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Doomed: How id Lost Its Crown

bonch writes "Steve Bowler, lead animator for Midway Games, has written an article for Next Generation called Doomed: How id Lost Its Crown. He talks about id no longer being the king of the hill in the FPS genre, losing the multiplayer gaming wars to Counter-strike and the engine licensing wars to competitors like Unreal 3.0, and focusing too much on rendering realistic environments at the expense of modern gameplay features. From the article: 'It's hard to stomach having to shoot a zombie in the head the same number of times as in the body (six rounds from a pistol, thanks for asking) to dispatch it, when you can shoot a light fixture and watch how realistically light dances around the room.'"

81 of 491 comments (clear)

  1. Dupes: How Slashdot Lost Its Crown by TripMaster+Monkey · · Score: 5, Funny


    Dupe...original article can be found here.

    Almost the same title, too.

    --
    ____

    ~ |rip/\/\aster /\/\onkey

    1. Re:Dupes: How Slashdot Lost Its Crown by HTH+NE1 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Just goes to demonstrate that the Taco hand doesn't know what the Zonk hand is doing.

      --
      Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
    2. Re:Dupes: How Slashdot Lost Its Crown by Evro · · Score: 5, Funny
      --
      rooooar
    3. Re:Dupes: How Slashdot Lost Its Crown by ArsonSmith · · Score: 4, Funny

      I don't consider it a dupe. More like a rerun. Slashdot news at noon, 5pm and 10pm. Maybe again tomorrow and next week too.

      --
      Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
    4. Re:Dupes: How Slashdot Lost Its Crown by sgant · · Score: 4, Funny

      Haven't you also noticed that it's mainly Taco that does the dupes? Sure, there are others but Taco makes most of them.

      It's like he wanders into the computer room in his bathrobe and slippers...shuffling in. Then when no one is looking he'll sit down and look at the story submissions...post the ones he likes...then shuffles out. Not knowing that the ones he's posting are all dupes.

      Then Zonk or whoever walks in and slaps his hand and leads him back to his room and ups his medications.

      --

      "Leo Fender was in a 'state of grace' when he designed the Stratocaster." -- Paul Reed Smith
    5. Re:Dupes: How Slashdot Lost Its Crown by diggem · · Score: 4, Funny

      ... and this is why I don't read Slashdot every day anymore. Don't worry, if you miss one, it'll show up again in a week or two.

    6. Re:Dupes: How Slashdot Lost Its Crown by soft_guy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Here's what I don't get. Why do people care that there are dupes? Did Taco hold a gun to your head and make you read the article twice? Or read through and make comments? Why don't you just ignore dupes?

      --
      Avoid Missing Ball for High Score
    7. Re:Dupes: How Slashdot Lost Its Crown by Sfing_ter · · Score: 2, Funny

      We shall dub him, Taco Taco!

      --
      A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing. Emo Philips
    8. Re:Dupes: How Slashdot Lost Its Crown by edwdig · · Score: 3, Informative

      Slashdot only posts a small percentage of the stories submitted each day. Each dupe posted is one less story you haven't read before that gets posted.

  2. Of course you have to keep shooting by Approaching.sanity · · Score: 5, Funny

    Zombies can remain animated independant of if their head is intact or not.

    Who writes these things anyway? Honestly folks.

    --
    RTFA again for the best results.
    1. Re:Of course you have to keep shooting by CDLewis · · Score: 5, Funny

      > Zombies can remain animated independant of if their head is intact or not.

      Indeed, they'll keep coming back almost as often as this story.

    2. Re:Of course you have to keep shooting by wankledot · · Score: 3, Informative

      Come on now, everyone learned in Zombie 101 that when you take out the head, the zombie is toast.

      --
      My sig is blank, I typed this by hand.
    3. Re:Of course you have to keep shooting by killtherat · · Score: 5, Funny

      Obviously somebody needs to bone up on their
      Zombie Survival Strategy.

      Top 10 Lessons for Surviving a Zombie Attack

      1. Organize before they rise!
      2. They feel no fear, why should you?
      3. Use your head: cut off theirs.
      4. Blades don't need reloading.
      5. Ideal protection = tight clothes, short hair.
      6. Get up the staircase, then destroy it.
      7. Get out of the car, get onto the bike.
      8. Keep moving, keep low, keep quiet, keep alert!
      9. No place is safe, only safer.
      10. The zombie may be gone, but the threat lives on.

    4. Re:Of course you have to keep shooting by SparksMcGee · · Score: 3, Insightful

      But some of the Doom zombies don't even have heads, they just rise headless off the floor. Therefore it stands to reason that the head is a non-critical part of a Doom zombie.

    5. Re:Of course you have to keep shooting by coaxial · · Score: 2, Informative

      Sorry nope.

      From Night of the Living Dead:

      Reporter: Chief, if I were surrounded by eight or ten of these things, would I stand a chance with them?

      Sheriff: Well, there's no problem. If you have a gun, shoot 'em in the head. That's a sure way to kill 'em. If you don't, get yourself a club or a torch. Beat 'em or burn 'em. They go up pretty
      easy.

      Reporter: Are they slow moving Chief?

      Sheriff: Yeah. They're dead. They're all messed up.

    6. Re:Of course you have to keep shooting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      From Return of the Living Dead:

      Burt Wilson: I thought you said that if we destroyed the brain, it would die.

      Frank: It worked in the movie!

      Burt Wilson: Well it ain't working now Frank.

      Freddy: You mean the movie lied?

    7. Re:Of course you have to keep shooting by Thud457 · · Score: 3, Funny

      Just cut off their thumbs with bolt cutters. They can't do much to you after that! Stuipd zombies.

      --

      the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

  3. Light? by DeathFlame · · Score: 4, Funny

    Light dancing around the room?

    We're talking about doom 3 right?

    Light?

    Umm.. maybe how nice it looks when you shine your flashlight around the room... unless you have your gun out...

    1. Re:Light? by gunpowda · · Score: 4, Insightful
      What annoyed me most was the "No Duct Tape on Mars?" concept. If you're striving for photo-realistic horror, then at least give players the opportunity to be able to see something. Or shoot. Maybe both?

      This is an ingenious mod. Seriously - in my view, the main reason Doom 3 was such a poor game was the fact that you could see *nothing* without the flashlight. Who cares about the super new graphics engine if you're barely given an opportunity to take a look at the environment?

    2. Re:Light? by afidel · · Score: 4, Informative

      I think that the guys over at penny arcade got it exactly right with this cartoon.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    3. Re:Light? by tgibbs · · Score: 4, Funny

      What annoyed me most was the "No Duct Tape on Mars?" concept.

      Actually, it would be amusing if there was a roll of duct tape hidden somewhere in the game. "Forget the BFG, where do I find the tape??!!"

  4. Seriously- by Ieshan · · Score: 5, Insightful

    One of the real reasons Doom3 never took off is because I needed to buy a new computer to use it. And so did everyone else.

    Counterstrike runs on crap hardware, and basically, a crap internet connection. You'll get called a lagger, a newbie, and a lamer, but it will work, and you can play, and have fun.

    Gameplay is extremely important, but so too is availability.

    1. Re:Seriously- by AviLazar · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That and you can't see whats going on. I didn't like Doom because I couldn't see crap. And in a space age enviroment, couldn't the guy have a light put on his helmet? Even minors in the days pre-electricity could do this.

      The sequence to Doom (someone else said this once).

      1. Move around corner
      2. Light turns off
      3. Loud noise
      4. Option - Load Saved Game
      5. Wash - Rinse - Repeat.

      --

      I mod down so you can mod up. Your welcome.
    2. Re:Seriously- by TripMaster+Monkey · · Score: 5, Funny


      Even minors in the days pre-electricity could do this.

      Yeah...amazing what they let children do back in the pre-electricity days, isn't it?

      Spellcheck will not save you. At some point you need to know what the hell you're talking about.

      --
      ____

      ~ |rip/\/\aster /\/\onkey

    3. Re:Seriously- by badmammajamma · · Score: 3, Insightful

      In spite of its sales, it was pretty much DOA. Most of the people who bought it did so because of id's reputation. In the end, they were mostly disappointed. The game is terribly derivative of its own history. The scares are cheap with the flashlight swap crap and end up just being very annoying and not scary at all. All the areas are these narrow corridors and small rooms because the performance would be ass otherwise. This left me bored pretty damn fast.

      Other than new graphics, this game had nothing going for it. A total dud and that's that. Only a total fanboy could like it.

      Lets face it, Unreal and Half Life kick Doom's ass all over the place at this point. Although I admit that HL2 was disappointing because of Steam (I love waiting 5 minutes to play my game because of that fucking piece of shit). I will never by another half life that has Steam in it. The only online FPS I really like Is UT2k4. Everything else is pretty much ass these days.

      Finally, are there still people playing Counterstrike? rofl

      --
      Any man who afflicts the human race with ideas must be prepared to see them misunderstood. -- H. L. Mencken
    4. Re:Seriously- by ray-auch · · Score: 2, Informative

      In pre electricity days they sent small children to work in the mines.

      Miners or minors - either would be accurate in those days.

    5. Re:Seriously- by enrico_suave · · Score: 2, Informative

      counterstrike *used* to run on crap hardware.

      feel free to dust off your crap hardware and load the latest version of non-source engine counterstrike via bloated/slow steam delivery platform.

      I used to love how CS 1.5 and older ran on modest hardware... not so much anymore =(

      e

      --
      Build Your Own PVR/HTPC news, reviews, &
    6. Re:Seriously- by swv3752 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It appealed to an older generation. I loved the game and was one of the few solo games I have bothered to finish. I found the game immersive. The flash light could have been better handled.

      --
      Just a Tuna in the Sea of Life
    7. Re:Seriously- by Kallahar · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You do realize that in a true combat environment, having a light on yourself is a big "shoot me" target, don't you?

    8. Re:Seriously- by StillAnonymous · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's not like all the enemies in the game don't see you anyways. You can't hide from them, so you might as well be able to fight back, right?

    9. Re:Seriously- by RexDart · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You do realize that in a zombie/undead/demons of hell environment where they can sense you by your very soul, not having a light on you is a big "eat me before I even know you're there" invitation, don't you?

      --
      "Yes, Jayne, she's a witch. She's had congress with the beast..."
      "She's in Congress?" - Firefly, "Objects in Space
  5. doop by Evro · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Duped story so I'll dupe my comment.

    Doom 3 was a great game, imo, however people's complaints about the whole flashlight mechanism were justified, and I can see how it would detract from the entertainment value. Id's goal was to make a scary game, and if you played the game with the swapped-in flashlight as they intended, it was indeed scary. The lighting was better than in any game I'd played at that point and created an unparalleled atmosphere of creepiness.

    That being said, the idea that in "the mysterious future" you wouldn't be able to hold both a flashlight and a gun hurt the game's credibility. And going for the cheap scare so many times did tend to get old.

    They were also determined to make D3 a single-player game in a field now dominated by multiplayer and massively-multiplayer games. I would have thought that they'd have realized this better than anyone, given that they practically created the market for multiplayer FPS gaming, but they chose to make Doom 3 a single player game, and between that and the whole flashlight deal, many people decided the game was a dud, and thus its fate was sealed.

    I still thought it was a great game though!

    --
    rooooar
  6. The Article Text (ICOS) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative


    Veteran animator Steve Bowler (pictured) got pretty angry when he bought Doom 3. And he's still a mite agitated...

    What was it, 12 years ago, that we first laid eyes on the original, the dark new 3D world that was Doom? Even before that, a select few of us recall with wonder the revival of one of our favorite gaming franchises, in a bold new direction, when Wolfenstein 3D hit the shelves.

    For a dozen years Id has been the top dog, the guy to beat, the pater familia to the first-person shooter. It can look back on a legacy of six games, each one an unstoppable sales juggernaut, a technological milestone. You didn't need to know what the review score was for an Id title. You only knew that you needed to buy it.

    But one day, the industry changed. The consumer changed. It's hard to put one's finger on it. Maybe it was Counter-Strike. Maybe Unreal Tournament. Something happened to the genre between Quake III and Doom 3, and Id somehow didn't take it into account. Call it braggadocio, or hubris, but Doom 3 is no longer the top dog in the FPS market.

    Yes, it's upsetting. I tried not to admit it either. But it's undeniably true.

    Some have even argued that Doom 3 is a step backwards in FPS gaming, that even when it hit the shelves we were already years past where it hoped to position itself.

    The problem, it seems, lies at the core of where Doom came from, and the hopes we had for Doom 3. It was a tale of gameplay, graphics, and mistakes.

    Zombie shuffle

    We're all familiar with the helter-skelter breakneck balls-to-the-wall pace that the original Doom set. So where is it in Doom 3? I can appreciate the slow zombie shuffle as much as the next guy, but when Halo's Flood race existed years before Doom's sequel, one has to ask why exactly we're experiencing only one or two imps at a time.

    Obviously, there's a reason why we don't have a dozen imps chasing us down a corridor, and I'm inclined to say that it's because of the graphics engine. So much attention has been paid to rendering a realistic environment that there just isn't a lot of room left for that many bad guys. This left the guys at Id with a bit of a conundrum: How could they still make the game tense and as terrifying as the originals?

    The answer, evidently, is to have shit jump out of the dark at you.

    Yes, I jumped. I was scared. And then I got tired. Tired of having secret panels open behind me after I'd already cleared the room of any possible beasts from hell, only to get clawed in the back. Who knew demons were capable of such stealth and chicanery? Hey, maybe I'll open this door and--surprise!--here's yet another instant 25 hit points removed from my health because an imp was waiting patiently for me to open a door. This isn't gaming. This isn't the Id I know. This is scripted nonsense.

    And yet, in the face of such scripted trickery, the A.I. then proceeds to fall flat on its face when given an empty room and a box to hide behind. If it doesn't have a gun, the A.I. just comes straight at you trying to claw your eyes out. If it does have a gun, it hides behind corners and boxes, but since the game lacks a headshot--something which has become so common in FPSs now that it's no longer a boastable feature--it takes an implausible amount of time to dispatch them.

    Maybe I'm crazy, but I recall levels in the original Doom where you were downright encouraged to trick the A.I. into fighting itself. Yes, it was a primitive A.I., but I recall being impressed by it. Hell, even the famed Reaperbot for the original Quake is still 10 times more entertaining than fighting drones in Doom 3.

    I guess what it all boils down to is the fact that the gameplay is just too simplified for the graphics. It's hard to stomach having to shoot a zombie in the head the same number of times as in the body (six rounds from a pistol, thanks for asking) to dispatch it, when you can shoot a light fixture and watch how realistically light dances around the room.

    And don't

  7. really? by intmainvoid · · Score: 4, Funny
    It's hard to stomach having to shoot a zombie in the head the same number of times as in the body (six rounds from a pistol, thanks for asking) to dispatch it

    And this is based on your real world experience with Zombie's I presume?

  8. I don't recall... by Slime-dogg · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Id hasn't really been a player on the FPS game market in a while. Their recent games (Quake 3, Doom 3) have basically been technology demos. They sell well because we nerds think it is cool, but the actual games leave much to be desired.

    We know that Id makes its money from licensing its engines to people. Half-life made Id some money. Keep that in mind. I'm not sure if the Source engine takes anything from one of Id's engines.

    --
    You need to restart your computer. Hold down the Power button for several seconds or press the Restart button.
    1. Re:I don't recall... by 88NoSoup4U88 · · Score: 2, Interesting
      I'm not sure if the Source engine takes anything from one of Id's engines.

      Interesting question imo, since Valve been spouting off how they've build the Source Engine themselves, yet, when the alpha-code-leak happened, various people found entries from the Quake-C code inside (either commented out, or still in use) :

      I wonder how much of that is still in there and, if it is, if id is getting something out of it.

  9. Headshot! by October_30th · · Score: 5, Funny
    'It's hard to stomach having to shoot a zombie in the head the same number of times as in the body (six rounds from a pistol, thanks for asking) to dispatch it

    Now that's something I've never understood in the movies or in the games. I mean, if you're a zombie, you don't have a brain. Period. It's all mush and all you want to do is to eat the brain of someone else for some obscure reason (protein content, perhaps?). So, why would a headshot be more effective against a zombie than a bodyshot? It just doesn't make any sense. If I were facing a zombie and I had a shotgun, I'd just shoot his bloody legs off and run away bravely.

    --
    The owls are not what they seem
    1. Re:Headshot! by zenneth · · Score: 5, Funny

      If I were facing a zombie and I had a shotgun, I'd just shoot his bloody legs off and run away bravely.

      Sir Robin?

      --
      The Chronic *WHAT* les of Narnia!
    2. Re:Headshot! by Turn-X+Alphonse · · Score: 3, Interesting

      aww the common misconception. Most zombies (obviously each persons vision is different but still), have very basic brain functions. These are "Must feed" and "Must survive". Now you put the two together and you get a rabid dog in human form.

      So if you disable the brain it can no longer send signals to the main body or even "think" basicly. So a bullet to the brain disables their basic thought and movement in 1.

      Secondly, brains is the "common" thing, but if you notice they just want to eat flesh. Most humans naturally consider flesh the "best" food source (meat and 2 veg, shows this perfectly). So they go after flesh, human or other wise (Most zombie films will show you dead animals being eaten or at least being attacked).

      Of course each "universe" will have it's own way of making zombies and it's own rules, but the basic lay out if above.

      --
      I like muppets.
    3. Re:Headshot! by Spez · · Score: 2, Interesting

      In fact, i think the therory of a zombie is that the brain can continue to function basically without the heart pumping blood. The only way a physical living (or undead) creature can move its arms/legs is by the brain sending impulses to the muscles to do their job. But since the brain dies when its out of oxygen, the rest of the body becomes useless. When a beeing becomes "undead" (or zombie), the brain keeps functionning basically, so it can still send impulses to the limbs. Theorically, the body would not be able to stay in functionnal state for too long, since the muscles would decay without their share of oxygen.

      But thats only the theory ;) I don't think the muscles could move without their share of oxygen anyway...

      So, to answer what you said, why shoot the head? Because if you blow up the brain, there's no way the body can still continu to work, or to be coordinated, so it should fall to the ground after that.

      --
      I wouldn't mind you in my head, if you weren't so clearly mad -Lews Therin Telamon
    4. Re:Headshot! by servognome · · Score: 5, Funny

      Great. A debate on zombies, with logical explainations and references to source material.

      I can't imagine why more women don't participate in these kinds of discussions. :)

      --
      D6 63 0D 70 89 81 BB 8E 7B 7C 5F 5D 54 EA AB 73
    5. Re:Headshot! by coaxial · · Score: 3, Informative

      Now that's something I've never understood in the movies or in the games. I mean, if you're a zombie, you don't have a brain. Period. It's all mush and all you want to do is to eat the brain of someone else for some obscure reason (protein content, perhaps?).

      Return of the Living Dead said the reason zombies eat brains is, "because it's the only thing that numbs the paaaaaiiiiin! The paaaaaaiiin of death!" But that's not a very serious zombie movie.

      If I were facing a zombie and I had a shotgun, I'd just shoot his bloody legs off and run away bravely.

      Well in that same movie, even the dismembered parts continued to move.

    6. Re:Headshot! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      When danger reared it's ugly head
      he bravely shot it's legs and fled
      brave brave brave brave Sir Robin...

    7. Re:Headshot! by DudemanX · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Double Kill!
      Multi Kill!
      Ultra Kill!
      Mon...
      Mon...
      Monster Kill!
      Mon...
      Monster Kill!
      GODLIKE!

      That's what it would sound like when sniping one of the bot spawn points on CTF-Face. There would also be an "Unstoppable" in there somewhere from being alive for so long.

      Good times.

  10. Silly by RickPartin · · Score: 3, Funny

    It's hard to stomach having to shoot a zombie in the head the same number of times as in the body (six rounds from a pistol, thanks for asking) to dispatch it, when you can shoot a light fixture and watch how realistically light dances around the room.

    You are forgetting about the BLOOD SUCKING LIGHTBULB MONSTERS!

  11. The problem I have with Doom 3 by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Is that the engine only seems to be able to do dark well. Something always seemed wrong when I played the game, it seemed too dark. Yes, I know it's supposed to be dark, but something was off. I couldn't put my finger on it, but later someone pointed it out to me: The game doesn't have any kind of radiosity.

    Radiosity is the property of multiple light reflections. When a light shines on a surface it reflects, of course. However that light can then further reflect off another surface and so on. That's what leads to soft shadows, and is the reason why when you turn on a flashlight, the whole room is slightly illuminated, not just what oyu are pointing at.

    Doom 3 doesn't do this, a light hits a surface and will reflect to the screen, but there's no multple levels of reflections. The net effect is hard shadows, corners that are always dark. You can't get a good brightly lit scene.

    Now I don't fault them on this, doing radiosity in realtime isn't feasable at this point on most cards. However other games can deal with this, the don't do all their lighting in realtime. Some is done in realtime, some is a precomputed light map. That allows for a global illumination, but one that doesn't have to happen in realtime.

    That is my big problem with the engine. Sure it's more accurate than the UT2004 engine, technicly speaking, but it doesn't look as good. UT is "faking" the lighting and shadows, but they look good, and you can have a nice brightly lit outdoor map, or a dark indoor map, and they both work. You can have a light source that casts light on to all surfaces, even those it doesn't directly hit, since it's calculated before hand.

    Personally, I'd rather have a game engine that looks good rather than one that is more accurate.

    1. Re:The problem I have with Doom 3 by snorklewacker · · Score: 2, Funny

      Quake 2 had radiosity. People pissed and moaned about "fuzzy shadows", so it was taken out for Quake 3. Then they got rid of that pesky "ambient light" stuff for Doom 3.

      I look forward to their next game, which can be enjoyed by the blind equally as well as the sighted. Talk about an untapped market, and Id is really cracking into it.

      --
      I am no longer wasting my time with slashdot
    2. Re:The problem I have with Doom 3 by Jerry+Talton · · Score: 5, Informative

      *sigh* I wish people wouldn't post drivel like this (or mod it up, for that matter) when they clearly don't know what the hell they're talking about.

      No, that's not what radiosity is. The effect you're referring to is called diffuse interreflection, and radiosity is a finite element method for simulating it based on heat transport. Of course, in the real world most surfaces aren't totally diffuse, and radiosity would have been a bad choice for simulating global illumination effects in Doom in particular since there's an awful lot of metal and other surfaces with strongly specular BRDFs.

      More to the point, all global illumination algorithms are too slow to use in real-time game engines, and so level designers typically precompute these effects and store them in textures. This has nothing to do with the choice of engine: if your engine can display textures, it can approximate these precomputed effects. I don't know whether id decided to do this in Doom or not, but if they didn't it isn't because the engine is fundamentally limited in some way.

    3. Re:The problem I have with Doom 3 by SlayerDave · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Given a premade map, you can do all of the geometrical calculations beforehand, and with some reasonable approximations you can shine a flashlight in a dark room and have it look good.

      Yeah, but that's not global illumination, it's local. You're simply computing the illumination on the visible polygons due to the light source (flashlight), which is quite easy to do in realtime. Global illumination, on the other hand, takes into account the fact that light from the flashlight doesn't always reflect off a surface directly into the camera, but also reflects onto other surfaces and eventually reaches the camera via a potentially long set of intermediate indirect reflections. That cannot be done in realtime, yet.

  12. Re:DUPE by rovingeyes · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I don't get it if its a dupe why is the site still slashdotted? Don't people trust any one anymore?

  13. Another whiny... by c0l0 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    ...and irrelevant rant about Doom 3. It's clearly not everyone's taste, but the hell, I really enjoyed playing id's final version of what the original Doom was meant to be, but could not become, due to technological drawbacks back in time. So this guy, while providing you mit wrong "facts" about "no headhsot in teh g4me 'n stuff dud3!12" (in fact, the Doom 3 engine FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER featured collision-detection based on the actualy polygonal structure of objects, NOT just el-cheapo-hitboxes, and definately recognizes different body-zones of its models!) basically just spills biased mud in the company's face that will get Enemy Territory: Quake Wars as well as the sequel to Quake 2 delivered soon, constantly innovates the industry in the field of real-time 3D-graphics, and sold its latest and greatest groundbreaking engine to be incorporated into some of the most eagerly awaited games in the genre.

    Yeah, I see clearly now, id is doomed.

    --
    :%s/Open Source/Free Software/g

    YTARY!
  14. You know.... by suparjerk · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Even though the gameplay itself for D3 was far below what it should have been, I have to say I must give them credit for being able to create such a powerful and frightening environment as they did. D3 was the first game I've played since the Marine campaign of AvP that actually made me scream, jump out of my chair, and have to leave the room. (Yes, I'm a sissy.)

    Everyone craps on D3 so much, and it bugs me. Yes, gameplay is probably the most important quality in a video game, and I admit it was severely lacking in D3. But dammit, they really really excelled in other areas and did a few things other video games just don't do. They do deserve some credit.

    --
    I caught the Mountain Wumpus! He gave me his treasure chest ($100) to let him go free again.
    1. Re:You know.... by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Marathon and System Shock 2 both scared the crap out of me, and both were much, much, much superior games to Doom 3. So yeah, you're a sissy (Aliens vs. Predator? Wuss.) But if you had admitted to crying during System Shock 2, I'd be hugging you and saying, "ssh, I understand."

    2. Re:You know.... by justins · · Score: 2
      Everyone craps on D3 so much, and it bugs me. Yes, gameplay is probably the most important quality in a video game, and I admit it was severely lacking in D3.

      The conjunction of these sentences kind of makes you sound like a retard. Just an FYI.
      --
      Now before I get modded down, I be to remind whoever might read this that what I am saying is FACT. - bogaboga
  15. The next gen of good FPS's will be like Morrowind by Travoltus · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Morrowind, of course, was an RPG, but it wouldn't be impossible to remake Doom 3 or UT2004 to look and act like it.

    The thing is, non linear games where your actions determine your standing in the game, as well as its path and outcome, are the wave of the future. Especially games with thousands of mini adventures on the side. Also, in Morrowind you interacted with practically *everything*.

    If Morrowind were not done years ago and were done today through the Doom 3 *or* Unreal 2 Engine (either of which would imply far fewer bugs than Bethesda's own "engine"), it would eclipse all other games in popularity for 2 years. I say that because Morrowind appears to be almost the single player's equivalent of Starcraft in popularity and longevity.

    The lesson: forget the graphics arms race, achieve Doom 3 or UT2004 level graphics and leave it at that, and concentrate on a deep, complex, non linear, "easy to get into it quick" story lines, and endless paths of quest resolution. Give FPS players a world to explore, tweak the outcomes, and generally have fun in.

    ID somehow appears to be furthest behind in pursuing this goal, even though Doom 3 is no more linear than HL2 or Unreal 2.

    --
    --- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
  16. An aspect not commented on before... by SuperKendall · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I read the other Slashdot thread. But one thing I found missing there (and in the article itself was) - how did ID really loose the crown of engine linsencing? As the article noted the Unreal3 engine is all over the press, but you see no sign of other companies moving to use the Doom3 engine for other products.

    Is the Doom3 really not as capabile of expansive environments, really not as easy to program? How did ID let that slide by?

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  17. How they lost their crown by AtariAmarok · · Score: 3, Funny

    "And while id was looking down.
    Unreal stole its gaming crown..."

    --
    Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
  18. What did you expect? by Ya+Bolshoi! · · Score: 5, Interesting
    Why are we all of a sudden complaining about the gameplay in an id game? That's like saying that there's little characterization in George Romero film: no shit.

    Carmack et al are on record as saying that games don't need story. Romero (that other one) was booted out of id after he tried to get them to focus on gameplay and design, not just graphics. Admittedly he failed spectacularly, but from that point one id was a one trick pony. They make pretty looking games where you kill zombies/cyborgs and collect keycards.

    Is this behind the times in terms of gameplay? Sure. Imo, Deus Ex and System Shock 2 both beat the pants off DOOM3 (and Painkiller and Max Payne) in terms of gameplay and design. And they're more than five years old!

    Frankly, DOOM was only "revolutionary" because it was the first game that really nailed how to do graphics good enough to make an FPS game work. Expecting fabulous gameplay out of id is like expecting a Terminator movie to bring you to tears.

    DOOM3 is about shooting things. Period. Don't like it, okay, I can relate, but don't try to act as if this is a surprise.

  19. As if the first slashdotting wasn't bad enough... by artemis67 · · Score: 4, Funny

    now they get slashdotted on the dupe, too.

    Holy cow, that's gotta suck.

  20. Ahh but... by JustNiz · · Score: 2, Interesting

    >> ..having to shoot a zombie in the head the same number of times as in the body.. ...In Doom3 you can also blow their heads right off and they still keep coming. Evidently a zombie's head isn't a critical organ, so the body should be more suceptible to damage than the head actually.

  21. id makes engines, not games by sbma44 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    At least, now they do. The requirements for game development are increasing every day, stretching development cycles and requiring more resources.

    id's games have always been about groundbreaking technology, so it's not surprising that as development costs expand, gameplay filligrees in id titles suffer (relative to the competition). id uses its games as technology demos. Don't get me wrong, I love 'em, but their focus is not on the sort of game logic that distinguishes the experiences this story refers to (no, I haven't RTFA yet). Let's face it: AI is an interesting area that needs improvement, but programming headshots is boring. Making realtime rendering engines as good as they can be is a real technical challenge, and something that id can do better than anyone else. That's what makes them unique, and consequently it's also what makes them money -- not from game sales, but from engine licensing.

    1. Re:id makes engines, not games by Kaorimoch · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Let's not forget this John Carmack gem -

      "Story in a game is like story in a porn
      movie. It's expected to be there, but it's not
      that important."

      Such an attitude will lead to "dumb" games that provide about 20 minutes of fun and 3 hours of boring monotony. Running, shooting and getting scared is all that Doom 3 is. There are no advances on enemy positions, creeping around and no freedom on how to accomplish a task. There is no character development or storyline twists and turns. There was no room for a game player to develop their own story in the game, which is where the magic of modern gaming lies.

      System Shock 2 is a great example of an FPS that has a lot of gameplay factors that places like Id should emulate.

  22. Saying that Carmack doesn't... by Foolomon · · Score: 3, Funny

    Saying that Carmack doesn't know how to build a truly engaging game is like saying that Lucas doesn't know how to write a truly engaging script. [Rolls eyes]

  23. Re:How Slashdot Lost Its Crown by PHP+Addict · · Score: 2

    No... you caught the dupe, and most likely would've rejected it. You are not qualified. :p

    --
    Laziness, check. Impatience, check. Hubris, double check!
  24. Re:It's the multiplayer, stupid. by ivan256 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    FPS games that are single-player only never last.

    And you know this because? Based oin the lack of a available servers to log into? What? I know lots of people still playing Morrowind a year later.

    Everyone plays ut2k4, hl2, CS, whatever because it's fun either sneaking around and sniping people, or jumping around flinging rockets.

    I'll bet money that there are still more people playing Quake 3 than all those games put together. Tens of thousands of people every day on their office LANs. It's not generating any new revenue for Id, but Id is still the king by far if you're counting numbers of current players. "Hardcore" gamers and the gaming rags are so far out of touch with the mainsteram that it's rediculous.

  25. I disagree with that... by Demon-Xanth · · Score: 3, Funny

    #7 says get out of the car and onto a bike. Bikes can be tipped over easily and offer no offensive value. Now a truck with a suitably large bumper offers both offensive and defensive value. What better way to take out a dozen zombies in the road way than just making sure you got both hands on the wheel and preparing for a slight, momentary, loss of traction as you travel over crushed re-dead bodies?

    As Interstate '76 said:
    "Don't get out of the car, never get out of the car."
    (tactic worked well in many places of GTA3)

    --
    If you think education is expensive, you should try ignorance -- Derek Bok, president of Harvard
    1. Re:I disagree with that... by cgenman · · Score: 2, Funny

      If you read the book, the author's primary point is that a bike is fast enough to outrun zombies while still being quiet so as not to attract attention. A truck or other motor vehicle will attract the zombie hordes from miles around, which can swarm over the vehicle in sufficient numbers to stop it.

      If you've ever attempted to drive through an Arbor day parade, you'll know what I'm talking about.

  26. Re:The next gen of good FPS's will be like Morrowi by Y-Crate · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I never understood how people got "lost" in Morrowind. From the moment you get off the ship, they tell you where to go and who you need to see to begin the main quest. All of the other quests are pretty self-explanitory, despite the fact they are not presented on a sliver platter. There is some work involved and that seems to throw some gamers off.

    Far more people are used to "On-The-Rails" RPGs, where you must do this, then this then this, etc. Playing a game like Morrowind requires a mentality shift. The game is not in control of the experience, you are. I firmly believe that is the better type of game, but opinions differ.

    The problem I see is that for too many gamers, the goals must be rammed down their throats before they can do anything. To suddenly say "Hey, we've created this entire world, have fun!" is too much for them to deal with. Not because they are stupid, but because it is so vastly alien to them.

    Personally, I will be far less likely to buy an "On-The Rails" game because it is too frustrating. I have this great world around me, but it is very much like being on a train. I can see all of the potential, but everything is predestined. No getting off to enjoy the scenery and explore the world rushing past my window. I must fight this guy, I must go here...I get pissed. If I wanted to be led around, I would have put in a DVD movie instead. I want to go off on my own and do my own thing.

    With Morrowind, I can slip in and out of the main plot at will, or ignore it completely. There is no forced-anything. From the moment I walk out into Seyda Neen, the options are virtually limitless. I can go anywhere, do anything and be any kind of character that I want to.

    Choice is good, replayability is fantastic and having the opportunity to simply walk away for a while and pick up right back where I was in my "other life" is priceless. I've done marathon sessions before, but only because I've had a night where I had nothing better to do. You get sucked so far into the game and your character, but unlike Everquest and World Of Warcraft, myself (and other Morrowind fans that I know) find it very easy to put the controller down and not let it consume our real lives.

    Being able to not just live one adventure, but continue on a lifetime of them, without it getting in the way of everything else (or costing money every month) just can't be beat.

  27. Don't care anymore by wandazulu · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I know it's a dupe, but this time I get to respond instead of just giving mod points...

    I played D3 at a friends house for about an hour. Big screen, dark room, was fun. But the fact is, I'm not the gamer I was back in the early nineties; zombies just don't do it for me anymore. Doom was amazing because it was a technical tour de force; I still remember walking into some of those rooms and going 'that is so *cool*!' Frankly, the whole zombie/monster story was pretty old even then, but Doom was such a good game, I was happy to play the entire thing. Hell, I did the same for D2.

    Quake was pretty good, but seemed like pretty much the same thing with a slightly mideval twist to it. By the time Q2 came around, it seemed like I was playing the "same-old-thing", even though, id never disappointed in the graphics level.

    But in the intervening years I'd gotten married, had kids, played a lot of other games, and given the time I now have to play, I'm looking for something different and original. Id seems to think that they can coast on demonic bitmaps and licensing forever.

  28. Article blatantly mistaken by VoidWraith · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Zombies die quicker with shots to the head than shots to the body, at least with the pistol. It takes two or three shots to the head, as opposed to the correctly mentioned six body shots. And this is on the Normal difficulty. But honestly, if you're going to dis DOOM3, don't rattle on something that actually exists! If I recall correctly, it has per-pixel hit detection too.

  29. Oh, believe you me... by James+A.+D.+Joyce · · Score: 3, Funny

    ...both Taco's hand and Zonk's hand are doing the same things.

    --

    Ron dies in chapter 9 of book 7.
  30. Wrong by Cornflake917 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "I'll bet money that there are still more people playing Quake 3 than all those games put together."

    Nope. CS has been by far the biggest multiplayer FPS. Unreal Tournament comes in a distant second.

    See for yourself.

    And from talking to other gamers, it seems that most of the Quake 3 players have moved on to either Painkiller, RTCW. And don't forget Call of Duty, Battlefield (1942,vietnam,2), and Day of Defeat...I think some one is a little behind on their FPS's :)

    1. Re:Wrong by veritron · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Umm Counterstrike is based on the Half Life engine, which came out before Quake III did. Counterstrike has much lower system requirements than Quake III does.

  31. Doom 3 is more a demo then a standalone game by SillyNickName4me · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Back in the days of Doom 2 and Quake, there was no real competition to what ID made. In the days of Quake 2 there was, but ID was the one who made the best engine, and they were the first to sell a game based on it obviously. Quake 2 was just as bad a game as Doom 3 is when looking at the single player part of it.

    What was good about Quake 2 was its multiplayer mode. While Quake 1 allowed multiplayer as well, the initial DOS version required either external tools for IP networking, or a nullmodem cable or modem connection for multiplayer modes.

    Then came Quake 3, which never got a playable single player mode, rather, it concentrated on multiplayer mode almost exclusively. The engine however was capable of single player mode quite well as shown by for example Return to Castle Wolfenstein.

    By the time of Quake 3, it was clear that ID could create a good engine, but needed third parties for creating good content, and one can argue that Quake 3 served more as a demonstration of the graphics capabilities of the Engine then anything else.

    In the years to follow quite a few good games were build on this engine, including what I still consider one of the best multiplayer games so far, Enemy Territory. This resulted from finding a very good balance between complexity of gameplay (relatively simple) and realism (amazingly good for its time). You can get inmersed in the games without having to learn too much, and can quickly learn enough to have an enjoyable gaming experience.

    It seems to me the mistakes with Doom 3 are in 2 distinct areas. First of all, the balance between gameplay and realism is not right (as the article suggests also). Second, and imho even more important, ID can't create proper content, and rehashing the same old content in a new engine is just boring. They saw this when making Quake 3, and didn't even try, but failed to remember this for Doom 3. They were making a demo for the engine and confused it with making a complete game with entertaining content.

    To me this is quite evident from the fact that old (Doom 2) based games like terminal velocity and a game like Duke Nukem 3d are a lot more fun to play then anything ID ever made except maybe for the original Doom, Quake and Wolfenstein.

  32. Re:And I'm willing to bet the underlying problem i by SillyNickName4me · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The interesting thing, I think, is that Doom I & II were released shareware. Doom had to be a seriously good game or no one would ever have bought the full version. How many full versions of Doom3 would have been sold, I wonder?

    The original versions of Doom 1 and 2 were called shareware, but they were not proper shareware. A possitive name for them would be 'demo', a less positive name would be 'crippleware'. ID used a shareware like method by lack of a proper and widespread distribution channel, but for the rest very little changed.

    If you wanted, you could have downloaded a demo version of Doom 3, and looked at the game before buying it, just like I did.

    What did make a difference of course is that due to the hype, more people got the full version of Doom 3 without ever seeing the demo.

    Were Doom 1 and 2 good games? I think they were, but mostly due to being different from anything else at the time, and thus being revolutionary. Doom 3 just rehashes the same kind of content, and well, we have seen enough of it already.

    An entirely different question is what will happen with the engine on the long term. For example, I do run the Quake 3 engine a lot, but not because I play QUake 3 a lot... I did run the Quake 1 engine a lot, but not ecause of playing Quake 1 that much (tho I did play and finish it)

    As I mentioned in another post, ID is not good at creating content, and ever since total conversions of Doom 2 started appearing, it became clear that they needed others to make good games based on their engines. They fully realized this when they made Quake 3, but failed to remember while making Doom 3 obviously.

  33. The cheap scare by sterno · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I played Doom 3 for a couple weeks and I did love the scare factor. There were a couple moments that had me so creeped out I had to stop playing for a while. But in the end, most of the creepiness is something you get immune to by the end. So it has little if any replay value. "Oh yeah, this is the part where I step on the pentacle and the screen goes red, and I hear screams of, 'we took your 50 dollars muahahahaha', can be heard."

    I think the big problem with most FPS games these days is that the story that goes into them always feels like a lame excuse to kill crap. You run into each bigger and badder boss of some level and you get some new uber weapon to kill him with. There's a story, but it's only to give some sense of logic to all these things you have to shoot.

    Frankly, until the technology's evolution rate slows down, we'll have to deal with this crap. I mean, can somebody tell me what the plot is of far cry? I have no idea, I just know it has really realistic looking water. When the technology evolves to become more of a story telling medium than an R&D lab for rendering techniques, we may have something. Doom seems to forshadow that a bit, having effectivley ignored the multiplayer element in favor of atmospherics, etc, but it still seems too interested in graphics rendering navel gazing. In the meantime, the FPS genre will make up for it's utter lack of creativity by networking us so we can kill eachother and drool over the special effects wizardry.

    Frankly the only game that I've seen recently that I thought was genuinely innovative was PlanetSide. I've been playing it for two years now and it's still way better than anything else out there. It's not that pretty and it's a massive resource hog, but it really is a good demonstration of where this goes. It falls a bit short, but it at least gives you a grander sense of some point to the fighting.

    On most games, you fight a round and you kill, capture flags, etc, then the round ends and you start over. PlanetSide does get to feeling like a hampster wheel after a while because there is no win condition, but there's at least a larger sense of the battle always going on and that your contribution to it does have an influence. I think what comes after it should be really interesting, but we'll have to wait and see.

    --
    This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
  34. Not accurate to how people use game engines. by moultano · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I take it that you have some significant experience in non-realtime rendering, but it doesn't sound like you have much experience with game engines and how level designers use them.

    Precomputed light maps do indeed have to do with the choice of engine, because the engine takes care of computing the lightmaps for you. Halflife 2 for instance, supports normal mapped radiosity calculations, in which the diffuse lighting components are added along different vectors during compilation, and then dotted with the normal map during the rendering. "Level designers" don't store them in textures, the compile tools that are associated with the engine do, and the engine takes care of displaying them appropriately.

    Having precomputed lightmaps in the doom 3 engine would break all the internal consistency of the lighting. Mobile lights in engines based on precomputed lighting are treated differently from static lights. Doom 3 doesn't have this distinction.

    The doom 3 approach allows lights to be much more dynamic, but when a light is that dynamic, you can't have precomputed light maps. You wouldn't have any way of updating them to reflect changing light conditions. Every time an imp warps in, all the lights dim. This couldn't be done realistically with precomputed light maps.

    Adding precomputed light maps would require redoing all the internal assumptions about lights in the engine, and you would be basically writing your own.

  35. Re:It's the multiplayer, stupid. by MynockGuano · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Half-Life 2......25316 players
    UT2k4............ 6611 players
    Half-Life........30964 players

    Total............62891 players

    Quake 3 Arena.... 2444 players
    Maybe it isn't half...but to say that the office LAN world accounts for 25x more than the online play is stretching it, I think.
  36. Blades good, shotguns and pistols bad? by swb · · Score: 2, Informative

    It's a great book, but I take issue with the author's weapons advice.

    Disparaging pistols and shotguns because they're close range weapons makes and promoting the epitome of close-range weapons, a blade, makes no sense.

    I also think that the M1 carbine is a terrible choice for a weapon

    While it might be cheap (or was cheap in surplus form at one time), the ammo would be nowhere as easy to come by as .223 Remington (AR-15/M-16 ammo, aka 5.56). And its ammo also is notoriously ineffective at any range.

    The best weapon is likely to be civilian sporting weapons, if only for the widely available ammunition. 12 guage shotgun shells capable of blowing a head off at 25 yards could be found anywhere. There's also a half-dozen hunting rounds (.308, .30-06, 30-30, .270, .243) that are likely to be easily found at sporting goods stores and other places where you'd be scrounging for anything.

    The best rifle choices are likely to be M4-style AR-15s in .223 Remington and the AK-47. An AR-15 based weapon has a ton of existing ammo (and compatibility with military weapons), is accurate and ideally powered for head shots at ranges most people can be accurate at.

    I think AKs tend to be less accurate, but they're also dead reliable, even when full of mud or rust. Ammo availability would be good, but not what the AR-15 clones would have in the US. Outside the US, the AK would be a no-brainer.

    The author is mostly right about machine guns, but I have to believe that in some limited situations, a high volume of fire from a large-caliber gun (US .50 M2, Russian 12.7mm) would be excellent at stopping mid-sized mobs of zombies or clearing paths for armored vehicles to pass through. Even though only head shots are killers, a single .50 cal bullet will easily cut several zombies in half. Massed fire on a narrow field of zombies could grind them into a much less threatening mess.

    Handguns are more effective than the author claims, despite the difficulty in getting headshots outside of 35 feet or so. At panic ranges a handgun is indispensable and its size makes carrying as a backup a no-brainer.

    Many hunting pistols (mostly 6" barrel revolvers) would be decent with scopes at ranges up to 150 feet and be more maneuverable than any rifle, and the ammo is everywhere.

  37. Makes me wish... by antic · · Score: 2, Informative


    Reading all of this material about zombies makes me wish that they existed to provide a bit of sport!

    Anyone who hasn't seen Shaun of the Dead, check it out -- quite amusing.

    --
    'Thats they exact same thing a banana wrench monkey.'
  38. Slashdot Singalong... by Bad+to+the+Ben · · Score: 2, Funny

    with apologies to Mr Don McLean;

    A long, long time ago...
    I can still remember
    How those zombies used to make me smile.
    And I knew if they had a chance
    That they would make me crap my pants,
    And, maybe, I'd be happy for a while.

    But february made me shiver
    With every copy Id delivered.
    Bad news on the Usenets;
    What happened to my killfests?

    I can't remember if I cried
    When a zombie took me from behind,
    I checked that fucking room ten times,
    The day that Id died.

    So bye-bye, Mr Developer guy,
    My new system isn't ready,
    So the frame rates are dry.
    Those good old boys were enjoying Far Cry,
    Singing "in this game, give a headshot, they die",
    In this game give a headshot, they die.

    Did you get the flashlight mod,
    Cause your character's a dumbass sod,
    Has to always let one go?
    Do you believe these zombies spawn,
    Repetition, boy it makes you yawn,
    And can you teach me how to save and load?

    Well, I know I put a bullet in him,
    It went in right above his chin,
    But you need five more to use,
    And that means that you lose,

    I was a lonely teenage fraggin' fuck
    With a with a pr0n collection of Kirsten Kreuk,
    But I knew I was out of luck
    The day that Id died.

    I started singin',
    "bye-bye, Mr Developer guy."
    My new system isn't ready,
    So the frame rates are dry.
    Those good old boys were enjoying Far Cry,
    Singing "in this game, give a headshot, they die",
    In this game give a headshot, they die.