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Computers in Space Examined

Wil Harris writes "There's an article about the computers used in space missions over at bit-tech this morning. It covers the processor types and speeds, why space stations are less powerful than the laptops that astronauts take up with them and why tape storage is still de rigeur. An interesting and concise couple o' pages."

267 comments

  1. K.I.S.S. by fembots · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The fewer components you have, the less likely you are to encounter a failure.

    I remember reading something about most space missions are pre-determined and very straight forward, there's no need for difficult maneuver like one has to execute in a X-Wing.

    Having said that, there are still plenty of complicated, unexpected problems in space, but these problems have to be analysed and decision made by people on earth.

    I guess it's all circumstantial, I can't even operate my 2001 Toyota electric window if the engine's dead, but my 1989 Toyota has no such problem. So if I crashed into a river, I hope I was driving the '89, but if I'm crashing into another car, I want my '01.

    1. Re:K.I.S.S. by AtariAmarok · · Score: 4, Funny
      "The fewer components you have, the less likely you are to encounter a failure."

      Which is why the good old fashioned meteor, with one REALLY BIG moving part, is one of the most successful space vehicles ever. Ol' T-Rex can attest to its effectiveness.

      --
      Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
    2. Re:K.I.S.S. by NanoGator · · Score: 1

      "there's no need for difficult maneuver like one has to execute in a X-Wing." ...at least until space battles become a reality.

      --
      "Derp de derp."
    3. Re:K.I.S.S. by william_w_bush · · Score: 5, Informative

      also, older components tend to use larger signaling thresholds, which makes a big difference considering the mag-flux caused by radiation in space is much higher than on earth. id guess those tapes are also done with a high bias, as platters could be wiped with a decent flare, and fine-process cmos chips could be knocked out completely with a suprisingly small charge. even a small spike in power from a line surging or regulator going bad could take down some hard-disks, while all you have to do is rewind the tape and it's good.

      you only need enough cpu power to handle some basic tasks and send the rest down to earth. considering most of the software is in c or assembler a 486 is an awful lot of power for most tasks.

      --
      The first rule of USENET is you do not talk about USENET.
    4. Re:K.I.S.S. by Fjornir · · Score: 2, Insightful
      ...So if I crashed into a river, I hope I was driving the '89...

      Entirely offtopic, but do you wear a seatbelt? Can you unbuckle it when it's loaded (ie: you're hanging upside down from it?)? Get a seatbelt saw/window hammer. The combined tool is not much larger than your thumb, and it comes on a lanyard to hang from your rearview mirror. Some are also emergency flashlight.

      --
      I want a new world. I think this one is broken.
    5. Re:K.I.S.S. by OneOver137 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The fewer components you have, the less likely you are to encounter a failure.

      True hardware box failures are taken care of by redundancies,not by limiting parts.

      I remember reading something about most space missions are pre-determined and very straight forward

      Actually, the military likes to get the most mileage out of their assets and you would not believe some of the reprogramming that goes on to reconfigure the software to extend and/or modify a mission.

      but these problems have to be analysed and decision made by people on earth.

      Yes, but response time for anomaly teams is usually an hour at best. Many satellites have built-in error checking and will take care of themselves given the chance, including putting themselves into "safemode."

    6. Re:K.I.S.S. by fishbowl · · Score: 1

      "and it comes on a lanyard to hang from your rearview mirror."

      There can be some pretty significant forces there; are you sure you want something dense enough and heavy enough to break safety glass, and sharp enough to cut through a seatbelt, dangling there?

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
    7. Re:K.I.S.S. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But surely you need a decent computer to make the calculations for the jump to light-speed? As we know, traveling through hyperspace isn't like dusting crops, boy! Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?

    8. Re:K.I.S.S. by Fjornir · · Score: 2, Informative
      Yes, I most certainly am. First, the safety glass you're thinking of is the windshield -- side windows are considerably easier to break. Also, a window hammer isn't like a standard claw hammer where the work is done by impact of a large mass on the target, it's more of a spike so the smallish force you are applying is focussed onto one very small point on the window shattering it in two or three blows.

      Your concern about the blade is misplaced as well -- the "business end" of the device (both the hammer spike and blade) is kept safe in a capsule you need to unscrew to get them out. The blade is also protected by a guard rather like the one on a letter opener.

      If I'm in a serious enough accident where I need to worry about my rearview coming off the windshield, the case braking open and me getting stabbed by this piece of emergency gear then... I think getting stabbed by this piece of emergency gear will be the least of my worries.

      --
      I want a new world. I think this one is broken.
    9. Re:K.I.S.S. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For the radiation problem, couldn't they just put the whole computer in a lead box? Then they could use off the shelf components.

    10. Re:K.I.S.S. by fishbowl · · Score: 1

      Ok. I just got through having someone explain a physics problem, where the setup was a stuffed animal hanging from the rear view mirror of a truck going off a cliff on a curved road, and you had to give the position and velocity of the truck based mainly on the position vector of the stuffed animal. (At least the physics prof from hell has a sense of humor.)

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
    11. Re:K.I.S.S. by the+pickle · · Score: 2, Informative

      You must not have seen the Car and Driver article where they tested about five or six of those things.

      Absolutely, utterly, 100 percent useless. They couldn't break a window if you shot them out of a railgun. Seriously.

      p

    12. Re:K.I.S.S. by Fjornir · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Nope. Don't read Car and Driver. Did break a window with one once. Dunno why Car and Driver would print that, but it wasn't hard.

      --
      I want a new world. I think this one is broken.
    13. Re:K.I.S.S. by gad_zuki! · · Score: 1

      Now please explain this simple concept my professor who keeps saying "Modern cell-phones have 100x the processing power of the space shuttle!" I feel like I deserve a 10% refund for the class everytime he tries to shock me with that statement.

    14. Re:K.I.S.S. by maroonhat · · Score: 1, Insightful

      a twin engine plane has twice as many engine problems as a plane with two engines
      ~the spirit of st. louis (Lingberg)

      --
      The more I learn about Windows the more I am surprised it runs at all
    15. Re:K.I.S.S. by Detritus · · Score: 1

      That just makes things worse. A cosmic ray hits an atom of lead and produces a shower of less energetic particles, which still have enough energy to cause damage and flip bits.

      --
      Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
    16. Re:K.I.S.S. by fireman+sam · · Score: 2, Funny

      I think that Ol' T-Rex can attest to the fact that the meteor was in fact a very bad vehicle. The driver could not even turn to avoid something as big as a planet.

      --
      it is only after a long journey that you know the strength of the horse.
    17. Re:K.I.S.S. by RosenSama · · Score: 1

      And yet the space shuttle has more moving parts and is cited as the most complex machine ever built.

    18. Re:K.I.S.S. by Jimmy+The+Leper · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't know, they'd have to be pretty good in order to hit something as small as a planet...

      --
      -You're only as clean as your towel.
    19. Re:K.I.S.S. by hugzz · · Score: 1

      Imagine the amount of folding they could do up there with a real processor though!

    20. Re:K.I.S.S. by TWX · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "True hardware box failures are taken care of by redundancies,not by limiting parts."

      It's still very smart to use a small core of very expensive and high quality parts that can function entirely on their own, rather than to have a vast, interconnected system that needs most everything present and working in order to remain functional. It's kind of like Galileo and the Voyager probes, where the basic core was over-engineered the right way to withstand problems, while the external stuff was ultimately expendable or redundant.

      "Yes, but response time for anomaly teams is usually an hour at best. Many satellites have built-in error checking and will take care of themselves given the chance, including putting themselves into 'safemode.'"

      These systems drop back to a minimal mode using their high quality cores while ignoring the add-ons and modules that have failed. The basic system is very solid, the severable or ignorable expansion bus, to use an analogy, is where parts that could malfunction or otherwise have issues are placed, so to reduce the chances of causing a complete failure. K.I.S.S. principle is a very, very good design, especially when there are a lack of restrictions governing how the core has to be applied. Cars got complicated, for example, not when automakers decided to make them more difficult, but when external forces like pollution controls forced automakers to cobble extra stuff on to their engines and exhaust systems, and when fuel economy rules forced the adoption of increasingly complex control systems that are themselves prone to failure LONG before the "open valve, suck air and fuel in, compress fuel/air, explode fuel/air, decompress fuel/air, force fuel/air out through another valve" portion of the engine malfunctions.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    21. Re:K.I.S.S. by dabigpaybackski · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Plus you pay $$$ for every ounce of payload that goes up. Lead is heavy.

      --
      "OH SHIT, THERE'S A HORSE IN THE HOSPITAL!"
    22. Re:K.I.S.S. by Inominate · · Score: 1

      Looks like a fish, moves like a fish, steers like a cow.

    23. Re:K.I.S.S. by jacksonj04 · · Score: 1

      That's a shame, since they're based on ones used in things like trains. It's possible to go through a train window easily with one of the emergency hammers, all I can see different in a car is you have less swinging distance (Even though the ones on trains work with a 30cm/12" swing).

      As for the railgun, if a car window can deflect things launched from railguns it's doing a bloody good job. A small one a group of us built at college put the shot through a plywood wall.

      --
      How many people can read hex if only you and dead people can read hex?
    24. Re:K.I.S.S. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      So if I crashed into a river,...

      What he means is

      So if I fall into a river,...

      ;)

    25. Re:K.I.S.S. by weg · · Score: 1

      The fewer components you have, the less likely you are to encounter a failure.

      Not necessarily.. replicas increase dependability.

      --
      Georg
    26. Re:K.I.S.S. by HD+Webdev · · Score: 1

      Nope. Don't read Car and Driver. Did break a window with one once. Dunno why Car and Driver would print that, but it wasn't hard.

      Breaking windows with the porcelain from a spark plug is easy, and it's extremely quiet to boot.

      Many thieving gangs use this method because of that. They can steal what they want from a car without anyone hearing or setting off the car alarm. This also works for home burglaries. A spark plug can shatter a sliding glass door very quietly and the intruder can be inside the house within 5-10 seconds after clearing out some of that shattered glass.

      --
      This is not a dream, not a dream...we are transmitting from the year 1-9-9-9.
    27. Re:K.I.S.S. by DerekLyons · · Score: 1
      you only need enough cpu power to handle some basic tasks and send the rest down to earth.
      Not really. Even with it's tiny CPU, the Apollo CSM computer was completely capable of navigating to the moon and back completely without ground support. Navigation applications are typically medium simple math, control applications are typically fairly straight forward logic trees - niether of which need tons of horsepower to accomplish.
      considering most of the software is in c or assembler a 486 is an awful lot of power for most tasks.
      Even if it's written in C, it's typically hand optimized in spots. And it *doesn't* have to deal with a variable hardware environment or a complex OS. (In fact, the 'OS' of virtually every non-PC/game machine would be utterly unrecognizeable as such to the average /. reader.)
    28. Re:K.I.S.S. by DerekLyons · · Score: 1
      The fewer components you have, the less likely you are to encounter a failure.

      True hardware box failures are taken care of by redundancies,not by limiting parts.

      Actually, I was reading some of the Apollo guidance design documents the other day - and according to them you are partially wrong.

      Limiting components (in total count) and limiting components (by type of component) means you can increase and simply your QA and testing - which inherently simplifies and increases the reliability of your overall system.

    29. Re:K.I.S.S. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I worked for five years on the onboard OS for space shuttle (FCOS) - the OS software that runs on the AP101/S and controls the space shuttle. I used to be part of the priviledged, proud, small group of engineerings at IBM FSD who wrote/maintain the US/Space Shuttle onboard software; the best job I ever have had. This system is nothing simple (no K.I.S.S. here) - the hardware may be "underpowered" when compared to today's computers, but advanced when it was introduced (32-bits, 16MB, etc), and it is pretty complex - it is designed to be fail operational/fail safe, lot's of redundancy, lots of synchronization between computers per second, lots of I/O and timers and critical stuff happening many times per second. The I/O code is self-healing; it modifies itself when I/O errors are encountered during flight. Each computer has 24 I/O buses, and there are 4 computers running on a redundant set, synchronizing and voting (in favor or against other) many times a second. And the software is very complex, and the hardware is specially made for space (radiation hard, self-correcting bit errors), etc, etc, etc.

      C. Enrique Ortiz

    30. Re:K.I.S.S. by the+pickle · · Score: 1

      The problem is none of 'em are made properly. Fire axes -- I haven't seen the emergency hammers on trains, but I'm assuming they're similar -- and any good quality tool-type hammers are made with forged or cast metal heads and a nice heavy-duty shaft.

      These useless "emergency escape hammers" for cars are plastic, with a little metal tip on one end of the head (like that's going to break something). They wouldn't survive if a car ran over them, much less break a window and allow you to escape from a sinking car.

      Of course, even if you HAVE a good window-breaking device, breaking the window may or may not be the best solution to escaping the car. They had an accompanying article about a Dutch school that teaches underwater vehicle escape, a key skill in Holland, where there are lots of canals that run alongside roads. Breaking the window isn't always the best thing to do.

      p

    31. Re:K.I.S.S. by tsotha · · Score: 1
      Limiting components (in total count) and limiting components (by type of component) means you can increase and simply your QA and testing - which inherently simplifies and increases the reliability of your overall system.

      Yeah. My experience with redundent systems is the point of failure moves around without dissappearing. We had a cluster go belly up last month due to a software failure that wouldn't have been there in a single system.

    32. Re:K.I.S.S. by Phist · · Score: 1

      Automobiles became more complicated because the customer demands more capability with the least amount of exhaust. Hope your cup holder don't break down.

  2. The Old Fashioned Way by ikkibr · · Score: 0, Funny

    That's why i'm staying with my old Pentium 99mhz ^^

    1. Re:The Old Fashioned Way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      That's why i'm staying with my old Pentium 99mhz ^^

      (Score: -0.9999999989898 Redundant)

  3. Computers in Space by AtariAmarok · · Score: 5, Funny
    "Open the pod bay doors, HAL!"

    Nuff said (but there's something to be said for the butlerian jihad, and Cmdr Adama filling his battlestar with rotary phones and manual typewriters!)

    --
    Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
  4. Goverment not very advanced by TruePaige · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Doesn't it seem very strange compared to the days where the goverment had super computers and the regular people had no computers? A stark contrast indeed. Now we are...close to the same level? Does this sound realistic, or are aces up their sleeves?

    1. Re:Goverment not very advanced by Stevyn · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If you're referring to the article blurb, the article says this is because they have no need for a newer computer.

      If you're referring to the government in general that they don't have ultra-powerful computers, then it's because they don't need them. If Congress can allocate billions and billions to the war in Iraq, I think if there was a serious need for computing power then they'd have purchased it already.

    2. Re:Goverment not very advanced by qzulla · · Score: 1
      They did: ASCI purple

      qz

    3. Re:Goverment not very advanced by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Doesn't it seem very strange compared to the days where the goverment had super computers and the regular people had no computers?

      It's not all that different: The government has computers that will work reliably in outer space. The regular people don't.

    4. Re:Goverment not very advanced by NOLAChief · · Score: 1

      A whole deck full of them. Browse through here to get an idea. Uses from nuclear physics, CFD, military applications, applications that will set off the tinfoil beanie crowd...yeah, the .gov still has supercomputers. Heck, how do you think NOAA makes the weather forecasts that AccuWeather wants to (re)sell you?

    5. Re:Goverment not very advanced by bm_luethke · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Govt never flew supercomputers into space, land based they still have vastly superior computing power. I doubt many of us has a multi-teraflop computer in thier basement.

      Space has always been about reliability, can't repair much when you are up there. All the processing happens Earth bound. The ratio has gotten *bigger* as time has gone on (look at the top 100 or top 500 supercomputing lists) - what we can run at home is *nothing* like what the large govt installations run. Even if you had the money the local power board isn't going to run your power needs into a residential zone, let alone you have a large staff 24 hours a day to maintain your l337 system.

      --
      ------- Sorry about the spelling, I suffer from two problems. Dyslexia makes it difficult to spell well, lazy makes it
    6. Re:Goverment not very advanced by The_Wilschon · · Score: 1

      I work for Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory, and I know we've got some amazing computing systems. I think its not supercomputers, but massive clusters. http://computing.fnal.gov/cd/

      FNAL is owned by the Department of Energy, which is quite definitely gov't. That might be one ace... And I'm sure there are many others at, for example, Los Alamos, Argonne, Jefferson Labs, etc. Not to mention military installations...

      --
      SIGSEGV caught, terminating

      wait... not that kind of sig.
    7. Re:Goverment not very advanced by putaro · · Score: 2, Interesting

      No aces up the sleeve. I used to work for a supercomputer manufacturer back in the late 80's. Supercomputers got run over by the "Attack of the Killer Micros" (as Eugene Miya used to say). You have to look at the amount of money that's being put into R&D.

      Intel is spending way more money (today) than any supercomputer manufacturer can possibly afford to. Back in the 80's it was possible (not easy, but possible) to wire up discrete components into fast processors. The Cray-1 had a 10ns clock - or 100 MHz. It's not possible to build a multi-GHz processor without having in a single chip. Designing and producing high-performance processors is extremely expensive and needs fairly large production runs to support the amount of R&D needed.

      So, modern supercomputer manufacturers are not making their own processors, etc. but instead concentrating on things like high-performance interconnects and other clever ways to harness large arrays of commodity processors. Any secret government projects that were outperforming Intel/AMD would have to be putting equivalent amounts of $$ (billions) into R&D and it's kind of hard to hide that much money flowing around.

    8. Re:Goverment not very advanced by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Any secret government projects that were outperforming Intel/AMD would have to be putting equivalent amounts of $$ (billions) into R&D and it's kind of hard to hide that much money flowing around.
      How very little you know...
    9. Re:Goverment not very advanced by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ASCI Red used enough electrical power (when you also consider the amount of cooling required) to power a small town.

  5. Reminds me of a story I was told by Raul654 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Dave Mills (inventor of NTP) told me that on the last Columbia shuttle mission, they were running some experiments with NTP in space. And, thankfully, they transmitted all their data before landing. But apparently, they were so overworked, they didn't have time to calibrate the machine properly, so sadly, the data is useless.

    --


    To make laws that man cannot, and will not obey, serves to bring all law into contempt.
    --E.C. Stanton
    1. Re:Reminds me of a story I was told by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hmmm, so you could say the whole thing was a waste of time?

    2. Re:Reminds me of a story I was told by wik · · Score: 4, Funny

      Pffft. Had they run been running NTP, they would have had the time.

      --
      / \
      \ / ASCII ribbon campaign for peace
      x
      / \
    3. Re:Reminds me of a story I was told by helioquake · · Score: 1

      That's why we rocket scientists always emphasize the importance of doing calibration as the FIRST thing in experiment...

      I'm actually curious to know what this NTP experiment was about.

    4. Re:Reminds me of a story I was told by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      "Dave Mills (inventor of NTP) told me that on the last Columbia shuttle mission, they were running some experiments with NTP in space. And, thankfully, they transmitted all their data before landing."

      You worded that strangely. Are you saying what it sounds like you're saying?

    5. Re:Reminds me of a story I was told by Raul654 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Well, Mills has been doing work lately to get NTP working with VERY high latency (on the order of hundreds of seconds), to facilitate communication with satellites on/orbitting Mars. (Remember - power conservation is absolutely critical in these circumstances, so you have to make sure the transmission timing is right). If I had to guess, this was probably related to that.

      --


      To make laws that man cannot, and will not obey, serves to bring all law into contempt.
      --E.C. Stanton
    6. Re:Reminds me of a story I was told by arcanis · · Score: 1

      Alas, this poor debacle of a project should probably have remained buried in the forgotten past of Evans Hall. Harry's work never really did amount to anything substantial, despite massive chewings out on the part of Dave!

    7. Re:Reminds me of a story I was told by Raul654 · · Score: 1

      John Conner? Is that you?

      --


      To make laws that man cannot, and will not obey, serves to bring all law into contempt.
      --E.C. Stanton
    8. Re:Reminds me of a story I was told by arcanis · · Score: 1

      Are you really asking if anyone's going to link their UID to a real name in a slashdot post?

    9. Re:Reminds me of a story I was told by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Sounds like that's exactly what they're asking... That, or it's a Terminator reference.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    10. Re:Reminds me of a story I was told by arcanis · · Score: 1

      When the machines come, NTP researchers are your only hope.

  6. Priorities by ravenspear · · Score: 4, Funny

    Cmdr Adama filling his battlestar with rotary phones and manual typewriters!

    Something tells me he should focus on adding a few more medics first.

    1. Re:Priorities by AtariAmarok · · Score: 2, Funny

      "Something tells me he should focus on adding a few more medics first." How about the medics of the Star Trek kind who can perform brain surgery and replace severed limbs with a few waves of a whistling chrome salt shaker?

      --
      Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
  7. Now show me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny
    ' and Cmdr Adama filling his battlestar with rotary phones and manual typewriters!) '

    That is still too high tech. Tell me what Cylon attack can defeat a coal-fired Battlestar carrying swarms of pedal-powered Vipers crewed with low-IQ Forrest Gump clones? You can't dare have genius level brains which can be commandeered by the Cylons.

  8. Ouch... by thegamerformelyknown · · Score: 4, Funny

    The first manned space flight had a computer on board to control re-entry, but it was basic in the extreme - and locked so Comrade Gagarin couldn't tamper with it. An envelope with the code to unlock the computer was hidden somewhere in the capsule, and should an emergency arise, ground control would tell him where it was. Nice.

    Sounds nasty. I would at LEAST want to have some QUICK way of getting to it.

    Like a hammer :).

    1. Re:Ouch... by fmobus · · Score: 1

      speacially if the emergency has something to do with the radio antenna where instructions from ground control were supposed to be recieved...

    2. Re:Ouch... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One by one, various engineers took Gagarin aside and whispered the combination to him.

    3. Re:Ouch... by Mr+HarVy · · Score: 1

      Now thats somthing they havent UP_DATED for a long time "the Hamer"

    4. Re:Ouch... by thegamerformelyknown · · Score: 1

      Something like "the Canoe" :)

    5. Re:Ouch... by thegamerformelyknown · · Score: 1

      And each one only knows part of the total. And no one knows in which order they go :)

    6. Re:Ouch... by Jozer99 · · Score: 1

      Radio waves travel at 2.98 x 10 ^ 8 meters per second. Figure he was 11 km max above the earth, and that is not a very long time to figure out how to operate the computer.

    7. Re:Ouch... by thegamerformelyknown · · Score: 1

      True, but to quote fmobus:
      speacially if the emergency has something to do with the radio antenna where instructions from ground control were supposed to be recieved...

    8. Re:Ouch... by minkie · · Score: 2, Funny

      There's an old joke about what the airplane cockpit of the future is going to look like. It's going to have a computer, a pilot, and a dog.

      The pilot is there to feed the dog.

      The dog is there to bite the pilot if he tries to touch the computer.

    9. Re:Ouch... by mrsev · · Score: 1

      well lets not forget that he was the FIRST man in space and they did not know how he would respond!

      Think SPAAAAAACEMAAAAADNESS

    10. Re:Ouch... by EpsCylonB · · Score: 1

      If the old pope was called john paul why isn't the new one called george ringo ?.

    11. Re:Ouch... by david+duncan+scott · · Score: 1
      Eleven klicks max? If all they needed was 36,000 feet he could have traveled on Aeroflot.

      The figure I came across in an exhaustive two-minute search was about 300 kilometers (although whether that's apogee, perigee, or average I don't know.)

      --

      This next song is very sad. Please clap along. -- Robin Zander

    12. Re:Ouch... by Jozer99 · · Score: 1

      Sorry, typo, I meant 110km.

  9. He missed something by NanoGator · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The basic gist of the article is "They don't use more than they really need". Unfortunately, this is not a complete answer.

    A company I used to work for discussed using some of their technology with Nasa. One of the things they told us was that they preferred processors a two or three years old because they were afraid of random bit-flippings caused by radiation etc.

    (Sadly, I wasn't in on this whole conversation, so I doubt I can effectively answer some of the questions that arise. For example, I'm not sure why the processors had to be a couple of years old. I assume it had to do with shielding or something, but I really don't know. If anybody has insight on this topic, I'd really really like to be enlightened.)

    --
    "Derp de derp."
    1. Re:He missed something by helioquake · · Score: 1

      It has something to do with the surface density of registers on chip. When using a high-performance chip, there are many more registers in the same area, leading to irrepairable string of bits.

    2. Re:He missed something by GileadGreene · · Score: 5, Informative
      It's not that NASA prefers processors a couple of years old. It's that NASA prefers processors which have been radiation-hardened, which makes them resistant to both single-event effects (bit flips) and to cumulative ionization-induced degradation (which gradually changes the threshold voltage of transistors due to charge build-up in gate oxides).

      Unfortunately, radiation hardening a processor involves altering the fabrication process (some processes - e.g. SOI - are more resistant to bit flips than others), inserting guard rings, adding self-checking logic, and a bunch of other changes. Doing all of this stuff takes time (and money) so space-ready processors typically lag COTS processors by a generation or two. Example: the current "hot new" rad-hard processor is the RAD750, which is a rad-hard version of the venerable PowerPC 750.

      Having said all of that, some small, risk-tolerant missions do use standard COTS processors (PowerPCs and StrongARMs are popular, as are industrial embedded processors like the Hitachi SuperH line). But you won't tend to find them in most NASA projects.

    3. Re:He missed something by Jozer99 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Radiation in space is usually not high enough to cause extensive phyiscal damage to processors in the short term. However, some kinds of radiation can cause random electrical noise on the processor, screwing up calculations. The larger the components, and the fewer of them there are, the less likely this is to happen. Of course, like all government agencies, NASA is very cautious about waiting to see how well components work. This is one of the reasons cell phones are not allowed on airplanes, the FAA has taken 10 years "just to be sure" nothing bad could happen. Also, NASA tends to use "hardened" processors, which have special shielding, as well as a mesh of wire that helps ground random electrical noise. These processors have to be specially designed and made by manufacturers based on existing designs, then rigorously tested by the company and NASA. Even if they start with a cutting edge design, by the time it is NASA tested and certified it is several years old and several generations out of date.

    4. Re:He missed something by Mazem · · Score: 1

      A company I used to work for discussed using some of their technology with Nasa. One of the things they told us was that they preferred processors a two or three years old because they were afraid of random bit-flippings caused by radiation etc.

      That can't be the whole reason, otherwise they could just get modern parts and use up some of those spare cycles and memory to implement more redundancy and error-correcting codes. Surely that would be a far better safeguard against random bit-flip than using old technology. I suspect other factors play a more significant role.

    5. Re:He missed something by GileadGreene · · Score: 2, Informative
      Actually, there has been some research into using "software implemented hardware fault tolerance" (SIHFT) to guard against the effects of bits flips. There's a research group at Stanford that's done a lot of work with SIHFT, and even flew a test processor on the ARGOS satellite. In addition to error-correcting codes on memory (which is standard on most spacecraft anyway) they also use two techniques to ensure that executing software is not corrupted: Control Flow Checking by Software Signatures (CFCSS), and Error Detection through Duplicated Instructions (EDDI). CFCSS involves precomputing signatures for each major block in the control flow during compilation, and then regenerating and checking those signatures at runtime to ensure that a bit-flip hasn't caused a spurious branch. EDDI inserts shadow instructions into each block, so that each computation gets performed twice, and the results are cross-checked before the next block of instructions is executed.

      As I pointed out in another comment in this thread, it's not that NASA wants old processors. They want processors that are hardended to radiation, and the reengineering required for hardening causes rad-hard processors to lag commercial processors by a generation or two. Both EDDI and CFCSS work fairly well (~97% error recovery rate IIRC), but not as well as having a rad-hardened processor (> 99% error recovery rate). In addition, SIHFT can't do much to protect you from ionization-induced degradation, which causes cumulative damage to a processor that eventually causes it to stop functioning: rad-hard processors are far less susceptible to damage caused by ionizing dose.

    6. Re:He missed something by Mazem · · Score: 1

      Thanks for that post. That makes sense except for one thing - why would rad-hardened processors have a better error recovery rate? Since they are rad-hardened, the overall error rate would be much much less, but how would that improve the recovery rate when an error occurs?

    7. Re:He missed something by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's more important that the components are big than few.

      The smaller you make a processor, the lower you have to make signal voltages. The lower you make the voltage, the larger the chance that thermal noise or radiation will corrupt data.

    8. Re:He missed something by johneee · · Score: 1

      From what I know, which isn't much, a lot of the reseoning around it is simply the amount of time put in to validation of the systems. If they spend 5 years to validate a system to work in a particular mission, then every system is going to be at least 5 years old. Then when you've done that, you really don't want to do it again when what you have works just fine.

      --
      - ------- There are ten kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who... Huh?
    9. Re:He missed something by GileadGreene · · Score: 1
      Oops. Sorry 'bout that. Meant to say >99% probability of successful execution. You're right - recovery rate makes little sense in a fault-prevention scenario.

      Incidentally, aside from SIHFT. the other way to fly COTS processors in space is to apply triple-redundancy, and to operate the processors in a lock-step majority voting configuration (a good example is the Maxwell SCS750). This is also more robust to bit-flips than SIHFT (although it ends up costing more in terms of power and hardware complexity). Still not robust to ionizing dose though :(

      The good news is the modern fabrication processes actually seem to be moving towards things that are robust to ionizing dose (e.g. SOI, greater gate-oxide purity) for their own reasons. So operating a COTS processor in space then just becomes a case of dealing with single-event effects.

    10. Re:He missed something by plusser · · Score: 1

      As someone whom works in the aerospace industry working on engine controllers for mainly commercial jet engines (such as Rolls Royce RB211 and Trent), we have to take similar precautions to protect against atmospheric radiation, yet at the same time we need to keep out costs down. Currently we have our own microprocessors built as ASICs, which are based on a PowerPC core. Even then we have to be very careful with the design of the SRAM embedded in these designs, as they are the element most at risk from single event upset. My former manager is a world class expert in this field, and now works very closely with the likes of Boeing and Airbus on this matter

      The aerospace industry is now very small in comparison to the consumer electronics, where the big money is deemed to be. Modern commercial components are designed for a fairly short life at room temperature (10 years at room temperature), and do not see vibration, temperature and radiation extremes that would be seen in our application. Using a faraday cage doesn't work either, as the radiation is not dissipated in the same manner as radio frequencies (this isn't an EMC problem). As mentioned elsewhere in this thread the only way forward is to design the silicon to withstand the radiation requirements.

      Next time you take your standard laptop on a plane, and it crashes during the flight, please remember in this case it might not be the software's fault; it might be the hardware has been affected by a radiation event, especially if there is sunspot activity. This might be a minor irritation to you, be would not be acceptable if it caused an engine surge.

  10. Solid state recorder on board the Hubble by helioquake · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Just like Cassini, the Hubble also has on-board solid state recorder (installed during one of the servicing missions), which replaced an old tape recorder. This has been really a nice addition as we can store more data into the solid state device while collecting data bits and dump them when the downlink becomes available. It really helps increase the efficiency of the satellite (and that's a big thing for science mission).

    [Note that I've simplified the scheme alot here.]

    Though several sections of the device have been damaged by radiation, or something, I hear. So even these things aren't too resilent to the harsh space environment, yet. Something you future engineers should think about as a project.

    1. Re:Solid state recorder on board the Hubble by FuturePastNow · · Score: 1

      The article made me wonder what the attrition rate is for the laptops astronauts take with them. Have any of them been damaged while in space? Granted, most of them have only been up there for a short time, but a few have probably spent years on the ISS. Does NASA have any figures?

      --
      Give a man fire, and you warm him for the night. Set a man on fire, and you warm him for the rest of his life.
  11. Thats it! by meatflower · · Score: 0

    From the article:
    I've yet to discover any spacecraft that employs AMD hardware...
    Thats it! Thats why Dell won't switch, obviously their customers cannot use hardware not fit for spacecraft.

  12. Environmental lessons by Hao+Wu · · Score: 1
    Thus far it seems much space flight relies heavily on chemical processes, which create some amount of polution.

    If some smart application of physical processes were developed instead - something based on a large and almost limitless power supply - would this not only benefit space endurance but also earth's environment, by reducing the need for harmful chemical production?

    --
    I suggest you read Slashdot
  13. RCA's "COSMAC" CDP1802 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Anybody remember RCA's CDP1802, the weird little CMOS RISC-ish 8-bitter used in Voyager, Viking, and Galileo? These things have been running for decades, despite the radiation they've been subjected to.

    Now that's engineering!

    1. Re:RCA's "COSMAC" CDP1802 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem is that these days, "engineers" are people who flipped a coin after high school, not true nerds.

    2. Re:RCA's "COSMAC" CDP1802 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Yes I love that proc. I don't recall the top speed, but it would run reliably all the way down to DC. I always thought that was cool.

      I had great fun learning to program assembly on an 1802 based ELF computer...

  14. why do disks not work in a vacuum? by whoever57 · · Score: 1

    And why is this relevent? Isn't there atmosphere inside all manned spacecraft?

    --
    The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    1. Re:why do disks not work in a vacuum? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well manned spacecraft are not the most common space crafts around. In fact they are kinda rare. There is by far more satalites then space shuttles and space stations. So it is pretty relevent.

    2. Re:why do disks not work in a vacuum? by vargasmas · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Not necesarily. If people don't have to be in a particular part of the spacecraft, why waste air having atmosphere?

    3. Re:why do disks not work in a vacuum? by Neil+Blender · · Score: 1

      why do disks not work in a vacuum

      Drives need atmosphere to work. I think it has something to do with the heads. Also, they could not be cooled, but I don't think that is the main issue.

    4. Re:why do disks not work in a vacuum? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      fucking links. meant to reply to gp.

      NB

    5. Re:why do disks not work in a vacuum? by GileadGreene · · Score: 1

      Disks work just fine in space (although they do need to be ruggedized a little). See for example the General Dynamics (nee Spectrum Astro) Space-Qualified RAID. Note that these are meant for use on unmanned spacecraft.

    6. Re:why do disks not work in a vacuum? by YankeeInExile · · Score: 2, Informative

      While I could easily imagine designing a disk that could work in space, you can not pull the old ST41201J out of your box and launch it into space. The flying head effect requires an atmosphere between the surface of the disk and the head. Stock disks have a vent (wiht a filter similar to that of a filter-tip cigarette), such that exposed to vacuum, the heads would crash.

      Even manned aircraft might experience low atmospheric pressure (or even total vacuum) from time to time -- I guess they could pack a pressurized "space suit" enclosure for the computer .... quick -- get to work and make a mint.

      --
      How does the Slashdot Effect happen given that no slashdotters ever RTFA?
    7. Re:why do disks not work in a vacuum? by Detritus · · Score: 1

      You'll probably have cooling problems, due to lack of convection. Low air pressure can also cause problems with cooling and head crashes. Vibration from the launch can also destroy delicate hardware, or make it malfunction.

      --
      Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
    8. Re:why do disks not work in a vacuum? by AKAImBatman · · Score: 2, Informative

      Drives need atmosphere to work. I think it has something to do with the heads

      The head floats on a molecule thick cushion of air. While it needs that air to prevent the head from smashing into the drive platter, I think that modern drives are completely sealed. Thus they have their own atmosphere and don't need to be exposed to nasty particles and bacteria that could cause drive crashes. (Or vacuum for that matter.)

      Also, they could not be cooled, but I don't think that is the main issue.

      Cooling is provided by the surface area of the drive. Heat is transmitted through the metal case and radiated away. In space this is slightly more problematic as there are no cool particles to help radiate the heat away. That means that the heat will have to be lost through inefficient infrared coversion.

      I'm sure that others can provide a few more details.

    9. Re:why do disks not work in a vacuum? by marvinglenn · · Score: 2, Informative
      And why is this relevent? Isn't there atmosphere inside all manned spacecraft?

      Per experience working for a NASA subcontractor making (non-critical) instrumentation...

      The pressure the craft is operated at is less than standard sea level air pressure. (I don't know how much less.) It was, though, so much less that the hard drives sent up (on the project I worked on) were failing due to the lack of air for the Bernoulli effect (the pnenomena that holds the heads up when the drive spins), along with not enough air for cooling. We moved to Flash memory, which had just come out at that time.

      The heat from hard drives is another significant factor (from TFA).

      --
      The whores get mad when the sluts give it away for free.
    10. Re:why do disks not work in a vacuum? by cyclone96 · · Score: 5, Informative

      I work for NASA on the manned programs and my experience is that hard drives are a headache on long term space missions.

      The laptops onboard Space Station are primarily IBM laptops (many of which will soon be running Linux - yeah!). While the drives are easy to replace, they fail fairly often (compared to other space hardware) and new ones need to be launched. The software on the drives also becomes corrupted frequently (maybe once every few weeks), requiring the crew to waste time recopying the software from CD. While these COTS laptops and hard drives were cheap up front (almost zero development cost, custom stuff would have been tens of millions of dollars) we are paying for it now because we waste a lot of operational time fixing them.

      The Honeywell Command and Control computers (the primary flight computers onboard, which are triple redundant and manages core systems in the US segment) used to have a 300 megabyte hard drive to store flight software.

      In 2001 during a shuttle mission, hard drive problems caused ALL THREE of those computers to crash simultaneously in a massive cascading failure. While it never got a lot of press, recovering from that took several days and an effort reminiscent of Apollo 13. You can read a contemporary article on it here: http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/launches/soyu z_iss_010427.html

      When we got the things back and did a post-mortem, it turned out that the hard drive had a design flaw where the arm was dragging across the disk during power down and scratching it, which eventually led to failure.

      They were replaced with solid state units shortly thereafter (which were already in the development pipeline). No moving parts, and much less problematic.

      --
      Worst...sig...ever!
    11. Re:why do disks not work in a vacuum? by cyclone96 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Ironically enough, after I wrote this I checked in with work. They were busy working with the crew restoring a crashed file server onboard that is used for non-critical stuff like email and digital photos.

      What happened? Corrupted hard drive.

      --
      Worst...sig...ever!
    12. Re:why do disks not work in a vacuum? by Kiryat+Malachi · · Score: 1

      Both Shuttle and ISS operate at 14.7 PSI in crew areas, actually. This is roughly average air pressure at sea level. Your contractor was completely wrong on this.

      However, non-crew areas are not necessarily maintained at 14.7, and since convection doesn't operate, heat is a much more likely issue.

      --

      ---
      Mod me down, you fucking twits. Go ahead. I dare you.
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    13. Re:why do disks not work in a vacuum? by ltbarcly · · Score: 0, Troll

      Hard drives do not utilize the Bernoulli effect. This is a common misconception. There were removable disk drives which used the effect a while back, but they are no longer made. I'm glad that NASA contractors have basic understanding of how a hard drive works. "It doesn't take a rocket scientist to be a rocket scientist." --KSR

      Thank you for your ass backward money wasting service to our country.

    14. Re:why do disks not work in a vacuum? by Cyno · · Score: 1

      Have you considering using optical media or flash? A DVD, or example, could store the OS, apps and data for a limited set of tasks and be rewritable.

      Personally I would have something like a solid state or optical disk filesystem shared over wireless. A bunch of RAM in those laptops, 1+GB, to run the OS out of a ramdisk and use DVDRW media to store the OS and local data. Maybe flash cards or something for portable media.

      But I wouldn't know what might work well in space.

    15. Re:why do disks not work in a vacuum? by Teancum · · Score: 1

      This is interesting, and I'd like to see a little more information about this.

      First of all, you certainly don't want to have sea-level pressure of oxygen in any environment. This is precisely what caused the problem for the Apollo I spacecraft that killed three astronauts on the launchpad due to fire. If that much oxygen were in space you would have a hard time keeping things from simply erupting into flame spontaneously. In addition, your lungs only need a partial-pressure of oxygen equal to the altitude that you are normally used to (let's say sea-level pressure for now).

      And don't tell me that the remainder of the atmospheric pressure in the ISS is CO2. That would also be toxic, and is precisely the reason why there was so much panic during Apollo XIII. Your body can only tolerate so much CO2 before you pass out, even if there is plenty of oxygen. This problem can be partially compensated by a higher oxygen content, but that will only go so far as explained above.

      The air that you normally breath is also composed of a large amount of nitrogen. This makes up almost 80% of ground-level air. While useful for many application, and needed by plants and nitrogen fixing bacteria, this is not normally something that is a critical chemical or gas used for life support in space, except for what is found in protien bars and chicken dinners. Humans can survive indefinitely without breathing nitrogen, so why bring it up? Weight is so critical in spaceflight that I can't imagine why inert gasses (Nitrogen and Argon) would be used unless specifically a part of a science experiment that called specifically for those gasses to be used.

      While I will admit that while on the ground the Shuttle uses a cabin at sea-level pressures, I just can't see how it would be justified to bring up all that extra "stuff" in the form of compressed air when all you need is some liquid oxygen to make a viable environment for the astronauts.

      Of course, I may be wrong about this, and there may be some convective heat reasons to add the extra gasses into the environment, but it seems silly. I know the Apollo spacecraft only used the partial pressure of oxygen except during launch and landing.

    16. Re:why do disks not work in a vacuum? by marvinglenn · · Score: 1

      Replace Bernoulli effect with another physics term (that escapes me right now) whereas one surface in motion drags along air with it. Maybe it was the skin effect.

      --
      The whores get mad when the sluts give it away for free.
    17. Re:why do disks not work in a vacuum? by Kiryat+Malachi · · Score: 1

      Apollo was different. As you said, Apollo used a much lower working pressure, with a higher proportion of O2 to yield a normal O2 partial pressure. However, both ISS and Shuttle use sea-level normal atmospheric pressure.

      References:

      Indian newspaper, gives pressure in mmHg.
      Random science site, gives pressure in psi.
      Space.com article about the pressure leak that was experienced last year, gives the pressure in psi.

      You're wrong, sorry. ISS and Shuttle use an oxy/nitro mix at full atmospheric pressure; not being a biomed person, I can't give you a good answer as to why, but I can confirm (both from publicly available information and personal experience working on Shuttle) that this is true.

      --

      ---
      Mod me down, you fucking twits. Go ahead. I dare you.
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    18. Re:why do disks not work in a vacuum? by Teancum · · Score: 1
      I did a little more "research" on the subject, and it appears as though yes, the Shuttle and the ISS do use sea-level atmosphereic pressure.

      I would like to know why, however. This seems a little bit bizzare to me, and a huge waste of energy to loft up nitrogen. And it also seems to complicate EVA's, where apparently they do reduce gas pressures in spacesuits to only O2 partial pressures, which results in astronauts having to go through a decompression step to remove the nitrogen from their blood. In other words, an astronaut can't simply put on the suit in an emergency and hop outside in a hurry... it has to be a deliberate act and takes hours just to prepare for.

      The supposed reason for this is two-fold:
      • Fire Retardant - the nitrogen acts as a barrier to help lower the potential for fires to break out.
      • Equipment Coolant - just like here on the earth, electronic equipment needs to cool down, and air cooled equipment doesn't have to be redesigned for lower air pressures if they are operated in a shuttle


      Frankly, I think these are covers for something else, or just sloppy engineering on the part of the NASA contractors building the equipment for the shuttles. It is probabally more along the lines of the fact that some piece of equipment started to fail when tested in the vacuum chambers that NASA has, so some bureacratic decision back elsewhen during the design of the shuttle was to add the few pounds of nitrogen to compensate for what would be at the time a few million dollars of cost overruns on the shuttle. Typical of the entire shuttle program, and reminds me of some engineering decisions I've been unfortunately involved with myself.

      Since the ISS is never intended to be a stepping stone to other space activities (like going to the moon), they just don't care. I guarentee that any settlement on the moon is going to have little to no nitrogen at first.
    19. Re:why do disks not work in a vacuum? by Kiryat+Malachi · · Score: 1

      Well, here's a counterpoint.

      The weight of the nitrogen partial pressure is relatively insignificant, especially as it neither has to be replenished (beyond leakage losses, which are minor) nor recycled like the O2-CO2 loop. Remember that the total weight of nitrogen on the ISS is roughly 380 kg (75% by weight of air, 425 cubic meters habitable volume, 1.2 kg/m^3 is the weight of dry sea level air) which is simply not that much to worry about in terms of differential launch costs when you compare it to the costs of redesigning large amounts of electrical/electronic equipment.

      The Russians already have, and NASA are working on, EVA suits with a high enough pressurization to reduce the current rigorous pre-breathe to 30 minutes, by the way. I think NASA has also worked on experimental suits designed to eliminate pre-breathe altogether (I see contrasting numbers for whether a .56 bar suit requires pre-breathe - astronautix claims it should not, while other sources claim it does. You make the call.)

      I'll be surprised if most settlements aren't run at sea-level, actually. There is significant biomedical evidence showing that humans living in atmospheres similar to the Apollo/Gemini lowered pressure, full partial pressure, atmosphere suffer adverse medical effects ranging from nuisance effects like eye/ear/noise irritation to potentially significant issues like a time-related decrease in red blood cell mass (Richardson et al., 1972), though that has subsequently (Skylab era) been found to be self-regulating, though still worrisome. Some info on this can be found at one of NASA's history sites here. This publication analyzing biomedical effects of spaceflight offers some other reasons, including toxic oxidation byproducts, against a pure oxygen atmosphere.

      Considering the benefits (using standard electrical/electronic components, a more normal biomedical environment) as compared to the downsides (minor one-time weight increase, pre-breathing which is likely to be eliminated with the next generation of pressure suits), I suspect future colonies will be sea-level atmosphere.

      --

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  15. They could take a lesson from audio engineers. by Future+Man+3000 · · Score: 3, Interesting
    I've heard that the type of computer equipment they use in studio is also of interest to space hardware designers (or maybe vice versa) -- they work towards reducing interference with other studio equipment (mostly power spikes; use solid state storage instead of hard drives, shield everything, work towards smooth power transistions at startup/shutdown).

    They need more performance than space equipment, and space equipment has power concerns that studio equipment does not, so the equation balances.

    --

    I never vote for anyone. I always vote against.
    -- W.C. Fields

    1. Re:They could take a lesson from audio engineers. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Oh yeah, that'll be a riot. These are the same idiots who think that different CD-Rs, even from the same batch, sound different.

      Imagine the meetings with NASA... Well, yes, Mr. Astronaut, this CD sounds more open and airy, but that one sounds more grainy and harsh in the higher mids...

    2. Re:They could take a lesson from audio engineers. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In space one uses what is called 'opto-isolation'.

      Very typically there will be multiple power systems. And they do not tie the grounds together.

      In space, where there is a vaccuum, items with different charges are much more likely to have sparks flying between them. Also computers typically run at 5 V, or better 3 V, with maybe a 12 V supply too for other things. Some of our experiments were langmiere probes that would run at tens of thousands of volts.

      In a studio they also use optoisolation. But gronding is easy because they have the Earth to ground to.

      Also in space older and proven technology is always perfered over bleeding edge stuff.
      We used to run 8080 chips which at the time were already very old. There is no way we could have run the cutting edge chips of the day because they were still too propriatory.

  16. astronauts use winamp in space by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting
    1. Re:astronauts use winamp in space by MaTriXxx1 · · Score: 1

      QUICK!! someone contact the RIAA so they can arrest those monsters when they land!!! they are stealing food out of the childrens mouths of artists. Drop all the murder n rape cases, and go after the real villians... those nasty nasty file swappers!!

      --
      Do NOT goto this URL http://www.forthesims.com
  17. You may be onto something by AtariAmarok · · Score: 4, Funny
    "If some smart application of physical processes were developed instead - something based on a large and almost limitless power supply"

    You may be onto something. The most limitless energy supply I can think of is found in my spam box right now. The Space Elevator can be made a reality, perhaps, with the propery application of zillions of doses of "lengthening enhancer"? Could the "energy boost" of the illicit HGH herb be applied to rocket thrust? Not only that, I think I can fund my own NASA if I answer every single one of the thousands of Nigerian princes who have been begging me to let them give me millions.

    --
    Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
    1. Re:You may be onto something by Manitcor · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      this got a score 4 intresting? do mods even read what people post?

      Wait, I keep forgetting what site I am on..

      --
      "Don't mess with him, he taunts the happy fun ball."
  18. About bit flip by DigiShaman · · Score: 4, Informative

    Because of the density of memory now-day, bit-flipping is becomming a real problem for home PCs and workstations running with an uptime of over a week. Bit-flipping happens all the time and even on your PC. It just may be happening in a region of the wafer that does not currenly have anything important addressed to it...hence not an issue. But someplace, somewhere, a slashdot reader is getting a bitflip causing data-rott once it's commited to the harddrive. By the way, these bit-flips are causes cosmic rays.

    If you serious about data integrity and stability, you would be foolish not to use ECC. You may take a 5% performace hit, but it's best to get used to it. If you need that extra 5%, then upgrade your processor to make up for it.

    --
    Life is not for the lazy.
    1. Re:About bit flip by helioquake · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yep, that's right. I've been using CCDs at a ground level for long, seeing CRs zapping through a tiny detector in a short integration time (a few seconds). We are also surrounded by mildly radioactive materials (some paint, rocks, etc), which can cause radiation damage as well.

      And surely that's part of the reason that I always buy ECC RAMS for mission critical stuffs.

    2. Re:About bit flip by Mondoz · · Score: 2, Interesting

      On board the International Space Station, they run programs checking for bit flips.
      Single Event Upsets happen occasionally, but it's difficult to tell if they're associated with actual hardware failures or just if they're just coincidental.

      They have 2 networks of IMS A-31P laptops for Command & Control of the station (PCS) and another network for situation awareness, procedure viewing, inventory tracking, Office tools (Word, email, etc...) and a few other uses.
      They're not completely COTS laptops - they've been modified somewhat for radiation and cooling purposes (convection cooling doesn't work in microgravity) but they're pretty close to what you'd buy on Earth.

      The printers, on the other hand, have some really cool attachments for the paper input & output trays to keep the paper from floating off... but that's another topic.

      --
      /sig
    3. Re:About bit flip by quarkscat · · Score: 1

      ECC memory is great at detecting and correcting single bit errors, but fails when it comes to correcting multiple bit errors. There was a technique one of my college instructors discussed called Huffman Encoding that could be used to correct a number of bit errors. While it is a robust technique, it would consume 75% of data storage for the correction bits.

      BTW, does anyone out there have info on any modern hardware adaptations of Huffman Encoding?

    4. Re:About bit flip by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      it would consume 75% of data storage for the correction bits.

      This is completely incorrect.

    5. Re:About bit flip by Mr.+Memblers · · Score: 1

      Are you thinking of Hamming codes? That's a type of error-correction.

      Huffman encoding just makes me think of compression, unless it's another thing I haven't heard of before (likely).

    6. Re:About bit flip by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      What you are talking about is used for encryption and or compression: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huffman_coding

      ECC probably uses other mechanisms: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Error-correcting_code

      Hamming code is a very well known example, the number of bits that can be corrected with it is dependant on the number of correction bit used. Wikipedia hasn't got a very good explanation of the hamming code and I wasn't able to find one quickly, but if you want to know use google.

    7. Re:About bit flip by geremy · · Score: 1

      The most common form of EDAC (Error Detection and Correction) is SECDED (single bit error correction double bit error detection). SuperEDAC (with double bit correction) also is becoming mainstream now that memory density is going up. I believe both implementations use an extra 8 bits for every 32-bit word.

      --
      geremy
    8. Re:About bit flip by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      > > Bit-flipping happens all the time and even on your PC.
      >
      > > Bullshjt!

      You're not that unlucky. I call bullshht!

  19. Re:Engineering by __aadhrk6380 · · Score: 1

    Sounds to me more like it is an opportunity for a niche market of companies to fabricate equipment designed to work in space.

    With low to no gravity and a high potential for various solar interferences, you need some seriously ruggedized components in order to work. With the amazing success of the Ansari X Prize, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see a few companies take a stab at making spaceworthy computing components.

    To me, it seems like quite a few past innovations from the government have been generated as a direct result of wars. WWII, Viet Nam, the first and second Gulf Wars, all have contributed to tech. All we have to show for space related issues are SDI, which doesn't really seem to (a) exist or (b), have contributed anything to the common core of technology.

    I am hopeful that the commercialization of space flight will add to our technological advances in (ahem) interstellar computing. The loop is open now to the best and brightest. Let's see what they've got

    After all, if an alien civilization captures one of our orbital vehicles and comes to the conclusion that Pong and limited space flights are the height of our technology, we're screwed.

  20. In Future... by i_will_frag_u_all · · Score: 1, Interesting

    I'm wondering if more powerful computers will ever get up there. As the article states, computing power is minimally needed. Will the space industry ever be able to take higher-powered computers into space? This brings forward the question that if high-powered computers can never get off the planet, how will the future space industry be impacted by that?

    1. Re:In Future... by AtariAmarok · · Score: 1
      "I'm wondering if more powerful computers will ever get up there"

      One word: Skynet.

      --
      Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
    2. Re:In Future... by olafva · · Score: 3, Informative

      See Rover FPGAs and RSC.
      Future NASA space computers may not look like what most expect.

      --
      What's past is NOT ALWAYS prologue for the future!
    3. Re:In Future... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why do you need the processing power in space?
      Unless the craft is very far away from the Earth there is no need for high-powered computers in space because the computations can be done on Eartth and then networked up into space.

  21. Re:Engineering by GileadGreene · · Score: 3, Insightful

    There already are a number of companies working the "niche market". The problem is that the market is relatively small, and the costs are high. Hopefully the advent of commercial spaceflight will bring launch costs down enough that more people will launch, and the space market will expand significantly.

  22. Old tech updated? by rjhall · · Score: 5, Informative

    Some 9 years ago I worked on some chip design for Hughes and ESA.

    Back then, we used 1.2um on 4" (or 6" in the new fab) wafers - and everything was built on a sapphire substrate instead of a silicon substrate to make them radiation hard (when they went through the van allen belt).

    It was dull, as every single chip had about 12 inches of paperwork from QA. Every *instance* of every chip had its own paperwork, I mean. It was also dull because they wanted tried and tested tech, not any of this new fangled sub-micron stuff.

    That was then. Can anyone let me know how much things have changed?

    1. Re:Old tech updated? by geremy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The first 8" wafer line of Honeywell's SOI VII HX5000 0.15 micron will be officially opened by the end of the month.

      --
      geremy
    2. Re:Old tech updated? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is this a TSMC process with a few extra mask steps or is this a pure Honeywell process (truckload of wafers go in fab, 2 good die come out of fab)?

    3. Re:Old tech updated? by F00F · · Score: 4, Informative

      > Some 9 years ago I worked on some chip design for Hughes

      I work at what's left of one of the old Hughes Space & Comm. digital ASIC groups, with several of the old(er) Hughes Radar fellas.

      > Back then, we used 1.2um on 4" (or 6" in the new fab) wafers -
      > and everything was built on a sapphire substrate instead of a silicon substrate...


      SOS is much less prevalent today. My first design was quarter micron Si CMOS, and many new designs are tenth and sub-tenth micron. It's becoming more difficult to convince foundries to perform space-qualified work. Thinner gate oxides, rising leakage current, clock distribution power dissipation, and shrinking feature sizes in libraries are making good standard cell ASIC development for the space environment more difficult, and the full custom stuff is pricier. Modern COTS hardware is having a more and more difficult time meeting satisfactory (particularly end-of-life) performance requirements. And, to boot, obsolescence issues are continuing to rear their ugly heads. Technology qualification is getting more expensive every year, and the spaceborne commercial telecom market was ravaged by overcapacity.

      To top it off, the hardest part is actually finding people who can write rugged, professional, reliable code (and test plans, and device specifications, and interface documents, and...) day after day.

      > It was dull, as every single chip had about 12 inches of paperwork from QA.
      > That was then. Can anyone let me know how much things have changed?


      Yeah -- we're up to about 50 inches.

    4. Re:Old tech updated? by geremy · · Score: 1

      Pure Honeywell. They yield fairly well nowadays.

      --
      geremy
    5. Re:Old tech updated? by brunns · · Score: 1

      > Yeah -- we're up to about 50 inches.

      Sure that's not 50cm?

      --

      If you moderate me down I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.
  23. What the hell?! by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

    What the hell are all those little random dots? Is that from cosmic radiation pelting the CCD wafter on the digital camara?

    --
    Life is not for the lazy.
    1. Re:What the hell?! by HoneyBunchesOfGoats · · Score: 1

      Yeah, probably.

    2. Re:What the hell?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, yes. that is most likely what they are. You can see the same effect with a bit of americanium or uranium next to a CCD or phosphor screen.

  24. Re:This is really nit-picky... by ditto999999999999999 · · Score: 1

    There seems to be a fad occuring in journalism that makes it cool to use slang and be insulting to the reader. Maxim is one thing, but when I read this and some of the other recent articles discussing some mostly obscure application of computers I don't feel the need to be insulted because I didn't know. They are like "You thought blah blah blah... but this isn't your standard this or that." Ah well, that seems to be the way amateur hobbiest discourse is heading.

  25. GPC vs. embedded by fermion · · Score: 4, Interesting
    I think what most people miss is that the devices in space craft, hell even most cars, and not general purpose computers(GPC), have no need to be GPCs, and should not be GPCs. A GPC, quite frankly, is jack of all trades. Designed to do everything adequately, nothing well, and is a single point of failure. It might be over-designed to do a few things well, but then it costs more.

    An embedded machine, OTOH, is designed to do one, or a very small range of things, very well, very reliably, and very efficiently. I have had the fortune of working on two space based projects. In the first we used a single board Z80 based space hardened 'computer' to control a simple set of devices. It stored the ASM code in an EEPROM. It was more complex than we needed, as it was a standard issue unit, but much simpler than the Apple ][ we used as the GPC.

    On the second project, 10 years later, we were not using incredible different machines on the satellite, though the GPC was now a Wintel machines with 100X the memory and speed. But when your main concern is that things just have to work, processor speed and OS wars have little meaning.

    So these stories about how underpowered and behind the times embedded systems are just annoys me. It is just like continuous burns on SciFi shows(kudos to Babylon 5). Perhaps meaningless power is important to the ignorant masses, but we on /. are supposed to know better. I was using a tape drive until at least '87, just because It Worked.

    --
    "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
    1. Re:GPC vs. embedded by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It makes sense not to use a general purpose microprocessor for a washing machine, or a car, but that's because you have high, high volume which justifies designing a special purpose chip. For many lower volume applications, leveraging a GPC is entirely appropriate, and the reduction in functionality that you're not going to use actually ends up being a net negative. Of course, for space flight, they do design custom chips, but that's because they're also throwing lots of money at all aspects of the design.

  26. Why the code was hidden... by JimBobJoe · · Score: 2, Informative

    Unmentioned in the article is why the unlock code was hidden from him.

    The Soviets were afraid of a defection, which would be possible if he could run the navigation system himself.

    1. Re:Why the code was hidden... by thegamerformelyknown · · Score: 1

      Or they just sent up some dumb expendable grunt.

      But who knows....

    2. Re:Why the code was hidden... by shawnce · · Score: 1

      They likely could careless about the "grunt" (some political PR concerns) but cared much more about the capsule falling into US hands.

    3. Re:Why the code was hidden... by mazarin5 · · Score: 4, Funny
      should an emergency arise, ground control would tell him where it was. Nice.

      The Soviets were afraid of a defection

      If I was hurtling towards the ground and couldn't control the capsule I was in, I might have a problem with defecation too.

      --
      Fnord.
    4. Re:Why the code was hidden... by Naito · · Score: 1

      he shoulda smuggled away a bobby pin or something (see Airplane II)

  27. HDs use gas bearings by redelm · · Score: 3, Informative
    The heads of modern HDs are riding on gas(air) bearings to keep them a controlled distance from the mdia platters. In a vaccum (the cases cannot hold 15 psi and would leak out) the heads would be scratching the media.

  28. Tape?!?! by Jozer99 · · Score: 1

    Is it just me, or does using tape storage seem horribly unreliable. I have some bad memories of backing up my 486SX's gargantuan 540 MB hard drive onto 100MB tapes. The process often took 2-3 days, because about 50% of the time, writing to tape would fail, necessitating starting the whole tape over again. How could tape be reliable enough to run space probes and other things that handle huge temperature extremes and tons of radiation?

    1. Re:Tape?!?! by Planesdragon · · Score: 2, Funny

      It's just you.

      Or, more specifically, it's the crappy tape drive you used for backup.

    2. Re:Tape?!?! by bluGill · · Score: 4, Interesting

      They are not useing the junk tape drives that you were using, but quality stuff. Mainframes have always put most of their data on tapes drives, and they rarely have problems.

      Course a mainframe tape drive can cost $30,000 each, (not counting the robots that load them) so you can see why home users don't get that quality.

    3. Re:Tape?!?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Tape storage isn't horribly unreliable as consumer grade equipment would lead you to believe, but it's certainly not as good as some of the other posters would lead you to believe. Tapes break, wear out, etc., just like any other mechanical device. The main advantage of tapes is that you can drop them and the heads don't crash. :) Solid state storage, once it's sufficiently well-tested to be trustworthy for space apps, will replace tape for all future applications.

    4. Re:Tape?!?! by zakezuke · · Score: 1

      Is it just me, or does using tape storage seem horribly unreliable. I have some bad memories of backing up my 486SX's gargantuan 540 MB hard drive onto 100MB tapes. The process often took 2-3 days, because about 50% of the time, writing to tape would fail, necessitating starting the whole tape over again

      The problem I had on 486 vintage tape drives wasn't so much the drive or media. Software and hardware left much to be desired. What you bought typically came with software that was non too interoperable with other drives or controllers. You were almost always dependent on what the drive came with, and any bug fixes you had to fetch your self... via dialup modem to their private BBS which may or may not be listed anywhere you can find. Worse yet, IRQ 5... manuals consistently recommended that you set everything IRQ for anything non standard which included SCSI controllers, tape drive controllers(i.e. ISA qic-02 / qic-36), and sound cards. Not a big issue on dos machines that typically only accessed one device at a given time, but it was jerry-rigged nonsense that would defiantly fail if you were running win3.1 (ding starting backup, ding can't find controller). You could have avoided all this and went with a floppy controller on your tape drive, but this wasn't without problems either.

      --
      There is no sanctuary. There is no sanctuary. SHUT UP! There is no shut up. There is no shut up.
    5. Re:Tape?!?! by mikelieman · · Score: 1

      The problem I had on 486 vintage tape drives wasn't so much the drive or media.



      A SCSI Controller, DAT or QIC drive, a copy of Lone-tar, and a bunch of tapes.

      Aside from needing to spend some money, what's the problem?

      --
      Technology -- No Place For Wimps! Grateful Dead and Jerry Garcia Chatroom -- http://www.wemissjerry.org
    6. Re:Tape?!?! by corngrower · · Score: 1

      Sounds familiar. I also had the same type of problem with tape drives on a system a number of years back. Extremely slow, very unreliable. It would take 1/2 hour to back up 20 Megabytes of disk. And chances were, the backup would be no good.

    7. Re:Tape?!?! by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

      Not to mention if you search for "slashdot Ritchie releases ancient C compiler" you will see a 4 year old post about the first C compiler from 1973 by Dennis Ritchie.

      Even old PDP-11 tapes were reliable and all the date was still there after almost 30 years when he reposted the fill 3 files that made up the source code. :-)

      Tapes were quality components back then.

    8. Re:Tape?!?! by Jozer99 · · Score: 1

      I do some work in a TV studio, and they are always having tape problems, even with their expensive equiptment. The best tapes, used only in the best equiptment, often fail and wear out. The tape medium is a rather unstable chemical mixture that degrades. Also, tapes may not die if you drop them, but the reader/recorders are horribly delicate. If you open up one of those mobile news vans, you will find a significant amount of the equiptment in there is to fixed the @#$%$@ tape decks again and again.

  29. Space battles will be nothing like star wars by Tassach · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Real space battles will be boring as hell.

    Orbits are very predictable, and any real-world spacecraft will have a very limited amount of delta-vee with which to maneuver.

    Even with realistic sci-fi technology like fusion drive, space battles would still be boring as hell. Read Protector by Larry Niven for a realistic take on space combat.

    --
    Why is it that the proponents of "one nation under God" are so eager to get rid of "liberty and justice for all"?
    1. Re:Space battles will be nothing like star wars by Planesdragon · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Real space battles will be boring as hell.

      Somehow, I doubt that. A tactical spacecraft--at the current, only an ICBM or slimiar missle--will be nothing but manuvering, with an unusually high allotment of its weight given over to course correction.

      It won't be Star Wars, but it won't be interplanetary pool, either.

    2. Re:Space battles will be nothing like star wars by AKAImBatman · · Score: 4, Informative

      Better idea. Go read the Honor Harrington series. (Go to baen.com, click on Free Library, and select "On Basilisk Station".) While they have hyperdrives and gravity propulsion, space battles are heavily dependent on orbital vectors, base velocities, missile loadouts, and missile counter-defenses. The author (David Weber) does a really good job of showing how a space battle might play out. Oh, and it is quite exciting. :-)

    3. Re:Space battles will be nothing like star wars by arodland · · Score: 3, Informative

      You beat me to it; good thing I decided to re-check before I hit submit (that's what happens when you take half an hour to compose your reply). Anyway, Weber is definitely an interesting source for the possible future history of space warfare. Pretty much everything he writes is based on historical precedent, but he does (in my estimation) a great job of bringing it into the future and into the three-dimensional (or maybe a few more) world of space.

    4. Re:Space battles will be nothing like star wars by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      David Weber - On Basilisk Station

      Had to mod that up so here is the link via Anonymous account.

    5. Re:Space battles will be nothing like star wars by CodeBuster · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The space battles which are featured in the fictional Star Wars universe are meant to be entertaining diversions for movie audiences seeking a few hours of what if escapism; they are not intended to be accurate depictions of realistic space combat scenarios.

    6. Re:Space battles will be nothing like star wars by TWX · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "Somehow, I doubt that. A tactical spacecraft--at the current, only an ICBM or slimiar missle--will be nothing but manuvering, with an unusually high allotment of its weight given over to course correction."

      So, what's to prevent the engaging ship from detonating weapons in six to eight positions relative to where they think the target is, so that if the target moves they still end up destroying it?

      I'd think that the future of space warfare would be in the effectiveness of decoys and disguise, rather than in the effectiveness of dodging close range fire. If they can't find you then it's harder to hit you, and if they find a convincing enough decoy then they may mistake its destruction for your destruction, leaving you to find them and destroy them or to pull out and regroup elsewhere.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    7. Re:Space battles will be nothing like star wars by putaro · · Score: 1

      PLEASE...with the special shields where by "flipping on their sides" they can block incoming missiles?!?!? As though everything is stuck in a 2-dimensional plane - I guess the man never saw Star Trek 2.

    8. Re:Space battles will be nothing like star wars by FhnuZoag · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Defintely nothing like star wars. It will probably be more comparable to submarine vs submarine engagements, since it would be hard for one side to detect the other without giving away their own location.

      Another parallel would be artillery engagements. Because of recoil effects, and range considerations, both sides will probably use rocket-based weapons. So space battles will probably be conducted at huge ranges, with each dodging missiles, and trying to guess where the foe will go.

    9. Re:Space battles will be nothing like star wars by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Another excellent read: The Forever War by Joe Haldeman.

    10. Re:Space battles will be nothing like star wars by Tassach · · Score: 1

      A spacecraft would be no more able to dodge incoming missiles than a naval ship can. It would be pretty much like modern naval warfare without aircraft, and in 3 dimensions instead of 2. It would come down to offensive missles against anti-missiles and point defenses.

      --
      Why is it that the proponents of "one nation under God" are so eager to get rid of "liberty and justice for all"?
    11. Re:Space battles will be nothing like star wars by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except that he seems not to have clued on to the fact that there are three dimensions in space instead of two. I believe he took historical naval battles with sailing ships where the problem was timing and wind and transferred that to space were the problems are timing and delta-v. The books are fairly readable apart from that.

    12. Re:Space battles will be nothing like star wars by drsquare · · Score: 1

      Modern naval warfare? What exactly is modern naval warfare like? When was the last time there was a war between two countries with large, modern navies? Most wars these days seem to consist of bombers vs. anti-aircraft missiles, or guerillas with machine-guns in third-world dictatorships.

    13. Re:Space battles will be nothing like star wars by Planesdragon · · Score: 1

      So, what's to prevent the engaging ship from detonating weapons in six to eight positions relative to where they think the target is, so that if the target moves they still end up destroying it?

      The same thing that prevents them from doing that now, only moreso.

      That is, too much time and energy spent wasting shots--each of which gives a real clear fix on your position.

    14. Re:Space battles will be nothing like star wars by deadhammer · · Score: 1
      So, what's to prevent the engaging ship from detonating weapons in six to eight positions relative to where they think the target is, so that if the target moves they still end up destroying it?

      Ammo preservation, that's what. Even if we're all firing lasers and not projectiles, that's still a lot of energy to just be throwing around at space (or whatever's behind the craft at the time). I imagine early space combat will still be using high velocity projectiles, so that strategy, while useful if taking out a single, sitting duck, probably won't be viable in any large scale multi-target situation.

      --
      I'll be honest, we're throwing science against the wall to see what sticks. -Cave Johnson
    15. Re:Space battles will be nothing like star wars by iamlucky13 · · Score: 1

      Modern meaning no sails, I guess.

      The submarine battle comparison was much better. You'd never see your target and the tactics would probably be based around stealth. You could use radar to look for a target, but the other guy could probably detect your signal at twice the distance you can get a good return signal from, then he would know which direction you are.

    16. Re:Space battles will be nothing like star wars by gtkuhn · · Score: 1

      Am I wrong or would anything that explodes be a pretty useless weapon in a vacuum. Can you have a shock wave with no medium?

    17. Re:Space battles will be nothing like star wars by Daemonik · · Score: 1

      In the Honorverse the ships are propelled by gravity bands on the top and bottom of the ships, this configuration is locked in by the nature of the propulsion system. These bands are of such magnitude that they are impeneterable, HOWEVER, the sides are defended by armor and lighter bands of gravity waves. In the newer novels they have developed shields for the front and rear but their use prevents the ship from maneuvering.

      This means that the best targets on a ship are the front, rear or sides. The front or rear, being smaller targets are not frequently sought and most fire is concentrated to the sides. Most missles do not have the fuel for sustained maneuvers and usually end up on balistic courses by the time they lock onto their targets, which is why sometimes a ship is able to roll and interpose their impenetrable gravity bands rather than the weeker sidewalls.

      However, if an enemy can overwhelm the electronic counter measures and point defences to swamp a ship with missles then they can and are destroyed.

      Try reading the books and understanding the tactics a little more before you criticize them next time.

    18. Re:Space battles will be nothing like star wars by AKAImBatman · · Score: 1

      Am I wrong or would anything that explodes be a pretty useless weapon in a vacuum.

      You're wrong. Do you know the difference between a concussion grenade (which does little to no damage) and a regular grendae (which is EXTREMELY dangerous)? If you said "shrapnel", pat yourself on the back.

      All that energy from the explosion has to go somewhere. Oxygen/Nitrogen is probably the least effective projectile particle. Lacing the explosive with something harder (like lead or tungsten) is going to cause a LOT more damage to the intended target.

    19. Re:Space battles will be nothing like star wars by putaro · · Score: 1

      Most missles do not have the fuel for sustained maneuvers and usually end up on balistic courses by the time they lock onto their targets, which is why sometimes a ship is able to roll and interpose their impenetrable gravity bands rather than the weeker sidewalls.

      It's STUPID. This would assume that only one missle is on course for the ship or they're all in a plane. Were you to have shields of this nature the obvious tactic would be to fire a spread of missles which would maneuver (before running out of fuel) such that they come at the target from multiple angles. Or, if you have multiple ships firing together, you would disperse them vertically relative to the enemy such that their missles came in at different angles to the target.

      I did read the books and they were stupid. David Weber's books may be entertaining but technically accurate they are not. They fall into that category of books that throw lots of technical terms around to SEEM accurate but are not.

    20. Re:Space battles will be nothing like star wars by Daemonik · · Score: 1

      Again, the books never claim that rolling the ship was a guaranteed method of blocking a missle. The missles do come in on a number of 'planes' but they must also fight their way through numerous electronic and active counter-measures as well. I also pointed out that ships are frequently swamped by more missles than they can defend against.

      Weber never claims that by simply rolling the ships that they are always impervious to damage, such a stance would indeed be absurd as no vessel would ever take any damage so why have a battle anyway? No, rolling the ship is just one tactic that sometimes works, sometimes doesn't but is no less valid to use in the universe as he's layed it out.

    21. Re:Space battles will be nothing like star wars by putaro · · Score: 1

      Weber never claims that by simply rolling the ships that they are always impervious to damage, such a stance would indeed be absurd as no vessel would ever take any damage so why have a battle anyway?

      You might try reading the books yourself. From On Basilisk Station (and thank you, Baen.com for putting it on online):

      It also meant that deep-space battles had a nasty tendency to end in tactical draws, however important they might be strategically. When one fleet realized it was in trouble, it simply turned its ships up on their sides, presenting only the impenetrable aspects of its individual units' impeller wedges, while it endeavored to break off the action. The only counter was a resolute pursuit, but that, in turn, exposed the unguarded frontal arcs of the pursuers' wedges, inviting raking fire straight down their throats as they attempted to close. Cruiser actions were more often fought to the finish, but engagements between capital ships all too often had the formalism of some intricate dance in which both sides knew all the steps.

      So, yeah, Weber realized that this tactic in his "Honorverse" would make a lot of battles moot. Unfortunately the tactic doesn't make any sense. The only way in which such a tactic of "turning the ships up on their sides" would work is if the opposing force were lined up in the same plane.

      I'm sorry, the books are stupid. I had heard a lot about Honor Harrington and was looking forward to a fun read but this tactic is so stupid that I couldn't suspend my disbelief and enjoy the novels. The stupidity is so central to all of their tactics that it's just not fun.

      There's also talk in one of the other novels of "crossing the T". This is a classic maneuver with battleships where you have two lines of battleships crossing at (more or less) right angles. The line "crossing" the T has all of their batteries unmasked to the side and can bring all of their guns to bear on the enemy. The line that is crossed only has their frontal batteries available and is hence at a disadvantage.

      This makes no sense with (a) guided missiles, (b) warships in free flight that could stop accelerating and turn as necessary to unmask batteries and (c) warships manuevering in 3 dimensions that would not be in a line. You'll note that this tactic has not even been used in ocean warfare since WWI thanks to things like aircraft and guided missles.

    22. Re:Space battles will be nothing like star wars by Tassach · · Score: 1
      Guided missle destroyers and frigates are often deployed alone or in small task forces (vs. being part of a carrier battle group). Every navy in the world has at least a couple of this kind of ship. The former USSR built a whole lot of Kashin and Krivak class boats; and the Russians have been selling them off to everyone and their brother, who have been in turn refitting them with modern missiles and fire control systems.

      I suspect that a space battle would strongly resemble a naval engagement between DDGs and FFGs

      --
      Why is it that the proponents of "one nation under God" are so eager to get rid of "liberty and justice for all"?
    23. Re:Space battles will be nothing like star wars by dolphin558 · · Score: 1

      ...and create even more space junk (assuming this battle happens in Earth orbit)

    24. Re:Space battles will be nothing like star wars by Daemonik · · Score: 1

      If you don't like the series then you don't like it, I doubt I'll change your mind but regardless I enjoy the series quite a bit. As for your quote, if I remember correctly that quote was about the state of interstellar warfare prior to Basilisk Station. Basilisk was the first novel and many of the tactics talked about in it have changed as weapon systems have advanced such as the introduction of missle pod carriers and the LAC carriers which are roughly analagous to the introduction of aircraft carriers.

      As for "Crossing the T", the Honorverse is in many ways Horatio Hornblower in the future which is where such tactics came about.

      However:

      When you mention naval battles today, yes, no one bothers with the crossing the T maneuver because missles can easily hit a target over the horizon within seconds of launch. Also take into account that current terrestrial long range guided missles use maneuvering fins to make course corrections, a space launched missle would require reaction jets and fuel, adding to their mass and slowing their acceleration curve. These are important things to consider when you're aiming for a moving target a couple of light minutes away from you.

      Consider the dynamics of ships in the Honorvers:
      1) The gravity bands above and below the ship can not be penetrated in either direction.
      2) The best way to guarantee a hit on an enemy ship is to overload it's defences with a massive barrage. The sides of the ship have more area to mount more missle tubes and have weaker shields that can be lowered for launches.
      3) Missles in space need fuel to maneuver since there's no atmosphere for fins to work against. Most missles in the Honorverse use large capacitors to power gravity drives, newer Manticoran missles use fission reactors for extra range. Either way there is a trade-off between range and missle size, longer range=fewer missles on a ship (although the fission drive missles are less bulky for their range). Now, I can eject my missles to the side of my ship forcing them to use their limited energy to turn and then begin to accelerate relative to their targets OR I can turn my ship and fire them from powered launch tubes which give them a significant amount of velocity before they even begin to use their own internal drives thus saving some power for last minute course corrections.... Gee, tough decision. Not.
      4) A great deal of the battles in the Honorverse are spent maneuvering their ships into tactically superior trajectories which allow them to fire their missles into their targets on intercepting vectors. I'm not sure what vision you have of space battles but again missles only have so much fuel and can not chase an enemy ship down from across the solar system. In a space battle with the propulsion systems available in the Honorverse it is best to fire on a least time to target trajectory so they have more fuel for last minute course corrections as they near their targets.
      5) Firing your missles on a least time intercept course from directly in 'front' of your target also limits the amount of course changes they can make to avoid your missles. So yes, you still want to "Cross their T".

    25. Re:Space battles will be nothing like star wars by putaro · · Score: 1

      The thing that bothers me about books like the Honor Harrington series is that they show a lack of critical thinking and a lack of appreciation for the numbers involved. I'm continuing on with this discussion in the hopes that perhaps I will spark some critical thinking within you and other readers of this silly thread.

      As for your quote, if I remember correctly that quote was about the state of interstellar warfare prior to Basilisk Station. Basilisk was the first novel and many of the tactics talked about in it have changed as weapon systems have advanced such as the introduction of missle pod carriers and the LAC carriers which are roughly analagous to the introduction of aircraft carriers.

      You said previously:

      Again, the books never claim that rolling the ship was a guaranteed method of blocking a missle.

      So sorry, that quote essentially said it. In any case, no one had thought of dispersing their fleet "vertically" for hundreds of years and firing missiles from different angles? Stupid history in the story is still stupid.

      One of the problems with Weber's books is that he likes to have BIG things but then forgets just how damn big they are (he shows this in many of his books, not just the Honor Harrington books). The energies and velocities involved are immense. IMMENSE. Googling through On Basilisk Station again, there's mention of a missile that can accelerate at about 800 km/s^2 for around a minute. That's 800,000 m/s^2 or about 8000 G's. A powered launch tube will make an infinitesimal difference in its delta/v. The launch tube can only accelerate while the missile is in the tube. Assume a launch tube that is 100 meters long and an acceleration of 8000 G's. (You might be able to accelerate it faster but you'd have to build the missile awfully tough. Current technology has produced railguns that can accelerate the projectile at 250,000 G's. However, that's only 16 grams of solid something. Missiles in Honor Harrington are big fat things) In order to work with numbers we can understand easily I'm going to focus on the number of seconds of accelerationthat we have. So, in terms of seconds of acceleration, how much impulse is that launch tube going to give us? Going back to high school physics we can see that the time (t) to cover a distance d (starting with a velocity of 0) at constant acceleration a is:

      t = sqrt(2d/a)

      So, give 2 * 100 m/(800000m/s^2) = 1/4000 s^2, take the square root, gives us about .01 seconds in the tube, vs 60 seconds of acceleration that the missile can produce.

      Let's even try it at 250,000 G's!

      250000G's = 2,500,000m/s^2, or 2 * 100m/2500000m/s^2) 1/25000s^2 or .006 seconds, which would give you a velocity of 2,500,000m/s^2*.006s = 15000 m/s or about .018 seconds of acceleration at 8000 G's.

      Hmmm...powered launch tubes that have to be slowly reloaded or banks of launch cells along the side of the ship that could be fired quickly? Having the missile change course vs the direction it's ejected from the ship is a trivial amount of delta-v. This is true even for today's missiles, which is why you see modern naval ships using vertical launch cells rather than missile launchers that can be swiveled. Where you will be using up your delta-v is in changing the velocity vector that the ship had.

      The initial velocity vector is why, even if all of the things you said were correct, the maneuver wouldn't be "crossing the T" but something more like "threatening to cross". The best time to fire missile would be long before you actually crossed the enemy's line. Why? The missiles, when launched, will have your forward velocity. Because ships and missiles travel at similar velocities (not accelerations - velocities. Ships accelerate at a lesser rate but a much longer time than missiles) your forward velocity would be pretty major relative to the missiles' available delta/v. If you launch as you cross the T, the missiles wil

  30. Answer and a comment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    At one point, my data is a bit old, heads 'flew' over the surface of the disk on a thin layer of air. If the air were removed, the head would crash into the disk. Also, I suspect that 'G' forces and vibration aren't good for most hard disks.

    Avionics in general, and ground based avionics in particular, tends to have very long life cycles. The basic philosophy is that even if newer stuff is better and even if it might be more reliable, we have much more information about the old stuff. It doesn't matter that our VHF-DF dies if a thunder storm comes within a hundred miles of it. What does matter is that it has NEVER given us false information. NO information is way better than false information. Also, when it dies, we know what it will do. There are no suprises. If all hell is breaking out, you don't need suprises do you.

  31. Computers in Space by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    > Computers in Space

    "Awww, come on. Just a quick one."

    Jack leaned back in his chair. Normally his patter was much smoother, but he thought he had her nailed. A socially inept appeal was just what the doctor ordered. At this moment. At this place.

    "Pop it, yeah, come on baby!"

    Crossing his fingers...yes! She lifted her top, exposing her breasts for about two and a third seconds. Nice "heavy C" breasts with large-diameter, dark-skinned areolae. Oval shape. Oval in the vertical direction, although what vertical meant was up in the air, literally, as the woman was aboard the space shuttle, orbiting over the Atlantic somewhere.

    Isn't modern technology wonderful? Jack thought to himself.

    "They could float thru that door any second. Take another chance! Scary stuff!"

    In a few minutes, he'd have her with her top up for a good 30 seconds, half her mind on excitement, the other half paying attention to whether her colleagues would come bobbing in. And 30 seconds was all he'd need to get done. 30 seconds on tape that is, which he could loop over and over. He switched on the recorder.

    --
    (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
  32. Re:This is really nit-picky... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    You thought is was spelled "hobbiest", but it's spelled HOBBYIST, you nuthatch.

    What the hell is an amateur hobbyist anyways? Is that like a tall giant?

  33. Overclocking in Space by aapold · · Score: 3, Funny

    I always wonder why you can't overclock the hell out of chips in the cold vaccuum of space...

    --
    "Waste not one watt!" - CZ
    1. Re:Overclocking in Space by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Yeah yeah, I know it's supposed to be funny, not serious- but thermal conductivity in a vacuum is of course zero, and chips are probably not anywhere near ideal radiators.

    2. Re:Overclocking in Space by RubberDogBone · · Score: 2, Interesting

      There's the cold of space and there's the hot of space. Most spacecraft don't spend their time pointing in ONE direction so the ships have to built with some expectation that exposed parts will face heat and cold.

      Anything exposed to the sun is going to get very hot indeed. That'd be bad for a bare CPU.

      Anything exposed to the night side (or the side where the sun ain't) is going to be cold but a CPU is still going to need a heat sink to effectively remove the heat. Empty space is not a particularly good conductor of thermal energy (i.e. heat).

      Most exotic space-approved processors are not powerful enough to need the exotic cooling we need here on the ground. Your P4 or AMD64 flies here. But not in space.

      Here's a thought: if WE launch spacecraft using fairly obsolete technology because it usually works, what does that say about any alien technology we might someday run across? It is logical to think whatever we encounter might be their version of "obsolete but reliable" tech.

      Therefore, if we actually DO have captured UFOs, perhaps whatever makes them tick -while exotic and exciting to us- is not nearly the most advanced technology the aliens might have. Perhaps the common antigrav UFOs are no more advanced the average junker WWII-era Jeep. Good for some off-road kicking around but nothing special compared to a modern off-road vehicle.

      Military analogy: the common UFOs are the Air Force Cub trainers. They keep the F-35s and the aircraft carriers at home.

      Flame away.

      --
      Sig for hire.
    3. Re:Overclocking in Space by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It'd be like trying to cool your Pentium 4 with just a heat sink, because convection (the fan) would be useless. In fact, it'd be worse because there'd be no passive air circulation, either. It'd be more like taping your case up, but leaving a heat transparent window on it. Not good.

    4. Re:Overclocking in Space by StratoChief66 · · Score: 2, Informative

      It is hard to dissipate heat in space. Even if the few atoms that hit your cpu are of very low temperatures, there aren't enough of them to keep it cool enough to run.

      --
      Frylock: "We should have cloned twenties, Jackson wouldn't have given a fuck."
    5. Re:Overclocking in Space by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      well i guess that a nice 50 cm diameter pipe-A
      inside a 2 m diameter pipe-B would indeed be cool?
      say both are like 10 meter long?
      inside pipe-A it's gonna be freezing?

    6. Re:Overclocking in Space by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All I know for sure is, if we find and crack open one of these babies and read the words "Intel Inside", we're going to be a little disappointed.

    7. Re:Overclocking in Space by EpsCylonB · · Score: 1

      Anything exposed to the night side (or the side where the sun ain't) is going to be cold but a CPU is still going to need a heat sink to effectively remove the heat. Empty space is not a particularly good conductor of thermal energy (i.e. heat).

      I have always wondered why CPUs can't increase or decrease their clock on the fly depending on enviromental conditions (a lot like fans that use a temperature sensor and spin faster when the temp increases).

      Certianly here in england there can be a significant temperature difference between summer and winter, the possible temp differences could obviously be much greater in space. Perhaps this is something to think about when we design the rad hardened processors for moon bases ?.

      Don't intel chips already do this kind of ?, I remember seeing a test where people were running Quake 3 and took the heatsink, they were able to carry on playing albeit very slowly (the AMD chip instantly fried).

      I guess this probably wouldn't fly with consumer devices since people would get frustrated when their computer variously speeds up and slows down. But for time sensitive processor intensive apps this would make a lot of sense.

    8. Re:Overclocking in Space by Disoculated · · Score: 2, Informative

      Remember that space is a vacuum. Much like a thermos bottle. Unless there's energy being transmitted to an object (like from sunlight), the hot stays hot and the cold stays cold.

      Unfortunately there's almost always sunlight to add some heat into your system.

    9. Re:Overclocking in Space by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

      Rumor has it from Intel founders that both the computer chip and fiber optics both came from the UFO crash in Rosewell. At least one of the founders wanted to start a company to investigate this.

      Strange shit.

    10. Re:Overclocking in Space by RubberDogBone · · Score: 1

      I can't vouch for those rumors but I remember hearing whispers about strange "solid state optical computer memory devices" back in 70's. It was simply some strange technology rather than something recovered from a UFO or anywhere else.

      Did these optical devices exist or was it just a rumor? I don't know. But it seems strange that anyone would come up with that concept out of thin air when we had barely begun to work with desktop computers of the era.

      Apple IIs were considered powerful at the time. Holographic or Optical memory devices would have been beyond comprehension.

      So why was anyone talking about optical instead of something equally outlandish like SOI or 70mm fabs? All of those things are equally sci-fi to somebody in 1978. Why pin it down to ONE kind of technology?

      It only seems odd to me now because we ARE moving toward optical computers. It will be years before we have practical working optical computers but the stuff is on the way. Rumor becomes fact given enough time.

      Ah well, time to put my tinfoil hat back on.

      Human beings are capable of amazing things. I think it does a diservice to their talents and ingenuity if we assume innovations are due to borrowed alien technology rather than hard work.

      On the other hand, if we do have over technology to play with, I hope to hell we are disecting it. I just hope it's more useful than just making Half Life 2 run faster.

      --
      Sig for hire.
    11. Re:Overclocking in Space by Teancum · · Score: 1

      The problem I see from rumors like this is that they tend to totally dismiss the brilliance of some very hard working engineers who came up with this technology in the first place.

      The first integrated chip devices where incredibly crude, and they were also the result of some very real pressures in the electronics industry to move away from the fragile vacuum tube-based electronic components. Keep in mind that many tubes only had an average failure time (MTF) of about 10 to 20 years. When computers were built using tube like this, that meant on average the computer would crash once per day due to a bad tube burning out or some other problem. Sometimes early computer researchers would be glad to have the computer run for just a couple of hours before it failed. A typical transistor on a CPU chip now can last thousands or millions of years on average, due to IC technology.

      I have been involved with too many of these engineers who help to design some of this cool stuff that often we take for granted, and the fact is that many of them are just plain brilliant. To claim that they got help from extra terrestrials is just pure bulls*** that is trying to discredit some amazing insight and many years of very hard work to get some of these products into the hands of ordinary people.

      The only real extra-terrestrial being that I've ever heard given credit for anything developed by these folks is simply God, and that depends on your point of view at that. And that is only a small group of these engineers.

  34. Article's missing/wrong on a few points by mykepredko · · Score: 5, Insightful

    My experience with space rated equipment isn't all that extensive or current (I was involved in failure analysis of an AP-101 memory card that had an intermittent failure from the STS-2 and had some interactions with the engineers at IBM's old FSD division, which designed the AP-101s and wrote the flight software) but the article misses one very big point that is the really fascinating aspect (to me) of spacecraft computing hardware and I would have to challenge a number of facts in it.

    1. The shuttle launch algorithms and orbital maintenance procedures are a lot more complex than the article makes them out to be. There are several hundred parameters that are continually checked, recorded and processed from tens to hundreds of times per second to make sure the flight path is correct and all systems are operating correctly. Along with monitoring the flight path, the computers were/are largely responsible for the data displayed on the astronaut/pilot's CRT displays in the cockpit.

    2. It is my understanding, that in the early shuttle missions at least, there were multiple code loads during flight. The original AP-101s had a maximum of 256K words of 32 bit memory, which was enough for a separate launch, orbit and landing image, each which had to be loaded into the AP-101s before the next phase of flight. There have been issues with loading software or receiving and loading new software from the ground.

    3. The original AP-101s were designed for the F-15 and could be considered "state of the art" for the early 1970s in terms of processing power and memory size. They are capable of about five MIPs and had a full megabyte of battery backed memory. They were chosen because they had been qualified for the high G-Loads and temperature extremes of the fighters. While the systems used on the shuttle were of the same design as used on the F-15 (and later the B-1B), they were inspected to much higher standards and all failures had to be resolved down to the point of having a test in place to prevent the failure from escaping the manufacturing/test processes as well root cause action plans at the component supplier.

    The memory card failure that I was involved with was caused by a solder ball inside a metal RAM chip package. During the shuttle's ascent, vibration caused the solder ball to break free and intermittently touch the surface of the chip inside the package. The problem was extremely difficult to reproduce and was found by placing a microphone on the chip package and tapping the chip with the eraser end of a pencil. Chips with this solder ball defect "rang" differently than ones without this problem. After the ball was discovered and proven (by cutting open the chip package), every chip used in a shuttle AP-101 was tap tested by IBM to ensure no other solder balls were hidden inside the packages.

    4. I don't know where that picture of the "Part of the AP-101S" came from as there is no way that is flight qualified hardware for an F-15, let alone a shuttle orbiter. Wire reworks are simply not allowed in high-G, high vibration environments and it looks like the surface mount components are hand soldered into place. I think this is prototype hardware that somebody pawned off on the author.

    5. I don't understand where the idea that space systems having to be low power came from. The AP-101s were real power hogs (all their logic is bipolar) and were in fact glycol cooled. A significant fraction of the orbiter power generation is devoted to the compter systems (as well as the spacecraft cooling capabilies).

    What is always interesting is looking at how the software for manned spacecraft is developed. A big joke is the Mars Observer and the mix up between English and Metric units, but think about how often you've heard about a software failure on board the shuttle - or any manned spacecraft for that matter. In Apollo, there were none and the software for the CM and LM computers was wire wrapped on a bed of nails instead of being burned into

    1. Re:Article's missing/wrong on a few points by helioquake · · Score: 1

      I enjoy reading your post. I wish I had mod points right now.

    2. Re:Article's missing/wrong on a few points by mykepredko · · Score: 1

      Thanx - it's an area I've always been interested in and I've been lucky enough to be involved with a small piece of it and some of the people that make it happen.

      myke

    3. Re:Article's missing/wrong on a few points by omicronish · · Score: 1

      Very fascinating. Do you happen to know of articles or web sites on this topic? It'd be really interesting to read about the software development process for space systems.

    4. Re:Article's missing/wrong on a few points by helioquake · · Score: 4, Interesting

      There was a slashdot article on this a long, long ago...this might be it (not original, however):

      They Write The Right Stuff

      It's a must read for programmers at mission critical stuff.

    5. Re:Article's missing/wrong on a few points by Detritus · · Score: 2, Informative
      --
      Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
    6. Re:Article's missing/wrong on a few points by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > There was a slashdot article on this a long, long ago...this might be it:

      It is. The reference to it on slashdot (if you want to read all the comments) is:

      http://slashdot.org/articles/00/05/19/050258.sht ml

  35. Some other methods by www.sorehands.com · · Score: 1
    Use the penis enlargment spam to build a space elevator.


    Or just take all the spam from the planet, put it together, and it will create an artificial singularity which can be used as an energy source.

  36. Older not always better by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful
    Look to the regional air traffic control system - the computers are so old that the manufacturers have exited the industry (AT&T hardware), no support of any kind available...they are afraid to turn them off because they are not sure they will come up again.

    As much as you want to kick around the lowly PC, there are many instances where replacing exotic hardware with commodity hardware (which is by far more tested and debugged and supported due to market penetration than exotic hardware).

    1. Re:Older not always better by grozzie2 · · Score: 2, Interesting
      But you are missing the most important detail. The old processors are 1.5 and 1.2 micron technology. The traces inside those chips have sufficient spacing, a gamma particle can hit one, but not two. When you get to the 486, you get to a smaller die size, and it's possible for a gamma particle to short two traces. This is why the 80386sx is used, the co-processor section of the chip is not used on the sx, it's the highest density portion of the chip, and far more suceptible to gamma particle problems.

      It's MUCH easier to harden a processor that has the bigger die spacing, doesn't take much/any shielding for use inside the van allen belt. If you go to more modern stuff, you are going to need about 50 pounds of lead to shield it.

    2. Re:Older not always better by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is why the 80386sx is used, the co-processor section of the chip is not used on the sx


      The 386SX I know never carried any coprocessor... That's why there was a 387 in the first place. On the other hand, it was the 486 family that had two versions with integrated coprocessor (DX) and without coprocessor(SX).
    3. Re:Older not always better by grozzie2 · · Score: 1
      you are right, it was late, I wasn't remembering things quite clearly last nite. 386sx is the one with the neutered data bus, 486sx is the one with the co-processor section disabled.

      Either way, it's still the same issue. Intel hardware from 33mhz and on was using a die size suceptible to shorts on the die from a gamma particle. The 16mhz parts were not subject to that, traces are to far apart.

  37. Someone should... by merpal · · Score: 0

    make a Beowulf cluster out of all the old space stations in the future. :)

  38. Re:astronauts use winamp in space - also Thinkpads by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    and also Thinkpads!

  39. Progress demands it by Ars-Fartsica · · Score: 1
    When people start venturing further "out there" beyond the moon, they will need to be more autonomous, which means higher degrees of reliable automation. This is just to keep themselves alive - a ground crew will not be able to provide timely assistance at Mars-like distances.

    Also all those people in the control room are getting paid. I'm not trying to be glib, but seriously, if we want to make spaceflight profitable, you are going to have to get some very serious advances in reducing the number of people involved in preparing and supporting these endeavors. Otherwise they will always be pork projects.

    1. Re:Progress demands it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All those people in the control room are needed to avoid killing people off. If you don't care about that (you build your vehicle to be more reliable and accept a certain number of losses every so many years, like the airlines, or you're Soviet China), then you can certainly scale down. Most of the people in mission control on, say, a shuttle flight are doing things like monitoring the life support systems or the computers or just about anything you can think of, down to the tightness of the quarter inch bolts (just kidding). Anyway, if all goes well, they won't have to fiddle with any of that stuff, so most of those people aren't really needed.

      Until something gets screwed up. Then you might want to revisit the Apollo 13 article from a few days back.

      Space flight is still pretty much in the barnstorming era; when commercial manned space flight becomes a reality, then you'll probably see innovations in reducing the ground support staff. But remember that even for an airliner, you have many more maintenance people on the ground than you have sitting in the plane. This is especially extreme for high performance craft like fighters, which often have 30 to 50 times as many people as pilots for every single aircraft.

    2. Re:Progress demands it by Ars-Fartsica · · Score: 1

      I understand the role those people serve today, and I understand they cannot be laid off tomorrow, but you will never have a viable private space industry if each flight is treated like an experiment. Of course the fact that pioneering flights are in fact experiments is independent of the human factor, but I'm talking about more routine matters, such as eventual space tourism etc. These types of enterprises will never be viable if they staff each flight the same way NASA staffs a shuttle flight. The first flight certainly will just for the novelty, but there won't be a flight 100 if they use the same approach.

    3. Re:Progress demands it by Detritus · · Score: 1

      There has been a great deal of automation. That's one of the reasons that the Saturn V was cancelled. It took an army of engineers and technicians to prepare and launch the thing.

      --
      Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
  40. Gagarin was a factory worker by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    They wanted to demonstrate that the Soviet system could turn any man into a spaceman, so they trained a factory worker for the job. So it is unlikely he was qualified to touch any of this equipment in any case.

    Gagarin was simply a PR tool. He was also tuned up by the KGB a couple of times, and there is photographic evidence of his face after the beatings.

    1. Re:Gagarin was a factory worker by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Hmmm ... should I believe the AC, or Wikipedia? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuri_Gagarin

    2. Re:Gagarin was a factory worker by david+duncan+scott · · Score: 1

      Well, if by "factory worker" you mean "fighter pilot", then I suppose so.

      --

      This next song is very sad. Please clap along. -- Robin Zander

  41. Determinism by Detritus · · Score: 4, Interesting
    One important point that the author missed was determinism. Many of these computers are used in hard real-time applications. If the tasks don't meet their deadlines, the system has failed. This requires predictable timing. That means cache is a liability, as are many of the advanced features of modern processors. You need to be able to sit down with a program listing and count how many CPU cycles it takes to execute a segment of code. If you have a 10 ms time slot to do a task, you have to be able to prove that the code can run in less than 10 ms. If you poll a set of sensors every 100 ms, you want the timing to be identical every time the code runs, to eliminate timing jitter in the measurements.

    The controller for the SSME (Space Shuttle Main Engine) uses a pair of 68000 processors. It is a very critical system. If something starts to go wrong with the engine, it has to detect the problem and shut the engine down before it progresses to a catastrophic failure. It uses two redundant processors for reliability. Each engine has its own controller.

    Old microprocessors like the 80386 and the 68000 were the last commercial processors before cache, pipelines and other trickery made timing analysis difficult or impossible. Some people have used DSPs for controllers because they still offer predictable timing.

    --
    Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
    1. Re:Determinism by geremy · · Score: 1

      Actually each SSMEC has 4 68000s, 2 channels w/ each channel configured in a self-checking pair configuration. NASA is about to complete an upgrade to the SSME, called AHM (Advanced Health Management) which adds 4 TI C40 DSPs to each SSMEC, so now each SSMEC has 8 processors.

      --
      geremy
  42. Re:Engineering by cheekyboy · · Score: 2, Funny

    thats why nasa gets all their parts of ebay for $3 and charges the govt $20000.

    --
    Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
  43. Computers on subs by peter1 · · Score: 0
    Reminds me of a story an ex-colleague of mine told me once. Her brother was an XO on a nuclear missle sub and at one point gave her a limited tour of the boat. During the tour they ducked through a small room in which all of the consoles were covered. When she asked what was in that room her brother told her it was the computer used to calculate the trajectories for the missles. Apparently this design went back to the late 70s, but nobody was willing to replace it since this was more than enough computing horsepower to do the job and has been extensively tested to guarantee that all the bugs have been worked out.

    With today's hardware you could probably replace that entire room with a handheld computer, but what would it require to fully test all possible permutations and guarantee it as acurate as the original?

    1. Re:Computers on subs by evillamer · · Score: 0, Troll

      Consoles were covered? I wonder if those were Ataris? Hmm I heard from somewhere that they going to use the Playstation 3 for trajectory. Maybe I was wrong, I think it was the Xbox 360.

  44. ThinkPads...in....SPAAAAACE! by MsGeek · · Score: 1

    w00t, it's a ThinkPad! I couldn't tell you which one, but that little red eraserhead is unmistakeable.

    Question: The article makes a big deal about standard hard drives not being able to work in Zero G? Why does a laptop HD work in Zero G and a regular hard drive not work? Have I missed something?

    --
    Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
    1. Re:ThinkPads...in....SPAAAAACE! by Fred+Or+Alive · · Score: 1

      It's actually in no-atmosphere situations where the drives just don't work at all. Although another post in this story (by a NASA bod) says the hard drives tend to screw themselves in zero-g anyway...

      --
      10 PRINT "LOOK AROUND YOU ";
      20 GOTO 10
    2. Re:ThinkPads...in....SPAAAAACE! by TheHawke · · Score: 1

      I think that the problem was of how much air pressure that the hard drive has to work with in a space vehicle. As i recall the Mauna Loa Observatory, which is above 10,000 feet, had problems in the past with head failures. They come to find out that the air density was insufficient for the heads to fly properly and the drives would quite literally, crash. So IBM, (as i recall) simply sealed the drives, made them hermetic with sea level atmosphere inside the drive case so that they could operate at the observatory.

      Now, I don't know how many atmospheres the ISS works at, but i suspect that it is pushing the equivalent of the 5-8,000 foot mark back on good old terra firma, which could make for some interesting problems with the 3.5" HDs.

      --
      First rule of holes; When in one, stop digging.
    3. Re:ThinkPads...in....SPAAAAACE! by Tim+Doran · · Score: 2, Informative
      It's a Thinkpad, alright. They use 'em on the Space Shuttle too - basically NASA put a stake in the ground in the mid-90's, bought a boatload of 166MHz Thinkpads, put Windows 95(!) on them and characterized the heck out of them.

      So the many faults of this platform are well understood, which is what really counts. Interesting article on this here

      (Loving my T40... er... in the abstract sense only)

  45. Sure, they need a fast computer for space by evillamer · · Score: 2, Funny

    running on Intel Pentium 4 Extreme Edition 840 Dual corebwith dual SLI Geforce 6800 Ultra 512MB and 4096MB of DDR2-533 memory to run Halflife 2 and Doom3 in space, and of course the latest edition of 3Dmark2005. I am sure those cosmonauts could use some 3D gaming entertainment while waiting for docking. ;)

  46. no cache, no out-of-order operation by MonkeyBoyo · · Score: 2, Informative

    I've had experience with some of the computers in older government satellites.

    Simple processors are preferred because that makes it much easier to figure out the time bounds on a subroutine. You don't want one routine to use up so much time that it keeps something else from being done. Timing information is rigoriously analyzed to make sure that the system won't miss something if lots of things happens at once. Fancy modern archetectures like cache, pipeline stalls, out-of-order operations, etc. make timing analysis very difficult.

    Generally interrupts are not used - instead conditions are polled at a regular time slice. One reason for this is that polled data is also down-linked in a telemetry stream for status monitoring and trouble shooting. Also interrupts greatly complicate timing analysis.

    1. Re:no cache, no out-of-order operation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Generally interrupts are not used - instead conditions are polled at a regular time slice.


      So how do they manage to get accurate time slices without using interrupts? Even internal timers on most systems are interrupt-based. And, of course, unless you know exactely how many cycles will take every I/O operation performed...
  47. Re: Disk drives and Ambient Air by some+guy+I+know · · Score: 1
    While it needs that air to prevent the head from smashing into the drive platter, I think that modern drives are completely sealed. Thus they have their own atmosphere and don't need to be exposed to nasty particles and bacteria that could cause drive crashes.
    Unless things have changed in the past couple of years, then no, modern drives are not completely sealed.
    They have a very small hole to allow equalization of air pressure between the interior and exterior of the drive.
    The hole is covered with a HEPA-style filter (which may be inside the drive), which helps keep out undesirable particles.
    The hole is also located in an area where very little airflow occurs (e.g., behind the circuit board), which also helps.
    Thus, there is very little air movement between the interior and exterior of the drive, but it does occur.

    Unless things have changed in the past couple of years.
    --
    Those who sacrifice security to condemn liberty deserve to repeat history or something. - Benjamin Santayana
  48. Oooo! Autonomous People! by some+guy+I+know · · Score: 1
    When people start venturing further "out there" beyond the moon, they will need to be more autonomous
    I thought that people were already pretty autonomous.
    --
    Those who sacrifice security to condemn liberty deserve to repeat history or something. - Benjamin Santayana
  49. Mars Rover's FPGAs compute flawlessly by olafva · · Score: 4, Informative

    The FPGAs on Spirit and Opportunity seem to be overlooked. NASA's new Reconfigurable Scalable Computer (RSC) Project for space applications is exploring using FPGAs (instead of CPUs) which offer increased performance and radiation tolerance at a fraction of the power consumption.

    --
    What's past is NOT ALWAYS prologue for the future!
  50. Here's an idea- by tweedlebait · · Score: 1

    so from tfa it explains all the hardware is up there because it works. Very reasonable, and I love the simplistic approach in some situations.

    I'm no space / gov't expert but here's my 3 million dollar proposal-

    Upgrade Torture Sat (tm) (R)(C)(CC)(GPL)

    Launch a sattelite with an orbit into the nasty zones of local space packed with modern equipment as a real world torture test.

    I bet several chip mfgrs would step up just for the prestige.

    You could run the software you wanted for a few years, you could set up special test equipment just to handle the more low level stuff.

    Now the space industry is up to 25 years ahead.

    --
    Firefox & /. ? Use this often:
    1. Re:Here's an idea- by Sipos · · Score: 1
      I am actually working on a satellite being built by teams of students distributed at different universities at them moment. One of the things we will be doing is launching a box of hardware that people seem to disagree over whether it will work in space. We will test this hardware during flight and are measuring other parameters like total ionising dose and the plasma current. Hopefully this will make what we are doing cheaper next time because we will be able to use lots of off the shelf hardware that we did not know would work this time.

      Our orbit will pass through the Van Allen belts so this is about as much of a torture test as you can get.

    2. Re:Here's an idea- by plusser · · Score: 1

      Why do this, when there are suitable particle accelerators that can perform this on the ground? Actually, my former manager is working on a project to perform this type of task for the aerospace industry (using particle accelerators and high altitude aircraft), as we have similar problems on aircraft.

  51. Urban Legend... by imsabbel · · Score: 2, Insightful

    There hasnt been a single instance of proven cosmic ray bit flip on ground level.

    And for bit-flips of other causes: The bit-failure rate per mbit has dropped a few orders of magnitudes tha last 10 or 15 years.

    --
    HI O WISE PRINCE. WHT TOOK U SO DAM LONG?
  52. SDI by tweedlebait · · Score: 1

    I thought the same on sdi as you until I ran across a few declassified items in the clinton era.

    SDI still exists! Tech for it was still being developed & pitched at a time when it had no noticable public support/funding! I ran across quite a few real badass technologies, demos, and proposals. Everything I saw was done by the big aerospace/military companies. In the same breath I can't assume much has trickled out of these companies yet but i'm sure their funding is back in spades.

    --
    Firefox & /. ? Use this often:
    1. Re:SDI by tweedlebait · · Score: 1

      sorry to correct myself- declassified should be NOT/UN- classified.

      I don't want anyone showing up without a party hat on.

      --
      Firefox & /. ? Use this often:
  53. Er, yes... by ledow · · Score: 1

    The author of the article and some of the comments seem to be surprised that life-vital systems, such as a manned spacecraft, are running on "old" hardware because it's trusted.

    I doubt NASA, medical manufacturers and life-saving-equipment (such as airbags, seatbelts etc.) manufacturers are worried about anything other than making sure things work first time, every time, guaranteed and on-time. Severe code analysis is performed on ANY software of this sort, down to mathematical proofs that the program is correct, and you don't want your hardware to do anything you can't predict 100%.

    Why is it surprising that custom-built, antique (and therefore every flaw is already public... wanna find out about FDIV bugs, that the interrupt timing is slightly off, or that an instruction that is supposed to take exactly one tick sometimes take more when you're half-way to Mars? I didn't think so.), reliable, low-powered hardware is the norm in any life-critical system?

    As anyone who manages code knows, the simpler the better, the more predictable, the easier to debug and test. The Z80 was out and in commercial use for years before all it's bugs were found and documented and that's not the sort of thing you want when the machine has to make a few vital decisions (even if, in some instances, it DOES takes a few microseconds to calculate, verify, and implement them).

    Many systems like this even have two or more processors providing the same answers. Any difference between their answers and a warning is signalled indicating a possible hardware failure so that manual control can be assumed.

    Secondly, the hardware is considered embedded... you don't need 10 GHz, you don't need masses of cache (if fact it'd probably throw your mathematical correctness right off), and it only needs to be as powerful as is absolutely necessary. My digital watch don't need a GHz, nor does my airbag computer in my car or the engine timing circuits, nor do the life-support machines at the local hospital.

    Why would you spend more than you need to, introduce more factors (such as heat, power, airflow, RFI interference etc.) that need to be analysed thoroughly just to put unused hardware into a life-vital system?

    The article more than states the obvious and doesn't even bother to point out that most PC's actually waste a vast amount of their time doing unnecessary things. If you can put a shuttle in space with only a few MHz, why do I need at least 1GHz to even be able to LOAD some operating systems within a few minutes?

    1. Re:Er, yes... by Phist · · Score: 1

      If you can put a shuttle in space with only a few MHz, why do I need at least 1GHz to even be able to LOAD some operating systems within a few minutes?

      As spacecraft become more automated they will require greater computer processing power.

  54. I just have by caveat · · Score: 1

    a 5-point harness :P

    Sure, it's DOT illegal, but I keep the original belts installed for inspection time, and the buckle on the harness will undo under load. Bit restrictive, but I really shouldn't be mucking around in the car while I drive anyway.

    --

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. - Aldous Huxley
    1. Re:I just have by spectre_240sx · · Score: 1

      I hope you have a roll cage installed in that car of yours, otherwise that 5 point harness is a death trap. If you roll a car with one of those and you don't have a roll cage, the car crushing in will effectively behead you. With a normal 3-point belt, your body is able to bend and avoid much of the force, hence the reason for their use in automobiles.

    2. Re:I just have by caveat · · Score: 1

      Nah, I just bolted the shoulder straps to the back of the seat. Of course I have a cage - it's actually also a little too beefy to be DOT legal (what can I say, I have a healthy disrespect for "safety" regulations), but some trick work running the pipes under the interior trim takes care of that at inspection time.

      --

      Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. - Aldous Huxley
  55. billion dollar program with no data reduction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I worked on BMDO years and years ago. You might remember that project, it ended in the bankruptcy of the Soviet Empire.

    Anyway, we used to get gobs and gobs of data streaming in at 3megbit persecond the whole time during the launch of our sub-orbital payload. We would have reels and reels of 2 inch 24 track tape on to which we would record this data.

    There were millions for these launches in the budget, but there was no budget to analyze the data!

  56. Article fails to mention ESA by thanasakis · · Score: 1

    I once read in an older post on /. (sorry can't find it) that the European Space Agency has implemented a hardened Sparc implementation based on the standard. Sad that the article fails to mention it completely. Here is an interesting link though. I heard those puppies can work under radiation levels that would fry a normal UltraSparc. If anyone has more information that would be very nice.

    [rant]And what's more sad is that we are getting to the point where the x86 has become almost a monoculture, which is way very bad. Apparently there are lots of folks who think that the only processors around are named "pentiums". [/rant]

  57. Re:ThinkPads...in....SPAAAAACE! (oops) by TheHawke · · Score: 1

    Erfs, this is what i get for not drinking my usual gallon of coffee in the morning before I post.

    It's Mauna KEA observatory!

    --
    First rule of holes; When in one, stop digging.
  58. 2010: K.I.S.S. and Vectorized SIMD. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    The spanish shuttle will need a 40-bit clustered fail-tolerant supercomputer on a chip (a.k.a PS3's Cells) to evade meteorites using a lot of ultraquickcams.

    The problem's objective is max. performance & min. response time, not less power.

    open4free ©

    1. Re:2010: K.I.S.S. and Vectorized SIMD. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Go to Saturn and play to MineSweeper.

  59. No disk drives on Shuttle by chiph · · Score: 1

    We had an engineer from NASA come speak to the computer science department when I was in school. One interesting factoid not in TFA is that the reason that disk drives aren't used in spacecraft (at least the small ones) is that the spinning platters act as gyroscopes, and will throw off the attitude of the vehicle.

    I wish I could remember the other details of his speech, but one thing struck me as unusual, is that the AP101S doesn't use a standard 8-bit word. It's very task-specific, and the designers felt they could justify it based on packaging, weight, thermal, and need of the software.

    Chip H.

    1. Re:No disk drives on Shuttle by Phist · · Score: 1

      If the torque of a computer disk drive can have a direct effect on the attitude of a spacecraft then imagine what effect a human moving around inside the spacecraft can have. At least the disk drive can be mounted in the axis.

    2. Re:No disk drives on Shuttle by chiph · · Score: 1

      Human activity is relatively short-term, while a hard drive would be running over a longer period of time. Also, I understand that when running certain experiments, they ask the other astronauts to limit their movements to reduce vibrations.

      Chip H.

    3. Re:No disk drives on Shuttle by Phist · · Score: 1

      Speaking of vibrations, the launch of a spacecraft may damage computer hard drives. There is some capability of dampening. Spacecraft can experience vibration just from being exposed to solar radiation.

  60. You Can Buy an IBM AP-101S "Off the Shelf" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well, sort of. The author refers to the fact that the Space Shuttle's AP-101S is based on IBM 360/370 series technologies. Fast forward about 20 years (with two decades of enhancements), and you've got today's IBM zSeries servers -- which can (and do) still run 360/370 software alongside Linux and Java applications written an hour ago.

    The zSeries architecture has some unique characteristics for earth bound computing. In both space and in certain industries (notably finance), execution integrity is absolutely critical. (2+2 must always equal 4, never 5, despite cosmic rays or Skippy-the-mail-guy waving his T-Mobile cell phone too close.) In a zSeries server every instruction is executed twice by separate hardware, compared for integrity, and retried if there's a discrepancy. If the retry fails, there's a path to isolate the offending hardware, take it offline, provision a spare, retry, and proceed -- all transparent to software (Linux on zSeries included). There's a straightforward extension called GDPS to allow systems separated by up to 40 miles to participate in this scheme (if you need both integrity and extreme availability), although Linux is not quite GDPS ready yet.

    Do you need all this? It depends. If you're playing an MP3 on an iPod and there's a bit flip, who cares? If you're moving millions and billions between bank accounts, of course you need it -- badly.

    If you need Linux execution with instruction-level integrity, happy shopping for your zSeries server. And they're a bargain (honestly) "starting under $200,000" each (excluding disk).

  61. ISS payload laptop hardware by jyung · · Score: 1
    "Current" - Windows NT4

    IBM 760XD

    "Next Generation Laptop" - Windows 2000

    IBM A31p

  62. Error in the article by Tore+S+B · · Score: 1

    The article writes that the Apollo missions lobbed up machines that were marginally more powerful than an i386. By that I assume they mean the decidedly fixed-to-the-ground System/360 Model 91, an ultra-high-end machine at the time, later replaced by a Model 195.

    NASAs on-board computer was the ingenious AGC (Apollo Guidance Computer). It's slower than an 8086.

    --
    toresbe
  63. simple is relative by Phist · · Score: 1

    The fewer components you have, the less likely you are to encounter a failure. True, however, components add capability to the spacecraft. With fewer components the spacecraft is less capable and the larger the effect of failure to the whole spacecraft if one component of the spacecraft does fail.

  64. More Taxpayer $$$ for the Same Obsolete Shit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Got an old 386 lying around gathering dust? Put it up on E-Bay and maybe NASA will pay you $50,000 for it as an onboard shuttle computer.

    Your tax dollars at work...walking the streets for Uncle Sam Pimp-Daddy.

  65. Re:Here's an idea- on "torture-sat" by Herve5 · · Score: 1

    This is done from time to time. For instance, I know half a dozen years ago in one of the European Meteosat satellites, there was a spare card slot inside a computer box that went filled with a special, test-only card.
    The purpose was to real-life-test an image-dedicated processor. ESA placed a specific contract to a component manufacturer (Sagem), they devised the card, added a test software that was based on the image-filtering functions that one expected in meteorology at the time (the prime contractor of Meteosat satellites was hired to design the algorithms), and the card did fly.

    Now, it has to be said nowadays there is pretty much knowledge about the actual strength of components. Some manufacturers even propose rad-hardened chips, either offspring from military-related developments or even because they themselves develop spacecrafts (eg Motorola with their Iridium constellation have developped, and now market, a special space-hard version of the PowerPC)

    --
    Herve S.