Slashdot Mirror
Apple Agrees to Hold Off on Subpoenas
ido writes "Apple has agreed to hold off on serving subpoenas related to their John Doe civil suits against some free press journalists to reveal sources releasing Apple's "trade secrets." This is related to a previous article." The original story has some more background info as well. While Apple is notorious for its secrecy before MacWorlds, Apple probably figured out that dragging people into court usually does little for one's popularity.
Has Apple received extra PR attention? Yes.
Has Apple made it clear that it can and will do what it takes to suppress any leaks? Yes.
Apple is a profitable company, it doesn't need lawsuits to stay in business, cetainly not chasing its own tail or shooting in the dark lawsuits.
Rock that crushes, Paper & Scissors that don't matter.
"Apple probably figured out that dragging people into court usually does little for one's popularity."
Pre-teen girl: Lyke OMG!!1!11!1!!! did u c how apple dragged all the peeps to court or somethin'?? I totalie wont by a ipOd now!
Ya...I don't think it'll shake down that way....
While Apple is notorious for its secrecy before MacWorlds, Apple probably figured out that dragging people into court usually does little for one's popularity.
They probably caught the employee who was leaking.
Sometimes, when I feel most let down by Steve Jobs for doing something that just seems to be contrary to the very Apple-nature of the company, he makes a decisive reversal of tack and makes everything all right again.
No one wants to see the fans and lovers of the Macintosh persecuted for trying to find ways to love the company more, and that's what this is: just another way for Mac fans to find out more about the company.
On the other hand, it is perfectly understandable, as it is part of business, to keep future plans as secret as possible to keep the dogs on Wall Street at bay. However, it was really disappointing to see Apple trying to exact its revenge on those who love it the most.
I'm glad Steve Jobs made this decision. He continues to lead the company in the right direction and bringing us, the loyal Apple fans, the most advanced computers of today.
The fact is they know they can scare off other websites in the future with legal action, and they'll continue to do so--that they ended up having to put their money where their mouth was here is simply to show that they'll actually take the first steps if necessary.
This site was an exception to the rule--the rule being, if you are a large corporation, you can send a takedown notice anywhere for any reason, no matter how spurious, and 99% of the people will comply. That is still true today, and the fact that Apple finally was called on one bluff really doesn't change much.
this won't be a popular position (probably), but i think it's rather unfortunate.
i don't think the journalists should be required to divulge their sources... i really don't
however, i don't think that those who try to turn their backs on NDAs for personal gains should be protected
i was kinda interested to see how the whole suit would pan out in court... i thought the EFFs argument was sound, but apple seemed to have a strong case
i was really curious about how that one would go
"Newitz said that "Apple may have a case" in suing anonymous individuals for violations of the Uniform Trade Secrets Act (the Act holds liable those who receive trade secrets that were knowingly misappropriated), "but the issue is how they're getting the information." She said that Apple's actions are following a "tortured route" and that the company seems to be attempting to "beat these journalists with litigation."
The EFF's position is that the Web sites in question are viable journalistic endeavors, which places their writers under reporter shield laws, both at the federal and state level.
The federal shield law, which is based on the First Amendment, guarantees the "free flow of information" and allows reporters to assure sources that they will remain anonymous.
"There is a loophole--it's not that a reporter never has to give up information," Newitz said. "They can be forced to reveal sources only if every other source is exhausted." Newitz said that she felt Apple has not come close to examining other potential methods of identifying the parties who leaked confidential information; she said that to her knowledge, Apple has never performed or admitted to performing an internal investigation into NDA (nondisclosure agreement) violations.
The facts of this case are a bit more nuanced than I have seen discussed so far. Does the First Amendment protect a reporter's right to withhold identify his or her anonymous sources? Yes. There are times when a reporter is asked to break this bond, and we are seeing a current case over the probable felony that resulted from revealing Valerie Plame's CIA affiliation where the issues are much more serious than this Apple business. In this more serious case, a crime was committed, and a couple of levels of courts have ordered the reporters to identify their sources or else face contempt charges. The New York Times, among others, continues to fight this pressure to reveal anonymous sources so as to protect the precendent for future anonymous sources.
This Apple case is not nearly as important, and no court is going to go around ordering reporters to reveal Apple news sources the way they are with those associated with the White House who may have committed a felony. And not only is the Apple case involving less serious information, it seems Apple hasn't even done the basics first: Conduct thorough in-house investigation into which employee is doing the leaking. Even the EFF says that once Apple has done everything else, forcing a news source to report the identity of an anonymous source might be on the table, from the legal perspective.
So for now, Apple is backing down. But this is not the clear-cut case that we've seen. It may yet come down to the Apple news sites being asked to reveal their sources, for it may well be that some Apple employees are violating the terms of their employment. And that's what Apple is really trying to do: Find employees who are violating contract rules. But first they have to do everything else to find out this information before they think of asking a reporter to give up his or her information. But that could yet happen.
Combine that with an implementation of Unix that wipes the floor with Linux and BSD for security, stability and (most importantly) usability, and its not hatd to see why Apple can afford to be magnanimous. Fast-forward 20 years, Apple might be in the position Microsoft are in now. Stranger things have happened!
After all, they want to sell Minimacs, not scare their user base out of it.
Or do they?
All the anti-microsoftites would feel vindicated about their campaign to ensure everyone else hates MS too.
Instead, since it is Apple, people will give them the benefit of the doubt or even be on Apple's side.
Please stop spewing the 1/2 speed/2x price bullshit.
Apple machines may cost more, but not nearly 100% more. Performance is pretty comparable, unless you bought into Intel's "Mhz is the only measure of a chip" mindset.
Closely related: Judith Miller and Matthew Cooper are going to have to go to jail if they don't reveal their sources in the Valerie Plame affair.
We wonder if AppleInsider and Think Secret staff will do the same.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
Apple probably figured out that dragging people into court usually does little for one's popularity.
More likely, their mission of letting people know they take product leaks seriously was accomplished. I always expected them to drop the suits--they were just saying, "Hey, we can't have our shit getting leaked, and we are not afraid to pursue it legally if we have to."
No, they're just saving themselves paperwork. No point filing until the Superior Court of Santa Clara County rules. Nothing moderate or altruistic happening yet.
This is my post. There are many others like it. If you don't like what you read here, go try one of the others.
Whoever was leaking the info has presumably caught a serious break here. Maybe apple / steve only intended on scaring the shit out of A) the rat and B) the rumor sites. I bet accurate rumors will be a lot harder to come by from now on.
Kiteboarding Gear Mention slashdot and get 10% off!
I hope no-one thinks that Apple saw the error of it's ways and decided to withdraw. The main reason they pulled away from this issue was due to the bad press. For a company who's very existence depends on the goodwill of it patrons (as opposed to bland acceptance) this shouldn't come as any surprise. While I agree it's refreshing to see a company actually listen to the community, I certainly don't think Apple should be praised for backing down from a lawsuit that it never should have initiated.
What I am wondering is, how do companies that are not as much in the spotlight as Apple, handle situations where secret information is being leaked? Companies that don't have to fear for a loss of "fans". Also how big an issue is the cost of such a leak? Anyone got any info on that?
Carpe Noctem
I think it's because all Mac users are artists, and artists are all very emotional and tend to be poor with numbers. So even though they're spending more, they don't even realize it. Silly artists!
What I don't understand is why the universities and government agencies that are using Macs for clustering and other uses are buying computers that are twice as expensive and half as capable. It must be that these purchasers are part of the loyal "Apple fan base," sort of like Milwaukee Brewers fans. They hang tough and spend the money only because they feel a special attachment to Apple, rather than because Apple products have any real worth.
You're right about Apple dumping on their customers and fans too. Did you hear about the time Steve Jobs cancelled the second day of his concert in Boston, and nobody who bought tickets even got a refund? What an arrogant bastard!
Personally I'll stick with the alternatives. IE 6 kicks ass, my Windows XP system never gives me any security problems, and I like buying new hardware every two years, because it guarantees I'll be able to brag about the CPU speed of my computer to my buddies.
Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
Has anyone even claimed that the person/people leaking this info to Apple fan/rumor sites was receiving money for the information?
It seems to me more like this info was leaked by a Mac fan to other like-minded folks who buy the majority of the products sold anyway. Attacking these people for "NDA violations" isn't much different than record companies suing the biggest Metallica fans for p2p sharing some Metallica songs. Legally, yeah, you can do it - but how sensible is it really? Bite the hands that feed you, and you'll simply end up with less food.
In the most recent slashdot story posted on this topic, I asked the question, "What is a 'journalist'," considering that there are current, in force US law(s) that may have been violated by a 3rd party knowingly revealing information that could reasonably be assumed to be protected by a confidentiality agreement, and in the ensuing insistence that these web sites should be protected as "journalists", I got an array of replies about what constitutes a "journalist":
... and hence the creators of the journal are called 'journalists'"
"A person is acting in a journalist capacity when they provide non fiction information about contemporary events to an audience [via a medium other than direct speech]. Those are the criteria."
"I don't see why bloggers can't be considered journalists."
"...anyone can be a journalist if by journalist you mean someone who distributes information (regardless of accuracy) to a public audience (regardless of size). Bloggers? They're journalists. Editor of your high school newspaper? Yep, journalist, too."
"I think that many websites constitute being called a 'journal'
"...a journalist is anyone who can get their documented beliefs published."
"Even the lamest 'blog is a "journal" unarguably. So yes, anyone with a web site is a "journalist". The government should not get into the business of determining who's a "legitimate journalist" and who's a "illegitimate journalist not worthy of the protections of freedom of the press". To do so would amount to licensing journalists, which I think is very much the wrong idea."
"It's 2005. "Journalism" means everything and everything."
"A journalist is anyone reporting news to the public. That could be by handbill, newspaper, broadside, web site, word of mouth, by scribbling on a piece of paper. It should be as broad as possible. Spreading of information == good."
Now, considering all of these replies that insist that Nick Ciarelli (of Think Secret) and these other websites are "journalists", and anyone who's apparently got any kind of website at all on any topuc should be considered a "journalist", certainly that means that Jeff Gannon (aka James Guckert) is a "journalist" too?
Or does it not work both ways?
You haven't cited your numbers for the dell.
Veritest PowerMac G5 comparison That's a PDF, I'm sorry to say.
This is the report your Apple scores came from. When Veritest ran the G5 against a P4 3 GHz Dell, the dell had an FP base of 693. You quote a 2.8 GHz dell at 1209.
Does this mean that a 2.8 GHz P4 is twice as fast as a 3 Ghz P4, or does it mean you made a big mistake somewhere? You *do* know that CPU benchmarking requires a careful equalization of all other parameters? For example, the G5 in this test had one processor physically removed and the Dell had its hyperthreading disabled.
So now the plan is:
1. Get some information on future Apple products.
2. Make a web-site with said information.
3. Call yourself a "journalist" to protect the people who leaked the information.
4. Sell adverts on the site so that you can...
5. Profit!!!
The idea behind protecting a journalist's sources is so that people will talk to reporters in confidence, particularly about shady goings on, so that journalists can be free to expose all the gory details without fear. That's all very laudable.
This is different. Here the leak itself is the shady thing. Some guy is breaking his NDA for some unknown reason - money, fame, revenge, make himself feel good, whatever. "Think Secret" was even soliciting people to talk to them about Apple's trade secrets.
There's no dark dangerous secret here that needs to be exposed for the public good. This isn't about protecting a journalist's sources. It's just greed. This guy is not a journalist, he's merely exposing other people's secrets to make money. Calling himself a journalist doesn't make it so.
Your analogy is flawed. You're working for a company and you have signed an NDA. No matter how big a fan you are, that does not give you the right to violate the agreements you've signed with your employer.
If Metallica's manager were to bring out the tunes and lyrics of albums Metallica hasn't even recorded yet, you might have a closer to the analogy.
This does not fall under the realm of IP law, rather under contract law. The guy violated an employer-employee contract no matter what. I think Apple would be setting a bad precedent if it did not drag them out into the public.
Working as an admin in a jr./high school this was enough to make my tea come out my nose...
Thanks!
"...Well, there's egg and bacon; egg sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg bacon and spam; egg bacon sausage and spam..."
You are worried about giving eweek a slashdotting? Thats like worrying about slashdotting NYT or news.com.com.com... or something. At least it makes it easy for the really lazy among us to not have to click the story link.
In Republican America phones tap you.
Disclaimer: I don't own a mac, but I do use an iPod.
Mhz is the least important measure of a chip, since by increasing it you decrease the number of CPU cycles that're carrying data.
A Seti@home/Folding@Home dataset (IIRC it was folding) that usually takes about twelve hours on a pc will finish in about two on a G5, back when they were single-processor -- the on-campus computer store was playing around with their display model.
Still, until Half-Life 2 is available Mac native, few will buy them.
Pissing on your most ardent fans is pretty stupid -- when will companies figure this out?
If you don't want information to get out before you're ready, you have two options:
1. Get ready sooner.
2. Release lots of bogus information so nobody knows when the rumors are legit (personally, I think this strategy is both more fun and easier to do)
Has Apple aired any actual evidence in court that there was an NDA breach? Somehow it seems that literally any one of thousands of low-wage workers in some foreign land could have sent word of a product before release.
If Apple hasn't shown that there must have been an NDA leak, and used some other methods to investigate the source of the leak, there's no way this guy should be compelled to reveal his source. They're just bullying him.
Now before I get modded down, I be to remind whoever might read this that what I am saying is FACT. - bogaboga
Ok, as long as we're nitpicking analogies here, let's correct yours too.
This guy (supposedly, though is this even known yet?) working at Apple and violating said NDA doesn't seem to be some sort of upper-management type. Rather, he/she is probably just another average employee who happened to be part of a group working on one of these projects.
Therefore, it's not at all like "Metallica's manager" bringing out tunes and lyrics Metallica didn't even record yet. It's much more like some guy working at the record company, maybe in the shipping or marketing dept., leaking out a preview of some of the supposed new lyrics on a Metallica fan-club site.
If so, I once again say - despite it being technically illegal under contract law, I'm not sure I'd opt to pursue it. It's easy enough to turn a "blind eye" to it, realizing that it's more beneficial to let it go than to attack your own customer-base.
(In fact, it's arguable that Metallica already learned this lesson. They *did* raise a huge legal stink about their music being distributed as MP3s, and what became of it? Their next big album release was relative failure, and you now hear just as many people scoff at their name as rave about them being "metal gods" and what-not. Meanwhile, I'd say they stopped about 0% of the trafficing of their music over the net and gained practically nothing in "new sales" from their actions.)
What does the First Amendment have to do with this case? I quote:
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
How does this apply here?
GPL Deconstructed
I guess I am the dumbest person on earth then. I am a recent switcher (I got a mac mini). I just got tired of the virii and spyware. This mac mini is the best computer I have ever owned.
I want my rights back. I was actually using them when our government stole them after 9/11.
Imagine if someone had leaked the iPod, iPod mini, iTunes Music Store, or iPod Shuffle N months ahead, enough time for a competitor like Sony, Creative, Dell, etc, to release something to deflate their announcement.
Why, then, does the existence of such a product or development not rank as highly as Coke's formula?
If Pepsi could make Coke, that would shatter Coke's hold on the market.
If Creative made iPods, wouldn't that similarly destroy Apple's position in music players?
GPL Deconstructed
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
Where does it say anything that applies here? Has Apple moved Congress to pass laws that make it illegal to publish rumors online? To make it illegal for fansites to exist?
Better yet, have you heard of the UTSA, Uniform Trade Secrets Act, which I believe applies here?
Where the existence of Apple's products being announced too early harms it in two ways:
Stalls sales of existing products as people await new products
Gives competing companies an unnecessary advantage in the market
All we have to do is imagine this: ThinkSecret publishes that Apple, in May, will make all iPods with color screens and photo capabilities, drop the price by $100, and increase storage one step.
If this is believed widely, then why would people, with a choice, buy an iPod until May, when they could save $100, get extra storage, get color, and free photo abilities?
Then imagine this: ThinkSecret publishes the existence of a new product, called the iPod mini, which is half the size of the iPod and uses a 1" hard drive, four months before it's announced by Apple, and someone at Creative and someone at Sony read this and think, "Hey, we can do this!" and releases their product two weeks before Apple announces.
So tell me, why does the First Amendment apply, and why doesn't the UTSA apply in a situation like this?
GPL Deconstructed
But why do you think trade secret doesn't apply here?
If TS had published info and specs about the iPod mini four months in advance and Creative, Sony, and Dell all released similar products two weeks in advance, why don't you think that would qualify as a 'trade secret'?
It's a secret of the craft, the art of product design and manufacturing, because until it has been released, no one has done it before.
The same with the first iPod; no one had released something as small, as fast, or as usable, so it literally was unique.
Why, if Pepsi got Coke's secret formula and could manufacture Coke, and Creative obtained Apple's "secret formula" and could manufacture iPod minis, doesn't the similarities suggest that product information qualifies for trade secret status?
Of course it helps Apple that it's competition are all lame; years after the release of the iPod and mini, no competitor has yet figured out how to duplicate the "secret sauce" even though it's open and available to the public!
(Hint: Freely available Jukebox that doesn't suck. Simpler designs, less is more. Connect the two)
Creative has almost got the design right: Their new Zen Micros have a supremely clean design, but there's no software to download; I can't play with their music manager before I can buy a Zen, so I can't evaluate how the music organization works. Even worse, I know there exists software call NotMad to replace Creative's own software. That's how much they suck.
The same with the Archos Jukebox, in which someone has implemented their own firmware, called RockBox, to fix the deficiencies in the product!
GPL Deconstructed
Apple gets much better free publicity when the scoop comes via the cover of Time magazine, and that's something that Time is only interested in if they have the exclusive.
Non issue. Especially since we're dealing with a RUMOR site. People know that rumors are just that.
What you're saying is that this rumor site is trying to help people get a better deal, and that it shouldn't be allowed.
Then imagine this: ThinkSecret publishes the existence of a new product, called the iPod mini, which is half the size of the iPod and uses a 1" hard drive, four months before it's announced by Apple, and someone at Creative and someone at Sony read this and think, "Hey, we can do this!" and releases their product two weeks before Apple announces.
It's Apple's responsibility to keep their secrets inside of Apple. Be it by using confidentiality agreements, or outright payoffs. If someone violates a confidentiality agreement, Apple is free to make a civil claim for damages. But they don't have the right to use the force of the government to silence any press outlet. Had Nixon claimed that the Watergate break in was a trade secret should he have been able to force Woodward and Berstein to keep quiet?
So tell me, why does the First Amendment apply, and why doesn't the UTSA apply in a situation like this?
Because the Constitution is higher in authority than the USC.
The Congress, and the states by extension, have no ability to legislate the press.
It would be a violation of the Constitution for the UTSA to be used to silence any press outlet.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
I'm not disagreeing with anything except your initial assumption, which I ask you to explain.
How is Apple using Congress/the states to legislate the press? They aren't moving to silence anyone (except through bankruptcy if they hold that Nick somehow pay them damages for harm).
This very article we're talking about? It's about Apple subpoenas, which by definition is, "A command to a witness to appear and give testimony. "
How is that SILENCING? Apple's actions aren't to silence these folk, but to force them to talk. So if anything, Apple is violating their 4th Amendment Rights, because Apple tried to circumnavigate them by appealing to their ISPs to get their private emails!
GPL Deconstructed
We'd never go hungry.
I'm curious to see how Apple's stock will react after the split though. It can't go up forever.
SNACKS ARE AWESOME
Please keep in mind that the entire linked article is based on spin from a policy analyst for the EFF. Also contrary to what was reported in MacWorld and in the documents filed by the EFF, no email has been turned over to Apple.
To purchase it is not like spending money but rather it is an investment in the future in a blow against the empire
In a previous comment, someone postulated the idea that Apple did the lawsuits soley to drum up media buzz and would probably drop them altogether right after MacWorld.
I would tend to think that in light of recent events, that poster was dead-on accurate.
Doubt it. Your average person, and the average Mac user probably hasn't even heard about this.
People here oftern blab on about how doing X is going to affect the company's image. But the truth is, only a small group of people even read or follow these kinds of things.
As long as we're nitpicking analogies, let's nitpick analogies as a whole. Trying to convey a point with analogies is just stupid. You can never come up with an analogy that has the same set of conditions as your point. Just stick to the facts and it's much simpler.
Apple as a company has always sucked huge donkeyballs. I remember the late 80's and early 90's when they were still riding high on the high margins of the Macintosh. The arrogance of the company was almost unbearable. From the outside they seem humbler these days but my friends who still have to work with them the culture inside Apple is still very much the same.
Apple, great products but the company sucks. See this website for another example of Apple's actions.
http://tellonapple.org/
I'm still buying an iRiver player over an iPod. I find Steve Jobs extremely distasteful in general recently - he seems to have some sort of God complex way out of proportion to Apple's market share.
Apple dropped the plan to sue people because they got more than their money's worth of free promotion out of this. I think I'm going to try this model next time my company come out with something:
1. Create a really cool artsy product that works well.
2. Leak it to bloggers...
3. Wait for buzz to begin.
4. Threaten to sue bloggers to get major links from media outlets to bloggers.
5. Get some DCMA takedowns done and get more major press coverage. Links are now 1/2 gone so people really want to be in the know.
6. Release new product... PROFITs are 40% higher because of incredile reach of message.
6. Drop the matter entirely and make friends out of the Slashdot crowd. "Apple finally got it they are good people"
-- $G
The public seems to think that journalists get some extra First Amendment protection above and beyond everybody else. Actually, they do not. Journalists must use the same means as everyone else in obtaining their information. They do not get a "journalist" exception to breaking the law to get the information or publishing it.
It is easy for people (including the EFF) to jump behind the banner of "free speech" especially when the Plaintiff is a big corporation. But free speech is not an absolute right. It does not permit the public (including journalists) from inciting violence, publishing defamatory material or committing fraud to obtain and publish private information.
And let's note: this is really about stealing private information. If ThinkSecret, etc. had gotten this information through legal means, even a slip of the tongue by an Apple employee, that is something that can and should be protected by journalist privilege. But to induce, bribe or perform other illegal acts to obtain the information, especially information that is well-known in the industry to be considered "trade secrets", is criminal. I just don't think that there should be an exception for that behavior simply because your a journalist.
Only a tiny percentage of Apple's market is aware of these lawsuits, so it is unlikely that Apple is motivated by a desire to maintain its popularity with that little band of geeks and fanatics.
Apple brought the suits in pursuit of a business objective, and if/when it withdraws the suits, that will also be in pursuit of a business objective.
I really doubt Apple is worried about the few people who would not buy an Apple product simply because they don't like how it does business.
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
Even though Apple is worse from a user freedom point of view. Oh, sorry I'm not allowed to talk about freedom here either, am I, lest I get modded down, called a gnu and a hippie and informed that I don't wash.
Joe Llywelyn Griffith Blakesley
[This post is in the public domain (copyright-free) unless otherwise stated]
They produce an expensive, badly designed (although the design was actually quite good in its early days), proprietary (except Darwin) OS on expensive, badly-designed, proprietary hardware.
Instead of using ad hominem arguments against me, tell me what is wrong with my arguments and conclusions. Try comparing it with GNU/Linux on an Intel/IBM-compatible PC.
Joe Llywelyn Griffith Blakesley
[This post is in the public domain (copyright-free) unless otherwise stated]
Bullshit on all counts. Apple is far slower to release fixes for THE SAME SOFTWARE as Linux distros and the BSDs are. I'm talking Samba, OpenSSH, etc. Stability is a matter of decent hardware for all OSes in question here, but Apple's desktop is much newer and arguably less stable at this point.
And lastly, OpenBSD is arguably the most secure operating system for personal computers that exists and is in common usage today. The others don't hold a candle to it. 1 remote hole in 6 years, OS X isn't even that old and already boasts more than 1 remote exploit in that time.
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
Now they do their best to bring it about.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
Actually OS X's UI is the best one I've ever used. The only extra things I have on it are quicksilver (sort of like the equivalent of the windows run command) and Synergy so I can control my music without even looking at iTunes.
Apple may have proprietary elements but they are just as flexible when it comes to open formats and interacting with other platforms (unlike Microsoft).
As for customer lock-in, yeah you're locked in more because of the hardware (though you can still install linux on it), but since my mac is a laptop and laptops of any brand are usually not very mod-able it's not an issue for me. If you decide to switch platforms again, many companies (like Adobe I hear) will gladly let you trade in your current installer disc for another of a different platform for a small fee.
Apple's hardware is actually quite good and really isn't all that expensive. Their lowest end GPUs are at the very least, mid-class and game worthy. You generally don't buy Apple's RAM (even their tech support people have been known to say buy from somewhere else), and you surely can't be bitching about Apple not having 4Ghz CPUs, anybody posting here should know enough about CPU architecture to know that the clock speed is only one of many factors that determine how well a CPU will perform.
So exactly how is Apple not only as bad as Microsoft but "worse"?
I don't see Apple refusing to let their OS read and write any other file system besides their own or not allowing other OSes to write to their file systems. I don't see them making efforts to make their version of an office suite incompatible with everything else. At least as a mac user you have Apple, the Open Source community, and the Mac community willing to work on solutions to make user experience better. With Microsoft you really don't see as much of an effort to make computers more enjoyable to use.
"Locked-in" I may be but I've never reached a level of frustration with my mac that I ended up hitting it (Can't say the same for my machine running windows).
Regarding MS, we can give example after example, comparing the two copmany's evilness (but I'm going off-line now), but basically they're as bad as each other--except that Apple's business model is, at least fundametally, potentially worse than MS's because of the better lock-in and proprietary hardware.
Joe Llywelyn Griffith Blakesley
[This post is in the public domain (copyright-free) unless otherwise stated]
Judging by how you cherry-picked one line and missed my entire point I can't argue.
>Buyer Beware (or what ever the legal Latin term is)
That would be "Cum Grano Salis"
You can't talk about Wikipedia's flaws on Wikipedia
If Apple really wanted to hit these rumor sites where they hurt, they could take the money they're wasting with these lawsuits and hire some people to spread false rumors, leak faked images, send out wrong info, etc. Nothing does more damage to a rumors site that posting something that turns out to be BS. SpyMac completely bailed out of the rumors business after they posted all that bunk about the iWalk.
--Rick "If it isn't broken, take it apart and find out why."
But more proprietary is a bit easier to approach. If you mean more proprietary from a developer's point of view, I disagree but am not knowledgeable enough to argue amongst actual programmers. From the user's perspective, that one's easy to shoot down. I encounter very little of the roach-motel syndrome where my data checks in and doesn't check out. Most of that is through the use of either open or non-obfuscated file formats. Compare Mail.app to Outlook.exe, or
Well that one's pretty tough to do a direct comparison of, since while there is considerable overlap, they really do operate in two different market spaces. But the whole "Macs cost more than Wintel" canard is just that. Once you start comparing comprable machines, and not putting a dual G5 workstation up against one of those loss leader Dells with an underclocked Celeron, shared RAM and a motherboard made from recycled Mountain Dew bottle caps, the Mac comes out within a few percentage points either way, and that's before you factor in the longer service life or higher resale value.
Heh. Yeah, well. Most experts disagree, and most laypersons disagree, but once you eliminate those two groups, yeah, I suppose it's a tossup.
See roach motel above.
Umm, which manufacturer has better quality hardware than Apple? They've had some notoriously bad machines, mostly from the Gil Amelio era (affectionately known as Road Apples) such as the 6200, the PowerBook 5300 with the Thermonuclear Batteries, and a few others that I'm undoubtedly forgetting, but generally speaking Macs have a service life of ten years or more.
Yeah, IHBT, and I will now proceed to HAND. Serves me right for using that damned "see context" link to make sure you really deserved that -1, Flamebait mod. You may now resume trolling the Mac zealots.
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
You know, I never imagined that "-1, Funny" was actually possible. Kudos.
I am scientifically inaccurate.