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NASA Discovers Space Spies From the 60's
Saeed al-Sahaf writes "In a room forgotten for more than thirty years at NASA's Cape Canaveral Air Force Station in Florida, NASA recently found suits for space spies. Originally thought to be Gemini suits, the manufacturer determined that they were suits from a short-lived Cold War-era military program to put a manned reconnaissance station in space. Begun in 1964, the Manned Orbiting Laboratory program was an Air Force initiative that would have sent Air Force astronauts to a space station in a Gemini capsule. After spending a few weeks in orbit, the crew would undock and return to Earth. An interesting blast from the past."
Because they don't want you to know what they really found.
Quoth TFA:
The spacesuit with identifying number 008 had the name "LAWYER" on the left sleeve. The suit was traced to Lt. Col. Richard E. Lawyer, a member of the first group recruited to be MOL astronauts in 1965. Records show that official ownership of this suit was transferred by NASA to the Smithsonian Institution in 1983. The suit itself has now been returned to the Smithsonian.
I thought the idea was to send lawyers in space WITHOUT environmental gear, sillies.
They also found the people inside the suits. They were so dedicated, they stayed at their positions until they died of thirst.
I feel better knowing that we had plans to spy on our Alien Overlords!!!
To bad our plans were revealed, do to the lack of tin foil hats in the mid 60's...
__________ Leave me alone I'm compiling a RPG II program on my S/36...Thanks to metamucil I'm a Regular Meta Moderator
It's so quaint to see the evidence of paranoia and insecurity from back in the 1960s. Glad to be around in the 2000s.
Acting stupid isn't much fun when there's someone around who knows better
Articles like this make me look forward to the 1960's..
They were really advanced.. and we're lame - we just have Internets.
--- We need more Ron Paul!
Holy smokes, they can build spaceships, land men on the moon, but they can't take an inventory? What else do they have laying around?
Stasis is death. Embrace change.
Spy on whom? Russian Martians?
You can't spell due to the flawed educational system.
Does anyone (preferably knowledgable) care to comment on that concept picture in the article @ NASA ?
In particular, i'm wondering about the following:
What do people think those pulsese going down to the planet are in a weird curly line?
That thing above the hurricane that appears to be shooting something into it ? What's that ?
The guy standing on the right side of the picture in the MOL who appears to be "fishing" for the incoming spacecraft... with a what.. a big magnet on a tether ?
Uh, we found some stuff that was from a project that is public knowledge. The fact that the suits still exist is not news either; it is not like they throw those kinds of things out. I don't think they are biodegradable.
Also, how about adding some better links for contect? It took about 2 seconds to find this: http://www.deepcold.com/deepcold/dyna_main.html
Humor from a Genetically Molested Mind
I guess that movie with Clint Eastwood was true after all!
Being concerned because your enemies are aiming a few tens of thousand nukes at you is not paranoid.
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
The reason the suits looked like Gemini era suits was because the MOL program was based on Gemini technology.
A Titan IIIC booster with a 'Blue Gemini' atop would launch with the space station afixed, they would do their observation, then the Gemini would detach and land. Later missions could dock with the existing observation platform when feasible.
The launches would have taken place from Vandenburg Air Force Base in California. This is needed to efficiently put spacecraft into polar orbit without overflying populated land during boost.
A launch site was created at Vandenburg to handle manned spacecraft launches, but the program was cancelled as the article says. What it doesn't say is that the same complex was refurbished in the 1980s as part of the effort to launch the Space Shuttle into polar orbit for military missions. That program was cancelled as well (following the Challenger destruction).
For people interested in MOL, go check out the X-20 Dynasoar. It was a related program that would have had a reusable spaceplane 15 years before the shuttle.
...which was a new branch of the military that was spun off from the Air Force, and continues to operate in secret to this day. Their first operational mission was to take care and control of the Ark of the Covenant, which remains in orbit to this day.
The most innovative aspect of the space suit was that it's made so your tuxedo doesn't wrinkle under it.
How cool is it that the suit # was 007.
So they had the Manned Orbiting Laboratory program, the Dyna-Soar program, and the USAF Space School. None of those survived the 1960s, although they were all good, workable ideas. The MOL incorporated the Gemini spacecraft, the best space flying machine to come out of NASA. (Mercury was the "man in a can" capsule, and Apollo was less maneuverable.)
As for the blue MH-7 suit, there's one of those on display at Wright-Patterson AFB.
Who thinks the space spying program stopped by mothballing those suits, just as America's space and spying budgets went through the roof?
--
make install -not war
Send one or to to the Smithsonian and put the rest on ebay. I bet if NASA unloaded all their old junk they could probably fund another R/C car mission to Mars.
This does raise the question again about what Space exploration is for. With George W stating that its about going to the Moon, then Mars and putting people on planets this is a lesson in how easy it is to put people into Orbit (but how much more expensive to get to the moon, Gemini v Apollo).
With elements like Hubble being decomissioned despite its achievements, and a lack of long range probes being planned the question has to be asked.
Is NASA a marketing campaign for US Military "dominance" of earth and space. Or about futhering Mankind. In the 60s the president gave a target of something that just seemed right (landing on the moon). In the 21st Century the best we aim to achieve is... what JFK wanted us to do in the 60s.
Imagine what MIT, Berkley, Cambridge, Moscow, Paris and a bunch of other top Universities could do in terms of pushing human achievement forwards if they had the budget that NASA gets.
An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
NASA are messed up if they can lose stuff in their own buildings for 40 years.
Cue amusing suggestions...
Back in the 40s and 50s, there was a lot of talk about doing things like surveillance (you can see a lot) and communications (a lot of people can see you) from orbit. One common assumption (which turned out to be correct) was that these things would be extremely important in the near future. Another assumption (which turned out to be totally wrong) was that this would be done by sending people to go live in orbit. Once there, they'd use photography, electronics, and other technology that wouldn't be much more advanced that what people were familiar with. You can see this in Arthur C. Clarke's original proposals for communications satellites and in fiction from Clarke, Heinlen, and others.
What really happened, of course, is that rocket technology progressed relatively slowly, while electronics progressed very rapidly. So long before it was practical to a space station in orbit, it was practical to put a simple electronic gadget in orbit that would do all those chores pretty cheaply. Kind of sad, really -- if building better rockets had been more of an economic and military necessity, we'd probably be the space-going civilization that eveybody back in the 50s assumed we would be.
Then again, the need to build smaller and more reliable electronics did a lot to jump-start the computer revolution -- so we mustn't complain too much!
It is highly likely that in the 60s, more programs were theorized than were ever really started (eg: the Orion space program), that many that were started were abandoned as people learned more about which avenues were worth pursuing, etc. And even after all that, many were likely highly classified. If forgotten about, there is no reason to believe anyone remembered to declassify them at any later date, even if they could have been.
In other words, I am not astonished they've found a few odd relics. What I am astonished by is that they're not reporting such finds so often that anyone could even be astonished by such finds.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
Sean Connery not Roger Moore!
No, most likely they did. From the article:
Other historical treasures found in the room include old film canisters, one flown shuttle main landing tire, electrical equipment, and various miscellaneous boxes.
Huh. Historical treasures, that just happened to be in a room which nobody said they had a key to. Huh.
Records show that official ownership of this suit was transferred by NASA to the Smithsonian Institution in 1983. The suit itself has now been returned to the Smithsonian.
Anyone else starting to realize that the stuff (which spans decades, completely different programs, and sections of NASA) didn't just get up and walk (either from the Smithsonian, or more likely, from other areas at NASA, never getting to the Museum) to a locked closet nobody said they had keys for?
Sounds to me like someone at NASA was building up their own private collection, and used a room they thought they had the only key to, not realizing there was a master key system in use.
Please help metamoderate.
What, did the room dissapear in some sort of visual vortex, then just reappear?
Or did it have a 'dont not disturb' sign on it all these years? And no one noticed until it fell off due to dry rot..
It just sounds fishy...
---- Booth was a patriot ----
The USSR actually DID have a series of manned military space stations that orbited during the 1970s. It was known as the Almaz project (more info here). In addition to reconnisance equipment on board, they also carried anti-satelitte weaponry.
The USSR also had some other scary space plans for military space stations. I mean, it even LOOKS sinister, painted black and all...
-- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
Here's what the MOL might've looked like . . .
Download Knoppix and remaster your own distro!!!!
This historically accurate movie depicts a Space Shuttle mission to repair and re-orbit a Russian "communications" satellite.
I smell a cover-up. Better call my man Mulder!
It's trivial news that they found some artifacts that they didn't know they had. They're of some small historical value, and therefore makes page 37 of the paper.
The fact that they have a suit labeled "007" allows them to put "James Bond" in the headline, booting it up to page 7 of the newspaper and page 1 of the newspaper for nerds (even if it's hardly "news that matters".)
Mmmm... space pies...
oh, wait...
Like, how many of these "room forgotten for more than thirty years" ARE there? Or maybe the ten- and twenty-year rooms are just lame. And where's the forgotten room with all the robotic amazon women?
It is an unfortunate reality that unless the US and other countries of similar mindset must be able to militarize space when needed.
Now the reason I like GW's listed goal is that we have been parked in orbit for 40+ years and haven't budged except once to the moon. Sure we send probes out there but probes are not going to advanced space exploration in any meaningful array other than to say "hey, neat rocks here".
Establishing a presence on the moon will do much more than parking ourselves in a tincan in orbit. First off it implies more permanence. Also the moon provides many unique benefits to maintaining a presence in space that an orbital cannot.
Done right, and with luck it might be, private enterprise can use it as a stepping stone to further exploration and yes, exploitation of space.
We are getting no where concentrating on unmanned probes and orbital tin cans. We have three choices. Abandon space. Stick with orbit which doesn't fire the imagination much, or finally stake a spot off this rock. The moon is far enough and "exotic" enough to fire the imagination and marketing. That "baby step" will get us moving in the right direction.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
"That guy is just an empty suit"
They could uncork the vengeance of JHVH over hostile countries. Just so long as they don't have chariots of iron (Judges 1:19).
The 'thing above the hurricane' is a 6th grade style rendering of a spacecraft nuking Cuba.
Bad ass.
Is it just me, or if you look at this you can see a small spacecraft firing some sort of proyectile towards Earth? Left corner over the storm.
I love the headline, inaccurate as it is.
NASA Discovers Space Spies From the 60's
No, NASA discovers SPACE SUITS from the 60's. It's not like there were a bunch of astronauts tucked away in a closet somewhere waiting for the "go" signal.
That sounds awfy like whit thae *Stalinists* used tae say...
Yir no some kind o' *Communist*, are ye?
nothing to see, move along.
I take it the word "Coward" in your byline has special meaning here, troll.
So, go do you own homework, you fatuous ass, and come back and tell the world about how the Americans killed millions of their own people on the whims of a psychopathic leader, how millions more were held in gulags, and how the Americans conquered half of Europe and annexed into their empire. Tell me how the people of Berlin tore down a wall built by Americans.
moron. contemptible moron.
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
Sounds like a real life Moonranker. 007 would be proud.
I understand, and believe you. However, the VAX and its modems were most likely put there for a reason. Which is exactly my point- how did this seemingly random collection of objects get there in the first place?
First thing that pops to mind is someone building a private collection to sneak off-site piece at a time or something. They should have just pretended to have given up, slapped an alarm on the door, and waited to see who showed up.
Please help metamoderate.
What's up with the dept tag? Anyone know what it means?
Media that can be recorded and distributed can be recorded and distributed.
-kfg
Oh so it wasn't the native americans we brutally oppressed and put into gulags of their own, raped their women, infected them with small pox, etc. I know my ancestors were lying to me...
Let he who is without shame thow the first stone.
The Soviets eventually came to the same conclusion, only after blowing the big rubles on Almaz and military Salyuts.
Incidentally, the first successful US launch after Challenger was an SDI experiment that used guidance systems from existing guided missiles. Although it was about as rushed as the Polyus battle station you reference, it didn't require major gymnastics to achieve orbit, and provided Reagan with a negotiation advantage over Gorbachev... although I don't think he fully realized the size of it. For a change, the Russians were in the position of attempting to field a system we could all too easily counter, given that the Delta 180 SDI test articles were mostly off the shelf, and could be cheaply integrated and lofted by the trainload, had the need arisen.
Luke, help me take this mask off
Third party here. You are quite ignorant also. You demand from general comments exact equivalents despite apparency that reputation was the subject. That is the epitome of ignorance and laziness of thought. Outside of the propaganda popularised by fools similar to yourself the reality is that no national populace-not in Vietnam, Korea, or even Columbia-anywhere prefers occupation and that is certain regardless of the propaganda of the US as some benevolent or somehow beneficial agent. It has never acted for anything but the international markets for its businesses-opposition to Communism-with the necessary cover-pearl harbor with fewer than 3000 deaths justifying several hundred thousand to open Europe to US products that again happens for barely that to prompt efforts leading to invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan that had developed according to the local governments official position to resist or had temporarily imposed to provide reasion for invasion those US international businesses.
Sorry, was I talking about occupation?
Since you seem incapable of constructing a coherent sentence, it is no wonder your logic and poltical insight are so lame.
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
So, you're telling me that no one had the right, today, to do what needs to be done because of something in their past? That their great-grandparents' behavior should have precluded American involvement in WW2?
I hear that alleged logic all the time. I simply do not understand it. We are not responsible for the actions of our ancestors.
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
If that's what your ancestors told you, then yes, they were lying.
I was intrigued by your remark about Project Pluto: "Okay, the actual design of this one was a little scary." So I had to look it up. Talk about understatements. If any of these technologies deserved to be "buried and forgotten," surely this one did.
I enjoy this little nugget:
No wonder NASA has budget problems. I wonder if there are any bags of money lying around Cape Canaveral that they've forgotton about. "Hey guys, look at this. Some really expensive real estate that we never use. Is that Jimmy Hoffas body in there?"
n/t
You lack education. Read it again fool and do not assume posturing as you are fond of-only think and derive meaning from the connection of ideas. That is the message to you as you fail to realise it completely.
no text
Khrushchev didn't bang his shoe while yelling, "We will bury you!" Those were two separate incidents. Since you're so keen for others to educate themselves, maybe you could read up on what really happened.
Certainly Krushchev was an aggressive leader. But today the U.S.'s stated aim is to not only maintain military supremacy, but to build up so much military strength that no other nation can even consider trying to compete. If you don't live in America, that sounds a lot like a plan to rule the world, too.
I should buy some cement.
RTFA, it said "a facility known as the Launch Complex 5/6 museum". IIRC, this is part of the Air Force Space Museum at CCAFS.
You are assuming falsely that a counter argument against subjects of the past is inapplicable because it also references subjects of the past-you are an illogical fool. The ancestors left current situations as they are-in that respect we must be responsible for their mistakes and overindulgences. That means bringing into general conformity the remains of the former client states and indirect client states of both the CCCP and US as well as the current client states of the US at a standard of greater sovereignty and material wealth at cost to short term interests for the preservation of long term interests. Militarism and preference of use of force as result of diplomacy causes short term success at cost to the long term-the results of which are evident in the fall of the former empires of the nations of Europe. Militarism is always wrong in that respect.
Very well.
If I find out that one of your ancestors stole from, robbed, raped or murdered one of my ancestors, I'm coming after you.
You grossly misinterpret my previous comment. We are inevitably responsible for the effects of the past actions of the ancestors as they shaped the present world that we must all be responsible in. As we must be responsible in these matters of war and peace we must naturally base our efforts from the situation and thus we must be responsible for all of the results of those actions-principal of those are the mistakes and overindulgences that produced hostility from negative reputations in international relations regarding particular events that have characterised every nation. That is plainly evident from the comments as previously written; do not feign ignorance.
Can you FUCKING believe this? Dinged for "off topic" but every bitch who brings anything besides the subject of Peanut Butter or perhaps Fingernails around to GW Bush's Evildoings gets a free pass. What a sickness. I reckon Bill Fucking CLinton had 8 stellar years of applying lotion to the buttocks of every piece of shit leader on the globe? Oh wait, it must be because you made $90K when he was prez and now you don't? No, it must have been 8 years of the news just not feeding you that negative vibe, MA-AN!! Wait, your dog didn't shit as much on that good part of the grass back then? If none of the above, it must be because that 4 year old Civic would have no business in your garage if anyonebutbush was in office?
Karma: Bad
So why didn't the article name the manufacturer of the suits? ...according to the suits' manufacturer... and The manufacturer, however,...
Here in Germany, I get to talk quite a lot with Americans who claim that "they" freed "us". Having never been freed by any American, especially not the ones I'm talking to, I consider that just as invalid.
As a state gets corrupt, its laws multiply; the most corrupt states have the most numerous laws. (Tacitus, Annales 3:27)
We have no responsibility for the behavior of our ancestors, only our own behavior.
Diplomacy will not always succeed because, one, we are an imperfect specis, and, two, many people and governments seek ends that cannot be achieved via diplomacy. If someone wishes yyou dead, or wants to occupy your house and your land, and acts on those desires by attacking, diplomacy will do you no good. Before the attack, diplomacy will typically be seen as a sign of weakness and will be manipulated accordingly.
The way to ensure greater peace in the world is to reduce the sovereignty of individual nations, convince individual people to abandon their atavistic feelings of nationalism and loyalty to mythic homelands, and give a democratically elected supranational body the legal and physical means to adjudicate disputes and enforce their resolution, by forcce of arms if needed.
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
We're not responsible for the behavior of our contemporaries, either. Only ourselves.
As for those Americans who "freed" you, you know full well that they are using a figure of speech to reference their country's actions in the past. I've lived in Europe and came across quite a few rather embarrassing Americans. Remember, though, that our view of European history is one of thousands of years of conflilct, oppression, poverty and ignorant faith covered by a thin veneer of art and culture produced for the exploitive wealthy; and that the imperialism of the 18th and 19th centuries and the wars and ideologies of the 20th century were the products of that society. Europe, after commiting suicide in the 1940's, appears to be on the right track at last, but when Americans survey the problems we all face in the world today, we tend to see a sorry mess left behind by the Europe of the past. The U.S. has not ben inactive on the world scene, obviously, following WWI, but it was Europe that spawned totalitarianism, Communism, fascism, the worship of the state, dictatorial monarchies, religious oppression, the slave trade, the colonizing of the Americas, Africa and Asia and many of today's ethnic wars after ignorant and racist colonial borders were established.
No Europeans today are responsible for any of that. But you should know that it is the filter through which Americans view your continent.
Our lack of responsibility for our ancestors' behavior derives from the impossiblity of our changing that behavior. Yet we do have a responsibility to examine their behavior before we ddetermine our own course of action.
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
True enough, but the same could be said for mercenaries. I think it's fair to say that if a situation needs a mercenary, theres probably something wrong with the system that created that situation.
You seem to have an astoundingly myopic view of WWII. Sure, cheering for the home team is nice and all, but for someone telling others to 'grow up', you seem to have a lot to learn about the real world. Free clue: WWII was won by the allies, not the U.S. One of those allies happened to be an "aggressive totalitarian conqueror with no respect for freedom or human rights".
I forget what 8 was for.
If one takes the statement, "the only thing that kept Bob from starving to death was the jar of pickles", and then and then the statement maker says that he didn't mean to imply Bob wasn't also eating cookies, do you feel like the statement was misinterpreted?
I forget what 8 was for.
"I hear that alleged logic all the time. I simply do not understand it. We are not responsible for the actions of our ancestors."
No, but you are responsible for any benefits you gained from the actions of your ancestors.
If my father illegally occupied the farm land of a neighbor's, and cultivated it well, and died and passed it down to me, then I have no right to it, and need to return it. In essence, whatever I gained from what my father gained from the stolen land (financially or otherwise), has to be compensated for.
I'm not responsible for his stealing it, but once he passes it down to me, it will be my duty to return it.
Beetle B.
>> ...you are responsible for any benefits you gained from the actions of your ancestors.
No, you are not.
In the hypothetical farm example you cite, if your father acted illegally to acquire the property, then he also acted illegally in passing it to you, and you acted illegally in accepting it. You should be subject to whatever law applies.
In the more general case, however, we have no obligation to redeem what we, or others, consider the wrongdoing of our ancesters. First, who is to determine what ancestral behavior was wrong and what was correct? Second, how far back in time shall we go? Are the residents of Tunis entitled to restitution from the Italians because the Romans destroyed Carthage? Are the residents of Mexico entitled to payment from Spain because the Conquistadors conquered their ancestors? If so, what about people whose ancestors suffered at the hands of the people later conquered by the Spaniards? Are there people in West Africa who merit compensation from other West Africans because they captured their ancestors and sold them as slaves to Europeans and other Africans? The British and other Europeans commonly enslaved and bought and sold prisoners captured in war. Do they all owe each other compensation?
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
"and you acted illegally in accepting it. "
Which is what I meant. If you accept it, it's your responsibility to return it.
"Second, how far back in time shall we go?"
If there are clear effects of any event in the past, no matter how long, on the present, then it is not too long ago.
"Are the residents of Tunis entitled to restitution from the Italians because the Romans destroyed Carthage?"
If it can clearly be shown that someone is benefiting (at least financially) presently from the Romans' destruction of Carthage, or that the Tunisians are still suffering presently because of it, then the argument still applies.
"Are the residents of Mexico entitled to payment from Spain because the Conquistadors conquered their ancestors?"
Yes, if they are suffering now as a result of it (the natives, that is). The same applies to what the Spanish did in South America and British/French/Americans did to the natives in North America. According to many, a large number of those natives are still suffering because of what was done centuries ago. And many are even now demanding some form of restitution.
"Are there people in West Africa who merit compensation from other West Africans because they captured their ancestors and sold them as slaves to Europeans and other Africans?"
The question is, "What did those individuals gain"? If historically, they gained enough that it is clear they have some sort of edge over those they wronged (and what that edge is), then some reparations need to be made. If they really were only individuals, then the effect of what they gained will be hard to measure now, and from a practical perspective, the matter would have to be ignored.
Yes, your point is that in some cases, these issues are hard to gauge, and I agree. But when it isn't hard, then the argument should apply.
And I'm not necessarily suggesting a tit-for-tat protocol in the compensation. If the native Americans were wronged, one option is to give a disproportionately more amount of scholarship funds to them (they'd still need to achieve some merit to get it). An affirmative action for them, more or less.
The requirements of deciding what the criteria need be, and the compensation should be, is a matter for the legal system to formulate. I'm not pretending to know what would be considered just. Merely arguing that the principle should hold, and should be implemented wherever it is practical to do so. You yourself admitted this when you said it would be illegal for me to take the stolen land.
" In the more general case, however, we have no obligation to redeem what we, or others, consider the wrongdoing of our ancesters."
That seems like double standards, though. Why would it be illegal for me to take the land my father passed down to me? This, BTW, was assuming that I do not know it's been stolen, but it can be demonstrated clearly enough to the law. If I do not know it's been stolen, I'm not guilty for stealing it. But once it becomes clear to me, I will be guilty for keeping it. I did not imply that I would be responsible for his stealing it in a karma sort of way.
I could return just the land. But if it has been thirty years since it was stolen, those folks were deprived a substantial source of income. It doesn't at all seem fair that they get only the land back. A portion of the profits made during all those years is entitled to them.
Beetle B.
You're arguing hypothetical scenarios based on your personal opinion. i don't believe in silly things like "a karma sort of way".
and for all your protests that something " doesn't at all seem fair", standards of fairness do, in fact, differ. That's what laws are for, among other things.
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
Your problem seems to be in reading comprehension. You have failed to comprehend the language of nearly every single post you have replied to-instead of counter argument you have make unjustified assumptions and created propaganda attacks against it rather than pursue a logical opposition. You may be as ignorant as that but it seems first that you must actually understand a post to respond validly so your comments are excusable on the single condition that you work to improve your reading comprehension before replying to any other past in the future. The statement is that of similar refusal of that status as a subject by making the "karma sort" explicitly not the subject. You have damned poor reading comprehension presently.
How do you feel about Palestine(Israel)? Aren't we doing exactly what you describe here? Should this be any different? If so, why?
What?