Slashdot Mirror
France National Library Attacks Google Book Effort
An anonymous reader writes "The National Library of France is not happy with Google's effort to scan and integrate millions of books into its Web search. Jean-Noel Jeanneney, President of the library, wrote in an editorial that he is concerned Google's initiative to digitalize volumes at five leading libraries will reflect a unipolar worldview dominated by the English language and American culture. Jeanneney is pushing for European libraries to follow in Google's footsteps. Google said it was surprised by Jeanneney's remarks and noted, 'This is a first step for us; we can't do everything at once.'"
...they're prepared to scan books themselves and contribute them to the effort.
Ph-nglui mglw'nafh Gates M'dna wgah'nagl fhtagn.
You mean an english speaking company with english speaking employees is starting off with english literature?!
"It is better to risk sparing a guilty person than to condemn an innocent one." - Voltaire
Jeanneney's remarks are indeed anti-American. I don't see what makes him think that Google's efforts will "reflect a unipolar worldview dominated by the English language and American culture" other than the fact that it's being done by Americans. Indeed, he seems to like the idea itself but resent that it's being done by a US company.
Look, I know it's awfully trendy to be down on anything and everything American (and certainly there are things that legitimately cause concern), but frankly I'm more concerned that Jeanneney's anti-Americanism is affecting his scholarship than that Google's efforts (with the help of the libraries concerned and plan to be inclusive) is bad scholarship.
"...all the labours of the ages, all the devotion, all the inspiration, all the noonday brightness..." yada yada
"Google said it was surprised"
Nooo, it can talk, and it's got emotions... Run away!
My <1000 UID is with a hot chick
where does it say, that an american corporation like google, has to promote all works by all nations?
/rant
or another american corporation site (like slashdot) has to some how not be american centric?
Me thinks the world has gotten a little too attached to our finger pointing. If you DONT like the way an established business is doing things, DO THEM YOURSELF!
#include sig.h
I think the editorial would have been much more powerful and effective if it was written and presented in a language that people actually read. /ducks
Maybe Jeanneney wants it instead to be a unipolar worldview dominated by the French language and French culture. They still seem to think they're a world power for some reason.
If his country came up with Google, then sure it's a case, but sorry they didn't. The best thing he can do is ignore it and not use it.
Of course he cannot force France and the EU to stop using Google, as that would violate their rights of freedom, which is somewhat more flexible than the United State's Bill of Rights lately.
International language for business, yes, but French literature (and indeed German) is to be treasured and I, for one, agree that this should be acknowledged...
No English translation of the editorial?
If you'd have bothered to read the editorial, you'd find that "attack" is perhaps not the most appropriate word to use. Rather, M. Jeanneney calls on his own country to get its act together and do the same sort of thing as Google for the sake of keeping the Internet from becoming even more of a monoculture than it is today. What, exactly, is so bad about that?
He's not attacking Google. His main point is "look at what Google is doing--we should be doing the same thing, for the sake of preserving our culture!"
Can the inflammatory headline. It's designed to get a cheap rise out of simple-minded people, and it doesn't make Slashdot look good. There's nothing wrong with what this guy is saying--and if he's attacking anybody, it's his own countrymen, not Google.
Obliteracy: Words with explosions
Yes, naturally since France was mentioned in the headline, we have to cue the French bashing right away instead of looking at the real cultural issues being discussed.
The fact is - whether for right or wrong - France has long kept a strong interest in preserving their language. For a long time, American English attempted to do the same (that lasted up till the early/mid 1800s, on a less formal level - the rate of adoption of Native American words, for example, into English was incredibly slow during this time; British English by comparison changed far faster than American English). The French government, across administrations, has fought the adoption of imported words into their language.
This google initiative is - perhaps rightly, perhaps not - seen as a threat to maintaining the integrity of the French language. I think the approach called for was appropriate - instead of trying to force Google's hand, they instead called for European libraries to follow Google's lead.
"Lock and load, Brides of Christ!"
l33t 15 73h 0n1Y 14n9u493 7h47 m4773r5!
Guy asked me for a quarter for a cup of coffee. So I bit him.
While having a "unipolar" worldview is certainly a bad thing, this reaction seems silly. Google's indexing is, admittedly, of more benefit to Anglophones than Francophones, but it's detrimental to nobody. If the French government (or a French company) wants a similar index of French literature, they should make it themselves -- and I hope they do, since free access to information is never a bad thing. But to criticise Google for focusing on works in their native language located in libraries in their home country for a new project, however, is silly.
However, it looks like he's mostly not criticising Google but calling for a parallel effort from non-English sources. This, of course, is laudable.
(Side note: I'm generally on the side of the French in these little Franco-American spats. I saw a SUV that had a "Boycott France" bumper sticker today, and considered sticking a note under his wiper that said something to the effect of "Y'know, you have the French to thank for the philosophy of free speech that allows you to show that sticker without danger of your tires getting slashed...")
Ok, I'll bite this one for a change.
I don't expect any slashdotter to actually even care for the original article (yes, the one in French) but just the summary ... let alone try and translate it with babelfish.
Here's basically what this fellow French dude says : Google, an american company, is trying to digitalize books, let's team up as europeans to continue to bring our own litterature on the web as well.
Of course his first few lines sound very anti american, just as the first few posts talked about frogs and all :)
This is not as much towards google as it is towards the French government and other EU countries.
Si la vida me da palo, yo la voy a soportar Si la vida me da palo, yo la voy a espabilar
I speak french and read the editorial. The guy basically says that if the french governement doesnt invest more cash digitizing old books, english literature will totaly dominate the future of the net, even in the francosphere. He doesnt biatch about google at all.
If they were still small, they could do something like kill French language support for one day, replacing the franco page with a fake offer to "Upgrade your language" to either English, German or Chinese.
True, they have been general dicks when it comes to supporting America. They helped us out during the American revolution, and we helped them out during WWII, so I guess its somewhat even. It just disappoints me that all those snooty French hate Americans so much....
From my experience, they don't. They even wonder why we Americans think that the French hate us. They were really confused by the freedom-fries debacle. OTOH, the Parisians are different, and more difficult, but that's not just towards Americans.
One man's Funny is another man's Offtopic.
Wikipedia has over 450,000 English entries, over 200,000 German articles, and over 100,000 Japanese articles. France is in fourth with over 83,000 articles.
"We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and by the depth of our answers." Carl Sagan
International language for business, yes, but French literature (and indeed German) is to be treasured and I, for one, agree that this should be acknowledged...
Well then, feel free to acknowledge and treasure it - on your own dime and with your own effort.
But I figure if Google is footing the bill for this, they're entitled to treasure and acknowledge whatever they damn well please, or not.
is it more fair for french libraries to donate free labour to google's for-profit venture?
there is a point to be made here about the state of the internet in general. nearly half of the world's population are indian or chinese. they have cultures and histories longer and deeper than that of western europe and certainly north america. yet, on the web those cultures are all but invisible.
history, it seems, will no longer be "written by the victor" but "written by those with a broadband internet connection".
2 1337 4 u!
Given Google's efforts in other languages, it seems strange to me that they'd not continue their project in other languages.
As far as Google's efforts in other languages go, on behalf of the Klingon community, I would like to comment that I find Google's trivial attempt to court persons of Klingon extraction patronising and ultimately meaningless, in light of their apparent indifference to the immediate necessity for action with respect to the digitisation of the Klingon language corpus.
It is evident that Google favours and priveleges English language works over works of Klingon origin, and such bias will not go unnoted.
history, it seems, will no longer be "written by the victor" but "written by those with a broadband internet connection".
:)
May I refer you to: "American View on Korean Broadband Leadership"
Sorry, the irony of the way you said what you were saying (despite the fact that your core point is, infact, correct) was just too rich to pass up.
--- "End Of Line" - MCP
Well, to start off with, the name google is just too "English." Perhaps google should rename their service "Le Goog" in France...
I was there for four months once, and I met nothing but good people. Mind you, France is the most heavily touristed country in the world, so it stands to reason some might get sick of people walking up to them and blabbering in English. If you speak French, even a bit, it makes an enormous difference.
I think it may be because most searches for "Paris" are for the Hilton variety, rather then the city.
While there is a slight hint of counter-americanism in the article, I did not see any particular attack on google. It seems to me the article was simply warning that they need to get off their butts if they dont want the only publically available resources to be from english speaking perspective.
Google translated article (see:irony)
Im not here now... Im out KILLING pepperoni
France has long kept a strong interest in preserving their language.
I'm afraid that they take it to the point of being absolutely nazi.
An example: a friend of mine, an archaeologist, deals with archeological literature in a multitude of languages. The two most prevalent ones are English (for obvious reasons) and German (as germans have a surprisingly big representation in archaeology). Still, the international community has no problems talking to each other -- with a standing out exception, the french. French scientists are not allowed to write publications in any language other than French. Who cares if the bulk of potential attendees to a conference doesn't speak that language? The french government (and unfortunately, a sizeable part of the society) pursues interoperability as strongly as MicroSoft...
Another example: a few years ago, out of a sudden, the french government decreed that the word e-mail is to be forbidden and replaced with made-up "courriel". They are forcing their own citizens to be xenophobic!
On the other hand, English keeps borrowing words from other languages on a massive scale -- and this is one of reasons of its success.
The creatures outside looked from Alt-Right to Antifa; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
The whole point of the guy's editorial was: if English language works are the only ones that become searchable this way, that's going to make those works more influential. He's trying to get funding to do exactly what you're talking about -- granted, not to give to Google gratis.
I love how /. readers who didn't even bother reading the story are now accusing him of cultural bigotry, though. Very edifying -- though not in the way our posters intend. It's not like the guy is, oh, a librarian who actually considers what he's saying because he's trying to provoke a response in order to get funding, or anything. Must just be jealous of America. Yeah, that's it...
"Fundamentalism" isn't about divine morality. It's about human authority.
As much as I don't like defending France, the summary is misleading.
Mr. Jeanneney is not angry at Google. Actually he pointed out that the European Union (and France in particular) must follow Google's example and put on the Web the their own libraries so that it will be easy to access the works in not only english language, but also in french, italian, spanish and what not. I agree with him when he says that the preponderance of any single culture (in this case the Anglo-Saxon) is a BAD THING.
Actually the BNF already started with Gallica but there must be a common european effort.
And the people from Google should actually have read the editorial before answering questions.
No, you're making yourself look silly by not RTFA! What you're really complaining about is they way that the Slashdot headline presented his view, not what he said. Apparently as is quite common the headline and summary contains spin not present in the original source. This does not make him look silly, it makes you and slashdot's editors look silly.
Oh, they're just still miffed about that whole "french military victories" thing. ;-)
(Yes - I know how it works.)
France is still bitter about English being tagged over French as the international business language.
This is just backlash. Expect more.
Help me take back Slashdot. When did 'News for Nerds' become 'FUD and Conspiracy Theories for Extremist Nutjobs'?
oh la la!
French scientists are not allowed to write publications in any language other than French
First, I worked for a French scientific institute last year (I am French), and I wrote some publications in English (proof here).
Moreover, I read an article 2 days ago saying that, in France, a lot of mathematical publications are writting in French and in the other scientific domains in English... No law here!
the french government decreed that the word e-mail is to be forbidden and replaced with made-up "courriel"
Wrong. French government has no power over the langage... It's the "Academie Française" which is supposed to tell how to spell words, and which words are French. The government wants its administration to speak French, and so wants it to use the word "courriel" which was declared French by the Academie Française - so it's logical. What would be your reaction if the American government doesn't want its administration to speak English?
I had to say that the Academie Française is sometimes not really well understood by a lot of French people (me included)...
How about this: since the editorial is in French, I think it's only fitting to post the Google translation of the editorial
There is a slight subtelty here:
The first point, government sponsored research papers MUST be written in french first. The official papers must be in french, but any number of translations can be made afterward. It's usually the same with universities and such. Since most research are sponsored by govt or uni, well, most papers are written in french. You know, when a french speaking govt. sponsors a research, is it weird for them to ask that the results are in french, for the benefit of the french people? How would you like, as an american uni, to sponsor someone for a research and he would submit a paper in arabic?
The second point is similar. They said that government related communications must use "courriel" instead of "email". I'd say it's a good thing, official communications should use the correct vocabulary. Using "email" would be the same as using leet speak in official govt. communications for example.
French is firstly a litterary language, while english became a business/everyday language and lots most of its litterary roots. English is made to be interroperable. French will usually use french, latin or greek roots to "invent" new words instead of adopting a foreign word. This usually preserves the litterary properties of the language. That's the big difference. Yeah, they can be anal about it sometimes, but then, who isn't?
I think they're still bitter about the English long bow thing.
It's not offtopic, dumbass. It's orthogonal.
Ahem. Posts such as this are required by law to be first in French, then in English.
hawk
That meant *how* many weeks avoiding british food?
hawk
http://www.alexa.com/site/ds/top_sites?ts_mode=glo bal&lang=none
they are quite visible. In global top 20 web sites, 6 sites are chinese web sites.
It was exactly my first thought. This is coming from the same country that thought "email" wasn't French enough and actually created their own term for it that was more "distinctly French" (actual quote).
I don't care what your politics are or how you feel about Europe. A lot of France is full of stuck-up idiots. And Americans are criticized for thinking they're the center of the planet? Hell, we'll use words from any language as long as they stick. Oi.
Money-- and he has been. From an automatic translation (ironically via...) of the editorial:
Or, in other words: "Hey, morons! I've been working on this, but I can't match their efforts when I'm being outspent by this much!!!//Information does not want to be free; it wants to breed.
Look, I am American. I think we need to make more friends around the world, period. If you were a retired WWII vet, I can understand your hate for japanese, germans, french etc. Completely.
What I have a problem with is the huge population of Americans developing a hate toward other nations by default. Brainwashed by TV/media etc. Vice versa French citizens shouldn't have this hate by default.
I'm actually a dual citizen of both the US and France, and guess what? BOTH COUNTRIES ARE FULL OF STUCK UP IDIOTS! Get it through your head. The difference is that the American language is not regulated the same way the French language is. France has the so called "Academie Francaise" which defines the official french dictionary definitions and which terms are what. The fact that the people in that institution are old and old-fashioned (they don't even write using ball point pens, which I find preposterous, they use goose feathers instead) is just secondary to the importance of such institution. The fact is that France, because of the Academie Francaise, is preventing language degeneration, unlike in the US, where any word you want you can put in a dictionary and people will start to use it. Spelling is also an issue. French and English both have roots that go back very far, but English has evolved and degenerated so much that in fact there are now at least two english languages: American english and British english, with different spelling and grammar rules. French is still very much held together, and the ethymology of French words is easier to retrace, because in many cases the spelling still reflects the origin of a given word. Now, to answer your stupid post about French hating google, that's not even true. Afore-mentioned Academie Francaise has included "googler" as an official vocabulary verb with all it's declinations in all tenses in their official dictionary about three years ago. Also note that the reason I don't like jokes about French is because people in France always made jokes about Americans. I hate discrimination both ways, not just one way. I got my French classmates to not joke about Americans, I hope I can get my American classmates to not joke about French people. It's just a matter of respect.
---- I am certain of only one thing : I know nothing else.
What's so bad about creating a word in your language?
The English language is full of englicized foreign word.
I really don't get why the "email -> courriel" ("email" stands for "electronic mail" and "courriel" stands for "courrier electronique" -- same logic) example gets thrown around as if it was evidence of something really terrible.
Treehugger? Treehugger... Treehugger!
You do not have to. France does use Google and Jeanneney too. We do not hate Google and neither does he.
He simply points out that the effort led by Google, if is successfull, will once again be a powerfull tool to strengthen English (and US thinking) as the dominant cultural reference, and that this is a threat for all other cultures that imperils them a bit further.
He just calls for his European colleagues to join an effort to accept the challenge and match it in our European way, which does not always goes through private companies, although it often does. As far as I understand Google's reaction from the linked article, they do understand his point of view. I rather trust Google, but I understand what Jeanneney means and I approve his call.
How on earth does it come that any call for a non-american effort is immediately labeled as a threat to America? Why are so many Americans surprised when one states out that the disapearance of local cultures in the mainstream medias (TV, movies, Internet, scientific publications...), because they are overwhelmed by US might, is a pity, a loss to the entire humanity?
Fortunately, GwBush has just saved the French fries from oblivion. But French bashing continues unabated.
I am not Remy Mouton, unfortunately: http://remy.mouton.free.fr/art/
You constantly use the word degenerate.
Why do you and the French insist that languages are static and worthy of preservation?
You realize that all languages change throughout time, right?
By your logic, if a language changes in a given culture, then it's not evolving, but degenerating?
Can you take a wild guess as to why the French are viewed as being stuck up?
Professor: And this is my Universal Translator. Unfortunately, it only translates into an incomprehensible dead language.
Cubert: Hello.
Translator: Bonjour.
Professor: Crazy gibberish!
"There is no time, sir, at which ties do not matter," Jeeves, (Jeeves and the Impending Doom)
The fact is that France, because of the Academie Francaise, is preventing language degeneration
I think you misspelled evolution there. Had the Academie been in place for 10,000 years, frenchmen would still be grunting.
The first type of post argues that the author is just trying to motivate the French government to launch a digitization effort for French books. That's all fine and dandy folks, but this article is being, and should be, judged on the basis of its text, not the golden intent behind it. The author alleges, and this is almost a perfect translation, the threat of an American stranglehold on the world of ideas. The "money-shot" here is when the author wrote: "Voici que s'affirme le risque d'une domination écrasante de l'Amérique dans la définition de l'idée que les prochaines générations se feront du monde." I don't care what he is trying to accomplish -- that is anti-americanism, pure and simple.
The second type of posts have argued that the author did not attack Google's initiative at all. Bullshit. The people espousing this point of view either didn't read the original editorial, or can't understand French as well as they think. The author followed a very popular line of argument among the French chattering classes: that the U.S.A. has grown TOO powerful, and that English is a lever by which they jiggle the world. (In this analogy, business would be the fulcrum). "Hyper-pouvoir" is the word practically coined in Le Monde, France's leading daily periodical for the grad degree plus set, and the anti-American editorials have flown fast and furious for at least the last 20 years. How French intellectuals manage to avoid noticing that English is actually spoken in other parts of the world boggles the imagination. Of course, talk to the average French teen who doesn't belong to the radical left, and they have no idea what the fuss is about. Unfortunately, it's the intellectuals that govern, not the teens.
Long story short, an editorial that talks about Google's initiative as enhancing the U.S. "domination ecrasante" (sorry about the lack of accents) over ideas is an attack on the initiative, not "yellow journalism" as one poster put it. The motivation may be noble, but it comes off as bigotry, and it's dead wrong. Knowledge isn't a zero-sum game.
Regards,
Astolpho
P.S. The most popular historical figure in France is Napolean. Now how could that possibly be?
Two words: Freedom Fries ... I guess "French Fries" wasn't American enough so we had to make our own word.
Disclaimer: IAAFM (I am a Frenchman)
;) Thus they do have some power over the language used after all...
:)
French government has no power over the langage
Not quite right. The currently applied Toubon law forces e.g. every advertisement material using non-French language to provide a translated version somewhere in the ad (even as a footnote, that's why so many ads in France have footnotes
The government wants its administration to speak French, and so wants it to use the word "courriel" which was declared French by the Academie Française - so it's logical.
The word "courriel", though official French, is never used, either in administrative circles or other circles. That word is just too ugly. Everybody says "email" or "mail" like everyone else. The Académie Française can scream all they want, they won't change that one, just as they couldn't turn "bowling" into "boulodrome"or "week-end" into "fin de semaine".
Languages are doomed to evolve. French is a language that does not want to evolve very much, but it is hopeless. It is never a good thing to try and resist evolution
Karma cannot be described by words alone.
Um, France, parts of Canada, French Islands of which there are many.
Remember that France was a colonial power back in the day.
It's turtles all the way down.
The fact is that France, because of the Academie Francaise, is preventing language degeneration, unlike in the US, where any word you want you can put in a dictionary and people will start to use it.
Oh, please. Word definitions are determined by usage, not the other way around. People don't use words because they are in the dictionary -- words are in the dictionary because people use them. That is a universal constant of lanugages, and the only way to stop it is to have widespread buy-in from the people who use the language (as they do in Iceland, which puts France to shame when it comes to language preservation). That's far easier to do when the populace is confined to a small geographic area, as with the French spoken in France, as opposed to spread all over the world, as with the English that you are complaining about.
The Academie Francaise is an anachronism.
French is still very much held together, and the ethymology of French words is easier to retrace, because in many cases the spelling still reflects the origin of a given word.
Don't forget that the tiny island where the English language developed was constantly raided, invaded, and attacked by nearby armies speaking a wide range of foreign languages, not to mention that it was a permanent home to at least three other languages. With so many people speaking so many languages over such a small area, it is hardly surprising that English absorbed a wide range of foreign words.
Most important of these foreign languages, of course, is the French introduced after the Norman invasion in 1066. Since the ruling class spoke French after that event, English was debased and acquired quite a large number of French words as upwardly mobile members of the lower classes attempted to make themselves sound important. IIRC, French was the official language of the British Parliament until sometime in the 16th century. Aside from Germanic, French has had more influence on the English language than any other. (In fact, most of the influence usually attributed to Latin can be traced to French.)
In other words, the French did more than anybody to ensure a seismic shift in the English language. :-)
Also, don't forget that French is spoken outside of France, and few of those speakers care a whit what the Academie Francaise has to say about their language. Have a listen to Quebecois, Haitian, or Beninese French sometime, then try to tell me that French is not every bit as "degenerate" as English.
You're being sort of silly. French is most certainly not dying -- it is, if I recall correctly, the 11th most natively spoken language in the world, and ranks 5th or 6th when people who speak it as a second language are considered (primarily because this includes most of North Africa).
It isn't about language, it's about culture. It isn't that the French see no value in American culture, it's that they see value in their own culture. Furthermore, they most definitely are not keeping it static -- it continues to evolve in interesting ways.
I can't comment on Canada, as I've never lived there. But France is a very interesting country, and their policy of cultural protectionism is not "enforced". The truth is that the French people care deeply about their language, their culture, etc, and they support taking active steps to protect it from an increasingly ubiquitous American cultural influence.
Frankly, it shows. When you're in France, you can hear a lot of French music on the radio, there's a lot of French literature, and just a general feeling of pride in their culture. Across the border in Germany, radios play mostly American/English music, local bands often sing in English (despite being German) because it's considered "cool", and people seem a bit embarassed by things that are German. Sweden is even worse. My impression, as an outsider, is that French culture is vibrant, and the rest of Europe is being Americanized.
And I think this fact is not lost on the French, who understand that preventing American corporate interests (ie, the RIAA and MPAA, for example) from culturally subverting them by, say, forcing some percentage of music played on the radio to be in French, by promoting French films, etc, has had a net positive effect. Young people in France are much more "French", it seems -- in the sense that they are connected to the culture of their country -- than people from Germany or say, England are.
Which is not to say that other European countries are not considerably different from America or anything. Just that the French, as a people, care more about their culture, and take steps to protect it.
And it seems to be working.
Anyway, with respect to this article, the title was mistranslated.
I have read TFA, and the guy IN NO WAY attacks Google. He is simply worried about the availability of primarily European literature online and argues that an effort should be made by Europeans to digitise non English languages as well, because, as he says, American English dominates this field completely and offers a very American centric view of the world.
That's all he says. Nothing more and nothing less. It's not an attack on Google, and it's not an attack on English and it's not an attack on the US.
But that wouldn't stop the rabid morons from posting an inflammatory anti-French article, now would it.