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NASA Ponders Postponing Launch until July
BitFluid writes "According to Sun-Sentinel.com, NASA is considering postponing its Return to Flight shuttle launch because of 'ongoing concern about possible ice buildup on a liquid oxygen propellant line.' Apparently, that stuff turns into debris on launch, a risk they need time to investigate. If delayed, the target launch window becomes July 13 through July 31."
Postpone it again? Thats cold man...real cold
Let's stop messing around with this piece of shit and develop something wonderful through international cooperation. Just like in The Contact.
into some third world countries, since the money won't be used this time around?
I know, I know, people starving to death isn't your main concern in the US of A, even if it's often the result of US foreign policy, but come on - every three seconds, a child dies from an easily curable disease or hunger.
This sounds strangely familiar...
One serious mishap and they'd have one hell of a Roman candle.
"OH SHIT, THERE'S A HORSE IN THE HOSPITAL!"
Hmm.. I guess they need my shovell. It take care of my car during winter.
hilarious
Hm. Since NASA is so afraid of ice debris, I guess we won't be landing on any comet that's on a collision course with earth anytime soon.
On the other side, there's enough ice on Mars, carrying the extra weight over there to make some cold Bailey's would just be silly.
Remember all the ice raining off the Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo rockets in the launch movies?
All those guys said was "Let's light this candle"
Spray de-icer on it? Wrap it in an insulator? Blow warm dry air over it? Why can't there be a low tech solution to this?
They could stop the shuttle program and use the money in the few years in between now and when the new man-rated launch-vehicle comes out to seed promising space initiatives by private firms. I'm sure this would more than pay for itself.
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools The way to dusty death. --Will
read this as "NASA Ponders Postponing Lunch until July?
Apparenly the delay is due to a sensor failure that occured during tank testing. The delay will assist with getting a few other things sorted too, like cleaning up a hydraulic fluid spill.
NasaSpaceFlight.com has a nice write-up about it.
Here's ANN's coverage of the story.
If you're interested in this and similar sort of news, ANN is a great daily news site you should probably check out.
~Lake
It's not like the shuttle's gonna blow up or anything.
Jeez...
This postponement is so they will have more time to copy the features of Tiger...
NASA have postponed until July.
NASA did the job once, but since then they've done nothing but screw shit up.
It's time for Congress to get off their asses and ACT. Jerry Pournelle came up with the idea, which would get us a complete spaceflight system in five years, and only cost 10 Billion Dollars.
How?
Congress must pass TWO lines of legislation.
1) It is in the National Interest of the United States to have a mature spaceflight technology.
2) The Tresurer of The United States is directed to pay, tax free, the sum of TEN BILLION DOLLARS to the first American Company to keep thirty Americans alive and well on the surface of the moon for Three Years and A Day.
That's it folks. If we ain't got it, it's cause BUSH and Co don't want us to have it.
( Not that Klin-ton wanted us to have it, either, though... This idea ain't new. )
All we lack is the will to achieve great things. Killing kids over lies, that we can do. "Supporting Our Troops", check.
Pass TWO LINES of legislation to ensure AMERICANS have a stake in The Future? Nah...
Technology -- No Place For Wimps! Grateful Dead and Jerry Garcia Chatroom -- http://www.wemissjerry.org
"If we die, do not mourn for us. This is a risky business we're in, and we accept those risks. The space program is too valuable to this country to be halted for too long if a disaster should ever happen."
Gus Grissom
How is it we can visit the moon on multiple occassions in the much younger times of technological capability (even before electronic calculators for god's sake), but when we have advanced our technology we find ourselves topped in mid-countdown because of ice?
I say toss out the newer technology and let's look at what the guys in the first few launches did with older technology that made it so successful, and without the continual nagging for perfection in a job enviroment where risk is not only high, but will forever remain that way due to the very nature of space travel.
I decided to fulfill a lifelong wish and see this launch in person. So I booked my vacation when they announced May 15 was the target date.
Then they bumped it back to May 22 last week, and I had to scramble to rebook everything.
Now they've fucking pushed it back to July. This is the kind of luck I have. If I were to move to Florida, they'd probably cancel the fucking space program and de-orbit the ISS.
Thanks, NASA! I should have known to wait for a few launches to come and go, so you got complacent again and started putting timetables before safety once more.
I'm still taking the trip in May because there's other stuff I want to do/see down there (plus the airlines are downright vicious with the cancellation fees). I'll just fly back down for a day or two when they finally get their shit together.
Delaying the launch would give NASA more time to also address several other nagging technical issues."
Well, that is a relief! Better you don't rush the launch like they did with Challenger, give it time to really fix the problem. I am thinking they need to build something like the Skunkworks reusable vehicle that launches like a plane, instead of going up on a bunch of hydrogen. If only they had a millenium falcon.
He who knows best knows how little he knows. - Thomas Jefferson
Have a think.
here is the rebuttal.
1 - de-icer: DURRR gee, isnt that quite flammable?
2 - Insulator: yes, all well and good, if the insualtor is thick enough (also adds weight) no, 20Cm of insualtor doesnt fit? really! wouldn't have guessed.
3- warm air: ever heard of thermal shock? mmm, cracking.
COLD THINGS GET ICE ON THEM!
Man, being a Rocket Scientist sounds harder every time I see one of these stories.
[% slash_sig_val.text %]
Get off your damn asses and just put that thing up into orbit! If it fails and you can't continue the shuttle program whoop-de-doo Europe, Russia, China and Japan are sure to help you out if you ask nicely.
Geez, you gotta feel sorry for these guys. They are proably quintuply(sp?) checking everything! If this one goes boom there will be hell to pay. Poor bastards. I hate management and stupid media. Whats the odds of something going wrong with a flight? pretty high? 5-20%?
And how many accidents have they had in 40 years of space flight? Not many. Come on, they had to have a few bad years.
Best of luck to them! All the best NASA! There area lot of people who love you from the old days. You were and still are the technological pioneers of the world!
We have PE in school, its just a joke, thats all. Basically has to do with the fact that most people don't feel they need to work hard at anything in life, they just seem to think they are entitled to everything. That, my friend, is the New American Way! Back to the topic at hand, though, it sure does cost a lot to launch a shuttle, but think of all the money it pumps into the economy.
Mid to late July is typically when the hurricane season starts to really pick up steam. I would suspect that there will be more delays before the launch.
While I would hate to see the shuttle system scrapped due to another avoidable crash, I would also be disappointed to see NASA delay the launch until late November.
Well, I agree that it pumps alot of money into the economy, both directly and indirectly. Look at all the advances as a result of the space race. I just wish we had "space race II", I feel it would probably do a lot of good for the economy and the country. And btw... PE IS a joke, but thats because its required in high school. Where I went to school, it was little more than a poke in the eye for anyone with any accidemic achivement, kindof a way of saying "look the people that can't count past 10 are better at something then you" even if it was throwing a ball into a basket. chears, mike
1. Durrr geee not all de-icers are flammable (ever been in an aeroplane? that pink crap they spray on the wings is de-icer. it's ethanol with anti-combustion agents blended in. 2 you could wrap it in a vacuum sleeve. very thin, very light, very efficient. 3 er, no. you need a varying temperature gradient for that - the purpose of the air would not be to heat the pipe, just to prevent moisture from being in the air around it. picture a hairdrier.
You always get that with PE though, the dumb ppl of the class are usually the ones good at sport, but i guess it gives them something to be proud of, it must feel bad for them to suck at everything else. I was lucky that I was good at everything, not excellent, but i didn't suck at life lol.
I hope that was a failed attempt at humour or a typo or something. Avro (Arrow) is the plane. Avril (Lavigne) is the pop singer.
1: ok, but how long are you going to do that for, cos as soon as you stop, it'll ice up again. besides, the pipe is probably so cold tht
2: well yes, but its viciously expensive, and quite fragile to boot. and if the pipe is carrying lox then it probably already is insulated like this.
3: and again, how do you propose to do this up to launch? cos as soon as you stop, it'll ice up again......
dont you think they've already though of this?
twat.
Maybe they haven't though of it. It *is* rocket science, after all!
FloridaToday.com has an article this morning indicating that they *have* postponed the launch.
? AID=/20050429/NEWS02/504290343/1007
http://www.floridatoday.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article
One thing I quickly learned after moving down here to the "Space Coast" area, is that Florida Today usually knows before anyone else does!
The simple truth is the average American just doesn't care anymore. Congress is only concerned when NASA funding will bring pork and jobs to their districts. There's no long term commitment, funding, motivation, or fascinating technology there. The average Joe would rather watch SciFi, it's cheaper, less dangerous and fits his 60 to 90 minute attention span. Maybe it is time to scrap manned exploration for now and de-orbit that international boondoggle.
1. As long as it takes for the ice to be removed before launch
2. Really? how much did you pay for your last thermos? You must have been ripped off. And if it's icing up, then no, it isn't insulted like that.
3. Again, it only needs to be done directly before launch
RTFA, AC. All they're worried about is ice falling off it when it launches. If ice is removed before launch, it's a non issue.
It is sad that PE is a joke, especially in the Southern US. I don't know where you are from, but they sure do grow 'em big down here! Its sad, actually. People here need to realize that all-you-can-eat buffets are a concept, not a rule!
I mean, I can wait one more week. But until July? Come on what are you NASA people trying to do kill us? Although if it's serious enough kill us instead of the astronauts. I'm sure there's a few geeks here that are willing to give their lives in the name of science.
You have been warned.
Anyone known what preventative measure they're looking to employ?
* hydrophobic coating on lines?
* insulation on lines?
* heat tracing lines?
* mechanical deicing?
* chemical deicing?
* trained, highly skilled gerbils? --my vote
Never ascribe to malice what can be adequately attributed to ignorance. -Napoleon
NASA is not going to launch another shuttle. They're just going to play the "One more thing" game 'till everyone gets bored with it and gives up. Even when the shuttles were working it was nearly impossible to plan a vacation around it: you'd wait on the intercoastal for 5 hours with your scanner listenening to rebroadcast NASA transmission only to have the launch scrubbed when the 2-minute hold goes into the launch window.
The moral is: never plan your trip around a shuttle launch. An atlas or titan launch, that's another story - you can get a bit closer since they're launched from canaveral rather than kennedy - though they delay those as well.
Florida Today has good coverage of spacey things. Scan the pages for upcoming launches. It's too bad you won't be in town on May 11. There's a delta 2 launch.
Can you be Even More Awesome?!
Am I the only one who initially read this as 'NASA Ponders Postponing Lunch until July'?
1. As long as it takes for the ice to be removed before launch
(I thought the whole point was not to delay the launch!)
2. Really? how much did you pay for your last thermos? You must have been ripped off. And if it's icing up, then no, it isn't insulted like that.
however its insulted[sic], Proper, liquid helium/oxygen/really cold stuff Inuslated transfer tubes cost a bomb. do a search for the cost of "liquid helium transfer tubes" Cant find any cost? Thats how expensive they are.
3. Again, it only needs to be done directly before launch
See point 1. as you stop, prior to igniton of those honkin engines, it'll just ice up again!
It may be a case of 20-20 hindsight, but trying to keep giant tanks of cryogenic gases cool and ice free in Florida seems a mistake. Granted, there are huge advantages to being located towards the south, so heat is a given, but the whole icing problem would have been reduced by launching from Edwards, Yuma, or White Sands.
I wonder if anyone has considered wrapping the tanks loosly in mylar and blowing dry air in to create a bubble. You'd get some thermal barrier effect and avoid ice. The trick would be to rip the mylar off in the seconds before launch, but some Vegas magicians could teach NASA how to do that.
The world is made by those who show up for the job.
Twit Twit Twit, twitty twitty twit twit.
twit.
Wheeee!
Scott Bakula must be bad luck.
What the hell is PE?
No sig today.
And it's been obvious since Challenger went down. Up; whatever. The pieces came back down.
We need to retire the Space Shuttle design.
It's time for a new shuttle. Now, sure, the Shuttle has an enormous payload capability. And it has the means for orbital repair and construction. No other replacement designs have addressed those two functions, because they are designed for payload deployment, [i]only[/i].
I think long term, RTG powered robotic construction crews are going to be the only viable solution, as replacement of the current Shuttle capabilities.
The longer we fight it, the longer we go without a space program. Right now, we don't have a space program, we have a scheduled series of orbital rocket payloads. We don't have people going up and down, making a little 6-month stopover on the Space Station.
Fix the problem. Deploy a new design.
Quit using duct tape and bailing wire.
it would seem we're way past just doing away with the shuttle flight programs at the moment-- so it would seem reasonable to set about fixing the icing problem-- reminds me of icing problem on jetliners' wings during winter, while stuck on the ground, because of wintry flight delays-- you engineer guys can chime in on this: surely the smart folks there at the Cape Canaveral launch sites can come up with some sort of ground-based de-icing system-- the launch towers provide all manner of ground-based support for the vehicles, it would seem perfect for adding on the necessary technology modified from existing systems already utilized at major airports?
1 It doesn't need to delay the launch, it can be done concurrently - much like they don't stop fuelling even until the damn thing is beginning to leave the ground
2 Inuslation[sic] Cryogenic insulators aren't that expensive - for liquid He the cost is greater, but not that much - He is liquid below 3.8k only. A good vacuum is a good vacuum. And to be honest, it wouldn't need to be *that* great to do the job - an average thermos would do the trick - it's how we transported lox for experiments back at uni.
3. See 1.
Physical Education. Gym. At least in the school I teach its a chance for the school to babysit 40-50 kids at one time with only one teacher. No, wait, its supposed to help students learn the importance of staying physically fit and healthy. I think. I'll know more once our state beings standardized testing for physical education.
"My God, Thiokol, when do you want me to launch, next April?"
i don't think they'll launch it on july 4th, isn't the deep impact going to strike in that day?
The basic design flaw of the shuttle is that it's a vehicle that sits on the side of the booster. Anything that goes wrong with the booster, or falls off the booster, can damage the orbiter.
None of this would be an issue if the stages and orbiter were arranged vertically.
Fascism trolls keeping me up every night. When I starts a preachin', he HITS ME WITH HIS REICH!
NASA should certainly fix any bad design in the Space Shuttle and it's launch procedure. But basically going to space is dangerous and I wonder if what they are going after now are unavoidable risks of having both very hot and very cold stuff onboard. Personally I would accept a 10% risk to my life for seeing space and helping serious science like repairing Hubble and I am sure so would thousands of other people. They should continue flying both shuttles and do cool stuff including sending space tourists until whatever replacement launch vehicles are ready. Look at how many people die in Iraq, in car accidents or doing extreme sports just for kicks. Compared to that, a space flight is much more safe and meaningful.
Heat tape.
(Let's put this show on the road, and quit wasting time. ISS construction is way, way behind schedule.)
Read the article. There is a plan to use infrared from sources 500 feet (meters? I forget the units) away. However engineers are not confident that it will work. Blowers might work, except that you either need them on the tank (more weight to lift, and not areadynamic), or you put them on the platform and hope they never fail to retract after the main engines are lit.
Energia.
The lunar surface has a huge amount of oxygen in it. Spend a few hundred million to get O2 out of the surface and you are in business.
Biosphere failed because the people involved were all a bunch of arrogant scientists and academics, iconoclasts that could not get along. If you want to put lots of people into space, you have to do it military style, run things like an 18th century warship. They would be out at sea for years and order was kept by a rigid social hierarchy. There are no worker's rights in space exploration!
This is my sig.
Man, So the shuttle blew up. Boohoo. We all know space travel is inherantly dangerous. Anybody here think it is safe to sit on top of literally tons of highly reactive compounds and mixing them is without risks? NASA knew it, the austronaughts knew it. I'm not saying it doesn't suck that those people died, it does. It's just that everyone knew the risks and took them. That's no reason to stop space travel because of that. We've actually had a remarkabley low number of accidents considering the risks. If someone offered me a seat on that shuttle tomorrow, I'd be there in a heartbeat.
Since all the L33T computer g33ks already weighed in with their expert opinions, here's a little info from an engineer who actually works at KSC...
The truth behind the delay is there was too many questions left unresolved after the tanking test:
1) The tank has all 4 LH2 sensors that were failing intermittently. They showed dry when the the tank was full, and wet when the tank was empty... not a good thing!
2) The diffuser in the LH2 tank is all wrong! Marshall switched a vendor and passed on a whole new part to the Lockheed ET guys at Michoud, and no one bothered to qualify it. During tanking test, this diffuser had a higher delta p across it than nominal. What effect could this have? We don't know.
3) More Ice formed around the LOX feed-line bellows than was expected. There was a "low-tech" solution that was being tried out: flash huge parabolic lights on the area, which worked out great for the parts that were in direct exposure to light, but you can't get a direct line of sight from the ground to a large part of the bellows. Consequently, more ice formed than we expected around areas where foam was removed due to debris concerns. Other options are being explored.
All of this information was available this morning during the NASA press conference with Michael Griffin, and then the Technical Conference with Bill Parsons and Wayne Hale. If anyone here actually cared, they could have gotten their facts straight by watching it or reading the transcripts.
NASA is making the right choice... the tanking test was supposed to make us certain we are ready to fly, and we see that there's a few remaining questions (i.e. the three above). We' fulfilling the CAIB recommendations by putting safety of crew and vehicle above schedule pressures. I for one am proud to work for an organization that is trying so hard to do the right thing, and the only organization in the world capable of doing what we do (launch a multi-purpose space truck into the sky and land it). And all this while the keyboard critics denounce our work.
And to all of you who denounce the shuttle and want private enterprise, get your facts straight: the shuttle is a space truck, space ship one is a pair of roller blades. All the other proposals out there for the moon, orbital vehicles, etc. are just that... proposals, flash in the pan ideas... The space shuttle was once a proposal with lots of "promises", and you learn quickly that *manned* space vehicles are a little more costly and difficult to operate than these companies like to believe and plan for.
Scientist: People, we're in danger of losing our funding. America isn't interested in space exploration any more.
Assistant: Maybe we should finally tell them the big secret: that all the chimps we sent into space came back super-intelligent.
Chimp: No, I don't think we'll be telling them _that_.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Challenger joke (can also apply to Columbia):
Q. What does NASA stand for?
A. Need Another Seven Astronauts.
Does this dis the people who died in the accidents? People make jokes about death all of the time. Look at all of the dead baby jokes. Is this dissing babies? Do elephant jokes dis elephants? What about 9/11 jokes? (Q. Waht does WTC stand for? A. World Trade Crater.) What about GWB jokes? Well, OK, bad example. But the point is, just about anything is fair game for jokes.
Except pedophilia. That's just sick. (Q. What does NAMBLA stand for? A. Nincompoops Averring Most Boys Love Anal.)
I think NASA has lost confidence in the design. I have. The smaller (and cheaper) SpaceShipOne type design is good for people. If NASA wants to launch some gear into space then assemble for use in space then launch the people separately from the equipment.