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British Rail Moving Forward with Sat-Nav/GPS
de1orean writes "The BBC is reporting that after a successful limited trial using GPS satellite navigation to improve train safety and efficiency, British Rail is committed to instituting sat-nav throughout the system. It may be in operation as early as 2008."
Good work. I agree with sibling post.
It's a train. It's not like these things can wander all over the place.
Maybe if they were able to get them to run on time like they do in Japan and Fascist Italy, they could tell where the trains were by just looking at the clock.
but they still won't run on time.
Aww the memories of being a kid on a train platform sneaking through the fence behind the shelter only to relise I was like 2 stories up and there wasn't any barriers there to stop me falling..
I like muppets.
Anyone see this new flash ad that has audio. Fucking anoying, get rid of it Slashdot.
Get rid of MS Windows, Intocable
Why do fools insist on going to high tech solutions when they can't even get the low tech stuff right?
I have no personal experience with British rails, but I have read about the numerous nasty accidents they have had recently.
I do have experience with San Francisco's BART and the Tokyo subways about the same time, mid 1970s.
BART had fancy computer controlled trains which sometimes left the station without the operator in the cab. They actually stopped correctly at the next station, usually, but sometimes the trains stopped past the station, or shot off the end of the rails for the last station, and sometimes they opened doors on the wrong side of the train, right over the third rail. They were having one heck of a time even running the trains as close as 5 minutes apart.
Meanwhile, Tokyo's Ginza line, built just after the 1923 earthquake I believe, a completely manual system, had been running trains every minute or two without problems for years. That line was so funky that car lights would go off for a second or two as they crossed junctions; you could watch this light blanking travel down the train towards you.
Why do these idiots insist on spending a fortune on high tech solutions when low tech solutions have been around for a hundred years and yet they can't get it right, even with examples around the world of making them work? Is it just empire building?
Infuriate left and right
They renationalised and didn't tell anyone?
sulli
RTFJ.
CSX rail in NY has been using sat nav to guide trains and to also NOT have a live person DRIVING the train!!!
So, they're implying the conductor is dumber than a GPS unit?
>> It could also tell controllers whether trains are running to timetable, and which services are running.
... use a clock? :-)
Now what might be fun is if stations had real-time (public) monitors tracking incoming traffic.
Is it that hard to follow the track?
"Is it that hard to follow the track?"
Maybe Dr. Richard Kimble is the driver?
This joke did the rounds during the first US-Iraq war and shortly after a big train accident..
What is the difference between British Rail and a Scud missile?
British Rail kills people.
Evil people are out to get you.
No. However the infrastructure across the UK is ancient and so neglected since Thatcher put the knife in that it pretty much needs completely replacing.
Rather than installing a *lot* of cabling, a wireless system would obviously be cheaper.
They are doing it because its cheaper.
Evil people are out to get you.
moi aussi. But it needs a European branch.
You've never been on a UK train have you.
and they say canadians are dumb, at least we dont get lost following rail tracks
credits to whoever made it. NSFW.
When did this happen? Back to socialist railway \o/ All of a sudden i'm looking forward to travelling next weekend.
I hope they aren't thinking it is going to work on that?!?
Sure high tech makes for better systems in the future. This system will make it possible to know exactly where trains are, they could have monitors at all sations, or web sites, showing expected arrival times down to the second, great stuff.
... they wasted so much money and trouble on their computerized train controls and forgot all the basics like double tracking to allow trains to pass and sidings to allow broken trains to get out of the way.
But when they can't even get basic block controls down right, and guarantee switches are in the right position, why waste time on this? It's like putting power windows in cars when you can't even keep the doors from falling off the hinges, or worrying about computerized anti-lock brakes back when they still had mechanical cable brakes.
Just like BART
That's what's wrong here. If they can't get basic safety standards in place, high tech GPS position reporting and timely web sites aren't worth beans.
Infuriate left and right
personally, we're all just so damn glad to see our thoughts finally being modernized ... we were getting quite tired of losing our trains
Words to men, as air to birds.
It amazes me that the Brits think this is a big deal. Then again, maybe it doesn't. Here in the US, trucking companies use GPS and satcom to create greater efficiencies than would otherwise be possible. http://www.power-trak.com/ BTW, I have no involvement with trucking, or the above company. But I do think that this is a nice use of technology.
"GPS-tooth" on the train to Bath ...
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
"British Rail" hasn't existed in over a decade...
...as the onboard unit would have to send data at the rate of hundreds of location datagrams per minute. The point being, a location is a point in time - may not be relevant 30 seconds later, travelling at 150km/hr. Trains move quite quickly, and given past British rail mishaps, existing systems must have to be sped up a bit.
:-(
With that said, GPS/GPRS units would have to communicate fairly frequently. At the very most a location sent to the server(probably over GPRS as a UDP datagram) every 2 minutes.
In New Zealand, the GSM provider here (business plan) charges per 10,000KB packet, even for a 500byte datagram
Some rough maths:
A location data packet(charged at 10k) every 1 minute.
Thats 0.6 MB per hour.
Train runs, say, 10 hours per day, thats 6mb.
Per month thats 180mb.
In New Zealand, thats about $200 of data.
In my town, a taxi company uses it. The combined cost per month is $33,000 in data charges.
And thats on 5 min updates!
Anyone got some info on charges from other countries?
IE how much will is cost our pommie friends per month per train, running 10 hr/days, sending location every 5,2,1 minutes, 30 seconds?
In post Patriot Act America, the library books scan you.
Given that you have never admitted knowing anything at all other than how to spout off to people you know nothing about, you are the pontificator here. What's the matter, can't answer simple questions? Why waste time on GPS exact positioning when they can't even get basic stuff right like opening the right switches?
You have no knowledge of my knowledge of trains. You say GPS is cheaper, yet primitive countries run mechanical simple railways just fine, or at least better than Britain. Is it possible this embarasses you and you have to make false justifications about using more expensive more trouble-prone high tech systems?
Come to the point. Explain how GPS and transmitters and receivers and computers is cheaper and simpler than old fashioned block controls, which used to work in Britain, as they still do in some rather primitive countries. Explain how Britain is too technologically backwards to match third world railroads.
Infuriate left and right
GPS is not so much to let the train driver know where he/she is (although that is a valid use under some control systems) as it is to let the train controllers and the safety interlocking systems know where the train is. This is obviously an important consideration before trying to place another train into that location ;-)
Historically there are rail systems around the world that do without this basic functionality, particularly in areas of low density traffic. Instead, procedures were established by which a section was proven clear. The signaller at the entrance to the section (or 'block') would ring a bell to let the signaller at the exit from the block know that a train was entering the block. The signaller at the exit would then ring a bell back to the signaller at the entrance when the train cleared the block section.
This worked to some extent (and indeed continues to work in many places around the world), but was highly susceptible to human error. A couple of years ago, at Glenbrook in Sydney's west, a crash may have been averted had the signaller had some indication to remind him that the Indian Pacific had not yet cleared the section ahead of the suburban passenger train. As it was, he forgot to inform the second train of the first's existence, with the result that the second rammed into the back of the first.
The most common method for establishing a train's locations is the track circuit - a power source is placed on one end of a section of track, whilst a receiver measures the voltage at the other end of the section. When the train is on the section, the axles of the train short out the circuit, and the receiver measures a 0V potential. This is fed back to the local interlocking, and any signals which require this track to be clear in order to give a proceed aspect will go to stop, preventing any other trains from entering the section and hence avoiding a crash. This is what the article refers to as the "current block signalling system".
The problem with track circuits is twofold. As mentioned in the article, the accuracy is not great - track circuits can often extend over several kilometres, so the best that can be said is that the train is "somewhere within that circuit". Secondly, the track circuits are relatively difficult to maintain - maintenance crews must go to each track circuit in order to perform routine maintenance. Travel time being relatively unproductive, rail operators would much prefer that maintenance be achievable in one location.
GPS would overcome both of the problems listed above. The accuracy would be greatly increased, limited only by the accuracy of the GPS. Similarly, the equipment for the location would all be located on the rollingstock, rather than trackside, and could be brought to the maintainers. Further, with systems like the European Rail Traffic Management System (ERTMS), GPS can be used to run trains much closer together in what is called a 'moving block configuration'.
This translates into lower running/maintenance costs, combined with greater efficiency - is it any wonder BR are interested? Aren't you?
In few days GPS-enabled trains could create a map of the entire rail system.
Train drivers will be happy... no more asking directions!
Here's something else for you to answer. An old fashioned low tech block system, as Britain presumably still has but not necessarily working very well, is priced on miles of track and number of switches. No matter how many trains are in the system, the cost is pretty constant.
Start putting GPS units and radios on every piece of rolling stock, and not only is the price variable, but the bandwidth goes up, the interference of transmitters grows, and costs mount further.
Can you explain how the already sunk cost of the primitive block system can be more expensive than new equipment per car? Don't pass it off as the old equipment wearing out -- all equipment wears out, but GPS units and radios wear out a lot faster than buried cables and signal lights.
Infuriate left and right
2) They're not "committed" to using it. "Key industry figures" (lobby groups?) had a meeting on Tuesday about whether to implement it system-wide. RTFA.
3) It won't be ready for service in 2008, that's when Galileo will be operational. RTFA.
The GPS one is a prime example. The door systems on the modern trains (the ones with sliding doors that don't have to be slammed shut and opened by reaching out of a window and fumbling for a lever) are GPS actuated. These doors will not allow passengers to open them unless the location of the train can automatically be established as being within a few metres of a normal station platform stopping point. The upshot? When it's cloudy or there is any kind of reception fault (as when we get back into London's Victoria station and we're under 20 ft of steel-reinforced concrete) the doors cannot be opened without the driver entering the positioning coordinates manually.
A driver was telling me that there is no 'look just open the bloody doors - I've got a key' button. So journey's all over the south coast are now delayed by really stupid door faults. Ironically the most reliable trains are the slam-door variety I mentioned earlier (which are eminently usable despite feeling like Stephenson's Rocket - unless you are in a wheelchair and then you can pretty much forget it).
...and, on the seventh day, God switched off his Mac.
They used this on the line I used to get to work, Hastings to Cannon St.
It was great in the summer, but not so great in the winter. When there were clouds. And no GPS reception.
We had to sit outside each station for 5 minutes while the driver got 'authorisation' to open the doors, becasue the GPS didn't know we were sitting beside the station.
Wonderfull bit of over engineering.
We've not had "British Rail" for some time. For you USians who may be a little confused, here's a little history.
Before the 50s, the railways were all in lots of groups of competing companies. The government then nationalised these companies (OMG SOCIALISM!!!1) as, well, you can't really run a railway for profit and even if you could it's a son of a bitch to do so without killing hundreds of people. This new confederacy was British Rail, and had that pointy double arrow logo some of you may have seen.
In the 60s, the government axed all of the loss making lines in an attempt to make a profit. This involved axing all of the lines to small rural communities, and it made the railway much less attractive to people and made the car a de facto requirement.
In the 80s, Margaret Thatcher grew weary of nationalised industry, and while sitting on her stylised throne of evil ordered that the railways be privatised, which took effect in 1997, just when the new government was coming in. Clever that.
So now we're stuck with a bunch of fucking idiots who can't run trains on time and have to rely on satellites to do so. As I once heard someone describe, it's fairly simple to run a decent train service; you have a train, you have a track, the former rides on the latter. The problem is that we have lots of people trying to make money off it, which just won't work.
By summer it was all gone...now shesmovedon. --
The article doesn't say, so it's reasonable for someone non-British to assume it's still called that, but it's probably Network Rail (formerly Railtrack) doing this. They are a now part-re-nationalised company that looks purely after the rails, stations and other non-profit making infrastructure. The private rail companies still own and (sometimes) run the trains and are doing very nicely thank you very much Mr Major (A stunning example of how privatisation actually works: Public funding, Private profit).
Rant over
Trains running on time in fascist Italy
British Rail : Lets Get GPS.. Commuter : Will that make more than 1 in 10 trains come on time? British Rail : No Commuter : Why Bother!! British Rail : Saftey. Commuter : So your planning on having more accidents? British Rail : No Commuter : Well? British Rail : We are a bunch of idiots that wear cardigans and have no clue what the commuter wants! Commuter : Finally You got something right!
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Mind you that the way the Central and Victoria Lines are automated is fairly unsophisticated. There are fixed signals on the track telling the train where to speed up and slow down. If anything is out of the ordinary then driver intervention is necessary. The DLR is newer and more sophisticated.
Implementing this on the scale of the entire National Rail network would be prohibitively expensive.
Being a victim of british public transport, the trains are all good except from when their computers error, several times this past year I have been delayed as the trains pc requires a reboot. Atmospheric as it goes all quite and the lights go out, but never the less annoying.
Other problems include the trains not realising its at a train station so the doors do not open until a guard manually opens them. Nowadays the guards seem to open the doors manually all the time!
It has only been a handful of delays but still more than all the problems I experienced on the old stock of trains from a decade of rail travel.
it was disolved ages ago, its privatised now, with diff train companies for different regions and one company for the rails etc (which went bust / was broken up a bit ago)
After reading some of the comments here im shocked, lucky I don't need to take trains much, the tube is bad enough. but seriously - the fikin doors wont open because theres no satellite reception to tell the train that its in a station wtf? This is beyond a joke, how is it even possible for some fucking idiot to design a system like that? Who is responsible and why haven't they been fired? This just brings down the country, we used to be able to run trains so punctually people could set their clocks by them - literally, and now we've been reduced to the entire system coming to a halt because of some leaves or clouds in a country that is leafy and cloudy half the bloody time! Margaret Thatcher was a bitch, at least when major back-bone systems are controlled by the government, the voter can hire and fire any idiots and still only pay half price. I can't wait until we privatise the police and army, it'll be designer uniforms, advertising-patches and 'you have the right to remain silent, sponsored by Vodaphone text&go'
ok thats the privatisation and incompetent people rant over..
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
British Rail doesn't exist, and hasn't for many years. It disappeared when the railways were privatised.
The problem with GPS is availability, strength of the signal and position resolution. Beside with GPS you may have problems if, due to some crisis, signal precision may be reduced, or worst. I have no idea if a solar flare could have an influence on GPS availability...
In ETCS, a new standard in Europe for train control system, balises are used to help locate the trains on the track and transmit information from track to train. A balise is an electronic device installed on the track. It is activated by the train when it drives direct over it. It does not require a power supply, power is supplied by the train radio emission. The device is quite sturdy and built as simple as possible to make it extremely reliable. It looks like a floor mat. The information to be transmitted can be stored on the balise, in which case it does not need any external connection, or supplied remotely..
There are several levels in ETCS. In ETCS Level 2 and 3 all balises can be autonomous, that is, all information to be transmitted is stored in the balise, no external connections are needed The train is connected to a RBC (Radio Block Center) through a GSM-R (GSM for railways.) radio network. The RBC supervises the train and computes the movement commands to be delivered to the train. On the RBC there is a map of the track which the position of each balise on each track. When a train drives passes over a balise, it receives among other possible information's, the balise identification which is transmitted to the RBC. This balise identification locates the train precisely on the route map. Between balises the train uses its internal odometry system to determine the distance covered. Odometry errors are corrected each time a new balise is detected.
In ETCS Level 2 all signals on the track can be replaced by cab signaling. Less hardware is needed to be installed on the tracks. In Level 3 track circuits are no longer needed, the only hardware required on the track are balises and the GSM-R radio network ( and the rails of course ).
The GSM-R radio network is not only used for train control, is the communication network for all voice and data transmission of the railway operation. Therefore its installation and operation cost are shared. The infrastructure used for GSM-R: towers and communication networks, can also be used to install a GSM network to provide standard mobile communication to passengers..
Some studies have been made to combine GPS and ETCS balises. So far as I know they are limited to low density, low traffic and open areas. I my opinion with GPS there will always be coverage problems and in the case of a subway quite unusable. Interruptions on the GSM-R coverage, due to coverage holes or temporal failures do not affect train operation under ETCS.
With balises you have a system which is always under control of the railway operator and independent of geographical, geopolitical issues or deployment delays.
For move information over ETCS www.ertms.com or Google it up.
And yes, I work for an ETCS project.
The network is now Network Rail and is a non-profit making organisation.
Of course this GPS tech will mean new excuses like there's leaves on the receiver etc....
British Rail? Didn't you guys split up?
[In a bad Russian accent] HA! Dat's vat ve vanted you to believe... [Presses a small button on the desk]
* Virgin Rail rolling stock suddenly become Intercity 125s
* Trians run slightly closer to "on time"
* Zombie Isambard Kingdom Brunel: "Grrr... Must. Crush. Privatisation!"
Christopher Harrison
I'm on a Mac browsing with Safari and it's pissing me off too.
That was classic intercourse!
Thatcher isn't to blame for the basic economics of railway systems. Compared to using personal cars/trucks on a publicly funded road network, rail never stands a chance.
The privatisation of BR was, nonetheless scandalously bad value for the previous owners (ie, US).
That was classic intercourse!
They ought to concentrate on getting the things THERE first, doesn't matter where THERE is.
For the record, my trip is 25 miles each way to work... the record time to get home is leave work at 15:35, arrive home at 20:55. It would be quicker to walk.
Is it safe to depend on GPS considering the US Administration said it was willing to turn it off during "terrorist acts"?
I think having the EU's Gallileo (when it's up) as a backup, and even some kind of intertial system as well would be a good idea for safety reasons.
GPS resolution is LESS THAN the spaces between adjcent tracks. How the hell this system is gonna tell on which track a given train is? It's a little bit important to make sure that trains don't run into each other, à la "cornfield meet".
And, besides, trains run on tracks, whose position are firmly anchored in space and time. Furthermore, those said tracks are already divided in blocks, each of which is equipped to detect the presence of a train on it, in order to effect a suitable signalling system.
In other words, the system **ALREADY** knows where the trains are.
Perhaps it's just yet another technical band-aid plastered to a system to hide the PHBs' innate inability to communicate with the people in the field in order to manage the whole bloody thing???
Someone wants to put on his hat and play with a really big train set.
I’m old enough to remember 16K of memory being described as “whopping”
I knew a fellow who was worked on Advanced Train Protection (APT - not the Debian tool, which works really well), and he was telling me about some of the problems they had. The biggest one was that when he was working on the project (in the 1980s), the maps they had of various railroad lines were in some cases a hundred years old - and hadn't been updated properly. They built a prototype based on old data, and after it did nothing to stop the train in the station went out and did some direct measurements - and figured out that in an emergency, APT would have stopped the train after it ploughed through about half of Burger King!
Lead developer, http://wisptools.net
should be both
'cause if a car falls off the end, who knows?
every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
An inertial navigation system would be an obvious fix to the limited availability of GPS. When GPS fixes are available, they can be used to zero the drift on the inertial platform. What's the going price for a complete inertial navigation system these days? Today we have laser ring gyros and micro-machined accelerometers, which should cut the cost. If they can install them on commercial aircraft, they should be able to put one on a train.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
I do trvel on British trains, on Southern. They have GPS-controlled doors that
(a) won't open in the main terminus (Victoria), so we have to wait about 30 seconds for the gurad / driver to wake-up and open them and
(b) which don't work properly even in stations in the opne (it's discouraging to hear that the driver needs to reboot the OBC to get the dorrs open - must be WindowsMe as it takes ages).
British Rail was the name used by the last nationalised rail network. Since the government sold off pretty much everything to private companies (with or without various unenforceable guarantees about service levels, etc.) there has been no such entity as British Rail.
Railtrack (alias Railcrack, railcrap, etc.) gave way to the current quasi-non-governmental organisation (Quango) called 'Network Rail'.
Network Rail STILL cannot work out the easiest route between Ryde Hoverport and Ryde Esplanade (Clue: Use the footbridge, the distance is fifty feet). If you'd like ask them yourself, enter the necessary details at Their journey planner page
While you are doing this, please spare a thought for those of us who have to use their service on a regular basis. Thanks.
Not entirely fair to blame Thatcher for that (she has an extremely impressive rap-sheet of evil herself, thank you), UK rail has been fucked since the 60's when Dr. Beeching abandoned half the regional lines in the UK. Jim Callaghan, Maggie Thatcher, John Major, and now Blair. Not one of these governments has produced anything but hot air and ink when it comes to railways.
Now that the whole thing is in the hands of private enterprise (well, except when they are given billions of pounds of tax funds..), we cannot expect matters to improve. As it is, rail travel in the UK is assuming the same aspect that it does in the US - i.e., not the most attractive proposition.
Interesting to note that several train companies in the UK are intending to install screens and speakers which cannot be turned off by passengers in each carriage, showing advertisements. Have these people never read 1984?
...the basic economics of railway systems. Compared to using personal cars/trucks on a publicly funded road network, rail never stands a chance.
I think that those economics are a little too basic, because it isn't clear what we are comparing. Perhaps in terms of the cost of implementing a road infrastructure versus a rail one, the road network is cheaper. However, it is clear that towns served by good rail connections receive a significant economic boost from the trade that this facilitates.
- Brian.
Maybe this was true in the past, but I don't see it in Britain today. Look at Oxford - shite rail connections but served very well by road now, and it's in pretty good economic shape. In fact, the Oxford Tube coach service dos most of what a commuter rail system would do at hugely lower cost.
That was classic intercourse!