Going Beyond the 2 Week Notice?

rovingeyes asks: "Immediately after graduating about two and a half years ago, I joined a local website design and hosting company that was looking for software developers. But soon disaster struck. The chief developer/systems administrator left the company soon after I joined and after a month of his leaving another developer quit, which meant that I was the only developer left in the company. Now for almost 2 years I have been taking care of pretty much everything from systems administration to end-user technical support to development. And after a long time I realized that the growth potential in this company is pretty limited. So I decided to look for other jobs and immediately got multiple offers. Now my boss wants 6 weeks notice plus on call service for another 3 months at subsidized rates. Is my boss being reasonable?" "Since I am the only developer in the company, I thought giving a 4 week notice instead of 2 would be reasonable, but this happened. Another requirement he added was the need that I be on-call if any disaster strikes with the server infrastructure. Now this is my first real job ever and I don't know how to respond to it. I normally don't outsource, even though the money is good, because I don't want to compromise my current duties. My boss knows this.

Thus this question to my fellow Slashdot readers: Is my boss being reasonable? I can understand his view point of losing the only developer/systems administrator in the company. But I don't think I am bound by any law that I should provide those kinds of services (since we have no contract in place). Should I negotiate or just ignore them? Is a burnt bridge worth it?"

Comments

Are you mad?

[cjsnell]

You don't owe your employer anything. Two weeks notice is being reasonable. Four weeks notice is being professional. Anything beyond that is uncalled for unless your employer has been really nice to you over the years.

Tell this guy to take his "subsidized rates" and shove 'em.

Re:Are you mad?

[Roadkills-R-Us]

2 weeks would be acceptable, 4 weeks is about right, especially since this is a startup and you have been crucial. Then again, it doesn't sound as if he's really treated you as a key person.

As to his expectations, he's trying to cover his fanny for being stupid enough to run this way. He should never have had you as the sole techie., or if he did, he should have been working on golden handcuffs. (Even there, he's gotta have a backup plan. What if you got hit by a tiny comet?)

I'd ask myself a couple of questions at this point.

1) How has he treated me overall?
2) What do I want at this point-- extra work and money, or to get on with life and have some free time?

Those should help you decide what to do.

Personally, I would not be likely to do what he asks, even if the boss was my best friend, unless the compensation was very, very good.

And as other have said. don't sign anything!

Re:Are you mad?

[DShard]

I disagree, two weeks notice is a professional curtesy and four weeks means your a doormat. It is, quite frankly, entirely the former employers problem. The lack of foresight and employee concern this boss seems to portray is indicative of what most likely mean a dead company.

to the poster:
You never want to work there or for that boss again, so go nuts with it. Tell them to eat you. They did the same thing during your time there and with this request. If you already have other things lined out don't even give the boss two weeks (unless you have accrued vacation, then take that for pay). If they say anything other than "rehirable" to a future employer sue them (hehe, ok that may be going overboard.)

I have been in a similar situation and as long as you have something lined up, the rest doesn't matter.

More important than bending over and taking it is not to complain about it at your next job. The last thing new management/coworkers want to hear about is how crappy your last boss was. It makes you look bad and not them.

Re:Are you mad?

[fm6]

Tell this guy to take his "subsidized rates" and shove 'em.

This is the part that has me scratching my head. This boss is either an incredible idiot, or there's some factor we don't know about. He's just not in any position to make that kind of demand unless there's some kind of employment contract in play.

If there is such a contract, the guy needs a labor lawyer, stat. But if the boss's logic is "I need this, therefore you owe it to me," the obvious answer is, "Fuck you. It's two weeks notice and I'm out of here." A fair, responsible employer deserves better than that (basically, one should stick around for a reasonable period to help find and train the new guy). But that's not this company. They've been mismanaging their human resources, and don't want to take responsibility for it. They're no reason an ex-employee should make any sacrifice to help them out.

Re:Are you mad?

[itwerx]

Disregard the parent. The IT industry is as incestuous as any other and burned bridges *will* come back to haunt you.
As for the notice, I've given as much as six months (for bosses I liked :). I've never, ever quit with less than two weeks though, even working with what turned out to be complete idiots/assholes.
As for the subsidized on-call, that just depends on how much free time you'll have and if you feel like doing it or not. (Also depends on what exactly "subsidized" means?!?)

Re:Are you mad?

[itwerx]

As a follow-up to the on-call, get it all in writing in case it becomes a legal matter! Also make them sign some kind of waiver etc. Finally, since it is on-call, in addition to whatever you decide to charge them you might also consider a retainer. Finally, since they seem to like you so much and it doesn't sound like you really hate them you could think about doing a longer term support contract (charging enough to make it worth your while of course! :).

Re:Are you mad?

[TheWanderingHermit]

The above post says about 90% of what you need to know. They had at least 3 people (you, the head dev, and the other guy), lost one, kept going, lost another, kept going, and suddenly you're doing the work of at least 3 people. Oh, boy I bet the boss was happy! He paid you 1x for 3x the work! He took advantage of you for a good long while.

So it's his fault. He did not plan ahead. No employee is forever, and by keeping only one developer on, he made you indespensable. If he had treated you like you were indespensable, you would have better working conditions and better pay.

He looked out for himself by working you as hard as he could and not hiring anyone to work with you. Now it's time for you to look out for yourself. He can ask for all he wants. He's just covering his ass and I don't blame him for it. That doesn't mean you have to give it to him. He should be down on his knees thanking God you are willing to give him more than 2 weeks, or that you didn't just walk out on him.

Re:Are you mad?

[DShard]

Disregard the parent.

Nice... a page right out of "How to make friends and influence people".

The IT industry is as incestuous as any other and burned bridges *will* come back to haunt you.

I've given as much as six months

As nice as it is to wear foil hats, at some point you just have to admit you have a fetish. A lack of backbone is great in a lackey but is horrid any step further up the corporate ladder.

Re:Are you mad?

[TheWanderingHermit]

Not only get the on-call stuff in writing (if you decide to do it at all), but also make it clear to them (and make sure this is in writing), that your new job takes priority, so you are not available when you are at the new job, whether it's regular hours, overtime, or even on-call time. Also make it clear if this old boss pages you, and while working on their systems, you get paged by the new company, that the new company takes priority.

Re:Are you mad?

[lscoughlin]

Being a dick, and being a vertebrate, are not equitable.

It's a shame more people don't realize that.

It's a shame that people who don't realize that try to advise others to be a dick in the and call it "having backbone".

It is mildly amusing though.

Re:Are you mad?

[egarland]

Two weeks notice is being reasonable. Four weeks notice is being professional.

Actually, four weeks may be unprofessional depending on the needs of your new employer. The first few weeks and months at a new job are critical to making a good impression. Not being there is lousy way to make a good impression. It will likely cost you oportunity in your new job so make sure your old employer makes it worth your while.

Now my boss wants 6 weeks notice plus on call service for another 3 months at subsidized rates.

6 weeks is totally unreasonable. The good news is, you are holding all the cards here. They want something from you, you want nothing from them. Absolutely support them however much they want, but the proper payment for work like this is triple your full time rate. It keeps you motivated to help and them motivated to get someone else and not treat you like a doormat. If you need the money, they may be able to bargain you down a bit but remember, every amount of time you help them is time you are making a bad impression at your new job. Make sure its well worth it for both of you or just don't do it at all.

Re:Are you mad?

[arthurs_sidekick]

I don't see how refusing an onerous demand made by someone who lacked the foresight to plan for this eventuality makes you a "dick." It sounds to me like it's been a one-sided relationship for quite a while; the abuse has to end somewhere. It would be exceedingly nice of the OP to do more than four weeks. Being "on call" at "subsidized rates" is just the boss trying to take advantage of him.

Re:Are you mad?

[cgenman]

Tell this guy to take his "subsidized rates" and shove 'em.

Tell this guy to take his "subsidized rates" and raise'em. You're the only developer, so you're the only one who knows how their system works. That makes you extremely valuable, at least in the short term.

Dirt-cheap on call computer support (like me) is generally 50 dollars an hour. Good techies who know their stuff should be about 100. People who have extra special knowledge, like being the only person on the planet who knows how that server works, can easily get 200 or more.

Your employer can't not let you go. They can't demand that you stay six weeks. The fact that they're so admant about keeping you for as long as possible should show you how much power you have in this situation.

I'd say that if they've been great to you, of course be nice when leaving and maybe even do some light on-call stuff over the phone for free. But if they were being nice to you they wouldn't have tripled your workload... they would have hired people to replace the developers they lost.

Of course, you could go another route. What are the chances that they would agree to letting you drop down to 20 hours per week at the same salary? It happened to a very close friend of mine, who suddenly had both the money and the time to enjoy her life. It could happen to you too.

Re:Are you mad?

[dbrutus]

I don't know, an independent rate of $500 an hour with a 20% discount seems fair...

Explain to him that being the only developer, underpaid, at a startup was an abuse of the investors' money and that you're willing to keep quiet about that if he's willing to cut the crap. Indentured servitude went out with the 14th amendment and you already have your next job.

I've been threatened by a boss before when I left. The threat caused me to stop work right then and there and leave to start the next job I had already landed. Nothing ever happened in retaliation. Somebody was hired to replace me and finish up the work I left dangling and that's that. Unless you have children to feed and no other way of earning money, don't ever work under threat.

Re:Are you mad?

[Nos.]

Everytime I've changed jobs when offered the new position, they ask when I can start. My answer is usually the same. I would prefer to give my current employer at least two weeks notice. If I was in the middle of a bigger project, I might ask for a longer time before my start date if my employer deserved it. I worked for a small webhosting company for a year. I built a brand new control panel to fit their... unique environment. I helped build an automated billing system (billing had been done manually until that point). After 1 year, during my "review" they had no complaints about me. I asked for a raise. They said they didn't see me getting a raise for the forseeable future as I was the highest paid employee at the time (just over 50K/year) which was less than I had made previous to taking this job. Luckily I was on a leave of absence from my previous position. I informed them I would be returning in two weeks and game my notice to the web hosting company.

The brought in a new guy to take over the work I was doing and I trained him as much as I could in the time available. They asked if they could call me at work if they had problems. I said no. My employer was not paying me to handle your problems. They asked if they could call/email me after regular hours. I said sure, but that by contacting me they were agreeing to a $250/hour consulting rate, minimum 3 hours with no guarantee on resolution of the issue.

Never did hear from them. Did I burn a bridge? Probably. Do I regret it? No. I will not be taken advantage of. If a company refuses to recognize my contribution in any meaningful way, and then asks for my help afterwards with little or no compensation, I'm not going to bend over for them.

Re:Are you mad?

[einTier]

From other friends I've had in the same position and from my experience, two weeks notice is plenty unless there's some kind of extenuating circumstance -- but typically your new job won't want to wait two weeks, much less four. They have needs to fill as well (that's why they're hiring), and can't wait forever.

Any time spent after that is typically billed at double pay and is subject to your availibility. If they need you to talk the new programmer through some stuff, they can certainly get you, but it will cost them. If they have an emergency that only you can fix, they'd better hope it's when you can attend to it. I've even had friends negotiate quadruple time (from the original rate) for anything after 1am and holidays.

This will make them think twice about calling you for something frivolous, and it gives you a good incentive to go back and help them. It will also keep them from doing this stupid shit again. If you're going to run with an indispensible employee, then you'd better have some contingency plans for when they leave -- and you'd better treat them like they are indespensible, happy employees don't go looking for work.

Bottom line, and others have said it, this guy fucked up. Now he wants you to cover his fuckup and do it on the cheap. You're under no obligation to do so. If he was a decent employer I'd certainly give him enough notice to find a new employee and get some knowledge transfer and I'd leave him with plenty of documentation on how to run things in your absence. What I wouldn't do is give him so much time that it puts my new job in jeopardy or give him extra time at anything below ordinary contractor rates. You're under no obligation to do anything other than say, "here's my two weeks notice."

Re:Are you mad?

[iocat]

My old company had this awesome deal... Although it was California and "at will employment" (meaning either party could terminate the work agreement at any time, for any reason, with no notice required), they had a policy of two-weeks per year notice. If you'd been there three years, they'd expect six-weeks notice, and if they canned you or laid you off, policy was to pay you six-weeks severence.

They lived up to their end, even during rough times, so most employees lived up to theirs, even though none of it was enforceable.

Ultimately, a lot of it depends on what the new place wants. If they want you in four weeks, that's where your loyalty lies now, not to your old boss.

Re:Are you mad?

[itwerx]

they had a policy of two-weeks per year notice
That's pretty cool! And if business keeps up I'll be hiring again soon, I just might have to implement that. :)

Re:Are you mad?

[dextr0us]

Not responding positivly to such a terrible demand is one thing, but to take the approach of the parent:

"You never want to work there or for that boss again, so go nuts with it. Tell them to eat you. They did the same thing during your time there and with this request. If you already have other things lined out don't even give the boss two weeks (unless you have accrued vacation, then take that for pay). If they say anything other than "rehirable" to a future employer sue them (hehe, ok that may be going overboard."

thats another thing entirely.

Re:Are you mad?

[AuMatar]

$250 was a bit overkill, it pretty much assures no buisness. Double your hourly wage would be more reasonable, and you may actually have gotten some extra cash out of it.

Re:Are you mad?

[Anonymous Coward]

Everytime I've changed jobs when offered the new position, they ask when I can start. My answer is usually the same. I would prefer to give my current employer at least two weeks notice. If I was in the middle of a bigger project, I might ask for a longer time before my start date if my employer deserved it.

I did the exact same thing when I interviewed for a position a while back - they asked when I could start and I said 'I have to give 1 month's notice, but since I'd have a project to hand over, it might be prudent to give two... - either way I can't just walk out the door tomorrow'.

The reply I got? 'Good, we'd not hire you if you did'.

Professionalism impresses your new employer, who at this point is more important than your old one.

Anon.

I didn't take it in the end, but they were still keen to see me again if I changed my mind

Re:Are you mad?

[TheSeventh]

A friend of mine did this. He found a better job, and gave two weeks. Of course, he was their only developer as well, and easily tripled the amount of business they received over the internet. He also programmed in as many languages as he could come up with (for job security or what, I don't know.)

They couldn't find anyone to replace him who knew the more than 10 languages he used at a reasonable price, so he did on-call work for them. $30,000/year to be available, plus hourly rates when he would come in. Talk about a nice gig!


On a side note, where do you live? There's an IT job opening up, and this employer should pay a new employee rather well, considering what you are going to be charging him per hour . . .

Re:Are you mad?

[Anonymous Coward]

You could always make them a counter offer since you are so indespensible. You could tell them that you would be willing to continue working for them for a promotion and a big fat raise. If not you walk. Maybe you would even want to show him the offers that were already made to you.

Re:Are you mad?

[jazman]

> he's trying to cover his fanny

That always makes me laugh. But then I am English. Men don't have fannies in England.

Re:Are you mad?

[HungWeiLo]

Wow...the average employee at my workplace has been here for 20 years...that's a one-year advance notice!

Re:Are you mad?

[earlytime]

You friend is a real ballbreaker. If I was his boss, I'd at least restrict his work to a specific language, and toolset. At worst I'd fire him. Developing code which is unmaintainable is unacceptable, no matter how well it runs.
In his situation, charging 30K for "on-call work" is either blackmail, or ransom. If they can't find someone else because of the high skill level required, that's one thing. If they can't find anyone else beacuse he intentionally wrote code in 10 languages (how's that different from obfuscation?) for job security, then he's holding the future of the company's operations for ransom.

Regardless, the bottom line is that it's his boss's fault for not reigning him in before he could do so much damage.

Re:Are you mad?

[Anonymous Coward]

Four weeks a doormat?????

I served in the British Army and had to give 52 weeks notice to leave!!! a Few years before that it was 18 months notice!!!!!

Re:Are you mad?

[aogilmor]

I disagree. It's not the kind of thing you want to bring to an interview, but once hired, go ahead and entertain your coworkers and managers with stories how crappy your last boss was, or how hopeless that company is. They all welcome the distraction. Besides, everybody has some Schadenfreude (pleasure in the misfortune at others, for you non-German speakers!) No matter how bad it is here, look how bad they've got it there! Management here is GREAT (compared to over THERE LOL).

Re:Are you mad?

[afidel]

Uh, how do you know that's NOT double his hourly wage when you include benifits? If you make $100K / year then the cost to your employer is roughly $100/hour double that and you get to $200/hour, so it's not that far off. As a consultant I generally charge $150/hour and for some clients who have infrequent need for my service but where the problems they have when they DO need me justify it I charge $200/hour, and I'm in the midwest.

Re:Are you mad?

[ralatalo]

Don't burn your bridges, but don't roll over either.

Ask your boss what's the difference between 2 weeks and 4 weeks or 6 weeks? What are their plans? If they are planning on hiring someone to replace you, ask to be part of the hiring process.

If they aren't planning on replacing you, then why waste your time. If they don't want you to be part of the hiring process then either they aren't planning on replacing you, or they are planning on waiting till you're gone to start looking... in either case.... walk away.

If they agree to let you be part of the hiring process, then review *with yourself* a list of all your job functions (good time to make notes, etc... ) and try to decide how long it would take to go over everything with someone at your skill level. *image you were just walking in*

Once you start talking to the replacement candidates you will have a much better idea of what would be required for a smooth transition.

2 weeks is a little tight to go though the hiring process but 4 weeks should be fine.

You don't want to be on call unless you are planning on continuing to collect a pay check from them, but you may want to leave your replacement your number if he has any questions

At some point in this process you should feel comfortable leaving. Of course it's all complicated if you have already accepted a new position and start date, if you haven't then you can generally hint that they may want to replace you before you leave... and then follow the above.

Re:Are you mad?

[SmileeTiger]

Sometimes you have to read a post before commenting on it: He stated that he made just over 50K/year

Re:Are you mad?

[Anonymous Coward]

I recall an English Scout troop getting a lot of amusement out of our camp store, where they could buy a fanny pack.

Re:Are you mad?

[nosfucious]

One school of though on this (The Dilbert School): Your boss has probably been collecting bonuses for keeping wages costs down in your department. Now, the decision comes back to bight him in the arse.

Unless he gave you a share of the cheque: His problem, not yours.

Re:Are you mad?

[plague3106]

It sounds like he wasn't being appreciated at all, in the very least. Why should he care what happens once he's gone? Give two weeks, if they have someone to transition to do that.

If he wants to do on call support, he can basically give any terms he likes. They need him, not the other way around.

Re:Are you mad?

[plague3106]

I fail to see why anything other than two weeks is being thrown around here.

If an employee leaves its because his employer was not making the employee happy. I'll conseed that some employees are unreasonable about what it will take to make them happy. However in that case, is that an employee that a company wants to keep?

If the employee's concerns are reasonable, then it is totally the companies fault for the employee wanting to leave. More often this is probably the case.

I'm not saying be a dick and screwing them over..just quietly find something new and give two weeks. Continue being a professional until your'e gone.

Re:Are you mad?

[plague3106]

Obviously they were ok with it or they wouldn't have let him do it.

I bet if a company did something similar you'd say 'wlel they followed their contract, he should just STFU.'

Re:Are you mad?

[fm6]

If an employee leaves its because his employer was not making the employee happy.

Nonsense. Being pissed off is not the only reason to leave your job. There's career strategy, returning to school, wanting/needing to relocate, etc. etc.

I once worked for a year writing technical support docs at a big computer company. I had good relatships with my boss, her boss, and my co-workers. I was just a contractor, but they treated me like a member of the team, and there was talk of my going permanent. But I wanted to be an API writer, so when I got a chance to do that, I gave notice.

My contract was day-to-day, so legally, I didn't even owe them two weeks notice. But it would have been totally unfair to leave these people in the lurch. Unprofessional, even if these guys weren't my friends. So I hung around for a month so they could find a replacement and I could spend some time bringing her up to speed. They were reasonably nice about the whole thing, and even footed the bill for the traditional goodbye lunch.

A lot of bosses treat their employees like shit, and they don't deserve any more consideration than you absolutely have to give them. But you should never screw over a friend, even if he happens to be your boss.

Re:Are you mad?

[plague3106]

True, I forgot about those reasons. In that case what you said may make sense...but it really depends on how you've been treated.

Re:Are you mad?

[biglig2]

We don't really have much fanny on slashdot, either...

Re:Are you mad?

[Anonymous Coward]

I recall an English Scout troop getting a lot of amusement out of our camp store, where they could buy a fanny pack.

Then again, most people wear them with the pouch at the front, so perhaps the name does make sense after all...

Re:Are you mad?

[frenetic3]

This is a super long post, but this is a very tricky issue and one that most developers encounter at some point (especially those working for startups.)

I had the same problem: I was the key (and practically sole) developer for a startup where I had worked for about two years, and wanted to resign (for reasons I won't get into.)

Though it would have been perfectly within my rights to leave after 2 weeks notice, the company would have been fucked. However, rather than leaving the company up shit's creek, I worked hard to interview and hire two replacements. Once the hiring process was complete I gave my 2 weeks notice and spent it helping the replacements get up to speed. The transition was fine and though I got a few calls thereafter, I made it clear that I would charge my hourly rate with a two hour minimum (to prevent them from hassling me with 5 minute phone calls.) I could have commanded higher rates but it wouldn't have been worth the damage to my relationship w/ the founders. I'm sounding a little preachy, but want to be clear that I didn't do this just to be "nice" -- other posters have rightly pointed out that burning bridges will come back to haunt you and conversely a good reference can be invaluable. I was lucky in that since the negotiations and transition went well, we're still on good terms and they'll be an enthusiastic reference in the future.

My case was a little different, however, because we were planning to hire people anyway and the process was nearly finished when I decided to resign -- so the timing was pretty good. In your case, it will probably be more complicated.

Realize your boss is scared shitless and knows he's fucked if you leave. This is good and bad -- it'll force him to take action but will leave him on edge. As a result, he'll make a lot of demands to cover his ass (as many of us would in his shoes.) Some will likely be unreasonable.

First, prepare yourself for the discussion.

Read this book: Getting to Yes: Negotiating Agreement Without Giving In (non-referrer link) It's inexpensive and a quick read, and you can imagine the cost of negotiating poorly and getting a sour deal (and possibly ruining your relationship with him.) In addition, think of how often you negotiate, both in personal and professional relationships -- you'll be able to use the techniques for the rest of your life.

Anyway, having gone through a similar process, here's what I'd do. I'm not claiming to be an expert, but maybe you'll find some of the suggestions useful (they're basically direct applications of the concepts in the book):

First, figure out the market value of your time (salary.com, your new salary, etc., plus premiums for late or weekend work if you can) and a fair cost for being on call (per month or per incident or whatever.) There have been other slashdot articles discussing this (google "on call" on slashdot.org.) Look over your employment contract, think of past precedents, read up on old emails and things you may have agreed to before, etc. Do your homework before the discussion.

To make things a little less adversarial, reassure your boss that you've enjoyed working with him and that you know him to be a fair person, and that you're confident you can work out a deal that is fair to both sides. Whenever you can, try to make things less personal ("separate the people from the problem.")

Then tell him that you need to move on for your reasons, and that although you sincerely want to make your former company's transition as painless as possible, you will only have a limited amount of time to help after your departure and expect to be fairly compensated for that time.

Then, figure out what your boss wants from the arrangement -- listen carefully to his concerns. You might think you have a handle on them already but you will almost certainly discover crucial details in the discussion.

He may bring up trust or loyalty or guilt yo

Re:Are you mad?

[Grishnakh]

Although this seems a bit excessive, especially for very long-term employees (26 years = 1 year notice), what this boils down to is a matter of honor and loyalty, things that are missing from most companies these days. If this company could manage to get people to respect this unenforceable agreement (especially by holding up their end of the bargain), that's really quite an accomplishment.

From what I can tell in the main article, the poster's company has no such honor, and quite frankly, after trying to get him to agree to such ridiculous severance terms with no benefit whatsoever to himself, they don't deserve any notice at all.

Its a courtesy..

[huber]

You can leave the same day if you want. I have quite jobs and left the same day. Its a courtesy to you boss and coworkers. thats all.

Re:Its a courtesy..

[glk572]

I've been hired and quit within the same hour. Telemarketing sucks.

As for the on call, go for it, write your own new contract, demand at least $50 an hour including drive time. You don't owe them anything but if they want to keep you on call there's no reason not to turn it to your advantage.

For those who think that this is an unreasonable amount, call a plumber, locksmith, electrician, repairman, any on call professional has the right to demand whatever the market will bear; and considering that these people seem to have had recruiting problems they may scoff at first, but when the shit hits the fan they'll come running.

Even better wait to negotiate a new contract until they're having an emergency.

I mean worst case they're going to say no, and if they say yes $$$

Re:Its a courtesy..

[Knara]

I wonder if this may be the very first time on slashdot that a "???" didn't come before "PROFIT!"

Re:Its a courtesy..

[PranksterJD]

I wonder if this may be the very first time on slashdot that a "???" didn't come before "PROFIT!"

Well I'm hoping he didn't go through all this to take a pay cut, so I'd imagine profit is in there somewhere.

Re:Its a courtesy..

[squant0]

$50 per hour?

I know some software consultants that have only a few years experience that are making over $125/hour that work over 40 hours/week for companies. The least that should be demanded is what normal software consultants make, push up to over $100/hour (the drive time thing's a good idea too ;)

Re:Its a courtesy..

[TheWanderingHermit]

$50 an hour????

I get $60 an hour for doing psychic readings. For this kind of service I'd think he should be charging at least $85 or $100 an hour, probably more like $150. If the boss doesn't like it, he doesn't have to pay it. This guy is moving on, having to learn new systems and deal with a lot of other things in life. To have to be on call like that when he's trying to get out is a big weight to carry.

If the boss doesn't like it, he doesn't have to call him and pay the $150/hour.

Re:Its a courtesy..

[Bob MacSlack]

Try $100-$150/hour at reasonable times of day during the week, and $200-$300/hour any other time for on call stuff. When they're losing money and you're indispensible, they get to pay out the nose.

Re:Its a courtesy..

[WebCrapper]

I wasn't hired, but I went to a job interview for a collections agency. After their gastapo HR lady fnishished chewing all of our asses about how good the job was, half of us walked out.

On the other side, I was forced to attend a 5 week training class for a Verizon contractor. One of those companies that says "we only hire the top 10%!" and you can look around and see the bottom 2% and pond scum... 5 weeks plus 1 day on the phone, I walked without notice and never looked back. Went to a company that actually hired the top 2% (had the numbers to proove it). Interesting job, but I'm just not one for a banking environment - WAY too damn picky. I had flashbacks of Office Space on a normal basis. I had to fill out a request for highlighters, have that approved and delivered then I had to sign saying it would only be used for company stuff.

I've had one bridge burn me, but it worked out in the long run. Other jobs have always gotten 2 weeks notice. My current employer is one of those walk out issues though. I'm a contractor and the company is so messed up that they have it written in their contract that if you quit w/o a 2 weeks notice, they can keep your entire salary for the month. Guess I'll get paid, close that bank account and move on with my life with my own company.

Welcome to at-will employment

[bconway]

You never mentioned being under contract, so I'll assume you aren't. That being said, this is business, you owe your old company nothing, and it owes you nothing. They could fire you at any point for any (non-illegal) reason, and you can quit at any time. Two weeks is a _courtesy_ you are giving the company, when you are required to give none. Settle for anything more and you're being duped.

Re:Welcome to at-will employment

[nocomment]

He actually did mention that he is _not_ under contract. I think it's unreasonable for a boss to say that 6 weeks is a "requirement". I think the asker is screwed anyway, and the bridge is burned. Get out of there and don't look back. I have a lot of bosses who would give me a bad reference simply because I moved on. If you found a new job, ask the new job when they need you and tell your boss the requirements of the new job. Most employers understand the 2 week courtesy and will let you start after a couple weeks to tie things up at your new job. Slightly offtopic: I had a boss once who refused to talk to me or even look at me after I put in my two weeks. That was really uncomfortable. If it's a situation like that just bail.

Re:Welcome to at-will employment

[TheAngryMob]

"Non-illegal?" Is that the same as "legal?"

Re:Welcome to at-will employment

[DukeLinux]

Most employers will not give you 5 minutes notice. I work in PA which is an "at will" State, which means that legally no notice or reason is legally required. You simply give you employer back any property that belongs to them and walk out. They call that burning bridges but almost every company that I ever worked for and gave "professional" notice to had a policy of never hiring back a person who leaves no matter what. Screw them. They certainly will screw you when the time is right.

Re:Welcome to at-will employment

[Tom7]

Is no no the same as yes?

Re:Welcome to at-will employment

[DustMagnet]

I have a lot of bosses who would give me a bad reference simply because I moved on.

I know you're on my foe list, but this isn't personal, I promise.

I find your statement very strange. I've never seen a single bad reference (I hear most people fear giving a bad references for legal reasons). If you've had multiple previous bosses trash you, maybe there is something wrong with you?

Like I said, I'm not trying to make this a personal attack, but I've just never heard of someone with multiple bad references.

It makes me think of something I read in an AARP magazine (inlaw's, I hate AARP). It was an article about, "How do I know if I'm a bad driver." One thing on the list was, "Do people honk at you more than they used to."

Please don't take this as an insult. I've read a number of your recent posts and can't see how you made it on my foe list other than the one that started with a lower case letter. Sorry, I'm a nut.

Re:Welcome to at-will employment

[Anonymous Coward]

Unless you're somewhat important in the corporate hierarchy (executives, mainly), most companies specifically prefer not to let you know it's coming. Especially for technical staff. Gives you time to fuck with the systems before you leave.

Everytime we've fired someone, their access cards have been taken immediately and they've been watched every moment until they left the building. Awkward, to say the least.

Our environment gives us better reason to do that than most others, but it seems to be the same just about everywhere.

Re:Welcome to at-will employment

[jerde]

> "Non-illegal?" Is that the same as "legal?"

actually, no.

saying that you fired someone for a "legal reason" implies that you had some sort of significant reason for firing them, like, imbezzlement or somesuch.

Whereas it's perfectly fine to fire somebody 'cause you want to. or cause you want somone new. or you felt like it.

BUT, it is ILLEGAL to fire someone because of their gender, ethnic background, age, religion, etc, except in some very specfic circumstances.

So, the succinct way to put it is, you may fire someone for any non-illegal reason. :)

FYI, Minnesota requires 2-week notice from either employer or employee, but nothing more.

- Peter

Re:Welcome to at-will employment

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

I have a lot of bosses who would give me a bad reference simply because I moved on.

> I find your statement very strange. I've never seen a single bad
> reference (I hear most people fear giving a bad references for
> legal reasons). If you've had multiple previous bosses trash
> you, maybe there is something wrong with you?

Nah, he's not the problem.
It just his taste in women, all his ex-wives are real bitches,
you can't blame him for that.

Re:Welcome to at-will employment

[jumbledInTheHead]

It's called litotes its poetry, but yes, yes it is the same in meaning.

Re:Welcome to at-will employment

[Anonymous Coward]

Crux of the matter: REFERENCES

If this guy has other job offers in hand, and they are serious, he can drop this job & leave any time. Period. The place where this might bite him in the ass is if those new employers then decide to do a background check, and the current employer smears him.

That's happened to me [without the part about wanting to move on] and I am still trying to retrain for a whole new line of work. It took me a year or so of job hunting after getting downsized, to realize what was going on.

So do make sure the net is really there before you jump.

Re:Welcome to at-will employment

[bedessen]

I have read that many experienced managers/interviewers can sniff out a less than enthusiastic reference just from the tone and choice of words, even if the reference says nothing outright negative or derogatory. I wouldn't say it's really the case that anyone would give an outright negative reference ("This employee was terrible") unless the person was really terrible.. but rather that they would say something neutral like "the employee was competent and punctual" rather than perhaps "this person was a real rock star, you should be glad to have him."

no

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like it'd be burning a bridge to a sinking ship. Do what's best for your career.

Re:No

[Profane MuthaFucka]

In the United States, slavery is illegal. You can leave at any time. Nobody can force you to work, either for money or for free.

Re:No

[Phillup]

Except of course for the Govt.

Think draft...

Re:No

[dynamo]

A draft can't force you to work either.

If you are going to coerce people into working for you, it's not the wisest idea to issue them guns and train them to kill.

You can tell where I'm going with this.

Re:no

[mikehoskins]

Absolutely. In most states, including my state of Kansas, you are under no obligation to give any notice. In most states, if not all, they must pay you up to the last day of employment, and may still have to pay for all vacation, depending on laws and company policy. You are *not* a slave.

It sounds like he's been repeatedly stabbing you and other employees in the back. However, as professional courtesy, give him two-weeks notice and be very nice about it.

This guy is clearly desperate. Who knows, perhaps you can negotiate, if you're willing to go back?

I wouldn't, though.

Re:No

[Phillup]

You can tell where I'm going with this.

Well, I can tell you that if you are a draft dodger... and you get caught, you'll be working your ass off at Fort Leavenworth.

I was just telling a guy today there were people in the service that didn't do nearly as much good as people over here who may have been draft dodgers because there were draft dodgers, sure, but they had to go to work somewhere and they had to work. They couldn't screw up. But there were guys in the service that were goof offs, their main thing was finding something to drink or stealing stuff to sell to the black market. Did they do us any good? They did us harm. Where some supposed draft dodger working 8 hours a day, six days a week was actually doing more good. People don't think about that either.

http://www.usd230.k12.ks.us/espictt/Audio/zouzas.h tml

Re:No

[gstoddart]

A draft can't force you to work either.

If you are going to coerce people into working for you, it's not the wisest idea to issue them guns and train them to kill.

You're right. They can't actually force you to comply. However, behind something like a draft is the implied statement "or else we throw you in jail".

And there's a lot of crappy jobs in any military which don't require you be handed a gun. You could be digging latrines for ever, or sent to a military prison.

Re:No

[dynamo]

I wouldn't work for the US military for the same reason I wouldn't work for SCO. I vehemently oppose their current behaviour and goals. And coincidentally, each currently seems to be doing lots and lots of work that turns out to counter-productive to it's stated goals (protecting america, and harming linux, respectively).

I'd rather be in jail than killing bush's friends' political enemies any day.

Re:No

[dynamo]

For clarity once again -- stated goals != current goals. If the military was doing things that (overall, long-term) _actually_ protected america, I'd support what they do, and would want to help.

But they are just poking sticks at a bunch of people with anger to spare, and every time they kill one they make a whole family of new angry people.

he can't ask you to do everything..

[gl4ss]

..that he just feels like. besides, what's he going to do if you don't do everything like he says? fire you?-)

read your contract. check with your union(or some commie) friend what's legal and what's not. and if you really want to be a bitch.. tell him that you'll gladly consult him with problems for a 'nominal'(very high) fee afterwards.

Re:he can't ask you to do everything..

[BlueFashoo]

Actually, he can ask you to do everything that he jsut feels like. He just can't reasonably expect you to comply.

Re:he can't ask you to do everything..

[Lehk228]

he can expect whatever level of compliance he wants, that does not mean he will actually get it or be able to do anything about it.

What he said

[Richard]

At-will doesn't always work both ways, but in this case feel free.

They can fire you without any severance - you can quit without any notice, if you want.

Anything above that is gravy.

-Richard Campbell.

The first rule of quit club

[fred fleenblat]

DON'T SIGN ANYTHING!

No matter what, don't sign any contract, agreement, notice, any piece of paper they hand you. Just grab your box of stuff and walk out of the door.

Re:The first rule of quit club

[Short Circuit]

Sounds like there's a story behind that. Who screwed you, and how?

Re:The first rule of quit club

[fred fleenblat]

Not a great story.

My old man had a mild stroke. The place he worked (a school district actually, not a corporation) deperately wanted him to sign a form to the effect that the stroke was not caused by work-related stress.

I thought it was outright morbid of them to be more interested in preventing a lawsuit than, well, anything. The only action they took was ask him to sign away his rights. I think there might have been a get-well card, but it wasn't signed by the legal department that's for sure.

More generally, you just don't go around signing things because your company asks you to. It's your name on the line and the general rule is that if they ask you to sign something purely it's for their benefit. When there is a disagreement or adversarial situation their benefit is almost always your loss.

Give him the two weeks because you're nice

[Anonymous Coward]

And every day after that, your rate goes up. If he needs you for six weeks, he's going to pay for it.

Do you even need to ask?

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe you're just looking for reassurance, but it's quite clear that you already know the answer. Your boss is being incredibly unreasonable and is taking advantage of you since he probably views you as a naive college grad. If he needs three months of on-call service, perhaps he should quit being so tight-fisted and hire some new employees?

Give your two week notice, take the new job and don't look back.

Re:Do you even need to ask?

[Badfysh]

I am honestly not being rude, but he sounds like one of those 'nice guy' types who just can't say no, what we in the UK call a 'Joey'. He's basically been working three jobs for one salary for two years, no doubt doing everything and anything his boss has asked of him. No wonder they never hired any replacements after the first two left, why bother? His boss obviously thinks he can get away with asking for these ridiculous terms, I'm willing to bet he wouldn't try it with someone a bit more confident.

His boss is a piss taker, I say he's better off out of there as soon as possible, whatever way you look at it.

No

[tsho]

absolutely

You are not bound by any law

[CarlinWithers]

But it would be much better if you kept on his good side for the reference and ability to keep this as positive work experience on your resume.

Use the fact that you are only legally required to give him 2 weeks notice and nothing else as leverage. Then offer him to do what you think is reasonable. Maybe that's only giving him 1 month notice if a new job doesn't give you freedom to be on call for him. Maybe that means being on call only at times you set. Or maybe you can just offer to train the next guy for a little while.

Offer what you think you should be required to do after reminding your boss that you are not obliged to do anything. This might lower your bosses unreasonable expectations.

Re:You are not bound by any law

[CarlinWithers]

BTW, I'm reading a lot of people posting 2 weeks isn't neccesary. It is here in Canada, but I guess it's not in the US.

Re:You are not bound by any law

[DShard]

Does that go both ways?

Re:You are not bound by any law

[rocketfairy]

The poster is not legally required to give his boss two weeks' notice; that's a custom. The poster isn't under contract and could walk immediately, although I wouldn't recommend it.

As for the on-call business, give them a figure that would make it worth your while (plus 25% for good measure :). If the boss isn't willing to compensate you adequately, that isn't your problem, and you should be moving on to a job where you can develop your skills.

Re:You are not bound by any law

[Shiblon]

But it would be much better if you kept on his good side for the reference and ability to keep this as positive work experience on your resume.

I disagree with these statements. Nothing you can do right now will change the value of the work experience you have so far gained. As for the reference, bosses usually make very poor references anyway. This is especially true of myopic startup bosses that get peeved when their techies leave.

Do you have any friendly co-workers that would give you a good reference? Most of the time the HR of a new job will call whomever you put on your reference list, and they'll ask what the relationship is if they care. My experience is that even if it's just someone you worked closely with, they'll take that as a good reference. I've gotten away with that countless times when I didn't feel comfortable with putting down a direct manager or boss as a reference. I've even put down people under my leadership as references, and it turns out that HR likes that even better when it applies.

In short, you have a lot of options when it comes to references, and it does sound like your boss is being extremely unreasonable. Walk away softly and don't touch anything, but don't worry about the references; you can be creative about those to good effect.

Re:You are not bound by any law

[twilight30]

Well, here in the UK, 4 weeks is customary at a minimum. When I worked in Canada it was as you say. Usually these kinds of things are spelled out in the contract, here at least, but given that the poster appears to be in an 'at-will' state, he actually has a lot more leverage than he realises.

I wouldn't let the boss get away with proposing that kind of crap. If he were employing people here in Europe, he'd be eligible for a nice business-breaking hauling before an industrial tribunal for his shitty practices.

The poster should get himself an attorney sharpish. You never know what kind of madness a prick like his boss would do if frustrated.

Re:You are not bound by any law

[damiangerous]

Yes, as long as you've been there three months (and a few other exceptions you would expect).

Re:You are not bound by any law

[Lord Dreamshaper]

maybe I read the wrong stuff, but I checked it out for my own job about 4 yrs ago and found out that no notice was necessary in ontario. I'm pretty sure I found the info *on* the Ministry of Labour's website...

Re:You are not bound by any law

[Lord Dreamshaper]

hate to reply to myself, but just to be clear: in Ontario, there are rules about employers giving notice and/or severance, but no rules (that I ever found, including in the links in ths thread) for employees giving notice i.e. they don't need to give any...custom, not law

Re:You are not bound by any law

[bluGill]

Check with a lawyer if this really is important...

As I understand the law, you are not required to give 2 weeks. However if you give less than 2 weeks it is considered walking off the job, and for unemployment purposes you were fired with cause and thus get nothing.

It also means the when called about a reference the boss says you were fired for cause, where if you gave the full 2 weeks no boss in his right mind would say anything less than "He started on some date, and left in good standing on date." This can make a big difference, as it is hard to hide keep past employers off your resume, and some companies will check. I've known people who gave two weeks and left one day short, and they lost the reference.

Note that you can sometimes come to an agreement with the old company to leave after less time. I know more than one person who gave two weeks and only worked 1 because the company was as ready as they ever could be for them to leave. I know one person who gave two weeks and was escorted to the door and told his last pay check would arrive in the mail. (that is they paid him for those 2 weeks to sit at home and do nothing)

Re:You are not bound by any law

[Anonymous Coward]

IANAL

In the UK things get more interesting if you factor in the EU employment laws which came in a few years ago. My employer bascially says that you have to give 3 months notice for leaving, (although i think i know of two people who worked their entire period in the last 8 years, most do 4-6 weeks, and in fact one did 2 weeks (by agreement)), but the EU ruling basically says that they cannot hold you for more than your pay period, i.e. if you are paid every 2 weeks then 2 weeks is the maximum notice period you can be forced to work.

With this guy, from the situation he sounds to be in I would stick with four weeks as long as thats ok with your new employer. I would not agree to do any oncall for them after that as (a) it may conflict with your employment contract with your new employer and (b) it'll be a lot of hassle when they refuse to pay after you have done the work (which given what you say about your boss i would expect them to do).

Re:You are not bound by any law

[silicon not in the v]

I know one person who gave two weeks and was escorted to the door and told his last pay check would arrive in the mail. (that is they paid him for those 2 weeks to sit at home and do nothing)

That's actually pretty common, especially at big companies or in certain information sensitive areas. I've worked at a large company here for almost 5 years, and that is the way it's always done here in our engineering department because they don't want to risk any problems with disgruntled employees doing anything bad before they leave. I've seen it with a large layoff, and in several case with people getting new jobs. They were escorted out(like within the hour) as soon as it was found out that they had gotten a new job. They could come back in that evening, accompanied by security to get their stuff from their desk. That may sound harsh, but the work environment is very good; they are just being very careful about information security.

Re:You are not bound by any law

[biglig2]

Brrrrrr, reminds me of the time when my company was in a bad way and was laying off a lot of people. Since I'm an admin, lay-off = escorted out of the building by HR. Also they were doing the lay-offs bit by bit, so you had no way of knowing you were next.

Just to be safe I got all of my personal stuff out in advance. Packed it in a box one night and took it home. That was not a fun feeling.

Re:You are not bound by any law

[silicon not in the v]

My company at least did do the layoffs in the best way they could. First, they held out as long as they could without it. They put in a hiring freeze, and let job turnover reduce the work force for a while. They would then start pulling people from office positions like HR and legal department to fill vacancies on the necessary production jobs, so those people could at least keep a job and not lose benefits.

Then when they did have to do the layoff, they didn't do it bit-by-bit. They just did one big one, all in one morning, and then announced to everyone that they were done, and if you were still here, you were safe. That was a couple of years ago, and they kept that promise.

In a word...

[Spuffin]

In a word, no.

Employment-at-will means you can be fired at any time and you can quit at any time, and neither require prior notice. In my opinion your boss is not being reasonable, but what do YOU think?

Simple answer

[tdemark]

Now my boss wants 6 weeks notice plus on call service for another 3 months at subsidized rates. Is my boss being reasonable?

No, he's not. Think about it, if they wanted to get rid of you would they give you 6 weeks notice?

Give him two weeks.

Anything beyond that should be charged per hour at the following rate:

(Your yearly salary * 2) / 2080

That's probably about 25-40% more than you cost them right now.

Any hours outside of 9 - 5 are at double-time. Minimum 4 hour charge.

- Tony

Re:Simple answer

[kwerle]

Good answer, but a bit generous.

I'd go for 5*current salary for the 5th week, 6*current for the 6th week, etc. Make it all clear up front.

You said that 2 tech folks left after you joined, and that you're pretty much working alone. That means they've been getting some amount of tech work done for 1/3rd what it was costing them before those other 2 left.

Re:Simple answer

[Longstaff]

The parent is right. Set the rates for any post-FT work up front and for what *you* want. The parent's numbers are spot on (although I'd go with a 1-2 hour min).

If you offered 4 weeks and they demanded 6, re-offer 4 firmly. If they hem or haw at all, drop it to 3 weeks, then 2, etc. Yes, a good reference will help you secure a better position, but at what cost? If you burn this bridge, the worst that they will be able to do is confirm start/end dates of employment and salary - it is *illegal* to badmouth you to any prospective employer.

I've burnt a bridge or two in my life. During a takeover that I worked through once, the new owners reassigned me to the corp HQ. Within 4 weeks, I knew this new position wasn't for me even though it was a step up. The management was clueless and made crazy demands. When I gave my notice, they pulled something similar to what you're going through. My response was "2 weeks and those are in my original office working for my old boss or I walk now".

I finished in the old office under my old boss.

Re:Simple answer

[Brown3y3]

Would have modded this up if I had the points. Unfortunately I don't.

Too many people in this industry whore out their skills for far too little compensation, and the idea of a subsidized rate is just outrageous. My advice would be give him two weeks and tell him to maybe actually hire a staff so one person leaving isn't so devastating.

Don't mod this up, it's just a rant from someone tired of seeing people get burnt by employers who don't take IT/Development seriously.

Re:Simple answer

[xenocide2]

It is NOT illegal to badmouth you to prospective employers, in so much as their statements are generally true. However, it is recommended that you not say anything bad because it exposes the company to liabilities, should the court feels you've exaggerated or lied. Often individual owners or simply sour bosses will ignore this advice, and it's up to you to figure that out.

So while it's not okay for former employers to spread lies about you so you never work in the town again, don't expect the law to cover up the fast that you've never been on time to work once, or that you were stealing more product than selling it.

Re:Simple answer

[geohump]

No, this boss is not being reasonable.

Note that this boss is unable to keep any technical employees for any length of time.

What does that say about how he/she has been treating you since the other guys left?

Two weeks notice is all you need to give to be courteous. If they get abusive or coercive in any fashion (even simply laying a guilt trip on you), reduce it to one week, then to no notice.

Any other work you want to do for them beyond the two weeks- charge $85-$100 per hour and require a four hour minimum for anything done at their site, and a one hour minimum for anything done remotely.

Since this small comapny seems to be pretty, umm, well lets just say that it may be likely that you can't trust them at all, you may want to require payment in advance for any work done.

Think of it this way ...

[Anonymous Coward]

... any time commitment you make to this guy beyond your leave-date, you're taking away from the time and energy you can put forth to your new job. If I was taking on a new job, the last thing I'd want to worry about were problems with my old gig. It'll make a bad impression on your new manager if he or she catches wind of your split responsibilities. Make a clean break. Stay for whatever time you negotiate with your old manager, timing it when your new manager wants you to start ... and give yourself at least a couple days of breathing room to rest. A year from now, you won't care about your last position, and your current boss will have forgotten about you. Trust me ... it won't matter. He's trying to get what he can out of you because he's got nothing to lose for asking ... but you shouldn't tarnish an unestablished reputation with a new employer to satisfy your soon to be ex-boss.

Tell him where to go (nicely)

[grub]

Is my boss being reasonable?

No. When you were hired you probably had the two-week clause which was applicable to you quitting or them firing. If your boss wanted to can you, he wouldn't give you 6 weeks notice and offer to send you reduced amounts of money for 3 months after.

Be firm and polite, don't burn that bridge.

No

[esme]

Your boss is being completely unreasonable. I don't know where you are, and what your local laws are, but most states in the US are at will -- unless there is an explicit notice period in your job contract, you can walk away with zero notice.

My first real job out of university ended much like yours. I was the only one left in the company who could maintain their servers, and do several other things. (I also got a 20% pay cut with worthless private stock, which is taxed like income, for the other 20%). When I gave two weeks notice, the boss demanded four weeks notice, and all kinds of other things.

I told him I didn't have to give any notice and would walk that second if he didn't change his tune. Needless to say, he did.

You're the one in the position of strength -- don't let them bully you.

-Esme

Explain all

[danbond_98]

I think the best thing to do is sit down with him and explain why it is that you think 4 weeks is more than generous, and why he should expect to pay a premium not a subsidised rate if he requires services post that. While i can appreciate not wishing to burn a bridge, i think at some point you've got to say that the effort required to go past polite and accomidate his wishes is too great. There is no point in upsetting him, but he needs to understand that you are the one with all of the aces in this situation.

Re:Explain all

[aaarrrgggh]

The flip side to this is that your new employer might not take kindly to pushing back the start date too much. I'm only marginally willing to let a new hire wait 4 weeks before starting; if they want that long, there is a good chance they might be fishing.

When people come off as fishing, you worry that they won't stay at your job long, are just looking for a raise, or might be difficult to work with.

It isn't fair, since on the other side of the fence I would want 2 months notice before someone quits (there is no chance in hell you can replace a non-commodity person in less than 2 months!). Two months in my business is enough time to wind down for one person, transition projects, and hopefully get a replacement on board.

But... I ain't no programmer...

Re:Explain all

[egarland]

Better yet, explain that 2 weeks is really all you want to give because of the risk of making a bad impression at the new job. Explain you will only do more if he makes it worth your while. As stated elsewhere, get it in writing, establish that the new job takes precedent at all times. It's going to be inconvenient so don't do it unless you get paid enough to make it worth it.

Worth it should probably mean 2-3x what you are making now (i.e. 50K salary -> $50 - $75 per hour.) Less than that it's probably not worth it to you to jeopardize your new companie's opinion of you. Just walk away politely. This is not unprofessional.

Re:Explain all

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

The flip side to this is that your new employer might not take kindly to pushing back the start date too much. I'm only marginally willing to let a new hire wait 4 weeks before starting; if they want that long, there is a good chance they might be fishing.

That's true, of course, but they could also be doing right by their soon-to-be-ex employer, as in this situation. Wouldn't you want to employ the kind of person who makes an effort to leave things tidy if and when they decide to leave?

Re:Explain all

[ldspartan]

How does 50k of salary equate to $50-70 per hour? I'm assuming 40 hours per week and 50 weeks per year; that's 2000 hours per year. At 50k per year, that's $25 per hour.

Unless I've completely missed something.

Re:Explain all

[egarland]

2-3x what you are making now (i.e. 50K salary -> $50 - $75 per hour.)

Unless I've completely missed something. Like... maybe... the multiplying by 2 and 3? :)

Re:Explain all

[aaarrrgggh]

Problem is that as an employer I expect prospective hires to give at least a minimum notice (something over two weeks), but I also have a criteria for maximum notice, depending on a variety of factors including experience level, size of company they are coming from, and other secret things. When they go beyond the maximum, I start to be concerned that there is something they aren't telling me...

Kids these days...

[hoggoth]

Are you serious?

All of this stress going through your head will dissapear about 15 minutes after your final day on this job ends. You know why? Because you DON'T WORK THERE ANYMORE and don't have to do anything they ask anymore.

He can't even make you stay longer than 2 weeks, unless you signed something to the contrary when you joined.

If you are interested in keeping him as a consulting client after you leave (although your message sounds like you'd rather NOT), then negotiate with him. Tell him you want to give two weeks notice, but will meet him in the middle and give him 4 in consideration of the fact that you will be doing consulting for him.

Remember, after you walk out that door, your energy, commitment, enthusiasm, and mind will be on your NEW JOB, not this old one.

I had a terrible job once (paid well though) that had me on beeper duty all times of day and night and weekends. I could have been an obstetrician if I had wanted that. On my final day there after my two weeks was up, my boss became irate with me because I wouldn't stay late my last Friday night there. I explained I was sorry that he had to stay late, but I didn't work there anymore. I wasn't being paid to be there. And then I left at 5pm for the first time in 2 years.

Re:Kids these days...

[Brandybuck]

He can't even make you stay longer than 2 weeks...

Actually, he can't even make you stay that long. If you're comfortable enough burning your bridges and tattooing a black mark on your forehead, then give then a two minute notice if you wish. The two weeks is merely a traditional courtesy.

Yes.

[Anonymous Coward]

You're not allowed to quit ... now go back to work and stop posting on Slashdot!

Dilbert called

[Binnecard]

He wants to know where his boss went!

Depends on your jurisdiction

[CokeJunky]

Although it is possible where you live there are different laws, most places make it so that you can't even contract out of a 2 or 3 week notice period -- otherwise it becomes too easy to create nearly indentured slavery type positions. Basically the only thing you risk is as you said: burning bridges.

If you don't need his reference, and the new position you wish to take it is that much better , I suggest you give your notice and go...

I usually at least do my best to spend those last few weeks documenting everything of importance, writing down or resetting passwords, and preparing lists of all the various tasks you do. This will answer most of the questions that a replacement might have (assuming they are worth their salt.)

He's nuts

[Skalizar]

Unless you signed something to the contrary (and even then its probably not enforceable (IANAL)), you can quit with no notice at all. Anything beyond that is negotiable, for the right price. It's hard to tell from the brief description, but it sounds like he was willing to let you keep working yourself to death and pocketing the savings by not hiring and training someone else. Very short sighted on his part now that you're leaving him high and dry. I'd tell him that if he needs you after you're gone, consulting rates are $150/hour, 2 hours mimimum and only if you're available.

Sucker

[DustMagnet]

Your boss is very reasonable. I mean he knows he's had you suckered for two years and figures he may as well get what he can out of you. This guy is not your friend. You might think he is, but it's clear he's been paying well below market rate for years. Why do you think he lost those other people? Now he's trying to guilt you into giving him something for nothing.

You're in charge now. If you want to work with him, fine, but do it from the position of power you have. You don't need him. He needs you.

I understand loyalty. I'm very loyal, but it doesn't sound like your boss deserves it.

No Obligations, but go and Negotiate.

[StupidEngineer]

I believe that if you didn't sign a contract that forces you into extra support, you have no obligation to do any of it. You're not just picking up and leaving. And I think that your 4 week notice is fair enough.

But all in all, you could go ahead and negotiate with him into a future support contract if you really want. But be very clear on what you'll support, how much time you're going to spend, and when you'll be available for support calls. You may be able to get some additional $$$ from it.

Agreed length?

[DjReagan]

This is the sort of thing that gets agreed on when you take the job. What notice period is specified in your contract? Anything longer than that is not reasonable. If there isn't one specified in your contract, usually 4 weeks seems to be common/reasonable.

Be a true professional - it will pay off.

[bryanp]

Two weeks notice is for Joe Schmoe Employee. If you're a true professional and you're not leaving under negative circumstances you do more. When I left my employer of 15+ years* (I had been with them since I was 19 and in college) I gave them notice about 20 minutes after I accepted my new position. That was a bit over four weeks notice and I busted my hump to get all my project work up to date. When I left I was ahead of every one of my counterparts within the company from a "caught up" standpoint. I also offered to help them out evenings and on weekends if they really needed it as long as it didn't interfere with my new job.

As a result I am still on excellent terms with them. If something happened to my job today I know that there are people at my old employer who would find me something to do so I could pay my mortgage. And I still get to buy the company's product at the employee rate. :)

That said, don't let him screw you over too badly.

*I know your typical IT guy doesn't work at the same place 15 years. I've always been weird.

Re:Be a true professional - it will pay off.

[WebHostingGuy]

I agree and would hire the previous poster in a heartbeat. Don't be so quick to burn your bridges. Your current employer is in a bind when you leave and they are asking for quite a lot (as many have pointed out). However, you can negotiate anything you wish. As a former employment litigation attorney I can tell you that the employees who leave on good terms rather than on bad terms have better work careers.

While your current employer might not have any have room for growth they might network with other executives who run companies who have growth. Just think about being a jackass to your current employer and then applying for a position in a new company a few years down the road and finding out the hiring manager knows the boss of your old company. Think you will be hired? Try again.

You don't have to be a slave to your old employer but you don't have to be a dick either. Sit down with the old employer and say this is what I can do, what would you like me to concentrate on before I leave? Ask them if they would need help in documenting any procedures before you leave or assist in the training of the new person before you can go. But don't leave yourself on call. You might want to leave yourself open to exchanging emails for a week but indicate to your old employer that your new employer will take priority.

Be honest and direct and both you and your employer will benefit. Let them know what to expect from you and know what you expect from them. Discussions like this will put you head and shoulders above the crowd.

Re:Be a true professional - it will pay off.

[bladesjester]

For a good employer, I would not have any problem with giving an extended notice (provided that I could).

However, from what he said, he's been their sole technical person for almost two years (the other two left shortly after he joined) because his boss did not hire replacements. Requiring one person to do the work of three is not the mark of a good employer...

Depending on how Machiavellian the boss was trying to be, I would probably give him a max of 2-3 weeks notice and entertain the possibility of contracting work (at a rate which I chose. He is, after all, free to refuse and find someone else) if I had the time and/or inclination.

The more Machiavellian the boss, the less likely I would be to entertian him. That tends to be a personal thing with me, but then I had to carve my authority (which was required to do my job as a team lead) out from under my supervisor (who wanted nobody to have *any* power but him) in ways that would have made Niccolo, not to mention Sun-tzu, proud all while maintaining excellent relations with the directors and, indeed, most of the other employees in general.

No

[linuxwrangler]

Unless you have a contract that stipulates that you do and even then probably not. Often companies offer generous severance to people that they terminate to get them to complete certain assignments (assisting with completion of a merger for instance). That's a different situation. I've never heard of someone being compelled to stay, at reduced rates no less, when they are quitting.

The company cheaped out. They paid you less than your market rate and they didn't hire sufficient backup. Then they insulted you by demanding even more work for less pay. If you want to reward that behaviour then stay otherwise leave now.

Think about it. They would not bat an eye at walking you out the door without any notice or severance if it suited them. You owe them no better.

Your boss' demand that you stay really makes it sound like you made the right choice to quit. Don't cover for him/her. Leave now and enjoy a few days rest before starting the new job. Don't sign anything. Enjoy your new job. Profit.

Your boss is trying to take advantage

[legLess]

Now my boss wants 6 weeks notice plus on call service for another 3 months at subsidized rates. Is my boss being reasonable?"

As my dad used to say, "People in hell want ice water." Your boss has been taking advantage of you for two years, and he's trying to keep doing it.

Another requirement he added was the need that I be on-call if any disaster strikes with the server infrastructure.

"Requirement??" Unless you signed a contract allowing him to place arbitrary restrictions on your freedom (and, frankly, even then) he's in no place to require anything. "Ask politely while blowing money at you with a fire hose," maybe, but certainly not "require."

Should I negotiate or just ignore them? Is a burnt bridge worth it?"

If you do negotiate, remembe that when you leave it's his ass on the line, not yours. How much is his ass worth to him?

Personally I'd stick with two weeks and let him sink. Your offer of four weeks was very generous; you're not required to give him 5 minutes. His evil attempts to muscle you into doing something that is not in your best interests, or the interests of your new employer, should be repaid with a firm and polite, "I believe two weeks is customary. Best of luck finding someone new."

Charge them hard, make them bleed

[crstophr]

They can't make you do jack. You can leave tomorrow with now warning, just don't come back.

However, sounds like you have a great opportunity to make some money. Figure out how much you're willing to suffer and then make them an offer.

You'll be "on call" and will do other work for them in your off time at $75/hr. If they don't like it, shrug, smile, and say "Best of luck to ya. Oh, and it's 80/hr tomorrow. 75 was a one time only offer." Now get up and leave.

Bet they stop you on the way out or call you at home soon after. You are in a great bargaining position. Do not let them intimidate you and if they try to fuck with you at all keep raising your rates. Be polite and professional the whole time.

Best of luck to you.

--Chris

Your boss is being completely reasonable

[theantix]

After all, it's his job to make things go smoothly after your depart -- why not try to cajole or guilt you into staying as long as possible? What isn't reasonable though is for you to fall for that -- give him the two weeks you are required to, and after that it's none of his business what you do.

Get out!

[NRP128]

I've not even made it to the naive college-grad stage yet (just the naive college kid right now) and i can tell you that if you have better offers and you're not in a LEGALLY BINDING contract (your signature on a cocktail napkin is more binding than some agreements i've seen (including apartment leases)) with your current employer i'd give him the 2 weeks, 4 if you want to be nice and show a new college grad the ropes, and get the hell out.

Unless he's willing to pay competitive rates for your consulting work (which is what your on-call stuff would be) then by all means serve whatever purpose he needs and charge his ass as much as you can get away with.

If he's not willing to pay the money then tell him to find another sucker. What's he going to do? sue you? Where's he gonna win at? Fairyland State Court is out of session right now. If he DID sue you, just file a counter suit and when you win you get even MORE money AND you get your lawyer fees paid (i think...depends on the charge)

His nuts in a salad shooter

[n1ywb]

It sounds like the company will probably tank if you leave on short notice. Unless you've documented everything extremely well.

Unless there's something you haven't mentioned, your boss has no legal recourse, so you're basicly free to do whatever. But do you really want to fuck him? Thats up to you I guess.

If I were you, I would stay long enough to hire and train a replacement. I would offer to consult AT MY CONVENIENCE at the going rate for the area. I wouldn't make any promises, however.

Re:His nuts in a salad shooter

[zombie-m]

If I were you, I would stay long enough to hire and train a replacement.

I'd have to disagree here. As others have already said, you should stay two weeks. Four at most if you're feeling particularly nice. If you stay "long enough to hire and train a replacement" your soon-to-be ex-boss will probably just drag his feet on finding someone.

Re:His nuts in a salad shooter

[n1ywb]

In that case the obvious course of action is to say "fuck 'em".

Think of your future.

[the eric conspiracy]

Once you decide on your new employer they are going to be putting pressure on you to start sooneer rather than later, plus you are probably going to want to make a good first impression, put in some extra hours learning your new job, etc.

The last thing you want is some old job hanging over you while this is going on. Give your old boss 1 week notice, take a week off and start your new position refreshed.

Nothing unreasonable with asking...

[anthony_dipierro]

Now my boss wants 6 weeks notice plus on call service for another 3 months at subsidized rates. Is my boss being reasonable?

It's perfectly reasonable to want something. It's also perfectly reasonable for you to say no.

But I don't think I am bound by any law that I should provide those kinds of services (since we have no contract in place).

In most states you don't even owe any notice by law, but two weeks is kind of the unwritten rule in any case.

Should I negotiate or just ignore them? Is a burnt bridge worth it?

It sounds like you don't have another job lined up already (or you'd have told us your new job starts in X weeks). If that's the case, maybe a burnt bridge isn't worth it. In fact, if that's the case maybe you shouldn't be quitting in the first place. Ultimately it's a decision only you can make, though. What's your opportunity cost? What would you be doing in those extra weeks/months if you weren't working? How much is that worth to you? Is your employer offering more or less? If it's more then your decision is pretty easy. If it's a little less, maybe you can negotiate. Otherwise, well, you've gotta factor in the cost of the burnt bridge.

Re:Nothing unreasonable with asking...

[schon]

It's perfectly reasonable to want something.

No, it's perfectly *Mu* to want something.

My dictionary defines reasonable as "Fair, proper, just, moderate, suitable under the circumstances." By definition, you can't say that "something" is reasonable unless you know what that "something" is.

As others have pointed out, his employer is *not* being fair, proper, moderate, or suitable under the circumstances (at least the circumstances outlined by rovingeyes.)

It sounds like you don't have another job lined up already

Actually, it *does* sound like that - "So I decided to look for other jobs and immediately got multiple offers." He got multiple offers (not interviews, but offers - as in "please come work for us") and decided to take one.

Re:Nothing unreasonable with asking...

[anthony_dipierro]

Actually, it *does* sound like that - "So I decided to look for other jobs and immediately got multiple offers." He got multiple offers (not interviews, but offers - as in "please come work for us") and decided to take one.

Then I don't see why he's worried about burning bridges with his old employer, when he could very well wind up burning bridges with his new one. I find it strange that he's gotten offers but has no set date that he has to start working for these new employers. Doesn't sound like a very firm offer to me.

zerg

[Lord Omlette]

Hire a goddamned lawyer, unless you want to end up contractually obligated to work for minimum wage w/ no overtime...

Did you sign a contract?

[macdaddy357]

Unless you signed a contract obliging you to give in to your bosses outrageous demands, don't do it. People in hell want ice water, that doesn't mean they are entitled to it. Give him two weeks, and if he gives you further grief, walk.

Some people have unreasonable expectations

[xenocide2]

Its no wonder the rest of the people left ship. By failing to replace lost talent and placing more burden on you, they've shot themselves in the foot. Certainly, there is an expected amount of bad feelings that will be present at the end of any relationship like this. You've tried being reasonable about the transition, and he wants more.

Briefly, size up the situation. Your employment is as will. You've got a new gig lined up, and no obligation to fulfill the duties when you quit. Other things to consider is how badly you need the money, how much you enjoy the work versus what else you could be doing (sleep), and how your new gig would interact with it.

Your boss is haggling with you, which isn't a good sign. Given their track record, they may shove duties onto someone else real quick or expect you to essentially work two jobs by failing to hire anyone new. You need to be aboslute with a last day of employment, or its likely they'll fail to plan adaquetely. Don't worry about burning this bridge. If during some future hiring process they come across this guy and company, the differences in his story between you working 2, 4 and 6 weeks with 3 extra months of duties are going to be small if the transition winds up costing them customers or money. They've set themselves up for it, and any of the above options is accomodating enough for a capable company or boss. If you want, you can try negotiating the prices involved with his offer, but remember that it wasn't money that caused you to leave in the first place.

Been there

[The Ogre]

I left my prior employment in similar circumstances.

Two weeks is customary - 4 weeks was quite generous.

The fact that he responded with 6 weeks plus other "requirements" shows you he's not looking to make a transition easier - he's looking to milk you for as much as he can get. Oh, I've *sooo* been there.

Tell him he has two weeks, and if he has an issue with that you can leave now. Consulting past that is negotiable (check with your new employer first to avoid a conflict of interest) - and be sure you charge *more* than you were making, not less, or you'll have just traded your job for a lower-paid consulting gig.

And be ready to just walk. Seriously. I know you don't want to leave anyone in a lurch, but this isn't a situation of your own making - it was your bosses job to find and hire people within a reasonable time to replace those who had left, and just because he let it go this far is no reason for *you* to pay the consequences...

Get out

[crmartin]

What he's asking for is indentured servitude, and the reason he thinks he can get away with it is he thinks he can guilt you into it.

Give him two weeks notice. Period. Don't worry about burning bridges, as you don't want to work for this clown anyway.

Here's what you do ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Tell your boss you'll go with that aggrement if he lets you fuck his daughter. I guarantee the problem will solve itself!

Don't do it

[miyako]

6 weeks notice seems really unreasonable to me, 4 weeks is even a bit long, but if you feel comfortable with it, then there is really no problem. I would suggest giving 2 weeks notice, and offer to come in on a certain day or the next 2 weeks to help interview your replacement.
As for having them be able to call you in to fix anything that might go wrong, don't do it.
Just as an example of what can go wrong, a friend of mine got a job at an upstart company about a year and a half ago, and basically built their entire IT infrastructure. When the company started doing really well, the owner started making some really bad decisions, and my friend decided to get out before the entire company collapsed. Anyway, the owner asked her to do something similar, and she agreed.
Not too long after that, they called her and wanted to know if she could make some minor changes to their file server (IIRC it was just changing some permissions). Anyway, she went in over the next couple of weeks for minor things, and never was paid for her time, she'd basically just assumed that checks were in the mail. A few months later and she'd found another job, and had cut her losses from the old company, and hadn't heard from them again, when the owner called demanding that she come make changes to their website. She basically said that she wasn't going to because it had been about 3 months since she'd quit, and had no obligation to come in, and their current IT person could do it. Well after some pestering she agreed to come in and do it, saying that she wanted paid that day. She went in and made some changes to their site, and once again the guy tried to get out of paying her. After this she decided to just take the guy to court to get the money that he owed her, and he turned around and tried to counter-sue her, saying that she'd intentionally messed stuff up in order to get called back in and charge them more money.
Although she did end up winning, and the guy had to pay all the court costs, it ended up being a big pain.
From the way you say your boss wants you to come in and be willing to do work "on the cheap" and want's you to give such a long notice, it may be possible he too is expecting to basically not higher someone else and outsource all the work to you for free.

be careful about your future job reference

[Anonymous Coward]

I had a similar problem; it was my first sysadmin gig, too. They were a small outfit who didn't know what sysadmin work is really worth, so I bailed after getting a much better offer. After I left, they gave me shitty references, despite having kept their systems up for a year on my own and putting up with unreasonable demands.
I got the heads-up from a prospective employer who had called them for a reference.
Make sure you have a good reference from *someone* in the company if you think you'll need it.

Be nice but stand up for yourself

[xoboots]

Your boss is being unreasonable. 4 weeks is plenty generous on your part. Explain to him that he had 2 1/2 years to remedy the situation and that 2 more weeks isn't going to make a difference. Explain to him that if he wants support, it will have to be on your terms and at your rates and on the condition that it does not interefere with new contracts/jobs. Be professional about it, but partly that means presenting yourself as your own entity and not his personal minion. He needn't take you up on your proposal, but that is his choice.

He has never "owned you" and I am assuming that over the time you were employed there that you acted responsibility and did what was asked (ie. you earned your paychecks). He has no right to demand more from you, particularly once you are no longer an employee.

It is difficult when you are the go-to-guy in a small outfit where you likely have a very personal relationship with your boss. Your leaving may very well jeopordize his business so he can take it personally, but then again, his business is his responsibility, not yours. Don't be surprised if you are suddenly offered down-the-road equity or other future incentives. You may decide that such offers are in your benefit, but beware and think carefully. They can also be more of the string-you-along type of offers and if you are already in a business relationship where you have the weak hand then it is very difficult to change that.

Consider what would happen if the company suddenly went bust -- likely you would get shown the door, any outstanding owed wages and accumulated vacation pay and that's it.

I know its tough because it involves a personal relationship but there comes a time when you have to think of yourself first. Your boss is obviously doing that on his part, you must do it on yours.

Good luck!

you are being suckered

[Anonymous Coward]

I had a boss try that. I told him 2 weeks at regular rate, then 2 more weeks at triple time. On call for 6 months at $200/hr.
He decided on 2 weeks.

See this as an opportunity

[drix]

I am surprised at the number of people offering up the predictable "Dude, fuckim'" response. Maybe it's because I'm an economist and not a computer scientist, but I see considerable opportunity for you to gain from this situation without really burning any bridges. The fact that your boss is so demanding suggests your skills and business-specific knowledge are of considerable value to the company--well in excess of what you are being paid, since if not he would simply hire someone else at the going rate. You are in a very strong position to dictate terms. Counteroffer his "subsidized rates" nonsense with a quote for 3-4 times what you make on an hourly, pro-rata basis. Clearly, they already know you've got them by the balls, and my hunch is it would still make good economic sense to pony up. If he balks, you are released from further obligation.

In my estimation, this approach will lead to less recrimination than if you simply left them hanging. Their response clearly illustrates that you are undercompensated, and coming in with a high demand is really no more than a request that you be valued fairly. They know this, and will blame themselves, not you, if things fall through.

Re:See this as an opportunity

[willfe]

Heh. This is, of course, a variation on the "dude, fuckim" response :)

I agree with your assessment, though; instead of just saying "up yours, fool!" and walking, firmly grab hold of the "hourly rate" dial and crank it ever-upwards until just before the boss' purse strings snap closed.

requires 6 weeks and then on Call after that?

[LWATCDR]

Unless you are getting a TON of money for it no way. If he wants to keep you there then he should shower you with perks and cash. I would say you are getter off leaving. Two weeks is what I consider the minimum. Four weeks is you being very nice.

Oh man...

[Anonymous Coward]

...the four weeks you offered were generous enough. Tell them thanks, but no thanks. I'll be leaving at the end of those four weeks. My new employer needs me, and if the situation were reversed, he'd understand completely.

at my last job

[everyplace]

I worked at a company that had offices in multiple locations in the USA. I interviewed at an office other than my own, and got a job there. I applied for a transfer at my main office, and gave them 5! weeks notice. They declined my transfer, citing too great of a need for me at my current office.

I quit, moved on, and haven't looked back. The best decision I made in 2004, hands down.

Get the 6 weeks and pay in writing!

[failedlogic]

You mentionned getting other job offers. Get this "demand" of your boss in writing (the 6 weeks + on call stuff). I assume that this was never part of any contract you signed with the company.

The reason: when you go for the other job, they'll most likely ask for references. There is nothing worse than getting a bad reference, especially from your last employer. If he decides to say you left with little or no notice, you can show the new company that you gave two weeks which was plently, and his "real" demands were completely unreasonable.

Re:Get the 6 weeks and pay in writing!

[Lord Dreamshaper]

mod parent I up. In a similar situation, I opted to burn bridges, because I would not have trusted my boss' references anyway. In my case, his reputation preceeded him and it was a "plus" in some interviews that I had tolerated him as long as I did. Would still do it again, but it would have been even better if I'd had documentation of his unreasonableness.

Re:Get the 6 weeks and pay in writing!

[Richard Frost]

Realistically, though, if a company turns you down for employment, they're never going to tell you why they turned you down. And they certainly won't give you a chance to make your case. They'll just ignore all e-mails and phone calls.

Re:Get the 6 weeks and pay in writing!

[Don'tTreadOnMe]

For references:

Get a buddy at another employer to call your current boss and ask for a reference. That way you'll know what kind of references the guy is giving.

Re:Get the 6 weeks and pay in writing!

[failedlogic]

I agree with this as well. I went to work for a company and performed really well. The boss blew up on me one day, for several reasons (all of which I still believe clearly faulted *him*).

I left and looked for work afterwards (a mistake, I admit). I never said the boss was a jerk or hated working for him in the interviews.

Turns out the old boss kept complaining I was always really late. I didn't find out until I decided to have a friend call him up for a reference after a few weeks. I had several really good jobs lost because of him.

This is why I think its prudent to think one step ahead and get everything in writing. Especially, when you blame the old boss.

One more thing

[Anonymous Coward]

Imagine your company decided to fire you, and you went to your boss demanding an additional three months of employment, plus a further period of weeks where you could work whenever you felt like it, and for which they would pay you twice what you currently make.

What do you his answer would be? I know mine's.

Your answer to the above question should fully inform your decision. End of discussion.

This is not uncommon... really

[Subgenius]

The previous poster mentioning haggling is correct. He says 'jump' and you say 'not that high, and it will cost this much.' At my company (another long-term IT guy, 14 years @ same place) we always ask folks for more time, but we understand that sometimes we will get it, and sometimes we wont't (we even use some extra perks , if it will help), but we don't do anything nasty if they say no. We also try and limit the consulting fees with the understanding that the employee is in the catbird seat.

Some folks know the game, and some don't.

This might sound cold-hearted, but it is just the way things go.

Having said that.... if this person even STARTS to imply that you agreeing to the mandatory notice and lower-priced consulting fee is a requirement for your final check, you need to be VERY careful. Contacting a friend who may happen to be a labor lawyer (or just read your own state codes) would be a smart move. In California, you should expect your final check within 96 hours of your last work hour (if I recall correctly..)

Re:This is not uncommon... really

[plague3106]

Companys CANNOT withhold your final paycheck. You've already done the work for them. Even if you burn up two processors, they have to sue you to recover damages. They CANNOT take it from your paycheck.

Turnabout is fair play

[redelm]

How much notice would they give you if they laid you off? That's a good maximum for notice.

Unfortuantely, your boss is being egregiously stupid in insisting on later obligations, and you'd get get out of there and avoid all future work for him. Minimize contact. Unreasonable people seldom improve.

No, he's not

[Anonymous Coward]

Just because its your "job" to do something; doesn't make any action taken under that guise "reasonable".

That's so basic I am surprised even slashdot moderators failed to recognize it and modded you up.

You Have No Obligations

[BlueFashoo]

Since you stated that you are not under a contract, you have no obligations. You can legally walk out today if you want. You won't get a good referral if you do that, but you allready have another job lined up. Common courtesy is to give two weeks. Presumably this new job pays better, so the sooner you get to that job, the more money you will make.

You are not required to sign anything. You are not required to be on call. You are not required to give him 6 weeks notice. You are not required to give two weeks notice. You are not required to do anything for your current employer.

Remember, when you are employed, you are selling your labor and your life. Your life is slipping away day by day. Why spend your time working at a high stress job if you don't have to?

I recommend giving your current employer two weeks notice, and then taking a couple of weeks for yourself before starting your new job. Spend that time spending time with your family, hanging out with friends, watching clouds go by, catching up on your reading, basically living life. Many employers don't let new employees take vacation for quite a while after they've been hired, so this may be your only opportunity to get some good quality liesure time. Remember, no says on their death bed that they wish they had spent more time at the office. People always regret not spending more time with their loved ones or not spending more time in some liesurely pursuit.

Bah

[Anonymous Coward]

Ask yourself, what can he do if you don't agree?

Answer: Not much.

You are only required to give 2 weeks notice, by law, so unless your contract says something else, you can negotiate terms with him. I suggest: either your boss pays you twice your hourly wage, with a 2 hour minimum, for anything he calls you about; if that is not acceptable, tell him to talk to his lawyer. He doesn't own you; slavery is long dead.

Re:Bah

[plague3106]

Most states don't require any notice at all. "any time, for any reason." Its called at will employment.

Unreasonable

[ripbruger]

If that company couldn't fill the other vacancies within an 2 year timeframe, that's really not your fault. I'd say your boss is being unreasonable here, especially for asking for another 3 months of being on call. If everything is well documented enough, you shouldn't need this. I personally would just walk away, you've gotten 6 other offers, go with them. This job would just be added grief.

Absolutely Unresonable

[jtshaw]

That is rediculous. Two weeks is the professional standard. If you have another opportunity you want to take then give your two weeks notice and take it. If they want to hire you back for part time support then they damn well better do it on your terms. It isn't your fault they put to much of a burden on you and are up a creek without a paddle if you leave.

Your boss is burning the Bridge

[redelm]

I can understand you wanting to ensure a professional transition and part amicably. But it takes two to Tango. Your boss doesn't seem very reasonable (subsidized callback rates?) and he's torching the bridge. Sometimes you can negotiate. Sometimes not. You'd know him better than any of us.

He's not the position to make demands

[Gary Destruction]

You're all he's got. And you could tell him that he's not in the best position to make such a demand. Without you, he'd be up the creek without a paddle. Maybe he needs to miss your presence for a while. That should make him appreciate you. Everything you've been doing has been taken for granted when you consider your situation.
To go that long without finding someone to help you is fool-hearty. Honestly, I don't see how your boss couldn't have seen this coming, unless he truly believed that you would stay. Unfortunately, good workers get taken advantage of.

Your boss has a few options.

[Shag]

1. He can do whatever he's been doing, which obviously is going to cost him his only developer, which might very well mean the company goes under.

2. He can let you go, but make an arrangement with you (and this does not mean him demanding things - as #1 above illustrates, he is in no position to negotiate) for you to provide some sort of continuing support on a consulting/contract basis.

3. He can do a total about face and actually do what he should have done in the first place - maintain appropriate staffing levels instead of "saving heaps of money" by making one person do everything. I don't know whether he can afford this or not.

If I were in your boss's shoes, and could afford it, I'd probably be looking at doing #3 and asking you to manage it (at, of course, a higher salary), since I (as him) obviously couldn't find my ass in a dark closet, business-wise, and you obviously can.

What does your contract say?

[Spudley]

Firstly, what does your employment contract say?

In truth, you should stick to whatever your contract says, unless you have good reason not to.

The consensus here seems to say two weeks is normal, but every job I've ever seen has had a four week termination period in the contract. Perhaps the norms are different here, but in any case, I would say that four weeks is reasonable, especially given that you have a key role.

Much more than four weeks is much less reasonable, because it can affect your chances of being accepted for your next job - employers want to hire you as soon as possible, and if they have to wait six weeks for you, they might pick someone else.

The idea of being 'on call' for several months after that is even more tricky. Nobody minds taking the occasional call from their former colleagues if they don't understand your code, but a formal deal for it is different. Bear in mind that any work you do for them in this period will be on the time of your new employer, who might not appreciate it. For you to agree to it, you'll probably also need your new employer to agree, and they'll quite likely want to take a cut if it eats into your time that should be spent working for them.

Document everything!

[bobthemuse]

Whatever you do, sign a contract for your last X weeks and get a documented pay rate for any work you do after that, and make sure that it notes that taking the work is at your discretion.

You've already implied that your boss is unreasonable/inconsiderate. Would you put it past them to fire you as soon as they find your replacement? (with 4-weeks notice, not terribly unlikely). Would you put it past them to pay you at a lower rate for on-call work, assuming you accept it? Have it documented, have them sign something for each call-out that says "I called so-and-so on m/d/y and understand that I will be charged for a minimum call-out time of Y hours at $Z/hour.

Document everything. They do, even if you don't know it, it's the only way to level the playing field.

Legally....

[chewedtoothpick]

He cannot require more than 2 weeks notice if you are in California... It is illegal. That is of course unless otherwise stated in some employment contract (written of course.) I have had to deal with this many times, and every time someone has tried to pull that on me, I gave them ONLY the two week notice instead of any of the extra notice / help I had originally offered...

Re:Legally....

[GROOFY]

IANAL, but I believe he can't require any notice at all. Perhaps it's different in the crazy state, but for the U.S. at large...

Did your old bosses tell you they could require 2 weeks? They may have lied.

Re:Legally....

[D.A. Zollinger]

He cannot require more than 2 weeks notice...

Unless you are under contract, you don't even have to give them 2 weeks. This is where the "At Will" enployment cuts both ways. They can fire you for any reason whatsoever ("He has blue eyes! I never noticed before, but he has blue eyes! I don't like blue eyes. I terminated him."), and you can stop going to work tomorrow without fear of litigation from the company. Heck, I've even seen some people give their two week notice, and then use up two weeks of paid vacation.

Of course, stunts like that leave a bad taste in employeers mouths, and in such a specialized industry, you may find yourself at another company in another relationship with your former boss or employees. Leaving them in a lynch at other companies can come back to bite you in the ass.

If I were you, I would call an attourney first thing tomorrow morning. I would explain my situation, and tell them that I would like to draft a contract to define my relationship with this company beyond the two week period. For starters, after the two week period, I would be available for emergency service, provided I am not already predisposed with my current employeer, and tasks demanded of me by my new employeer. That I am available for contract rates of $200 per hour, with a minimum of four hours for a service call.

Many have said it before, I will just restate it: This situation should have been resolved a LONG time ago. It is not of your concern how your current employeer handles his business after you leave. Use the contract as a bargaining chip, as your response to his offer of 6 weeks and 3 months of subsidized rates. Somewhere between his desire, and your contract lies a happy medium for both of you. Perhaps a scare like losing you may be enough to guarantee further employement at much more favorable compensation.

Re:Legally....

[plague3106]

Even if you are under contract, state law trumpts the contract. So it doesn't matter what you contract says if you're in an at will state.

Re:Legally....

[plague3106]

Of course, stunts like that leave a bad taste in employeers mouths, and in such a specialized industry

I find this ironic, since I don't know of any employers that wouldn't cut someone loose with no notice at all. They expect it from you if you leave, but if they want you out, its 'sorry, too bad.'

I think before employers start crying foul for employees leaving without notice, they should re-examine how they treat those same employees when they need to let them go.

And then...

[furry_marmot]

First - what everybody else has said.

Second - If your boss fights you, threatens you, or tries to intimidate you, you have the option to just leave.

The thing a lot of bosses will try with younger employees is pulling the parent card. "You'll be in big trouble if you don't do what I say." Like what kind of trouble? Can he make the other company fire you? Make you somehow come back in to work for him? I think not. Since you've already got a new job lined up, there's not a damned thing under the sun he can do to you, and it's in his best interests that you never figure this out. He'd love it if he could cut your pay and tell you that you don't have permission to leave -- and have you believe it like you're tempted to at the moment.

You're a big boy now. It may take a while to realize it, but you get to make choices.

4 weeks makes you look good.

[kponto]

Your boss sounds like an ass. Like many people have said, you're not "required" to do jack, and two weeks is a courtesy. As far as being "on-call" when you don't work there, that's called being an Outside Consultant, which usually requires a sizable retainer to cover your enormous hourly rates. Though in this scenario, I'd probably do everything in my power to avoid contact with this company in the future; some accounts just aren't worth the headache.

However, I would definitely stick with the four weeks, since that's what you offered to begin with. Plus, as a added benefit, if you make it known at your new job that you're giving your old job four weeks instead of two, it'll display you in a very good light to your new employers.

Re:4 weeks makes you look good.

[timjones]

I agree. I once left a very small software development shop where I had run things for about 5 years, and I voluntarily offered 6 weeks notice (made the new job wait, which they did), and all the after-hours help I could do without endangering my new gig.

I must say, we parted on very cordial terms, and he eagerly contracted to me a couple years later when I left the new gig, and become self-employed.

Of course, this particular boss had never driven me into the ground with too much work, or otherwise abused me. The reason I left was for more technically challenging work - the year was 1995 and the rest of the world was getting into Objects, C++ and Java, and we were still doing vt100-style 80x24 terminal apps in K&R C.

It does sound do me like your boss didn't have a good relationship, so in your case, I wouldn't lift too many fingers to help out.

training

[TheSHAD0W]

You ought to tell your boss that he needs to hire one or more developers ASAP so you can get them properly acquainted with the codebase. Apart from that, 4 weeks notice is more than generous, and you should demand a high rate for any kind of further support; after all, it could potentially damage your ability to work for your new employer.

Re:training

[TheSHAD0W]

I should also mention that, if he were that concerned about uptime, he should've hired an assistant for you a long time ago. What would've happened to his business if you'd gotten ill or were otherwise indisposed? You're going to need to be firm with him because I think he's taking advantage of you.

Well, he's not the only one...

[oldosadmin]

He's not the only person to unfairly get a bad reference because you just left a place.

It's happened to me once.

Of course, I also had my *current* boss (at the time) give a ridiculously good reference, even though she knew it meant losing me.

Re:Well, he's not the only one...

[DustMagnet]

He's not the only person to unfairly get a bad reference because you just left a place. It's happened to me once.

I'm sure it happens. I was just surprised it happened multiple times to one person.

Re:Well, he's not the only one...

[Kosgrove]

Whoever gave you the bad reference (assuming the reference was untrue) is an idiot. Giving a bad reference for someone on false grounds is a lawsuit waiting to happen.

I worked for a large Pharamaceutical company as a co-op, and because they were so afraid of lawsuits (and rightfully so), all references were handled through HR, NOT the former manager of the person seeking the reference. HR would only disclose things the manager wrote in official reviews, and I think that was a very smart way of handling it.

That way, there's no rivisionist history one way or another.

Re:Well, he's not the only one...

[R2.0]

Heh... My former employer's policy was to give NO references - only confirmation of employment. If you don't say anything, you can't say anything wrong.

Re:Well, he's not the only one...

[Grishnakh]

I think a lot of (or even most) big companies in the US are like this now. They've learned from their mistakes. Small companies, however, haven't. In my work at both big and small companies, I've found that big companies are much more boring to work at, but they're far more consistent and predictable. You just don't find that much insanely stupid stuff at them. Small companies, on the other hand, are entirely unpredictable: some may have really smart people, and do really well, but there's tons of them with insanely stupid people running them. This is usually where we hear most of the horror stories from, I think.

One reason the boss shouldn't want you to stay

[OldAndSlow]

I have never seen anybody who was worth a damn a week after giving notice. As the psychological separation takes place, it gets harder and harder (even for folks with the best of intentions) to get much done.

What your boss should be having you do is document the crap out of everything, and then sweet talking you into accepting calls from whoever replaces you.

Even then, memory fades. You get into your new job and the details of the old job get harder to recall.

You owe your new boss your full intellectual bandwidth, especially in the learning stages, when you are not contributing as much as you will once you know the job.

All depends

[photon317]

At least here in Texas, we're an "at will" state, which means that generally employment is "at will" by both parties. You can quit or they can fire you, with no good reason, at any time. Two weeks notice on the employee's part is considered good manners and taste, much like severance or a few weeks pay in some form are usually good manners if you let someone go suddenly and they didn't do something bad to deserve it.

But it's all a matter of manners, not requirements. If they've screwed you over in general over the course of your time with them, and your opinion of them is low, I wouldn't feel obligated to do any more than the standard two weeks at all. If they're real abusive assholes, I'd just walk out with zero notice (done that once before in my career, it didn't affect anything down the road with other employers).

On the other hand if they've really been good to you, but the company just sucks and doesn't have the money to keep you, but you like the guys - then considering your crucial position there, I would give them a month's notice at least.

Adding my voice to the chorus

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

Your current employer is trying to walk all over you.
Do not allow them to.

Here's what is reasonable for a professional:
1) Two weeks notice

That's it. NOTHING more.

If you want to do more for them, then treat it like a brand new business arrangement, everything is on the table and you should not hesitate to take as much of it as you can.

That means, that under no circumstances, would a professional EVER give away their time for LESS than they were being compensated for before. To do so is to open yourself up to all kinds of continuing employment abuse. Do not, in any way, allow any sort of feelings of guilt or the like manipulate you into discounting your worth. Apparently they NEED you and in business that translates into paying MORE, not less.

Go to the RealRates forum for sage advice from experienced contractors on how to handle this former employer's needs without letting him take advantage of you.

PS, that your former boss would demand these things of you suggests that you've been mistreated all along and probably didn't realize it (I bet you were vastly underpaid and probably more than a little overworked). A stand-up guy would try to negotiate fairly, but he is clearly NOT doing that, instead is trying to manipulate you. That means the gloves are off and HE took them off, do not feel bad about playing hardball yourself, he started it after all.

It's his own fault, you know.

[An Onerous Coward]

Your employer should have been preparing for this possibility a long time ago. He should have known how thoroughly your departure could screw up his business, and made sure that somebody else knew how to do everything you've been doing.

Your obligations here are minimal. Legally, you could be a complete twerp about it, walk off, and not return his calls. It sounds like you're being quite fair, and are fulfilling any ethical responsibilities you may have.

The flip side is, this is the guy's company. Your departure may lead to a string of disasters that could kill it off entirely. The big question is, is there enough bad blood between you and the company that you wouldn't mind letting your boss suffer for his mistakes? If so, I don't see any reason to let your relationship continue beyond the four weeks you outlined earlier. Maybe less, if your boss's counter-offer was galling enough.

But if you like and respect your former employer, do them a favor and be willing to negotiate some price at which you'll come back in and save their butts from certain doom. "Subsidized" is unreasonable. You have a right to not be taken advantage of, and a responsibility to make it clear that you won't be around forever. I would start with double your current hourly rate after your four weeks is up, and increment every week.

By the end of the fifth week, charge three times your old rate, and four times by the end of the sixth week. As your replacement (replacements, if your boss has learned anything from this experience) adapts to his new environment, their need for you will dwindle even as your rates increase. At some point, it's just not worth it for them to call you anymore.

For your remaining time, start documenting procedures, settings, and for godssake comment that rats nest of code! Good luck in your new job.

Quick question (and suggestion):

[Txiasaeia]

Does your boss read slashdot? Was this an underhanded way of getting the message across ;)

Anyway. I'd suggest taking the average compensation of all the posts mentioned thus far, dropping it by a bit, and then emailing your boss the URL for this story. He'll see that you're being more than reasonable (and that he's an ass), and you'll likely get what you want. *OR*, he'll fire you on the spot ;)

they are taking advantage

[Yonder Way]

I've been in the IT business full time for 11 years. I've worked for some really rotten startups and for some nice ones, too. It sounds like they've taken you for granted all this time and never really prepared for the fact that you would leave at some point.

You're not required in most states to give any notice at all. If you're in an at-will state, you could say "I quit" and walk out the door now. But that's not professional, nor courteous, and the damage this would do to your professional reputation would be devastating. Here I am, 11 years in, and in the last month my small department has hired one guy from a job I worked at 8 years ago and another from a job I worked at 10 years ago. It's a small world. Don't burn bridges.

But their "demands" on you are entirely unreasonable, not to mention they are in no position to make demands. Your two week notice is a courtesy, not an obligation. You owe them nothing more.

If you choose to do some side work for them, make absolutely sure it doesn't put your new employer out any. And charge a premium consulting rate. $100/hr would not be unreasonable at all, and it will be an incentive for them to get someone else hired quickly. Just make sure you get paid! I've been in this position and required prepayment for blocks of hours, and this worked out well for me even though the employer bitched and moaned and cried bloody murder about it before conceding to my conditions. Otherwise there is a good chance they'll milk you for all the time they can and make you fight them in court for the money.

Re:they are taking advantage

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been in this position and required prepayment for blocks of hours

Whatever you decide, the parent has probably made the most important suggestion. Making an agreement with someone is one thing, but getting paid is another matter entirely, esp. with someone who thinks he owns you (as your boss clearly does) and who might try to punish you for your defection by simply never getting around to paying you. Small businesses are especially bad for this.

Run...don't walk...away

[sameyeam]

You owe the guy jack shit. Work the two weeks then walk.

I've been in a very similar position, back in the days of the dot-com crash - I worked as a web-designer for minimum wage (about £4 an hour ~ $7.50), which is clearly fucking dismal to start with. Anyway, at the time I was pretty depressed because of this and other things...it was a crappy place to work and like you people left who were never replaced, so more work/pressure was piled on. Luckily (!) I crashed my car and had to have time off sick (no sick pay either BTW). Spending time away from the place made me realise just how much more ill it was making me. Don't let them continue to treat you like this - you have something better lined up, walk away and don't look back. Honestly, the guy is taking the piss. Forget about "future contacts" with him - because by the sounds of it - he won't be in business much longer.

Take The Money

[Myopic]

All the other comments seem to concentrate on the fact that this employee does not owe his employer the six weeks plus on-call, and they are right; but no one seems to be concentrating on what I see as the major point: the boss is desperate for this employee! My advice is to be really nice to the employer and leverage his needs to the employee's advantage:

"Oh, absolutely, boss, I totally see where you are coming from. Unfortunately my new job starts in two weeks but I can be on call for the next six months. My contract price is $115 and hour with a three hour minimum. Here's my cell number."

Don't forget to turn off the cell phone when you don't want to work for him.

Nooooooo!

[sethadam1]

Everyone here has given you what I believe is bad advice. Let me tell you a few things I know to be good advice.

1) Never burn your bridges. You never know who you'll cross paths with again.
2) What goes around, comes around.
3) Never confuse your coworkers for your friends.

What does that mean? If you have the flexibility and they haven't treated you like shit - charge them your salary divided by 2080 (per hour) and stay. You're out the door. They can't say anything bad about you, and if one day, one of these people shows up in another interview or a company you're interviewing for, guess what they will remember about you? Yep, how you DIDN'T screw them.

Your first loyalty

[dheltzel]

is to you new employer. Have a frank discussion with your new boss about what they think if the right thing. They will likely be able to see this from your old employer's perspective and come up with a compromise that works for them and gives as much as possible to help your old company.

There may be conflicts of interest here, in which case you owe the interest to your new boss, but assuming not, giving them more control and being willing to just do whatever they think works best makes you look very good and lets them know where your loyalty lies.

I was once in a (sort of) similar situation. With the full knowledge of my new boss, I was on formal retainer with the old company for 3 months (minimum, with possibility to renew if all agreed). The retainer was $500 / month, covering up to 4 hours of time, excess billable at the same rate. They used 4 hours one month and I got $1500 extra salary for those 4 hours. It obviously didn't hurt my performance at my new company, and it really saved the day for my old company when they had a major database outage and called me to fix it for them, so everyone won, even my new boss because he understood then the level of commitment I felt to an employer, and that I would always do the honorable thing to help out.

Re:Your first loyalty

[silicon not in the v]

It obviously didn't hurt my performance at my new company, and it really saved the day for my old company when they had a major database outage and called me to fix it for them, so everyone won, even my new boss because he understood then the level of commitment I felt to an employer, and that I would always do the honorable thing to help out.

This is something very good that I haven't seen mentioned in this thread much. Most people's advice is about dealing with the old company and not getting walked on by his unreasonable demands. That's valid, but remember that this is an opportunity to get some good respect from your new employer, depending on how you handle this.

My little story on this is about when I was going through the interview process for my first job out of college(current one). I had first gotten a call from [Company A]. I did a phone interview, and they wanted me to fly out for an in person interview with some of their engineers. They scheduled the trip for about two weeks later. A few days later, I got a call from [Company B], who also did a phone interview with me and wanted to fly me out for an interview. They scheduled the trip for basically right after the Company A trip. I thought about it and called them back the next day and asked if I could pay the difference in airfare to get out there this coming week and explained the reasons why. I liked the job at Company B better and I liked the location(much lower cost of living than silicon valley and better to live in). Since I would prefer their job if they made me an offer, I didn't feel right wasting a few thousand dollars of Company A's money on basically a free vacation(flight, hotel, rental car), if I was going to go to B right after and take their job offer. Company B(my current employer) really appreciated that I would respect not wasting someone's costs and said they would go ahead and take care of the arrangements to get me out there to interview that week. They offered me to job that afternoon of the interview, so I called up Company A to cancel the trip, and the rest is history.

Re:Your first loyalty

[dheltzel]

I hear so much about how companies have no loyalty to their employees (present or future) and how quick they are to screw people to make or keep a buck. There may be companies like that, but there are also a lot of stories about people who respected their employer and the favor was returned. I have the good fortune to be working in a hot industry (pharmeceuticals) for a great boss. Our IT dept turnover is 0 because no one would really want to leave. Oh, and we all do great work out of respect for the Director. This a a great example of a win-win situation.

It's probably good that your "company A" never had much chance to interview you and make an offer. They probably would have been severely bummed to have you lost you after all that.

I had a similar situation

[tpv]

I had been working part time in a small software development company for a couple of years.

Over that time most of the other employees had gone from working on our main product to be contracted out to other firms. In the end I was the only one left working on our software, and we had a beta of the next version finished.

It was about January and I wanted to work out what I was doing for the next year. My boss told me that it would be pretty much the same as last year, which meant not enough money to live on properly (it was part time work). So I went looking for a full time job.

My boss knew I was looking, and after I'd had a couple of interviews, he asked me to stick around for 2 months to finish up what I'd been working on, and that he'd match whatever my I'd be getting elsewhere.

In other words, now that it was going to be a problem for him, there was money to spend, but before that, when I needed the money, it wasn't there.

In the end I gave him 1 month (I was only obligated to give 2 weeks), mostly because I felt that created a better impression for my new employer - that I was willing to do "the right thing" by my employer, but within reason. (I also enjoyed my job and wanted to see the piece I was working on get finished)

I never saw the extra money.

Find the Middle Ground

[willfe]

Several others have chimed in here with opinions and experience, but I want to add mine to the pile too.

Several years ago, I was laid off amidst all the fun dot-com crash excitement. I was the office's senior systems administrator. Not five days after I was handed a cardboard box and a pink slip did one of my former coworkers call to ask me for some kind of administration/management advice.

Now, I was given no notice that my job was ending. I was given a hefty severance that the company welched on (they filed for bankruptcy protection after making only half the payments they should have). Here they were, though, expecting me to jump right back up and do my job for them just a little longer without pay.

I gave them my consulting rate ($50 an hour; given what they were paying me before the layoff, that was actually about even) and said the minute I get a check in hand for the work, I'd be right down. I never heard back.

More recently, a former employer popped up who wanted me to work to fix a project I'd worked on for her a year ago (not a major project, maybe a two hour scripting job) that mysteriously broke after a server move. She and I have not exactly have the most pleasant relationship in the past year, but she pulled essentialy the same thing: offered me part-time work at an ungodly low rate after I'd left the company in June for assorted reasons. Then in January comes this suggestion that I can work for her again at a pretty low rate. She was pretty upset when I asked for a higher rate of pay, but I imagine the final "no" decision from me was unexpected.

I just don't see the need to work for peanuts anymore.

In your case, I'd say two week's notice is plenty. If you've already said you'd give four weeks, stick with that. If he wants more, do as others here have suggested -- negotiate for a higher hourly rate than you were making as a regular, and go freelance with the company.

You don't want to come off as selfish and distrusting (though you should be both those things in this case) -- instead, just set some groundrules and limits.

Your basic hourly rate should be 20% higher than what you were making as a regular employee, just to compensate for lack of benefits and vacation days, etc. Your boss should have no trouble with that justification.

Your maximum hours per week should be capped at something like 10 hours or so; you don't want to be trapped having to work two full time jobs. Those ten hours should be scheduled at your convenience; it's no problem to let your boss call you to ask you to come in with little notice to help, but you should not be penalized for saying "no," apart from perhaps having the contracting gig go away. You should be scheduling your time with them, not the other way 'round.

On-call duty? That should cost them a pretty penny. Seriously. You should be paid a retainer simply for sacrificing your personal time, and there should still be some restrictions. For one thing, during your new job's working hours, you shouldn't be expected to drop what you're doing to help. They can page or contact you (if your new employer permits; you and the new boss should be the only people able to stipulate when contact can be made) when you're working the other job, but it's your call about when to help, when to show up, when to give up a lunch break, or when to head over before or after work at the new job.

Even with those restrictions, you should charge the old company at least half your current salary just to be on call. This does not include the billable hours you spend taking their call, driving to their office and back, and performing the desired work.

That's how it works. Lay it out in terms like this for the old boss, and if he agrees, put it in writing and get signatures on paper. Don't do a thing until that happens. Then, bill weekly, and if they slip more than 30 days past-due, stop wor

My Advice

[Anonymous Coward]

You should try to leave on good terms whenever possible. Here are some things you can try:

• Talk with your boss and explain that the company that is hiring you will not wait for six weeks, and you are not willing to pass up the offer.
• Explain that you can't be on call during normal business hours because you'll have another job. Offer to help on emergencies at night or on weekends as time permits, but demand at least double your normal salary for this (consultant's rates).
• Encourage him to hire one or two people NOW to replace you so you can start training them. Start writing documents about what you do and how you do it so they can refer to these documents after you're gone.
• Whatever you do, don't let your old boss talk you into staying. He'll hold a grudge against you, and convince himself that you held him hostage. He'll fire you the first chance he gets, once he has other people in place to do your job.

2 weeks notice is plenty

[j0nb0y]

As others have pointed out, your employer would not give you 6 weeks notice if they wanted to fire you, so why should you do the same for them? 2 weeks is plenty. In this situation, giving 4 weeks notice was very profesional and generous, as they do not want to be without a tech guy. More than that is unnecessary. They knew the risk of only having 1 tech guy, and now it's going to bite them in the ass.

In general, it's not a good idea to give lots of notice. I knew a guy who gave 6 month's notice, and his company fired him a week later. Don't give notice until you're ready to leave. That's at will employment. Employers pushed for "at will employment" laws so they could fire people at will. They have to live with the other side of it too.

He's nuts....

[CharlieG]

Simple - He gets 3-4 weeks, and you are willing to "consult" - pick a nice consultant rate - say, $100/hr, and say a 2-3 hr minimum. If he wants 'On call' consulting (aka 24x7 support) it's from the time the phone RINGS to the time you get home

Somewhat reasonable

[dtfinch]

Compared to other jobs, developers are very hard to replace, especially the last developer. Your boss is in a situation where in the long run, it won't be worth it to pay what's needed to keep you, but in the short run, they won't be able to adequately replace you in the time you've given them.

He should be willing to pay something extra if he wants more than two weeks. That's only fair. It's far more damaging to them for you to leave too quickly than for them to have to pay extra, but it's also damaging to you to be expected to stay longer with a new job already lined up. Call it severance pay, your reward for not destroying them on your way out.

I'm in a similar situation. I'm an only developer, also acting as tech support guy and administrator of absolutely everything, and I can't stay for what I'm getting. I've been getting better offers since December. I wanted to complete the projects I had already started, so I gave them a rough notice based on the time estimated to complete those projects, plus a month or so, because when I leave, whatever projects I'm still working on will most likely just die, and their investment into those projects will have been for nothing.

I chose to work at the wage they were offering. If I made a bad decision, it's my fault. If I'm simply worth more now, it's still my fault. There's no need to punish the company for something that's my fault. Sure, it's hurting me in the short term to stay, but perhaps future employers will see some value in an employee who won't leave mid-project or without adequate notice.

Me too

[binaryspiral]

You have nothing to worry about - it's your life, you make the call.

If you were so crucial to the company, you should have been given the recognition as such. End user support? System Administration? These don't sound like the jobs you spent years in school to learn.

I would politly say - "I have to move on, so bring someone in and I'll spend my three - four weeks training them... but after that, I will no longer be employeed here"

Unless you specifically signed a contract saying you would give notice after X weeks - there is no "requirement" for you to do more than what you feel like.

If he doesn't like it - leave. I'm serious. Pack your desk and leave that very minute. If you put in your two weeks under that kind of duress - it'll be hell. You'll never get a good reference anyway and your resume will speak for itself.

This is a good lesson to any company owner who relies on cheap help to do the critical tasks of I.T.... you best evaluate your corporate structure and pay scales. If you can afford to lose your I.T. people who know your systems and can fix things very quickly... are they worth paying rock bottom wages? Can you afford to lose one every year? Can you do the job they do and still be productive?

I didn't think so.

Re:Me too

[rfc1394]

This is part of a somewhat larger picture. Companies will pay IT people some salary for what they are doing, but they're afraid their people will go elsewhere if they're more valuable, so they won't provide training, won't pay for it and wouldn't pay the person more once they were trained.

This is also part of the same sort of cheap-jack low-balling of costs that companies will only hire people with degrees and none of them will consider hiring people and training them to do the work, figuring - correctly - that once they are trained they will be more valuable.

Well, hell, you're supposed to include that in the cost-benefit calculations for the people that you hire. If you hire 30 people with no programming experience for $7 an hour plus two professionals at $30 an hour, it costs you the equivalent of nine employees but you'll get a hell of a lot more work from thirty-two people than you would from nine. You won't get 32 professionals worth but the value you will get will exceed that of nine professionals. Even if, total, they are only 1/2 as effective, you are getting the performance of 15 people for the cost of nine! And they'll be trained to know how your shop does things. Then the ones that stay are more valuable to you and should be compensated that way. It would probably more cost effective than the way we are doing things now.

Plus, these people will be grateful for the opportunity to learn how to become professionals and be able to work for those kind of salaries after they are trained. Sure, you'll lose a lot of them to other companies as they get good at it (that's the whole point, you're paying them less because they are less valuable but they'll still churn out more value than you pay them), and you'll have to fire some because they just can't cut it, but the difference in cost and the tremendous amount of reduced-cost labor should make it a no-brainer. And the professionals you do have will never have to work any overtime, have assistants to farm out the really boring work (which makes them learn how to actually DO the stuff nobody wants to do, like documentation and creating test suites) and it's conceivable your projects might just actually get done on time and within budget. This could conceivably mean you have people fighting to get into your company instead of people leaving. And you might actually be able to pay slightly less than market wages because of the superior fringe benefits of reduced stress and guaranteed no overtime. But we're not talking about exploiting anyone here, and you actually end up doing good for people long term.

Do answer simple questions for the next guy

[bluGill]

Lots of good advice. I won't repeat it.

What I would do though is give my email to your replacement. (not your boss, though he likely has it anyway, your replacement) Professional courtesy is to answer simple questions after he can't figure it out. Shouldn't happen often, more than 4 times and you should start thinking about billing rates. Once in a while though the next guy gets stuck and it is handy to be able to ask "Joe, do you remember how to simulate a critical over temperature test without damaging the parts?" or some other question that you just can't figure out.

Your answer should be as complete as you can make it in a few minutes. Brain dump what you remember. Don't work too hard though. Don't spend more than a few minutes unless they are paying you.

This is something you do, because sometime you will have to ask the guy you replaced. At least when he is alive - I know more than one critical person who died in the middle of a solo project. That is a different story though

Re:Do answer simple questions for the next guy

[rfc1394]

I disagree.

I would say that they overworked this guy, if the company wants answers they can pay him for them. It would cost them money to discover the answers for themselves, so he can charge them something for the learning experience. You won't get free answers from a lawyer or any other professional except in general terms on whether you need to hire them.

Now, most of us aren't that mercenary and maybe he isn't up to it, so he might give some information, but I think after the first one call, maybe two if he wants to be nice, that they be informed its, oh say, $40 an hour (or twice whatever he was being paid as an employee, whichever is higher) with a 10 minute minimum. That way, if the question isn't worth $8 they won't bother you. But if they want answers, they can pay for them as they need them.

Re:It's his own fault, you know.

[binaryspiral]

The flip side is, this is the guy's company. Your departure may lead to a string of disasters that could kill it off entirely. The big question is, is there enough bad blood between you and the company that you wouldn't mind letting your boss suffer for his mistakes? If so, I don't see any reason to let your relationship continue beyond the four weeks you outlined earlier. Maybe less, if your boss's counter-offer was galling enough.

I'm sick of seeing companies (especially small ones) bring on green I.T. guys... fill their head full of responsibilities and loyalties, but pay them jack squat. Then when they get the nerve to look around or ask for a raise - it gets thrown in their face that they're "ingrates" or "ungrateful" because company x took a "chance" and hired them... and they owe it company x.

I say blow me - have fun teaching the next guy my uncommented code, and tricks to get your cheapass copier to work day after day.

On-call and your new employer

[bigsteve@dstc]

One thing that other posters don't seem to have mentioned is that your new employer may have something to say about on-call work for someone else. Even out of hours work may be unacceptable. (And for good reason. If you are worn out with out-of-hours work for your old boss, you will not be able to work effectively for your new boss.)

Clear everything with your new employer before you make any commitments to your old boss. And make it clear to your new boss that you are doing this out of a sense of obligation to your old boss ... not as way to boost your income! Otherwise you may find that your new job is a short one.

Actually, if I were you, I would just say "NO".

Is a burnt bridge worth it?

[mnmn]

No, but if a bridge is sinking, it will no longer be a bridge. This one sounds like sea buoys connected with rope.

Unless you signed at employment time that you'll warm em 6 weeks ahead, you owe them nothing. I suggest you do look for another job since this one is not looking like it'll turn out very good. They cannot legally withhold your pay if you leave immediately.

As for the bridge, two others have apparently burnt it before, you couldnt do much damage.

Not offtopic, but not an attack on the poster...

[davidu]

This is not at all an attack on the poster as we've all "been there" but it's more a reflection on the small company or your boss...

Basically, if you are a systems administrator or network administrator and you can't quit or they can't fire you because you are crucial to their survival then that is a serious problem. I mean, how do you take vacations? No individual should be such a major single point of failure.

Just my $0.02...

-davidu

reasonable

[aminorex]

Sure he's being reasonable. Obviously, he figures the enterprise is toast with you gone, so he's practicing to be a stand-up comic. Very sensible to have a fallback career in such circumstances.

grab the new job. now!

[TheGratefulNet]

one thing being ignored, here. the longer you delay the new job, the greater the chance it will go away.

req's come and go. reorgs and such. don't even risk not getting the new job. if you start in 2 weeks, its better than waiting 4 for it. after 4, it may not even be there. yes, things change fast in hiring and in this unstable economy.

just another thing to think about. don't risk losing the new one for the sake of the old.

for the non-Americans here

[ivano]

what is the *legal* situation. is it state-by-state or are there some federal laws. For a comparison, in Belgium you give six weeks notice and if they fire you then they have to pay for it (it's like everyone getting a golden parachute deal). For instance, over 5 years of employment is between 6-8 months of pay.

ciao

Re:for the non-Americans here

[Justice8096]

In the US it is state-to-state. Virginia and New Jersey are "right-to-work" states - this means you have no rights to having a job. My company can fire me with no notice (I have seen companies fire an employee while the employee is at lunch, and not allow the employee back in the facility).
On the other hand, unless I hold a clearance, I can quit just by walking out the door without notice.
There are federal laws on what someone can be fired for, and they apply to companies with more than 50 employees. Below 50 "I don't like you" is reason enough for firing, unless you are in a state like California with aggressively protective worker rights.
In the right-to-work states companies that have a tendency to fire nastily often get paid back by having employees quit without notice. Since the HR department in those companies usually has high turn-over, it is rarely something that will come back to bite you, since HR will only confirm that you worked there and were not fired. Anything else that can not be confirmed can be used as a basis of a court suit.
Note that if an employee quits they are not eligable for unemployment insurance - so many companies would rather have employees quit than fire or lay them off. If an employee is fired or laid-off (terminated for lack of work) the company must pay for the unemployment insurance for the individual, which can be expensive.

Re:for the non-Americans here

[MrJerryNormandinSir]

The standard in the U.S. is two weeks notice. You can however leave whenever you like, just don't count on using them as a furture reference on your
resume.

How I did it

[obtuse]

I was support & system administration for a small retail chain. My boss told me when she hired me that their season was critical, and I had to be prepared to stay through the season.

After a few years of working with this great boss, I realized that I had nowhere to go, and since the boom was bubbling at the time, it would be a good time to move on. I gave her four weeks notice, and the season had not yet begun, although I knew it would soon.

She asked me to stay through the season again, and having looked at the SAGE salary survey, here is how I put it to her:
I need $$$ to stay through the season. This isn't a negotiating tactic, it is just what this is worth to me, and is a low rate according to my research. In short order, they gave me a 50% raise for my last 4 months, and were happy with the results. They should have been happy, since I worked hard and it was still less than 2/3 of what my next job paid. I was happy that the boom didn't collapse until after I found my next job.

Your initial offer of a month was generous. What is the pay differential? What is the value of the job you have already found, or rather what is the cost of declining the other offer? If you accept his terms, you'll be declining that offer. What is the cost of working for this SOB?

Pick an amount that is worth it to you personally, allows you to feel that you have done the right thing, and stick to it. If I was in your shoes, it would be a large amount, since your boss sounds like an undesirable character.

Honestly, your boss sounds stupid and greedy, and like someone you should just get away from. He's trying to take advantage of you, and doing it clumsily. You might consider getting his insulting "offer" in writing, primarily to defend yourself from him potentially blackmailing you in the future. If he refuses you a good reference, you can pull out the letter and point out that his proposal, while unreasonable, hardly indicates that you were less than satisfactory.

You don't want to burn bridges, but this guy is being entirely unreasonable, and you don't want to donate that much of your life to him. Four weeks is generous.

Ooooo, pedants!

[Anonymous Coward]

(nt)

You owe them exactly nothing

[rfc1394]

If you have a contract (which I doubt) they owe you salary up till the end of the contract and you can't quit before it.

If, as I suspect, your employment is "at will" meaning your employer can fire you without notice and you can quit without notice. You can bet your employer would not be offering to give you 6 weeks extra pay or other benefits if they terminated your employment.

Unless they gave you some tremendous benefit at a time you needed it, or really did something nice for you when they could have squeezed you over it, never under any circumstances charge less. Since I suspect this has never happened, do not give them anything at a discount. No exceptions. In fact, you should charge more because it costs them less.

You do not owe them any discount at all and it was unreasonable for them to ask for it. Doesn't mean they can't ask, but if they can't afford you they have no business running a computer system in the first place. They wouldn't be getting an employee to work at a discount, they shouldn't expect it of a consultant.

If you want to be more than fair, mirror exactly what they offer you. If all you get out of them if you are fired is two weeks severence, then that's all the notice they should get. If they want you to work for them beyond your employment it should be at full pay or above since you're not their employee.

In fact, since you are not their employee they shouldn't be getting a discount you should be charging them at least double to cover your overhead (you have to pay the full 14% Social Security, not just the 7% employee tax, you have to cover your own health care (the fact you may have it from another employer is irrelevant; it's still a cost they would have to pay if you were their employee and they are not paying yours), you have to carry your own disability insurance (again, it's a cost they're not paying that they would otherwise), and you have to pay your own pension plan contributions in addition to what would be company match). Also they aren't paying you for sitting around when you're not working for them, which means there's no overhead cost added, so even at twice your wages your cost to them as a consultant is less than that of an employee.

There is absolutely no excuse for a company to be paying a former employee who is now a consultant less than at least twice his employee wages except an attempt by the company to cheat him by paying him as a non-employee less than he is worth as an employee. Which is ridiculous since even at twice the cost it's still less than the fully burdened cost of an employee, which is at least 2 1/2 times actual salary.

Paul Robinson

Does "Subsidized rates" mean what I think it does?

[geminidomino]

First off, your boss has no business REQUIRING a damned thing from you. Unless you are under contract that prevents it, which it appears you are not, you are TERMINATING your employment. If you want to give 4 weeks instead of 2, great for you. You're a nice guy.

Does "subsidized rates" mean paying you LESS to be on call? If so, the hell with that. If you want to be on call for CONSLUTANT rates, then that might be a plan, but don't be a doormat.

Re:Does "Subsidized rates" mean what I think it do

[LouCifer]

I agree 100%. Its up to the OP to set the terms, not the (soon-to-be-former) boss.

I'd counter his offer and tell him I'd give the standard 2 wks notice and offer on-call support at a 50% increase in the standard hourly rate, minimum 2 hours.

What's he going to do? Fire you?

Don't be a weenie, but look out for your own

[Goose3254]

Compromise at 3 weeks as a full time employee, with the second and third week at 2x pay (you should be deep in training your replacement by then). Offer another 3 weeks as a PART TIME CONSULTANT at 4x pay (4hr min with drivetime, if it can't be handled remotely). Ask for a written and signed recommendation also. Your new employer should be impressed with your apparent dedication, if you explain the situation, but leave out the remuneration.

If your boss doesn't agree with your compromises, indicate that he had two years to get someone up to speed, and, since the company could have released you at any time without warning, 2 weeks is generous.

On another tack, I've never left a position without giving my current employer a chance to meet my new offer's pay and _conditions_. Just remember that if your boss DOES meet the new job's offer, he's going to be looking to get rid of you down the road. He's the boss, and it will not sit well with him that you got the upper hand.

Get it in writing, no matter how you decide to handle it.

Burn your bridges behind you...

[haplo21112]

...that way at least if they find you they know you have a flame thrower.

What is in the contract?

[ClickNMix]

I've not seen any mention yet of contracts. Every job I've had, be it Full time IT work, or temping in a warehouse doing manual labor has always had in the contract what is expected of employer, and employee with regards to a job ending. I think for full time work it's usually been 2 weeks, plus a week per year you've been there or some such.

As the sole worker in a department it's perfectly reasonable for the employer to expect time to find a replacement for you. Of course, not having it in writing makes things akward in that respect, so you need to decided what to do, two weeks seems very short, and so four might seem more approprite.. six weeks on the other hand might be a push, and having you 'on call' after that period, when you no longer work there is outside the realms of what would seem like common practice. - Sure, leave them an email address so new developers can ask you stuff if need be, so as not to actually burn bridges and offer a sign of good will. But draw the line between othering a bit of friendly guidance and giving professional assistance.

Another bad example

[Scott7477]

You don't really owe your company squat. However, they can make life difficult for you. As an example, at a company I worked for during the late nineties, we were doing a massive SAP implementation and our IT people were quitting fairly regularly as they were getting better offers. Our chief operating officer spread the word around town that he would sue the pants off of any business or tech recruiter that went after any more of our IT people. Those of our guys that were still with the company were naturally hosed. No one would touch them. Basically, everyone at our company hated this guy, but what can you do?

Re:Another bad example

[g0bshiTe]

You all should have quit in protest, management would have found out when no new techs applied ( from having heard that they sue recruiters ) have em can his ass, then get back to work.

Yeah, before you flame me I know it's nice in theory and looks good in print, but life doesn't work that way.

Re:Another bad example

[plague3106]

Out of curiosity, what legal ground did your boss have to sue another company? In a free market (which is what businesses are always crying about, right) any company should be able to recruit anyone they want.

fuck em

[Anonymous Coward]

you've exceeded expectations with 4 weeks notice. notify your new employer of the situation and bail.

Who would subsidize the rates?

[cybernautix]

I'm confused. If your boss wants "subsidized rates", who will provide the subsidy? "Subsidized rates" usually means that the buyer gets a discount and the seller gets full price while a third party makes up the difference...hence the "susidy".

Ask your boss who will subsidize the rates? And get out of there ASAP. Two weeks, max, and don't look back.

Re:Not offtopic, but not an attack on the poster..

[Anonymous Coward]

Great point. There are also a lot of doctors (in smaller locales) who start to feel the same way: that they are unreplaceable, they have to keep working every hour, that no-one else can do their job or that no-one else is available to do that job.

This always leads to burnout. As a doctor, you've got to have call coverage and be prepared to be able to have downtime. If you're in a situation like this, it's a sure sign that they need more than one person. Don't be the patsy.

Re:Not offtopic, but not an attack on the poster..

[kris_lang]

Great point. There are also a lot of doctors (in smaller locales) who start to feel the same way: that they are unreplaceable, they have to keep working every hour, that no-one else can do their job or that no-one else is available to do that job.

This always leads to burnout. As a doctor, you've got to have call coverage and be prepared to be able to have downtime. If you're in a situation like this, it's a sure sign that they need more than one person. Don't be the patsy

subsidized rates?

[Anonymous Coward]

the hell with that.

you consult with him (but make sure you make up a contract specificig you dont owe him ANYTHING other than the work to be done).

i would say $30-50 is reasonable. but nothing less than twice what you are making.

this makes him realize he is paying you for something and not wasting anyones time.

i would say 2 weeks notice is reasonable. offer to help find a replacmenet maybe, if you have the time before you want to leave, 4 weeks (you have a date for something else in mind)

if you want to be nice, ie small non consulting things, like providing info they dont know about, offer to be "on call" (very limited in time though, availibility and how long it will take)

i hope you asked for numerous raises since you were doing 3-4 jobs as it was.

$50?

[lorcha]

$50? An unreasonable amount? You're goddamn right that's unreasonable. You couldn't get me to change your fucking tire for $50/hour.

This guy is the company's entire IT department. If he's getting anything less than $100/hour he's being raped. If you think that's unreasonable, ask me what rate I change my clients.

BTW, if you can find me a plumber or electrician who only charges $50/hr, give me his number! I've got a ton of work for him to do.

First of all, there's "required"...

[jht]

Technically, you aren't "required" to give him any notice at all. If you'd like, you could simply not show up for work tomorrow and he has no recourse whatsoever. Without a contract stating otherwise, your employment is "at will", meaning essentially that you could be terminated tomorrow for no reason, and you can leave anytime you want.

That all said, as a practical matter you need to ask yourself how much this job mean to you, and how badly do you want a good reference (or if you need one). Two weeks is the accepted standard for most jobs, and sometimes it can be more or less depending on circumstances. I spent six years (from '92 to '98) at an advertising agency where I was the systems manager, and although I had people working for me when I decided to move on, I gave six weeks' notice, trained the person who was designated my replacement, and answered occasional questions for no cost for a while afterwards.

On the other hand, they treated me very well, gave me glowing recommendations, and even gave me the PowerBook I was using there as a going-away gift. So in a way it depends on how you want to treat your bridges. If your current employer is someone you want to be able to turn to in the future, and who treated you OK, then you shouldn't have a problem going beyond two weeks. And your new employer should understand that you're trying to do the Right Thing. OTOH, if the current employer just plain sucks (and from reading your question I suspect they do), then you give 'em 2 weeks, collect your accrued vacation, and get the heck out. If they want you available for work afterwards, fine - quote them a price for services that you feel is reasonable and tell them that you can help out after-hours.

If they don't like it, screw 'em. You fulfilled the extent of your obligations to the current employer by showing up.

How do you spell naïve?

[theantix]

It's not my fault you don't understand how the world works.

Resonable has nothing to do with it

[topham]

Reasonable is 2 weeks notice.

Being a nice guy is a month.

Being foolish is more than that.

If you're leaving because of money/future prospects, but your current boss, and company is great to work for otherwise then stay for what you think is reasonable. a couple weeks to bring the new guy up to speed (atleast to the point where he is self-sufficient 80% of the time); a couple of weeks to wrap up a project and tie up a few lose ends. Etc.

If they want more than that you should consider charging them for it at rates that are atleast 3 times what your salary was (when converted to a per hour rate).

You should be perfectly clear that you have the opportunity to opt out of the situation at specific points in time.

If the situation sounds good to you, and your future employer doesn't have a problem with it you might consider contracting to the prior employer for 3 months.

Do NOT base it on the completion of an existing project. They will keep you hanging for months by shifting requirements, etc.

Remember, it has to be in there interest to get somebody new, or they won't.

On the other hand, if you like the idea of it being on a permanent basis, go for it. Some people like that type of thing.

OT - how this works in .eu

[tetrode]

I am a bit amazed how this is working in the US of A - 2 weeks seems rather short to me. Let me tell you how this works in Belgium and The Netherlands, two countries where I have worked.

When you boss wants to fire you it depends how long you have worked for the company and how much you earn. If my boss currently would want to fire me he'd need to keep me (or only pay me) 4 or 5 months.

When you want to quit, you have to work at least one month, depending on how you arrange it with your employer.

Your Value?

[MudButt]

If your boss is asking for more time then he's obviously realizing your value to his company. If I were in your position I would give two weeks notice and then tell him you'll be available to contract on an hourly basis after that. Double your salary. (I'm not kidding about that part, you'll be paying more taxes on that money than if you were an actual employee). This way you can still work as needed, but you will receive an added bonus for staying longer. If he doesn't agree, tell him "Thanks, but I need to go" and that's the end of it. =)

You owe them nothing, and they're taking advantage

[sexylicious]

of you.

Case in point: my former employer was a great place to work for me, but I just wasn't into doing some of the projects that they had me working on. So I started looking for another job, and it took about a year for me to get an offer.

I gave a notice to my bosses that I was looking at other options. This was two months prior to my current project end-date. I didn't hear anything for about 6 weeks, and I was putting the final drafts together for the project's final deliverables. I asked my direct boss (the company's technical manager), what the next project was. His reply was that the board decided that because I was looking at other options, that there woulnd't be a next project for me after my current one.

About the only reason I kept them in the loop was to be nice and make the transition smooth. But they screwed me over. I had a hard time getting unemployment, because I was basically terminated for lack of work. And for four months I had no money coming in, I got the job I was interested in, moved to a different state, and maxed out my credit cards.

From that point on, I vowed to never give more than two weeks notice. And if I had to because of the nature of my work, that I would do it only after having a job offer and it would be at MY convenience.

In my opinion, you owe this company nothing, and you can tell them to fsck off should they complain. There's no law that says you have to quit in a certain manner... at least not that I or anyone I know has ever heard of. And realize that you are only bound by that employer's contract with you until the moment that you quit (minus any clauses preventing you to work for a couple of years afterwards doing the same work... as is the case with many aerospace companies and the federal government).

Now, if you don't want to burn bridges with this company, you'll want to think about putting things in a diplomatic tone (no fsck offs). But if you've got several offers from various companies, I'd say that burning this bridge doesn't matter much in the long term.

Good luck, and remember to look out for yourself FIRST, then others. ;)

Put it in writing

[g0bshiTe]

Ask them to draft a contract stating the 3 month period of tech support, have it state a 24 hour response time, plus a fee paid to you on a per call basis, IE regular phone call $20, if you have to show up a $40 service call and $20/hr charge minimum of 2 hour charge even if your there 10 mins.

In all honesty you have other offers, you owe them nothing. The other developers left for a reason, the reason was most likely due to unreasonable managment.

Don't think that they can dictate what you can do or let them tell you what you will do. They can't do that. You are leaving them, they are worried they will be stuck high and dry. Ensure that by agreeing to offer your services that you will be compensated a reasonable rate and that you are not going to jump when they call. You never know your new job may prevent you from honoring any agreement with them for bieng "on-call", thus the 24 hour response time.

You have them by the short n curlies, don't think they have you.


Please protect yourself and get it in writing. You can do this for them if you choose, but do it because you want to and on your terms, don't let them bully you into it.

Now you work for him... now you don't

[chiph]

It's pretty much that simple. Now I work for you, and you pay me a salary. Tomorrow, I don't, and you don't pay me anything.

Like (everyone!) else has said, two weeks is the normal courtesy period in the US (I understand it's much longer in the UK). Afterwards, you can do some consulting after hours for them if you feel like it. I wouldn't gouge them -- charge them the going market rate. It's just business, they'll understand. And if they don't understand, they'll learn soon enough.

Chip H.

Your boss is screwing you

[JocksRPeople2]

and if you don't stand up for yourself nobody will. Tell him/her two weeks with no execptions and if your boss is unwilling to accept that then pack your box and walk out. Unless you signed some sort of contract stating you wouldn't leave without a predetermined notice then you owe your boss nothing. Your boss has done nothing but take advantage and it's time to back him/her into the corner and see how he/she reacts. If he/she comes back with some sort of mega-bucks offer then get it in writing or no deal. Milk it for all it's worth!

What you're required to do vs. corporate etiquette

[raider_red]

In response to your question, the boss is being completely unreasonable. You are under no obligation to give any notice whatsoever. This can affect your ability to get rehired at some companies, but otherwise, there are no penalties that can be applied. You have the option to set whatever end date you want in your resignation. If the boss doesn't like it, he can always let you go sooner, and you can proceed to the next job without guilt.

Two weeks notice is considered good manners. It's more a matter of corporate custom and good form than a true requirement. In my career, I've had one instance where I did give four weeks notice because I knew that leaving sooner would put my boss in a tight spot. In another, I gave two weeks and was released a week early by my employer. (With no penalties to rehire status.)

Don't be a wimp.

[bbuR_bbuB]

The money is there for the taking. Clean the bastards out. Who cares? I'm sure your boss wasn't thinking 'Gee, I feel bad that I'm not paying X as much as I am getting paid. Let me give him a few more bucks!' Why should you be nice to them? 2 weeks, that's it. Anything more, and that's $500/hr, please. Or you can work cheaper, and then cause yourself problems later on when expect more money.

Counter offer

[Anonymous Coward]

First off, you have a valid written offer of employment from another employer. That new employer has a problem that they need an employee to solve - and that's YOU.

Most employers realize that they need you now, but don't want to get f'd over themselves, so they say "ok" to when you tell them you can start in 2 weeks. In the meantime, it gives HR and a few other departments some time to get your desk, phone, accounts, etc. all set up and ready. It gives them time to run a background check on you, and have you pee in a cup...

That 2 weeks is a courtesy. Short of a written employment contract between you and the current employer, there's no law enforcing it. It's what's know as "at-will" employment, so that means the current can fire you for basically any reason or no reason, and you can walk for any reason at any time.

Anyone coming to me and asking for 4 or 6 weeks notice when I tell them I'm quitting is out of their mind. That's going to jeopardize your new job. And no matter what deal you concoct with the old boss, if you end up not getting the new job because of the excessive delay, and staying with the old guy - you can bet your ass that the old guy is getting rid of you ASAP...all the while working your ass to the bone.

What I'd do is say this:

"Wow Bob, that's a pretty long time. My new employer really wanted me to start tomorrow, but in all honesty I wanted to do the standup thing and have a smooth transition that's why I'm giving you a two week notice. Now I understand that the department is me, myself, and I and you need to get someone on-board to take over things. I'd suggest bringing in a couple of temps from an agency tomorrow, and then over the next two weeks I'll do a brain dump with them. And for two weeks after that I'll carry one of your alpha pagers and respond to their questions within 24 hours at a cost of $150/hour in 15-minute increments - which you'll cut me a check for weekly. At the end of the two weeks, I'll return the pager to you. After that I doubt that I'd be of much use as a lot of stuff might have changed..."

Leave it at that. DO NOT NEGOTIATE on the $150/hr. If you do, you will get picked on for every friggin useless question. What you want is to not be bothered at all unless everything is down. And by saying "w/in 24 hours" that allows you to sleep or eat or whatever, and force the old employer to THINK about what they want before they page you. It will also force them to hire a higher class of temp, rather than some $6/hr asshole who can't handle anything...

Also, because they'll be using high-priced temps, you'll light a fire under his ass to hire 2 or 3 people immediately and have them train with the temps because you're gone.

Leave, learn from the experience, and don't look back. Finally, when someone wants you to take over the responsibilities of 3 people, just don't do it - not for any period of time at all. Do the work YOU are supposed to do. The other shit can fall by the wayside. Once it does, the boss will realize that there are more people needed and will bring them onboard. But as soon as you do that extra work, you've just proven that you can handle it and you'll never get rid of it again...

By the way - IANAL, but I do have an EMBA and have managed groups up to 300 people with billion dollar budgets under my belt so I know what I'm talking about. I've also had enough labor law classes that I probably should become a lawyer...

You're being gracious, he's being an ass...

[rkhalloran]

Two weeks is industry-standard, four is generous as long as the new job is willing to wait. Your loyalty at this point is to them, not the old job.

Any assistance your former employer wants after that point is contract work, at going contractor rates, and may not conflict with your new job (repeat: your loyalty at this point is to them). If he's willing to put that in writing, and if you don't mind the extra work, and if the new employer is willing to allow for it (as opposed to All Your Time is Belong To Us), go for it. If he's not willing, well that's probably why you were looking to begin with, true?

General hints on leaving a company

[Kirth Gersen]

1. No matter how you feel, remain civil at all times when negotiating with the old company, and make an effort to leave on good terms. For instance, suppose your boss quits and the company wants to offer you his job?

2. For some reason, it is human nature for a boss to get angry if you refuse to do something outright, but if you *name a high price* tempers will remain cool. However, if they accept, *make sure you get everything signed by your boss *and* his boss*. If they say something like "we're grownups, you can trust us!" it's a *time to worry*.

3. Your new company cannot feel too harshly about you trying to support a previous employer. On the other hand, you should keep in touch with them about what you are offering the old company. For instance, the new company might say "heck, no more than five hours per week!". If you get that in writing and wave it at the old employer, your boss will see the problem.

4. This is not relevant to your current issue, but make sure you get personal contact info from everyone you liked at the old company. Then *keep in touch*.

5. If something goes *wrong* with something you worked on, don't feel guilty. You wouldn't have returned your pay for fixing it if you still worked there, would you?

Wait...

[Anonymous Coward]

Does this boss have Mafia connections? Is that where he gets off thinking he can push you around like this?

If so, you might want to think about how far away you can move, and whether he can come after people you love after you are gone.

It's something you have to take into consideration. Make sure you have something to counter-blackmail him with.

For example, install certain expensive software packages at work, and make sure if you get knocked off, the BSA finds out about it.

For example, if you have access to the backups of the company's financial records, make sure the offsite backup copy is good and analyze it--and then get your next job at the IRS.

It's called playing off one mob against another, and it can be quite necessary for survival in the real world.

2 weeks notice is the standard.

[MrJerryNormandinSir]

We live in a free country. 2 weeks is the standard
notice, but if you feel you will be cheated out of
your pay then my recommendation is:
1. Go on interviews and get your new job.
2. Take some much deserved vacation time (call in sick)
3. Change your phone number to a new unlisted phone
number.
4. Setup your antispam software to reject email from
work.
5. After your much deserved vacation time call in
sick.
6. Go to the office when you think your check is in, go to the person that hands them out and get your check.
7. Work a little, leave sick.
8. Don't go back.
9. Start your new job.

What your employer is asking from you isn't right.
If you want to stay there ask for more money and
say you need it or you would need to go somewhere else since you have some debt you need to pay off.