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Windows XP Starter Edition Snubs P4, Athlon

Posted by CowboyNeal on from the for-starters-only dept.

Apu writes "CNET is reporting that Microsoft's Windows XP Starter Edition operating system specifically checks the result of the CPUID instruction on bootup and fails to continue if a Pentium 4 or Athlon processor is detected."

97 of 705 comments (clear)

  1. Arbitrary marketing decision by BWJones · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It is of course, an arbitrary decision manufactured by the marketing department as to my knowledge, there is no real functionality that is enabled on the "Pro" version of Windows with the Pentium 4 or Athalon chips. So, it seems like a fairly simple hack to get around this issue, as there is likely no real difference in the codebase of the Starter Edition other than some features that marketing has decided to disable and of course the above mentioned check, yes? (likely to violate the license terms)

    So, quick question: Windows has appeared to evolved into a seriously fragmented OS. How many different versions of Windows are there? There is a Mobile, Embedded, Server, Pro, Home, Starter, Handheld......What else?

    Oh, and Microsoft......If you cant make Windows more stable, you might want to do something about those error messages that crop up on computers running things like displays at airports. Almost every time I fly these days, at the airport, I see a computer running an information display that has crashed. Either a bluescreen of death (soon to be redscreen AND bluescreen of death in Longhorn), or a fundamental error message. This never looks good to customers and is bad advertising in large traffic areas. One of these days, one of these systems is going to get hacked and something truly embarrassing is going to be displayed on all of those big displays.

    --
    Visit Jonesblog and say hello.
    1. Re:Arbitrary marketing decision by MasterB(G)ates · · Score: 2, Funny

      Totally agree. At Rome airport a big european trip with my fiance - we saw this.

      http://img243.echo.cx/img243/6999/curiousindeed7ev .jpg

      I wasn't going to either place thankfully. The error looks pathetic.

      --
      In the Slashdot moderating system, humourless based offenses are considered especially heinous.
    2. Re:Arbitrary marketing decision by dougjm · · Score: 2, Interesting

      So, quick question: Windows has appeared to evolved into a seriously fragmented OS. How many different versions of Windows are there? There is a Mobile, Embedded, Server, Pro, Home, Starter, Handheld......What else?

      I'm not having a go but how many linux distro's are there? Before you stab me in the eye i'm a linux fan but the difference is that all the versions of windows work - for the end user - pretty much the same. In linux, there are so many desktop enviroments - and iterations of the the desktop enviroments - that it really (IMHO) turns people off - thats the key to why windows is world dominent, by having the market share everyone knows how to use the OS and feels comfortable in the "enviroment". If everyone had linux - that would of course be great but - when someone took a new job they'd have to spend ages getting used to the differnt desktop enviroments, never mind doing any work - of course thats asuming you'd let them have a gui...

      --
      Reinventing the wheel since 1979
    3. Re:Arbitrary marketing decision by BWJones · · Score: 2, Funny

      The current Whitehouse administration has made damn sure that Anonymous Cowards don't travel anywhere in Airports. Only people with identities can board aircraft, so you don't count. :-)

      Seriously though, the last three or four times I've flown out of Salt Lake International, Ft. Lauderdale International, Auckland International and Los Angeles International, I've seen errors or BSODs on information critical displays. One person is an admittedly small sample size, but with that one person, the observations are becoming a trend.

      --
      Visit Jonesblog and say hello.
    4. Re:Arbitrary marketing decision by Jeremi · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Blue screens in airports?? AAAA!!!! Better than the "Core dumped" errors I've gotten now and then on linux I guess?


      I don't see how they are better... if you got a "Core dumped" error, then an application died, but the OS was able to handle the dead application and continue running. If you have a blue screen of death, the OS has also died, and your computer is now completely useless until you reboot it.

      --


      I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
    5. Re:Arbitrary marketing decision by exley · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So, quick question: Windows has appeared to evolved into a seriously fragmented OS. How many different versions of Windows are there?

      Another quick question: so what? Last time I checked, there are quite a few distros of Linux running around out there. Everyone and their dog has a distro out -- mine is due to be released in about a week or so.

      But there's only one Kernel! Well, except that there isn't. There's the unstable series. The stable series. Older stable series that are actively maintained. Other branches like -ac.

      So yeah, once could argue that there are a lot of versions of Linux out there as well. I'm far from what you'd call an MS fan, but this is one of the weaker points to be attacking them on.

    6. Re:Arbitrary marketing decision by mangu · · Score: 2, Interesting
      the "Core dumped" errors I've gotten now and then on linux


      Funny, I've been using Linux since 1995 and I've never seen any of those. But BSODs in Microsoft products I've lost count. Even XP, which is supposedly "more stable", has given me its fair share of blue, or rather cyan, screens.

    7. Re:Arbitrary marketing decision by djdavetrouble · · Score: 4, Funny

      something truly embarrassing is going to be displayed on all of those big displays.

      something like this?

      (work safe link)
      (really!)

      --
      music lover since 1969
    8. Re:Arbitrary marketing decision by ignorant_coward · · Score: 2, Insightful


      Wow, Linux applications must make perfect use of pointers. Linux applications programmers must be so good that they never overstep an array bounds.

    9. Re:Arbitrary marketing decision by MadChicken · · Score: 2, Funny

      ...Fezzik, tear his arms off.

      (sorry, just had to test it out)

      --
      SYS 64738 NO CARRIER
  2. Low-cost and entry-level by fembots · · Score: 5, Interesting

    it is designed for low-cost, entry-level desktop PCs running value-based processors

    This is fine as long as MS provides a patch when P4 or AMD64 is considered low-cost and entry-level.

    --
    Rock that crushes, Paper & Scissors that don't matter.
    1. Re:Low-cost and entry-level by whoever57 · · Score: 4, Interesting
      This is fine as long as MS provides a patch when P4 or AMD64 is considered low-cost and entry-level.

      Well the report actually mentions Athlon not AMD 64.

      Early Athlon 32-bit processors are low end now.

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    2. Re:Low-cost and entry-level by Chris+Burke · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Early Athlon 32 bit processors were low end 4 years ago.

      It's true. I don't know what these idiots are thinking. It's one thing to disadvantage a product for market differentiation. XP Home vs Pro makes sense, even if the actual difference is arbitrary, because Home users aren't going to need server features. It's similar to the Athlon/Duron split. But this is as bad (or worse) than the original cacheless Celeron. Do they think their customers aren't going to realize that this product is crippled? Processors this (P.)O.S. won't run on can be had for about the same amount they're asking. I wouldn't be surprised if they raised the maximum specs due to lack of interest.

      In the article, though, I heard this echo of Microsoft's worst nightmare: "In India, for instance, professor Jitendra Shah has translated a version of Linux and a number of applications into the regional languages of India to help villagers learn computing."

      It's all about getting people to learn one thing -- your thing -- so they'll feel they can't go anywhere else. The brand loyalty of a huge learning population is at stake into the future. Microsoft still insists on being one of if not the most expensive components of a PC, of course. Which may also be something that doesn't last.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
  3. That's nothing! by DuranDuran · · Score: 5, Funny

    That's nothing! My copy of WinXP fails to continue if any kind of CPU is detected!

    --
    "You can justify anything by putting it in quotes, adding a famous name and making it a sig" - Albert Einstein
  4. Low end only by wiredlogic · · Score: 5, Funny

    But will it run on a 386?

    --
    I am becoming gerund, destroyer of verbs.
  5. How would Microsoft know... by CypherXero · · Score: 2, Insightful

    what "low cost" means anyway?

  6. You would think by tenchiken · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You think Microsoft would have learned after the games they played with Windows for Workgroups 3.11 and DR. DOS. This will not make the anti-trust crowd any happier, and just serves to tick off the opponents of Microsoft more.

    Microsoft is essentially creating a market for Linux by doing this. It's all about standardization and if companies have to purchase two different versions of Linux to use their hardware, they are going to look hard at the decision before doing so.

  7. Windows ain't done. by Tackhead · · Score: 4, Funny
    > specifically checks the result of the CPUID instruction on bootup and fails to continue if a Pentium 4 or Athlon processor is detected.

    Windows XP Starter Edition ain't done, 'til... umm... Wintel and AMD won't run?

    OK, boys, time to haul ass over to DEC^H^H^HCompaq^H^H^H^H^H^H^HHP and dig out those Alpha chips! Anyone got an P-II or a K6-III we can borrow until then?

  8. Perhaps a strange suggestion, but... by Ieshan · · Score: 5, Interesting

    On your second point, I think that Microsoft ought to have an option for screens to go black on errors.

    Microsoft Operating Systems are used daily in environments where it really isn't useful to display large blue screens with technical error information. Printing that information to a file crit_error.dat and displaying a black screen will be much less obtrusive and obvious in what you call "high traffic areas", and probably wont add much tech time.

    Just a thought I had upon reading your post. It doesn't really *solve* the problem, it just makes it more "friendly" to these sorts of microsoft displays.

    1. Re:Perhaps a strange suggestion, but... by macdaddy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Unless of course the blatently obvious applies. I would have to say that close to half of the Windows machines I see on a daily basis (including my own!) use a blank screen as their screensaver. Also don't forget that all Energy Star-compliant monitors will turn the display off after a certain period of time. I would much rather see a user get a blue screen than arbitrarily giving their computer the one-finger salute every time their screen saver kicks in or their monitor goes into energy saver mode. I can just imagine the helpdesk tickets and support calls now: "My computer locks up every day while I'm at lunch!" or "Every morning when I come in my computer has locked up."

    2. Re:Perhaps a strange suggestion, but... by stevey · · Score: 5, Informative

      Of course when the machine is in such a mess that it decides to blue-screen you're probably not going to trust it to write a file.

      After all it might have crashed because it encountered a strange filesystem error - and writing to it could trash your whole disk.

      There have been similar suggestions for the Linux Kernel; write information somewhere when the kernel panics, but they are usually shot down for the same reason.

      When a machine is in the 'panic' state writing to the local disks, or sending stuff across the network isn't usually feasible. (True some people have done it but its a hard problem - because you can't actually rely upon the kernel to do anything correctly when it's mid-panic).

    3. Re:Perhaps a strange suggestion, but... by forkazoo · · Score: 4, Funny

      There is an option to automatically restart on errors. Though, I agree with you, it would seem like MS would be jumping all over themselves to allow some customisations to high traffic BSODs. I know, if I was an MS Rep, I would offer airlines a customised OS that says "OS/2 has crashed again" whenever it would normall BSOD.

    4. Re:Perhaps a strange suggestion, but... by g0at · · Score: 5, Informative

      The Mac OS X writes data to the machine's NVRAM on kernel panic, which is then retrievable and interpretable once the system reboots.

      -ben

      --
      myselfmusic
    5. Re:Perhaps a strange suggestion, but... by Curtman · · Score: 5, Funny

      the real solution would be to go to a more reliable operating system

      You misspelled more reliable operating system.

    6. Re:Perhaps a strange suggestion, but... by Nogami_Saeko · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Actually, this reminds me of an old trick we developed to use on the Amiga on a public-access cable channel. The software was under development and crashed occasionally, so rather than having a flashing "guru meditation" up on a local TV channel until it was rebooted the next day, we came up with a plan, that would probably work on a Windows machine as well (or just about any other system)

      The idea was that while the software application was running, it drove a continuous 1khz tone out the audio port that kept a relay energized (that kept the signal on-air). When the system crashed, the audio output stopped, which meant the relay was no longer energized = video signal switched back to a stock SMPTE bars signal from a test generator.

      Something similar could probably be developed fairly easily for other machines - if the system freezes/BSODs, the audio stops (hopefully not looping ala a video game crash), and a relay could trip the reset switch on the front of the computer and auto-reboot it, could power it down, or any number of other applications.

      It was a very, very simple hardware project to engineer and worked flawlessly (unlike my software at the time) ;P

      N.

      --
      "Nothing strengthens authority so much as silence." - Charles de Gaulle
    7. Re:Perhaps a strange suggestion, but... by SpaceLifeForm · · Score: 2, Funny
      On your second point, I think that Microsoft ought to have an option for screens to go black on errors.

      That should be simple to implement. Just call the Power-off routine.

      --
      You are being MICROattacked, from various angles, in a SOFT manner.
    8. Re:Perhaps a strange suggestion, but... by RupW · · Score: 4, Informative

      Of course when the machine is in such a mess that it decides to blue-screen you're probably not going to trust it to write a file.

      Yes but it *can* safely write to swap space. On the next boot (I think!) it'll pull the crash dump out of swap and saves it in your windows folder for analysis. System Properties, Advanced, Startup and Recovery, Write debugging information. On XP and 2003 it'll then look at the crash and either point you to a web page with help on the STOP error or, if it doesn't recognise the crash, it'll ask permission to upload the memory dump to Microsoft.

      This does mean you need at least as much swap space on the system drive as you have memory for a full dump - which can be a problem if you've deliberately taken a small system partition, as our co-lo host used to do by default.

    9. Re:Perhaps a strange suggestion, but... by Foolhardy · · Score: 4, Informative

      When you direct NT to make a memory dump on BSOD, it uses disk space already reserved for the pagefile. You need to have a page file on the boot volume large enough to hold whatever size memory dump. Since the sectors are already allocated, it's as simple as writing memory directly into them; the filesystem need not be involved for this. The next time the system boots, it copies the memory dump contents into a new file (which is now safe to create) before the pagefile is used for paging again. Another area is pre-allocated to hold space for a crash event in the event log.

    10. Re:Perhaps a strange suggestion, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      So did you friend. http://www.freebsd.org/

    11. Re:Perhaps a strange suggestion, but... by ShortSpecialBus · · Score: 4, Funny

      I fail to see any airline buying any product that displays the word "crashed" upon any error.

      --
      //FIXME: Bad .sig
    12. Re:Perhaps a strange suggestion, but... by oudzeeman · · Score: 2, Informative

      OS X can also send a log to a 'panic server' during a kernel panic. You specify the remote machine (by IP address) in some open firmware settings. The remote machine must be on the same subnet.

    13. Re:Perhaps a strange suggestion, but... by dpilot · · Score: 3, Funny

      How about, "The Operating System of this computer has been *hijacked* by an errant opcode." Think the airlines would like that one any better?

      --
      The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
    14. Re:Perhaps a strange suggestion, but... by NixLuver · · Score: 3, Informative

      I'm certain someone else must have already pointed this out to you. Many types of windows BSOD's say "beginning dump of physcial memory"; they're writing to the disk. Solaris does it, Linux does it, Mac OSX does it. Of course there are failures that cause hardware to become unavailable, but those are usually hardware errors. All of the OS's we're talking about are fairly sophisticated, and they generate the blue screen or panic screen because someone is doing something naughty that leaves the kernel in question as to the status of memory, the stack, or other necessary functional bloc, so the kernel STOPS the system. In short, the vast majority of failures leave the kernel *quite* capable of writing to a designated crash pad, and every OS I've mentioned offers that option.

      --
      Thinking outside my Head
    15. Re:Perhaps a strange suggestion, but... by n.e.watson · · Score: 4, Funny

      Well, I ran the past few comments through MS Word's spellchecker and it changed every link to http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp I guess that must be right if Microsoft said it is...

    16. Re:Perhaps a strange suggestion, but... by X0563511 · · Score: 2, Interesting
      I have a better idea. Anyone remember this?

      A:\>debug
      -F 200 L1000 0
      -A CS:100
      xxxx:0100 MOV AX,301
      xxxx:0103 MOV BX,200
      xxxx:0106 MOV CX,1
      xxxx:0109 MOV DX,80
      xxxx:010C INT 13
      xxxx:010E INT 20
      xxxx:0110
      -g
      Program terminated normally
      -q

      (80 for hd 0 or 81 for hd 1 )


      For those who don't recognize it, thats the commands you enter into debug.[exe/com ?] (back in the DOS days) to erase the partition tables
      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    17. Re:Perhaps a strange suggestion, but... by RandomJoe · · Score: 2, Interesting

      A person at my office uses Autocad 2000 to make Win2K or XP crash! He has figured out exactly what process it is that causes the crash, so he can avoid it. He is therefore also able to give the sales department heart tremors if he feels like it too... ;)

      As I recall, it has something to do with changing filenames or moving files in the File Open or File Save dialogs. Something like that. Long as he stays away from that, everything is fine.

      What got us was that it ran rock solid on Win2K on his previous computer. He got a new computer, and this problem started. We tried both 2K and XP, same result, so started suspecting it was hardware but Dell wouldn't trade it out. He finally figured out the trigger, and we quit trying to fix it.

    18. Re:Perhaps a strange suggestion, but... by connect4 · · Score: 5, Funny

      The Mac OS X writes data to the machine's NVRAM on kernel panic, which is then retrievable and interpretable once the system reboots.

      Well, Linux flashes this information out of the keyboard lights in Morse Code

      So There!

    19. Re:Perhaps a strange suggestion, but... by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 4, Funny

      The major advantage of MacOSX, of course, is that when there's a kernel panic, the system displays a multilingual error message. This could be useful in places such as airports, where the users/hapless bystanders might not speak english.

    20. Re:Perhaps a strange suggestion, but... by tuba_dude · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I wouldn't think it's the software specifically. From what I've seen, most of that stuff doesn't look like it's doing anything tricky with the display. I'd think it would be a driver or hardware issue.

      --
      "The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."
    21. Re:Perhaps a strange suggestion, but... by Nevyn · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yes, yes it does: http://people.redhat.com/anderson/crash_whitepaper /

      --
      ustr: Managed string API with ave. 44% overhead over strdup(), for 0-20B
    22. Re:Perhaps a strange suggestion, but... by ThJ · · Score: 2, Funny

      Of course there are. In the real world, even the biggest geeks have Windows.

  9. Microsoft CEMENT by macdaddy · · Score: 5, Funny

    Don't forget Microsoft CEMENT. (Alternate link)

  10. dumarses by dopeghost · · Score: 3, Interesting

    thats stupid .. i mean atlhons started at, what, 500mhz? ...or what if someone ends up upgrading their machine from a duron/celeron?

    --
    This UID is 7651 digits too high to subjectively infer IQ from.
    1. Re:dumarses by IthnkImParanoid · · Score: 4, Funny

      This is either a misprint or misunderstanding, or a one of the dumbest things I've ever seen a company do. FFS, I built an athlon 1800+ two or three YEARS ago. Does anyone still have K6II's?

      --
      It's nothing but crumpled porno and Ayn Rand.
  11. Does anyone else think... by bobbis.u · · Score: 4, Interesting
    ...that users will try Starter Edition, find out it has all these restrictions and assume that all versions of Windows must suck and just load a free, non-crippled OS (mentioning no names!).

    I think they would be wiser to give away this crippled version on the hope that as India's economy develops they will capture some market with the full price Windows XP at later stage.

    1. Re:Does anyone else think... by vwjeff · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "...just load a free, non-crippled OS (mentioning no names!).

      I hope you meant a pirate copy of XP Home or Pro. Although you did say non-crippled.

    2. Re:Does anyone else think... by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 4, Funny

      ..that users will try Starter Edition, find out it has all these restrictions and assume that all versions of Windows must suck and just load a free, non-crippled OS (mentioning no names!).

      or 'worse', say 'screw this' and get a warez version of full xp pro, with sp2 already integrated.

      its not hard to find. the corp edition has no need to phone-home to register and reregister whenever you change hardware.

      or so I hear, from rumor. yeah, rumor.

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
  12. Not arbitrary. Calculated. by team99parody · · Score: 5, Interesting
    I think Microsoft is well aware of what it's doing.

    It's the same as having MSDE being a crippled SQLServer that limits the nubmer of threads it can run. Surely the CPU could handle more threads; but they cripple it so that more people buy the bigger one.

    This Pentium4/Athlon decision makes perfect sense - if someone can afford the higher-end processor, they can afford the higher priced OS.

  13. shoot(this.foot); by AaronStJ · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Apart from the fact that this kind of artifical limitation is really stupid, not to mention evil, it looks like Microsoft is really shoorting themselves in the foot here. From TFA (emphasis mine):
    Microsoft hopes to use Starter Edition to familiarize these markets with its products. Plus, because these countries are also havens for piracy, the Redmond, Wash.-based software maker wants to use perks such as bug patches and alerts to demonstrate the value of legal software.

    Microsoft claims they're using this software as a way to get pirates to start paying for the software. But tell me, what is the average person going to use: the "starter edition" that doesn't even work on their PC, or the pirated edition that does? The value of legal software indeed.
    --
    Stupid like a fox!
  14. Probably to prevent competition... by Xeroc · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It seems there doing this to prevent PC Manufacturers from bundling it with the cheaper end of the higher-end PCs - probably because buisnesses and others who need a lot but don't need all the full features, would want it, as it is about half as expensive as Home edition, and a lot cheaper than Professional.

    If they let it run, then, it would effectively compete with their full versions, hurting their profits!

    --
    "Real programmers don't comment their code. If it was hard to write it should be hard to understand."
    1. Re:Probably to prevent competition... by RupW · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Surely businesses wouldn't want to use this OS or even XP Home for that matter. The network capabilities of XP Home surely wouldn't be suitable for business and I would imagine the networking tools are even more crippled in Starter Edition.

      Why not? What if all your business apps are web-based and you only need thin clients? Starter will definitely have IE.

      XP Home's network is only crippled in that it can't join a domain. If you're using thin clients and you can do without implicit NTLM authentication then that's no big deal.

  15. This is what happens by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    When a company has monopoly power in a market. Imagine Ford coming out with a car that will not start in certain supermarket parking lots, or a TV that will not show you a specific channel. Why is it Microsoft can get away with shit like this but other companies in other industries can't?

  16. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  17. Re:mod parent down! by sneakers563 · · Score: 2, Funny
    Microsoft is essentially creating a market for Linux by doing this.

    Shhhh! Someone mod this down. We don't want this to get out.

  18. great.. by mindwar · · Score: 2, Insightful

    it doesnt run on athlon/p4 ant cant run/runs like shit on lower. gee. thanks MS

  19. More Monopoly... by Spacepup · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This just reeks of some hush hush deal with a hardware vendor to keep people locked in to older hardware in a bid to get rid of over stocked parts.

    I'll be the shoe thanks.

  20. Upgrade cost? by Spy+der+Mann · · Score: 2, Insightful

    My question is, if someone finally gets the money to upgrade their low-end CPU to something faster, why should the OS stop working?

    The point is to help poor countries develop, not to just "help poor people in poor countries do basic stuff".

    What if those poor countries were given high-end computers as DONATIONS? Like for schools, universities, etc?

    IMO Microsoft is asking for BIG trouble here. Key term: Discrimination.

    1. Re:Upgrade cost? by TheQuantumShift · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The market this version is aimed at is not the sort to open their machine for any reason, much less to replace the core componant of their system. Sure it's easy for us to do, but the people who will buy machines with this bundled will never crack the case, unless directed to by tech support (which in India, would be your neighbor most likely...)

      --

      Shift happens. Fire it up.
  21. The funniest thing in the whole piece... by DigicamGuy · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ...is the part that says "Microsoft ... wants to use perks such as bug patches and alerts to demonstrate the value of legal software."

    Interesting, that bug patches are cast as "perks." - Of course leaving unaddressed the value of software that doesn't need bug patches in the first place.

    So maybe that's why there are so many bugs in Windows -- So we'll all be so dang grateful when we receive the bug patches!

    This finally explains why I like Microsoft products so much...

    1. Re:The funniest thing in the whole piece... by The+Bungi · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Of course leaving unaddressed the value of software that doesn't need bug patches in the first place.

      I'd love to see an example of non-trivial software that doesn't need patches. Thanks.

  22. Another brilliant marketing strategy by mpontes · · Score: 2, Insightful
    People at Microsoft never can stop surprising me. Too bad it's in the bad sense most of the times.

    Think about it. You live in India. You consider yourself lucky for being able to afford a computer, but still, you have a very limited budget compared to Americans / Europeans / whatever. What would you do? Buy a better system and get a pirated version of the OS or do The Right Thing (TM) and buy a worse system but with a legally acquired OS? Sure, you won't help your friend whose family is starving, but you're willing to give money away to the richest foreigner in the world.

    --
    Bored? Browse Slashdot with a +6 modifier for Troll comme
  23. Why this won't work by alphakappa · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Having lived in India, I can tell you why this won't work. The users who pirate Windows are not people who need computers only for basic word processing - they are proper users who use computers as part of their lifestyle, much like people elsewhere in the world do. They do not like their OS to be crippled in any way.
    Why then, you ask, do they have to pirate Windows? The reason is cost: A user can afford to spend $100-$200 for a legal copy of Windows in the US, but in India due to the exchange rate it becomes a huge amount! It's comparable to the actual price of the desktop, and note that people spend a large fraction of their income to buy a desktop in the first place. Microsoft does not price their software according to purchasing power, instead it does a straight conversion of $$ to Rupees.

    If Microsoft offers a cheaper Windows for a lesser price, people will just keep pirating the 'proper' OS for free. And sometime later, they will migrate to Linux when they find that Linux can offer them pretty much the same functionality. If MS wants people to use Windows and PAY for it, all they need to do is offer an uncrippled OS for a price that is affordable in India.

    Note to Microsoft: People don't want to buy your crippled software, even if it cheap.

    --
    "When the only tool you own is a hammer, every problem begins to resemble a nail." - Abraham Maslow (1908-1970)
    1. Re:Why this won't work by MrAnnoyanceToYou · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If you sold Microsoft licenses in India for cheaper, you would see them on eBay for minimal prices as well. Microsoft's in a lose-lose here right up until they start suing the companies big enough to really regret not changing OS's and wealthy enough to afford it.... The question only exists as to whether they'll be able to manipulate the Indian legal system as effectively as they have the US legal system.

      --
      My little site.
    2. Re:Why this won't work by cnettel · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Is the price of hardware that highly differentiated that you get a state-of-the-art P4 desktop machine, with no Windows, for $200 in India?

      Ruling out all P4s and old Athlons may be a bit excessive, but do you truly say that those CPUs ruled out by this limit would be an option in a system at this price point?

    3. Re:Why this won't work by alphakappa · · Score: 2, Insightful

      f you sold Microsoft licenses in India for cheaper, you would see them on eBay for minimal prices as well.

      You are talking about selling legal copies of Windows on eBay. The simple way out is to brand the copies sold in India as Windows - India edition, with no other differences. Make sure that the license says that the India edition can be sold only in the Indian subcontinent - that way no one would be able to sell them on eBay legally unless the buyer is in India.

      Before someone says that a licence is not going to stop someone from selling it outside India - note that we are talking about selling it legally - if we talk about pirated editions, then it doesn't matter what Microsoft sells them for - the cost is always $0.

      --
      "When the only tool you own is a hammer, every problem begins to resemble a nail." - Abraham Maslow (1908-1970)
    4. Re:Why this won't work by dpilot · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You miss the point of outsourcing in your post.

      The whole point of outsourcing is to PAY India-scale wages to your workers,
      but at the same time, PRICE your projects according to US-scale prices.

      Never mind that it's inconsistent, unsustainable, stupid, shortsighted, or any other such adjective one might care to mention. At the endpoint of the current outsourcing rage, in the US for the most part the only high-paid workers will be executives, and the rest will work at barely above minimum wage, which will still not have moved up. When that happens, the market for those fancy products will be gone, because nobody will be able to afford them. Then the execs can kiss their companies goodbye.

      I know that's not really a realistic scenario. I know that there are other highly-paid service jobs, like Doctors, Lawyers, etc. But even with what can realistically come to pass, IMHO it could get pretty unpleasant.

      --
      The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
  24. Marketing Geniuses by lheal · · Score: 2, Interesting

    At the risk of sounding new here, I am amazed at the mindset. Whatever happened to making the best product you can and trying to sell as much of it as you can? The idea at Microsoft appears to be to sell your product as much as you can by making it perform poorly compared to itself. Or something like that.

    Imagine being the engineers tasked with writing the feature that disables the OS on "advanced" CPUs. What pride they must have in their work.

    Then consider the conversation between the marketing guru and his twelve-year-old son. "So, Dad, what did you do at work today?". What pride they must have in their work.

    Then consider the poor sap who buys XP Starter Edition and finds out that it won't start. He can't return it, having opened it. All he can do is put it on EBay and hope he doesn't get sued.

    --
    Raise your children as if you were teaching them to raise your grandchildren, because you are.
    1. Re:Marketing Geniuses by OverflowingBitBucket · · Score: 4, Insightful

      At the risk of sounding new here, I am amazed at the mindset. Whatever happened to making the best product you can and trying to sell as much of it as you can? The idea at Microsoft appears to be to sell your product as much as you can by making it perform poorly compared to itself. Or something like that.

      Imagine being the engineers tasked with writing the feature that disables the OS on "advanced" CPUs. What pride they must have in their work.

      They are effectively competing against themselves with the cheaper product and have to make sure it isn't too good. I'm not sure it is a matter of shame, just trying to capture an additional market segment.

      For example, with my software I have a number of different editions, effectively free, budget, and full (I call them the Free, Silver and Gold Edition). It took a decent amount of extra work to develop the Free and Silver Editions, and this was done by disabling features that would have been simpler to just leave in. Some people are simply not going to want to fork out for the Gold Edition, so if I can give most of what they want through one of the Silver Editions, at least I made a sale when otherwise I wouldn't have. But the danger is that the Silver Editions and the Gold Edition do compete with each other. If I leave too much in the Silver, everyone will buy that, and the Gold sales will suffer.

      I think the general gist in both cases is to make a product that is good enough for people who don't want the full version, but not so good that it affects the sales of the full version.

    2. Re:Marketing Geniuses by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Imagine being the engineers tasked with writing the feature that disables the OS on "advanced" CPUs. What pride they must have in their work.

      back in the old days of DEC and VAX/VMS, there were 2 models of VAX (780 and something else; forget the exact numbers). they were sold as systems that were 'fast' and 'faster'. what was the diff? every few machine instructions, there were NO-OP's inserted to slow things down on purpose! no other technical diffs. none!

      but - if you bought the slower box and paid to upgrade it, it was 2 things - new skins (color change, I think; at the least it was a model # change in the labelling). they'd change out some/all of the backplane just to make it look (to the customer) like 'real stuff' was upgraded. but it was really just firmware on the cpu boards. ha!

      maybe it was the VAX 750, now that I think about it.

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    3. Re:Marketing Geniuses by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Imagine being the engineers tasked with writing the feature that disables the OS on "advanced" CPUs

      thought of another analogy. I once bought a sony cd player. back in the early 90's, when digital out (spdif) was still kind of new and high-end.

      there were 2 models of cd players. the regular and the 'es' version. the es version had coaxial spdif out. the regular one did not.

      I ordered the repair manual ($10 at sony - great deal!) and found that my pc board was identical to the one in the ES model. just that it didn't have a few parts on the board. but sony being cool (back then) you could order repair parts (as a regular joe, not even a service center ID needed) and then upgrade your own.

      I got a good laugh from one of the parts, though. it was (really) called inductor, small. really! not even a Henry value on it. just 'inductor, small'. basically a single loop of wire thru a ferrite bead.

      ordered the 3 parts I needed, soldered them in and all was well - I now had the digital output that the more expensive ES version had.

      this is more common in the industry than people realize. the idea of making a high end product 'full' and then removing features for lower-end versions.

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    4. Re:Marketing Geniuses by OverflowingBitBucket · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Crippleware is what I call it.

      Happens to be one of the reasons I don't use much commerical software, and kind of avoid it like the plague.

      Indeed, that is an appropriate name for it too. But sometimes relying on human nature isn't enough. Humans can be such terribly selfish things. ;)

      For example, I developed my software full-time over eighteen months. This wiped out my savings and left me in a fair amount of debt. It is a bit unreasonable to expect a single person to shoulder the entire burden of the development when a number of people reap the benefits. Hence I sell the software. Maybe one day I will make enough back to try this whole crazy experiment again. ;) But I can't just give away the uncrippled version and rely on kindness. One shining example of this related to one of the beta testers for the software. He loves the games, plays them all the time apparently. Submitted no feedback, and has no intention of pitching in for the final release because the beta was uncrippled. Whoops. And he's not the only one. People are very good at taking if there is no benefit to giving. Now if I could count on the generosity of enough people, who cares if most people benefit for nothing? But the problem is that I can't.

      As for avoiding crippleware, I'd have to disagree. What I can't stand is when people sell something without giving you a chance to try it out beforehand. That really sucks. Time limitations are a pain too, I hate the presumption that I can dedicate 30 days to trying something out; my free time is limited and sporadic. But trial versions are a good thing. Certainly something to be encouraged. Much better than nothing at all.

    5. Re:Marketing Geniuses by ScrewMaster · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I'll give you another example of this kind of thinking. About twenty-five years or so ago, my father was systems manager working on HP3000 systems (MPE, and all that) for a State of Illinois database installation. They had a ton of Hewlett-Packard disk subsystems there, and they decided to upgrade them ... I believe they ordered double their existing capacity on several of the units. Out comes the HP technician, and he just went down the line of disk drives, opened their rear panels, reached in and flicked a switch. Voila! Twice the storage. He showed Dad where the switch was, and said that they were welcome to switch the rest of them on the same way, but that HP wouldn't service them if they did.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
  25. What am I supposed to run this on? by Saeed+al-Sahaf · · Score: 2, Informative

    I dont get this. EVERYONE (well, most) have p4s an athalons. What am I supposed to run this thing on?????

    --
    "Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck
  26. Re:Replace CPUID instruction system call? by OverflowingBitBucket · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I imagine that most people who would use a cracked version of the Starter Edition would just choose to use a cracked Pro Edition anyway.

  27. Another reason to use OSS by MikeCapone · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This is just another example of why OSS is the way to go in developing countries. I even think that this move is condescending from microsoft (and it isn't the first time).

    --
    Treehugger? Treehugger... Treehugger!
  28. pricing method by pyro101 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Seems like an interesting way to price their product. The faster your CPU the more you should spend on the OS. Similiar to taxes in most places the more you make the more you should be able to give in taxes hence the higher your tax rate. Hopefully it will be available stateside also. It would be nice to set up cheap computers, running windows, around my house that could control my home automation. Be simplier then the terminal based version that I have been looking at. http://www.zanware.com/

  29. Economics People! by Adelph · · Score: 2, Informative

    This is called price discrimination. It allows you to extract maximum profit from people (particularly those who are unwilling/unable to pay the same as the market price). Microsoft is making the simple (and correct!) assumption that people buying budget PCs are more price conscious and therefore will be more enticed by a lower priced operating system. Remember, NOBODY in the US is going to get their hands on a copy of this OS. As long as Dell is selling fully functional PCs with XP Home for $300 or less, this OS is all about foreign markets where consumers can't afford US priced PCs.

  30. Leverage War by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I remember when MS introduced Windows 3.0 in 1990 (the first "working" version of the OS), it ran on DOS - or any of the competing DOS-compatibles. However, Win3.0 was hardcoded to fail (quit with a vague error) if it found that it was running on, I believe, "DRDOS". Because DRDOS was the #1 competitor to MS-DOS, and part of Microsoft's strategy was to use demand for Windows to compete (unfairly) with DRDOS. Such bundling leverage of market dominance has made MS what it is today. AMD gets dissed because its popular with Linux, the only credible competition to Windows (Apple doesn't use AMD, so it's immune to that competition). I wonder what exactly MS has against the P4?

    --

    --
    make install -not war

  31. Whhaa... huh? by Tony · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ...it is designed for low-cost, entry-level desktop PCs running value-based processors...

    Uhm.... isn't it just MS-Windows XP with stuff ripped out? If so, then it is NOT "designed for low-cost, entry-level desktop PCs running value-based processors." It is designed for the exact same computers for which XP is designed.

    It's marketed for cheap-assed computers. But it was designed for x86 computers.

    --
    Microsoft is to software what Budweiser is to beer.
  32. they've already got it by alizard · · Score: 2, Interesting
    On your second point, I think that Microsoft ought to have an option for screens to go black on errors.

    But I think it's a bug, not a feature. Haven't you ever tried opening a Windows program and had the screen go black or the computer reboot?

    I think even the average user takes this as a "something is REALLY wrong" hint.

    --
    Tech Public Policy stuff
  33. Re:No by symbolic · · Score: 2, Insightful


    Having a screen go black merely covers up the problem. Yes, it makes Microsoft/Windows look better than it really is, but it leaves people with a false impression. What you call "obtrusive" I call "informative".

  34. Re:Not arbitrary. Calculated. by Gentlewhisper · · Score: 2, Informative

    This Pentium4/Athlon decision makes perfect sense - if someone can afford the higher-end processor, they can afford the higher priced OS.

    No it doesn't. Considering the Pentium 4 is a.. 5 years old processor?

    Coupled with the fact that the XP starter's edition is meant to curb piracy in countries where it is rampant, and there you go. A total foobar.

    I can buy a Pentium 4 Processor for AU$150, or a rather high end A64 CPU for about AU$200. I do not need to pay A$300 for Windows XP "Normal" edition.

    --
    Online backup with Mozy, sounds like Ozzie, but more!
  35. It's a starter editon of Windows! by ArcCoyote · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I can see why the designed it to only run on low-end CPUs. It locks the OS to the hardware it shipped with. Most of the low-end gear this version of Windows will be going on is non-upgradeable (some of these cheap boards even have the CPUs soldered on!) and who would want to pirate a very limited Windows? No one!

    On the other hand, if this starter edition is installed on a PC that is upgradeable, you'll also have to upgrade the OS if you want it to work with higher-end CPUs. How nice, but that's true for most "starter editions" of software.

  36. apparently you don't get it by saleenS281 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Note to you: apparently you don't get it. Microsoft sells this directly to PC makers, it doesn't matter if the end-user wants it or not. It doesn't matter if the end user pirates windows. Someone in india who pirates windows was going to do it if it was 200$ or 70$, it really doesn't matter, let's be realistic.

    M$ found a way to still make money, while giving manufacturers what they want: a PC they can advertise running windows. The PC makers really don't give a crap if it's a full version or not either. Joe public, whether in india or america or afghanistan hasn't a cluebie the difference between XP starter edition and XP pro.

    1. Re:apparently you don't get it by rm999 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yeah, but more computer manufacturers will begin installing linux or no OS at all on their computers (which is entirely legal) and then slip a cd-r of windows xp under the table. I have seen this happening in the US, and can only imagine how much easier it would be in India.

    2. Re:apparently you don't get it by alphakappa · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Note to you: apparently you don't get it. Microsoft sells this directly to PC makers, it doesn't matter if the end-user wants it or not.

      IT matters to the PC makers since they operate on extremely low margins that can be as low as $25-$50. Now why would someone put Windows -crippled edition (which no customer would want) for $15 when they can put XP-professional for free.

      --
      "When the only tool you own is a hammer, every problem begins to resemble a nail." - Abraham Maslow (1908-1970)
    3. Re:apparently you don't get it by alphakappa · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Joe public, whether in india or america or afghanistan hasn't a cluebie the difference between XP starter edition and XP pro.

      Trust me, they do. I know it's wrong to generalize, but here's a fundamental difference between a PC buyer in the US and a PC buyer in India. In the US, PCs are pretty much commodity items - people buy it the way they buy television sets, which means that many people just buy whatever the salesperson at Best Buy recommends to them.

      In India, from my experience, people do a lot of research before spending a large part of their savings on a PC. Which means that the model is recommended by some geek friend (and in India there are plenty of computer geeks to be found all over the place) and trust me - no one will ever recommend XP starter edition.

      The above statement is NOT intended to show how well informed the Indian buyer is compared to the American buyer. All I am trying to say is that the demographic in India that spends money on a PC is different from the one in the US.

      --
      "When the only tool you own is a hammer, every problem begins to resemble a nail." - Abraham Maslow (1908-1970)
  37. What did they learn? by stretch0611 · · Score: 2, Insightful
    You think Microsoft would have learned after the games they played with Windows for Workgroups 3.11 and DR. DOS.

    What did Microsoft learn?

    DR DOS was a threat to MS-DOS. Using windows 3.11 they put doubt into the minds of users that DR-DOS wasn't truly stable and compatible. Follwing this was a fierce second blow with windows 95 which finished off DR DOS. Eventually, after Microsoft killed DR DOS they settled out of court for an undisclosed sum. However this sum could never amount to a pittance compared to the billions that Microsoft made as a monopoly.

    Microsoft learned that playing games entrenches their monopoly and earns them billions in the long run.

    --
    Looking for a job?
    Want your resume written professionally?
    DON'T USE TUNAREZ!!!
  38. I'm not the biggest OSX fan, but.... by Klync · · Score: 3, Interesting

    ... sometimes, doesn't it help to design Hardware and Software as a single 'experience'?

    --

    ----
    Not to be confused with Col.
  39. No big deal by Senor_Programmer · · Score: 2, Insightful

    as long as this feature is prominantly displayed on the packagfing and all adverts.

  40. XP on low-end computers? by Dolda2000 · · Score: 2, Funny

    Do they mean that it's actually possible to run Windows on anything less than a P4 or Athlon?

  41. Should a cost of $15 be considered dumping? by UnapprovedThought · · Score: 2, Interesting

    ...PC makers have to pay only $15 to $35 for each copy, according to various PC makers in these markets. Windows XP Home costs $70 to $80 per copy and the Professional Edition costs even more.

    How will MS be able to recoup the expenses of researching IP related to expensive features like DRM and TC if they sell this so cheap?

    You could argue that they saved money by leaving features out of the Stunted Edition, but actually it costs more to create a separate edition than to make identical copies of the same disks. Did they leave DRM out? I doubt it (CPUID support is in there...).

    So, how low can the price go before someone claims that they are dumping?

  42. Re:News flash .. MS Windows is expensive. by alphakappa · · Score: 2, Informative

    And for reference, that £400 is a 24th my annual before tax income.

    And a Rs. 25,000 PC in India is an 8th of the annual income of a person earning Rs 200,000. Most people who buy PCs earn even less. So you get an idea how how expensive it is :-)

    --
    "When the only tool you own is a hammer, every problem begins to resemble a nail." - Abraham Maslow (1908-1970)
  43. Re:Many different solutions by protohiro1 · · Score: 4, Funny

    Is there anyway to reverse the polarity of that darlington transistor to direct a tachyon pulse through the optocoupler?

    --
    Sig removed because it was obnoxious
  44. Creative writing 101 by interstellar_donkey · · Score: 5, Funny

    Marketing person #1: You know, we have a real problem with piracy in developing nations.

    Marketing person #2: Why is that?

    Marketing person #1: I'm not sure. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that our OS costs more then most families make in a month.

    Marketing person #2: If they're poor, why do we even want them as customers?

    Marketing person #1: Because they're probably not going to be poor forever. Plus, there's like a billion people in India alone.

    Marketing person #2: A billion? Please, we're professionals here. Stop making up numbers like "billion" or "gazillion".

    Marketing person #1: Sorry about that. But there *are* lots and lots of people there. I think most of them do tech support for Dell computers for like a dollar a day.

    Marketing person #2: Wow. That is a lot. Well, we have to figure out a way to make money off them.

    Marketing person #1: I just got a great idea! Let's strip out some of the functions of our operating system and sell it really, really cheap over there.

    Marketing person #2: Awesome idea, dude. We can call it "Windows Jr."

    Marketing person #1: I don't know about that name... it sounds too much like IBM's PC Jr. and nobody liked that product. I mean, wireless keyboards? What kind of crazy person would want that?

    Marketing person #2: The PC jr? That was released like a gazillion years ago. What are you, 30 or something?

    Marketing person #1: Shhhh!!! I'm 31, but the boss thinks I'm 23.

    Marketing person #2: I'll keep my mouth shut if you buy us drinks after work, old man. How about we call it "Windows XP: The Revenge of the Sith". Wait, no, even better, "Windows XP: The Starter Edition"

    Marketing person #1: That's way better! I would have never thought of that on my own. I guess it's because I'm so old.

    Marketing person #2: I see a problem though. How can we strip down a product when 95% of our users never use the extras we bundle with Windows to begin with?

    Marketing person #1: We could pull out Internet Expolorer

    Both: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!

    Marketing person #2: That's rich old man. But seriously, how can we do it?

    Marketing person #1: We can make sure it only runs on obsolete computers.

    Marketing person #2: Of course!! Celerons, Durons... poor people use those, right?

    Marketing person #1: Heck if I know. I'm not poor.

    Marketing person #2: Then it's settled. We'll make a version of Windows XP, remove the "calculator" and "MS paint" applications, and sell it to poor people. We can even market it as an upgrade to Windows ME.

    Marketing person #1: Didn't you get the memo? We want people to use ME. That was one of the clauses with Gates' contract with the devil.

    Marketing person #2: Whatever. Let's go to the bar.

    --
    The Internet is generally stupid
  45. Re:Many different solutions by zolaar · · Score: 3, Funny

    Not without re-routing the EPS couplings on decks 9 through 12... oh, and manually re-aligning the capacitor junction grids in the starboard plasma conduits.

    I can have it done in twelve hours.
    [which, in Scotty-time, as you know, means 'done in six hours and re-affirmation of status as Miracle Worker']

    --
    One man's constant is another man's variable.
  46. I wonder what Intel/AMD have to say about this... by planetoid · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I'm more curious about what the chip manufacturers may have to say about this. Would they have a legal case to stand on against Microsoft doing this? Would they want to?

    I know it's in another country, but nonetheless, wouldn't it still negatively impact Intel's and AMD's markets in India in one way or another, in a potentially anti-competitive way even if Microsoft aren't themselves chipmakers?

    --
    Slashdot requires you to wait longer between hitting 'reply' and submitting a comment.