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EU Commission Declines Patent Debate Restart

maxkueng writes "I just recieved an email from NoSoftwarePatents.com. They say: 'The EU Commission, under the leadership of someone who previously failed as Portuguese prime minister and as per the suggestion of a Microsoft puppet, has decided to decline the European Parliament's request for restarting the process on the software patent directive.' More can be read on Florian Mueller's Forum post."

367 comments

  1. a Microsoft puppet!? by Prophetic_Truth · · Score: 0, Redundant

    holy snikeys

    --
    time is a perception of a being's consciousness
    time is your 6th sense, the wierd ones are 7+
    1. Re:a Microsoft puppet!? by MoriaOrc · · Score: 1

      I don't think it'd be that hard to make, all you need is a paper clip and a two of those plastic bouncy eyes. And maybe some string...

      Oh! and don't forget the annoying dialogue bubbles.

    2. Re:a Microsoft puppet!? by Stanistani · · Score: 4, Funny

      >as per the suggestion of a M... ...uppet
      Fozzie Bear is a Lobbyist!
      Bork Bork Bork

    3. Re:a Microsoft puppet!? by slipnslidemaster · · Score: 0

      OTT:



      How the hell can a FIRST post be REDUNDANT!??!?

      --


      "What the hell is an aluminum falcon?"
  2. You really have to admire their loyalty. by elhondo · · Score: 5, Funny

    Once they're bought, they stay bought.

    1. Re:You really have to admire their loyalty. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      This is Europe not the US. European political figures don't fall victim to the same shortcomings that American ones do. They can't be bought. They are superior in every way, go take your worthless sentiments to some other message board.

    2. Re:You really have to admire their loyalty. by MightyMartian · · Score: 1, Funny

      > This is Europe not the US. European political
      > figures don't fall victim to the same shortcomings
      > that American ones do. They can't be bought. They
      > are superior in every way, go take your worthless
      > sentiments to some other message board.

      Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    3. Re:You really have to admire their loyalty. by AceCaseOR · · Score: 1

      Mod Parent even more funny. This is the best laugh I've had all week!

      --
      Zagreus sits inside your head, Zagreus lives among the dead, Zagreus sees you in your bed and eats you in your sleep.
    4. Re:You really have to admire their loyalty. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A repost gets modded higher than the original, parent post. Gotta love slashdot.

    5. Re:You really have to admire their loyalty. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And they use Gentoo.

    6. Re:You really have to admire their loyalty. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is a sarcastic remark I presume?

    7. Re:You really have to admire their loyalty. by Dasch · · Score: 1

      *cough* Berlusconi!

    8. Re:You really have to admire their loyalty. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      I'm portuguese and this man Durão Barroso as the EP is in no condition to represent Europe as President. He is an enormous disgrace. He left his country in political and financial shambles, he ran away from responsabilities and left all this in a tremendous caos. The reigns of power were inherited to a meager selfish brat of a man which caused the fall of the parliament by the President, something that is legal by our Constitution but never enforced in any way.

      This man as EP is a selfish egotistical sell out to USA lobbies in the worst kind possible. I wish we had French or German presidency in the EU again.

      I wouldnt get this guy employed in a coal factory even.

      My 2 cents.

    9. Re:You really have to admire their loyalty. by ContraBass · · Score: 1

      I also feel ashamed...
      And they come talking about an European Constitution...

      Can't this mess be stopped??

  3. A slap in the face... by c0l0 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's a sad day for those who believe democratic ideals were still governing politicians actions in the EU. A really sad day.

    --
    :%s/Open Source/Free Software/g

    YTARY!
    1. Re:A slap in the face... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I've often heard people question whether USA really is a democracy or it really is a plutocracy. Now we can start asking the same question about the EU. ... and I think the Commission have already answered.

    2. Re:A slap in the face... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sorry, which order were you considering those questions? While the EU hasn't been around as long, questions have always remained about its democratic properties and of the member states going back forever. Then came the US and its problems.

    3. Re:A slap in the face... by FyRE666 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think that anyone who still believed the EU was some sort of democrasy after all the evidence to the contrary over the past 10 years or more is an idiot.

      You'll not find a higher concentration of villains, hypocrites and scoundrels than in the "power centre" of the EU. The main lure for the type of people who work there is purely financial. It's a trough of our money that these pigs stuff their wrinkled faces into whenever they can be bothered to go to work (seldom in most cases). The level of corruption is well documented, but (unsurprisingly) not so well investigated. These people are by and large, self serving, unelected scum who would be utterly unemployable anywhere else.

      I find it disgusting that those gin soaked, lying, useless pigs are being paid by corporations to make decisions that affect the futures of billions of people... Including me... One bomb in Brussels would end far more problems than the current campaigns in Iraq (and wherever the US decides to go off killing people next).

    4. Re:A slap in the face... by 91degrees · · Score: 1

      Hmmm...

      I'm not sure whether anyone really still believed that. The few that did probably still do, and will do whatever happens.

    5. Re:A slap in the face... by ThisIsFred · · Score: 3, Insightful
      You'll not find a higher concentration of villains, hypocrites and scoundrels than in the "power centre" of the EU.
      Why did I think of Alec Guiness when I read this? It is worth noting, though, that this should be a lesson to those who propose the solution to everything is a government fix. There is something very, very wrong with consolidating that much power in the hands of the few. You can argue that corporate interests should be curtailed, but it's a hell of a lot worse when the government is granted power to curtail. As you can clearly see, the two may end up on the same side.

      One bomb in Brussels would end far more problems than the current campaigns in Iraq
      I seriously doubt it. The positions will be filled in short order, and the chicanery will continue unabated. I propose that the people strip their governments of the power to regulate patents. There is a strong argument in favor: In effect, patent restricitions are government regulation, and if the EU member nations are looking to create economic growth, the last thing they need is more regulation. Or perhaps they're only looking for economic growth in their own wallets.
      --
      Fred

      "A fool and his freedom are soon parted"
      -RMS
    6. Re:A slap in the face... by mrchaotica · · Score: 1
      You'll not find a higher concentration of villains, hypocrites and scoundrels than in the "power centre" of the EU. The main lure for the type of people who work there is purely financial.
      Don't you mean "You'll never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy?"

      And anyway, I think we've got you beat -- we've got DC, after all!
      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    7. Re:A slap in the face... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And anyway, I think we've got you beat -- we've got DC, after all!

      The EU bureaucracy makes Washington DC look like a bastion of penny-pinching libertarians.

    8. Re:A slap in the face... by arodland · · Score: 0, Troll

      People who question whether the USA is a democracy are morons. The US isn't a democracy, and has never claimed to be.

    9. Re:A slap in the face... by cofaboy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Your thinking Alec Guiness due to John Le Carre an the smiley spy series. Our "representatives" are as twisted as the people in the books.

      I have to agree one bomb is not enough, but there is more than one bomb.

      I really do fear that your last sentance says it all, the size of hier wallets is the only thing that is important.

      --
      In the end, It's all bovine dung you know
    10. Re:A slap in the face... by cofaboy · · Score: 1

      Sorry alcohol;)
      John Le Carre and the smiley

      size of thier wallets

      Any other slepling mistakes are deliberate!

      --
      In the end, It's all bovine dung you know
    11. Re:A slap in the face... by onash · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Whoah! That is a very naive opinion on the EU.

      I am very grateful to the EU as it is tying together all the countries in the continent that has suffered the most from wars in the last century. By making all the countries depend on each other in trade, none of them will ever think of going to war against each other again.

      Now with the addition of eastern Europe, the EU can help the poorer countries of Europe create better living situation for their citizens.. that alone will make things so much easier for Europe's future.

      Your "logic" sounds like the FUD that anti-everything use on any government or international organization they don't like these days. It is just not right.. Criticism is good, but bullshit just makes things worse.

    12. Re:A slap in the face... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ya, damn that evil United States. Iraq was so much better off with good old elected Hussein in office.

      As the EU slips more and more into tyranny the US may not seems like such a bad place.

    13. Re:A slap in the face... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      THE EU COMMISSION IS UNELECTED. This in and of itself is enough to damn it. If you smell bullshit it is only because your head is buried in it.

    14. Re:A slap in the face... by onash · · Score: 1

      why? Countries in Europe don't vote for their ministers, they just vote for their political party and the prime minister selects its cabinet. Does that damn the ministers?

      This is exactly the same! Even though we didn't vote for each commissioner they are chosen as our representatives by the government. And the president of the EU-Commission is selected by the people we vote to the EU-Parliament.

    15. Re:A slap in the face... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      You can argue that corporate interests should be curtailed, but it's a hell of a lot worse when the government is granted power to curtail.

      Get real. Whether this power is held by governmental hands, or allowed by government to reside in a few corporate "free market" hands, the effect is the same.

      It ends up being a positive feedback loop, aka "positive network effect". Big corporations make political contributions (sorry, not the corporations. The usual method is for some of the corporate officers to make a PAC. Then, through some other arm of the corporation, donations are made to that arm of the corporation, which gives $ to the PAC, which can now give the corporate money (successfully laundered, of course) to the RNC or DNC, or Council of Ministers, as is in the EU.

      We know what the worst-case scenario for a corrupt government. Eventually it's overthrown.

      But how does one overthrow Microsoft? It can't be done. If the US tried to do this, Microsoft would of course have enough time to "move" their corporation to Bermuda, Sea-Link, Ireland, Bangalore, wherever suits them best. Microsoft USA just becomes an empty shell at that point.

      When Open Source is outlawed, only criminals will use Open Source.

    16. Re:A slap in the face... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which moron voted that idiot insightful?

    17. Re:A slap in the face... by jokari · · Score: 1

      You mist be British...

      Just for you concern: there around 1-2 million other people living in and around Brussels so throwing a bomb might seem like a good UK/US-type solution after all.

    18. Re:A slap in the face... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sure all three of them are really sad.

    19. Re:A slap in the face... by cerberusss · · Score: 1
      The main lure for the type of people who work there [EU] is purely financial

      Are you kidding?? They're in there for the meat! The whole place is crawling with hot chicks, waiting to be harassed!!

      --
      8 of 13 people found this answer helpful. Did you?
    20. Re:A slap in the face... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's a sad day for those who believe democratic ideals were still governing politicians actions in the EU. A really sad day.

      Maybe to you. But maybe the EU knows what they're doing and patents are a good thing, just as Thomas Jefferson did in the original constitution. It's just a sad day for those who don't value intellectual property.

    21. Re:A slap in the face... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      THE EU COMMISSION IS UNELECTED. This in and of itself is enough to damn it.

      Yeah, but the people who have chosen the comission (member state governments), the people who have approved the set of comissioners (the european parliament) and the people who can fire the whole parliament any time (the EP again) are all elected.

      BTW, why americans claim choosing their president as a democratic event, since the people who actually choose him/her (the electoral college) are not elected by the people, and are not in any way accountable, and they don't have to decide beforehand who they choose? IIRC there have been incidents when electoral college member has not used his/her vote at all.

    22. Re:A slap in the face... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Now with the addition of eastern Europe, the EU can help the poorer countries of Europe create better living situation for their citizens.. that alone will make things so much easier for Europe's future.

      Whoah! That is a very naive opinion on the EU.

      Despite all the marketing efforts to paint the EU as a "let's all be happy together" community, the EU is an economic union with a single goal: to let the big companies make more money.

      That is the reason for its extension towards eastern europe. As a Siemens representative once said: this cuts the production costs by at least 20 % simply by threatening to move to eastern europe.

    23. Re:A slap in the face... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bush did spend some time recently trying to explain to Putin that he was "better" at doing democracy. ... He didn't define "better"

    24. Re:A slap in the face... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am very grateful to the EU as it is tying together all the countries in the continent that has suffered the most from wars in the last century.

      The EU and it's member states hasn't suffered the most from war - are you forgetting Africa and all the millions dying from starvation and famine caused by war?

    25. Re:A slap in the face... by irote · · Score: 1

      Oh shut up. People work in Brussels for all kinds of reasons. They're well paid, certainly, but that might be because they're meant to look after the interests of a continent of 400m people.

      People I know who work there do so because they believe in European unity. Some of the oldest people at the European Commission actually remember the destruction of the WWII and the ruins of Europe, and resolved back then to work to prevent it from ever happening again.

      Others do it because it's an interesting job. The European Commission is the Civil Service that deals with areas where the European Union has competence. If you're interested in competition law, environmental regulation, consumer protection or international trade, then there's no more interesting place to work in the world.

      As to whether the European Commission is corrupt... well, I suspect that it's less corrupt than many national governments. Firstly because the people are concerned are well paid - they don't need to accept bribes. Secondly, because their bosses (the European Commissioners) are appointed for five year terms and are thus free from the vagiaries of national politics. European officials can make decisions on the basis of technical expertise - they don't have to act to please their political masters' short-term ambitions.

      And they're not "villains, hypocrites and scoundrels" in Brussels. They're selected by an extremely competitive exam (several thousand applicants per place) open to all the citizens of the European Union. Many, many people want to work there, those that succeed are some of the most talented, competent people the continent has to offer. Getting a job at Google or McKinsey is peanuts by comparison.

      So before you start slagging of the European Commission, why don't you try and get a job there. Once you've failed, then you you'll at least have bitterness as an excuse for the crap you're talking.

      Best wishes,
      "Alle Menschen werden Brüder"

      Thomas

    26. Re:A slap in the face... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem is harsh.
      The nations (well, the people, voters... even politicians) of Europe failed to realize that there was a sudden change in importance of "supranational" government and it caught them unprepared. They don't pay enaugh attention neither to who do they delegate there, nor how they ensure loyality of these delegates to those who send them. I'm affraid that it is a sign of an even worse incompetence: decisionmakers have no clue, no vision what should be done on EU level, so anyone who fills the number (or even better: seems to think she knows what to do) is OK to go there. It is all too idealistic, based on delegates' presumed integrity (terms "Vunerability" and "Trusted Computing" come to mind). There you have a guy who was not trusted with position of prime minister in his own nation, having his say on matter of EU-wide (and even world-wide, considering our attention here) importance. It is like if your country would send just any anonymous to be your ambassador at UN and do as whatever she please. I guess they think that they can always block anything they don't like, down on national level but that is just not good enaugh in some cases. The EU political system is due to overhaul. More direct democracy is in order.

    27. Re:A slap in the face... by mbrx · · Score: 1
      Quite true, EU is not a democracy just as little as it is a country. Talking about EU as a homogenous state (yes, like USA!) is just plain wrong. EU is just a fancy collaboration between states just like the trade agreements between Mexico, USA and Canada, or perhaps like the UN, NATO etc.

      So why don't we talk about the african union not beeing a democracy? Or the WTO, or NATO, or UN or ....

    28. Re:A slap in the face... by -brazil- · · Score: 1

      Iraq was so much better off with good old elected Hussein in office.
      br>
      Wait a couple of years until the US troops withdraw from Iraq and the internal conflicts flare into one nasty civil war. The country WOULD have been better off with Hussein if that happens, which is quite likely. Frankly, the current situation with daily terrorist bombings already isn't much better.

      As the EU slips more and more into tyranny the US may not seems like such a bad place.
      br>
      Switch EU and US in that sentence and it gets one helluva lot closer to reality.

      --

      The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer.
      --Henry Kissinger

    29. Re:A slap in the face... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hang on a minute there. At least in the UK the cabinet selected by the leader of the wining party has to be formed from elected ministers. The Prime Minister can't just pick a bunch of unelected yes men. The best the wining party can do come an election is to run their cabinet members in "Safe" seats across the UK, in the hope that the current ministers won't lose and have to be tossed out of the cabinet. This usually works, but not always..

    30. Re:A slap in the face... by -brazil- · · Score: 1

      UN != EU

      --

      The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer.
      --Henry Kissinger

    31. Re:A slap in the face... by alext · · Score: 1

      Well, the EU Parliament is democratically elected - it is the EU Commission that is acting in a peremptory fashion.

      Perhaps the solution is to correct the balance of power in the EU institutions rather than resorting to explosives? A good start would be supporting the EU constitution as that gives some more powers to the parliament.

    32. Re:A slap in the face... by infolib · · Score: 1
      By making all the countries depend on each other in trade, none of them will ever think of going to war against each other again.

      So Serbia-Montenegro, Bosnia-Hercegovina, Croatia and Slovenia were not depending on each other in trade? Sorry, but I think it's a bit more complicated than that.

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced libertarian utopia is indistinguishable from government.
    33. Re:A slap in the face... by jabuzz · · Score: 1

      You really believe that? Well you would be dead wrong. The Prime Minister would be perfectly entitled under what constitution we have to apoint whatever yes men he felt like to the House of Lords and then select them for the cabinet.

    34. Re:A slap in the face... by daem0n1x · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I have no doubt about this for a long time. EU is a plutocracy. The powers are so concentrated in the Commission that they can do anything they please. The Parliament is constantly disregarded. Keep in mind that the Parliament is elected by the Europeans, while the Commission is nominated by the govermnents, so the former really represents the European people, while the latter doesn't. But, strangely, the decision power is on the side of the Commission, and they have a long record of utterly ignoring the Parliament's decisions. Can this be called a democracy? I call it a plutocracy.
      In the last European elections I was close to not voting, for the first time in my life. What good is voting for a Parliament that is constantly ignored?

    35. Re:A slap in the face... by Dasch · · Score: 1

      I think there's already been made some progress - remember, the parliament didn't accept the first commision.

    36. Re:A slap in the face... by virtual_mps · · Score: 1
      I am very grateful to the EU as it is tying together all the countries in the continent that has suffered the most from wars in the last century. By making all the countries depend on each other in trade, none of them will ever think of going to war against each other again.

      That's absurd. Germany's major trading partner prior to WWI was, well, France. Wars are not based on logic and creating new logical constructs for avoid war is useless.
    37. Re:A slap in the face... by Lonewolf666 · · Score: 1

      Actually, Parliament seems to be quite reasonable in this affair, so we have at least some responsible politicians.
      On the other hand, the actions of some members of the EU Commission are hard to explain without bribes.
      Which would be less of a problem right now, if the EU Parliament had the legislative power a parliament should have. In that case, the amendmends made by the Parliament to the software patent directive would be law now, without the commission being able to interfere. The EU has a democratic deficit here that is almost as dangerous as manipulated elections in the US.

      --
      C - the footgun of programming languages
    38. Re:A slap in the face... by KlomDark · · Score: 1

      Way to spout the party line there, clone!

      I guess it's nice to know that these sheeple are not just confined to the US, the EU has the same problem with idiots.

      Best wishes,
      "Oonteb gleepin wockin wollen"

    39. Re:A slap in the face... by Guppy06 · · Score: 1

      "suffered the most from wars in the last century"

      What's the phrase I'm looking for here... ah, yes: self-inflicted. If the crowned heads of Europe didn't start their little inbred family feud in 1913, you likely wouldn't have had these problems.

      "By making all the countries depend on each other in trade,"

      Yeah yeah, the very same trade links that made war obsolete with the dawn of the Twentieth Century? There's no way the kaiser and the king would make war on each other!

      "Now with the addition of eastern Europe, the EU can help the poorer countries of Europe create better living situation for their citizens"

      That's another old tune. Much of that Twentieth Century bloodshed you refer to came about from Western Europe and Russia trying to "help their backwards brethren."

    40. Re:A slap in the face... by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1
      By making all the countries depend on each other in trade, none of them will ever think of going to war against each other again.

      Seems to me that I read that this was exactly the reasoning in Europe in 1913.

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    41. Re:A slap in the face... by JWW · · Score: 1

      Or it _could_ be this.

      "You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villanay." -- Obi Wan Kenobi, Star Wars

    42. Re:A slap in the face... by PurpleWizard · · Score: 1
      Your comment about how rapidly they would be replaced is surely an example of a strength of democracy. Which is why I think we are massively over precious concerning our national leaders. If someone wants to blow them up they can try, if they succeed we just vote in new ones until (in the UK) all approx. 60 million people are gone.

      That's to highlight the principle rather than say it should be run that way mind.

    43. Re:A slap in the face... by nerdlyone · · Score: 1
      But maybe the EU knows what they're doing and patents are a good thing, just as Thomas Jefferson did in the original constitution. It's just a sad day for those who don't value intellectual property.

      I agree, the rants on this board about bomb tossing are a bit scary, it is a shame that so many people who would probably not have jobs if it weren't for IP are so mindlessly against IP.

      It's like the bard Homer once said: "When will people learn? Democracy doesn't work!"

      Oh wait, that was the idiot Homer.

      If I knew how to mod you up I would.

  4. Why can they do this? by gstoddart · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Can any informed Europeans tell us why the Comission can just ignore what they've been told to do?

    It just seems really odd that when the elected groups say "game over" the other group can just say "too bad, we're doing it".

    --
    Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    1. Re:Why can they do this? by Carewolf · · Score: 5, Informative

      Because they don't think the parliament will fire them over just this, and that is the only option of sanction the European Parliament has.

    2. Re:Why can they do this? by c0l0 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The European Parliament is not able to issue obligatory mandates to the EU Commission, although it's the far greater (as in numbers) cabinet, and directly elected by the EU's citizens (which the Comission is not). Just like you, I've got no clue why this is the case. Must have been some (at least partly) insane mind introducing these rules. That's one of the reasons why the EU is ill-reputed as the anti-democratic moloch it actually is.

      --
      :%s/Open Source/Free Software/g

      YTARY!
    3. Re:Why can they do this? by ArsenneLupin · · Score: 1
      Because they don't think the parliament will fire them over just this,

      Can you say "Rocco Buttiglione"? Methinks, this commission likes to play with fire. And unlike most children, they continue even after having been burnt once! Must be some kind of masochism...

    4. Re:Why can they do this? by terrymr · · Score: 2, Informative

      The parliament does have the power to fire the commission ... whether they will over this is unknown.

    5. Re:Why can they do this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Would the upcoming European constitution make any difference in this?

    6. Re:Why can they do this? by ZakMcCracken · · Score: 5, Informative

      I think there is a misunderstanding over what exactly the European Parliament is. The group has no real political power.

      Now this isn't exactly a problem of democracy. It's just that the favored scale of democracy in Europe is national, not European. Europe is not a federation like the US, where States really have not much power compared to the federal power, for "macro" policy matters (including intellectual property).

      Thus the important decisions are always taken by mutual agreement of the governments of the countries themselves. It used to be that unanimous agreement was required, but now with the extension to more countries I think the requirement has been relaxed to a "qualified majority" for some issues.

      Getting a vote at the European Parliament brings in little more than publicity.

      The right place to petition against software patent would not be the European Parliament, whose advice gets routinely ignored anyway, but the *individual governments of each country*.

      They keep the real power, and even though they usually say "it's been decided by the Commission in Brussels" to avoid getting the heat when the shit hits the fan a few years later in each country, the truth is that *they* have been deciding it in Brussels.

      The respective place of national and European government is something that Europeans have really struggled with since the earliest days of reconstruction following WW2. Even in some States, some contend that the federal govt is taking away too much... picture what would happen if each State in the US spoke a different language and had had a distinctive political history dating back to the Middle Ages...

    7. Re:Why can they do this? by WiFiBro · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I would really like to know what's in that constitution, as I will have to vote in favour or against the constitution the 1st of June.

      Whatever I do, my government (the Dutch) has already stated that whatever the outcome of the vote is allright: if the majority votes in favour then we win, but if the majority votes against, then we are stupid and they will protect us against ourselves by ignoring that.

      They rather like to call it referendum (interglot says this is 'plebiscite' in english, which I doubt) and not a vote. Gauging?

      Also, there are some political parties against this new constitution. Therefore the government has made available about a million euros from a mysterious 'emergency fund' to be used in case the information spread about the constitution will be misleading.
      They specified this on the radio too, saying that they need this money in case the opponents of the European constitution spread false information. The interviewer asked what would happen if proponents of the constitution spread false information however this was not a possibility they expected to happen.

    8. Re:Why can they do this? by RWerp · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Why the euroskeptics dislike the EU? Because it has too little democracy, they say. Why does it have too little democracy? Because the eurosceptics prefer to give national governments the right to decide matters over people's - and parliament's - heads. Why the euroskeptics don't wish to give those powers to the Europarliament? Because they dislike the EU...

      --
      "Long run is a misleading guide to current affairs. In the long run we are all dead." (John Maynard Keynes)
    9. Re:Why can they do this? by rs79 · · Score: 5, Funny

      "Can any informed Europeans tell us why the Comission can just ignore what they've been told to do?"

      Follow the money.

      "Can any informed Europeans tell us why ICANN is so bad"

      Follow the money.

      "Can any informed Europeans tell us why the US invaded Iraq"

      Follow the money.

      *this is a recording*

      --
      Need Mercedes parts ?
    10. Re:Why can they do this? by DF5JT · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "The right place to petition against software patent would not be the European Parliament, whose advice gets routinely ignored anyway, but the *individual governments of each country*."

      The governments of the respective countries were the entities to ask for a new start of the process. The commission is an independent body elected by the council.

      Its power to deny requests for fundamental democratic procedures is what's scaring me.

      I can't see anyone in his electorate envisioning this guy just dismissing a democratic process when the request is supported by many of the 25 countries.

      Who is this guy?

    11. Re:Why can they do this? by WiFiBro · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I hope not to disappoint you but this is not accurate, and will expecially not be after the new constitution comes in place. I don't know any detail of it yet but I do know they want to shift power to Europe with that constitution.

      An example that comes very close to these patents are the "patents on life", which were decided upon in a pretty dodgy way.
      Acrtually the European Parliament managed to postpone the whole thing in 1995 by saying there should be a clause on ethics in it. The reaction by the European Commission was pretty heavy, and the lobby organizations in favour organized a pretend-grassroot campaign 'No Patents - No Cure', claiming handicapped people wanted the patents for the sake of medicines. So the same year the parliament accepted this proposal. After that vote it turned out that the 'No Patents - No Cure' campaign was not at all backed by patient organizations but by the farmaceutical industry. But then it was too late.

      Upon pressure by the Dutch parliament the Dutch government reluctantly made a case against the EU at the European Court in Luxembourg (supported by some other countries, like France), claiming the new regulation was not decided upon in a fair way. I actually sat at the court session because I was than involved with several NGO's that did not like the idea of patents on life. But I digress.

      More important is that in the end our government was forced to implement the European directory in national legislation.

      Read more (sorry, Dutch) about this legislation at http://www.platformgentechnologie.nl/patents/thema _patenten/patent_geschiedenis.html

    12. Re:Why can they do this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "picture what would happen if each State in the US spoke a different language and had had a distinctive political history dating back to the Middle Ages..."

      no offence... but I'd move to suggest that most of them still do and would be living in the middle ages if Americans had history in the first place.

      oops... me bad

    13. Re:Why can they do this? by WiFiBro · · Score: 5, Interesting

      "Because they dislike the EU..."
      false.
      The history of the European Union was not an attempt to reach democracy. You can see this very clearly if you follow several decisions. You will see that the (11-person?) European Commission has the most power, and the parliament can hardly do anything, which is not the same as what you are saying: you say the EU has no decision power, but actually the EU DOES, but there is no proper democratic control.

      You may remember too that the European Union initially was not started as a democratic thing, but as an alliance between France and Germany, it had to do with the iron and coal industry or what. It was then called the European Economic Communion and the word Economic describes exactly what it was about. Back then the main lobbyists were the larger transnationals. They still are the most dexterious in getting their plans through.

      If you want to read more on the european "democracy", look for 'Trans European Network', 'patents on life' or 'Paul van Buitenen'.

    14. Re:Why can they do this? by Auckerman · · Score: 1

      "Europe is not a federation like the US, where States really have not much power compared to the federal power"

      This really depends on what your definition of power is. Europeans are often surprised when they come to the US to find out that on a very practical level, an individual state is very much like a country.

      A federated Europe, with a united military, econimic system, and single diplomatic voice wouldn't that far off from what the US is and still leave each "country" free to have it's own laws.

      --

      Burn Hollywood Burn
    15. Re:Why can they do this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because the EU is just a pretend government. They don't do much useful unless it has fringe benefits for the politicians. They are much like the UN in this respect.

    16. Re:Why can they do this? by swillden · · Score: 2, Insightful

      on a very practical level, an individual state is very much like a country.

      On paper, anyway. And in practice in some respects, but states' rights have been eroded rather badly over the last century or so. The combination of the massive stretching of the commerce clause and the constitutional amendments making senators publicly elected and giving the federal government the right to levy direct income taxes have weakened the states dramatically.

      People differ on whether that's a good thing or a bad thing, but it's definitely not what was intended, except perhaps by some of the most extreme Federalists.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    17. Re:Why can they do this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "referendum" is the english word, too...

      e.g. Ireland constitutionally has to have a referendum, as recognising the EU constitution would mean a constitutional amendment here.

      Personally, I'm voting no on the constitution on general principles - but Ireland voted "no" on the Nice Treaty too, and the government just had another referendum...

      As far as I'm concerned, I shouldn't have to vote - it should be an offence not to consult me on decisions that affect me. I regard "representative democracy" as a failure, a flawed sham.

      People say "oh you wouldn't want to be asked every little thing, you'd be swamped with decisions" - rubbish! that's what computer-aided information management is for.

    18. Re:Why can they do this? by WiFiBro · · Score: 0

      ah! wouldn't that be great! but then i'ld also like to require a little test before i let you vote on a specific issue, for instance if you vote on speed limits, you need to prove you understand the consequences.

    19. Re:Why can they do this? by curious.corn · · Score: 4, Interesting

      That was a wee bit different. Buttiglione was "proposed" to the EU commission by the current italian government as compensation for his aid to straighten up a little domestic crisis.

      Antefact: our bipolar system rotates around 2 "coalitions" that compete for an electoral bonus. The winning one gets over represented in parliament and the appointment to run the country for a legislature.
      During the last non-legislative elections, the Right (Berlusconi's currently in-office "Casa delle Libertà") got a sound beating for a long list of reasons, but simply put: Berlusconi takes care of his judiciary & financial problems and gives a damn about anything else. The internal discipline is formidable, for, whenever there's a Bill or some other Act the Boss desires to pass, rank & file politicians and smaller parties get to execute orders like diligent servicemen.
      Compensations vary but one party, the xenophobic Lega Nord, got most of the leftovers among the minor parties and was given way too much media coverage. Those that were left out became jealous of this and worried for their own base as it balked at the sheer ineptitude of the current administration.
      The electoral beating gave them a chance to voice their dissent and it took a full year for them to get quiet, some Chair shuffling and a great deal of threats. In particular, one democristian party, led by a man called Follini, was becoming the proverbial thorn in the ass. Enter Buttiglione; he offered to split the party and minoritize Follini.

      His service was immediately rewarded with a prestigious nomination to the EU Commission that could be smuggled as tangible recognition to the party's relevance in the coalition (hypocrites). Clearly, the EU parliament wasn't amused for this obvious exchange at it's own cost: Buttiglione took up Mario Monti's slot (yeah, the guy that stood up agains Microsoft...) and grilled the idiot at the first chance; Buttiglione's attitude was also surprising as he did everything possible to get kicked out. He obviously wanted to get kicked out and chose some petty argument to be dealt with championing his fundamentalist catholic agenda.

      This long winded post hasn't even scratched the surface of the issue but hopefully it gived an idea of what happened.

      --
      Mi domando chi à il mandante di tutte le cazzate che faccio - Altan
    20. Re:Why can they do this? by curious.corn · · Score: 1

      This long winded post hasn't even scratched the surface of the issue but hopefully it gived

      It's a typo, I swear! ;-)

      --
      Mi domando chi à il mandante di tutte le cazzate che faccio - Altan
    21. Re:Why can they do this? by gstoddart · · Score: 1
      Follow the money.

      Succinct. Informative. What else could I have asked for. =)
      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    22. Re:Why can they do this? by SenorCitizen · · Score: 4, Informative
      The governments of the respective countries were the entities to ask for a new start of the process. The commission is an independent body elected by the council.

      No, no and no.

      The European Council consists of members of the governments of the member states. They are the ones that have to accept this directive proposal for it to become law. There are obviously countries that want the proposal to go through very badly, and some (maybe enough) that don't. The prospect of opposition is why they are afraid to reopen discussion on the proposal inside the Council.

      The Parliament asked for the restart. The Commission chose not to listen to the parliament, but instead listen to the countries on the Council who want the proposal to go through.

      The Commission is an independent body, but the members are chosen by the council and approved by the Parliament. Both the Council and the Parliament would have the power to fire the Commission(which will NOT happen, believe me), but the Parliament has no power whatsoever over the Council.

      So yes, the GP post was correct -- at this stage the *only* people to complain to are the ministers in your government. They're the ones who will make the vote when the item comes up in a Council meeting.

    23. Re:Why can they do this? by Perky_Goth · · Score: 1

      i like your post and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
      seriously, though, it's weird that i'm in portugal and know more of USA's politics than the EU's. THAT i definitly didn't know about. would you recommend some newspaper or something for me to read?

    24. Re:Why can they do this? by plague3106 · · Score: 1

      It's just that the favored scale of democracy in Europe is national, not European. Europe is not a federation like the US, where States really have not much power compared to the federal power, for "macro" policy matters (including intellectual property).

      Just as an FYI, it wasn't setup for this...but with the direct election of senators, thats what ended up coming to be.

    25. Re:Why can they do this? by dehuit · · Score: 1
      Therefore the government has made available about a million euros from a mysterious 'emergency fund' to be used in case the information spread about the constitution will be misleading.

      Do you really think all this money will go to pro-constitution propaganda? That would be a bit too obvious. Actually, the money will be split among pro, contra and neutral lobbying groups, in a 4:4:2 split. See here.

      Your statement that a 'nee' vote will be ignored is also unfounded, the two largest parties promised to back a 'nee' if enough people vote.

    26. Re:Why can they do this? by HogynCymraeg · · Score: 1
      Can any informed Europeans tell us why the Comission can just ignore what they've been told to do?
      Because everybody gave them the right to. By "everybody" I mean the governments, not the people. At least, not in the UK anyway.
    27. Re:Why can they do this? by Dot.Com.CEO · · Score: 1
      The EU actually has an excellent documentation service. Typical to EU practices, however, the service is well hidden in the site (www.eu.int). You chose the languages you want to receive information on and you will start receiving a steady flux of documentation and (yes!) DVDs on EU procedings, including, for example, the proposed EU constitution. Failing that, calling EU services in your prefered language (contacts on the page) should mean they send you the required documentation.

      Funny thing though, every time I move, the only way to change my address is to re-subscribe to the whole thing again... LONG LIVE EU!

      --
      Mother is the best bet and don't let Satan draw you too fast.
    28. Re:Why can they do this? by ThaReetLad · · Score: 1

      I'm fairly confident that's the first time I've heard the phrase "Fundamentalist Catholic". Sounds like an oxymoron to me.

      --
      You can't win Darth. If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine
    29. Re:Why can they do this? by Simon+Brooke · · Score: 1
      Can any informed Europeans tell us why the Comission can just ignore what they've been told to do?

      Not really...

      In theory the Commission are 'civil servants', although in fact they are normally nominated from among the ranks of former senior politicians. They are nominated by individual member governments and it often seems that the people nominated are people it is considered convenient to get out of the way of national politics. Not all are of the highest calibre, and those who were are often past their best. So the first way you can look at the commission is as a retirement home for failed senior politicians.

      Next, the commission effectively serves two masters. The real power in the EU is in the hands of the 'Council of Ministers'. The Council of Ministers is just that - a meeting of all the ministers of all the member governments. This is as if the USA was ruled by a council of all the state governors. But there is, additionally, the Parliament, which has very little actual power but is directly elected so has stronger claims to legitimacy.

      All these are relatively young institutions and the power relationships between them have not yet really been played out, and anything happening in EU politics has to be seen partly as the individual states, the Council of Ministers, the Parliament and the Commission all vying for power. The long term trend is that the influence nd reputation of the Parliament seems to be increasing slowly, while the Commission has been badly tarnished by a series of scandals.

      What is happening here is the Commission is playing the Council of Ministers off against the Parliament. The Commission wants patents. The Council of Ministers started off pro-patent but is now badly split and may become anti-patent. The Parliament is at present anti-patent.

      This may sound good for us but in practice I don't think any of these institutions fundamentally cares very much about the patent issue. What they care about is establishing the pecking order between the institutions, and software patents is just the ball currently in play.

      --
      I'm old enough to remember when discussions on Slashdot were well informed.
    30. Re:Why can they do this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sometimes long post are only this: long. Not interesting or to be trust.

    31. Re:Why can they do this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is a myth that the european parlament has no power. The parliament can still change or reject the proposed directive in the 2nd or 3rd reading.

    32. Re:Why can they do this? by erik_norgaard · · Score: 1

      The EU is a union of independent countries and for this reason has been carefully constructed to give the impression of a democratic political union while keeping as much power as posible in each country.

      The parlament is democratic representive of the european citizens, whereas the commision on the other hand is the non-democratically elected government. The members of the commision are chosen by the primeministers of the member countries, so they are doubly indirectly elected.

      The parlament has no power to propose new laws, they accept or decline. The commision has the power to propose a new law, but cannot force it through (allthough I think there are some exceptions).

      So, the parlament can indicate that it would like the commision to take certain steps in a given direction, but they can't make it a law because that would require the commision to propose it. So the commision can ignore it.

      However, the parlament can dismiss the entire commision. This causes a major political crisis and is avoided when posible. For example, there were a big fuz about an italian in the new commision that the parlament would not approve. But the parlament can only discard the entire commision, in the end Berlusconi found a replacement. So democracy sort of works sometimes.

      Then everything becomes blurred when you include the council of ministers.

    33. Re:Why can they do this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why not? We are just at the beginning of the codecision procedure. The european parliament can still say "No!" in the 2nd or 3rd reading. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codecision_procedure

    34. Re:Why can they do this? by Carewolf · · Score: 1

      Why, sounds perfectly correct in my ears. Could describe many US republicans as well.

    35. Re:Why can they do this? by -brazil- · · Score: 1

      If you think so, you're mistaken about the meaning of either "fundamentalist", "catholic" or "oxymoron".

      --

      The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer.
      --Henry Kissinger

    36. Re:Why can they do this? by Yer+Mum · · Score: 1

      Can any informed Europeans tell us why the Comission can just ignore what they've been told to do?

      It just seems really odd that when the elected groups say "game over" the other group can just say "too bad, we're doing it".

      Because there's they're not legally binded to and they don't want to create a precedent for the future.

    37. Re:Why can they do this? by infolib · · Score: 1

      How about this: I count myself a euroskeptic. I want the EU to have less power, the national governments more. Where the EU holds power it should be in the hands of the Parliament. This means I think the Council should either vote unanimously or defer to the Parliament. The Commission isn't really controlled by the nations, and hardly by Parliament - take some of its powers and give them to the countries, and strengthen Parliamentary control with the rest. You may call my opinion stupid, but I don't think it's inconsistent. No?

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced libertarian utopia is indistinguishable from government.
    38. Re:Why can they do this? by ThaReetLad · · Score: 1

      As a former Catholic myself, I'm just saying that Catholicism tends to be quite a moderate form of Christianity in comparison to other Christian traditions. It's far too tied up in ancient and meaningless traditions and rituals to be described as fundamentalist.

      --
      You can't win Darth. If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine
    39. Re:Why can they do this? by daem0n1x · · Score: 1

      The called Constitution is being dealt almost secretly by the Commission, was written in secret, without the slightest participation of the populations, and does a great effort to federalise the EU, and to enslave the Europeans to the powerful corporations, taking even more power from the European people. It has nothing to do with a Constitution, I would call it the European Conspiracy.

    40. Re:Why can they do this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      The CECA (Coal and Steel Union) was not started as a democratic process because so early after the war (1950) very few europeans would have agreed to support a paneuropean government where at least half the representatives would be Germans.

      The building of Europe relies on the "spillover" political theory: people build trust through commerce, then political integration follows when they've realized that the neighbour aren't that evil anymore. Looking back over the past 50 years, I'd say it worked pretty well, eventhough there's still a long way to go.

    41. Re:Why can they do this? by -brazil- · · Score: 1

      According to Webster's, fundamentalism is "a movement or attitude stressing strict and literal adherence to a set of basic principles". There certainly are some people and organizations which are part of the roman-catholic church (or tolerated by it) which fit that description. Ever heard of something called "Opus Dei"?

      --

      The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer.
      --Henry Kissinger

    42. Re:Why can they do this? by ThaReetLad · · Score: 1

      Uh-oh, I see someone who's read too much Dan Brown!!

      Besides, webster couldn't even spell stuff right

      [tt]

      --
      You can't win Darth. If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine
    43. Re:Why can they do this? by WiFiBro · · Score: 1

      You made me doubt and actually i almost thought you were right, but then I looked at this, where it is first denied by Nicolai, but then restated in different words.

    44. Re:Why can they do this? by WiFiBro · · Score: 1

      And at this forum which certainly does not support my views in all things, they quote Nicolai:
      "the fund was not secret, but you never asked about it"

    45. Re:Why can they do this? by BenTels0 · · Score: 1
      It just seems really odd that when the elected groups say "game over" the other group can just say "too bad, we're doing it".

      They didn't say "game over". They requested a restart of the procedure. That's not like the military a-request-is-an-order -- that's really a request.

      From here on, the Council has to get together to come up with a common position. That goes to the EP and we go to the second reading of the Commission's proposal by the EP (i.e. the common position of the Council). As a result of that, the EP can approve (the proposal is passed), reject (the proposal is scrap metal) or amend (there is a Dutch MEP who is going to shoot for bringing the EP's previous amendments back).

      In case of amendment, the commission delivers an opinion on the amendments by the EP. We can assume that this will be negative at this point. The ball is then in the Council's court. The Council can approve the amendments unanimously (to override the objecting opinion of the Commission; the proposal as amended by the EP is then passed). Or the Council can reject the amendments. We then go into the Concilliation phase.

      The concilliation phase is a last-ditch attempt to reach agreement between Council and EP. It consists of a meeting between represenatives of the Council and the EP and the relevant Commissioner. They try to work out a text everybody can agree upon. If they can't reach a joint text, the proposal is dead. If they reach a joint text, the Council and EP both take a vote on that text. Both approve, the joint text is law. Either rejects, the proposal is dead.

      In other words, the EP still has plenty of ways to shove software patenting up the Commission's ass. Also, don't forget, the Council has yet to reach a joint position -- and the national parliaments of several countries are also working to get their ministers (representatives of nations in the Council) to change their vote, plus the new members get a first say and we don't know what that will be either.

    46. Re:Why can they do this? by BenTels0 · · Score: 1

      You haven't actually read it, have you? You should.

    47. Re:Why can they do this? by dehuit · · Score: 1

      Ok, it seems you are right, there are 2 pots of money: one openly distributed, and another (larger) one for the government only to be spent if things look grim for their preferred outcome. That's not very nice, especially because they are not very upfront with it (I missed it). Still i'm not too concerned about it.

  5. I think we know what the EC thinks of him. by bigtallmofo · · Score: 5, Funny

    From TFA:

    Florian Mueller, the manager of the pan-European NoSoftwarePatents.com campaign, condemned the Commission's decision in the strongest terms: "A wannabe Napoleon who heads the Commission and a Microsoft puppet that runs the DG (directorate general) in charge have decided to negate democracy. Now we call on the EU Council to demonstrate a more democratic attitude and to reopen negotiations of its Common Position at the forthcoming meeting of the Competitiveness Council on Monday (7 March)."

    It would appear the European Commission has moderated him -1 Flamebait and will be ignoring him.

    --
    I'm a big tall mofo.
    1. Re:I think we know what the EC thinks of him. by rking · · Score: 3, Informative

      More of a flame than flamebait, but certainly not showing themselves as the voice of reason.

      FFIIs statement was much better. While still being highly critical of the decisions it avoids personal abuse.

    2. Re:I think we know what the EC thinks of him. by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 2, Funny
      Who you callin' "wannabe".

      I am Napoleon! Just ask Josephine, my sock-puppet!

      --
      "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
      Never been known to fail..."
    3. Re:I think we know what the EC thinks of him. by jd · · Score: 2, Funny

      Oy! Oo'er you calling a sock puppet?

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    4. Re:I think we know what the EC thinks of him. by Brandybuck · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This is our spokesman? Get him the fsck out of there!

      Free Software will never be ready for prime time until we learn to muzzle our wackos.

      --
      Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
    5. Re:I think we know what the EC thinks of him. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Josephine, is that you?

    6. Re:I think we know what the EC thinks of him. by Halo1 · · Score: 2, Informative
      --
      Donate free food here
    7. Re:I think we know what the EC thinks of him. by jodebaer · · Score: 1

      Jonas - gij ziet ook _alles_ zekers ???

    8. Re:I think we know what the EC thinks of him. by zobier · · Score: 1
      I know I used to think about mod scores for all-staff emails.

      BTW: Kudos for getting the shift1 puzzle.

      PS: Why is your karma so bad that you're posting at -1?

      --
      Me lost me cookie at the disco.
  6. Huh? by Otter · · Score: 3, Insightful
    The EU Commission, under the leadership of someone who previously failed as Portuguese prime minister and as per the suggestion of a Microsoft puppet, has decided to decline the European Parliament's request for restarting the process on the software patent directive.

    Failed to decide to decline to request to restart the process on the directive?!?

    Normally I cringe at stupid comments like "Microsoft puppet" but in this case, it was the only clue I had to unravel the rest of that tangle and conclude that this is a win for the pro-patent side.

    1. Re:Huh? by dabadab · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      I'm not sure if English is your primary language, but it's not that hard to parse this sentence - actually, it must require a tremendous amount of dedication to misparse it in that way as you did.

      --
      Real life is overrated.
    2. Re:Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Should have posted in XML. :)

    3. Re:Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Obviously I understand that the process won't be restarted. Left out of the story was any hint as to what "restarting the process" means in this instance.

    4. Re:Huh? by jonbryce · · Score: 1

      If you were under the impression that not restarting the process meant that the directive was never passed, you would misinterpret the situation, and your thoughts would not conflict with what the article says.

    5. Re:Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have a proof of the ease of parsing this comment, but it is too big to fit in the margin.

    6. Re:Huh? by snorklewacker · · Score: 1

      Holy lack of an absence of a missing devoid of quadruple negatives batman!

      --
      I am no longer wasting my time with slashdot
  7. Been thinking about this lately... by GreyWolf3000 · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Perhaps our rejection of software patents over, say hardware patents, lies in how easy it is to write software and how hard it is to make hardware.

    I agree that a lot of software patents are a joke (the isNot example comes to mind)--but so are a lot of non-software patents. I think we just have a preference here because software patents "hit closer to home."

    If it were as easy to get "duh-obvious" patents in the hardware realm, the hardware world would similarly be handicapped. In my opinion, we simply need more, better-educated people working at the USPTO, as well as stricter, more consistent rules for granting patents.

    A great new idea that no one has thought of before can theoretically exist in any field, even software.

    I can see how free software is threatened (I am myself an advocate), but I fail to see how any other hobby activity is also not similarly threatened, except for, say, building remote control cars isn't as easy to "publish" than software.

    I guess my point is that the real problem is crappy patents, and they exist in every field, and they cause similar problems. Maybe there is a place for software patents that do truly contain unique and innovative ideas--or at least such a software patent would have more merit to me than a frivolous hardware patent.

    --
    Slashdot: Where people pretend to be twice as smart as they really are by behaving like children.
    1. Re:Been thinking about this lately... by nattt · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You miss the point that hardware is a thing, whereas software is, in source form, a free expression of ideas, as any novel in literature is. Software embodies algorithms and algorithms are rightly not-patentable as they would limit under law the range of legal human thought.

      Software is more than adequately protected by copyright. The only good solution for software patents is no software patents. I can sort of see the point of patents on hardware, but again, they need to be quality patents or the problem is worse than the solution.

      --
      -- oldthinkers unbellyfeel ingsoc
    2. Re:Been thinking about this lately... by Otter · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Perhaps our rejection of software patents over, say hardware patents, lies in how easy it is to write software and how hard it is to make hardware.

      I'm not sure who "our" refers to, but historically there has been a policy that patents should be awarded for inventions, not ideas, not even really clever ideas. Software patents (and business patents) represent a backing away from that policy.

    3. Re:Been thinking about this lately... by taniwha · · Score: 1

      Well I think the answer is simple .... remember all those jokes from the 50's ... they guys in the patent office waiting room .... let's change it back - if you want a patent you have to provide a 1/10 scale wooden working model of your invention .... after the 10th guy comes through with the till with just one button the patent office may start to wise up and anull all the 1-click patents

    4. Re:Been thinking about this lately... by elhondo · · Score: 1

      I don't know if this is right... but I think patents started off as a way to be the only one to profit from an invention. Say I invented a stove, rifle, or anything else. That wouldn't stop people from using my techniques to build a stove, or anything, it would just stop them from being able to sell it. I tend to think the idea of patents got co-opted to where that wasn't the case, and now software patents have become essentially copyrights for works that are too small to qualify for copyrights themselves.

    5. Re:Been thinking about this lately... by GreyWolf3000 · · Score: 1

      You miss the point that hardware is a thing, whereas software is, in source form, a free expression of ideas, as any novel in literature is.

      I don't necessarily agree with that. There are lots of patents that cover "ideas" outside of software. If I tried to patent the idea of using a separate CPU to process graphics commands back before this idea had been implemented, I might have been able to get such a patent, if the guys reviewing my application were as braindead as some of the guys who review software patent applications.

      Software isn't a free expression of ideas to me, it's a set of instructions that, when translated, tell hardware what to do. You'd have a decent chance at expressing any idea that popped up in your head in novel form, but not in computer software. Even if you could, you'd be violating the intent of software, whereas expression is the intent of a novel.

      If I come up with a new way to make databases with tens of millions of entries sort themselves fifty times faster than any other database implementation, not only would that idea be as unique and concrete as any hardware patent, but copyright wouldn't prevent someone else from reimplementing my technique with new code.

      If I could bypass all of nvidia's patents on graphics cards by simply re-implementing them, their patents would be meaningless.

      I think patents are in a murky state either way you look at it. My point is not that software patents are acceptible, but that we have a biased standard to them, and we should review the patent system as a whole instead of focusing on one area because it happens to threaten what we're immediately interested in.

      --
      Slashdot: Where people pretend to be twice as smart as they really are by behaving like children.
    6. Re:Been thinking about this lately... by file-exists-p · · Score: 1


      It is a symptomatic geek way of thinking to believe that when things only differ quantitatively, they do not differ at all. That is so not true.

      The quantitative difference is so huge between the difficulty to make hardware and software, and between how many patents are involved in a physical device vs. a program, that it makes a qualitative difference.

      One has to consider the two "potential worlds": the one with software patents, the other without, and try to figure out which one is more desirable. The very existence of patent is not a fact of nature, something written in a big book. It is not written somewhere that if you have an idea in some country at some time you can prevent somebody else form having the same idea 15,000km away 10 years later. If patents do not help, they should not exist.

      For softwares, they do not help. You can not find *one* person with one convaincing example of acceptable patent on an algorithm.

      --
      Go Debian!

    7. Re:Been thinking about this lately... by GreyWolf3000 · · Score: 1

      A friend of mine got a patent that incorporated a patent dating back to the 1860's that contained essentially the idea of using a pipe of a certain size in a certain manner for a certain task. It was definately an "idea" as it only combined components that already existed in a unique way. Of course, you could argue that all inventions are just that--so what if I combine a bubble sort, a hash table, IPC, etc?

      I agree with you, though, the patent system is getting worse in that it's allowing increasingly obvious and broad patents to get the green-light.

      I also think that software patents are especially dangerous--but I don't think we should be reviewing the validity of software patents in general--they're a symptom of a deeper problem.

      --
      Slashdot: Where people pretend to be twice as smart as they really are by behaving like children.
    8. Re:Been thinking about this lately... by redcircle · · Score: 1

      If it were as easy to get "duh-obvious" patents in the hardware realm, the hardware world would similarly be handicapped. In my opinion, we simply need more, better-educated people working at the USPTO, as well as stricter, more consistent rules for granting patents.

      We should just have all the /. readers moderate what patents should be granted..

    9. Re:Been thinking about this lately... by jonbryce · · Score: 1

      That IMO would be a software patent.

      What is it that tells a particular CPU to do graphics work rather than some other sort of work? It certainly isn't hardware. It is some sort of software. Maybe the operating system, or a device driver, or some firmware stored on a rom chip on the motherboard.

    10. Re:Been thinking about this lately... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      we simply need more, better-educated people working at the USPTO

      I graduated with about 10 CompSci students who ended up at the patent office, and you can rest assured that the people who went to USPTO were the ones who couldn't get jobs elsewhere.

    11. Re:Been thinking about this lately... by roystgnr · · Score: 1

      You miss the point that hardware is a thing, whereas software is, in source form, a free expression of ideas, as any novel in literature is.

      Does anyone patenting hardware ever send a physical thing to the patent office? Typically what they have patented is, in blueprint form, a free expression of ideas.

      Software is more than adequately protected by copyright.

      You're right, but you might want to find better arguments.

      The best reason to deny software patents is that patent offices have proven themselves incapable of identifying and rejecting software patents which are overly broad, describe prior art, and/or would be obvious to any programmer presented with the same problem. If this same incapacity were shared by all supporters of software patents, perhaps you could convince them that software engineering is somehow less tangible than mechanical engineering; unfortunately the most fervent supporters of software patents are the large software companies that hope to benefit from locking out new competition.

    12. Re:Been thinking about this lately... by hacksoncode · · Score: 1
      I agree with what you said in general, but there's one little bit I'd like to highlight. You said "obvious to any programmer presented with the same problem". The difficulty with this statement is that often the problem is 99% of the invention.

      Clearly 1-click purchases aren't a good example (because they're stupid and hardly novel), but it's what everyone is familiar with, so here goes:

      99% of the invention of 1-click purchases is stating the problem: "hey wouldn't it be cool if there were a way to let users buy stuff on the internet by pressing just 1 button".

      Yes, yes, yes.... the answer to that is "no", and "it's been done before". But the invention *is* the question.

      Much like "wouldn't it be cool if there were a way to take the existing manual process for carding cotton and trivially transform it into a purely mechanical process?". Any competent engineer could have come up with the cotton gin even at the time if presented with this exact problem.

    13. Re:Been thinking about this lately... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As a person who has worked in a group that has been developing an experimental software platform over several years, inventing many unique novel software concepts along the way, all of which has cost millions and millions of dollars, I reject the notion that inventing hardware is inherently more difficult than inventing software. Thes crux of the anti-software patent argument is that you can't patent "an algorithm". What about an algorithm built with multiple algorithms? What about a set of algorithms combined to create a virtual machine? What about many, many algorithms built upon many, many abstractions, so much so that it is equivalent in complexity to a patentable piece of hardware?

      Software patents will help protect the investment my group has made. I'm not talking about flippant IsNot or "one click e-commerce" software patents here - but software patents for software that has required substantial intellectual and financial investments to develop.

    14. Re:Been thinking about this lately... by Travis+Fisher · · Score: 1
      • Much like "wouldn't it be cool if there were a way to take the existing manual process for carding cotton and trivially transform it into a purely mechanical process?". Any competent engineer could have come up with the cotton gin even at the time if presented with this exact problem.
      One big difference is, if engineer A and engineer B hole themselves up in their own barns and independently work out a machine to card cotton, they will probably come up with noticably different implementations so that the patent that A gets will not conflict with the patent that B gets. On the other hand, the "one click" patent doesn't cover a particular implementation of one click shopping, it covers any implementation of one click shopping. So in the shopping example, the patentable invention pretty much is the question, like you say, but in the mechanical example it isn't.

      The constitution purpose of patents is to incourage innovators to innovate. When patents cover the innovation of merely asking new questions, does this encourage invention? No! It just gets in the way of people who actually want to do something with ideas. That's the big problem with the current system...

    15. Re:Been thinking about this lately... by amiliv · · Score: 1

      I kind of agree with you. If person/organization requesting patent is unable to provide documentation that it invested considerable amount of time and resources in development, it shouldn't be granted a patent. Period. Patents shouldn't be lottery tickets (as they are today, sadly). They are supposed to give incentive for serious (and costly) development efforts. The way they are granted today (especially software patents) is a joke.

    16. Re:Been thinking about this lately... by back_pages · · Score: 1
      Software is more than adequately protected by copyright. The only good solution for software patents is no software patents. I can sort of see the point of patents on hardware, but again, they need to be quality patents or the problem is worse than the solution.

      Food for thought - Tannenbaum has a marvelous quote that software is equivalent to hardware.

      As you seem to be aware, software itself is not patentable (in the US). Systems that include software are patentable, ranging from computer control of fuel mixtures in a space shuttle, computer control of a blast furnace, distributed computing arrangments, to unfortunately computer code embodied on computer memory which executes on a computer processor.

      The spirit is in the right place, but to date there isn't any concise and nearly perfect way to indoctrinate the idea that "computer controlled flight systems" should be patentable and "GUIs on a computer" should not. For comparison, look up 35 USC 101 and 35 USC 112 for an example of laws that govern the patent system. Spruce up that language, if you can, to "cure" the problem of "software patents" while protecting the IP investments and innovation of people making truly complicated systems that use computer/software elements.

      Not that this should be taken as a personal challenge, but this is the problem facing the courts (in the US). If you're too draconian or arbitrary in your distinction, it'll immediately end up at the Supreme Court with allegations of unconstitutional market controls and discrimination against sectors of the economy. If you're too loose with the definitions, we'll be living with patents for blinking cursors (which, of course, interact with the highly complicated computer visual display system ;)

      Not nearly as simple a problem as many Slashdotters would like to believe, but not many Slashdotters bother to inform themselves of the issues.

    17. Re:Been thinking about this lately... by jelle · · Score: 1

      How are the electronic design files of a hardware component any different than software?

      So, if software shouldn't be patentable, why should any part of the design of a hardware component be?

      --
      --- Hindsight is 20/20, but walking backwards is not the answer.
    18. Re:Been thinking about this lately... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      , lies in how easy it is to write software and how hard it is to make hardware.

      This is a common theme among open source folk. They constantly devalue their work. Try and get a bum off the street to write decent C++ code. Good luck. It's a skilled job, and no less skilled than hardware.

    19. Re:Been thinking about this lately... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not nearly as simple a problem as many Slashdotters would like to believe, but not many Slashdotters bother to inform themselves of the issues.

      MOD PARENT UP!!!! Most slashdotters are NOT informed on the issues.

    20. Re:Been thinking about this lately... by KontinMonet · · Score: 1

      You can't always blame the USPTO. Certain judgements haven't helped. For example in 2002 the CAFC ruled that the PTO had incorrectly rejected two applications for "obviousness," arguing that if an examiner rejects an application using "general knowledge," that knowledge "must be articulated and placed on the record." According to the then deputy commissioner Esther Kepplinger, this meant "we can't reject something just because it's stupid."

      --
      Did he inhale?
    21. Re:Been thinking about this lately... by Darren+Winsper · · Score: 1

      Patents are meant to be on implementations. If you re-implement something differently to the way NVIDIA implemented it, then you have bypassed their patent, in principle.

    22. Re:Been thinking about this lately... by Guppy06 · · Score: 1

      "whereas software is, in source form, a free expression of ideas,"

      If it's so much about "free expression," why does my compiler bitch so much when I miss a single lousy semicolon?

    23. Re:Been thinking about this lately... by alsy · · Score: 1

      Yes, there are crappy patents, but there are some areas in which there should be no patents.

      Imagine if Agatha Christie could have not only copyrighted her books, but could have also raised a patent on "The Murder Mystery Novel" - or Bill Haley had a patent on "Rock music". Imagine how stifling on creativity that would have been.

      Similarly with software - copyright is appropriate but not patents.

    24. Re:Been thinking about this lately... by Alsee · · Score: 1

      not many Slashdotters bother to inform themselves of the issues.

      Agreed. Programmers have an inherent understanding of software and the overwheling majority see a "blatantly obvious absurdity" of software patents, even if they have not done the research and analysis to adaquately explain the exact problem.

      You cite the "problem facing the courts". Well we had perfectly good law and properly and the US patent office and the US courts cosistantly rejected software patents. We had things like the Mental Steps Doctrine. Congress did not reverse the law to allow software patents. The supreme Court did not reverse the law to allow software patents. It was lower courts that decided to abandonestablised law and lower courts ruling in contradiction to the Supreme Court who expanded patentablility to software. Sadly the Supreme Court can only review a limited number of cases each year, and they generally don't bump a critical civil rights case or unconstitutional law case off the docket to make room for an "insignifigant patent dispute". Lets look at the most recent Supreme Court rulings.

      The latest was Diamond v Deihr. The 4 member minority was quite vocal in opposition to any move that would open the door to patenting software. The majority dismissed that complaint by explaining that it would be an error to read the majority ruling as opening the door for software patents. The majority explicity stated that process patents were for physical processes transforming a physical article to a different state of thing. The majority ruled that "we think that a physical and chemical process for molding precision synthetic rubber products falls within the 101 categories of possibly patentable subject matter". That hardly opens the door for logic patents. In addition, the Supreme Court explicitly ruled on only 101 suject matter grounds. They explicity pointed out that the patent in question may still be rejected under 102 and 103 novelty and non-obviousness grounds. And to address those grounds we need to look to the next most recent Supreme Court ruling:

      In Parker v Flook the Supreme Court addressed novelty and non-obviousness in relation to software: "Whether the algorithm was in fact known or unknown at the time of the claimed invention, as one of the 'basic tools of scientific and technological work,' it is treated as though it were a familiar part of the prior art ".

      A certain 100 digit number may certainly never have existed before (novel). That 100 digit number may certainly be non-obvious. That 100 digit number may certainly be useful. However a number is not an invention. A number is not patentable. Math is not an invention and is not patentable. An equation is not an invention and is not patentable. An algorithm is not an invention and is not patentable. Logic is not an invention and is not patentable. A series of mental steps is not an invention and is not patentable. These things are synonymous with software.

      For patent purposes all posible software is to be "treated as though it were a familiar part of the prior art". There is no such thing as novel software for patent purposes. There is no such thing as non-obvious software for patent purposes. You can certainly have an invention that happens to be connected to a computer and with software in it, but the software contributes nothing towards that patentability. The software portion counts as 100% familiar prior art. To get that patent there must be something signifigantly novel and non-obvious in some physical object or some physical process outside of the ordinary computer and software.

      ------

      I am a programmer. Running software mentally is a routine part of writing and debugging software. Any software can in principal eventually be "run" in pure though in a human brain (though obviously some software would take millions of years to run that way). In fact many software patents can be "run" mentally in a matter of minutes. For anyone to argue that so

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
    25. Re:Been thinking about this lately... by Alsee · · Score: 1

      electronic design files

      The electronic design files are covered by copyright, they have no patent protection. The object described by those files may certainly be a patentable object, but the description itself is non-patentable.

      Unless of course you think a trashy paperback spy novel that happens to have a text description of an invention is somehow a patent infringment. Chuckle.

      You can invent and patent (1)novel and non-obvious physical objects, and (2) novel and non-obvious physical processes to transform physical materials. You cannot invent and patent numbers or math or logic or a sequence of mental steps.

      The US Supreme Court explicitly says "Whether the [math/software] algorithm was in fact known or unknown at the time of the claimed invention, as one of the "basic tools of scientific and technological work," it is treated as though it were a familiar part of the prior art". The European patent convention explicitly says math and logic and mental steps and software are not inventions and are not patentable.

      It was well established globally, and up until recently well established in the US, that math and logic and mental processes were not patentable. In otherwords that software was not patentable. The current US system is purely a lower court creation, a reversal of established US law, contrary to established global patent law and norms, and in viloation of Supreme Court rulings.

      Logic patents are absurd.

      The Supreme Court has neglected the entire field of patent law for far too long and the lower courts have run amuck. The Supreme Court can only review a limited number of cases each year. Sadly trying to squeeze a patent dispute onto the Supreme Court docket generally means bumping some civil rights case or unconstitutional law case OFF of the Supreme Court docket to make room. If/when the court does address this field again they can wipe out all software patents overnight simply by affirming that PRIOR LAW WAS CORRECT in rejecting software patents.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
    26. Re:Been thinking about this lately... by back_pages · · Score: 1
      [Diamond v. Diehr] hardly opens the door for logic patents.

      Quite right, and MPEP 2106 reinforces that. A patent application should be rejected as nonstatutory if it fails to produce a useful, concrete and tangible result (MPEP 2106 II A). The catch is that you must figure out what that means.

      Software that fiddles with bits in memory does not meet this criteria. Software that "transmits computation results via a communications relay for permanent expression" could print results on a printer, save results on your hard drive, or control a grinding machine to produce a three-dimensional prototype. To date, there exists no judicially created guideline that draws a line in the sand, separating what Slashdot calls "software" and what lawyers call "software". In fact, I highly doubt that Slashdot could come to a consensus.

      A certain 100 digit number may certainly never have existed before (novel). That 100 digit number may certainly be non-obvious. That 100 digit number may certainly be useful. However a number is not an invention. A number is not patentable. Math is not an invention and is not patentable. An equation is not an invention and is not patentable. An algorithm is not an invention and is not patentable. Logic is not an invention and is not patentable. A series of mental steps is not an invention and is not patentable. These things are synonymous with software.

      While I know that is academically true (I'm a BSCS and BSMathematics who concentrated in computability and algorithms) it would be trivial to show this is absurd in court.

      "Ok, 432,215,732,253,144. What does that software do?"
      "Uh.."

      Nobody is claiming a particular number for a patent. Hell, a particular organization of steel molecules is synonymous with every all-steel machine, but nobody would use that argument to overthrow patents on Vise-Grips(TM), would they?

      I am a programmer. Running software mentally is a routine part of writing and debugging software. Any software can in principal eventually be "run" in pure though in a human brain (though obviously some software would take millions of years to run that way).

      The fact that it would take millions of years is precisely why it would be considered impossible for a human. The F-117A Nighthawk is too unstable to fly without computer control, although Superman could do it ;) There is a line on what is reasonable for a human to perform, and most software is beyond that line. Any software that electronically communicates via computer components is automatically beyond that line.

      (1) Is it possible for the law to restrict thought itself? If a person sits motionless and does in fact carry out some patented software mentally, has he infringed the patent? Has he violated the law by thinking a legally prohibited sequence of thoughts??? Hopefully you find this not merely absurd, but find it to be a horrifying legal concept. Thought crime.

      Check out the very last paragraph of MPEP 2105.

      2105

      Is there anything novel, anything non-obvious, anything inventive, about taking the blatantly obvious step of using a computer simply to speed up those calculations and mental steps?

      Check out MPEP 2144.04 III.

      2144.04

      Of course, sending email is NOT "automating previously mental steps", nor is the system to do so "merely a number". Sending email is not possible without using computer system, therefore it couldn't be a manual process. The fact that the system's software could be represented as a number is irrelevant - it could also be considered a work of literary art, or printed as a tile mosaic and appreciated in a museum. It would be patentable because of what it DOES, unlike a number, poem, or pretty picture.

      Of course, I'm not arguing that software patents are valid. A quick glance at MPEP 2106 reveals that software per se is indeed nonstatutory. I am trying to be as informative as possible and expose how complex this issue really is.

      And I thoroughly enjoyed your post.

    27. Re:Been thinking about this lately... by jelle · · Score: 1

      Copyright protection does not exclude patent protection.

      Why can the same algorithm be patentable when it's laid out in transistors, but not patentable if it's stored on the memory chip that is used as a program for a processor, which also is laid out in transistors.

      When you say hardware is a thing and software is a free expression of ideas, then given that a patent covers an 'invention', that would make software be patentable if the ideas expressed in them are sufficiently novel and nonobvious to be an invention. As for hardware designs, the design may contain ideas good enough to be an invention, but the mass-production of the touchable hardware that is done from the design files does not contain any inventions to produce the end result.

      The problem with patents is not that patents are granted on things that 'ought to be unpatentable', but that patents are granted on (simple) ideas or discoveries, while they should be granted only on actual inventions. The way to fix it is to teach people (both the uspto people and patent applicants) the difference between an invention and an idea, and the difference between an invention and a discovery.

      My point is that patentability is not defined by whether or not it's performed in hardware or software, both are equally (non) patentable. If it's an invention for a function of a device, it is patentable. Software eventually results in a (sub)function of a device, hence is patentable.

      If things written in a design file can not be patented, and the production of the silicon chip, pcb, sub-assembly, or such hardware is a straight-forward assembly-line type process. Then what is the invention that happens after creation of the design files that warrants a patent for the end product, but not for the design files?

      Besides that, many pieces of hardware these days are just dead sand and plastic without the software that it comes with. How can dead sand and plastic be patentable?

      --
      --- Hindsight is 20/20, but walking backwards is not the answer.
    28. Re:Been thinking about this lately... by Alsee · · Score: 1

      draws a line in the sand

      The Supreme Court said:

      when a claim containing a mathematical formula implements or applies that formula in a structure or process which, when considered as a whole, is performing a function which the patent laws were designed to protect (e.g., transforming or reducing an article to a different state or thing), then the claim satisfies the requirements of 101

      The function [process]patents were designed to protect is the novel and non-obvious physical processes upon physical materials. And to qualify for a patent it would have to qualify as novel and non-obvious under the assumption that the software involved had been well known 100-year-old software that for whatever reason nobody had bothered to use before.

      >These things are synonymous with software

      I had meant math, an equation, an algorithm, logic, and a series of mental steps were synymous with software. I had indeed considered adding a comment to exclude "numbers" from that list, but it would have made for akward wording so I left it off. Sorry about that.

      The fact that it would take millions of years is precisely why it would be considered impossible for a human.

      You clipped off my next sentence: In fact many software patents can be "run" mentally in a matter of minutes. The point being that software is either patentable or it isn't. Are you going to attempt to draw some imaginary line at software that takes more than 5 minutes to run mentally? At sofware that takes more than a day to run mentally? At software that takes more than a month to run mentally? And how long it takes to run is often determined by how much data you have. You can ZIP compress 3 bytes in a matter of seconds if you have have properly trained for the task. It would take you a Very Long Time to ZIP compress a 4Gig movie. So is zip compression unpatentable for short files, but patentable for long files because it is "impossible" to do mentally? That's nonsensical. Either logic steps are fundamentally patentable or they aren't. This has absolutely nothing to do with novelty or non-obviousness, it is purely a question of how much effort a person (or a team of people) are willing to put into running it mentally. There is no time or effort criteria for patentability.

      Sending email is not possible without using computer system, therefore it couldn't be a manual process.

      Where the "novelty" and "nonobviousness" lies in software, that computer can be replaced by a human staring at the inputs and doing the calculations and then manually entering the results through a suitable I/O interface. The insignifigant physical details of the implementation of a process patent are not relevant. The normal and obviously required interfaces between various elements of the patent are implied and generic.

      The fact that the system's software could be represented as a number is irrelevant

      I meant the software equals math function/logic/mental steps.

      The F-117A Nighthawk is too unstable to fly without computer control

      Only by virtue of timescale for doing the math. There is nothing inventive or patentable in the obvious step of using a computer simply to speed up the calculations.

      You could certainly patent the novel and non-obvious control surfaces etc, the ones that give it improved aerodynamic capabilities, the ones which are unstable and pysically unflyable without computers. A perfectly good physical object patent. You could even patent that physical design + the computer + software, but that would be counter productive. You already HAVE an invention outside the software, the more you say about software you are generally unneccesarily narrowing your patent.

      You just can't file a patent on math equations (software) alone. Someone publishing a bood (or a CD) with those equations (software) could not be infringing. Not unless they were selling the physical flaps and whatnot.

      how complex

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
    29. Re:Been thinking about this lately... by Alsee · · Score: 1

      Why can the same algorithm be patentable when it's laid out in transistors

      Incorrect. Integrated circuit designs (layout of transistors) has sui generis coverage essentially under the copyright law title. You can read up on it at Wikipedia. It is a funky varient of copyright, not a patent.

      When you say hardware is a thing and software is a free expression of ideas

      That was someone else. I jumped into the conversation.

      that would make software be patentable if the ideas expressed in them are sufficiently novel and nonobvious to be an invention.

      I already quoted the Supreme Court that software can be neither "novel" nor "nonobvious" for patent purposes. I will requote them:

      "Whether the algorithm was in fact known or unknown at the time of the claimed invention, as one of the 'basic tools of scientific and technological work,' it is treated as though it were a familiar part of the prior art"

      Before you object to that Supreme Court statement, consider this:

      A 100 digit number may certainly never have existed before (novel). A 100 digit number may certainly be non-obvious. A 100 digit number may certainly be useful. However a number is not an invention. A number is not patentable.

      Math is not an invention. An equation is not an invention. Logic is not an invention. A series of mental steps is not an invention. Algorithms are not an invention. Those things are all synonymous with software. Software is not an an invention. Virtually any programmer can tell you that software is a field of mathematics. Any programmer will tell you that software is nothing but a series of mental steps, that given enough time any software can eventually be run mentally.

      The problem with patents is not that patents are granted on things that 'ought to be unpatentable'

      No, the problem is indeed that a lower US court ran amuck and extened patents to the field of math.

      They did so contrary to established US law. They did so contrary to global accepted patent norms that the field of math (including software) was unpatentable. They did so in violation of Supreme Court rulings to the contrary.

      As I said last post, the problem is that the Supreme Court is quite busy and reviewing a stupid patent dispute to rule on the subject would probably mean bumping something important like civil rights case off the docket. It's very understandable that petty patent disputes are a low priority, but they have allowed the lower court to run amuck far too long and it has snowballed into an extensive problem and countless software patents. It's time for them to take up another case and affirm their prior rulings and affirm prior US law which consistantly and properly rejected software patents.

      If it's an invention for a function of a device, it is patentable.

      There are object patents and process patents. We have no dispute over object patents. As for process patents, the Supreme Court says:

      process which, when considered as a whole, is performing a function which the patent laws were designed to protect (e.g., transforming or reducing an article to a different state or thing), then the claim satisfies the requirements of 101.

      The function patent laws were designed to protect is the transforming or reducing an article to a different state or thing. The physical processing of a physical material.

      Software is a field of math, and like any other equation it cannot process anything physical. It can only "process" data. The only thing a computer can implement is a calculation.

      If things written in a design file can not be patented

      The design file itself, like software, can only be copyrighted. If your design file happens to describe a novel-non-obvious physical object, then that object may be an invention.

      Then what is the invention that happens after creation of the design

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
    30. Re:Been thinking about this lately... by back_pages · · Score: 1
      The function [process]patents were designed to protect is the novel and non-obvious physical processes upon physical materials.

      I'm afraid that simply isn't true. I'm not even sure what a "physical process" is. MPEP 2106 has a pretty lengthy and in-depth discussion of what is or is not a statutory process.

      The point being that software is either patentable or it isn't.

      Right, and software is not patentable.

      Are you going to attempt to draw some imaginary line at software that takes more than 5 minutes to run mentally?

      No, but software that performs a calculation that is "not reasonably possible" for a human to perform, and produces a tangible output (therefore requiring some hardware, which is something external to the software) is often statutory. For example, Finite Element Analysis (FEA) of a model with 10,000 nodes is not reasonably possible for a human to perform. A computer is the tool which enables the results to be produced. For analogy, it isn't impossible that a single human could seperate an entire plantation's wheat from the chaff, but a wheat thresher is an incredible invention that facilitates makes it possible. So too is a computer that computes the FEA and delivers the results.

      So is zip compression unpatentable for short files, but patentable for long files because it is "impossible" to do mentally?

      If you claimed your zip compression as an algorithm, that is nonstatutory for a number of reasons (including that a human could perform the steps.) If you similarly claimed zip compression but only on files larger than 1 million bytes, it would be nonstatutory for a number of reasons (but probably not because it could be performed by a human.) If you claimed zip compression where the input is read from a computer readable medium and the result is transmitted to some form of computer readable storage, you probably have a statutory claim.

      Either logic steps are fundamentally patentable or they aren't.

      Logic steps are not patentable. That is not what is at issue.

      The problem is that software, by virtue of being executed on a computer, interacts with the tangible world on some level. This makes it exceedingly difficult, in the realm of legal language, to distinguish between a computer controlled blast furnace and a web browser. Precious little case law exists to justify calling a claimed invention "software" just because we all know it is software (In re Sarkar).

      Where the "novelty" and "nonobviousness" lies in software, that computer can be replaced by a human staring at the inputs and doing the calculations and then manually entering the results through a suitable I/O interface.

      Novelty and nonobviousness are only two of four fundamental requirements for a patent. Again, while you and I both know that on an academic level, a computer doesn't do anything that a human cannot perform, but that argument is absurd outside of the classroom. For example, post your next reply without using a computer. In analogous technology, an airplane doesn't do anything a human can't do - if you hold your body in the right shape run really fast, you'll fly. Once airborne, simply kick your legs as though you were swimming, except much faster. You'll be flying in no time. Similarly, render a simple 30 second scene from your favorite 3D FPS game by hand, following the same algorithm. Although either are technically possible, both are absurd and meaningless outside of the classroom, and especially in a court room.

      There is nothing inventive or patentable in the obvious step of using a computer simply to speed up the calculations.

      Without the computer, the airplane is nonfunctional. Also, you are using the definition of "obvious" found in the dictionary, which has almost nothing to do with "obvious" regarding patents. You clearly have some background with the patent system, but I don't know how much, so here's a quick explanation. "Obvious" with regard t

    31. Re:Been thinking about this lately... by jelle · · Score: 1

      I wasn't talking about the masks, creation of which is only a small step in the mass-production of the ICs.

      But, whatever. I'm fed up now.

      --
      --- Hindsight is 20/20, but walking backwards is not the answer.
    32. Re:Been thinking about this lately... by Alsee · · Score: 1

      I'm not even sure what a "physical process" is.

      A good begining is the quote I gave from the Supreme Court: function which the patent laws were designed to protect (e.g., transforming or reducing an article to a different state or thing)

      I don't remember what court it was, but a very good definition is teaching how to harness the physical forces of nature.

      MPEP 2106

      Guidelines purely in line with the lower court felt like REVERSING established law. I don't have a link handy, but you can simply turn to the prior guidelines and established law for an entire set of definitions and legal framework that consistantly and properly rejected any attempt to patent software. Law reviewed and affirmed by the Supreme Court.

      I am not trying to make up some new rules to exclude software. I am saying we HAD rules that properly define math as non-patentable, and that that is STILL the law. That the entire MPEP 2106 framework is based on a court improperly REVERSING the rules, based on a violation of Supreme Court rulings. That the Supreme Court simply has not taken a case since then and tossed out that reversal as invalid. That the MPEP 2106 the rest of the "new" system and software patents are null and void. I am merely saying valid law is the same old system we used to have.

      For example, Finite Element Analysis (FEA) of a model with 10,000 nodes is not reasonably possible for a human to perform.

      If you think that is an invention then you are in direct violation of the Supreme Court!

      "Whether the algorithm was in fact known or unknown at the time of the claimed invention, as one of the "basic tools of scientific and technological work," it is treated as though it were a familiar part of the prior art.

      Finite Element Analysis (FEA) of a model with 10,000 nodes IS FAMILIAR PRIOR ART. It is not an invention. it is not patentable.

      Yes, tt would take A Very Long Time to calculate it with a human brain. So what? "Reasonable time" has nothing to do with patentablility. The point is that it teaches nothing that cannot be done through thought. It teaches math. It teaches a series of mental steps.

      Math is not an invention. Mental steps are not inventions. To get a patent you must teach an invention.

      For analogy, it isn't impossible that a single human could seperate an entire plantation's wheat from the chaff, but a wheat thresher is an incredible invention that facilitates makes it possible.

      A patent on a wheat thresher teaches how to build a wheat thresher. It is not teaching math. It is not teaching a series of thoughts. It is teaching how to build a novel and non-obvious physical invention. Perfectly patentable.

      So too is a computer that computes the FEA and delivers the results.

      Sure, if you were teaching how to build a computer.

      Guess what? We already HAVE computers. They are existing prior art. All the FEA teaches is math. Math which the Supreme Court states is to be treated as familiar prior art. And it is blindingly obvious to use a computer to speed up the calculation of familiar prior art math.

      The first person to use familiar prior art in an obvious way is not entitled to a patent on it.

      If you claimed zip compression where the input is read from a computer readable medium and the result is transmitted to some form of computer readable storage, you probably have a statutory claim.

      Under the confusing Diamond v Deihr majority ruling, yes it probably passes the statutory subject matter hurdle. And this is exactly where the lower federal court went wrong. Passing that SINGLE hurdle is not enough to make it as patentable.

      Going back to Flook: once that algorithm is assumed to be within the prior art... Even though a phenomenon of nature or mathematical formula may be well known, an inventive application of the principle may be patented. Conversely, the discove

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
  8. Democracy? by GeffDE · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I don't believe that the European Commission negated any sort of democracy. Before I get mugged by a bunch of open-sourcers, I must say that I completely agree with the harsh language and condemnatory tone of the article, as well as with the idea of open source. However, a democracy cannot be negated; the fact is, a democracy is a form of government where the people as a whole have the final say. That is obviously not the case, as the European Commission as a whole (and the Microsoft puppet and failed Prime Minister of Portugal specifically) was able to have the "final" say. I find it really petty when people try to get a reaction out of people by using incorrect words that have a strong connotation (like freedom, liberty, democracy) instead of using the correct terminology.

    --
    It has been a nervous year, with people beginning to feel like Christian Scientists with appendicitis.
    1. Re:Democracy? by codehelp · · Score: 2, Informative

      I don't believe that the European Commission negated any sort of democracy.

      The Commission is intent on ignoring the democratic will of the parliament.

      However, a democracy cannot be negated; the fact is, a democracy is a form of government where the people as a whole have the final say.

      In this case, the elected representatives of the people are being ignored and unelected ministers will have the final say - that's negating the democratic process.

      The European Commission is not directly elected - it is not accountable to the people, that's the job of our MEP - member of the European Parliament. The MEP's have spoken and have requested the restart - the Commission is dictating their will against the express desires of the elected parliament.

    2. Re:Democracy? by Chordonblue · · Score: 1

      I'll bet you didn't like the way the 2000 presidential election turned out either did you?

      First of all, there IS no true democracy. We are all 'represented'. Yeah, right. Now if you can swallow that, think about this:

      'Thwarting intent' is NOT the same as breaking the law. The Commission was empowered by the Parliament with the included bybass rule. Sure, it sucks, but the PEOPLE VOTED FOR THE SYSTEM. Just like in 2000 - the system worked. You might not have liked HOW it worked or WHO was elected, but there was no revolution, no coup.

      --
      "...Well, there's egg and bacon; egg sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg bacon and spam; egg bacon sausage and spam..."
    3. Re:Democracy? by adrianbaugh · · Score: 1

      Did they? Please tell me when, exactly, as a European, I specifically voted to have a moderately-dictarorial-but-thankfully-not-too-mali gnant Commission in charge? No? Perhaps you could tell me when I (a Briton) had a realistic choice between two parties, one of which wanted to sign up to Europe or remain within it, and the other of which didn't?
      The {EEC|EC|EU} happened because it was an inevitability after the war and with regard to the Soviet threat, but the organisations by which it is governed are not all democratic in a meaningful sense. To invoke Godwin's law: you may as well say that the Nazis under Hitler were democratic because they were voted into power in 1933.

      --
      "'I pass the test,' she said. 'I will diminish, and go into the West, and remain Galadriel.'"
      - JRR Tolkien.
    4. Re:Democracy? by RWerp · · Score: 1

      The problem with the accountability of the European Commission is that it is negotiated by the governments, but accepted by someone else - the Parliament. The governments take a long time in agreeing to who will be the presidents, negotiating with the man over which country will get which commission, and then the whole structure is presented to the Parliament. Now, if the Parliament finds some flaws in the Commission, which would cause a similarly flawed cabinet fail to obtain acceptance of a national parliament (in most Europe, cabinets have to be voted through the Parliament, unlike the Secretaries nominated by the US President), it can't really trash the commission, if the flaw is not big enough, because the governments would say "we've been through all these negotiations to get a working compromise, and now you'd ruin it all??"

      Another problem is, that elections to the EP are a bit weird, because people often vote for parties not based on how these parties acted in the EP, but on how these parties acted in the national parliament at home. This gives the Euro-MPs freedom to do whatever they want, because voters at home do not react to this too often. Insted, national parties join "fractions" in the EP and act according to the policies of those fractions, which is not always identical with what their voters would like to see.

      --
      "Long run is a misleading guide to current affairs. In the long run we are all dead." (John Maynard Keynes)
    5. Re:Democracy? by BlueWonder · · Score: 1
      I'll bet you didn't like the way the 2000 presidential election turned out either did you?

      I'm not an American, so I'm not sure how the US political system works. Does the US president have the power to enact laws without involving Congress in any way? If yes, I would indeed conclude that the US is not a democracy according to my understanding of a democracy. If no, your analogy is flawed.

    6. Re:Democracy? by Chordonblue · · Score: 1

      There are certainly things the president can do without asking Congress about it first. BUT - those same things were authorized in advance at some point.

      Is it not democracy unless a time limit is instituted?

      --
      "...Well, there's egg and bacon; egg sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg bacon and spam; egg bacon sausage and spam..."
    7. Re:Democracy? by BlueWonder · · Score: 2, Informative
      There are certainly things the president can do without asking Congress about it first.

      I didn't ask about "things", I asked about enacting laws. Note that while a EU directive is not a law, the EU member countries are required to transform it into a national law, so it has the same power as a law.

      To answer my own question: Some web searching has revealed that the US president cannot enact laws without involving Congress.

    8. Re:Democracy? by Buran · · Score: 1

      Nope, s/he can't. Your searches were right.

      The House of Representatives has to introduce all bills. The president can only veto, or not, legislation presented to him/her. But the House and Senate can override the veto by an appropriate margin.

      Also look up "checks and balances" to see how the different branches are supposed to kick each other in the ass if they get stupid. It used to work real well til the executive branch started getting REALLY stupid (and then whining, when smacked, about "activist judges").

    9. Re:Democracy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, you are quite wrong here. A *MAJORITY* of people *DO NOT WANT SOFWARE PATENTS*. They are fundamentally wrong. This unelected man went against their wishes. If he were a king, his crown would be removed --via guillotine. If he was a president, he would be impeached. If he was a CEO, he would be placed by the board "on emergency and permanent stress leave". He went against the wishes of the majority. OUT! As for being a puppet of Microsoft, the term fits perfectly. If you want another description though, then "Paid Toady" comes to mind. "Faithful Employee" is another. Either way, he was paid by Microsoft, to serve Microsoft's interests, and not the interests of the majority.

    10. Re:Democracy? by KontinMonet · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Not only have they ignored the EP, they have ignored the EP's Conference of Presidents; the European Council; other Commissioners; the express will of at least 6 national parliaments; constant representation by, for example, the body representing SMEs (11 million businesses employing 70 million people) and any number of MEPs; the legal committee (JURI); the normal processes and procedures concerning directives; and precedent.

      It is simply the willfulness of one man (the Irish rep McCreevy peeping out of Sir Billy's pocket) and the Commission president negating any form of democratic will.

      --
      Did he inhale?
    11. Re:Democracy? by irote · · Score: 1

      He's not the failed prime minister of Portugal. He was prime minister of Portugal until he was offered the job of President of the European Commission. He accepted it. He thought it was a better job. By all accounts his term as PM was quite successful. Would you regard yourself as a failure if you were poached away from your small web design company with a job offer from IBM?

    12. Re:Democracy? by GeffDE · · Score: 1

      I was simply quoting the article on that one. Maybe if you didn't succumb to /.itis, you would RTFA before posting.

      --
      It has been a nervous year, with people beginning to feel like Christian Scientists with appendicitis.
  9. OK by marcello_dl · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Time to send another round of complaint emails to EU... er... representatives.

    Patent laws: made for the benefit of little inventors, opposed by little inventors, pushed by big corporations. Something is quite wrong.

    --
    ---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
    1. Re:OK by Dr.Dubious+DDQ · · Score: 1
      Patent laws: made for the benefit of little inventors[...]

      Correction - made for the benefit of the PUBLIC, who are the ones collectively paying with the rights-restricting monopoly grant for the information in the patent filings. The intention is to convince an inventor to share the details of how his or her (or, these days, "its" e.g. corporations) invention works so that it can be built on, rather than keep his/her/its invention a "trade secret". The limited-time monopoly on the patented invention's use is the "payment" that the inventor gets in return for the information.

      I still say that if something cannot convincingly be kept as a trade secret, then it has no place on a patent application as the patent has no value to the public.

      Or at least, that's the way it SHOULD work...

    2. Re:OK by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I did. I voted for the liberals and they (well, not because of me) asked our minister of justice (ex soccer player and must gotten kicked in the head one to many times) about this and he responded that he want to get this bill passed. He is from the social democrats and should be on the peoples side first but this guy was a public defender before so he always stand on the bad guys side no matter what. I am thinking of hunger striking or something like that. I think something drastic like that have to be made or else nothing will happen. The MPs and the ministers and all the rest are too corrupted these days so unless someone is willing to sacrifce themselfs, ABSOLUTLY nothing will happen.

  10. In the name by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    In the name of the Portuguese people: sorry.

    But we had to get him out of here!

    1. Re:In the name by tuggy · · Score: 1

      i subscribe that :P

    2. Re:In the name by Dehumanizer · · Score: 1

      Agreed!

      It makes me wonder, though - who were the RETARDS who chose Barroso to head the EC? Didn't they *know* him? Didn't they notice he was universally disliked in Portugal? Didn't they *talk* to him first? That guy is and always was an idiot (though Santana Lopes is even worse).

      --
      The Tlog - a technology blog
    3. Re:In the name by JoaoPinheiro · · Score: 1

      I subscribe to that as well.

      It could be worse though... Imagine it was Santana Lopes occupying that place!

    4. Re:In the name by fsmunoz · · Score: 1

      Eh, just another "me to!" post.

      This also serves as a good reminder of how noble things like patriotism and loyalty to one's country (both of which I are deeply ingrained in me) can be - and almost always are - used just as a decoy to further someone's agenda. Most of the world missed (and justly so...) how the whole debate about Durão Barroso's going away to Brussels was shrouded in "it's good for the Motherland!" silly propaganda that attacked anyone disagreing on the actual advantages of having a portuguese EU president with which they disagree, or simple didn't think he should leave the PM position, as "unpatriotic".

      Pfff. Most politicians around here are so attracted to the nice EU blinkenlights that they would sell Lisbon just to get a shiny place in the EU and pretend they actually matter.

      On the other hand, I guess this is the only way to be referenced in /. . Maybe in some twisted and sick way the "it will give the country visibility" mantra actually is true.

    5. Re:In the name by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How Americans did choose that retarded Bush as their president? simple answer: because he was less retarded than John Kerry.
      The same goes here. Barroso was les retarded than others. There is not too much choice these days!

    6. Re:In the name by Perky_Goth · · Score: 1

      Alma mater!

      silly but true. i wonder how many of the idiots who put up flags outside of their house during the Euro voted? or actually informed themselves about the issues?

      like, 5%? democracy is doomed :)

    7. Re:In the name by Bothari · · Score: 1

      ..Melhor eles que nós... 'péra aí!!...

      It's a pitty there isn't a "European President" yet to fire him :P (Durão's replacement got his ass kicked out of office by the President)

    8. Re:In the name by hugo_pt · · Score: 1

      I subscribe too :)

  11. Thank you, Poland! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As someone who should hold a patent on a $500,000 instrument, but got shut out by "secrecy laws", I thank the Poles who interrupted the juggernaut and got us to this state. A toast!

  12. Thanks for not... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Thanks for not editorializing the news. I especially like how the presentation was fair and balanced.

    1. Re:Thanks for not... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good idea, I'd like to thank Microsoft for not editorializing our legal framework. I especially like how their software patent directive was fair and balanced with particular concessions to European SME's.

  13. What in the world!!! by revery · · Score: 4, Funny

    per the suggestion of a Microsoft puppet

    You will never replace Jim Henson, Mr. Gates... do you hear me?!?!?!! WELL, DO YOU!!?!?

    Man, first I quit taking methamphetamines, and now this... If it wasn't for my talking sofa and the giant fat men, I don't think I'd make it through some days...

    --

    I have no idea what inspired this comment.

    1. Re:What in the world!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Don't look now...the swedish delegate just said "sooftware pateents are juuust a teeny veet eeevil bork bork bork!!!"

    2. Re:What in the world!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fat men from space? http://www.alaska.net/~royce/JPEGs/fmfs.jpg

    3. Re:What in the world!!! by mikael · · Score: 2, Funny

      per the suggestion of a Microsoft puppet

      You haven't seen sock puppet Bill.

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
    4. Re:What in the world!!! by zooblethorpe · · Score: 1
      Man, first I quit taking methamphetamines, and now this... If it wasn't for my talking sofa and the giant fat men, I don't think I'd make it through some days...

      Oh, so you live in Japan now? Oh, wait, you didn't say talking toilet or talking toaster... (^^;)

      --
      "What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
      "A four-foot prune."
    5. Re:What in the world!!! by mikael · · Score: 1

      That should have been Sock puppet Bill

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
  14. "someone who failed as Portuguese prime minister" by JohnGrahamCumming · · Score: 3, Funny

    Yeah, well, you try it. It's not all hanging about on the Algarve and drinking 25 year old Port, you know?

    John.

  15. antidisestablishmentarianism by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This is confusing. "NoSoftwarePatents.com" wants "no software patents". The EU has stopped legislation that would have created SW patents several times. Every time the laws get stopped, the process gets restarted, and SW patents become possible again. This time, the EU has stopped the restart - which would seem to stop the patents. So why is NSP.com against it? What am I missing? Would *this* time through the process somehow explicitly produce a "no patents" law, which would stop it "once and for all"?

    --

    --
    make install -not war

    1. Re:antidisestablishmentarianism by DaveJay · · Score: 1

      I believe (someone else correct me if I'm wrong) that without the restart, the clock doesn't STOP, it just keeps on ticking. So, if it takes (just guessing here) six months of hearings to get the patent legistlation passed, and we're three months through it right now, restart == six months before possible legislation passed, and no restart == three months before possible legislation passed.

      Hope that helps (and that it's accurate, although I obviously pulled the timeframes out of my behind)

    2. Re:antidisestablishmentarianism by Carewolf · · Score: 2, Informative

      Because with the lack of a restart we not only retain status quo which has software patents in obscure terms, but also means the commision can keep trying to press the legislation through as a secret A-item.

    3. Re:antidisestablishmentarianism by peragrin · · Score: 5, Informative

      You are right , No software patents doesn' want software patents and you don't understand either.

      It's confusing so I will screw some of this up.

      A law was propsed. It got shot down in parliment, The EC picked it up, and tried to ram it through anyway, it got shot down and sent back to the begining of the process to be rewritten. the EC ignored that and is trying to shove it through again.

      Somebody wants this law so badly they will bend and break any EU rule they can to get this software patent legistaltion through.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    4. Re:antidisestablishmentarianism by One+Louder · · Score: 4, Insightful
      This time they're ignoring the "reset" button and barrelling ahead with the previous proposal. The process has not actually stopped this time, just suspended a little bit.

      As an American I'm torn - if the EU does not have software patents, they'll easily pull ahead of the United States in the software arena while we litigate ourselves into irrelevancy. However, I'd much rather see the playing field made level by eliminating our own software and business method patents then burden the Europeans with the same yoke.

    5. Re:antidisestablishmentarianism by Edgewize · · Score: 2, Informative

      "Restart" in this case does not mean that the process is currently stopped. The process is currently being rammed through by the EC, even though it appears to be against just about everyone's wishes. NoSoftwarePatents.com and others are trying to buy more time before the EC succeeeds in bypassing the will of the people.

    6. Re:antidisestablishmentarianism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      They stopped the restart, so the previous draft laughably called a "compromise" from the council will now be put forward for a second reading (unless the council decides not to - which it might, in an effort to spin it as "see, we're not an antidemocratic corporatist whoretank").

      The "compromise" from the council (under the Irish presidency - remember that Microsoft, Intel and IBM basically 0wn Ireland) erased all the european parliament's amendments that would have at least granted patent exemption for interoperability (so that, say, Samba or OpenOffice could continue to exist...).

      At a second reading, the european parliament needs an absolute majority rather than a majority of people in parliament on the day to make any changes. This is harder to get, for obvious reasons, and once the date for the parliamentary debate is known, various ministers will be invited to various functions by corporate types...

      No, I have no idea why it's set up that way, unless it's to give some illusion of democracy when the EU is really designed solely for bilderberger-set corporations or something.

      Either way, I won't be obeying any patent law any time soon if they pass this directive (which will then allow the same national governments who appoint people to the council to implement the law and blame it on "those damn bureaucrats in brussels" - a favorite trick in britain in particular, if you want a law that your citizenry would reject coming from you, get Europe to do it...).

    7. Re:antidisestablishmentarianism by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 3, Funny

      I'm American, and I'm hoping that the EU can keep itself free from the patent monopoly biz. Because that will keep another productive source of software for me to use (and not patent :), and because their increased efficiency will create competition, the only factor that has ever gotten American business to improve. We've been goading Europe further into freedom for centuries by providing competion. The whole idea was an *investment* in an unstoppable process. Now we've got to reap the returns, as America sinks into the fatuous complacency we've developed after years at the top. Or we can move to France :).

      --

      --
      make install -not war

    8. Re:antidisestablishmentarianism by jd · · Score: 2, Informative

      In the tradition of long words, the EU Commission is attempting to turn the vetos of software patents into so much floccinoccinilihilipilification.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    9. Re:antidisestablishmentarianism by Seigen · · Score: 1
      It would seem to me that countries with the less strict rules and expenses be it copyrights, patents, labor laws, pollution laws, whatever is where the jobs go. That doesn't mean they are good jobs or anything like that, merely that it is cheaper to have work done over there since they don't have to follow the same rules. That seems to me to be the fundamental problem with free trade. If it is not balanced with incentives to equalize work and legal conditions then places like China get much of the business.

      Now I'd tend to argue that patents probably are no longer a net benefit since they lock up technology. Companies will still develop new technologies without them, since they want to sell them, and as for the little guy, well I rather doubt many of them could ever survive a patent lawsuit anyway. I suppose a case could be made for helping smaller companies, but even then its dubious. Also the counter argument can be made that small companies and invididuals can be more competitive if they have access to some of the vast array of patented technologies without paying exorbent licensing fees.

      Overall big companies can and will crush small companies by the simple method of underpricing them out of business till they die, and I don't think patents will stop this, unless it is just so specific that a competing product is impossible. They seem more of a tool to aid in the crushing.

    10. Re:antidisestablishmentarianism by iabervon · · Score: 4, Informative

      First of all, software patents are not currently prohibited in the EU. The EU does not yet have a position on them, and the EU patent office grants them; they are valid in some countries and not in others, and they are effectively valid in some where they are not strictly valid, due to allowing patents on which don't specify what they apply to to apply to software, despite it not being allowed to specifically apply them to software. Obviously, the current situation is a complete mess, and the EU Commission has called for a directive to resolve it, since that's the Commission's job.

      The process started with a directive that would permit software patents. After much discussion and popular outcry from individuals and small and medium-sized businesses, the Parliament amended the directive to prohibit software patents, and passed the resulting version.

      The Council (which is composed of people appointed by the democratically-elected governments of the member countries, rather than directly elected individuals), on the other hand, set aside the amendments and passed the original version of the directive, and then claimed that they had reached agreement with the Parliament.

      The Commission is supposed to determine what, exactly, the Council and the Parliament have done. They keep trying to sign off on the process without a vote, on the theory that the Council and Parliament agree (on the Council version). Various Commission members have kept this from happening. Meanwhile, various committees of the Parliament have been calling for the entire thing to start over, and the Commission has been ignoring them. Furthermore, the support in the Council for the version is eroding as national parliaments send instructions to their government's representatives not to support it.

      So the current status is: the legality of SW patents in Europe is current ambiguous and nobody wants to leave it this way; the resolution currently on the table permits SW patents; the Council is refusing requests from the Parliament to restart the process from scratch, which would permit an anti-SW-patent result.

    11. Re:antidisestablishmentarianism by spun · · Score: 2, Informative

      You do mean floccinoccinihilipilification, the act of estimating something as worthless, right? (there are only two 'ili' in there, not three.)

      Okay, I admit that I had to look that up on google. :-)

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    12. Re:antidisestablishmentarianism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      The EU position is only "ambiguous" because the EPO reinterpreted "as such" in "computer programs as such cannot be patented" to mean that it was okay to patent all instances of programs in the real world, because the program "as such" is an abstract construct.

      Really, any sane reading of EU law would already prohibit software patents, it's just the EPO wanted to extend its empire. If you ask me, the Dutch should kick the anti-free-market fuckers out and so should all the other EU countries. Patents, by definition, are restraint of trade by government-granted monooply, exactly the sort of crap the EU was supposed to combat.

    13. Re:antidisestablishmentarianism by cortana · · Score: 5, Informative

      For a simple flow chart demonstrating the wonder of modern, simple, transparent government, attend http://europa.eu.int/comm/codecision/stepbystep/di agram_en.htm.

      AFAIK, Poland has stopped the law getting as far as 5 twice, and Denmark(?) once. Then the Parliament's legal affairs comitte (JURI) decided almost unanimously that the legislation should be scrapped. But the commission doesn't actually have to listen to the democratic parts of the EU, so now we are at 9-10.

      If we are very lucky, MEPs will be angered by the comission's undemocratic actions and reject the common position at 11. Unfortunatly this requires a 70% absolute majority, meaning that 70% of all MEPs (not just those who turn up) have to vote against the legislation. If this happens then we will be proceed to 15, and the European software industry will be saved.

      Write to your MEP today! Even if they are neutral on the SWPat issues, they are likely to be angry at how the commission is trying to ignore the entire parliamentry institution.

    14. Re:antidisestablishmentarianism by cortana · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Whoops! We're not facing a second reading by the parliament (11) just yet. From http://wiki.ffii.org/Com050228En:

      "In the mean time, highly placed government sources have also confirmed that the directive will once more appear as an A-item on 7 March, this time on the agenda of the responsible Competition Council formation. All hope for a democratic and balanced resolution now rests on the shoulders of the ministers and officials who will attend that Council meeting."

      Like the article says, get in contact with whichever part of your government will be attending the Competition Council meeting: for UK readers, I believe that is these people: http://www.competition-commission.org.uk/footer/co ntact_points.htm.

      Competition Commission
      Victoria House
      Southampton Row
      London
      WC1B 4AD

      Although I doubt it will be possible to change Labour's mind on the issue, council decisions must be unanimous; that's how Poland and Denmark(?) managed to block the decisions before.

    15. Re:antidisestablishmentarianism by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 2, Interesting

      This conflict also has the effect of demonstrating to Europeans (and the world) that Europe has created an antidemocratic superstructure that can foil the popular will, even though it's expressed through a representative republic - the EP. Which should be shocking news to many of the hundreds of millions of Europeans, and the many millions more knocking at the gates for membership. Before everyone is living under an entrenched system of autocracy accessible only to corporations and privileged oligarchs, like the traditional Europe that generated two world wars, and which we have in the US in all but name, it's time to get the outrage stoked, and this sham destroyed. Or we'll all be stuck with it for the rest of our lives.

      --

      --
      make install -not war

    16. Re:antidisestablishmentarianism by cortana · · Score: 1

      Believe me I've tried. Unfortunatly most people don't give a shit. They seem to think it's much more important that we waste dozens of man-years and million of taxpayers' pounds making fox hunting illegal. FOR FUCK'S SAKES. Now I'm angry again. :/

    17. Re:antidisestablishmentarianism by elgaard · · Score: 1

      I does not work that way.
      Nothing would stop US companies from developing products violating all kinds of US patents and selling those products in Europe. Likewise european companies could still not sell their products on the US market if they violated US patents.

      So US companies would not be shipping jobs out of the country.

      But upstart companies in Europe would have the advantage of a better home market.

    18. Re:antidisestablishmentarianism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You rock. that was the clearest explanation I've ever heard.

    19. Re:antidisestablishmentarianism by ploss · · Score: 1

      Haha but then won't it be funny when the big US corps pass a law that says in effect, 'no importation of possible patent-infringing source'? That's when you buy your plane ticket and sell your house.

      --
      What are the odds that some idiot will name his mutex ether-rot-mutex!
    20. Re:antidisestablishmentarianism by Tough+Love · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Somebody wants this law so badly they will bend and break any EU rule they can to get this software patent legistaltion through.

      None other than Bill Gates. There is a reason he showed up in Brussels the day before the JURI commission was to decide whether the process should be restarted or not. There is a reason that Charlie McCreevy, former head of the Commission and now self-appointed leader of the committee that decides whether to take such steps as ignore the unanimous direction of the European Parliament to restart the process, dances on the end of Bill's string. What is this reason? As former minister of finance of Ireland, and Microsoft being the largest taxpayer in Ireland, Bill Gates paid McCreevy's paycheck. Bill Gates probably still pays McCreevy's paycheck. There is a reason for everything.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    21. Re:antidisestablishmentarianism by KontinMonet · · Score: 1

      Actually, it's the favourite trick of France. Speech of Chris Huhne MEP to European Commission:

      "If you look at the latest single market scoreboard (2004), France is the worst EU member state for directives that are overdue by more than two years. It has 9 overdue, more than twice the number of Germany or Britain.

      France also has the longest delay of any EU member state in implementing directives after their deadline, with an average of 14 months, more than double the time of the UK, Sweden, Finland or Denmark.

      And France has the worst record of any member state when it comes to open infringement cases for breach of EU law: 220 cases at the last count compared with 200 in Italy, 136 in Germany and 121 in Britain."

      --
      Did he inhale?
    22. Re:antidisestablishmentarianism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is no EU patent office - the EPO is a European Patent Office which has nothing to do with the EU. You only have to look at their members list to realise that.

      Apart from that - your summary was pretty much OK

    23. Re:antidisestablishmentarianism by Husgaard · · Score: 2, Informative
      First of all, software patents are not currently prohibited in the EU.
      Software patents are illegal according to the national laws of all the EU member countries.
      The EU does not yet have a position on them, and the EU patent office grants them; they are valid in some countries and not in others, and they are effectively valid in some where they are not strictly valid, due to allowing patents on which don't specify what they apply to to apply to software, despite it not being allowed to specifically apply them to software. Obviously, the current situation is a complete mess, and the EU Commission has called for a directive to resolve it, since that's the Commission's job.
      Like another reply stated, there is no EU patent office. The European Patent Office (EPO) is not (oficially) in any way related to the EU. Their taks is to administer the European Patent Convention (EPC). Both EU member countries and non-EU member countries have signed the EPC.

      The big problem is that EPO - illegally - has issued a huge number of software patents. Most estimate about 30-40,000 software patents.

      These patents are illegal. To this date not a single case of software patent infringement has been won in any court within the EU. People who start infringement cases risk having their software patents invalidated by the court, as they are illegal according to the law.

      The EU directive is meant to force the EU member countries to change their laws to legalize software patents, and the political pressure from the owners of the illegal software patents is huge.

      The process started with a directive that would permit software patents.
      Actually the process started a lot earlier. The EPO - who is outside political and judicial control - started issuing software patents even though they are not allowed to do so according to EPC article 52. Then EPO called for a diplomatic conference to have the EPC changed to legalize their conduct, but their request was denied. Later they called for another diplomatic conference with the same purpose, and once again their request was denied.

      It was not until after the second diplomatic conference that the EU commission proposed the directive.

      So the current status is: the legality of SW patents in Europe is current ambiguous and nobody wants to leave it this way; the resolution currently on the table permits SW patents; the Council is refusing requests from the Parliament to restart the process from scratch, which would permit an anti-SW-patent result.
      No. That is what the pro software patent lobby and the European Commission would like us to believe, but it is simply not true.

      Fact is that the law is perfectly clear: Software patents are illegal in all EU member countries, and most (all?) european countries that are not EU members.

    24. Re:antidisestablishmentarianism by Lars+T. · · Score: 1

      Err, but Google thinks it should be floccinaucinihilipilification.

      --

      Lars T.

      To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck

    25. Re:antidisestablishmentarianism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I read in an article in last week's Irish Times (paper version, don't know if it's in online version because it requires a subscription - and money) that Ireland has the most up-to-date Intellectual Property laws in Europe, if not the world (can't remember which, suspect it's the former).
      Who decides what's "up-to-date"? Is "up-to-date" a good thing?
      If you want to figure out the direction of Intellectual Property law in Europe, I reckon Ireland is a good place to start...

    26. Re:antidisestablishmentarianism by Alsee · · Score: 1

      We're on the same side, but I'd like to correct something:

      To this date not a single case of software patent infringement has been won in any court within the EU.

      I believe the first such case was for image enhancement software. There are only a limited number of EU software patents issues, and it is very rare for anyone to try to enforce them, and they are often thrown out as invalid, but not always. There have indeed been court rulings supporting them.

      The situation is indeed "ambigous" in that there are lawyers at times successfully arguing, and and judges at times upholding, some painfully tortuous logic that the "as such" clause of the EU patent convention punches a planet-sized hole in the explicit exclusion of software from patentability. I agree it is absurd, but it does indeed have enough court weight to qualify as "ambiguity".

      We do need to push through an EU patent directive to clarify and harminize the law. We just need to make sure it's the Parliment's directive explicitly exluding such patents. We need to cut the legs out from under the rediculous "as such" arguments.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
    27. Re:antidisestablishmentarianism by Husgaard · · Score: 1
      If you know of just a single court case in Europe where somebody has been convicted of infringement of a software patent, I am very interested. Even if you cannot give precise information I would be interested in which court in which country, the approximate time of the judgement, and what the case was about.

      To the best of my knowledge the only court decisions saying that some software patents may be legal are a few cases in Germany and England, and these cases have not been infringement cases.

    28. Re:antidisestablishmentarianism by Alsee · · Score: 1

      Hmmmmm... interesting. I did more digging. There are a number of court cases upholding software patents, but as far as I can tell none of them were actually infringment cases. Very very interesting. That could make for a very strong point in defeating the claim that the pro-software patent directive is NOT merely reflecting and harmonizing "existing practice". That it is in fact a REVERSAL of law.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
  16. More pressure needed on ministers and officials by codehelp · · Score: 5, Informative

    The reported reason was that if they do restart, they must produce a new text on which several other Directorate Generals (DG), such as Information Society and Competition, must agree as well. These other DG's would reportedly never support an extreme text such as the one currently on the table in the Council, or even the original Commission proposal from 2002. They would insist on a more balanced approach, which is apparently not desired by DG MARKT - Directorate General for the Internal Market.

    In the mean time, highly placed government sources have also confirmed to the FFII that the directive will once more appear as an A-item on 7 March, this time on the agenda of the responsible Competition Council formation. All hope for a democratic and balanced resolution now rests on the shoulders of the ministers and officials who will attend that Council meeting. Turning the directive back into a B-item, i.e. a discussion point, seems to be the only proper way out now.

    http://wiki.ffii.org/Com050228En

    Any celebrations about the directive being thrown out were premature - the BBC site for one got carried away:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4274811.stm
    The European Parliament has thrown out a bill that would have allowed software to be patented.

    We wish! The headline was more accurate than the sub-text:
    EU software patent law faces axe

    Faces, but the axe isn't falling yet.

    1. Re:More pressure needed on ministers and officials by replicant108 · · Score: 1

      Can someone who is informed about these matters please indicate how concerned citizens can help in getting the directive turned back into a B-item?

      Thanks in advance!

    2. Re:More pressure needed on ministers and officials by nchip · · Score: 1

      Who exactly are going to meat at march 7th? I assume it is ministers of X of each EU country?

      --
      signatures pending - ansa@kos.to - (dont mail there)
    3. Re:More pressure needed on ministers and officials by codehelp · · Score: 1

      Can someone who is informed about these matters please indicate how concerned citizens can help in getting the directive turned back into a B-item?

      The FFII are the main source of this kind of information. Consider joining the FFII and subscribing to a mailing list for your European government.

      The most important point is convincing people in all areas that more discussion is needed. Read the unilateral statement from Poland regarding the Council text: http://register.consilium.eu.int/pdf/en/04/st16/st 16120-ad02.en04.pdf

      Getting replies from even supportive MEP's takes time - but MEP's won't be making this decision.

      The people to contact now are MPs and ministers (and heads of party etc.) in your local European government and get them to issue public statements. We have to show that adopting an A-item (i.e., a non-discussion point) on 7 March at the Competition Council is not an option.

      The Swedish liberals are asking for a B-item in the Council
      http://wiki.ffii.org/Selib0502En.
      We need to get a similar request from the Liberal Democrats or possibly even some Labour or Conservative MPs in the UK. If you live outside the UK (but within Europe) other European politicians should also be persuaded to allow discussion on the directive.

  17. Re:I wish i had a patent on worthless organization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    It's not worthless. It certainly looks like it'll generate some value for its buyers.

  18. Seriously by October_30th · · Score: 5, Insightful
    A wannabe Napoleon who heads the Commission and a Microsoft puppet that runs the DG (directorate general) in charge have decided to negate democracy.

    With unhinged comments like that he's never going end up anywhere else than in the populist fringe.

    --
    The owls are not what they seem
    1. Re:Seriously by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      While I quite agree with you...

      What if he is a wannabe Napoleon, and the other guy is a Microsoft puppet?

      Lately things have been getting so bad that when somebody says the truth, they get shouted down for extremism.

    2. Re:Seriously by eddiegee · · Score: 3, Insightful
      With unhinged comments like that he's never going end up anywhere else than in the populist fringe.

      Congratulations! Your phrase "populist fringe" has won the Best New Oxymoron award! It will now join the ranks of such timeless classics as "military intelligence", "compassionate conservative" and "Microsoft Works"

    3. Re:Seriously by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's fine by me as long as the populist fringe are executing these trecherous little fuckers!

    4. Re:Seriously by northcat · · Score: 1

      So you want everyone to pussyfoot around the real issues like a corporate whore?

    5. Re:Seriously by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe my perceptions of Europeans politics are wrong, but they do things differently there. Back when I watched TV, it was fun for a while to watch British parlament "debate". I often wished Americans had such a colorful system.

    6. Re:Seriously by October_30th · · Score: 1
      So the alternatives are: a) Be a corporate whore and b) Spout idealistic and uncompromising stuff, which may get you points amongst the believers, but that will only hurt your efforts of getting the message across to the people who really matter.

      As in any political endeavour, the solution is to learn the language and how to compromise and make mutually beneficial deals.

      --
      The owls are not what they seem
  19. "Microsoft puppet" is a stupid comment? by morcheeba · · Score: 1

    That was the only way I could figure out the meaning of that sentence! I couldn't remember if restarting was good or bad...

  20. Re:"someone who failed as Portuguese prime ministe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    This guy left Algarve to go to Brussels??? What could drive someone to do such a thing?

  21. No Banana Union ?! by D4C5CE · · Score: 4, Informative

    Meanwhile, one of the Directive's key supporters, the German Federal Ministry of Justice, has reportedly received approximately 500 bananas, shipped in more than 150 parcels, from constituents appalled by what they consider "banana republic style" disrespect for the national and European parliaments.

  22. Due Dilligence... by Chordonblue · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Perhaps companies that try to patent blatantly unpatentable things should be punished somehow - like a fine or a period of time where they can't patent anything for a while.

    This such a thing as barratry with lawyers after all.

    --
    "...Well, there's egg and bacon; egg sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg bacon and spam; egg bacon sausage and spam..."
  23. Sigh by Turn-X+Alphonse · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I'd like to say "keep fighting it", but lets face it, if 1 or 2 countries keep fighting it they'll just make some new law which lets them ignore 1-2 people being against it so they can just force it through.

    Very similar to the hunting ban in the UK, the lords didn't want to ban it so the Government used an act ment for emergencies to force it through and get their way. Surely the EU have a clause which can do the same in some form..

    --
    I like muppets.
    1. Re:Sigh by tarquin_fim_bim · · Score: 0

      Rather the opposite I'd say. But, how can you compare corporate greed with subjecting defenceless animals to a horrible death.....no wait..

    2. Re:Sigh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not the best comparison.

      Software patents are a near invisible issue to the general public, but are very big news to big corporations who are lobbying the EU about it.

      Fox hunting ban was never an important issue but made a for easy news fodder. It was simply a treat offered to the extreme left of the labour party to keep them happy while Bliar walked over what the Labour party actually stood for. In the end it became a huge farce and a joke with vast amounts of parlimentary time waste debating it.

      The software patents issue is a really important issue, unlike foxhunting.

    3. Re:Sigh by mcpheat · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Very similar to the hunting ban in the UK, the lords didn't want to ban it so the Government used an act ment for emergencies

      The parliment act requires a bill to be passed by the Commons twice, in separate sessions more than a year apart. If you can wait a year it is not an emergency. The act is designed to stop the unelected Lords blocking the elected Commons and that is exactly what it was used for.

    4. Re:Sigh by Turn-X+Alphonse · · Score: 1

      I suggest you see hunting and not buy into the press. I never went hunting (although I did see it a few times living in the country side as I happen to do), but I know the difference between being caught and killed and being shot and left to bleed to death if the guy can't aim.

      Hunting ensures a kill if caught which is ALOT more then any trap or firearm can ensure..

      --
      I like muppets.
    5. Re:Sigh by Turn-X+Alphonse · · Score: 1

      It was used to push through a law which makes no sense. I can now be fined/put in prison if I take my dogs for a walk and they chase a fox (yes, I have 3 dogs, any more then 2 is illegal now..). It was totally and utterly wrongly put and is now going to be mocked and killed off.

      The lords didn't want it banned because alot of people didn't (the countryside alliance would happily give you figures I bet), the government simplely abused a bill to get more votes in the up comming popularity contest.. shame everyone hates them.

      Oh and when do we get a law enplaced to stop the Antis from beating up little kids and stealing their pets? A couple of months ago a 12 year old lad here was out ferreting (perfectly legal) and a group of antis jumped him, put him in hospital and nicked his ferrets (they weren't seen again.. so god knows where they are). So I want a law which stops this sort of thing and is enforcable if you're banning something for them. It's ridiclous

      --
      I like muppets.
    6. Re:Sigh by purple_cobra · · Score: 1

      There are already laws in place to stop the offences you just mentioned (ABH or GBH and theft). Did he report the incident? It sounds like he didn't, so I have no sympathy.
      The CA are forever wittering on about democracy but they appear not to know what the word means; here's a clue: it has nothing to do with a minority of people being allowed to continue to practice a hobby which the majority consider barbaric. In that sense, democracy is despotic and, in a fair and just democracy, those who ignored this new law would be tried and punished. But this country is neither fair nor just, so they'll be ignored and the barbarians will continue as before.
      The majority of people despise both the Conservative Party and the Thatcherite elements of the current government (Blair, Clarke, etc), so the next 'popularity contest' is still up in the air, really. Personally, I distrust Blair and his cronies, cannot fathom the point of the Tories, and have varying degrees of dislike for the other contenders. All I know is that whoever we vote for, the government gets in (origins of that quote are unknown to me, I'm afraid).

    7. Re:Sigh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh and when do we get a law enplaced to stop the Antis from beating up little kids and stealing their pets?

      Would it amaze you to learn that beating up little kids and stealing their pets is already illegal?

    8. Re:Sigh by Turn-X+Alphonse · · Score: 1

      Theres alot of things we could say is disliked by the masses. That isn't a reason to ban it. Most people hate guys on mobile phones on buses.. don't see a ban there.

      Hunting was very effective at what it did (kill the weak foxs to ensure the stronger fox population lived on and kept pets at bay). You can go "ooh but foxs are cute", well we (my family) used to run a shoot for various game birds. Went over the farm once to find a pen ripped open by foxs with 50 (yes 50) birds all ripped apart and not even eaten, just for the fun of it.

      Now if foxs do that why can't dogs do that? Foxs are pests and just because you townies don't see it doesn't mean it's not true. When one gets in your chickens you tend to not like the things, when several do you tend to hate them.

      Now on noe hunting EVER said "lets kill all the foxs", infact the opposit is true, they want to keep the fox population healthy and well, but limit it so it doesn't destroy the rest of the countryside.

      and as for the vote thing, exactly. This country is a mess and hence why I want to move to the moon.

      --
      I like muppets.
    9. Re:Sigh by Turn-X+Alphonse · · Score: 1

      and yes he did report the incident, the polices said "Well we can't do much since you didn't see them very well". It's hard to see someone when you've got 3-4 guys stamping on your head.

      These are the same people who are attacking research labs and farms raising animals for science. The only difference is this kids pets ment something to him, a load of battery hens can be replaced.

      This has nothing to do with "being cruel" or "not breaking the law" this is Blair's asshole government backed up by a load of townies, as long as they can keep London happy (Tossers!), they don't care much for whats outside it.

      Many people have pointed out, if laws get so ridiclous you just can't be arsed to respect them and live within them, the whole system collapses. How much longer untill we get sick of Blair's government and all these bullshit schemes to "help" people while the NHS gets shafted.

      Tell me, does it REALLY matter if a few people chase a fox for a weekend while we're in the middle of 2 wars (Afganistan and Iraq), possiblely looking at another and the only thing we hear about the NHS is "Dirty, you'll get MRSA, no nurses, no doctors, go private if you want"?

      I was in hospital last month and I think I'd rather have that hellhole sorted then I would waste time and money on a sport which doesn't hurt anyone.

      --
      I like muppets.
    10. Re:Sigh by Paul+Crowley · · Score: 1

      Hold up there - where's the bit where you say "oh yes, you're quite right, I'm talking bollocks about the Parliament Act, aren't I? Sorry."

      I can now be fined/put in prison if I take my dogs for a walk and they chase a fox

      Entirely false - it is not illegal unless there is intent for hunt. That's two for two - does it bother you that you seem to be believing everything the CA tells you?

      "A lot of people" is a clear minority of the British population. When the CA tried to take out adverts suggesting that a majority were against hunting, they were censured by the Advertising Standards Authority.

    11. Re:Sigh by tarquin_fim_bim · · Score: 0

      I never went hunting

      But you're still an expert on the subject, right?

  24. as a bird once said . . . by edward.virtually@pob · · Score: 0

    IAGO: (Extremely sarcastically) Oh, there's a big
    surprise. That's an incred--I think I'm gonna have
    a heart attack and die from not surprise!

    1. Re:as a bird once said . . . by edward.virtually@pob · · Score: 1

      care to admit your username, cowardly mismoderator? if not, kindly stop mismoderating my posts.

  25. Very complicated by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Basically by refusing to restart, they will work off of the current text which everybody has agreed was far too pro-patent. The EU is really complicated and screwed up. Basically the legilative part of the EU can't pass laws -- they can only propose them. The executive part is what determines what will be the final law -- and in this case they want patents. The legislative part has only one stronger ability: they can dissolve the whole executive branch.

    (In this case there was an initial pro-patent law, when was ammended and agreed to with anti-patent ammendments, those ammendments were stripped and it has nearly been snuck through passage in meetings about fish on two occasions. Everyone expected the process to have to start over from scratch, but it looks like they will defy the other branches of the EU and force it through as-is.)

  26. Unfortunately... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    The democratic parliament and peoples of Europe decline to respect the commissions decline to restart because otherwise we are discussing the decline of democracy.

    Pfft politics!

  27. contact details for UK MEPs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Here are the contact details for UK MEPs, lets have a Europe wide emailing and faxing and phoning tonight and tommorow.
    Lets /. them.
    http://www.europarl.org.uk/uk_meps/MembersPrincip. htm
    And contact your MP as well to try to get this asked in UK Parliament.
    This is it - there will no more European Software if this happens.

    1. Re:contact details for UK MEPs by LowneWulf · · Score: 1

      Ummm, wasn't it the MEPs who asked for the restart? They already agree it would seem. The issue is that they're being ignored.

    2. Re:contact details for UK MEPs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The real question is if they are accepting the fact that they are ignored.

      I hope not.

  28. Not relevant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The UK Parliament is a democratically elected body, the House of Lords is not. Whereas the EU Commission (the decision making body) is NOT elected, whereas the EU Parliament (who are objecting to the patents) are elected.

    Confused?

  29. ...and, in related news: by Radres · · Score: 2, Funny

    MS denies Windows needs restart.

    1. Re:...and, in related news: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course not windows never %$#%^#^... *CARRIER LOST*

  30. This is just teh start by moofdaddy · · Score: 1

    Be prepared, the whole EU is about to fall to similar things. The united states has a similar thing in front of them. Microsoft has managed with the help of campaign contributions to get a strangle hold on the legislature of teh world.

    --
    Be better in bed. Wikiafterdark!
    1. Re:This is just teh start by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You might even have a point if it wasn't for the jackass use of hax0rish terms. You get teh point?

  31. Au contraire, mon frere! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    So Italy's not a part of Europe?

    1. Re: Au contraire, mon frere! by xtracto · · Score: 1

      LOL mod parent up Funny!!! =OD I personally dont have anything against Italy but well, you know...

      --
      Ubuntu is an African word meaning 'I can't configure Debian'
  32. Relax by NigelJohnstone · · Score: 1

    You don't know the intention of the *new* *different* Commission. Don't assume they don't see the problem the way the last lot didn't.

    1. Re:Relax by juhaz · · Score: 1

      Well, considering this decision to ignore the restart request was made by the new Commission, it would seem pretty certain that they indeed do view it the same way.

      Enough money does that.

    2. Re:Relax by NigelJohnstone · · Score: 1

      It doesn't follow.

      Another acceptable outcome would be if the Commission simply adopted the amendements of the Parliament under the co-decision process.

      We just need to keep that A list item from being passed without a vote.

  33. Microsoft puppet? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is that like, a SCOX sock with eyes and a big smile drawn with a Sharpie, or a Neocon-Raggedy-Ann-&-Andy Bush doll in Army fatigues?

    Just what kind of puppet are we talking about, here?

    And what are the French doing about it?

  34. Re:"someone who failed as Portuguese prime ministe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yes It can be hard but its hard to find anyone who prided himself on such low standards (correction sub standards ) , ranging from ludicrous incompetence to rabid delusions (his governing was almost all based on the premise that the state had to spend less money (and while he was at it also earn less by raising taxes for the middle/low class and actually cutting them for higher incomes and instituting a vat "culture tax" of 19%, and at the same time wasting aprox 600 mil euros on diesel powered attack subs to monitor the portuguese coastline... against fishing trolleys and illegal imigrant boats while the surface navy has a good amount of grounded ships due to lack of fuel money.. ) trashing work codes managing to be the first government to get two general strikes in the shortest amount of time ever running the country completly amuck and last year ditching the country a putting a full mental jackass puting the country up on sale, but yes there was some justice and we did vote their asses to a record low two weeks ago (now if only people would know what this incompetend twat was doing (hell even if they didn't know the idea of removing his nationality as punishment for such a bad service would be a very popular idea) in fact getting is ass fired would make everyone that voted against him very happy (some 70% or so ... ;) ) btw getting this issue in portuguese prime time would garantee some diplomatic allies so lets see if slashdot can help on that you can find some more detais at www.midnightcreations.org or gildot.org indymedia.pt would also be nice if they got their shit togheter some time....

  35. LOBBY = Contact Details for UK MPs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    Here is fax your mp = get a question asked about this in Parliament = it will destroy the British software Industry.
    http://www.faxyourmp.com/
    And Contact details for your MP's phone and address.
    http://www.theyworkforyou.com/
    C'mon lets /. for democracy and all our coding futures.

  36. As an american by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    I am also torn. I think software patents are a terrible burden on software developers and open source software. However I think it's great that the Europeans are willing to hand us their economy like this. Americans and asians own 70% of the currently unenforceable software patents in the EU. Banana republic! Ha ha! PWNED!!!!11!!!one!!1

    Michael

    1. Re:As an american by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Banana republic! Ha ha! PWNED!!!!11!!!one!!1

      Michael


      American? Ashamed to be posting as AC but willing to admit to being called 'Michael'?

      We've been looking for you. Get your bleached white ass back in court this minute, you child molester.

  37. very interesting story by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    his site is very interesting. i am an american and a bit older...it wasn't that long ago that ireland was struggling economically...badly.

    and i have wondered how the turnaround so fast ?

    and now i know. nevermind i've never seena peep about it in any american writings...news or otherwise.

    ireland is a tax shelter for many us corporations...including MS. i'd have had no idea this crap was going on if not for this website.

    it makes the various american right wing comedians (say trey parker types) look awfully naive when they rail against democrats and for corporations.

  38. Next Muppet Movie Title... by jd · · Score: 1

    Corporate Pigs In Space!!!

    --
    It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
  39. The real problem with patents. by WindBourne · · Score: 1

    is the fact that the software ones are being looked at.

    As to needing better educated ppl at uspto, that would never solve it. You are asking that somebody has knowledge of x-over patenets as well as in the field. Since they have such a short timer per patent, it becomes unfeasable. Instead, it strikes me that we need to create a much better search engine that works on the patent itself. It would have to deal with more than just search-terms, but even that would be useful. An ideal situation is using an AI (perhaps a n net combined with a GA) to deal with searching through these.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  40. Portuguese prime minister by viriatopt · · Score: 1

    Old Portuguese prime minister is known by being one old activista of left, in a party that defended the ideals of Mao. As it wanted to go up in the life, he moved for a right party. Of Portugal arrived prime minister. To camufular the Portuguese défice he sell public companies, boxes of retirements, increased the taxes, he congealed wages and finally he diminishes the taxes on the companies. Already this was not enough, ran away for Brussels for a position that ninguem wanted, nominating its successor without national elections.

    1. Re:Portuguese prime minister by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Danm, please learn some english man! go to wsi.pt or something :| 5th graders write better than that :\

    2. Re:Portuguese prime minister by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      To viriatopt:
      O pa, da proxima vez nao passes isso pelo babelfish - fica mal :P.

      To everyone else, just go to the wikipedia article for what he tried to say.

  41. Re:"someone who failed as Portuguese prime ministe by Brandybuck · · Score: 1

    The answer is simple: The unbridled hunger for the corrupting influence that is Brussels. He might not have as much direct power as he had in Algarve, but nobody beats Brussels when it comes to festering corruption.

    --
    Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
  42. Mark Twain on politicians by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "A honest politician is one who, once being bought, stays bought." -- Mark Twain.

    1. Re:Mark Twain on politicians by sepluv · · Score: 3, Informative
      I really should point out that the €C are not politicians in the normal sense; they're really civil servants who are supposed to do what the governments and parliament tell them...and are trying to pass a law despite the people, governments, parliament and companies of Europe being against it...Bush...{cough}...Gates...{cough}.

      Let us hope they get sacked (again).

      --
      Joe Llywelyn Griffith Blakesley
      [This post is in the public domain (copyright-free) unless otherwise stated]
    2. Re:Mark Twain on politicians by quarkscat · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "The US Congress is the best government money can buy." -- Mark Twain.

    3. Re:Mark Twain on politicians by piotr+alfredovich · · Score: 2, Funny
      they're really civil servants
      For some reason my brain parsed that as evil servants...
  43. Deeper problem by grahamsz · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The biggest problem i see with software patents is that companies patent the most trivial things.

    Unfortunately many companies who would otherwise only patent solid ideas, get pushed into trying to patent everything.. why? because their competitors are doing it.

    If company A has thousands of patents and company B has thousands of patents then you hit something like mutually-assured-destruction. Where it's generally impractical to sue each other since it's a virtual certainty that each is infringing on the others patents.

    But this also happens in the hardware industry. The big few hard drive manufacturers have patented just about every conceivable way of making and running hard disks. They have cross-licensing agreements which make it very hard for any new players to break into the market.

    1. Re:Deeper problem by WiFiBro · · Score: 1, Interesting

      And the patent office does not require any proof. They accept any patent request, if not too obvious a double, and only when an infringement is made, the party accused of infringement has to proof the patent is false.
      This is how a joker (aka 'lawyer') managed to get a patent on the invention "wheel".

      This is how farmacautical companies try to patent ancient medicines made from the neem tree. Greenpeace blocked another attempt to steal a crop.

    2. Re:Deeper problem by back_pages · · Score: 1
      I have mod points but I give up. There's just too much misunderstanding of the patent system to have any influence.

      The biggest problem i see with software patents is that companies patent the most trivial things.

      The USPTO does what it can with limited resources to issue valid patents. They don't issue strong patents. A patent for something done, or something that has verifiable prior art will be laughed at in a courtroom. This doesn't mean the USPTO did anything wrong - the USPTO was never tasked with issuing strong patents.

      The big few hard drive manufacturers have patented just about every conceivable way of making and running hard disks. They have cross-licensing agreements which make it very hard for any new players to break into the market.

      They're still subject to whatever anti-trust and collusion regulations might apply (and I'm not expert on that section of law.) In any event, a patent is a temporary monopoly - if you (or a group of companies) has managed to patent every aspect of how something works, it's only reasonable to expect that new players would have a hard time breaking into the market. Taken out of context, that's proof that they have effective patents and that the system works as it was conceived.

      A new player with a new idea is perfectly free to break into the market. They might design a new hard drive from the ground up, or they might design a new component, seek patent protection, and muscle themselves into their own cross licensing deal. While this is somewhat of a stretch, the existing patent protection held by the existing companies is, after all, only temporary. (I would agree that in certain sectors of technology, it's long enough to be effectively permanent, but that's a separate issue.)

      Anyway, back to the main point - the money spent for a software company to patent a trivial thing is very likely money wasted. I have posted at least 25 times that the first stage of an infringement defense is a validity attack on the patent, including an extensive prior art search and independent research into the technology. Patent something trivial and the judge will be entertained to hear a viciously armed validity attack on the patent. If it's truly a trivial invention, the ramifications of that fact will echo through the rest of the proceedings, ranging from invalidation of the patent to determining the damages.

    3. Re:Deeper problem by grmoc · · Score: 1


      Unfortunately, the burden of proof lies with the person who does -not- have the patent.

      USPTO was tasked with granting patents on non-obvious, novel inventions.

      I think it has become fairly clear that it determines neither trait well. As such, it is deficient at its job.

      The problem of the duration 'temporary' is -not- a separate discussion. It is directly relevant. Many people who oppose patents do so because they assert that patents are stifling innovation.

      If the cycle of innovation is shorter than the duration of a patent, then you are discouraging innovation rather than encouraging. Thus the mechanism of current patents is running counter to the intent expressed.

      You assert that patenting a trivial thing is money wasted. This is unfortunately not the case-- Death by paper-cuts (i.e. lawyers) is a fairly common tactic these days. Even if you win the court case you can lose the war.

    4. Re:Deeper problem by back_pages · · Score: 1
      I think it has become fairly clear that it determines neither trait well.

      I doubt you could define either of these terms as they apply to the Patent system. What was established by State Street? Deere? Diamond v. Diehr? Chakrabarty? Those are only the landmark cases in patent law of the last 75 years, contributing to the definition of what is patentable, what is novel, and what is nonobvious. If any of those monumental cases are not instantly recognizable, please realize that you're not equipped to discuss what is novel or nonobvious.

      The problem of the duration 'temporary' is -not- a separate discussion. It is directly relevant. Many people who oppose patents do so because they assert that patents are stifling innovation.

      I'd love to hear how the concept of novel and nonobvious are related to the issue of the duration of patents. I'm sure it would be entertaining. Actually, most people who oppose patents don't have a clue what they're talking about. In fact, many people think that the USPTO decides what is and is not patentable. A third grade social studies book would clear up that issue. The judicial branch of government interprets laws, not the USPTO.

      If the cycle of innovation is shorter than the duration of a patent, then you are discouraging innovation rather than encouraging.

      I am inclined to agree with that sentiment, however it is extremely broad and sure to be met with endless exceptions and caveats.

      You assert that patenting a trivial thing is money wasted. This is unfortunately not the case-- Death by paper-cuts (i.e. lawyers) is a fairly common tactic these days. Even if you win the court case you can lose the war.

      Of course this happens, but the USPTO isn't responsible for the litigious nature of corporate America, isn't responsible for performing a $100,000 patent search for $1000 (in 10 hours), and isn't responsible for matching your socks.

      The USPTO tries to weed out the absurd legal snafus and performs a $1000 prior art search. Contact your local IP professionals and see what type of prior art search they'll do for $1000. Here's my prediction: it'll be far from perfect, and they won't even pretend that it would be perfect.

  44. Why can they do this? Unfortunately, yes. by wine · · Score: 1
    The European Parlement has really no power at all. The influence of the parlement is greatest with respect to internal market affairs, in which case it is supposed to co-decide with the counsel. The amount of real power becomes obvious if you realise this patent debate is part of the internal market policy.

    In the next couple of months many citizens of the EU can vote for an European Constitution in a referendum in their countries. In this constitution the European Parlement is given nearly no decisive powers at all.

    The European parlement really shouldn't be called that way.

  45. Re:Slashdot: News for Lawyers. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny
    What gives? Can we bring back the old content?

    If every slashdotter killed just 10 lawyers...

    Hmmmm...

  46. The European Commission has history of corruption! by woodengod · · Score: 1

    Somebody remember Edith Cresson? It smells like a corruption again. In addition to the steps that can be taken to prevent this nonsense, the smart@sses which took the decision should be investigated, as quickly as it's possible.

  47. In the Land of Adults... by reallocate · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ...under the leadership of someone who previously failed as Portuguese prime minister and as per the suggestion of a Microsoft puppet...

    Now, that's the kind of insight that gives so many of those people the great reputation they have in the Land of Adults.

    Regardess of the merits, or lack thereof, on either side of this issue, that virulent phrase manages to combine the two central themes defining how many free software advocates relate to the rest of the world:

    1) Anyone who disagrees with me is incompetent.
    2) Anyone who disagrees with me is also taking Microsoft money.

    --
    -- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
    1. Re:In the Land of Adults... by dAzED1 · · Score: 2, Insightful
      just because you're paranoid doesn't mean that they're not after you.

      where's the option for if the other side really IS incometent, and really IS taking money from MS?

      In the Land of Realistic Adults, we realize that there are more than 2 sides to a coin...but that sometimes 1 side is better. A side that has Britney Spears naked, for instance, is much better than one with Al Gore naked.

    2. Re:In the Land of Adults... by reallocate · · Score: 1

      where's the option for if the other side really IS incometent, and really IS taking money from MS?

      Well, first you learn to write.

      Then, you learn that insulting people is just about the worst way to change their minds. It's great for rousing the rabble who are already on your side, but it sure looks like cult behavior from the outside.

      Then, you make your case with logic and clarity. If people don't come onboard, blame yourself, not them.

      If you really do have evidence of incompetence, bribery or corruption, present it. Otherwise, you'll soon be regarded as just one more truth-bending special interest group.

      If all else fails, go into the corruption and bribery business yourself. If the really is how the game is played, then you have 3 choices: 1) Sit out the game; 2) Reform the game; 3) Play by the house rules.

      --
      -- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
    3. Re:In the Land of Adults... by dAzED1 · · Score: 1
      "Well, first you learn to write."

      Shouldn't that be "learn how to write?" They've already learned they need to write...right? Or was it a comment about me merely doing a simply typo, and leaving out a "p" in "competent?"


      "If the really is how the game is played..."

      Do you need to learn to write too? ;)

      Evidence has been presented, in clear, exclusively certain (versus no uncertain) terms. Nothing illegal occured, but we special-interest folk aren't saying a law was broken. We're saying something unethical occured.

    4. Re:In the Land of Adults... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Otherwise, you'll soon be regarded as just one more truth-bending special interest group.

      So, you're saying that we citizens will get to draft EU legislation like the BSA?

    5. Re:In the Land of Adults... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Whilst on the one hand your point would usually be a good one, we're talking about the European Commission here. Nobody is surprised to hear insults against the EC, because most of us have been thinking and saying it for years.

      I'd find it very difficult to think of anybody, anybody whatsoever, who doesn't think this sort of thing about the European Commission on a regular basis. Businesspeople, shopkeepers, sailors, farmers, nurses, social services, primary or secondary industries, teachers... most people have an axe to grind. It's hard not to think rude things about a nonelected group of bureaucrats whose main role in life appears to be removing all the pleasures out of existence. They succumb to no known logic. They're not duly elected, their authority appears to come directly from the ass end of beyond, and so do their policies.

      Sitting out the game is a pretty hopeless endeavour. Reforming the game, well, that'd be my number one option, too, but it would take a severe, totally obvious upset before we get sufficient momentum for that. It would be nice to think that software patents are a big enough issue for heads to roll, but I would be surprised if the system were reformed entirely on the basis of a scrap over patentability.

      Plus in this case, playing by the house rules would imply being somebody very, very special. The European Commission is more or less an "old boys' club", or better said, a crusty politician's club. Short of being a career bureaucrat (who's done something embarrassing enough to be shunted up to Brussels), we have little hope of joining in.

      To conclude: the chances of changing the mind of this Portugese dude are zero, short of his being struck by lightning or augmented by brain surgeons in the next few days. This is obvious, for the simple reason that ignoring a request this emphatic from the EU Parliament shouts "Kick me!" For all intents and purposes, the chap is merely an inexpensive automaton. The next step is to ensure that everybody else is aware of this, so that pressure mounts on the parliament and the member governments to stick their money where their collective mouths are. Visible public disgust is not only an easy but also a good emotion to inspire, particularly these days - EU referendum is coming up in many member states. Pro-European states don't need any more Edith Cressons til we're safely out of the voting forest.

    6. Re:In the Land of Adults... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting
      The patent establishment contends that the directive is suitable for purpose and opponents are all ignorant of patent law. I think this is the one central theme that defines how these people relate the the world:
      1) Anyone who disagrees with me is incompetent.
      2) Anyone who disagrees with me is a "free software advocate".
    7. Re:In the Land of Adults... by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 1

      But the commission IS taking Microsofts money. Microsoft is one of the commission sponsers.

      Also, very large wads of cash in brown paper envelopes have probobly been handed over.
      On the other hand, don't attribute to malice what can be explained by simple incompetance.

      --
      May the Maths Be with you!
    8. Re:In the Land of Adults... by reallocate · · Score: 1

      the commission IS taking Microsofts money. Microsoft is one of the commission sponsers.

      Then, get some of your own money and give it to the commission. Or, try to convince the rest of the world that you're virtuous and the commission is not. See if that sways the commission's decisions. Your call.

      very large wads of cash in brown paper envelopes have probobly been handed over...

      Probably doesn't count. Unsubstantiated allegations of corruption smell of rabblerousing. If you can prove it, do so. Otherwise, be prepared to be painted with a "They would say that, wouldn't they..." brush.

      --
      -- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
  48. How can you say such things! by jd · · Score: 2, Funny

    Suggesting that anything to do with Microsoft has strings attached!

    --
    It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
  49. Re: Au contraire, mon frere! Mais oui! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Giulio "la tartaruga" Andreotti with his close connections to the Mafia as well as to the Vatican comes to mind...

  50. Bill Gates on why SoftPat is good (for him) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    "
    If people had understood how patents would be granted when most of today's ideas were invented and had taken out patents, the industry would be at a complete standstill today. ... The solution is patenting as much as we can. A future startup with no patents of its own will be forced to pay whatever price the giants choose to impose. That price might be high. Established companies have an interest in excluding future competitors.
    "
    Bill Gates 1991
    This was quoted by Fred Warshofsky in "The Patent Wars" of 1994. The text is from an internal memo written by Bill Gates to his staff. Part of has appeared in another Gates memos.
    http://swpat.ffii.org/archive/quotes/index.en.html #bgates91

  51. Government Enforced Absolute Monopoly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Copyright protects your code from theft.
    Patent mean there will only ever be 1 implementation of each type of thing.
    This will be Government enforced Monopoly.
    Competition will be illegal and companies will have no incentive to improve anything.
    No more Open Source, No more non corporate code. Programmers Better learn new skills.
    =Thanks Ireland

  52. on the other hand by szo · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Just because something sounds like a flamebait, it doesn't mean its not true.

    Szo

    --
    Red Leader Standing By!
    1. Re:on the other hand by khallow · · Score: 1

      It's still imature. And people who phrase things this way have a tendency to be more wrong than right.

    2. Re:on the other hand by Silburn_Luke · · Score: 1

      Even if its true, yelling about it in this intemperate fashion makes you look like a loon to the 99% of people who can't spare the time to dig into the facts for themselves. Once you look like a loon you've pretty much lost the battle of perceptions and (absent a dramatic reality-check that exposes the true situation to even the most blinkered) you will go on to lose the battle of the facts.

      Where many geeks fail is in their blindness to the social context of a situation and their privileging of facts over perceptions. Sure, external reality can bite you in the ass (see any number of Emperor's New Clothes moments throughout history) but in many cases the facts on the ground are a minor component of the overall situation and their external reality can can be easily swamped out by the social reality that an astute political type can construct/adapt to suit their agenda.

      We need to get some hardcore memetic engineers on our side if we're going to win this thing.

      Regards
      Luke

      --
      #include witty_one_liner.h
  53. Out of context... by Chordonblue · · Score: 1

    If you were a mass murderer, then by your own argument you could complain that the laws are unfair to your 'lifestyle'.

    So I take it you voted against being in the EU?

    --
    "...Well, there's egg and bacon; egg sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg bacon and spam; egg bacon sausage and spam..."
  54. Gates in Commission for Criminals by adlaalook · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Why, only a few months ago, Mobistar was fined, by the EU, because they sold "a package" (Nokia + Mobistar), but MS Gates can walk free, while new pc's are delivered with XP, without even asking you, when you buy, but you pay MS anyway. As long as people as Gates, can impose terms, and walk away, everytime again, nothing will ever change! We (europ) should send BarbaRosso to jail, he's no democrat, he's the same kind as Gates, they rule, but not for the intrest of the people!

  55. ERROR by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The second negative from the first sentence is missing, but you managed three in the second. To evaluate correctly your posting should read:

    You don't not know the intention of the *new* *different* Commission. Don't assume they see the problem the way the last lot didn't.

    This message brought to you by Double Negative Compiler V2.1 featuring patent pending posi-neg technology.

    1. Re:ERROR by NigelJohnstone · · Score: 1

      "The second negative from the first sentence is missing, but you managed three in the second."

      Actually an & is missing from the first sentence, done for effect. The 'didn't' is intentional misuse chosen for emphasis.

      But if you didn't understand it, I'll try again:
      It is wrong to assume just because a Commissioner sits in the same seat, that he holds the same views as the previous Commissioner.

  56. on slashdot.... by ocularDeathRay · · Score: 0

    everyday is a sad day

    --
    Obama is a twitter sock puppet
  57. Re:"someone who failed as Portuguese prime ministe by fsmunoz · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Right on target.

    It's actually another thing also, closely related to that, and I speak as a portuguese: the attraction of Brussels is that it gives the - generally mediocre - local politicians a sense of "grandeur". It's *the EU*, they can privy with really important people, they will be talked in their place of birth as "having a high place in Brussels...". It's the petty burgoise thinking applied to politics, some weird sense of self importance that comes from talking trough an interpreter and having "sattelite time" to communicate with the locals, obviously barbarians, away from the place that really matters, where they, previously unknown, talk to people with strange names that do matter.

    Just talking about this makes me both ashamed and angry as hell. It's a blow in me national pride each time I see them all happy and subservient, like a pincher that is glad he can stick around a doberman and call him "is great pal".

  58. Patents ? Who cares ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Poor poor we....

    Europeans politicians abandonned their goal years ago... (did they really get some ?)

    Now they choose to be only the paid observers of the fight between "US-patents-&-lawyers-ruled" companies (sco like...) and chinese operational "fuck-US-patents" cash machine...

    Let us european guy focus to zoo, food and tourism business... technology business & services has been clearly out of our politicians understanding for years...

    Ahem... would you mean refusing the european constitution project could be a way to blast these EU guys away from their dirty job ?? :-)

    1. Re:Patents ? Who cares ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Commission must this, the advice and to have parliament necessarily notable, to have done. They arrest to test, with the process without a voice, in the theory of the agreement of the advice and parliament agree (in the version of the advice). The some committees of parliament meantime have the total thing more, to start and commission neglected. Moreover the sustentation eats in the advice for the version, during parliaments national of the instructions to the representatives with its government, them does not emit to the sustentation.

  59. Re:"someone who failed as Portuguese prime ministe by elgaard · · Score: 2, Funny

    >The answer is simple: The unbridled hunger for the corrupting influence that is Brussels.

    I would have said the belgian beer, but you could be right too.

  60. Then parliament should sack the commission by cabalamat2 · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Because they don't think the parliament will fire them over just this, and that is the only option of sanction the European Parliament has.

    Since the unelected European Commission insists on treating democracy with open comtempt, the European Parliament should sack them.

    1. Re:Then parliament should sack the commission by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 2, Informative

      Unfortunately, the Commission is not an unelected body. They were elected by the Parliment. However, once elected they are free to give the finger to the parliment as much as they like, and the only thing the Parliment can do is sack them, which is NEVER going to happen.

      It sort of reminds me of that Discworld novel, where the only decocracy on the Disc was where people elected a new tyrant every year. Each year all of the candidates would promise to do things differently and not terrorise the populace, and every year once elected, they would proceed to be another terrible dictator. This continued year after year, with the whole system being proclaimed a resounding success.

      --
      May the Maths Be with you!
  61. Boo hoo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Here's a tissue. Dry your eyes and quit acting like such a pansy.

    1. Re:Boo hoo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      In Snivel Boy against Harsh Reality, the Supreme Court ruled that AC's who whine about Slashdot moderation should probably check to see if their milk has expired and clean the dirty condoms out of their mothers' sock drawers, and quit bitching.

  62. Freedom Across Europe by Morosoph · · Score: 1
    Trouble is: it is people wanting to preserve national sovereignty that have landed us in this mess. Why? The Council of Ministers is a forum for multi-lateral treaties, in effect. You see the result of that: items passed at the European level have little parliamentary overview, since they're not really pressing national issues, although they are when considered cumulatively.

    The result is that central national governments more or less have free reign to set the law at this level, and central governments think most like other large entities, ie. large corporations, not individuals or smaller businesses.

    Pressing for "greater national sovereignty" therefore has the opposite effect of that intended: it reduces individual freedom across Europe, and therefore in each country. We really need to be more careful about what we ask for.

  63. Uh-Oh by pipingguy · · Score: 1


    Maybe one too many beers is to blame, but I intially read, "EU Communism Declines Patent Debate Restart".

  64. Oh Rich by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Then, you learn that insulting people is just about the worst way to change their minds."

    At first, I was struck by the sanity of your position. Reading through some of your previous posts however, and I wonder why the same rules of decorum don't apply to you?

    Sincerely good troll there. "If the really is how..." is not how we speak in the land of adults.

  65. Angry Machines by JerkyBoy · · Score: 1

    I was talking to a friend the other day about the feelings that I got from large US corporations: Walmart, Microsoft, you name it. He is a lawyer, and he described them as "angry machines." It's consistent with what I feel when I think about what kind of machinations are going on behind the scenes to push patents through in Europe. How do we, Free Software advocates (and advocates of freedom and cooperation) match the intensity of these folks? Deep in despair, because I see the demise of Free Software in the bowels of these decisions, I wonder how the Nazis, those incredibly angry and strong fanatics, were defeated... What impulse was necessary to counter their hate? Whatever it was, we need it now. Peace signs and hippie love ain't cutting it.

    --


    Always do right. This will gratify some people and astonish the rest. -- Mark Twain
    1. Re:Angry Machines by old+man+moss · · Score: 1

      The problem with standing up for free software is that the vast, vast majority of people don't get it. To nearly everyone I know, "software" is the stuff that comes preloaded on their new PC. Microsoft is it as far as they are concerned. OK, they moan about stuff being hard to use and crashing, but they (think they) are far too busy to actually go out and find anything better.

      --
      rt
  66. SMS'ed MALTA IT minister on radio by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I SMS'ed Malta's IT minister who was on radio 101 a couple of days ago (the show was taking in sms's)
    about software patents and their effect.

    Guess what - while I received the automatic thank you sms, there was no mention on the radio!

    I guess he wanted to skirt the subject. Of course he kept mentioning the donations by Microsoft of lots of software practically free..

  67. You are fluent in double speak I see by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The topic is a certain branch of government trying to sell out to corporate interests, to which you reply:

    "It is worth noting, though, that this should be a lesson to those who propose the solution to everything is a government fix."

    This is quite a spin.

    But you weren't satisfied to simply stop there, no you wanted to really get dizzy, so you add:

    "if the EU member nations are looking to create economic growth, the last thing they need is more regulation."

    Ohhhkay. So, let's get this straight. Allowing corporate legal offices to patent mathematical algorithms and therby gain enforcement of their control through the courts would actually open up the markets and make things fair for everybody, especially the little guy. Is that right?

    1. Re:You are fluent in double speak I see by ThisIsFred · · Score: 1
      Ohhhkay. So, let's get this straight. Allowing corporate legal offices to patent mathematical algorithms and therby gain enforcement of their control through the courts would actually open up the markets and make things fair for everybody, especially the little guy. Is that right?

      No, that's not what I meant. I suggested removing from the government the power to regulate patents. That comes down to "no patents", or no officially sanctioned ones, anyway. If that's too hard to swallow, then let's start with "no software patents". Those hypothetical corporations wouldn't gain enforcement in the courts, because the courts, an arm of the government, wouldn't be granted power to do anything about patents.

      And there's no spin there. We would not have this topic to discuss today unless the EU had the power to create patent regulation, or at least an unelected arm of the EU attempting a big power grab. A patent is not a naturally-occurring aspect of the marketplace. Patent law is created and enforced by governments, which are supposed to be disinterested third parties. It's not working out that way, though, is it?
      --
      Fred

      "A fool and his freedom are soon parted"
      -RMS
  68. Re:Slashdot: News for Lawyers. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Then this news is good news for you... if this passes ther will probably not be a /.

  69. New patent awarding system by Elmasgigante · · Score: 1

    I would like some comments on this idea: Since IP is a business concept, treat it in that way: exclusive IP rights should only be granted until profits made from the IP reach a fixed number (set through political process) times the investment that was required to create the invention claimed as IP. Once those profits have been obtained, the IP should become public domain. In addition to the currently required documentation about the invention and its claims, a deposition about the investment should be made at the time the IP rights are requested and controlled by an independent accountant. Profits can be tracked through income tax returns or will have to be administered separately. This way, anyone wanting to contest the IP rights can do so not only wrt. content but also wrt. investment. This method secures that eg. pharmaceutical companies get their huge investments back for developing new medecines but also secures that eg. existing natural species or commonly used phrases or code chunks cannot be patented. There should be an incentive to invent and innovate but the incentive must relate to the effort required to create the invention. I don't believe that any invention occurred without effort.

    1. Re:New patent awarding system by old+man+moss · · Score: 1

      I think it's just too hard to pin down how much investment was required to produce a particular patent. Also, a lot of investment is made after the patent is applied for: further development, QA, marketing...

      --
      rt
    2. Re:New patent awarding system by Elmasgigante · · Score: 1

      Look at it from a different perspective, not from the bookkeeper's POV. Documenting the investment serves two purposes: 1. Right now, the patent process is too easily abused for business purposes, eg. to obtain a monopoly, because the intellectual claims can only be checked by very few experts (if they are checked or contested at all). Requiring the investment to be documented will make it much easier to contest a patent and hence diminish the facility of obtaining it. It is also a deterrent for anyone not wanting to be transparent with their books. Just like with your tax claim, if you want tax credits you need to be rather transparent with your books. Given that you're obtaining a privilege from the government you should be required to have transparent bookkeeping. This will weed out all the folks who think a patent is an easy way to obtain a monopoly, protected by the government, without having to surrender anything about their business. 2. Even if a company would exaggerate its investment, the main objective of investment documentation is to limit how much can be earned from a patent not just by limiting the duration of a patent but by also limiting the actual $$ amount. Also, if a company exaggerates its investment for a certain patent, it cannot keep on exaggerating for all its patents since it will have to match total expenses. In any event, bad bookkeeping practice will quite quickly be contested in courts. Finally, I don't see why development once the invention has been patented should be included. That's just part of commercialization. Certainly marketing and QA is part of commercialization and has nothing to do with creating the original IP. The idea of awarding a patent is to allow the inventor to commercially benefit from the invention. Once the patent is awarded there is every opportunity to do so.

    3. Re:New patent awarding system by old+man+moss · · Score: 1
      "Finally, I don't see why development once the invention has been patented should be included."

      I'm guessing you are in the US where (I believe) you can patent up to a year after your idea becomes public. Here in the UK we have to patent before we make our idea public.

      That means that I have to have the idea, prototype and then patent *before* I take it to backers to be sure that I'm not going to get screwed. For me, most of the investment in real development happens after the patent is filed.

      That's a key difference between copyright and a patent - I can only copyright what's finished but I can patent something that is still only a prototype.

      Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see patents fixed, but I don't think better bookkeeping is the answer: I think better patent examination to reject overly broad and obvious inventions is the only way... and no software patents at all!

      --
      rt
    4. Re:New patent awarding system by Elmasgigante · · Score: 1

      I'm a Dutchman in Canada, fyi.

      I don't think it matters whether you can patent after your idea becomes public or not. if you want to have a patent that can hold up in court if it gets challenged it will always be better to have more evidence that the patent actually works eg. through prototyping etc.. hence if you obtain your patent at a stage where it's more of an idea then you are also entitled to less of a reward since there was less effort involved in getting the patent.

      I'm sticking with the basic idea that effort has to be reflected in any reward or privilege you get from society. This notion of an idea being worth something has been completely overblown and is now resulting in the limitation of free speech. It's very simply the direct consequence of the fact that effort is not one of the items that need to be shown or proven to the patent examinators.

      As I tried to explain in my previous reply to you, I'm explicitly not suggesting that better bookkeeping will help. It's merely a tactic to limit how patents can be exploited, by requiring people to show how much they sweat to contribute something truly new to society.

      I definitely don't believe in better patent examination because it's prone to heavy bias. Who appoints these examinators and who's to say they aren't bought ? From my experience in the academic world it's rife with politics in these so-called expert groups and I would most certainly contend that it's often not the most smart minds that get the most influential positions, deciding where R&D money gets spent. Peer review is very difficult to keep objective because in these expert groups everyone knows everyone and more often than not one will be biased towards results of a friend. In the case of patent examiners it will be worse because it's just a job (there's not much reputation at stake because it compares to the job of a scientific reviewer who really doesn't get much credit for his job).

  70. So? by dhbiker · · Score: 1

    What does this mean? I mean they've rejected the patent issue once which forced the restart, now some dickhead is preventing a restart. Does this mean we're sat in a stalemate with the issue languishing in no-man's land? (doesn't sound so bad to me)

  71. Somewhat different... by Kjella · · Score: 2, Insightful

    US model:
    1. Pay fat campaign contributions
    2. Blow vast amounts of money on convincing the sheep (voters).

    EU model:
    1. Let voters choose their national government
    2. Lobby the EU beurocrats
    3. Watch the EU do whatever the hell they want, regardless of national opinion.

    So while EU might have a democratic deficit too, I don't think it is the same as the US. More like a modern aristocracy (Government by a ruling class) than a plutocracy...

    Kjella

    --
    Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
  72. Vote with $$$ by multiview · · Score: 1

    Online petitions, letters to members of the paralement, online demonstrations.. crap! What gets you attention is money. Pure, hard and cold money. But I'm not talking about corruption.

    What changes the minds of those in power to decide is information. The information distribution, production, and presentation costs time and money, the time of lobbist and the money of the companies behind them.

    Free software doesn't have a company nor do we have a big budget. But we are many. Let us slash dot the budget of the lobbists on OUR side.

    Yes, there are such folks. The FFII is one of them. Just visit http://swpat.ffii.org - But don't go for online petitions or demos. Go to the donate section. These guys have to pay their office bills, their plane ticks and their printer paper.

    Vote with $$$. Change the world. Just like Microsoft.

  73. Equivalence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think that patents should be gotten rid of altogether. The situation with patents seems to be that 95% of them are outright cases of abuse, and some unknown portion of the remaining 5% might be legitimate. That said, things like software patents, specifically patents on algorithms are worse in theory than hardware patents.
    The reason for this is mathematical equivalence. In other words, regardless of efficiency of the algorithm or even the actual underlying method, all algorithms that accomplish the same task are mathematically equivalent. It can be easily argued with software that if you have a patent on a method that achieves a particular goal, you have a patent on all methods that achieve the same goal. This is a major problem.

  74. All failures by DataCannibal · · Score: 1

    'The EU Commission, under the leadership of someone who previously failed as Portuguese prime minister'

    If you look at the members of the EU commission you'll find that they have all failed in some pretty important political appointments. The EU commission is where the failures who can't be offered a cushy post in their own countries, because of the outcry it would provoke, are pushed off to on the quiet in the hope that no one notices that they are still around cocking thigs up

    --
    No but, yeah but, no but...
  75. I think they're just as corruptable. by C0d1ngM0nk3y · · Score: 1

    European politicians are just a little bit more subtle about selling their souls to satan whereas the American politicians just don't give a crap who knows and don't even try to hide it anymore.

  76. A-khem... by KZigurs · · Score: 1

    Washington, DC?

  77. Re:The European Commission has history of corrupti by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Somebody remember Edith Cresson?

    No, but its good that someone does and can reminds the rest of us when we do forget. I looked her up and remembered the story.
  78. Charlie McCreevy by maidhc · · Score: 5, Informative
    Charlie McCreevy has a habit of being somewhat headstrong and ignoring practically everyone until he realises his position untenable and is forced to back down sharpish.

    While Minister for Finance in Ireland he was forced to row back on a number of announcments made in his budgets due to opposition from the general public. He also gave 50m to an equestrian center without going through the correct procedures; for no apparent reason other than he likes horses.

    Eventually his tactics were hurting the government party so badly that he was shafted and sent to Europe for retirement.

    Whether he can maintain his current position on patents I do not know, but as an Irish person it isn't surprising to see Charlie's tactics remain the same.

  79. What the EU needs by theolein · · Score: 1

    The EU Commision is appointed by the heads of state of the various EU countries, while the EU parliment is an elected but somewhat powerless organisation. The EU's coming constitution is a joke as it only cements this bad state of affairs. The commision should be elected, but you can well expect that the old dinosaur demagogues of European politics, among them Berlusconi of Italy and Chirac of France will fight tooth and nail to keep their influence on the Commision.

    Democracy in Europe!

  80. Mobistar fined under Belgian, not EU law by ThreeDayMonk · · Score: 1

    Mobistar was fined under Belgian law, according to which "tying" is illegal. The practice is, however, perfectly legal in other countries of the EU: phone + service bundles are commonly sold in the UK, to give one example.

    --
    If your comment title says 'Re: Foo', I'm not likely to read it.
  81. PLEASE MOD THE PARENT UP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The "+5 insightful" argument by Roman is based on the obvious logical flaw, because there is no direct correlation between the amount of power some institution has and the level of democratization of that institution. Those indicators are more likely orthogonal.

  82. Portugal may switch sides by daem0n1x · · Score: 1

    The Socialists had a great victory in Portugal two weeks ago. By the way, they benefitted from the frustration created by the wretched governation of Mr. Barroso and his successor, Santana Lopes, the worst government we had since the revolution.
    The position of the Portuguese Socialist Party is against software patents. Let's hope that being in the Government doesn't make them change their minds.
    If I can recall, we only needed one country to make the switch to block this whole patent process again. Portugal may be it.

    1. Re:Portugal may switch sides by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually the socialist party has never expressed an opinion on Software patents during these elections, or anything else for that matter.

      They could afford to say nothing and still be elected.

      They don't seem very well informed, they just say they want to go for "science and development" but when asked about details they just spit some meaningless blabber. So I guess that could mean for or against software patents. Your guess is as good as mine.

      I have no hope for politicians in Portugal.

  83. Parliament Act not meant for emergencies by Paul+Crowley · · Score: 1

    I don't know why people keep saying this, it's so obviously bollocks. The Parliament Act takes years to invoke; it is no good for emergencies. The Lords are supposed to be an amending house, not one that takes decisions; the Parliament Act is there for when it starts acting like no more than the voice of the British upper classes against the will of the people.

    The purpose of the Parliament Act has always been to ensure that the Lords cannot frustrate the will of the Commons altogether when they have really set their heart on something, and that's exactly what it was used for.

    Wikipedia on the Parliament Act

  84. They can because we "asked" for it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The commissions official mission is to be a "Guardian of Treaties", treaties whose main aim is to ensure a free and unified market across the Union (ie one big market instead of 25 sets of rules). The power it holds over national governments is aimed at restraining them from going into a sudden protectionnist attitude. When countries don't follow the rules they decided themselves at the European Council, then it is the job of the Commission to sue them at the Luxembourg European Court of Justice.

    I agree with the idea that the big culprits in the patent case are the countries (i.e. the democratically elected government of Ireland?) that probably asked the Commission to keep drafting a directive about it.

  85. Denmark goes against software patents by erik_norgaard · · Score: 2, Informative

    The socialist party withdrew definitively their support for the current directive last week.

    The directive no longer have a majority support in the parliarment, and so the government has no mandate to vote in favour of the directive.

    This means that even if the directive appears as an A-item, it must be blocked.

    In danish (sorry - I have no english equivalent):
    http://www.computerworld.dk/default. asp?Mode=2&Art icleID=27184

  86. I'm portuguese... by Bothari · · Score: 1

    ...and the guy *is* incompetent. So much so that he *ran* for cover leaving his second-in-command to take the historical beating their party got at the national legistlative elections.

    It was the greatest turn-around in public support in the shortest time in the history of democracy in portugal (which, admitidly, is rather short at 31 years :P) ...And now he "runs" the comission... there is no justice...

    1. Re:I'm portuguese... by reallocate · · Score: 1

      Seems to indicate how seriously Europeans take that commission, eh?

      My point wasn't the accuracy or inaccuracy of describing him as incompetent. My point was the counterproductive impact of that kind of little screed.

      Why counterproductive? Because it turns off people who don't think he is incompetent (there must be some) before you have had a chance to persuade them about your position.

      Needlessly alienating people whose support you need in a partisan political effort is just stupid.

      --
      -- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
  87. Yes, they can - it's in the rules! by spamhog · · Score: 1

    The EU is still basically an inter-governmental entity. Parliament has a consultative more than decisionmaking role - it can shame the commission into acting or not acting, but it can't force it.

    It's a bit as if the US president were elected by the state governments and had some legislative power as well.

  88. Re:In the name - complaining instead of doing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As a Portuguese I've failed to see this news in any portuguese newspaper. So I decided to compose a news story based on this information and sent it to several portuguese newspapers.

    It is important to drop this bomb in the "technological bandwagon", one of the major flags in the policy of the winning portuguese party in these last government elections, ocurring 2 weeks past.

    If we can drop this in one newspaper, everyone will make a story out of it, and this new government will definitely take it a three to one win: Take down the next best successor in the opposition party (Durão Barroso), carry out their promise of technological self-awareness and try to supress Ireland's newfound highstand. These are the 3 big political goals I can see that could persuade this new portuguese government to say no to this proposition.

    I will also send it to the winning party's email to see if someone fishes it and see it as an opportunity, not to do some good actually, but to pursue their own political agenda which, in turn, helps us all.

    Place your bets... sorry, blessings everyone.

  89. Re: Why the EC can just ignore the EP by Kergan · · Score: 1

    Several bodies are involved in EU decisions:

    • The European Parliament (EP), whose members are directly elected by European citizens.
    • The European Commission (EC), whose members are named by EU member Heads of States.
    • The Council of the European Union (Council), whose members of the Heads of States themselves.

    There are several other bodies, but these are the main to know.

    The decision process itself is quite complex. Actually, it is the decision processes, as there are over 30 of them. The things to pinpoints are:

    • Historically, the EP had no decision power whatsoever. It was only consulted to get an opinion. In theory, this has changed. But in theory only because there are several ways to bypass the parliament entirely.
    • The EC, in theory, is the executive body. But it shares some of its executive powers with the Council, which has the last word on much about everything. It also shares some of the EP's legislative powers: to put it simply, the EP is not supposed to give its opinion on anything when not asked to by the EC.
    • The Council, as previously noted, has the last word on much about everything. And it can boss EC members around as it sees fit.

    As such, to answer your question: I'm not sure the EP was not supposed to give its opinion on the topic in the first place. And if so, there are so many ways to bypass the EP that the EC can safely go its way without taking it in account.

    I'd personally compare the European politicians to those of a banana republic. The thing that shocks me the most is not so much that the EC ignores the EP -- since they've more or less the right to do so. Rather, it is the display of arrogance. It is becoming more or less common practice in the EU to make voters return to the ballots as many times as it takes for them to get the answer right.

  90. Require exponential maintenance fees instead! by Deven · · Score: 1

    I have a better solution. Require an exponentially-growing maintenance fee to keep patents and copyrights out of the public domain. Companies with valuable "intellectual property" can keep them as long as the fee is less than the expected benefit.

    Fees should be higher and grow faster for patents than copyrights, since they're more exclusive. Eventually, the fee will be ridiculously expensive (but it's all relative), and the work will be allowed to enter the public domain where it belongs.

    Copyrights should start with a free period of automatic copyright protection without registration, but require registration and fees after a year (or several) for continued protection. Modest copyright terms should be affordable to all, while excessive terms will eventually be prohibitively expensive to everyone.

    This would be a fair system. The public would be increasingly compensated for the sacrifice it makes to honor the exclusive rights, while abandoned works would enter the public domain far more quickly.

    Meanwhile, it would provide another revenue stream for the government that doesn't involve arbitrary taxes. Only those who feel it's in their best interest to maintain the protections would pay these fees. With "intellectual properties" that are worth hundreds of millions to billions of dollars, this could be a substantial revenue stream indeed.

    Such a system would truly be in the public interest, but the content industry would abhor such a reform -- they're too used to the free ride they've had so long at the public's expense...

    --

    Deven

    "Simple things should be simple, and complex things should be possible." - Alan Kay

    1. Re:Require exponential maintenance fees instead! by Elmasgigante · · Score: 1

      If you'd couple the fee structure to the original investment (as per my original idea) perhaps it could make sense, because how would you determine the amount of the fees otherwise ? Ie., the idea would be that if you want to claim more investment with your patent because you think it's gonna pay back big time, then expect to pay more fees as well or abandon it and make it public domain.

      I'm not sure though that it would make business sense to obtain a patent since you'd be charged ever increasing fees even if you don't make any profit from your invention. This might be too much of a deterrent for many entrepreneurs in terms of risk-taking.

    2. Re:Require exponential maintenance fees instead! by Deven · · Score: 1

      If fewer patents are sought, that's great. Let the inventions be in the public domain from the start if they're not worth patenting. We have way too many patents as it stands.

      But I don't really see a need to couple the fee structure to the original investment. The issue isn't as much about what it cost to create the work, but what the public is losing by keeping it exclusive to the author/inventor. Like I said, a nominal fee should give you protection for a few years, but eventually the cost should be become noticable, then subtantial, and finally exorbitant.

      If Disney wants to pay $1 billion to keep their copyrights on Mickey Mouse for another year or three, let them! They'll only do that if they can reasonably expect to get at least that much money out of the public for it. If the public is going to pay billions of dollars for the creative work that we (as a society) have allowed Disney to keep us from using, why shouldn't the public get some payback for the privilege?

      It sure is a better source of government revenue than income taxes! And I bet there's enough copyrighted works and inventions that are profitable enough to justify quite a lot of such revenue...

      --

      Deven

      "Simple things should be simple, and complex things should be possible." - Alan Kay

    3. Re:Require exponential maintenance fees instead! by Elmasgigante · · Score: 1

      I understand and agree with your desire to have more public as opposed to private benefit from IP, but don't forget that inventions do not come about just because of a public education system. By which I mean to say that inventors contribute something that is truly theirs and was not there already somehow in the public domain. True inventions and innovation require a serious effort for which the inventor wants to be rewarded (why put in the effort otherwise ?).

      In your system it doesn't matter if you're putting in tons of work to create your inventions or whether you're near to copying someone else's work. Hence, in your system great inventions that require a lot of sweat will occur less.

      In addition, some inventions require a longer time before becoming profitable. In your system, if your invention doesn't pay off within the timeschedule set by the increasing fees structure, you might as well forget about it. This is totally unattractive for any entrepreneur.

      Last but not least you shouldn't forget that where you want to go with your proposal is so radically different from where we are now (ie. too much private benefit from a publicly granted privilege), that it would never pass any legislative council that is lobbied by private interests (especially in the US).

    4. Re:Require exponential maintenance fees instead! by Deven · · Score: 1

      The reward for creating inventions and works of authorship is the "copyright bargain" -- society allows the creator exclusive rights for a limited period for the sole purpose of encouraging the creation and dissemination of such works, which otherwise might not be created at all.

      Sweat equity has never been a defining factor in copyright issues -- the Supreme Court ruled in the Feist case that some minimal standard of originality is required. A data compilation which takes lots of labor to compile but contains no originality does not become eligible for copyright protection merely because of the work required to create it.

      As for the time it takes for a work to become profitable, consider that most businesses operate on a 5-10 year horizon. How many businesses are investing their time, money and efforts into endeavors calculated to pay off in 30 years? Very few indeed.

      My thinking is that the original copyright term (14 years) should be very cheap, easily affordable by any starving college student. Getting to the original copyright limit (28 years) should be only moderately more expensive (maybe a few thousand dollars). Getting to current limits (95 years) should be prohibitively expensive. That's just too long.

      But it should take 40-50 years before the fees start reaching into the million-dollar range. If you can't build a market after decades, you shouldn't still be keeping your work from the public anyhow -- it's obviously not going anywhere anyhow.

      If you could pay in advance for future years, it would save on paperwork. For the sake of example, imagine that the first 3 years of copyright is free and automatic -- no registration required (as now). But then you have to pay a $10 fee to renew for another 3 years, and register the copyright (as used to always be required). Then double for every 3-year period after that. (If registrants pay in advance, they should still have an affirmative duty to maintain current contact information with the Copyright Office, or risk losing their copyrights if they cannot be contacted by someone who might want to license their works...)

      You would get 3 years of copyright for free; 6 years for $10; 9 years for $30; 12 years for $70; 15 years for $150; 18 years for $310; 21 years for $630; 24 years for $1,270; 27 years for $2,550; 30 years for $5,110; 33 years for $10,230; 36 years for $20,470; 39 years for $40,950; 42 years for $81,910; 45 years for $163,830; 48 years for $327,670; 51 years for $655,350; 54 years for $1,310,710; 57 years for $2,621,430; 60 years for $5,242,870; 63 years for $10,485,750; 66 years for $20,971,510; 69 years for $41,943,030; 72 years for $83,886,070; 75 years for $167,772,150; 78 years for $335,544,310; 81 years for $671,088,630; 84 years for $1,342,177,270; 87 years for $2,684,354,550; 90 years for $5,368,709,110; ...

      As you can see, anyone could afford a few years of copyright protection, and it would take several decades before coming anywhere close to the development cost for commercially-created works. By 60 years, the costs are substantial, and prohibitive by 90 years.

      If you can get 21 years of protection for $630 total, and most money is made on works in less time than that, is the cost really such an obstacle? And for the few works which are still profitable after such time, it remains affordable for quite a while longer for moderately profitable products.

      Go back and read the amici briefs by economists by economists in the Sonny Bono Copyright Term Extension challenge -- almost ALL of the value of copyrights is in the first few years, and virtually none at the end. I don't see that this scheme would be such a disincentive to creation.

      However, I do agree that it would be nearly impossible to pass, given the political system and the amount of influence content providers have.

      P.S. Those example numbers would have to be very different for patents, since they preclude independent invention. Patents should be getting prohibitively expensive by 20 years, not 90 years.

      --

      Deven

      "Simple things should be simple, and complex things should be possible." - Alan Kay

  91. Democracy is not a be all end all by alexo · · Score: 1


    Sure, democracy is way better than some of the alternatives, but not everything should be decided by a popularity contest.

  92. Re:"someone who failed as Portuguese prime ministe by DenDave · · Score: 1
    It's a blow in me national pride each time
    Imagine what it does to nationals of Belgium..
    --
    -if at first you don't succeed, stay the heck away from paragliding.