, then it wouldn't be of sufficient quality for people to archive/keep when DVDs are released. Sure you could watch it, but you'd definately prefer having the real thing.
I was doing a fair bit of encoding/releasing of JPOP concert material, but I'd make sure the video and audio quality was highly-compressed enough to "encourage" people to buy the original DVDs. I'd never release direct copies of the VOBs, even to my friends online.
In the end, it will be better for the fansubbers to find a way to help work with industry (and most reputable subbers WILL terminate their subbing of series when studios either announce acquisition of a series, or when they actively start distributing it).
And don't kid yourself that this is just a north american thing. There's a booming anime fansubbing industry in other asian countries as well (Korea for instance).
N.
"Nothing strengthens authority so much as silence." - Charles de Gaulle
Myself, I've used fansubbers in the past.
;) ) to read all the subtitles. Which was OK, but now that the series is coming out on DVD in the US with dubbing I don't have to be there every minute. So I'll start buying the whole series as it comes out so she can watch it without me.
My daughter (age 6) had what I call a "Disney princess image" issue. Thanks to the Disney cartoons, she let me know one day that "Princesses don't fight - they just wait for the prince to rescue them".
I didn't like that idea.
So I found other things for her to watch, like "Magic Knight Rayearth" (cute little girls fight with swords against monsters), "Kiki's Delivery Service", "Angelic Layer" (cute little girls with robot dolls that fight each other into submission), and so on.
One of those is a (formerly) fansubbed series called "Stellvia of the Universe", which features a girl attending school in a space station, dealing with the ins and outs of school life. Shima (the main character) is a geek girl, and my daughter and I got a kick out of her (mis) adventures.
The only problem was that Daddy had to be there since she's not a fast enough reader (hey, she's only six
But we've started on other fansub works, like the "Ah! My Goddess!" series now running in Japan. We sit together, I read the subtitles and do the voices for her, and she's started picking up a little Japanese. When the series reaches the US I'll still buy them.
At the same time, I respect the animation studios who might not want their work fansubbed. In those cases, I'd recommend the fansubbers could create external subtitle files (I believe these are idx files that work with VLC or MPlayer), and people could be encouraged to rip their own DVD's to AVI files with special instructions, like "Use Handbrake at X rate blah, blah, blah".
This way, animation studios could still sell DVD's, funsubbers and fans like myself could still get "previews" of a sort. It would be better if the studios would work with the fansubbers and sell the movies online for cheap (say, $3 an episode in a nice XVID format or some such, $1 to the fansubbers and $2 to the production company), since thanks to them I'm going to wind up spending about $150 in DVD's that I would not have otherwise.
Guess we'll wait and see what happens. I'm sure there are people out there who only watch the fansubs and never buy the DVD, but as the article mentions, there may be a few if the "middle area" (the ones people watch on fansubs but have no intention of buying ) animes that lose sales as a result. (Which is why I think the "buy fansubbed for $3" would be a better result for everyone involved.
52 Weeks, 52 Religions with John Hummel
So - I watch a few fansubbed anime tv series. Most notably - every Wednesday night (or so) "Naruto" is fansubbed and torrented. It had aired hours before in Japan, on broadcast television. A group of fansubbers was kind enough to translate the spoken Japanese to a pretty good English equivalent - and encode it up in a convenient movie format.
This content is not, and perhaps will not, ever be available to me otherwise. Yes - I've a general interest in learning Japanese. No - it won't be enough anytime soon (if ever) to be able to enjoy these shows without translations.
When series are licensed by companies, the fansubbers (generally) shut down [or at least have the decency to go 'underground' - where I don't care to follow] - this is pretty much how I know something has been licensed, and I suck it up and deal.
So, legally - morally - etc. What are peoples opinions? Am I a bad evil man?
I don't think so. Dattebayo!
cyn, free software and *nix operating systems enthusiast.
I dumped this from a PDF file Lunar Anime received. Most of those in the fansubbing community know that we respect US licenses, so we're also respecting MFI's request. Please note that Lunar is only doing KgNE from that list.
--
Name of sender:
FUKUI Kensaku
fukui@kottolaw.com
Admitted in Japan and New York
TELEPHONE:(813)5766-8980
FACSIMILE: (813)5466-1107
KOTTO DORI LAW OFFICE
MINAMI AOYAMA POINT 1ST FLR.
18-5, MINAMI AOYAMA 5-CHOME
MINATO-KU, TOKYO 107-0062 JAPAN
December 7, 2004
LUNARANIME.ORG
[removed address]
Re: Copyright Infringement on Web Site
Dear Madame/Sir,
I am a legal counsel of Media Factory, Inc. and writing this letter in that capacity.
Media Factory, Inc. ("MFI") is one of Japanese major animation film producers and owns or jointly owns with other companies copyrights and trademarks regarding various Japanese anime films including the following works ("Works"):
Gankutsuou
Rahxephon
Genshiken
Kimi ga nozomu Eien
Recently, MFI found that certain unauthorized copies of the Works are uploaded to the following web site(s) considered to be managed by you ("your web site") and/or that users are induced on or through your web site to certain web sites containing such unauthorized copies. Such unauthorized copies may be downloaded by users in many countries including Japan from such web sites without charge. We believe that a large number of unauthorized copies have already been flowed out through such web sites.
www.lunaranime.org
Needless to say, unauthorized copying and upload and distribution of such copies are serious copyright infringement. Absolutely no money goes to creators and anime producers of the Works from such illegal distribution.
I hereby request you to cease and terminate said upload and/or inducement immediately and erase all the copies of the Works under your possession. Please confirm the termination and erasure in writing to my contact address set forth as above within ten (10) business days of your receipt of this letter either by mail or facsimile.
In case we cannot confirm said termination and erasure within such period, we will need to consider commencing necessary legal action.
This letter is sent without prejudice to any of MFI's rights or remedies. Sincerely,
FUKUI Kensaku Attorney at law
Not quite, they take TV recordings of animes that aren't available in the destination country, sub them, and release them onto the net, kind of like haveing a japanese freind send you this weeks episode with a resume of what goes on.
As soon as someone in the destination country starts producing (or even state that they intend to start producing) the anime in question, it disapears without trace from the web.
The idea is to get to see footage that will probably never be translated (and in most cases isn't, especially into non english languages, France here), not to kill off the japenese film industry.
I've got loads at home, but I also have a lot of Mangas, DVD's etc that I acquired after they were (finally) released. FYI a 4 year wait isn't uncommun.
Ask 8 slackers a question, get 10 awnsers (a citation, but I can't remember from who)
..in general, fansubs are made because there is no official english version. You can occasionally get separate subtext files too (some come as video + subtext file), but for the most part they come together.
Like elsewhere, the shows are typically aired long before they appear on DVD (even foreign DVD). So the only means of getting the video, unless you happen to be in that country, is to download a copy. Think of it as the usual "I download Stargate because it's not available here" with a translation to boot.
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
Cartoon underground!
No. That doesn't make sense.
Anime are cartoons.
Bugs bunny is also featured in cartoons.
Opera is music
Rap is music
You see where i'm going here?
Most fansub groups cease distribution of a given series as soon as it's licensed for production in the US. The point is that until it's licensed there is *no* english translation. Hard to argue that you're costing a company sales when they arent providing that product.
If you can't see the value in jet powered ants you should turn in your nerd card. - Dunbal (464142)
As someone who appreciates anime, I can say from first hand experience that it's probably not the Fansubbers fault that the fan base is growing but sales are flat - especially in the mid-quality series.
After finding the fansub community, I can say that it's a GREAT resource for several things: checking out the latest and greatest coming out of Japan, finding obscure series that will probably *NEVER* see the light of day in the U.S.. An added bonus is that when a series comes out in the U.S that I've already seen, I can either purchase them on DVD if I think they're worth my hard-earned dollar, or pass if I think it's garbage. Additionally I ALWAYS make it a point to recommend lesser-known but well-done series to my other anime fan friends.
I think that the flat sales that the companies are concerned with is a sign that their consumer base is getting smarter with their purchases. I know I hate buying something on DVD that looks really cool to find out that it's a single 30 minute episode - especially after shelling out $20-$30. As the medium becomes more commonplace, I expect that this trend will continue.
Under U.S. Law, the purpose of Copyright is to promote the arts and sciences by giving a means by which creators of intellectual property can be paid for their work.
Therefore, while fansubbing might be technically illegal, if we wish to determine the ethics of it we need to look at the question of whether it promotes the art or stifles it, and whether it enhances revenue or diminishes it.
From the article, it would appear that fansubbing has both promoted the art and enhanced revenue for the creators - but the market may now be reaching a point where in some cases fansubbing may (possibly) diminish revenue. It still seems to be contributing to the promotion of the arts, however.
Therefore, when considering the ethics of the situtation (as opposed to mere legality), there is only one thing to consider: does fansubbing diminish the revenues of the creators or their assignees? The fact that most fansubbers remove their material when a commercial conflict comes up shows good faith on their part, but that may be insufficient. In any case, the development of the U.S. market for anime may have changed the equation, so that what was formerly ethical (though not technically legal) may no longer be ethical.
Even that, of course, is in doubt. There is a good deal of reason to believe that the free sharing of material has helped commercial distributors far more than it has hurt them.
Baldur
Anime films/series are cartoons in the same sense that 8 mile was a kind of musical.
Just because it was a different style of music didn't make it a different thing, and just because an anime is (sometimes) animated with more care or in a different style doesn't mean it isn't a cartoon.
Phil
I guess today is a passable day to die.
I was at an Anime showing conference where they had a showing of a newly unauthorized translated show.
At the end of the showing the presented introduced an executive from the company that made/released the show. The presenter indicated he was there so they could negotiate the rights to translate the show we just saw into English.
After a couple of years I saw the English version of that very same show appear on the shelves of the local video store. Since I was so impressed with the first English version I saw a few years before I snapped it up. Sadly the translation was perverted by the executives' involvement. The original translation I saw done by the fans was a much better interpretation of the dialogue.
I think that some fans are so fanatical they do a way better job then a company employed translator. For example look at some assembly manual that have been translated from another language into English. It is clear to tell that English is not the first language and the translation is not done with the passion a true fan can accomplish.
My Sig indicates the end of the comment I posted.
So you say that somehow the companies are losing profits from fans releasing a series in a country where no legal/official release will ever occur?
Linux is not Windows
Personally, I think the greatest benefit of these fan translations is that it keeps the companies relatively honest. Fans already know the dialogue can be competently translated, so there's less excuse for poor dictionary-switch translatings or covering up harder dialogue with protected laughter that has nothing to do with the movement of character mouths. Heck, a few companies have made use of fan translations when doing their subtitling.
That said, with the company's request, they should immediately shut down translations of that company's work. *wry grin* It will likely mean lower sales due to decreased publicity, but that's that company's perogative. We must respect that.
^_^ So glad you understand now.
This sig has absolutely no significance and serves only to take up screen space and waste the time of the reader.
"Companies worry that the easy prerelease availability of fansub versions means that the otaku class has already seen their products, and no longer need to buy anything but the must-haves."
Perhaps they companies don't understand that this is how it's SUPPOSED to work. I'm not going to shell out $250+ for a series and find out that I don't like it. Fansubbing gives me the option to see it as a whole and buy that which I really like. And just for the record, I have a WALL of anime that looks like Suncoast.
There's also the issue of market saturation VS. otaku and the "casual buyer".
If someone told me that I'd have to shell out $500 to find out if I'd like Babylon5 or not, I'd tell them to shove it!
"Not the Earth!!! That's where I keep all my stuff!!!" - The Tick
It bears mentioning that when you put these video files up on the net, they are just as accessible to people in the domestic Japanese market as anywhere else. I would tend to imagine that is of some concern, especially in the case of those late-night niche series that make all their money off video and merchandise sales, rather than advertising, like Kimi ga Nozomu Eien. They would need to approach foreign sites distributing video files just as much as they would approach Japanese ones.
Most fansubers that I know of are distributed in the US. (That is not to say all, I just don't know of many) The fansubing setup is based around the fact that until the series are liscensed in the US, there is no distributor and no one has a copyright on it (look at Tolkien and Paperback copies of LotR as an example).
As for Japanese works as not being "official" until they're published in some more important country like the U.S. It's just that there is no copyright in those contries on those works until they are Licensed. Not I say License and Not Publish. Once a series has been Licensed in the US the ethical ones stop translating and releasing the series.
Fly me to the moon Let me sing among those stars Let me see what spring is like On jupiter and mars
No matter how much additional style or substance is added to it, anime still qualifies as an animated cartoon. Apparently, CNET is aware that they are speaking to a general audience that is not as refined in their... well, cartoon-watching.
Why of course! They are "losing" money everytime when you merely think about their sacred, divine "intellectual property" "product". If you were a good citizen of the corporate republic, you would have immediately run and "bought" the "product" because by thinking about it, you are "experiencing" in part the "joy" of the "product" and thus "depriving" its "creator" of his justly deserved "revenue".
P.S. Don't forget to buy individual copies for each time you plan to "experience" it, think of the poor starving "content producers"! Think of the children!
I wish you lot would just calm down a bit, it's not like you're whiter than white either, and I can't see you're problem if you're not even interested in anime.
And stop thinking that world=USA, there are lots of us in other parts of the world, and, as I stated earlier, most of the time we _never_ _ever_ get a legal release (Case in point, 9/10 of the fansub's I've watched haven't been released under any form where I live, let alone translated), so it's not like the shareholders are loosing money on this.
In short: Fansubs disapear as soon as a legal distrbution method appears, and in most cases the legal version doesn't appear at all, so there's nto much to complaine about.
David
P.S: Before you start moaning that more legal releases would appear but for fansubbing, remember that their probably wouldn't be anything like the number of manga/anime available today had it not been for the free publicity that the fansubbers provided.
Ask 8 slackers a question, get 10 awnsers (a citation, but I can't remember from who)
Hard to argue that you're costing a company sales when they arent providing that product.
Nope. That's actually an easy argument: The company WILL someday soon sell its DVDs in the USA, so distributing fansubs earlier will cut into their future sales.
Back in the good-ole days of VHS fansubbing in the 1980s, that was an unlikely event. But today, if an anime has any substantial appeal to Americans, it'll certainly get an international DVD release inside of two years. (Indeed, anime companies are making the USA market a critical part of their business plans. Some anime, like Big-O, has been renewed for new episodes solely on the strength of USA viewership)
For some kinds of show, that isn't true: there are genres whose international appeal is to tiny to support a translated release, and there are also high-profit kids' shows (like Pokemon*) where the audience won't be interested in reading subtitles (especially on TV).
But for many things that get fansubbed today, neither of those excuses works. Prehaps the strongest example is "Ghost In The Shell", an expensive scifi action series that's still being broadcast in Japan, and which already has DVD and televised releases in the USA. Even back in pre-production 3 years ago, this was a tremendously famous series, and it was obvious there would be a major world-wide market. Yet fansubbers went ahead, set their VCRs, and FTPed raws and subs around the world.
* In the case of childrens' shows, there is a further motivation for the producers to condone fansubbing: the shows themselves are usually "toyetic", existing primarily as 22-minute advertisements for toys and branded merchanise. A vendor can hardly argue against free ad time...
This has been going on for 20 years, and in fact was largely ignored by the anime companies until recently because there was an unspoken agreement over stopping subbing when a license was available.
This was fine for those in the US, but led to a lot of disgruntled European fans who were waiting years beyond the extensive wait for a US release for their own. So, the dispute ended up being about subs continuing after domestic (US) release-- companies like ADV argue that sub distribution should stop after a US release, and European sub groups disagree.
Then add in the pirate groups that were doing their own things outright.
It's been a grey-area issue for a very long time, and is hindered additionally by the fact that the anime release companies in the US pay attention to sub groups to find out what people *want*.
There are a few groups doing fansubs of the Initial D Fourth Stage episodes. They vary in quality, but generally, they are excellent. Sometimes, some of the more technical car terms don't make it through, but generally, they do. In short, I prefer the fansubs to the official DVD's.. which is a pretty sad state of affairs.
I wonder if this has anything to do with the market being a little more "flooded" than usual. In that case it would compare well to the MPAA...
Fansubbers release subtitled versions of anime online. Fans download. More downloads/activity = more popularity. Anime companies use popularity to determine US sales.
Now, anime has caught on more in the USA. Anime factories want to release more anime, faster, and with less regard to quality. What previously sold well due to predetermined popularity will now sell by volume. But those that don't want to watch crap can download the fansubs and determine that it is, in fact, crap and not worth buying.
It's like theatre movies and shelved music. The good (or at least, popular) stuff is selling more than ever, but people are better prepared against the crud. Industry wants to sell both, so they fight against the evils of "piracy"
I think he meant he bought official commercial releases after having seen the fansubs.
> I've bought countless DVDs based entirely on the work of fansubbers, WHAT THE FUCK!! Don't you know *anything* about this stuff? The fansub groups explicity do not want that to happen, because that is exactly what causes the companies to need to crack down, idiots like you buying illegal copies.
To me, what he said was that he bought DVDs based on what he saw from the fansubers. As in, watch fansub, go buy official release on DVD. Not, watch fansub, buy DVD that was made using fansub.
Fly me to the moon Let me sing among those stars Let me see what spring is like On jupiter and mars
Super Milk Chan
>If you steal my bicycle
Then I've taken a physical product from you and stopped you from using it, I haven't copied it. The only way I can "steal" the profit from you is to go, gun in hand, to your office and steal your money, take the physical bank notes away from you and into my pocket. This isn't about copyright infringement being detrimental or not, it's about it being theft, and by the defitinion of theft it isn't.
The guy who sells CDs with a bootleg of a film is benefitting from copyright infringement. The other guy who breaks into a warehouse and steals a whole bunch of CDs or DVDs to then sell them is benefiting from theft. They're both illegal, but they're not the same. Pretty fucking simple isn't it.
---- Take the Space Quiz!
Many of you are making faulty assumptions comparing the Japanese and American markets:
#1 Did you know the Japanese productions do not "Break Even" until DVD sales/rentals...THAT is why they are priced so high. TV does not break even on a show...it helps market it for sales/rental so that it will break even later.
1a. This means if you fansub, you are contributing AGAINST a production breaking even.
1b. If you torrent this is even worse as the last tracker I kept stats on over 40% of the traffic was non-US (~30%+ asian)...AKA the very rental/sales market that pays for productions!
#2 Fansub translations are better than commercial.
LOL! I've met the translators they get their material from!...At best they are above average AMATUER translators...many write scripts that are so bad they have to go through the projects english speakers to make sense.
Take this in comparison to professional level translators that run the finish product past the Japanese firm in many cases and have access to the ORIGINAL CREATOR. If there are differences, guess what, alot of the times its on purpose as someone WANTED IT THAT WAY from the Japan firm!
Example: series: FLCL fansub name: FuriKuri. REAL NAME: FoolyCooly Thanks to the R to L slur in Japanese this was told to SynchPoint by the CREATOR, the CREATOR told the fansubbers on more than one instance (at a con) THEY WERE WRONG. (ex: Name: Alice = Arisu or occasionaly Arise)
Never forget the #1 rule in Anime:
NOBODY screws up anime more than the Japanese!
I personaly purchased or at least started to purchase nearly every anime title that I enjoyed and felt it is worth it. Being that I felt that the creators deserived my hard earned cash in some format. Theres some titles that are in "licenceing hell" that I want to end up buying the leagl region 2 dvds. To say thanks to the producer of said title.
If I didn't have fansubbs I would probaly be forced to use the sad excuse for a rental system that exists for some genres. It has gotten better over the years for the rental market. Overall I see the legal problems with fansubs and see the great usefullness of them for the american distribters. Alot of time fansubs are used to gauge how well the fans are liking a title or genre. Also if said title is worth charging tons for the licence. Right now the sleeper genres are for the most part the genres that fansubers avoid for the most part which is the sports anime and the likes. This is pure opionion on my part.
I am your lord jdarr bow bow down and pled to me and give me your anime and computer parts.
One Piece.
There are people that sell fansubs on ebay or where ever else. These are not, in the vast majority of cases, the fansubbers themselves. Many sub groups put things like "Not for sale, rent, or auction. Please stop distribution when licensed." up in the opening or the little middle sequence. People who sell fansubs are widely regarded as the scum of the earth.
The argument for letting these groups operate is twofold. First, they do so with content not licensed in the US, so no US licensee is harmed. I don't know what cross-country copyright agreements have to say, but stateside nobody has rights to publish it when fansubbers do their work. Second, they selflessly promote anime. There've been a number of fansubs I've seen with better quality control in the subs than the later official releases. They don't make money. They let people who won't just randomly buy a DVD with no knowledge of the content get a feel for what they want to buy. Dropping $20 for three episodes is easier when you know it's something you'll watch a few times rather than watch once and quit out of disgust.
Anime DVDs make up about half my DVD collection, which is by no means small. The total sum of anime DVDs I've bought without seeing at least one episode prior: 0. Anecdotal evidence? Sure, but I know a rather large group of people, in person, who do exactly the same.
There are arguments against allowing it as well, but if any media company thinks anime would be where it is in the US today without letting the fans run rampant, well, they're crazy. The people watching fansubs are the same people introducing anime to friends and family with a religious zeal. Given the article even speaks of them as "cartoons" like they're for kids or something should give a better picture of the initial resistance that's now being overcome.
If not now, when?
Manga are not subtitled. A translated manga is either a "scanslation" (fan-made, from a blend of 'scan' and 'translation' -- manga are scanned and then translated) or "dual language" (release by Japanese companies for the readership to study English).
There is also a great deal of parody in the fansub (and fandub) world, which is explicitly not copyright infringement. So be careful not to mix the two.
Some of the best fansub work I have seen is hysterically funny.
OTOH, there are a number of anime films/series I have seen which were fansubbed (or fandubbed) accurately, which I never would have understood without them. (Dirty pair, tank police, bubblegum crisis - all loooong before I ever saw the 'official' subs/dubs.)
What's even more interesting is that a source (of unknown reliability) at a television studio told me that when Sailor Moon was licensed for broadcast in the U.S., the "translator" didn't speak a word of Japanese. Therefore the entire first season was "translated" simply by watching the visuals and trying to come up with a storyline to match.
We kindly ask you to repost your comment without using that many "ironic" parentheses.
Cordially,
"Committee" for "Proper" "Sentence" "Construction"
Man is a slave because freedom is difficult, whereas slavery is easy.
The most telling thing to me is that fansubbers sub series because they enjoy them, not because they want to try to earn money off them. It seems like most commercial releases just do elaborate dubs and stick on a few trailers for other series. But as the article mentions, they don't put the effort into it that fansubbers do. There's no painstakingly yet beautifully done karaoke, no pretty and easy-to-read color-changing fonts, no translations for all the onscreen signs or Japanse jokes. And most commercial releases have a fair number of grammatical errors in their subtitles, which personally annoys me. I understand that things like these probably don't both most of their audience, which is why they don't do them, but it would be nice to see a US studio put as much effort into their releases as fansubbers do. If you really love a series, it shows.
Dear Japanese Anime companies:
I've been watching anime since about 10 years ago. Before the internet era, all we could do was renting some limited anime at very specialized stores. It's very scarse. We would meet and gather money to rent (or even buy) one.
However, with the internet, we've been able to know the most recent japanese releases. Of shows that would take 3 or even more years to be officially released in the US.
Please allow me to ask this question: What use is making a perfectly legal show if nobody outside your country is going to see it? Where will you get the reviews, if people won't understand a thing of what's being said? Who will buy your series? But most important, did you plan to earn money thru exportation of the series you're producing?
Maybe you don't want to accept it, but in a certain sense, you owe us. Both the fans and the fansubbers. We're otakus, too. We respect you and appreciate your wonderful work. But please, don't take away from us this thing that we love so much... if you do, the direct consequence is that we'll have to stop watching anime (not because we don't want it, but because we won't be able to see it at all) and stay with the mainstream imports that are no good.
Anime is not widely distributed in other countries apart from the US - like in Latin America. You can see there only the most popular shows like Pokèmon, or Yu Gi Oh. These shows are garbage to the true Otakus. We want the good shows, like Evangelion, Saber Marionette, Cowboy Bebop, Detective Academy... most of us wouldn't have even heard of them if it wasn't for the fansubs.
There is another thing to consider. The "popular" shows that go on open TV usually have more than 100 episodes, and are transmitted daily. But the small shows that have an average of 25 episodes, have very little chance of appearing in open TV. What to say of OVA's? 8, 6, even 3 chapters?
In Mexico the common idea of Anime is a lot of guys fighting with superpowers. That's their idea because that's what they've seen of Anime. Here there are many people with very limited resources. We barely have money for cable TV, much less for satellite TV where the specialized anime channels are.
Please. Don't kill the worldwide Anime community.
Sincerely,
your fans.
Nobody is saying you're wrong in a technical sense. What the poster was getting at is the word "cartoon" carries a very specific tone and set of boundaries in the US (which is where I'm from, at any rate). Here, the word "cartoon" means, something animated for the kids - high-frame-rate, low quality, simple platitudes, etc. Something you grow out of.
Anime, on the other hand, encompasses a much larger set of genres and audiences. Anime is designed for everyone from kids (and God, do we know that, thank you Pokemon) to teens and adults. Anime even has sub-genres - definite sci-fi series, comedy series, westerns, horror, etc. What was the last time you saw a horror "cartoon"?
Most of all, though, anime has much more interesting subject matter - stuff that makes you think. The characters are not one-dimensional, and are not all designed for gags as they are in 99% of "cartoons". The storylines are well written and continuous, and characters develop and change. Depending on the series, the nature of family, friendship, religion, or even reality itself is challenged. And when you're tired of all of that, yes, there's plenty of comedy and "low humor" as well.
This is why anime fans get upset when you call it a "cartoon". Yes, it is a cartoon. But calling it such implies it is much, much narrower and vapid than it deserves.
I don't know what kind of crack I was on, but I suspect it was decaf.
As soon as someone in the destination country starts producing (or even state that they intend to start producing) the anime in question, it disapears without trace from the web.
Not quite. The fansubbing groups will often remove the series from their site, but the episodes certainly don't disapear. Many of them are still distributed after licencing by sites like http://www.boxtorrents.com/.
Haven't these companies noticed the massive amount of bootlegs/imports coming in from Hong Kong? I can pay $120 - $200 for a series from the legitimate publisher, or $30 for an import/bootleg that is nearly the same quality, but on fewer discs. It's not like sites that sell this stuff are hard to locate either, led alone the amounts you find on eBay.
I think piracy is cutting into the market a heck of a lot more than fansubs. I'm amazed that so many of the sites continue to operate, seemingly within the US as well.
I'm in the UK and a well known Gundam fanboy (my name is based on Gundam and FMA). Bandai have totally given upon Gundam in Europe and now you can get very little but import manga from Amazon and DVDs which wont play on all DVD players (region crap). So I have to fansub the series, but I do go out of my way to buy all the Gundam models and mangas I want, or even don't want in some cases. Bandai and Sunrise earn more money through Gunpla (Gundam models) then they do through DVD sales. So clearly I'm putting my money back into the series through "alternative" ways. Many people work the same way as I do.
I like muppets.
They would never get official permission. Official permission would limit the copyright holder's ability to stop "real piracy", as the distinction would be negligible.
If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
It appears that the controversy here is over copyright infringement when the "fansubbing group" releases an entire video with their translated subtitles attached to them. While I agree this is copyright infringement, I would also like to point out that, according to the Berne Convention Article 8, translating copyrighted works is the exclusive right of the copyright holder.
I would love to hear of any legal precedent that says that this doesn't apply in the case of translating Japanese audio to English text.
URL is http://www.lolikon.org/guide.html
I'd also like to point out that fansubs are likely to spread the Japanese culture a lot more than any dubbed-and-slashed US versions released. Granted, this may not be an amazing thing for American companies looking for quick profits on a new frontier, but I believe Japan as a nation will benefit in the end.
Under the Berne convention, everything copyrightable is copyrighted by default. You don't have to include a (c) either. The copyright is equally valid in all signing countries, which is ~100 nations, and all of the important ones. This post is copyrighted in the US and Japan. So is yours. It's as simple as that.
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
> fan subbing is pointless now, most groups fan
> sub the most popular shows, which are often
> licensed internationally before they air (or
> was funded by an American anime company)
Bear in mind, though, that many of these shows only get popular after being fansubbed.
Also, popular shows may not be licensed because of other issues. For example, Naruto. Madly popular, and if it was any other show it'd have been licensed already.. but who seriously is going to want to license a show with 100+ episodes where a single plot point can take up 10 of them? It's based on the soap opera model and who the heck wants to put them on DVD?
Given that the standard US DVD is 4 episodes, nobody'd pay for one of them. (And if you say "they would if it wasn't for fansubs", no they wouldn't: at best they'd buy one, feel ripped off after watching Naruto standing on a bridge talking to Zabuza for an entire DVD, and never buy another one.)
At the very core, what the fansubbers are doing amounts to charitable work for a for-profit organization. At some point that company is going to step in and assert their ownership over their works, lest they fall into the public domain.
Look at the logical cocnclusion of fansubbing:
- Japanese company creates anime feature
- Fans subtitle it and redistribute it on the internet
- A large fanbase for the company's works grows outside of Japan
- Company responds to consumer demand by releasing officially dubbed versions
- Company has to shut down the fansubbers because of the direct competition
Honestly, success for the fansubbers (raising awareness of the feature) means that the company will have to pursue legal action against the fansubbers.
So is this 'fansubbing' thing only for Anime? Are there fansubbings of regular movies? Because if there aren't, it would be a great idea. Hmmm... there's a lot of great Russian movies that I would love my American friends to see. *lightbulb*
> Nope. That's actually an easy argument: The
> company WILL someday soon sell its DVDs in the
> USA, so distributing fansubs earlier will cut
> into their future sales.
Yup. That's why NO film company has ever released a DVD of a film that's already been out on VHS. It wouldn't sell, would it?
That's why LucasArts only ever released one single, perfect VHS version of Star Wars. After all, who'd pay for the same thing again?
That's why in the UK, where one of the most common cable channels is UKTV Gold which shows nothing but repeats of classic Britcomedies, the BBC don't sell DVDs or VHSs of Red Dwarf or Fawlty Towers since anyone who wants them will already have taped them, right? (Note: Both series have been released, twice on each format..)
... that quite a few fansub groups no longer have a website or an IRC channel. They simply sub the files and distribute them to a few trusted individuals.
Once they're distributed, they're virtually impossible to eliminate because they're sent over bittorrent, usenet, p2p networks, and online storage services like Streamload. There are still tons of copies of Ranma 1/2 encoded in old Realplayer files floating around.
I would imagine that in the long run, the companies' crackdown on these groups is going to make the groups change their stances from simply subbing until US licensing to subbing until completion regardless of the licensing. The companies might be right in their defenses of their abilities to distribute their products, but Americans don't have the ability to watch a show to completion and then decide they want to purchase the DVD like the Japanese do (OVAs not withstanding).
If you want Japanese cartoons before they're released in English, learn Japanese.
It's not a matter of "before". Many shows and movies are never translated. There is no legal way to aquire them, and "learn Japanese" isn't an answer and you know it.
Every fansubber I've ever dealt with has stopped providing tapes as soon as the title is going to become available (e.g. when Disney signed with Studio Gibli for all the Miyazaki films like Princess Mononoke all the fansubs for Miyazaki films vanished). Yet there is still no way for me to get a legal subtitled version of Nausicaa, so I'm keeping my fansub. If Disney releases it, I'll buy it.
Realize that fansubbing was going on in ernest at a time before the general anime craze in the U.S. This was back before you could find a whole aisle of anime at Fry's and Best Buy. This was when a video store's "japanimation" section consisted of Akira and a couple random episodes of Sailor Moon.
Copying isn't stealing. When the owner of the material isn't even trying to sell it to you, then there isn't even the hypothetical loss of revenue argument. To then call that STEALING is just being a SYCOPHANT.
The enemies of Democracy are
"Not stealing" does not imply "not illegal". Running a red light is a crime, but it's not theft. Likewise, infringement of copyright under U.S. federal law is a crime, but it's not theft[1]. I liken copyright infringement more to trespass than to anything else.
[1] I single out federal law because it governs copyright disputes in the vast majority of cases, but a few states do still have something similar to copyright infringement as part of their theft statutes.
Flagrant, organized, and large scale willful copyrignt infringement
Just a historical note...
In many coutries, if a local translation wasn't made in a reasonable time frame (reasonable varying from country to country) then anyone was allowed to make a translation. As soon as the foreign copyright holder decided to make a local translation, the unauthorized translator had to stop making new copies of their translated version.
The Berne convention banned this exception in Article 8:
"Authors of literary and artistic works protected by this Convention shall enjoy the exclusive right of making and of authorizing the translation of their works throughout the term of protection of their rights in the original works."
rage, rage against the dying of the light
ANBU is an anime fansubbing group I hold in high regard for the quality of their work. This is what they have to say about the legality of fansubs...
What are the legalities behind fansubbing?
This section pertains to information regarding licensed works and their legality. ANBU is a fan subtitling group, not endorsed or affiliated to any company or author. As a result, ANBU is subject to various laws and restrictions imposed by several International and U.S. Codes. Furthermore, ANBU respects the wishes and license of American companies. This is why ANBU has a zero-tolerance policy when it comes to licensed materials. All such materials must cease distribution as soon as the license has been made official and public. Fansubs in themselves are illegal, testing our luck when a work has been licensed in our country is asking for trouble.
Many emails come to us saying that, "I am not in the United States, so send us the fansubs." This is not possible. As several members of our fansub group reside in the United States, as well as our web server - we are subject to the laws of the country we reside in. Furthermore, as our website is hosted in the United States, it can be seen as facilitating and encouraging such distribution, and we would be held fully responsible.
If you enjoy our fansubs, and would like to continue to see us produce more, you would not ask us to participate in any endeavor that would endanger any of our staff and cause any litigation to occur as a result of our free service to the community.
In a more detailed note, we will outline several of the laws regarding this topic for your perusal.
17 USC Title 17 (U.S. Copyright Code)
17.1.106 (paraphrased): The owner of a copyright has the exclusive right to do and authorize the following:
1) Reproduce the work in copies
2) Prepare derivative works
"...the fair use of a copyrighted work, (...) for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright."
This means that only the owner/creator has the right to reproduce (copy or distribute) any of their works. It also includes 'derivative' works which means, anything made from the original is also covered under this. Essentially this means that Fansubs, which are a derivative of the original work, cannot be distributed without the exclusive consent of the copyright owner. Derivative works can also include screenshots, movie clips, and music videos using the works.
Many people try to state that fansubbing is included under 'fair use', however it is very specific as to what constitutes 'fair use' and translations are not.
Berne Convention Article 2 - Literary and Artistic Works Covered
2.1 The expression "literary and artistic works" shall include every production in the literary, scientific and artistic domain, whatever may be the mode or form of its expression, such as books, pamphlets and other writings; lectures, addresses, sermons and other works of the same nature; dramatic or dramatico-musical works; choreographic works and entertainments in dumb show; musical compositions with or without words; cinematographic works to which are assimilated works expressed by a process analogous to cinematography; works of drawing, painting, architecture, sculpture, engraving and lithography; photographic works to which are assimilated works expressed by a process analogous to photography; works of applied art; illustrations, maps, plans, sketches and three-dimensional works relative to geography, topography, architecture or science.
2.6 The works mentioned in this article shall enjoy protection in all countries of the Union. This protection shall operate for the benefit of the author and his successors in title.
This essentially states that the work of an author in any nation who signed the convention, is protected in every nation under the convention. See below for an ent
Direct away from face when opening.
Flagrant, organized, and large scale willful copyrignt infringement.
Free offshore (from Japan to 'gai'-land) marketing and product modification, coupled with a total and complete lack of business ability to profit from these free services given to them.
Actually, not al anime is a cartoon. From the webster online dictionary, a cartoon is a "a drawing intended as satire, caricature, or humor". Not all anime is intended to be that way. Some of them are drawn realistically. Would you consider the paintings of Da Vinci cartoons? Of course not. The same applies to lots of anime shows and movies. And since anime is a medium rather than a genre, it would be better to call it animation.
Just my two cents.
You mean, other than correctly pointing out that this is an example of ignoring the copyright of the author, grabbing the author's work unnotified, and sending it to the whole world. Yes, it's the whole world, because once it's on the net, it's always available on the net.
In the USA, copyright law has 4 rules that determine whether an infringement has taken place. The most important one is the question of monetary damages. Now, since fansubbers only work on works that are unlicensed in a particular country and ceasae distribution once a work is licensed, I can't see how you would argue for damages.
"We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
Ah but there are two problems with so over simplifying this:
1. A far greater number of anime series are being released.
If 5% of anime is the expected big hit variety and 20 series are released in a year, and a fan can buy maybe 4 series a year, there will be 1 smash hit, which he will buy, with the other 3 purchases spread over maybe 10 of the mediocre series.
Anime becomes more popular, and 200 series get released. There are now 10 big series, the fan can't even buy all of these, let alone the mediocre ones.
2. American companies are getting better at picking the really good series.
With the market as competetive as it is, picking a good series is a lot more important, in the old days any anime was better than no anime. Not only are there the Japanese viewing figures to take into account but fansubs are important too. Regardless of your opinion if overall they do more good or bad, they do create a fanbase for the series before anyone has even liscenced it, an active English fanbase shows that it's a series that will do well. An anecdote from Newtype USA with some American company director was that thanks to fansubs Naruto has become the most expensive anime to liscence because everyone knows it will be a massive hit.
So because of this, not only are there more releases, which means more hit series, but also a higher percentage of hit series.
The reason the mediocre anime sells badly is because no one has the money to even consider them. Most of the purchases are likely to be people who have come to love the series because of the fansubs.
By your mistaken logic, the evening news is a situational comedy because it's on television. Those that agree are either making a statement about the news or do not understand what they are saying. If you have something against Japanese animation, speak your mind. Using the wrong word just makes you sound foolish.
-Hope
I realized I'm joining the discussion a whole 3 hours late which means no one will probably read this comment, but what the hell...
First, a little history:
I used to fansub shows starting about five years ago, but my roots in online fansubbing go back even farther, to 1997. I was one of the three groups (although I guess I was really only one person) who pioneered online distribution of fansubs in the first place, back when RealPlayer G2 had just come out and Cable modems and DSL were just first available. I used to take VHS fansub tapes, encode them to RM, and make them available on my website. If you run across old Sailor Moon RM files, or Macross 7, or later on any of the Fumei Anime encodes, that was me.
Then DivX and broadband changed everything, and the whole online scene exploded. Now, you had people in Japan ripping raws from TV in high quality (beginning with Noir and Vandread, they were the real breakout series for Digital Fansubbing, or digisubbing) and groups translating and reencoding these raws, you no longer had to wait for an old-school tape fansubber to translate it and distro tapes. It was revolutionary.
But about that time I started to see where things were headed, and I got out of fansubbing more than two years ago because I came to realize that the modern fansubbing scene is nothing more than the next warez scene. Everything turned into speed, speed, speed, and became less about quality and the love of anime and more about online prick-waving contests about which group was cooler and got their releases out faster. I grew out of that crap when I was 16, thanks.
Today's market no longer needs fansubbing. Fansubbing was important back when shows might never get brought over to the US, or releases might not occur for another 4 years (like ADV and Excel Saga, for instance), but today the domestic anime companies get their product out in reasonable timeframes (it's no 1 week wait time, but that's for obvious reasons), produce good product (if they don't they hear about it forever, ask ADV about Eva Vol 1 sometime), and do a bang-up job of trying to get the whole phenomenon out to new people.
Anything good that gets aired on Japanese TV will be licensed in the US, period. Everything that's being produced in Japan now is licensed before it airs, so this crap about US companies looking to fansubbers for direction is bunk. All fansubbing is these days is whole-sale piracy on the one hand and another silly adolescent online rat race on the other. When you have "release" groups, distro groups (read torrent sites), and all of these things have three letter abbreviations, you know it's just the new warez scene.
That's why I got out. The last show I enjoyed subbing was Kokoro Toshokan, because I knew it would never get brought here (indeed, it still hasn't after three years). That was what fansubbing was about. Today's scene is a terrible perversion of the ideals of fansubbers of old.
"I want to get more into theory, because everything works in theory." -John Cash
I've been in the fansub community for years now. One thing I've learned is that it is impossible to determine what stuff will get licensed (The US doesn't get anywhere close to 100% of the stuff released in Japan) in the States. For instance, Super Milk Chan is showing on TV. I would have never expected that. On the other side of the coin, no American company has (thus far) made a peep about Naruto, and it is up to episode 119 and is basically a shoe-in for the Amerian audience.
Anime companies of course have a policy of not releasing any information on series they are interested in acquiring, so Fansubbers have effectively NO information to go on. So what is a Fansub group to do? Just sub what you find interesting and stop if the series gets picked up.
I read the internet for the articles.
The problem is this chief difference in culture:
In Japan, making something animated does not automatically mean you were trying to make a kid's show, or if it is adult, that it has to be a comedy like The Simpsons or Family Guy. In the USa, the public kinda does have that assumption.
The importers chief mistake is in assuming that animation and seriousness can never mix. Of course, the annoying thing is that the importers of this material are themselves responsible for continuing to perpetuate this mistaken assumption on the part of the US audience.
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
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What's even more interesting is that a source (of unknown reliability) at a television studio told me that when Sailor Moon was licensed for broadcast in the U.S., the "translator" didn't speak a word of Japanese. Therefore the entire first season was "translated" simply by watching the visuals and trying to come up with a storyline to match.
I'm pretty sure that's not the actual case, as some elements of the story that aren't totally obvious just from visuals managed to make it into the dub. However, Sailor Moon (dubbed by DiC) had the dubious distinction of being considered the worst dubbing butchery of an anime series for many years. For the first season alone they took the two parter finale episodes and trimmed them down into one. They cut out all references to the sacrifices of the Sailor Senshi (Scouts in the dub) as well, making it appear no one died. (Everyone died in the original version.) The result was a butchery like you wouldn't believe, a two part finale that was incredibly touching and moving was cheap and hammy. Fans were royally outraged.Sailor Moon lost the title for worst butchered dub when WB and Nelvana put out Card Captors (based off of Card Captor Sakura). Character personalities were changed, episode order was rearranged to try to make the male character appear to be the main character (he's not, the original title gives it away, Sakura always was the main character) and the new OP theme, well, it almost makes the ears bleed. It took dub butchery to new lows and was (rightfully) lambasted for the implicit sexism of trying to make the main character no longer be female. The dub did not do well. To be fair, the changes were apparently all demanded by WB. Nelvana gave in to fan pressure and put out an uncut, subtitle-only (no dub) version on DVD as well. It was actually well done, so that appeased most fans and it sold (and still sells) well.
Incidentally, Sailor Moon never got an uncut release until many years later. DiC had nothing to do with it though, ADV got the rights and put it out. They also got the rights to the 3rd & 4th seasons and had them dubbed as well. They were aired on Cartoon Network. The 5th and final season still has not been licensed and released in the US and likely never will be.
Fansubbers typically choose anime that is released in Japan, but has not been liscened for distribution in other countries yet.
.VIV frmat (vivo). We will not further speak it's name here. Other formats have come and gone, most everything is done in divx or ogg/xvid format now. Quality is very high. I think this may have something to do with the crackdown.
Fansubbing has been around for quite a while, and traditionally it was done using VHS equipment. My experience with the fansubbing community has vastly changed in the last few years due to changing video compression capabilities. VHS fansubbing usually was associated with poor quality, where you would be getting 2nd, 3rd, and even lower generation tapes. The first fansubbed anime I ever got on the internet was in the
The legality was questionable to begin with. You have a huge industry in japan, with a negligable market in the US. They used to overlook it because they do not sell in the US. Things have changed, and now more and more anime is making it's way over here. So now you have a situation where it isn't illegal to copy the anime and sub it for the US, it will be if the anime ever gets liscensed for distro in the US. It becomes more and more of a problem the more mainstream anime gets.
As always, wikipedia beats me to it. More or less what I have said above.
-- Having a Creationist Museum is like having an Atheist place of worship
Not necessarily, I can tell you of about 10 series I'm waiting for a US release of so I can buy them and own a high quality copy as well as the DVD extras. I've already seen them fansubbed, but I'm still planning to buy. In fact it's unlikely I would have bought these if I hadn't seen them first. Anime DVDs are still too expensive for just impulse buys ($30 a DVD is still pretty common for new releases.)
Big O's a unique example, it was much more popular in the US than in Japan. The popularity of it here in the US finally led to more of it being produced, but it was produced mainly for the US market. The small group of fans of the show in Japan got an unexpected bonus thanks to the US fans in that case. These type of things are also quite rare. Big O's the only one I know of where more episodes were made because of popularity in the US. ADV has helped pay for the production of some series, but they did that without fan input.
Ghost in the Shell's another quirky one, the original movie was much more popular outside of Japan than in it. (Not just US, but worldwide.) You're either confused or misunderstanding the TV series here as well. There are two TV series based on Ghost in the Shell. The first, called Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex, originally aired starting in 2002 and has long since completed it's 26 episode run. A second TV series called Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex 2nd Gig started airing in January of 2004, it appears to be finishing up it's 26 episode run this month. As of now, only three volumes of the original TV series have been released in the US. The second series has had no release. Of the two movies, both have been released in the US, the first by Manga Entertainment several years ago, and the second by Dreamworks in 2004 (I believe it was 2004, not sure on the exact date of that.)
Knowing it would eventually be released is a silly condemnation of those who fansubbed it. Even though it's insanely popular here, there was no guarantee it would indeed be released. It very well could have been the case that the Japanese owner would want more for the rights to it than any company would feel it was worth. This has happened in the past with other series in fact (For example, the Ah! Megami-sama/Oh My Goddess! movie rights came with the stipulation that the mini-goddess TV series, which is not very well liked, had to go with it and be released. Fans had to wait several years before a company felt it was worth it to take the license). Beyond that, we can see from this one series, one that is in fact quite popular in the US, that it took 2 years for the TV series to start being released in the US. This is a big reason why fansubs take place as well. It also does help sales, not that that makes it legal, but it is true.
This kind of argument hurts fans of these series. First you assume only children would be interested in Pokemon. Secondly
Ten years ago, it would have never been thought of to see anime plentiful in stores like HMV (a music and video store chain in the Commonwealth), the video department of Best Buy, or to see entire companies acquiring rights to anime on a monthly basis and releasing professional copies every single month. Of course now, it is reality and many of us spend oodles of money buying anime on DVD and enjoying it on a daily basis.
What has also changed is fansubbing. Years ago, you would have had to go on the Internet to see who was distributing what, mail them a VHS tape, and then wait a few weeks for a copy of whatever series you wanted. It was a slow process and I remember a few times having to do that in order to get copies of certain titles.
These days, it's as simple as going to a website, finding a torrent, and then download the series. With hard drives becoming larger and cheaper, broadband Internet access being provided to millions of people around the world, and with write-able DVDs providing gigabytes of space on a single disc, it's really easy to download anime today without having to worry about space or time.
The process has changed too. Today, anime fansubbers have people working in Japan ripping digital television feeds, encoding them for use on computer, have them sent to Japan, and then the fansubbers go to work at it, having it done in a period of a few days.
Beforehand, most would have had to wait for the laserdisc to come available, and then it would be translated by hand, timed, then the script would be checked before the master copy was made on to a SVHS or VHS tape.
The huge difference here besides speed is the fact that ten years ago, the fansubbers themselves knew each other by face and lived rather close-by in most cases, whereas today most of the fansubbers live on six different points of the planet instead of six kilometres from each other.
However, fansubbers today lack class.
If you paid attention to what I said two paragraphs ago, fansubbers ten years ago would have had to wait for a laserdisc to come available in Japan before being able to do their work. That would have meant having to pay for a copy, which would mean that at the very least the fansubbers were paying for a copy of the series.
The huge difference here is that fansubbers do not pay for a copy of the anime they subtitle. In fact, unlike their former analogue counterparts, all their work is done in digital means, and there is very little loss to quality of the video when they release their works.
Ever looked at a fansub VHS copy of your favourite series and then seen it on DVD or a master VHS copy? Do you notice that the quality is VASTLY different? Do you notice that the translation is generally better?
Compare a fansub copy of Mahoromatic to the same episode on DVD. Notice how the image quality is similar? Notice how the sound is somewhat similar?
Fansubbers today think they're doing the right thing by promoting a series and of course, at the same time throw their dicks around when they're the first to release a certain series. They plaster their names all over the series during the openings as if they're involved with the anime series itself, when in fact they're not.
Their idea of having their releases with the best quality what so ever does not make themselves look all that great when you take a sober look at things. The incentive years ago was that you'd get a copy of the series on VHS from a fansub group, then once a copy was licensed, you'd record over your fansub copy and then buy the legitimate product.
I have met many friends who do not do that. They collect anime on nothing but recordable CDs and DVDs. And it cannot just be my friends, as I know numerous of people out there do not buy the DVDs once they're licensed and still continue to watch the series via their fan subbed copies.
To make matters worse, fansubbers today are all kids. Just like kids, they squabble over stupid little things and get into a
You're right. If my employer didn't pay me it wouldn't be stealing - it would be breach of contract.
Copyright infringement isn't stealing for the same reason that murder isn't rape.
When a Japanese animation company notices one or more of their works showing up on tapes or dvds from and unknown source, and the show has all sorts of glitzy animated karaoke titles, font-and-color matched text, still frames of a 'subber group logo, etc. they don't say, "oh, a fansub," they say "what _company_ did this?!" That is when Gonzo / Bandai / Geneon / Bones / Gainax / Aniplex et al start the legal ball rolling because when the result looks commercial, and the authors of the bootleg work are going to be treated as if they were an infringing company. The fact it is an informal group of fans isn't going to lessen their ire: it is about the look of the finished product that concerns them, and whether the authors "have more heart/love" in their effort than an official release is irrelevant. Thus things like the Media Factory C&D.
Fansubbing was _almost_ dead around 1998 as domestic (USA) releases were ramping up to the point that the time lag between Japanese TV broadcast and US store-shelf purchase of the same show continued to shrink. Then came desktop video encoding, and the "digisub" was (re)born. Better capture hardware, better encoder schemes, better titling software and most of all--cheap, widespread broadband. Now a show is digitized as it is shown on TVT or WOWOW, etc and sent to a subber group in a matter of perhaps an hour. Subber groups, like Las Vegas hotels, vie constantly for one-upmanship thus you get the incredibly lavish animated title fonts, twirly song lyric titles, fade-in/outs etc. the results of which mean a fansub torrent of a given show will exist from 1 to 5 days after the original Japanese broadcast. Unfortunately the translation tends to be rather weak, but if the colloquialisms created by the groups are "hip" enough, people will accept them and think they're spot-on.
Then came bittorrent, and you have achieved the current position of digisubs. The problem the companies and their licensees now observe is loss of potential sales. Furthermore, when a show is popular enough, fansubber "morality" goes out the window in favor of the screaming masses who "want their anime now dammit!" Take the show Full Metal Alchemist, the most popular show of 2004. It was licensed for US distribution about halfway through the 51-episode run, and while 1 or 2 sub groups ceased subbing it, a dozen more jumped into place to take up the slack. Yes, some of these groups are outside the US, but the point illustrated is popularity vs. morality. It is going to happen again, too, with a show called "Bleach." ONE episode of FMA typically got *30,000* leechers, from ONE TORRENT! It is numbers like these that concern the animation companies and their licensees, and that is why the legal engine is going to start rolling--hard--on folks again.
We have, until now, always beleived that the companies knew this and were SUPPORTIVE of our efforts at getting the american populace intrested in Anime. Often major distributors use the popularity of a fansub to figure out what to take the trouble to make official translations. We are the market and the advertisers. We did more even than Pokemon to get Americans intrested in Anime. We want good translation to be available on the shelves at blockbuster and many of us regularly send email to such chains making such requests. We always thought we were not just tolerated, but even appriciated. (The "leaks" of some scripts furthered this beleif.) We tried our best not to interfere with the ligitimate distribution channels.
If you see a fansub Anime, it WILL include screens, possibly at the beginning and end, possibly cutting the Anime like commercials on broadcast telivision, imploring all users of the file NOT to distribute after liscensing, often this is followed up with a request for the viewer to BUY the DVD once it is out. Most of us do. I will continue to buy liscensed Anime, and I will continue to download fansubs, but only from companies that HAVN'T sent their cease and disist letters. I won't fansub your stuff if you don't want me to, but I also won't buy it.
The announcement BTW to many of us felt like being hit in the groin with a 2x4. We were shocked and truly hurt. Perhaps we were delusional about the companies views of us, but we felt betrayed. I hope that this isn't the beginning of the end but hope is a thin, and insubstantual thing. I'm not sure it is enough to hold up the community. I am glad you are here with me Sam, here at the end of all things
Little Brother, watching the watchers