Canadian Government Weary of Patriot Act

IllogicalStudent writes "An article on canoe discusses how the Canadian government is moving to counter worries surrounding Canadian citizens' privacy being compromised by the United States' Patriot act. Apparently the FBI currently has the right, through Patriot, to search documents which may contain Canadian information sent to US firms carrying out work under contract. Thankfully, privacy still means something up here."

Comments

Just goes to show

[alexwcovington]

When you get paranoid, your friends suffer more than your enemies...

Re:Just goes to show

[SenseiLeNoir]

Something us brits are learning the hard way. I wish the British government had the same sort of backbone as the Canadian goverment.

The Canadians have a lot to loose if any tension occurs between them and the US, far more than the British, yet they have been able to stand their ground well, whilst still maintaining the level of co-operation with the US, unlike our "sell out" government of Teflon Tony, who seems to totally ignore the British public.

And aside point, initially the British public didnt exactly say NO to the invasion of IRAQ, just that we were concerned about HOW it was going to be done. When our voices were not being heard, thats when many people decided to do towards the anti war message, in order to poke our government into action.

Does this mean

[Timesprout]

We can expect to see a massive farting extravaganza as Terence and Philip sort out the US?

Weary or wary?

[illtron]

So are they weary or wary? A little copy editing goes a long way, you know.

Re:Weary or wary?

[MarkRose]

They're just too weary to be wary about nary a nitpick.

Land crossing question

[DrXym]

Do Canadians get fingerprinted and photographed at the border like all us other foreign criminals?

I wonder how many terrorists this amazingly intrusive and expensive system has actually caught.

Re:Land crossing question

[MarkRose]

What are you talking aboot? We don't talk like that, eh! So take off, ya hosehead!

Re:Land crossing question

[DarkBlack]

No one will ever know. All that has to be reported is the number of times they have requested and the number of times it was granted.

At least before they had to have some sort of probable cause, now all they need is one word - terrorism.

It's interesting because I got a big long winded letter from one of my senators explaining why he voted to erode my rights, and that he didn't think that the act eroded constitutional rights. I guess he missed that part about probable cause in amendment IV of the Bill of Rights. Go figure.

For your information, this was Senator John Warner from Virginia.

Re:Land crossing question

[brettlbecker]

Don't think for a minute that the PATRIOT act is about actually catching criminals. Of course, in order to catch a criminal, an actual law has to be broken first, and this act sorta just steps to the side of that little point...

But that's not the issue. The PATRIOT act is simply a control-through-fear technique. Keep the masses in fear of 1) an outside power - the terrorists 2) the structure designed to remove 1) - the law ... mix together and you have a cycle of fear-relief-fear-relief ad infinitum. Oh, and it helps to have such a compliant media, and it REALLY helps to have such a heavily sedated public. And as a bonus, the government can basically collect any information it wants about any member of the public. Just for future... consideration. It really is Orwell-worthy... if only he could see it actually come to fruition.

Oh, and about the numbers of criminals that have been caught under this law? I dunno, but the number of convictions as far as terrorism goes is exactly ZERO. Nice job there, Ashcroft!

B

Re:Land crossing question

[bug]

Let's get some perspective on this. Other countries are not exactly the bastion of privacy that they are made out to be on Slashdot. It is common in Europe that you need to present identification when checking into a hotel. For foreigners, they usually make a copy of your passport. This information is then kept for later use or forwarded to the police so that they can then (you guessed it) track you.

Re:Land crossing question

[sgant]

Exactly. It's a world of fear....not just a nation.

We were better off when we had the Soviets and Communism to fear. Back then, the media was pretty much under control and not the fear-spewing idiots they are now. But after the fall of the Soviet Union, there was nothing really to fear for a short while....the politicians didn't have anyone to rally against, the media didn't have fear-laden headlines to sell commercials and papers.

It's a fiasco now...with terrorists behind every tree, global warming melting the entire Earth, liberal media vs. conservative media....dogs & cats living together: MASS HYSTERIA!

Re:Land crossing question

[Skater]

Ashcroft? Remember, both Democrats and Republicans voted for this act.

Re:Land crossing question

[TGK]

Nice with the Ghostbusters ref, though I doubt many people got it.

You're 100% right, for a number of reasons. First off, our security was threatened a great deal more by the Soviet Union than by international terrorism.

There are reports (which I've cited on /. before, but I'm too lazy to find right now, go find them yourself if you care) that the Soviets had gone so far as to install a small low yeild warhead in the basement of their embasy in DC so as to pull off a decpitation strike if things ever got really bad. I belive this was during the Nixon Administration.

The World Trade Center sucked, and so does the so called war on terror, but the casualties of the cold war are staggering by comparison.

Vietnam: 58,000 Dead
Korea: 33,000 Dead
WOMD Pointed At Us: 55,000

Compare to the War on Terror where casualties have been measued in the thousands and there remain no WMD pointed at us.

The Bush appologists will tell you this is because of the superior quality of the US military in this war, and the continued dominance of the US as a the last remaining superpower.

They might be right on that second point. Just as the school bully generaly fairs better picking on a 1st grader than a HS Senior, so also will the US fair better picking on Iraq or Afghanistan than China or Russia.

We're blowing this out of proportion. Terrorism is a threat, yes, but a threat to be compared to other fiarly innocuous problems throughout American History. Terrorism is like the 21st century's version of the 19th Century's Mexican War.

Weapons of Mass destruction are still terrifying, but as long as a superweapon can be smuggled into our cities in the bloodstream of a legaly documented traveler... what can we possibly do? It's time calm down, get our wits about us, and face the world.

Unfortunately, we've just elected a witless redneck to another four years of marioneting by Dick Cheney, Dark Lord of the Sith.

Is there any room up in Canukistan?

Re:Land crossing question

[strider44]

Compare to the War on Terror where casualties have been measued in the thousands

That is misleading and/or incorrect. The correct statement is: Compare to the War on Terror where American casualties have been measued in the thousands

Privacy laws extend internationally

[Anonymous Coward]

US companies with data on citizens of European Union countries have to follow the European Privacy laws. So, the situation is more complex than just the US extending its law internationally, othe countries do so as well.

Re:Privacy laws extend internationally

[nbert]

There is a flaw in this argument, because those European privacy laws have different intentions than the Patriot Act (I guess I don't really have to explain the differences).

And as for your second point:
If I'm for example buying a book at amazon.de (having created an account there) they have to obey German/EU privacy laws, because they are doing business in Germany. Since I can log into amazon.com with my account I don't really believe that they are following the official safe harbor policy, but in principle they have to respect the laws of the countries they do business in, which has nothing to do with the EU extending laws beyond their borders.

Allow me to clarfiy

[alexwcovington]

The Patriot Act was the result of Paranoia... Of people willing to endorse anything if it was security-related. I would still like to count Canada as a US friend, even if half the politicians down here call it "Canuckistan"...

Re:Allow me to clarfiy

[Grey Ninja]

As a Canadian, I just want to assure you that we do indeed refer to ourselves as being Canuckistani. It's absolutely hilarious to be talking to an American about Canuckistan. I remember one time I was playing America's Army, and I was going on about how we shared a border with Russia, and were the country furthest north. The guy I was talking to never clued in.

On that note, I just want to mention that Canadians are rarely seriously offended by Americans. We just think they are good for humor value if nothing else. :)

Re:Allow me to clarfiy

[anonicon]

You guys can call it whatever you want, but I'm just relieved that there's a big country to the north to escape to if the residents of Dumfuckistan pull more stupid stunts.

Re:Allow me to clarfiy

[Dashing Leech]

"Let's make fun of them so we can feel all smug and righteous."

No, we make fun of them as a means of highlighting your ignorance in hopes you will do something about it. That most Americans don't know jack about the rest of the world is news. We don't make fun to feel smug and righteous. We make fun because we're concerned about your massive ignorance of worldly events and how it drives your politics. If you checked out the "Talking to Americans" website from the grandparent post, you'll see that most of it was talking to American politicians and some "influential" celebrities. These are the people that influence what Americans believe and are supposed to know about the world around them, and they clearly don't.

But yes, most Americans are good, hardworking, nice people. We aren't offened by them, though we perhaps respect them less since the last election. (OK, in 2000 you didn't know G. W. was a fuckup, but this time you should have.) We are, however, often offended by American politicians and media. Their deception, bias, illogical reasoning, and clear pandering towards good sound bites and entertainment over truth is quite obvious and offensive. But when you don't have real politicians and media who actually research and analyze things first, there's nothing to compare to and realize how stupid it looks.

Re:Allow me to clarfiy

[ShieldWolf]

"...and I was going on about how we shared a border with Russia, and were the country furthest north."

As a Canadian I need to clarify a couple of points:

1) Canada DOES NOT share a border with Russia, we only have a border with the USA.

2) Canada IS NOT the northern most country. That would be Greenland (Denmark).

Re:Allow me to clarfiy

[gobbo]

Sorry, but if Americans deem to tell the rest of the world what to do (including Canadians!), put military bases in over 100 countries, hijink any trade initiative they near, and play vindictive patriotism games (oh, your country doesn't support our war of agression? ok, burn your flags and deprecate your products) --well, then, they'll just have to put up with people poking fun at them. Frequently.

Power is like that, you open yourself up to ridicule as a matter of fair play. You can't have your Twinkie and eat it too.

Why are a disproportionate number of top hollywood comedians canadian? It might have to do with national outlook.

Re:Allow me to clarfiy

[gobbo]

We want to make the world a better place for the oppressed.

Ka-wow, did you really just write that? Many of us in other liberal democracies look at the American system of health care, poverty abatement, and prisons, and shudder. We see oppressive systems that are polluted with inequities and indignities, more so than our own considerable problems. We see the way the trade missions turn countries from an emphasis on self-reliance into exporters of commodity goods based on unequal trade--without mitigating corruption in any way. We see the constant global war, using a thin veil of cries of freedom to pave the way for further inequitable commercial opportunity.

Tell me more about how your concern for the oppressed has affected, for example, the status of women in Iraq? The status of children in Angola? Dissidents in your client countries? Saipan? A century of policy towards Haiti, Cuba, Puerto Rico? Guatemala? How about pollution from your over 700 international military bases? The list goes on ad infinitum. And AC's, do your research before a kneejerk rebuttal on this one, please.

We see you edging ever closer to a cynical theocracy. You have enough WMD to wipe anyone out, and a national sense of manifest destiny linked with a popular myth of imminent armageddon.

Re:Allow me to clarfiy

[Ced_Ex]

We want to make the world a better place for the oppressed. We did this for Afghantistan and Iraq already, they both held full free elections for the first time in their countries history. What has your country done to make the world better? Exactly nothing.

You can't even see past your own government and media deception to even begin to understand what your country has done on your behalf.

You haven't made it better for the "opressed". Their lives are crappier now since their country is in full civil war. They never asked for your help. And as far as I can remember, the original reason for going to Iraq was for WMDs! NOT to free the opressed. Funny how the mission statement changes when the objectives couldn't be completed.

Let's just list out the "nothing" that Canada has done. Anytime we deploy our military (as sad as it is), we put them in world hot spots for PEACE KEEPING. We go to places to STOP wars, not to wage them.

Oh, if you want to talk about war, let's talk about WWI, and WWII. Just so you know, Canada was actively participating in the two wars SEVERAL YEARS before the US got involved. So don't ever say we have contributed nothing.

I am by no means trying to bash the US, as they are truly a leading nation. However, I am just sad that with all the resources they have to make the world a better place, they choose not to. I believe just recently that Bill Clinton mentioned that if the US government (notice I say government, as opposed to citizen) just allocated a small fraction of GWB's $80 Billion request for defense funds for Iraq to something like medicines and food, the world would be a better place.

I ask you, can you not think of a better way to spend $80B to make the world a better place than to spend it on weapons used to destroy. Spend it building homes, giving food, clothing. That is how you make a better world.

PS: I don't post anonymously because I truly believe in what I say.

Re:Allow me to clarfiy

[Qzukk]

Tedious twaddle says the coward.

Pray tell, in what country does the U.S. have a military base where the local government seeks the base removed.

Every time an American soldier rapes someone in Japan theres a pretty big push to kick the Americans out. Panama was a pretty risky occupation there for a while when the canal ownership transfer didn't look like it was going too smoothly.

Pray tell, oh enlightened one, about trade barriers.

Very well, lets talk about Iraq, and the oil embargo, and how the US ignores barriers whenever it feels like it. Or how America (and other countries, America isn't alone in this) backs such barriers only when it benefits corporations, not consumers or laborers.

God, please do do tell me just what those 8 million Iraqi's were doing last weekend

Wait, were we there for the election last week? Only months ago it seemed we were there to depose Saddam, and months before that to protect the United States from WMDs, and months before that to protect the United States from Al Quaeda terrorists, all the time using battle maps drawn up before 9/11 when the plan was to go to war for oil.

I'm glad Bush finally got his story in synch with reality. Those votes only cost us about $12 billion each... At that expense you'd think that we could spare the $200 to fly Iraqis in America to one of the 8 voting places set aside for them. With the names of the campaigners not revealed until days before the election, and very few of those even campainging, confusion was rampant, and voters had no choice but to vote randomly. This is the democracy we died for? At least women's rights will be restored to pre-american-interference levels. Who knows, maybe in a decade or two being publically Christian will be non-fatal again.

Oh, and BTW, you people know very little about the Patriot Act

And what do YOU know about it, other than what you've read in the law itself and what little your government admitted to you?

But hey, cowards like you just like to spout off nonsense and run, thinking "gee I showed that guy" when all you really showed is that you can spout off a lot of stuff.

Re:Allow me to clarfiy

[MightyMartian]

> Big government socialist types, like Adolph
> Hitler, use persecution and targeted humour to
> manage the masses. Most Canadians are too stupid
> to realize this. CBC for example, oh they
> criticise government only to a point to get some
> perception they are worth the billions of
> government dollars but the reporting is biased.

Wow, compare a socialist government to Nazis, always a good way to indicate that you don't know what the f*ck you're talking about.

The CBC raked the Liberals over the coals just as much as anyone else. Hell, Rex Murphy's in hot water because he sided with religious concerns over gay marriage.

CBC's heads and shoulders above Global.

Re:Allow me to clarfiy

[Ced_Ex]

Because this would be very difficult to measure. The thing is, people like you don't consider deaths due to the UN embargoes, totalitarian regimes, or anything like that, as being countable. Only deaths as the result of US military action. Kind of shows your whole agenda.

There may be death as an indirect result UN Embargoes, but unlike US military action, there wasn't an intent to do so. US Military actually went in and bombed the crap out of them. Don't tell me "collateral damage" is indirect. It's a BOMB for Christ's sake, it's meant to blow up things.

Operation Iraqi Freedom

Free the people of Iraq from the start? The initial reason for war in Iraq was for terrorists and WMDs. Have you forgotten that already? What about the debacle regarding false reports of the CIA? Forget that too? News reports when the Iraqi war started all concentrated on looking for WMDs that Saddam had as well as the terrorists he was harbouring. Funny how you fail to mention that. This freedom for Iraqi people came to be only after your Gov realized it was grasping at straws to find a reason to be over there.

Oh, don't forget that the Mujahideen were also freedom fighters that you abandoned in Afganistan. Funny how they are known as terrorists now.

Where, exactly, have you prevented wars? The Sudan? Mogadishu? Bosnia? Your model of doing nothing is certainly no more effective than our model of doing something. And it has been repeatedly shown that peacekeeping forces actually do more harm than good.

Cyprus, Bosnia, Croatia, Haiti, just to name a few, granted we didn't stop an entire war, but stopping battles where we can does help. Certainly trying to stop a war is much better than actively starting one with a sovereign nation. I would say it is more effective since we aren't actively shooting and bombing the country that we are trying to help. Please, show us where peacekeeping is more harmful than good? Never realized trying to stop a war was worse than participating in one.

Another humorous point - yes you were there, but don't you find it interesting that our presence turned the tide? We were the deciding factor in that war.

Oh yes, all hail the mighty Americans who came in half way through the war. Any country can be the deciding factor when they join the war when it's almost done. Hell, I can beat Mike Tyson in a boxing match after he's fought 24 consecutive rounds against Lewis and Klitchko.

Good idea, let's build a home in insurgent controlled territory. See how long that will last. Frickin' hippie.

No, according to you, your solution would be to drop bombs on them and kill them all. Great solution there. I'm sure this is the exact reason why the world thinks so highly of US Foreign policy.

I love to hear Canadians talk about how you would make the world better.

Well, I think the world is a better place without wars. If you don't think so, why don't you live in a war torn region and tell me how great it is. We're not contributing to a war torn society, unlike your government. My country is not imposing it's lifestyle on you or anyone else, but your country is actively going to other countries and doing that very thing.

Forcing a lifestyle on others isn't the magic answer either.

Re:Allow me to clarfiy

[Qzukk]

This is news to me.

Start of Panama Canal Transfer problems. End of the transfer problems when the US finally fulfills its treaty obligation 22 years late. And since this is "news" to highschool history failures like you, the end of the US military occupation of Panama that went along with that transfer.

The people of Okinawa have protested several times since the end of the war, the largest such protest after a 12 year old girl was raped. The Japanese government usually ignores it, mostly because of American threats of economic ruin in the event that the bases have to "suddenly go away".

I'm so sorry that I didn't spend the time to look up more cites for you to ignore last time, and I know you ignored them because you ignored my next cite:

IN-TER-NA-TION-AL community tried sanctions to affect change. I would think you would approve?

Hell yeah, I approved. Shame that both Clinton and Bush apparently didn't, since their administrations knew about the violations and did nothing about it. You'd know that if you had read the link I gave you. Or hell, if you had read your newspaper instead of using it to wipe your ass.

The Iraqi that voted did not come out of polling places raging against America or the election process. (For now we'll ignore the fact that two major political parties boycotted the election because of their belief that the US could not run a fair election)

Just wait until the US slaps them with the bill. How pissed off will they be then when America siphons off what little money they have over a $100billion bill? Until then, as one of the people who paid for this big experiment at the cost of $12(at least, since the initial 72% turnout estimate has already slipped to 60%... nobody really knows how many people showed up, and of those how many were turned away due to typical American election oopsies like lack of ballots)billion per vote, I have the right to be upset about how my money was spent.

for the first time is exercising his freedom

wrong, wrong, wrong. Scroll down to the bottom, and note how this weekend was the first election in 50 years. Thats right, folks, Iraq used to have elections! They used to be a democracy!

is an aspiration with real meaning to a people who have suffered from decades of dictatorship.

Who needs dictatorship when we can suffer from your ignorance (and that of others like you). Tell you what, save up a few pennies every day and go buy yourself a nice set of Encyclopedias. Get the ones with the big colorful pictures, they're easier to read.

Re:s/Weary/Wary/

[gowen]

I crossed from the US to Canada once, (I'm a Brit) and the toughest question the Canadian authorities (represented by a young female border guard) asked me was "Do you know you have the loveliest accent?"

Canadians rule.

Next up for Canada...

[mikeb39]

Telling Bush he can shove his missile defense system up his idea hole. We really would rather work towards a more peaceful world through understanding and compromise, not a peace built on fear and threats.

I for one welcome...

[jarich]

I for one welcome our new Slashdot, politicized story spinning overlords!

Okay, so it's not new, but it seems to be more obvious recently...

Fortunately...

[animus9]

Fortunately George W. Still can't find Canada on the map (sssh! let's keep it that way), so any information acquired that violates our privacy will probably be useless to them. They might as well get a SETI client and mine through some of that data. I can see it right now:

"Your excellence, it appears that an evil race of aliens are planning to attack us -- also, they have a whole bunch of oil. Good thing we already have PATRIOT ACT VIII drafted up."

Re:s/Weary/Wary/

[SenseiLeNoir]

Seconded...

I am also a brit, and the one thing i really love about Canada is the way it merged the Best of Britain, America and Europe into a country.

It is certainly intresting how Canada is more socialist than even Britain sometimes, and its a good thing, when you also see how its run, and the kind nature of the people.

I am not dissing Americans either, American citizens are really nice too. But I see the attitudes of the people not nessasarily reflected in aspects of the administrative procedures, which really can ruin a hoilday by a tourist.

The terrorists did NOT come through Canada

[seifried]

That is a false media meme that has become truth simply because it has been repeated so often.

To quote:

This is not the first time that Canada has been falsely accused of harboring terrorists and allowing its space to be used as a launching pad for a potential attack on the United States. Immediately after the September 11 attacks, media reports flashed around the world stating that several (and in some reports, all) of the 19 hijackers entered the United States from the northern border. We now know that all of the terrorists entered the United States directly from overseas with US-issued documents. None of the terrorists came from Canada.

http://www.canadianembassy.org/ambassador/030116 -e n.asp?format=print

Privacy Details

[Anonymous Coward]

If anyone is interested, the Canadian Privacy Commissioner's website can be found here: http://www.privcom.gc.ca/index_e.asp The privacy laws here generally fall under PIPEDA - Personal Information Protection and Electronic Documents Act. Passed just a few years ago, it has made it very easy for the individual to take the upper hand in privacy disputes with corporations as the act greatly favours the little guy.

Re:Privacy Details

[Fr05t]

The company I work for follows PIPEDA to the letter when dealing with customer and potential customer information and data. This is extended to American and European customers as a matter of respect. Most of PIPEDA is simple common sense respect for others privacy. It makes me feel all warm and fuzzy :)

Border guards

[jimhill]

One time I zipped up into Canada on a day trip. Going in, the Canadian border guards wanted to know if I had any firearms or ammunition. Coming back, the US border guards wanted to know if I had any fruits or vegetables. That says a lot (hey, two words!) about our two countries.

Re:You have no right to visit here

[statistically dead]

The problem with the PATRIOT act is that the US is using it to force other countries to supply data on individuals that don't even travel to the US - The EU has been pressured into granting Paseenger Flight Data be given to the US for flights in EU airspace (that don't even go to the US). The US government is demanding biometric passports from other countries because US officials are too lazy or don't want to spend money on granting visas. The fact is that the US is forcing the effects of the PATRIOT act indiscriminately onto non-US citizens that don't even visit the US

Re:s/Weary/Wary/

[gowen]

If you think that a functioning welfare state providing a safety net for the poor constitutes state socialism, and think that having to register gun ownership is an infringement of your basic human rights ... I recommend that you move to the USA.

Don't Do Business With Them

[MoThugz]

Apparently the FBI currently has the right, through Patriot, to search documents which may contain Canadian information sent to US firms carrying out work under contract.

Then just don't do business with those firms.

Let your money do the talking... apparently politicians listen more to corporations than individuals (especially the average /. geek).

Re:A really stupid overly idealist view you have.

[Anonymous Coward]

Just as corporal punishment discouraged kids from acting out in school so does the threat and implemenation of destruction curtail the activities of the lunatic groups that seek to impose their views on others.

Just like the death penalty has eliminated murders from all those Texas cities... oh, wait, no it hasn't.

PS : You'll notice the Canadians were more than happy to send troops to Afghanistan, from where the terrorists actually were operating.

PPS : Threadjack!

RTFA, besides this was going on before Patriot Act

[will_die]

The main thing they are complaining about is that an American company could be ordered by a US court to supply info that they owned and was stored in Canada and that a US company that was storing infomation for a Canadian company could also be ordered by a court to provide infomation on a person.
This is no different then was going on before the patriot act, so no big change, it just looks better to the mass idiots if include the words US Patriot act in the headlines.

Re:A really stupid overly idealist view you have.

[geminidomino]

A peaceful world will only come about when those who prey on civilians because of religious, ethnic, or other differences are eradicated.

So basically, when the poorly named Homo Sapiens is extinct.

Everyone

[Turn-X Alphonse]

I think this applies to everyone and we should all be worried. With the US Mentality of "your with us or against us!" you HAVE to support them. even if you want them all to fuck off and die, you can't say it out loud and sleep soundly at night. after starting two wars (I'm from the UK, so yes we helped...) and having a guy with more self confidence then sense in charge I'd rather keep my anti-yank opinions away from him in the political forum.

Maybe someone should teach Bush that there isn't only "us" and "them". Because mentality like that slowly chips away at "us" untill everyone is "them" and you're in a padded room going "THE VOICES TELL ME THEY ARE GOING TO BOMB US! THEY WILL BOMB US AND WE MUST GET THEM FIRST! IF WE DONT WE'LL ALL DIE! QUICK NUKE THEM ALL!"

Re:You have no right to visit here

[Fallus Shempus]

Then close the border, or do you want the tourist dollar? And yes my prsonal rights do (or should) exceed those of a 'country', not a citizen of that coutry, but the country itself. This is xenophobia, pure and simple, it's the assumption that a foreign national is a more of a threat than a citizen, go tell Timothy McVey.

Re:s/Weary/Wary/

[TheRaven64]

Do you really think that owning a firearm protects you against a police state? Honestly? The amount and type of firepower available to the US military are so far in excess of those available to the civilian population[1] that you stand no chance at all if the military were to be used to quell a popular uprising. Not to mention the fact that it is far more likely that a modern totalitarian state would rely far more heavily on the control of information than the control of firepower (dead people don't make good serfs, after all).

[1] Unless I'm mistaken and you can own IR / RADAR hybrid missiles, and your own SDI system and nuclear deterrent.

Tell me about it.

[nounderscores]

Here's the thing,
I didn't vote for you.
It was cool cause I didn't want to.
Yeah, yeah. Since u been gone.
Inaugurated, sat in the oval room.
Wasn't long before the dot-com boom.
Yeah, yeah. Since u been gone.
And all you'd ever hear me say
Is "Don't globalize our jobs!"
That's all you'd ever hear me say.

BUT SINCE U BEEN GONE....
We've got this insane cowboy.
I visit MoveOn-Dot-Com
After you - rednecks get - what they want
Since u been gone

How can I put it, I was afraid of you.
I even was afraid of Janet Reno.
Yeah, yeah. Since u been gone.
How come I never hear you say
"We'll have a smaller government"
I guess you never felt that way.

BUT SINCE U BEEN GONE....
Hi-Cap mags are back in our schools
Torture isn't wrong. Yeah, yeah.
After you - the whole world - hates our guts.
Since u been gone.

You had your chance, you blew it
Out of sight out of mind.
Shut your fly, I just can't take it
Again and again and again and again

SINCE U BEEN GONE.... (Since u been gone....)
Eternal war against terror.
Little Green Footballs is popular.
After you (After you)
Our dollar - took a plunge.
I'd vote for your wife if I could.
But not John Kerry, he's a douche bag.
After you (After you)
Now you know (you know)
You should know( you should know) Red China,
The Chinese own our ass.

Since u been gone
Since u been gone
Since u been gone

Big apologies to Kelly Clarkson's "Since U Been Gone"

Re:Tell me about it.

[operagost]

Wow -- look at your idiocy on display for the entire internet to see. "Hi-cap mags are back in our schools?" Are you serious? Columbine happened while Clinton and his "assault weapon ban" was in effect. They killed quite well with 10-round magazines. What's happened since then? Any full-auto school slaughters? Oh yeah, in Beslan, Russia -- by terrorists.

Shoot, I'm still afraid of Janet Reno.

Re:s/Weary/Wary/

[lphuberdeau]

I think your forgetting about the hundreds (thousands?) of billions the US has in debt for various reasons, including the Bush wars.

Canada has debts too, because they decided at some point to develop infrastructures and improve life quality of the citizens. Now they are trying to pay it off.

Did all those bombs bring you inner peace?

Re:You have no right to visit here

[nbert]

Fair enough, a sovereign country can do almost anything within its borders. However, I believe that it's nevertheless valid to complain about unreasonable treatment of visitors.

For example back in the mid 90's I had to declare that I'm not planning any attacks on the White House when I visited the US (coming from Europe). There surely was no harm done to me, but seriously, how childish can it get?

Re:s/Weary/Wary/

[packeteer]

They attacked the WTC because it was a shining example of freedom, but they hate all christians, and intend to kill us all. no matter how cowardly you are, or where you run and hide.

Bahahahaha... riiiiiight...

Who knows why they attacked the WTC but i would guess thats not why. Maybe it was beucase it was the symbol of their oppression. A symbol of our power over them? They do not hate all christains. They do not want all christains dead. Look at some of the laws put in place in Iraq and other countires with the purpose of raping their economy so a few thousand people sitting in towering office buildings can get rich.

I find it conveniant that you talk about your family as having fought in every war. Thats very nice and all but i would like to think that we dont give any extra credit to someone's opinion ebcuase of what their family did. What if your family owned slaves? Should that follow you everywhere?

BTW nice job calling "Muhamad (ewww) Ali" a coward, nice touch.

Re:Canadians don't like the Patriot Act, eh?

[mwillems]

Easy to be admitted to Canada? When you actually READ that link, you will see there's no easy about it. Officers have to refer you to a board which they only do if you meet specific requirements and which they will NOT do if you meet other requirements (danger to security, criminal, already refused, and many others). None of these are a formality. In fact you will not even be allowed onto the plane to Canada in most countries without going through pre-inspection.

I am an engineer who moved to Canada 10 years ago from a wealthy European country. I have degrees, money, health, the language, everything I need inclduding a Cnadaina wife and two Canadian kids - and yet it took me a year and a half of laborious paperfilling to be allowed in. Believe me, refugees do NOT have an easier time of it.

Canadian email, for example...

[Obstin8]

Here's a disturbing example. Rogers Cable - Canada's largest cable ISP - recently outsourced all their customer-related provisioning to Yahoo; mail, web hosting, etc. By virtue of Yahoo being a US corporation, that means all Rogers Cable's customer's email automatically comes under the purview of the Patriot Act.

I have asked for clarification of this situation from Rogers but have not received a reply. As a Canadian I find it odious that my personal communications can be inspected by a foreign government without cause or warrant, and with no recourse to the law.

Both countries officially espouse 'due process of law'. For those of us looking in from the outside, it sometimes seems the US is working hard to change this to 'due process of erosion of privacy rights' (with a big side order of 'due process of corporate-profit enforcement' but that's another story).

If the tables were turned, and the Canadian government was trolling through American's e-mail accounts, the hue and cry from the south would be deafening. Right now, the only thing deafening is the silence as the American people allow their own government to trample the rights and freedoms that were bought and paid for in one Revolution, 2 World Wars, and countless other military and civil actions.

Don't get me wrong - I am not an Anti-American, as your media would have you believe all Canadians are. Hell, we all grew up watching the same TV shows and news programs, reading the same magazines, driving the same cars and eating at the same restaurants. We all swallowed the same propaganda.

That's why it's especially chilling to watch our neighbours sheepishly acquiesce to - or worse, actively endorse - these 'terror-busting' measures.

If American themselves can't identify and stop the erosion or elimination of their own rights, what hope does that leave for the rest of us?

Chilling, very chilling.

Re:s/Weary/Wary/

[packeteer]

Well keeping your guns is less of an actual deterant to an oppressive government and more of an indicator of when one is happening. A million armed people trying to start an uprising can be put down with far less disinformation and media control than fighting them back. This doesn't mean that guns should be banne either becuase obviously once the bill of rights starts getting overturned thats a sign as i said before. So basically keep your guns but please stop acting as if they will really do anything. As for the grandparent if oyu really want to keep your kids safe you might have to give up those guns. Sounds pretty lame but it sounds like what your facing.

I think it's an appropriate time...

[torstenvl]

...to share Ann Coulter's views and stupidity with regard to Canada...

http://homepage.mac.com/onegoodmove/movies/anncoul terCBC.html

Re:s/Weary/Wary/

[j0e_average]

Are you kidding? Canada had the opportunity to get the best of three countries...the technology of the US, the culture of the British, and the cuisine of the French.

Instead, they ended up with the culture of the US, the cuisine of the British, and the technology of the French!

Re:s/Weary/Wary/

[Monx]

Remind me again how DS1 had anything to do with our freedom.

Also, don't forget which "freedom loving" nation put Hussein in power and gave him the only WMD he ever had. How many dictatorships have we established over the years?

Have you ever heard of the School of the Americas? The US is directly responsible for most of the torture and brutality that went on in Latin America in the 20th century. I have family on the receiving end of the results of those wonderful lessons in "freedom."

I don't beat up random people, that does not make me a coward. Learn some history before you go shooting your mouth (and your guns) off again.

Overacting

[Corbets]

Just some advice for people further down the line...

Yeah, the Patriot act gives some legitimate cause for concern to people (although I personally don't feel threatened by it). However, Slashdot comments (and some of the editors) are famous for seeing the worst case only and getting so worked up that no one will take them seriously. For example: No offense to Timothy, but I stopped reading his articles a long time ago, since I know exactly what his opinion will be on any given topic (oh, no, government is horrible!).

Many of the posts I've seen above made it sound like the PATRIOT act is the end of the world. One claimed that we now live in an Orwellian 1984-style society. We don't. Sure, mistakes will be made along the way, but it happens all the time. Even with the judicial process, innocent people get tossed in jail from time to time. It happens.

But increasing the government's power (while not something I'm in favor of) is not really a cause of that. The people that work for the government are still just regular joes like you and me who will try their best to be good and do their jobs well. Even if you're one of those left-wing wackos who believes that President Bush is the antichrist, remember that the hundreds of thousands of people who work for him will make their own decisions about right and wrong.

Too many people on Slash see the government (or corporations, for that matter) as big, faceless entities whose sole goal is power and the opression of the little people's rights. Believe it or not, that's not really the goal. So just take it easy with your comments here. Try to reason things out before you post so that we can have intelligent debates instead of spreading FUD about American laws.

And just for my 2 cents on topic, tough luck Canada. :) If you do business that crosses into our country, you need to be held accountable by our laws, whatever they may be. The same holds true in reverse - if we're doing business with your country, then once we, our product, or our communication crosses the border, it's susceptible to whatever laws you have up there.

Re:Overacting

[Nos.]

Nice comment. I'm Canadian, and yes, I think the PATRIOT Act goes too far, but I agree, its not quite at the level Orwell described in 1984.

And just for my 2 cents on topic, tough luck Canada. :) If you do business that crosses into our country, you need to be held accountable by our laws, whatever they may be. The same holds true in reverse - if we're doing business with your country, then once we, our product, or our communication crosses the border, it's susceptible to whatever laws you have up there

Some of us up north here agree with you completely. A company I have worked with is keeping an eye on this issue right now. Though most of the customers don't know it, some of their information/communication passes through the US. I have brought this issue up to this company, and I think its only a matter of time before the news starts picking this up.

A lot of companies in Canada are in similar situations. They've outsourced parts of their services to US based companies. The problem is with PIPEDA (Canadian Privacy Act). I believe it should be changed in one of two ways:

• Explicitly disallow a Canadian company from exporting any of the information protected in the Act
• Force companies to explicitly inform existing and potential customers that information held does pass outside the borders of Canada and thus outside the protection of PIPEDA

It is not the job of the US (or any other country) to enforce the laws and protections available to Canadians

This is not surprising....

[Pig Hogger]

This is far from being surprising, given that canadian was sent to Syria by US authorities and tortured there for a year, thanks to the "Patriot" "act".

Re:s/Weary/Wary/

[gowen]

the US remains the last truly free country.

Unless you want to:
i) pay for sex
ii) smoke marijuana
iii) marry (or have a legal union with) someone of your own gender
iv) implement a number of simple mathematical algorithms in software
v) have a telephone conversation without risk of government surveillance
vi) travel internally on an aeroplane without ID....

I could go on. The US is the the last truly free country, as long as you define "free" as "free to do those things the government, in its wisdom, allow you to do".

Exactly like every other Western Democracy.

What do you need security for?

[Gonoff]

The last country that invaded Canada had its capital burned down. They made such a mess of the leaders residence that it has had to be whitewashed for nearly 2 centuries now.
With an example like that, the world should conclude that you people are good friends but lousy enemies!

Re:s/Weary/Wary/

[hodet]

" Canada has ridiculous gun laws. I guess they only want their violent criminals to own guns. They are well on the way to outlawing Christianity through BS 'hate crime legislation.' Love or hate the Patriot Act, the US remains the last truly free country."

Dude, you need to stop getting all your information from Fox News.

Re:s/Weary/Wary/

[mtrupe]

You didn't respond to the gun law legislation and outlawing of certain religions in Canada.

I'll take what little remains of my religious freedom and stay in the US.
http://fromthemorning.blogspot.com/

Watch out America...

[IInventedTheInternet]

You push us Canadians any more we'll write you a very nasty letter, and mail it too!

...we might even use the word damn... I'm sorry, that was rude.

Ruled by fear

[HangingChad]

The Patriot Act is rooted in fear. We had indications there were persons of interest in this country taking flying lessons before 9-11, we just didn't act on them. And don't blame the agents on the ground, they raised the warning. It was mid-management at the bureau who didn't take the reports seriously.

Before that it was almost 10 years between the first attempt on the WTC and the second.

So out of anger and fear we craft the badly misnamed US Patriot Act. An act that stomps on friend and foe alike, but hardest on our own people. We create yet another new massive federal bureaucracy to protect us. What do you suppose all those people at that massive new federal agency are going to do for the next 10 years to justify their existence? They're going to put their own people and friendly visitors through endless procedure and invasive, pointless snooping. All to try and find a handful of people patient enough to wait another decade or longer.

In some ways the terrorists have already won. How easily we're spooked into throwing over constitutional protections that used to be the envy of the world. Thousands died on the battlefield to protect those freedoms but what's that sacrifice to a generation that grew up under the coddled over-protection of those ridiculous Baby On Board signs?

I hope our friends to the north don't take it personally because it's not.

Re:s/Weary/Wary/

[Dr.Zong]

Canada does not have "ridiculous" gun laws. I own six personally. To get a gun you have to go on course, nowadays they call is the "Firearms safety course" it teaches you basic gun safety for all long guns, at the end you write a test, you pass the test - you can buy guns with your new license. The license is renewable without further testing. You want handguns, you stay a little longer in the course for the "Prohibited" weapons part, you write a second test, now you can own handguns.

To go Hunting, you need to go on a hunting course, it's called "Hunter Safety" and among other things teaches you about different types of wildlife, how to tell them apart from other wildlife, how to protect yourself and how to avoid shooting other people. You pass the course, you get a license. Pretty simple.

Since we do not allow concealed weapons here in Canada, in order to use your handgun you have to have a range membership and transport is only allowed between your place of residence and the range. That isn't that bad. Up here we use long guns primarily for hunting, and there are no further travel restrictions on those except they have to have trigger locks and be out of sight at all times while travelling. It's not that big of a deal really.

What people get into a hff about is the new "Registration" for guns. It's a little stupid, you have to pay the gov't $25CDN to buy/register/transfer a gun to your name. They then send you a little paper with the serial number (if it's a serialed gun) and make/model/calibre. You haver to carry this paper at all times in case the feds (not the provincials) decide to stop you and question your ownership... Again, not that bad.

Now, if you have over 15 guns the RCMP (feds) can show up at your door at any time and ask to inspect the gun store and ammo store and make sure you are doing things correctly. Again, I own six, I do not find this fifteen limit "surprise raid" thing an issue.

I don't like the feds knowing about each gun I own, but it's not that big of a deal, I use them for hunting, not for causing some armed rebellion.

If anyone has issues about the information I provided, I can provide links if I have to. But anyone who lives in Canada and actually knows the law, and is affected by it knows what I wrote to be true.

Anything you need to know can be found here or here. As for freedom of religion, your issues about "Hate Crimes" are blown way out of proporation. The issue you are referring to is basic civil righs and equality for all. Gay bashing is not a sport, and the churches have this issue with it. I myself have no problems with gay marriage - Canada is founded on freedoms for all, not just freedoms for the church - if the church wants to do something, fine - don't let it infringe on another minority's rights. The issue is the heads of church basically defaming the gay population which is against the law and the rights of gays are held in the same light as say, the rights of jewish people, or arabs not to be defamed or whatever by any other group.

In Canada we protect the rights of everyone, even if some groups like it or not. Seriously, do you think being a Christian gives you the right to bash gays? If you do, you have some predjudices that need to be worked on buddy.