Slashdot Mirror
France National Library Attacks Google Book Effort
An anonymous reader writes "The National Library of France is not happy with Google's effort to scan and integrate millions of books into its Web search. Jean-Noel Jeanneney, President of the library, wrote in an editorial that he is concerned Google's initiative to digitalize volumes at five leading libraries will reflect a unipolar worldview dominated by the English language and American culture. Jeanneney is pushing for European libraries to follow in Google's footsteps. Google said it was surprised by Jeanneney's remarks and noted, 'This is a first step for us; we can't do everything at once.'"
i just don't understand why
Hey, that's not fair! Rather than help you in your good idea, to make it fair, we'll bitch about it.
...they're prepared to scan books themselves and contribute them to the effort.
Ph-nglui mglw'nafh Gates M'dna wgah'nagl fhtagn.
Doesn't he realize that English is the only language that matters? :P
Can't argue with that concern.
Things in a rear mirror might be behind you
SO whats stopping him from volunteering and starting to scan/digitize other works?
Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos
...at the mortuary.
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
You mean an english speaking company with english speaking employees is starting off with english literature?!
"It is better to risk sparing a guilty person than to condemn an innocent one." - Voltaire
Jeanneney's remarks are indeed anti-American. I don't see what makes him think that Google's efforts will "reflect a unipolar worldview dominated by the English language and American culture" other than the fact that it's being done by Americans. Indeed, he seems to like the idea itself but resent that it's being done by a US company.
Look, I know it's awfully trendy to be down on anything and everything American (and certainly there are things that legitimately cause concern), but frankly I'm more concerned that Jeanneney's anti-Americanism is affecting his scholarship than that Google's efforts (with the help of the libraries concerned and plan to be inclusive) is bad scholarship.
"...all the labours of the ages, all the devotion, all the inspiration, all the noonday brightness..." yada yada
"Google said it was surprised"
Nooo, it can talk, and it's got emotions... Run away!
My <1000 UID is with a hot chick
that more books will be more accessible and possibly free. If he wants more French literature to be available either start a company to do this or make it more interesting to Google. Does he point out that French universities were jumping at the bit to have Google do work at their libraries? Sounds like a lot of lot of pointless bitching to me.
The link in the article is to the original French in Le Monde. Do I speak/read French? Yes. Do I want to read some French guy whine about French becoming a minority language on the Web (like it isn't in real life)? No, not really
With that record in book preservation, I doubt that they would be a very effective judge of what Google has to offer.
sulli
RTFJ.
where does it say, that an american corporation like google, has to promote all works by all nations?
/rant
or another american corporation site (like slashdot) has to some how not be american centric?
Me thinks the world has gotten a little too attached to our finger pointing. If you DONT like the way an established business is doing things, DO THEM YOURSELF!
#include sig.h
I think the editorial would have been much more powerful and effective if it was written and presented in a language that people actually read. /ducks
Maybe Jeanneney wants it instead to be a unipolar worldview dominated by the French language and French culture. They still seem to think they're a world power for some reason.
If his country came up with Google, then sure it's a case, but sorry they didn't. The best thing he can do is ignore it and not use it.
Of course he cannot force France and the EU to stop using Google, as that would violate their rights of freedom, which is somewhat more flexible than the United State's Bill of Rights lately.
International language for business, yes, but French literature (and indeed German) is to be treasured and I, for one, agree that this should be acknowledged...
No English translation of the editorial?
...that I have to start eating "freedom fries" again?
If you'd have bothered to read the editorial, you'd find that "attack" is perhaps not the most appropriate word to use. Rather, M. Jeanneney calls on his own country to get its act together and do the same sort of thing as Google for the sake of keeping the Internet from becoming even more of a monoculture than it is today. What, exactly, is so bad about that?
He's not attacking Google. His main point is "look at what Google is doing--we should be doing the same thing, for the sake of preserving our culture!"
Can the inflammatory headline. It's designed to get a cheap rise out of simple-minded people, and it doesn't make Slashdot look good. There's nothing wrong with what this guy is saying--and if he's attacking anybody, it's his own countrymen, not Google.
Obliteracy: Words with explosions
Interesting that Google's close to monopoly position is correctly identified. Perhaps this will convince those Google lovers who seem to forget that Google is a rapacious corporation intent on maximising shareholder return.
They do not provide a public service - search the net by hand instead!
Besides what is a French person doing complaining about things like this? The French are the biggest language snobs on the planet.
The French are the biggest language snobs on the planet.
Ironically, the word ironically is often used incorrectly.
i don't aglee with you. this is veli veli wrong. lere is no future for engilsh. the future of english is Hinglish and Chinglish. :-)
It seems to me that this kind of complaint is exactly what you'd expect from a language snob. The French are always upset when things are done first in English because they think that everything should be done in French first.
There's no point in questioning authority if you aren't going to listen to the answers.
Yes, naturally since France was mentioned in the headline, we have to cue the French bashing right away instead of looking at the real cultural issues being discussed.
The fact is - whether for right or wrong - France has long kept a strong interest in preserving their language. For a long time, American English attempted to do the same (that lasted up till the early/mid 1800s, on a less formal level - the rate of adoption of Native American words, for example, into English was incredibly slow during this time; British English by comparison changed far faster than American English). The French government, across administrations, has fought the adoption of imported words into their language.
This google initiative is - perhaps rightly, perhaps not - seen as a threat to maintaining the integrity of the French language. I think the approach called for was appropriate - instead of trying to force Google's hand, they instead called for European libraries to follow Google's lead.
"Lock and load, Brides of Christ!"
No, Christianity has nothing to do with it. Nor does any other religion. Seperation of church and state, freedom of religion, remember? This is not the Religious States of Jesusland.
It's because of America's true religion: money. The church of ATM.
While having a "unipolar" worldview is certainly a bad thing, this reaction seems silly. Google's indexing is, admittedly, of more benefit to Anglophones than Francophones, but it's detrimental to nobody. If the French government (or a French company) wants a similar index of French literature, they should make it themselves -- and I hope they do, since free access to information is never a bad thing. But to criticise Google for focusing on works in their native language located in libraries in their home country for a new project, however, is silly.
However, it looks like he's mostly not criticising Google but calling for a parallel effort from non-English sources. This, of course, is laudable.
(Side note: I'm generally on the side of the French in these little Franco-American spats. I saw a SUV that had a "Boycott France" bumper sticker today, and considered sticking a note under his wiper that said something to the effect of "Y'know, you have the French to thank for the philosophy of free speech that allows you to show that sticker without danger of your tires getting slashed...")
This is interesting on so many levels. First of all, non-French-speaking people are as unlikely to read any French books online as non-English-speakers are to read English books. Secondly, I can't believe that English and French literature come from entirely disparate worldviews that always disagree. Third, I strongly suspect that some of the books Google will be putting online will be translations of French literature. Presumably, many of those are as faithful as possible to the original.
The net will not be what we demand, but what we make it. Build it well.
Ok, I'll bite this one for a change.
I don't expect any slashdotter to actually even care for the original article (yes, the one in French) but just the summary ... let alone try and translate it with babelfish.
Here's basically what this fellow French dude says : Google, an american company, is trying to digitalize books, let's team up as europeans to continue to bring our own litterature on the web as well.
Of course his first few lines sound very anti american, just as the first few posts talked about frogs and all :)
This is not as much towards google as it is towards the French government and other EU countries.
Si la vida me da palo, yo la voy a soportar Si la vida me da palo, yo la voy a espabilar
I speak french and read the editorial. The guy basically says that if the french governement doesnt invest more cash digitizing old books, english literature will totaly dominate the future of the net, even in the francosphere. He doesnt biatch about google at all.
I think the effort should be to digitize older material first.
Firstly there's a lot of very valuable information which is in the public domain, which makes the legal issues go away.
Secondly, a lot of said information is in danger of being lost. The national libraries of our various countries hold one-of-a-kind books. One fire and they could be lost forever.
Publishers will probably have to start supplying the text of their books to google/amazon to keep their sales up.... some are doing it already.
This is a new one. RTFS.
You don't even have to be bothered to RTFA, it's in the fucking summary.
"Jeanneney is pushing for European libraries to follow in Google's footsteps."
Sounds an awful lot like he's trying to get people to scan books themselves, eh?
If they were still small, they could do something like kill French language support for one day, replacing the franco page with a fake offer to "Upgrade your language" to either English, German or Chinese.
True, they have been general dicks when it comes to supporting America. They helped us out during the American revolution, and we helped them out during WWII, so I guess its somewhat even. It just disappoints me that all those snooty French hate Americans so much....
From my experience, they don't. They even wonder why we Americans think that the French hate us. They were really confused by the freedom-fries debacle. OTOH, the Parisians are different, and more difficult, but that's not just towards Americans.
One man's Funny is another man's Offtopic.
Wikipedia has over 450,000 English entries, over 200,000 German articles, and over 100,000 Japanese articles. France is in fourth with over 83,000 articles.
"We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and by the depth of our answers." Carl Sagan
I think his concern should be addressed a serious concern about an on-going problem. As France continuous to become less and less influencial in world affairs and culture, we all lose. If the culture that once France is lost because of whatever reasons, we all lose a great deal. Voltare, Descartes, Napolean (a tryant but still a mover and shaker), The French Revolution, Lafeyette...it's a big list! His attitude deserves a great big wake up call, or a spanking. One or the other. Sillie Americon with yourre littlee boooks. Nowa go away ora I willa taunta yoou a seconda timea!
*click**beep**beep* Scotty, One to Mod up!
International language for business, yes, but French literature (and indeed German) is to be treasured and I, for one, agree that this should be acknowledged...
Well then, feel free to acknowledge and treasure it - on your own dime and with your own effort.
But I figure if Google is footing the bill for this, they're entitled to treasure and acknowledge whatever they damn well please, or not.
All discussion seems to be limited to childish and pathetic "they will surrender" jokes or other rants. Consider this:
If Google archives US libraries, there would be a bias towards english literature. I don't think many would disagree. And whatever is on google gets spread lightning fast, unlike (e.g. french) paper libraries. So the man has a point in pointing out this possible bias.
Oh yes, to all those idio^H^H^H^Hposters saying 'then do it yourself': A large profit driven company like Google would have the proper resources to do this. A librarian wouldn't. (I know, oversimplification).
Given Google's efforts in other languages, it seems strange to me that they'd not continue their project in other languages.
As far as Google's efforts in other languages go, on behalf of the Klingon community, I would like to comment that I find Google's trivial attempt to court persons of Klingon extraction patronising and ultimately meaningless, in light of their apparent indifference to the immediate necessity for action with respect to the digitisation of the Klingon language corpus.
It is evident that Google favours and priveleges English language works over works of Klingon origin, and such bias will not go unnoted.
Yes the dude makes himself look ridiculous. But I would like to oppose the "english is dominant" view. It is not the English language which dominates this planet, but a small subset of it. "Communication English", spoken all over the world, contains only a fraction of vocabulary and grammar of "the real thing". And people who can show you the way in Bejing most probably have read neither Shakespare nor any of the more modern classics. So starting to digitise English litterature is really not as "normal" as you might think. I am not French, but I can speak it. And I can tell you this: the French language has song lyrics which make John Lennon look like a guy from "star for an evening". Yup the frenchkies should get their act together and start digitising themselves, no Shakespare does not rule the world.
10 ?"Hello World" life was simple then
Google is company located in the United States. The fact that people around the world use it does not change the fact that Google is a US company. It is their choice what language they provide content in.
If a French company became the world wide source for information I see no reason why they should be attacked for providing content in anything but French. Don't attack google for being successful here. Instead why not try to help some business in your own borders.
I was there for four months once, and I met nothing but good people. Mind you, France is the most heavily touristed country in the world, so it stands to reason some might get sick of people walking up to them and blabbering in English. If you speak French, even a bit, it makes an enormous difference.
French to English translation of Jean-Christmas Jeanneney editorial
I read
No, France now STFU!
On a serious note, this is no worse than the gutenburg project trying to digitize books, it should be an effort undertaken to make books more easiliy accessable. Not everyone can lug around 20 books, why not use a portable device to read! It is progression, you saw the church throwing a fit when Gutenburg invented the printing press because they couldn't control people anymore. Same deal, hundreds of years later.
While there is a slight hint of counter-americanism in the article, I did not see any particular attack on google. It seems to me the article was simply warning that they need to get off their butts if they dont want the only publically available resources to be from english speaking perspective.
Google translated article (see:irony)
Im not here now... Im out KILLING pepperoni
France has long kept a strong interest in preserving their language.
I'm afraid that they take it to the point of being absolutely nazi.
An example: a friend of mine, an archaeologist, deals with archeological literature in a multitude of languages. The two most prevalent ones are English (for obvious reasons) and German (as germans have a surprisingly big representation in archaeology). Still, the international community has no problems talking to each other -- with a standing out exception, the french. French scientists are not allowed to write publications in any language other than French. Who cares if the bulk of potential attendees to a conference doesn't speak that language? The french government (and unfortunately, a sizeable part of the society) pursues interoperability as strongly as MicroSoft...
Another example: a few years ago, out of a sudden, the french government decreed that the word e-mail is to be forbidden and replaced with made-up "courriel". They are forcing their own citizens to be xenophobic!
On the other hand, English keeps borrowing words from other languages on a massive scale -- and this is one of reasons of its success.
The creatures outside looked from Alt-Right to Antifa; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
The whole point of the guy's editorial was: if English language works are the only ones that become searchable this way, that's going to make those works more influential. He's trying to get funding to do exactly what you're talking about -- granted, not to give to Google gratis.
I love how /. readers who didn't even bother reading the story are now accusing him of cultural bigotry, though. Very edifying -- though not in the way our posters intend. It's not like the guy is, oh, a librarian who actually considers what he's saying because he's trying to provoke a response in order to get funding, or anything. Must just be jealous of America. Yeah, that's it...
"Fundamentalism" isn't about divine morality. It's about human authority.
As much as I don't like defending France, the summary is misleading.
Mr. Jeanneney is not angry at Google. Actually he pointed out that the European Union (and France in particular) must follow Google's example and put on the Web the their own libraries so that it will be easy to access the works in not only english language, but also in french, italian, spanish and what not. I agree with him when he says that the preponderance of any single culture (in this case the Anglo-Saxon) is a BAD THING.
Actually the BNF already started with Gallica but there must be a common european effort.
And the people from Google should actually have read the editorial before answering questions.
Oh, they're just still miffed about that whole "french military victories" thing. ;-)
(Yes - I know how it works.)
You would think if this guy wanted to be taken seriously by someone outside of France he would at least publish the editorial in English for god's sake.
oh la la!
French scientists are not allowed to write publications in any language other than French
First, I worked for a French scientific institute last year (I am French), and I wrote some publications in English (proof here).
Moreover, I read an article 2 days ago saying that, in France, a lot of mathematical publications are writting in French and in the other scientific domains in English... No law here!
the french government decreed that the word e-mail is to be forbidden and replaced with made-up "courriel"
Wrong. French government has no power over the langage... It's the "Academie Française" which is supposed to tell how to spell words, and which words are French. The government wants its administration to speak French, and so wants it to use the word "courriel" which was declared French by the Academie Française - so it's logical. What would be your reaction if the American government doesn't want its administration to speak English?
I had to say that the Academie Française is sometimes not really well understood by a lot of French people (me included)...
How about this: since the editorial is in French, I think it's only fitting to post the Google translation of the editorial
My own experience is a few years stale, but I'll echo this. Parisians do come off as brusque and cold, but I have a theory as to why this is.
When the city you live in is home to several million people and the population density hovers around 25,000 people per square mile, personal space becomes very, very valuable. To this end, you don't want to interact with each of the hundred-odd strangers you pass in the street on your daily commute; you'd be nodding, greeting, and interacting every step of the way. Now, once you actually 'break the ice' and start talking to somebody, they tend to be amazingly friendly and accomodating--it's just that most folks in Paris value their privacy and understand that it makes everybody's life a little easier if we're not all waving, gawking, and engaging strangers in small talk all the time. For what it's worth, it works--I could stand in a metro car literally packed with other Parisians and feel like I had my own little personal space. You really need that kind of thing in such close quarters--you'd go nuts otherwise.
Obliteracy: Words with explosions
There is a slight subtelty here:
The first point, government sponsored research papers MUST be written in french first. The official papers must be in french, but any number of translations can be made afterward. It's usually the same with universities and such. Since most research are sponsored by govt or uni, well, most papers are written in french. You know, when a french speaking govt. sponsors a research, is it weird for them to ask that the results are in french, for the benefit of the french people? How would you like, as an american uni, to sponsor someone for a research and he would submit a paper in arabic?
The second point is similar. They said that government related communications must use "courriel" instead of "email". I'd say it's a good thing, official communications should use the correct vocabulary. Using "email" would be the same as using leet speak in official govt. communications for example.
French is firstly a litterary language, while english became a business/everyday language and lots most of its litterary roots. English is made to be interroperable. French will usually use french, latin or greek roots to "invent" new words instead of adopting a foreign word. This usually preserves the litterary properties of the language. That's the big difference. Yeah, they can be anal about it sometimes, but then, who isn't?
J-N Jeanneney doesn't attack Google but want that Europe invest in a similar system to promote the european culture and political influence.
Ahem. Posts such as this are required by law to be first in French, then in English.
hawk
That meant *how* many weeks avoiding british food?
hawk
Here is the google english translation of the Frenchman's comments about google making english the homogenous language of the world
Slashdot, would a spell-checker for posting be too much to ask? It's not rocket science!
I'd say Quebecers are probably more 'french' in everyday life than the french. Just go to France, listen to people talk in the street. Then go to Quebec and do the same. You'll probably understand the French a lot more, in some place nearly every word is english. Ok, you probably won't understand because of the accent, but they still use lots english words, and mostly bastardize english words. The later is the worst. Parking, Footing, etc. It's not only the youth, just watch French TV, it's incredible how anglicized they are becoming. All the 'in' expression are bastardized english.
Quebecers understand that english is the business language, but in everyday life, they speak better french than the French themselves, although with their own slangs and all.
The 'american way' infiltrated France at the core, while in Quebec, people stood up to keep their own culture as the root, but adopted the rest. With the core(the youth) as it is today, France of tomorrow will probably be totally anglicized, while Quebec will fare better. By how much? I don't know, but there is a serious problem in France.
http://www.alexa.com/site/ds/top_sites?ts_mode=glo bal&lang=none
they are quite visible. In global top 20 web sites, 6 sites are chinese web sites.
If you'd read a translation of the librarian's editorial, that is precisely what he said. They *don't* have the sort of money that Google has for this task, and he wants to change that. That was the whole purpose of the editorial.
"Lock and load, Brides of Christ!"
Money-- and he has been. From an automatic translation (ironically via...) of the editorial:
Or, in other words: "Hey, morons! I've been working on this, but I can't match their efforts when I'm being outspent by this much!!!//Information does not want to be free; it wants to breed.
Look, I am American. I think we need to make more friends around the world, period. If you were a retired WWII vet, I can understand your hate for japanese, germans, french etc. Completely.
What I have a problem with is the huge population of Americans developing a hate toward other nations by default. Brainwashed by TV/media etc. Vice versa French citizens shouldn't have this hate by default.
...that French is dying. A living language doesn't get prickly or defensive, and it does not try to impose linguistic purity the way the Acadamie Francais does. Culture grows synthetically, by combining influences from various sources. Purity is death. Look at the wonderful things that the Nazis did for Germany in the name of cultural purity--they killed the culture of Beethoven, Mozart, Goethe, and Kant. If you want to preserve something, you pickle it in formaldehyde--but first, you have to kill it.
If French has a word that English doesn't have, English speakers will happily pick it up, and it will soon appear in the Oxford English dictionary. The same is not true for French. And if the French are bad in this regard, the Quebecois are 10 times worse. The dream of the separatists in Quebec is a country inhabited only by "pur laine", descendants of the original French settlers. In fact, Quebec's cultural influence peaked in the late 60's, when Montreal was New Orleans North, a mixture of races, religions, languages, and traditions. After that the separtists started driving out, in Jacques Parizeau's words, "money and the ethnic vote."
If the French and the Quebecois get their wish, they may preserve their culture, but it will be dead, and no one will care.
Look, I am American. I think we need to make more friends around the world, period. If you were a retired WWII vet, I can understand your hate for japanese, germans, french etc. Completely.
Uhm, one of those three is not like the others...
"To be absolutely certain about something, one must know everything or nothing about it." -- Olin Miller
And when a company owned and operated by Americans far surpasses anything the "superior" European continent can produce, it must really be gauling... er, galling.
;-)
Says the American, whose national Trade Balance is totally pwned by China.
SCO employee? Check out the bounty
Professor: And this is my Universal Translator. Unfortunately, it only translates into an incomprehensible dead language.
Cubert: Hello.
Translator: Bonjour.
Professor: Crazy gibberish!
"There is no time, sir, at which ties do not matter," Jeeves, (Jeeves and the Impending Doom)
The first type of post argues that the author is just trying to motivate the French government to launch a digitization effort for French books. That's all fine and dandy folks, but this article is being, and should be, judged on the basis of its text, not the golden intent behind it. The author alleges, and this is almost a perfect translation, the threat of an American stranglehold on the world of ideas. The "money-shot" here is when the author wrote: "Voici que s'affirme le risque d'une domination écrasante de l'Amérique dans la définition de l'idée que les prochaines générations se feront du monde." I don't care what he is trying to accomplish -- that is anti-americanism, pure and simple.
The second type of posts have argued that the author did not attack Google's initiative at all. Bullshit. The people espousing this point of view either didn't read the original editorial, or can't understand French as well as they think. The author followed a very popular line of argument among the French chattering classes: that the U.S.A. has grown TOO powerful, and that English is a lever by which they jiggle the world. (In this analogy, business would be the fulcrum). "Hyper-pouvoir" is the word practically coined in Le Monde, France's leading daily periodical for the grad degree plus set, and the anti-American editorials have flown fast and furious for at least the last 20 years. How French intellectuals manage to avoid noticing that English is actually spoken in other parts of the world boggles the imagination. Of course, talk to the average French teen who doesn't belong to the radical left, and they have no idea what the fuss is about. Unfortunately, it's the intellectuals that govern, not the teens.
Long story short, an editorial that talks about Google's initiative as enhancing the U.S. "domination ecrasante" (sorry about the lack of accents) over ideas is an attack on the initiative, not "yellow journalism" as one poster put it. The motivation may be noble, but it comes off as bigotry, and it's dead wrong. Knowledge isn't a zero-sum game.
Regards,
Astolpho
P.S. The most popular historical figure in France is Napolean. Now how could that possibly be?
Well that was my point, they don't have the resourses but they complain and complain. They tried legal action against Google before for not blocking certain websites in France. And now more complaining. They say that Google will index more English text and thus end up greatly influencing the public with their bias. Well that is what the news agencies, government and big companies have been doing forever because they are bigger and have more resources.
I am sure Google will not stop any French company or thier goverment from creating their own search engine and index all the books they want. If they end up making a better product even I'll start using thier engine instead of Google. And the money can come from the department they have for preserving the purity of French culture and language by banning the use of words like 'e-mail'. The bottom line is if they really care about it, they'll do something, but it seems that they just want to complain some more.
Google is an American comapany. If France doesn't like it, they can create their own database. Boo f-ing hoo.
Yoda of Borg am I! Assimilated shall you be! Futile resistance is, hmm?
Disclaimer: IAAFM (I am a Frenchman)
;) Thus they do have some power over the language used after all...
:)
French government has no power over the langage
Not quite right. The currently applied Toubon law forces e.g. every advertisement material using non-French language to provide a translated version somewhere in the ad (even as a footnote, that's why so many ads in France have footnotes
The government wants its administration to speak French, and so wants it to use the word "courriel" which was declared French by the Academie Française - so it's logical.
The word "courriel", though official French, is never used, either in administrative circles or other circles. That word is just too ugly. Everybody says "email" or "mail" like everyone else. The Académie Française can scream all they want, they won't change that one, just as they couldn't turn "bowling" into "boulodrome"or "week-end" into "fin de semaine".
Languages are doomed to evolve. French is a language that does not want to evolve very much, but it is hopeless. It is never a good thing to try and resist evolution
Karma cannot be described by words alone.
Never heard of the Vichy French government?
it's degenerating mostly now because people coming into college are losing grammar and spelling skills. I don't know if it's just because they think it's cool or what, but they're losing all the fundamentals that were left of the english language before the internet boom. I'm still in college, and not an english major, but even some of my professors get annoyed at my pickiness with spelling. There's a reason words are spelled a certain way, and I don't see why people think they can ignore the rules. They do respect the road's rules, no? Why not the same with language?
There's a reason for rules to exist, and people ignoring rules is a problem.
I've never read Chaucer, but I do know for a fact that France is the only country to have such an institution.
---- I am certain of only one thing : I know nothing else.
And the current Bush Administration propagandists have always made sure to refer to the Iraqi resistence as "insurgents" or "terrorists" or "rebels" rather than "resistence", which would have invoked memories of the bravery of the French Resistence as well as implying that Americans (er, excuse me, the Coalition of the Willing) were the invading Bad Guys.
On the other hand, "CheeseEating Surrender Monkeys" was quite definitely a joke.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
> they tried legal action
No, "they" did not. The person in this context is not the same entity that tried legal action against Google, and has absolutely no affiliation. Please stop tying together unrelated parties in a mythical conspiracy web because of their nationality.
> They say that Google will index more English text
It will.
> and thus end up greatly influencing the public
Possibly. However, the solution proposed is *not* to stop google; it's to do the same themselves. This is akin to someone saying "Hey, the Soviets are trying to launch a man into space! Lets launch one first!", and people interpreting it as "Hey, the Soviets are trying to launch a man into space! Lets bomb them on the launch pad!".
> I am sure Google will not stop any French company or thier government
> from creating their own serach engine and index all the books they want
1) Nobody is suggesting that they will
2) They already have a search engine. It is underfunded, and hence the editorial encouraging more funding.
> banning the use of words like 'e-mail'
Only from government documents. Citizens can call it "couriel", "email", or even "wizzlewozzle" if they want.
> they just want to complain some more
Says the pot to the kettle.
"Lock and load, Brides of Christ!"
The French where once the most powerful nation in the world (or aleast they thought or still think so). It went a little bit to their heads and they still feel like they are the center of the universe.
The Egos of country does not decrease at the same rate as their world influence.
The same will happen the United States. Right now the Americans have a Big Ego. Everything has to be their way because they think it is the most correct. In a 100 years when their economy is in the toilet and India or China is center stage the Americans will still have a big ego and will be bitching about same things the French are now. It happen to all nations and when they fall it can be particularly sad how they act.
the French are complaining about now.
My Sig indicates the end of the comment I posted.
English has evolved and degenerated so much that in fact there are now at least two english languages: American english and British english, with different spelling and grammar rules.
Yeah, and I live in the Philippines, which seems to have its own dialect of English. They tend to treat mass nouns as count nouns, for example. They "take some medicines" or have "a bowl of fruits."
But there's a simple solution to all of this. Microsoft. Yes, Microsoft.
Most users of MS Word install the program with default US English, so they get corrected when using British English. A fair number don't know what's going on, and just think "Oh, so I was spelling it wrong all these years." Combine that with American movies and foreign call centers which service mostly Americans and standardize to American English, typically, and you'll see that this fragmentation problem is in the proces of reversing itself.
I've never been a fan of cultural hegemony, especially with folks as nice and friendly as the Brits, but I have to admit, it feels good.
Anyways, languages are natural. They're supposed to evolve and adapt. Degeneration is far too perjorative a word for the situation. It implies a lack of moral fiber which is simply irrelevant. Say what you will about the 'degeneration' of the English language, but I can understand Brits just fine. The problem that you present is a straw man with no real consequences.
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It's the end of my comment as I know it and I feel fine.
OMG Dud! Lyten up! Eye Speil prefeclly phyn!
Standard German is also decided from on high, but not necessarily as efficiently as in France.
flossie
Write now. Defend liberty
French scientists are not allowed to write publications in any language other than French
I beg your pardon ??
It is true that French scientists - who happen to have a civil servant status - are often required to produce reports in French. I don't know where you got the idea that they are forbidden from publishing anything in English.
Another example: a few years ago, out of a sudden, the french government decreed that the word e-mail is to be forbidden and replaced with made-up "courriel".
Yeah, Heaven forbid that people speaking a different language try to create new words for new things instead of just adopting English ones !
BTW, the word "courriel" was coined by the Quebecois.
Thomas-
This isn't France attacking Google - it's France attacking Europe, for letting an American company do all the work, and leaving Europe behind. That's called "competition", which we usually expect from Germany instead. France is just so stereotyped as dissing American supremacy that everyone's misinterpreting it as a personal attack on them. And, strangely, it's almost always worth considering whether a French attack is relevant - because when it is, it's very personal.
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make install -not war
France is a wonderful place to visit if you speak at least a little French. I've been there a couple of times and generally been treated quite well, even by their notoriously prickly waiters. I love the habit they have of never bringing the check until you ask for it. Of course if you don't make an effort to fit in at least a little bit they will react negatively.
I think their attitude is that they are really good friends with us on the whole, and that gives them the right and duty to criticize us.
After 9.11.01 Le Monde led with an editorial 'Nous Sommes Tous Americans'. I think that said a lot about the real ties between France and the US.
Of course like in any country there are chauvanistic idiots, but you have to realize that is a reaction to some unfortunate recent political issues rather than any sort of long term emnity.
One thing that I think bites Americans in the ass is the assumption that French culture is relatively similar to American culture. There is, in fact, a relatively large cultural difference, especially with respect to politeness norms.
The French speak very directly and do not appreciate undue familiarity from people they don't know. French, like most European languages other than English, has an active T-V distinction (they have two forms of you, one of which is formal) and they rely heavily on this and other niceties in speech to indicate politeness. Americans, and to a lesser extent the English, depend greatly on tone and facial features to communicate politeness. That is, Americans think they're being polite if they're being friendly.
I'll give you a concrete example. I was in at CDG airport in Paris and I needed to fill out an immigration form. I realized that I didn't have a pen. I went over to the airport security office that was right there and asked if I might borrow one. What I said was exactly what I might say in English, although I used vous (polite) rather than tu (impolite). I said, "Excuse me, but do you have a pen I might use?" I said it with a smile and in a friendly way.
The lady responded, very curtly, also with vous: "Sir, you might consider saying please." She was older than I was. I realized that I had been away from France too long; I had committed a cultural faux pas. To an American, her response was rude. In France, a woman the age of my mother (who works with the police to boot) chastising me for my lack of politesse is absolutely kosher, and I was in the wrong. But had I been more American, I would have certainly bristled at her perceived rudeness. Instead, I appologized, said please, and got the pen.
It's important to realize that neither way of interfacing with people is wrong, per se. Rather, it's a question of norms. The problem is that the French care about different things than Americans do. They care a lot less about your tone and whether you smile or not, and a lot more about whether you address them correctly (Monsieur, Madame, never a first name), greet them properly when you meet them, use vous where appropriate, etc.
It's especially important if you're dealing with people older than yourself. People your own age are likely to be much more friendly and relaxed, adding to the confusion -- age is a big factor in determining how polite you need to be.
If you think France is bad, try Japan, or even worse, Korea.
Unfortunately the opinion piece was written in French, so no one will ever know for certain.
I have read TFA, and the guy IN NO WAY attacks Google. He is simply worried about the availability of primarily European literature online and argues that an effort should be made by Europeans to digitise non English languages as well, because, as he says, American English dominates this field completely and offers a very American centric view of the world.
That's all he says. Nothing more and nothing less. It's not an attack on Google, and it's not an attack on English and it's not an attack on the US.
But that wouldn't stop the rabid morons from posting an inflammatory anti-French article, now would it.
You're thinking of mutation, I'm afraid.
SIERRA TANGO FOXTROT UNIFORM