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Solar Sails And Space Propulsion

Doomie writes "The Economist has an interesting article about solar sails. It talks about the Russian ICBM that will launch Cosmos 1 (mentioned previously on /.) 'The first craft powered by solar-sail technology to orbit the Earth', and the link between this technology and interplanetary travel. Cosmos 1 will orbit Earth starting on June 21st and could, in theory, reach '200,000kph after three years of acceleration' due to the fact that 'particles of light, or photons, that strike a surface give it a tiny push'. The official homepage of the project has more details." Update: 06/18 18:57 GMT by Z : While space trains would be cool, that wasn't the intent of the story. Changed rails to sails.

134 comments

  1. Wow by wlowe84 · · Score: 1

    Solar rails???

    1. Re:Wow by Darvin · · Score: 2, Funny

      Looks like the spelling was derailed.

    2. Re:Wow by Rei · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yeah, I noticed that, too. Also incorrectly stated:

      Cosmos 1 will orbit Earth starting on June 21st and could, in theory, reach '200,000kph after three years of acceleration' due to the fact that 'particles of light, or photons,

      Actually, "in theory", the thing will fall apart in months because the mylar is not designed to withstand long-term solar exposure. A spacecraft designed for lasting longer could, in theory, reach those speeds.

      --
      Did he just go crazy and fall asleep?
    3. Re:Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While it isn't really the topic of this article, there was an article a while back about forming a 'rail' system in space.

      The rails would be lasers used to push solar sails between specific locations.

    4. Re:Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The rails would be lasers used to push solar sails between specific locations.

      Like, between the I/O port, the game grid, and the MCP?

    5. Re:Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, Solar Sails. If you need info about solar rails, please go to http://www.ithacahours.com/boyle.html. Thanks.

      Now just mod me up as '+5 informative', kthxbye!

    6. Re:Wow by mahmud · · Score: 2, Funny

      Am I the only one who thought of Interstella 999?

    7. Re:Wow by Pollardito · · Score: 1

      it probably flew under the radar because it'd only be the 39th article about something "On Rails"

    8. Re:Wow by Spoukie · · Score: 1

      You mean Galaxy Express 999 and Interstella 5555? ;)

  2. "solar rails" by ImaLamer · · Score: 1

    New web development venture?

    Space trains?

    L. Ron Hubbard was right?

    1. Re:"solar rails" by AndroidCat · · Score: 1

      Maybe, listen to him, but remember that a backwards-running coocoo-clock is right four times a day.

      --
      One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
  3. 200,000kph after three years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    These solar sails really blow!

    1. Re:200,000kph after three years by Rosco+P.+Coltrane · · Score: 2, Funny

      These solar sails really blow!

      And you know what? when the sail decelerates, they really suck.

      Sorry...

      --
      "A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
    2. Re:200,000kph after three years by FidelCatsro · · Score: 1

      Wouldn't that be "they are Really Whack(ed)"

      --
      The only things certain in war are Propaganda and Death. You can never be sure which is which though
    3. Re:200,000kph after three years by N3TW4LK3R · · Score: 2, Informative

      I think it's important to note that this spacecraft will never reach these speeds because it's only designed to last a month or so, as can be read here:

      http://www.planetary.org/solarsail/timeline.html

      The flight of Cosmos 1 will not last long. Within a month the mylar sails will begin to degrade in the harsh sunlight, and the tubes supporting the blades will be losing pressure. It is possible that by this time the spacecraft will have risen to a high enough orbit that it will remain there, forever orbiting the Earth. It is more likely, however, that the orbit will slowly decay, and Cosmos 1 will end its days as a fireball in the Earth's atmosphere.

  4. Spelling errors by xwizbt · · Score: 4, Funny

    Isn't this supposed to be a professional website? I'm not the first poster, I realise, which means I'm certainly not the first person to notice the spelling error. But... hasn't this gone past an editor? I mean... what is going on here. Every post has an error of some kind... spelling, grammar... anything...



    I'd offer my services as a proofreader but I don't think I want to be associated with something so consistently shoddy...

    1. Re:Spelling errors by Rosco+P.+Coltrane · · Score: 4, Funny

      Well you know, sometimes you can mix things up when you're in a hurry. My guess is Zonk had just sniffed a rail when he accepted the story...

      --
      "A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
    2. Re:Spelling errors by helioquake · · Score: 1

      Editors rarely check grammar or misspelling. If you are a paid customer, you do get to inform editors of such typographical errors...if you want, that is.

      Actually I find that typo entertaining. Solar sail, solar rail. Amazing what one character can do to mislead.

    3. Re:Spelling errors by iced_773 · · Score: 0
      I don't think I want to be associated with something so consistently shoddy

      Since you spot the errors so well, and could correct them as proofreader, you wouldn't be associated with something as consistently shoddy because it wouldn't be shoddy anymore.

    4. Re:Spelling errors by iced_773 · · Score: 0

      One other thing: I just realized that the OP had a mispelling himself - interpret my comment sarcastically.

    5. Re:Spelling errors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No , I would rather continue to believe you were being a prat

    6. Re:Spelling errors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The z is the misspelling. Genuine English, Commonwealth English, uses s for sounds of s and z for sounds of zed. It is the bastardised English advocated by Noah Webster that is at fault for opposite usage of z for sounds of s and no clear distinction except in borrowed words in American English.

    7. Re:Spelling errors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Amazing what one character can do to mislead.

      Yeah, punny situations can result.

    8. Re:Spelling errors by dextr0us · · Score: 1

      If you're still reading the website, then obviously they've got something you want. If you think this website is so shoddy, hurt them where it counts... stop coming and giving ad impression dollars to the editors. Otherwise, you just sound like you're bitching.

      --
      "Martha Stewart can lick my Scrotum......do i have a scrotum?" -- Sharon Osbourne
    9. Re:Spelling errors by hunterx11 · · Score: 1

      Do Britons really say "real iced?" Haf they no focal chorts or something?

      --
      English is easier said than done.
    10. Re:Spelling errors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is, so far as I have heard it, pronounced as its is written and pronounced excepting regional dialects in a slightly less less harsh form of the sound Americans assign to z; it is simply written more accurately using the s as z is not the same sound as exists in the word.

    11. Re:Spelling errors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You must be new here.

    12. Re:Spelling errors by luchaugh · · Score: 1

      Score 4: Funny.

      Um..I think this dude was serious. And spot on.

  5. New Ruby Application Framework? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Slashdot has Ruby on Rails on the brain...

  6. So let me guess by Rosco+P.+Coltrane · · Score: 3, Funny

    Union Pacific is to build the ship?

    --
    "A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
    1. Re:So let me guess by PakProtector · · Score: 1

      I'm going to go ahead and contact White Star lines about rates...

      --

      Edward@Tomato - /home/Edward/ man woman
      man: no entry for woman in the manual.
      "Qua!?"

  7. the article (non-free) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    Sail of the century
    Jun 16th 2005
    From The Economist print edition

    One small step into orbit may be one giant leap for interplanetary travel

    Rick Sternbach, The Planetary Society

    ON JUNE 21st, a Russian nuclear submarine is due to launch an intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM) from beneath the surface of the Barents Sea in the Arctic Ocean. Fortunately, this will not be the opening volley in a global thermonuclear war. Rather, it is intended to open up a new age of space exploration.

    The ICBM's payload is Cosmos 1, an experimental spacecraft being launched by the Planetary Society (a space-advocacy group founded in 1980), in conjunction with NPO Lavochkin (a Russian firm which built the craft) and the Makeev Rocket Design Bureau (which modified the ICBM). If the mission, which will cost $4m and has been paid for entirely by private subscription, is successful, Cosmos 1 will become the first craft powered by solar-sail technology to orbit the Earth.

    Solar sails rely on the fact that particles of light, or photons, that strike a surface give it a tiny push. Ideally, such sails should be as big as possible, to maximise the amount of sunlight collected, and as reflective as possible, because a photon bouncing off a perfectly reflective sail produces twice as much thrust as one absorbed by a non-reflective sail. Even so, the thrust generated is tiny: a sail with an area of one square kilometre would feel the same force that a kilogram weight exerts on a table on Earth. But there is no air resistance in the vacuum of space, and the sun shines continuously. Slowly but surely, the light-propelled tortoise outruns the rocket-driven hare, reaching 200,000kph after three years of acceleration.

    The Planetary Society has details of the forthcoming launch of Cosmos 1. The Makeev Rocket Design Bureau modified the ICBM which will carry the craft.

    Solar sails would thus be especially useful for journeys to distant planets or vastly more distant stars, as they do not need to carry any fuel with them. But while they have lived in the imaginations of scientists and science-fiction writers for over a century, their track record in real life has been limited. The Japanese Aerospace Exploration Agency has tested the unfurling of solar sails on sub-orbital rockets, but no one has put solar sails into orbit. Cosmos 1 should change that and, if it works, it will prove the feasibility of the technology for future missions.

    Eight triangular sails arranged like the petals of a flower will propel the craft. Each of the sails is 15 metres long, and in total they span 600 square metres--roughly the size of the penalty area on a football pitch. During launch, the sails will be rolled up like so many sleeping bags. Once the ground crew has decided that the craft is in a stable orbit, though, a series of tubular "masts" will be inflated that will unfurl the sails as they expand.

    Solar sails require special materials if they are to reflect sunlight efficiently while weighing as little as possible. They must also be able to fold up easily into a small space. Cosmos 1's sails are made from plastic sheets just five microns (millionths of a metre) thick. That is about a quarter of the thickness of a plastic dustbin liner. The plastic in question, Mylar, is coated with aluminium to make it reflective. Mylar is perhaps more familiar from its use in helium-filled party balloons.

    If all goes as planned, the spacecraft will go into an orbit that flies over the Earth's poles. Four days later, the sails will be deployed. Once this has happened, the team will monitor Cosmos 1's altitude. The sails are able to swivel slightly, and the ground crew can tilt them individually in order to catch the most sunlight. The resulting increase in the altitude of the orbit will indicate that the sails are indeed feeling the sun's push.

    Provided all this works well, the team will then try one last experiment. In order to use solar sails to travel to the outer planets, where the sun's l

    1. Re:the article (non-free) by atlep · · Score: 1

      Ideally, such sails should be as big as possible, to maximise the amount of sunlight collected, and as reflective as possible, because a photon bouncing off a perfectly reflective sail produces twice as much thrust as one absorbed by a non-reflective sail.

      So, the photon hits the sail with the speed of light. And leaves the sail again at the speed of light. The energy transfered to the sail from this action comes from ..... where???

    2. Re:the article (non-free) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      from... the photon. Its energy is proportional to its wavelength, which will decrease (get redder) as the energy is transfered to the sail.

    3. Re:the article (non-free) by JohnFluxx · · Score: 1

      No extra energy is needed. Before the momentum was for a stationary sail:

      momentum_of_particle + 0

      and after its:

      -momentum_of_particle + 2*momentum_of_particle

      Where 2*momentum_of_particle is now in the sail.

      Both before and after have the same momentum.

    4. Re:the article (non-free) by atlep · · Score: 1

      This red shift always happens when a photon is reflected by a perfect mirror?

    5. Re:the article (non-free) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      > This red shift always happens when a photon is reflected by a perfect mirror?

      Yes, but only if the mirror is moving in the opposite direction from the reflected light (in this case as a direct result of the reflection).

      Along the sames lines, if you shine a flashlight into space, an observer in orbit would see your light red-shifted because it lost energy escaping from the gravity well.

    6. Re:the article (non-free) by atlep · · Score: 1

      Thanx, that makes some sense.

  8. WFT? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Whoever posted the link to the Article failed to comprehend the fact that I have to pay and register to view it - so please why don't you also publish your username and password so others can also see it.

    Not all of us /.ers are rich enough to afford to pay for the thousands of rip-off subscriptions.

    1. Re:WFT? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      You tried to read the article?? You must be new here.

    2. Re:WFT? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      why don't you just STFU and stop trying to ruin for everyone what little we get?

      oh, and a big FU to slashdot for making it EVEN HARDER to toss up a meaningful comment. Got so many users here, you're turning em away, eh?

    3. Re:WFT? by Spoukie · · Score: 1

      Here is a Washington Post article about the same thing. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/artic le/2005/06/19/AR2005061900653.html

  9. Metric conversion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    200,000kph = 200,000 km/h

    1. Re:Metric conversion by Rhinobird · · Score: 1

      200,000 Km/h is 39,767,756.3 rods per hour

      --
      If Mr. Edison had thought smarter he wouldn't sweat as much. --Nikola Tesla
  10. Rails and Sails by antiaktiv · · Score: 1, Informative

    The similarities are striking, in that with both solar rails and solar sails, you don't have much option what direction you want to go.

    1. Re:Rails and Sails by MyLongNickName · · Score: 4, Informative

      Untrue. By changing the angle of the surfaces reflecting the sunlight, one can change direction. Admittedly, this is like turning the Titantic with a spatula. But given enough time, you can change direction.

      --
      See my journal for slashdot ID's by year. Mine created in 2005. http://slashdot.org/journal/289875/slashdot-ids-by-year
    2. Re:Rails and Sails by antiaktiv · · Score: 1

      Informative was definitely not the modding i was going for there.

    3. Re:Rails and Sails by cahiha · · Score: 1

      Actually, you can fly anywhere you want, including towards the sun.

    4. Re:Rails and Sails by GileadGreene · · Score: 1
      Not true.

      The acceleration produced by a sail is always (ignoring sail imperfections) normal to the sail surface. As a result, solar sails are able to maneuver by varying the angle of between the sail plane and the incident sunlight. Since a solar sail has the ability to produce an acceleration component in the direction of its orbit velocity vector, it can manipulate its orbit.

      There's a very nice Java applet that simulates solar sail orbit dynamics available here, if you want to play around with maneuvering a solar sail (I recommend stepping up the "tempo" to 3x, and increasing the sail lightness factor - the slider at the bottom left - so that you can see results in a reasonable amount of time).

    5. Re:Rails and Sails by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      I am curious. On a sailboat, you have either side boards, a centerboard, or a hull design (some of the catermarins) that prevent sideways slippage for when you are beating or reaching to the wind. How will this work? What will prevent the craft doing more of a run?

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    6. Re:Rails and Sails by 0WaitState · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Two things: the sails are maneuverable, so you can get different thrust vectors within a certain rangle of angle.

      More importantly, you have solar gravity pulling you in the exact opposite direction of the photon pressure. So, to go towards the sun, just use the solar sail to kill some of your orbital momentum. This also works around smaller bodies such as the earth, assuming you already are in orbit (which is a given for the Cosmos I satellite).

      --

      Remain calm! All is well!
    7. Re:Rails and Sails by thorndt · · Score: 1

      With (wind) sailing, modern sails can allow a sailboat to travel anywhere from close-hauled (typically 45 degrees into the wind) to a run (dead away from the wind).

      --
      - The race is not [always] to the swift, nor the battle to the strong. -
    8. Re:Rails and Sails by qbwiz · · Score: 1

      Orbital mechanics will do a lot of the work: to go to a higher orbit, aim the reflected light behind you; to go to a lower orbit, aim the reflected light in front off you. You can't really tack, but you can maneuver pretty well, given enough time.

      --
      Ewige Blumenkraft.
    9. Re:Rails and Sails by MyLongNickName · · Score: 1

      I am far from an expert. However, I think you will have a lot of "run" when you use a simple mirror model. Like the spatula turning the titantic analogy.

      More complex mirror configuration (light reflecting off more than one mirror) could be used to mitigate this effect. However, solar pressure is still very small compared to the enormous kinetic energy such a sail would build over a period of months or years. Don't expect these things to spot an asteroid, veer out of the path of danger, and then get right back on track.

      My guess is that if these things ever do make it as a main stream propulsion system, it will be married to a small chemical propulsion device for such events. Chemical is much more suited for short blasts of intense energy, but much less suited for the long haul.

      Then again, fission energy may beat both if we can get over some of our societal hangups.

      --
      See my journal for slashdot ID's by year. Mine created in 2005. http://slashdot.org/journal/289875/slashdot-ids-by-year
    10. Re:Rails and Sails by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      I would think that if orbiting earth, the craft must be capable of doing a tack (and a jib). Basically this craft is expected to be used in orbiting the earth. As such, I would think that it would require a tack (and a jib, but that is easy).

      Otherwise, about the only way that I can imagine this working, is if you use the sail for propulsion during a run, possibly a reach, and expect that at best, you use the sail for slight control during a beat(perhaps as a rudder would).

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    11. Re:Rails and Sails by Deadstick · · Score: 1

      If you want to fly toward the sun, you rotate the sail at such an angle that the arriving light gets reflected forward along the direction of the orbital motion. That reduces the orbital speed, which causes the opposite side of the orbit to pass closer to the sun -- in other words, you've done what amounts to a very small retro burn.

      If you rolled up the sail at this point, you would pass through the same point one rev later...but if you keep it positioned, you will gradually spiral inward.

      rj

    12. Re:Rails and Sails by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      Yes, that is called a beat in sailing. But to prevent sideways slipage, you need a sideboard, centerboard, or something similar to that. Otherwise, you get no forward motion.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    13. Re:Rails and Sails by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're so far off I almost think you're trolling.

      THIS IS NOT SAILING WITH A KEELBOARD IN A STATIC BODY OF WATER. IT IS ALSO NOT SAILING WITH AN AIRFOIL.

      You have two forces: solar photon pressure, and gravity (solar or earth, depending on which is closer). Photon pressure pushes you away from the sun if you angle the sail correctly. Gravity pulls you towards the sun (or earth) if you angle the sail to slow you down.

      Please stop complaining that your sailboat analogy doesn't work. Also try studying simple orbital mechanics. Hint: what happens when you're in orbit and you increase your speed? What happens when you slow your speed. 2nd hint: anything launched from the earth starts in two orbits: earth and solar.

    14. Re:Rails and Sails by quarkscat · · Score: 1

      Interplanetary travelers using solar sails will
      be able to "tack" in space, providing that their
      "keel (or daggerboard)" can "dig into" the dark
      matter of space.

      I can almost picture a swarm of robotic "sailors"
      keeping the sail in proper "trim".

      Of course, with a top speed of 0.1c, any trip
      will be a rather long one. Once they have reached
      their destination, hopefully their "sea anchor"
      will function properly.

    15. Re:Rails and Sails by fbjon · · Score: 1

      Hey, that's a great applet! I set the sail so I spiralled on a crash course towards the sun. I cam close, and then slipped right by and made a tight slingshot maneuver, careening straight out into deep space at 0,01c. Insane speeds! We gotta build these! If only we could make the sail disregard the intense heat, just like in the simulation run!

      --
      True confidence comes not from realising you are as good as your peers, but that your peers are as bad as you are.
    16. Re:Rails and Sails by Deadstick · · Score: 1
      Yes, you get the "slippage" in solar sailing, but you don't care. The small amount of outward velocity addition is more than overcome by the orbital effect of the decrease in forward velocity. (And remember: half a rev later, the outward force will be acting in the opposite direction. It takes many revs to get anywhere.)

      Yes, it sounds weird, but it works. And it gets weirder: the longer you apply a retarding force backward along the flight path, the faster you go forward. Practically everything about orbital mechanics is counterintuitive.

      rj

  11. I think the important question here is... by SDMX · · Score: 0

    When can I buy my first-class tickets on the Starship Titanic?

    1. Re:I think the important question here is... by PsiPsiStar · · Score: 1

      Probably sometime before the editors learn to proofread the submissions.

      --

      ___
      It's the end of my comment as I know it and I feel fine.
  12. Obligitary star trek reference by FidelCatsro · · Score: 3, Funny

    Now all they need to do is hit a tachyon eddy and we can reach Cardasia

    --
    The only things certain in war are Propaganda and Death. You can never be sure which is which though
    1. Re:Obligitary star trek reference by Undefined+Parameter · · Score: 1

      heh... Tachyon Eddy... sounds like some sort of 25th-century junk dealer.

      "Come on down to Tachyon Eddy's for the best deals on slightly-used warp drives this side of Borg space!" ... Or maybe I just need more sleep.

      ~UP

      --
      Eat the Path.
    2. Re:Obligitary star trek reference by FidelCatsro · · Score: 1

      Tachyon Eddy and son doesn't quite have the same ring to it as Steptoe and son (Sanford and son was the US version , incase you were wondering)

      --
      The only things certain in war are Propaganda and Death. You can never be sure which is which though
    3. Re:Obligitary star trek reference by 1ivewire · · Score: 2, Funny

      Solar sails didn't work in Star Trek IV, why would they work now?

    4. Re:Obligitary star trek reference by FidelCatsro · · Score: 1

      They hadn't arrived at Bajor yet , so obviously they didn't have the technology the Bajorans had

      --
      The only things certain in war are Propaganda and Death. You can never be sure which is which though
    5. Re:Obligitary star trek reference by Thing+1 · · Score: 1
      "Eddies in the space-time continuum." - Ford

      "Is he, is he..." - Arthur

      --
      I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
    6. Re:Obligitary star trek reference by NanoGator · · Score: 1

      "Solar sails didn't work in Star Trek IV..."

      They were trying to get power, not momentum. It'd be stupid for them to waste their time trying to make their ship go sublight when their life support is failing.

      It was called a 'sail' to imply they going to build a big sheet of material to capture solar energy.

      --
      "Derp de derp."
  13. So.... by Ecko7889 · · Score: 1

    So..this sail will orbit earth?

    What about all the space debris that will rip the hell out of the sail?

    I don't think that the sail will last anymore than someone throwing a paper airplane in the air and have a firing squad shoot at it until their is no more. Lets see that plane fly for 4 years

    --
    $sig$
    1. Re:So.... by helioquake · · Score: 1

      This mission is tested on Earth polar orbit; there are less space debris in there.

      Besides this is a validation and verification mission. If it gets punctured by debris, that's a new lesson learned.

    2. Re:So.... by spune · · Score: 1

      If debris hits the sails, the debris will merely rip a hole. The mylar is not polymerized such that the enitre sail will be torn apart; only the area receiving direct impact will be affected. Given the minute dimensions of debris likely to be encountered, there should be no problem on this mission.

  14. Majestic by Laivincolmo · · Score: 1

    I have always been facsinated by the idea of solar sails. Something about them seems so elegant and simple. The idea of branching from sailing ships to sailing starships just seems so right to me.

    1. Re:Majestic by Cheerio+Boy · · Score: 1

      I have always been facsinated by the idea of solar sails. Something about them seems so elegant and simple. The idea of branching from sailing ships to sailing starships just seems so right to me.

      Indeed. And as far as I'm concerned the only thing needed is a good life support plan. (Yeah, I know, Duh! ;-) If we were to think on a large enough scale I"m sure it would be doable.

      The problem I see now is that $BIG_CORPS don't really see space as profitable yet. If they did we'd almost certainly have a way out there already.

      Though like the parent I would just love to see a solar sailing ship in my lifetime. It'd be even cooler if someone made one that looked like the ships of old. (Yes, I know friction in space is still an issue and yes I know it would be anacronistic. But damn it would be cool to see!)

      --

      "Bah!" - Dogbert
    2. Re:Majestic by fbjon · · Score: 1

      I'm sure future ship-modders will be creating wild ships in ye olde style. As well as neon rims, water-cooled sail retractors, large led-fans with no effect, air tubes to guide the highly efficient space ether to cool the right spots, transparent hulls, chrome plated sails, and paint jobs that'll make the moon cry.

      --
      True confidence comes not from realising you are as good as your peers, but that your peers are as bad as you are.
    3. Re:Majestic by Cheerio+Boy · · Score: 1

      I'm sure future ship-modders will be creating wild ships in ye olde style. As well as neon rims, water-cooled sail retractors, large led-fans with no effect, air tubes to guide the highly efficient space ether to cool the right spots, transparent hulls, chrome plated sails, and paint jobs that'll make the moon cry.

      [Future TV Show]
      "Welcome to Pimp My Starship! Today we're going to take a guy with and old model 3623827 ship and make it so it's 'All that!'"
      [/Future TV Show]

      :-)

      *watches karma go up in flames*

      --

      "Bah!" - Dogbert
  15. GE or GM by green+pizza · · Score: 2, Funny

    I don't think Union Pacific builds their own equipment anymore. But maybe General Electric or Electro-Motive / GM EMD could provide build the ship.

    Hmm, I can't seem to find the "Add To Shopping Cart" button on either of those websites. Internet shopping revolution my foot!

  16. More info on Cosmos 1 by FleaPlus · · Score: 4, Informative

    Darn, I was in the middle of preparing a submission on Cosmos 1 when I saw this. Anyways, I have a little more info which people might find interesting, so I'll go ahead and paste it below:

    Countdown to First Solar Sail Spacecraft

    The Planetary Society's Cosmos 1, the first spacecraft to be propelled by a solar sail, has just been loaded onto a converted ICBM in preparation for its launch from a Russian submarine this Tuesday, June 21. This is the first mission by a non-profit space advocacy group and is being funded by private donations. Project Operations Assistant Emily Lakdawalla is posting a running description of events on the official blog. Videos and animations describing the mission are available, including commentary from the Planetary Society's Vice President, Bill Nye the Science Guy. Downloadable print-out model kits are also available.


    One of the many neat things about this project is that if the first phase of regular solar sailing is successful, they'll run a later experiment with focusing a microwave beam on the sail to see how well it propels the craft. I wish the Planetary Society the best in this high-risk endeavour.

    1. Re:More info on Cosmos 1 by Doomie · · Score: 1

      It's funny cause you made the same mistake that I did -- Solar rail vs. Solar sail :)

      PS: I submitted the story yesterday. First story that I've ever submitted, btw :)

      --
      Doomie
    2. Re:More info on Cosmos 1 by Doomie · · Score: 1

      Nevermind me.. I had too much of sailing/railing it seems :)

      --
      Doomie
    3. Re:More info on Cosmos 1 by FleaPlus · · Score: 1

      Congrats on the submission. :)

  17. Rails? Hmmm, interesting. by lheal · · Score: 1, Offtopic

    What about using a giant rail-gun to launch a space vehicle from the moon?

    Once spaceborn, the vehicle could deploy its deep-space propulsion, such as solar sails or ion drive.

    --
    Raise your children as if you were teaching them to raise your grandchildren, because you are.
  18. Solar rails ? - Try Solar Snails! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Can't post without a "body". Stoopid /.

    1. Re:Solar rails ? - Try Solar Snails! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0



  19. Quirks and Quarks by astrosmash · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Check out this week's Quirks and Quarks podcast, which covers the same topic. They interview the Planitary Society project manager about the upcoming solar sail launch.

    While I'm at it, they've also got a segment on quantum cryptography this week which is kind of interesting.

    --
    ENDUT! HOCH HECH!
    1. Re:Quirks and Quarks by AndroidCat · · Score: 1

      The quantum researcher was hard to pin down on some questions, which kind of makes sense.

      --
      One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
  20. 200,000kph by uniqueUser · · Score: 0

    Am I missing something? Is that two hundred thousand thousand per hour? What are the units?

    --
    GENERATION 25: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social exper
    1. Re:200,000kph by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      KPH = Kilometers per Hour.

    2. Re:200,000kph by uyguremre · · Score: 1

      Yes you are missing something: The International System of Units "the most widely used system of units".A simple search would have told you.

  21. Jack Vance: "Sail 25" by anubi · · Score: 2, Interesting
    You would probably immensely enjoy the science fiction short-story "Sail 25" by Jack Vance. Its a good hour read at the library.

    Its about a training voyage with six cadets and a instructor who thorougly trains his cadets by making the voyage a living nightmare of failures, as well as making sure they make it on their own ( as he's already seen to it the radio does not work, and he's let it be known very clear to the cadets he expects to die in space - the ship is theirs to navigate using the forces of nature at their command, and he's not lifitng a finger to help.).

    Jack seems to have his physics pretty accurate -

    I have re-read that story often. It would make a helluva movie.

    --
    "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]

  22. Dumbass by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


  23. conservation of energy ? by cats-paw · · Score: 1

    I'm unclear as to how energy is conserved in this case.

    Clearly the energy of the reflected photon must be less than the incident photon.

    Since the energy of the photon is inversely proportional to the frequency, does the frequency of the light change after it is reflected ?

    --
    Absolute statements are never true
    1. Re:conservation of energy ? by Zeussy · · Score: 1

      I was discussing this with my physics lecturer about a year ago. As some solar sail's are supposedly 100% reflective so they dont heat up. Which made me ask about how can any useful work being obtained if no heat is exchanged (a heat engine seeing that virtually everying is one that moves).

      Anyway yes the frequency does change after the satellite gets push along slightly the reflected photon will have a slightly longer wavelength and therefore energy transfer.

    2. Re:conservation of energy ? by cheekyboy · · Score: 1

      how come light in a laser tube that bounces back and forth doesnt gradually freq shift down to IR from green?

      --
      Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
    3. Re:conservation of energy ? by Zeussy · · Score: 1

      Well the mirrors arn't accelerating away from each other.

    4. Re:conservation of energy ? by pclminion · · Score: 1
      Since the energy of the photon is inversely proportional to the frequency, does the frequency of the light change after it is reflected ?

      Well where do you THINK the energy comes from, the magical Alterverse? Yes, the frequency of the photon changes. And the energy is directly proportional to the frequency, not inversely.

    5. Re:conservation of energy ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Since the energy of the photon is inversely proportional to the frequency, does the frequency of the light change after it is reflected ?

      Yes. It's redshifted - wikipedia for the doppler effect for an explanation.

      That's only the case when the sail is receding, though. When a sail is approaching a star, the light is blue-shifted - and the extra energy comes from the decreasing kinetic energy of the sail.

  24. Re:Rails? Hmmm, interesting. by Bob+of+Dole · · Score: 1

    But then the Loonies could revolt and use the rail gun to bomb the Earth!
    I read a scientific article about it once.

  25. Re:Rails? Hmmm, interesting. by AndroidCat · · Score: 1

    So let them build a space cable out to the Earth-Moon L1 point.

    --
    One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
  26. Learn some basic physics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The kinetic energy of the sail
    initially: 1/2*m*v0^2
    after some time: 1/2*m*v1^2

    Since v1 > v0 and there is this thing called "conservation of energy", some extra energy is needed.

    1. Re:Learn some basic physics by YU+Nicks+NE+Way · · Score: 1

      Each reflected photon's wavelength will be slightly longer than the original photon's wavelength was. That's the source of the energy difference in the sail.

    2. Re:Learn some basic physics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Yes, that extra energy is given by the pressure created by the photons striking the mirrors. A photon has no mass however it still transfers momentum. They derived this stuff from playing with equations. For example the momentum for light is p = hf/c where h is Planck's constant, f is frequency and c is the speed of light. So therefore the momentum is transferred from the photon to the sails.

      See you don't understand how light is actually reflected. The photons are first absorbed which means that the energy is absorbed. This causes the electrons to move up in its orbit. When the electron moves back down, cause it wishes to be stable, it releases a photon. This works exactly like a regular engine. By having thrust going in the opposite direction the ship goes forward. Well same thing here but instead it is light. See how it works now? For every action you have an equal and opposite reaction. It's the same principles just being applied to light so it's a bit harder to understand.

      Now as for this actually working, well I don't know. Everything in physics says it should but physics has said a lot of things should work or fail and has been wrong many times. Hope this has helped you to understand

    3. Re:Learn some basic physics by JohnFluxx · · Score: 1

      Hmm..

      Imagine you just threw cricket balls at the ship when it was stationary and it was a perfectly elastic collision. The balls would bounce off at the same speed and the ship would gain speed.

      However now imagine you threw the cricket balls at a moving ship. Our cricket balls would bounce back at a slower speed. When it comes to photons, this would be the doppler effect and cause the wavelength to increase.

      I fail to see however why the wavelength would decrease when we consider the ship to be stationary, and since we can always consider the ship to be stationary, the energy transfer can't be from this. I think. :)

  27. Time to patent solar sails. by Quant64 · · Score: 1

    1. Patent soalr sails. 2. Wait for Technology to develope. 3. Lawsuite. 4. Profit.

    1. Re:Time to patent solar sails. by CockblockTheVote · · Score: 2, Funny

      3. Lawsuite Would this be a collection of lawsuits, all joined together with some common bond?

    2. Re:Time to patent solar sails. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Two words: prior art

  28. Example by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    "I helped my uncle Jack off a horse"

    versus

    "I helped my uncle jack off a horse"

  29. Stupid mods! by lheal · · Score: 1

    I posted a question about using a giant rail-gun to ASSIST the use of SOLAR SAILS, the subject of the story.

    How is that off-topic?

    Yeesh.

    --
    Raise your children as if you were teaching them to raise your grandchildren, because you are.
  30. Re:Rails? Hmmm, interesting. by mikael · · Score: 3, Informative

    The idea of rail-guns for launching vehicles came about because on other planets there wasn't enough atmosphere for aerodynamics to work or for jet engines to work. The relative vacuum and low gravity was an advantage for anything that didn't need to carry its own fuel. The rail gun would use electromagnetic fields to accelerate the vehicle to beyond escape velocity.

    However, for Earth, you need a take off velocity of at least 7 miles/second (or 25,000 miles/hour). And that doesn't take into air friction. Assuming you could build such an aerodynamic capsule, you would need a considerable acceleration for a period of the launch phase.

    To minimize the amount of energy you need to use, you'd want to travel straight up, and to generate enough energy you would probably have to burn gallons of hydrocarbons or run a whole chain of nuclear reactors. Since energy is most efficient when you use the least number of conversion stages, you really end up with a vertical rocket launch with solid or liquid fuel.

    --
    Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
  31. but, but.. by subjekat · · Score: 1

    "Solar sails would thus be especially useful for journeys to distant planets or vastly more distant stars" But, as the distance from Sun increases, light intensity DECREASES as SQUARE of distance. When the sail reaches half way to another star, Sun will push it almost as much as that star (ok, a bit less because of difference in reflection).

    1. Re:but, but.. by SamSim · · Score: 1

      Great, so you can begin decelerating!

    2. Re:but, but.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How does it COME BACK HOME?

    3. Re:but, but.. by stevelinton · · Score: 1

      For journeys in the outer solar system, or further, you need to supply your own light. You shine some kind of beam (laser light most likely) at the sail from back home.

      Of course stopping at another star is still a bit tricky. Robert Forward proposed detaching part of the sail and using it to reflect the beam back onto the rest, Larry Niven & Jerry Pournelle just had the probe diving in very close to the star. I've also seen the suggestion of using the galactic magnetic field to take you around the back of the target system so that you can decelerate back down your original beam.

  32. Re:Rails? Hmmm, interesting. by lheal · · Score: 1

    But I asked about doing it from the Moon. Not much air friction there :-).

    --
    Raise your children as if you were teaching them to raise your grandchildren, because you are.
  33. Re:Sailing Away by cheekyboy · · Score: 1

    The shuttle blowing up didnt delay the ISS? comeon....

    Any hoe, USA GOVT wont allow nasa to give any $$$ to russia so if russia hasnt got the cash what do you expect? The mafia to fund it?

    OT: yes i know russia is spending billions in secret underground/mountain NORAD type cities with capacities for 50000+ people.
    Which leads me to ask why any nation really 'prepares for ww3' and still economicaly deals with the enemy? -dont trust china-

    --
    Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
  34. Orbiting? by Tisha_AH · · Score: 2, Interesting

    If this is to "orbit" the earth it faces alot of challenges. Out atmosphere extends quite a distance to the moon. Sure it is atoms per cubic meter but it's appreceable . I suspect there will some frictional losses that will constrain the top end velocity. If it orbits that means that it has to go back around the other side, while the front surface is facing to the sun. Sure you can play tricks where maybe one side is reflective and the other approaches an ideal black body object and just absorbs. Or maybe when it is on it's orbit facing to the sun and while it is "tacking the wind" you retract the solar sail to reduce drag. Lots of challenges there to consider. You probably could get better performance if it had a highly elliptical orbit, in other words, more acceleration as it has the "wind in it's sails" and then when it reaches apogee you close the sails and let it accelerate back to earth using gravitational attraction. As this thing accelerates the orbit would become even more elliptical and as it does a swing by the earth (to go back into space) it faces frictional heating, geomagnetic forces where the electric charges on the instrumentation packages begin to wear on the electronics packages. Remember what happens when you move a piece of metal rapidly through a magnetic field, it induces voltages into the object being moved. It would be cooler, probably easier and more impressive if you sent it into deep space. Then when in mid course to another star, once it senses decelleration caused by the star it's heading to it would either close or eject the sail. Think of a solar sail built like a umbrella. Put the instrumentation package in the "handle" and also a microwave transmitter and feed horn. Face the feed horn right at the surface of the solar sail and this thing can do double duty as a giant microwave antenna (50-100 meters across). This would have a greater communication range than any deep space probe out there that are limited by the gain that their antennas can produce because of their relatively small size (a few meters across). Let's say you want to decellerate at the other end. Use a small thruster to turn the thing around mid-course and re-deploy the sail. The probe would slow down the closer it gets to the distant star. Possibilities, possibilities, my mind is awash.

    --
    Tisha Hayes
    1. Re:Orbiting? by fbjon · · Score: 1

      Oh oh, I know! You could put a flashlight at the end of the handle, shining into the sail. Free energy!

      --
      True confidence comes not from realising you are as good as your peers, but that your peers are as bad as you are.
  35. Too slow!! by toonworld · · Score: 1

    Give me something that goes 299 792 KM/s and we can talk then! :P

    --
    It's not the destination that matters, but rather the journey.
  36. Re:Sailing Away by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

    No, the point is that Russia has been funding its solar sail research, while being subsidized by the US in the ISS. Now the US is behind Russia in the more promising solar sail research, which we wouldn't be if we'd spent our subsidies on that instead. This doesn't require conspiracy theories - it's simple, obvious economics.

    --

    --
    make install -not war

  37. Re:Sailing Away by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

    Moderation -2
    100% Flamebait

    TrollMods can't deny that Russia is having our cake and eating it too.

    --

    --
    make install -not war

  38. Orbital return by Tisha_AH · · Score: 1

    Oh, the same way. At the destination since it would be in orbit around a distant star it could use it's sail (coated with a radio reflective material) as a radio-telescope and look for signs of civilization (assuming they use radio)or even some more esoteric means like looking for the water spectrum, oxygen etc... Then, it would reverse course, head back to earth (or some other star on a grand tour). I don't think this would really be a very efficient means of moving people. The acceleration would be in the hundreth or thousanth or ten thousanth of a G and would take many many years to even reach our nearest star. It's cool because it's a low energy and fairly low tech way of going places, if you have a long time to get there.

    --
    Tisha Hayes
  39. A great idea. by JollyFinn · · Score: 1

    Just make some long rails between few large bodies in our solar system. The rails would transfer the electricity to points right behind the train with electro magnetics and superconductors on the train would repulse it from the magnetic field. So there wouldn't be any mass for propulsion to move. As a superconductors inside rails would move the propulsion power to the ship.

    Sure, sure I definitely read the article ;)

    --
    Emacs is good operating system, but it has one flaw: Its text editor could be better.
  40. Looks mighty dopey from a furst estimate by Ancient_Hacker · · Score: 1

    Did a little back of the spreadsheet calculation. If you take thr trhrust numbers fomr the article, you get a kilogram of thrust from every square kilometer. That's a millionth of a Kg from every square meter. Or a thousandth of a gram. If you assume the sail weighs .1 gram per square meter, that's an acceleration of 1/100th of a G. Not terribly impressive. Certainly not enough to push anything out of earth orbit. And a very slow way to tour the solar system. And what do you do at night? :)

    1. Re:Looks mighty dopey from a furst estimate by wjeduck · · Score: 1

      Totally off topic, but I'm trying to contact the ancient_hacker who was interested in Solartron 7061's. If that's you, let me know. Use my real email address: solartron@quackers.net To be a little topical, after 118 days of .01 g acceleration, you'll be moving at 1000 kilometers/second (v=at) and will have traveled about 5 billion kilometers (d=1/2at^2). Not too shabby.

    2. Re:Looks mighty dopey from a furst estimate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >an acceleration of 1/100th of a G. Not terribly impressive. Certainly not enough to push anything out of earth orbit.

      Do the orbits around your earth have springs, or bungie cords? 1/100 G is quite enough to spiral out from the orbits around ours.

  41. Best Book on Solar Sails by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Best Book on Solar Sails:
    http://www-users.cs.york.ac.uk/~susan/sf/books/c/c larke.htm#5484
    Arthur C. Clarke, editor. Project Solar Sail. Roc/Penguin. 1990
    Contents:
    Poul Anderson. Sunjammer. 1964
    Arthur C. Clarke. The Wind From the Sun. 1963
    Arthur C. Clarke. The Winds of Space (forward to Project Solar Sail). 1990
    Isaac Asimov. Sailing the Void (introduction to Project Solar Sail). 1990
    Ray Bradbury, Jonathan V. Post. To Sail Beyond the Sun (A Luminous Collage). 1990
    K. Eric Drexler. The Canvas of Night. 1990
    David Brin. Ice Pilot. 1990
    Jonathan Eberhart. A Solar Privateer. 1981
    Chauncey Uphoff, Jonathan V. Post. A Rebel Technology Comes Alive
    Alfred Lord Tennyson. Argosies of Magic Sails
    Brian Palaszewski. Ion Propulsion: The Solar Sail's Competition. 1990
    Charles Sheffield. The Grand Tour. 1987
    Scott E. Green. Lightsail. 1990
    Kevin J. Anderson, Doug Beason. Rescue at L-5. 1990
    Robert L. Forward, Joel Davis. Lightsails to the Stars. 1990
    Joe Clifford Faust. Goodnight, Children. 1990
    Robert L. Staehle, Louis Friedman. Solar Sails in an Interplanetary Economy. 1990
    Arthur C. Clarke. Afterword to "Project Solar Sail". 1990
    Larry Niven. The Fourth Profession. 1971

  42. Looks mighty dopey... by barakn · · Score: 1
    ....like thinking a kilogram is a unit of thrust?

    Their website says the acceleration is ~ .0005 m/s/s, which is 5/100,000 of a g (not a G), and the 'g' referred to here is not a gram, but the acceleration due to gravity at the Earth's surface, 9.8 m/s/s. That's very impressive, considering that acceleration could continue for as long as the sun keeps shining, which is more than enough time to lift something out of Earth orbit. Assuming the craft doesn't trade any kinetic for gravitational potential energy, it could speed up by 1600 m/s in a year (if I remember the number of seconds/year right- ~pi*10^7 s).

    --
    "I'm so moist I'm sticking to the leather." -Kermit the Frog on The Late Late Show
    1. Re:Looks mighty dopey... by Ancient_Hacker · · Score: 1

      >Assuming the craft doesn't trade any kinetic for gravitational potential energy. I don't think it has any choice. >, it could speed up by 1600 m/s in a year But escape veliocity is about 1.4 times orbital velocity, so it's going to take let's see-- 7500 m/s * 1.4 - 7500, wow only about 2 years! Of course this is just the acceleration of the sail, if the satellite package has any mass, you're going to have to add more sail to help drag that along.

  43. Re:Rails? Hmmm, interesting. by mikael · · Score: 1

    You've still got to get your launch rail transported and built, along with your power supply (nuclear reactor/solar panels). The launch rail would have to be anchored to the ground rock (if there is any) to make sure nothing works loose. And it would still have to project the vehicle up to at least 3600 miles/hour, which means it would have to be a few miles long. Using rockets is still the most efficient method.

    --
    Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
  44. Re:Sailing Away by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

    Moderation -2
    100% Flamebait

    Which is the sacred cow here, TrollMods? Is it NASA, the ISS, the Shuttles, or Russia? Or are you so stupid that you're afraid I'm criticizing solar sails, or internationalized space research? Without any rebuttal, just anonymous TrollMod'ing, it's impossible to tell.

    --

    --
    make install -not war