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Getting Open Source to the Dialup Masses
WillSmith writes "South Africa's Mark Shuttleworth Foundation has a solution to getting open source out to places with low broadband : the "freedom toaster". The idea is simple : a bring-and-burn software kiosk."
Eeeeeextra Crispy!
:%s/Open Source/Free Software/g
YTARY!
As I can't get to the mercilessly Slashdotted site, maybe someone who did can answer a question for me:
Are there any costs for the user associated with this? The main allure of open source software is that it's free. Although I'm sure if there are costs, it will be comparatively cheap compared to Microsoft, but when you start talking about third world countries, even small costs can be prohibitive. Will people be able to donate CDs to this project so that the project will not have to charge money to reimburse itself for the CDs?
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This isn't the sig you're looking for. Move along.
LOL, brand new story and already http://www.freedomtoaster.org/ seems slashdotted. Long live google's cache :-)
this server is down already and this is like what, the second/third post..
I almost thought they were actually going to bring food to places where it lacks. That'd be a freedom toaster alright.
http://www.freedomtoaster.org/includes/database.my sql.inc
The more advanced the technology, the more open it is to primitive attack
I call it "the mail." Each house gets a local kiosk called a "mailbox." Whenever someone needs Open Source software, a central "server" sends the software to the "mailbox" in "trucks."
Someone should totally do this.
Alternative Info at this Site
Why doesn't /. just mirror such links to sites where possible to prevent the /. effect from crashing the sites. Listing a site on /. is becoming a defacto DOS attack on it.
Never Politically Correct ~ I prefer the facts If you don't like what I say, get a life, or comment yourself.
It seems to me that OSS in Linux distributions need some form of update that doesn't require downloading the entire application again.
Apt and Yum seem to be the main software update mechanisms in use at the moment on Linux, but both seem to require you to download the entire application or library that you're updating.
Surely some sort of patch system can be devised?
I understand that providing patches for multiple versions could be troublesome, but couldn't they be cumulative?
The current bandwidth requirements to keep a Linux system up to date seem to be completely out of reach for dial-up users.
Haven't read the article since the server's gone already, but what's to prevent someone from say downloading warez and burning that onto a CD? Would they get into trouble if someone did? Personally I don't think it should, but then again, considering how tools are often vilified based on one possible use.
http://mirrordot.org/
In some parts of the world, broadband internet has a somewhat lower priority than things like clean drinking water and efficient sewers. {Even though you have to admit the logistics are simpler}.
The bandwidth of a Ford Transit packed with CD-Rs should certainly not be underestimated!
Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
You must be new here. Read the FAQ.
I have literally just got back from upgrading my sister in-law's pc from RH 9 to Ubuntu. She just got an iPod and I decided to upgrade the OS before installing gtkpod.
So there I am all ready to apt-get gtkpod and...
...where is the ppp dialer? It's not there. Now I know that ubuntu tries to be lightweight but surely something could come out to make way for a gnome ppp program? Not being able to get on line pretty much ended my quest to get the ipod working.
It seems to have wvdial so I could probably have got online that way. But that is not going to help the mums and dads, though.
http://michaelsmith.id.au
Read this part of the FAQ.
Not a Twitter sockpuppet... but I wish I was.
If the OSS community could convince AOL to add a Linux distro to their ubiquitous CDs, I'm sure it would reach a lot of people. AOL may not be blanketing the world with disks like they used to, but they are still everywhere (in USPS change-of-address packets, next to store cash registers, and in the occasional Sunday newspaper).
Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.
RMS has many times said that the GNU Project isn't about Open Source.
Who pays for the hardware for this?
Who pays the rental for its location? No point placing it where no one can find it? Need to be in a mall or something.
Who insures it against all thrid party risks? If this is in a public place then it need insuring.
Who maintains it?
Who designs it?
etc.
Pipe dream people. Move along.
Everyone might want a different distro. Maybe burn and hand out the most obvious distros and then let anyone who wanted a different distro burn it themselves. Maybe that is how it works?
For those who don't get it/ 1816257&tid=107
http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/10/23
"Sure there's porn and piracy on the Web but there's probably a downside too."
And why stop at distros?
There's plenty of free/oss media out there - music, software for other OSes, games, independent films...
In an area where money is scarce and software/media is expensive, I can see a "free media" kiosk being in serious demand.
Imagine what the kids at your local mall would think if they could walk in with a couple blank CDs and walk out with some a couple hip-hop albums from some local small-time artist. Sure would piss off Wal-Mart...
Do they run Linux on this toaster?
the "freedom toaster" is toast!
If "disco" means "I learn" in Latin, does "discothèque" mean "I learn technology"?
A better idea in my mind would be to provide a dynamic cache, only enabled once the site goes down. That way the site gets their ad-revenue to the limit of the possible, and once it crashes, the cache is enabled for all the subsequent readers. This might be hard to implement, but I don't see any real objections to this.
Gravity Sucks
Honestly even SLS was bareley downloadable on a 2400 baud modem. It took me freaking 2 weeks in 1992 to get a barely usable system.
A reliable source for Freedom Toast!
"the freedom to change it if we like"
"the freedom to share it with anyone, for free"
I must admit it sounds like open source software to me, perhaps I'm missing something. Could you eleborate on the distinction, as you see it?
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
No, he is refering to areas with low broadband availability. It's just a bit badly written.
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
Oops, I meant "referring". Bad writing indeed...
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
You are quite clearly new here. It is not at all uncommon for sites to be slashdotted seconds after they have hit the front page, even before a single post has been made.
I'd estimate that most patches these days are due to software vulnerabilities. If these machines aren't connected to the internet full time, then the need to patch frequently probably diminishes some. Though, you are right - the problem still persists for functionality bugs.
Do they run Linux on this toaster?
You have to install it yourself. It comes with Windows preloaded.
I'm a South-African who volunteers for the Shuttleworth Foundation and subscribes to the same LUG mailing lists as the people who design, build and mintain the toasters.
The latest version of the freedom toaster also contains the Gutenberg project (free ebooks) and the Open CD.
Yup, you are right this is a bad thing...
:)
That's why the conary package system is there
It uses binary diffs for updates and use changesets instead of packages...
Try it on our distribution, Foresight Linux... http://www.foresightlinux.com/
This reminds me of back when I was younger. My dad and I would go down to the Software Depot with a big pack of floppy disks.
They had a big catalog of shareware games: Duke Nukem, Commander Keen, Secret Agent. They were free to copy--though if you didn't bring your own floppies, you had to pay for those.
This concept of bringing your own CD-Rs doesn't sound any different, just an update of the times when software programs won't fit on a flopy disk.
I hope they are offering some open source games. I'm looking forward to whooping some South Africans in FreeCiv, dialups be damned.
The site is down but you can still use the google cache. FreedomToaster.org Google Cache
I guess this comment applies more to open source OS's than to open source software in general, but the thing that always kept me from using Linux at home back I only had dial-up was my winmodem. Granted, I could have gone out and bought a $40 hardware modem that would have solved the problem, but I couldn't ever justify that for myself or (more importantly) for my wife. Has there been much progress in the last few years in supporting winmodems under Linux?
Now that I have cable internet, I'd put Linux on my home computer, but the hard drive in my 6 year-old PC has too much crud stored on it to make room for Linux... Now I just have to justify a new computer. (A new hard drive would work, but it would be nice to have a new PC.)
By the way... what's "low broadband"?
This is lastyears news,
Not only has this been featured on Go Open back in 2004 ( a tv show made by Mark) but the site is also just as old.
"WebTV: bringing the Internet into the shallow end of the gene pool since 1995" - Martin Bishop
Sure beats the good old days walking around campus with the shoebox full of Slackware floppies.
Thank you both for the links.
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
Does this come with a pack of Victory Cigarettes?
Time to get ready for the Two Minutes Hate!
Sorry, this is dumb but do you think that's really his last name? I mean the guy went into space and his last name just happens to have the word "shuttle" in it?
.. I'm sure there are more.
I'm thinking all famous people must change their last names to make then sound cool:
Bill Joy
Mark Cuban
Let me know, it's a question that's been bugging me for years.
Does it produce freedom toast? Will it include a freedom frier for freedom fries as well?
And although I'm sure this idea will get flame broiled here, I think Linspire would be the distro for AOL to go with, as it is clearly aimed at the same general audience. Maybe Linspire would actually take this up with AOL?
"Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck
The person using this "freedom toaster" still has to provide their own blank CD, right? Why would they spend $1.00 on a blank CD and then burn it on the freedom toaster when, in most 3rd world countries, the person selling you the blank CD for $1.00 will gladly sell you a CD with MS Windows and MS Office on it for $2.00?
Here is MirrorDot's version of the story (with pictures):9 30fe2950a977492/index.html
http://www.mirrordot.org/stories/1e35bff1111e41a6
You sir are a complete fucking dumbass and remind me of the arrogant little pricks that I used to beat up in school. You think that just because someone is of a small market share / percentage that they aren't worth the effort?
Lets see how you would like it if the American Govt. or your insurance company stopped policies / coverage / aid just because you were part of a small percentage of americans with a affliction / uncontrollable illness.
Winner is me.
Open Source does not mean you can change it. You can have a look at the source code, this doesn't mean you are allowed to make modifications or derivative work.
This is of course not correct. Take a look at the Open Source definition, section 3 in particular.
The truth is that the distinction between free software and open source is one of philosophy; it is two different ways to think about the same software. Open source guys usually look at it as a good method for developing software, while free software guys look at it as a moral issue: you should not keep software away from people, hence software must be free (as in freedom).
"Oppression and harassment is a small price to pay to live in the land of the free." -- Montgomery Burns.
It's called "Go Open" and was produced in South Africa.
You can download the first two seasons for free at:
http://www.legaltorrents.com/
First 'freedom fries', and now 'freedom toasters'? C'mon people, changing the names of such everyday things just because a country pissed us off is silly. Why not just call it a French toaster like the rest of the world?
My situation means that I'm stuck with a dialup connection for much of the time. I use Debian (etch/testing).
The most frustrating thing that I find with apt is that it's necessary to re-download the entire package list simply to find out what packages have been updated. If you like to subscribe to two sections (eg. I get both testing and unstable for a few packages that I want more recent), that's a good 45 minutes of downloading new package lists just to have the lists up-to-date... it's very offputting if I really only want to update a 200k package. And if you let them go stale for a few days before actually downloading/installing any updated packages, there's a more and more significant chance that some packages will have been updated further with the listed files having disappeared from the repository... requiring yet another apt-get update to find out what the filenames for the new versions are. (Often it's easier to just go to http://packages.debian.org/ and download them directly, but this defeats the purpose of actually having apt.)
A straightforward solution to this would be to support and provide diffs for package lists. Even if they were only left on the servers for a few days, it'd be easy enough to make sure I updated every few days. I note that this has actually been listed as a feature request since January 2002 , but has unfortunately not been implemented (although it looks like there's now a patch being developed, which is promising). Using something like rsync (eg. via apt-rsync is also an option. It requires the mirror site to support rsync, though, which many don't. Also if lots of people suddenly used rsync to update package lists, I think those mirrors that do support it would stop very quickly, simply due to the CPU load that rsync puts on the server.
Diffs for actual package updates would be great, but I don't find the lack of them to be anywhere near as annoying as not having diffs for package lists, simply because I don't usually care about updating the majority of packages to be most up-to-date. Package lists, however, have to be updated frequently, irrespective of the size of the package actually wanted.
Just thinking about it now, it'd be nice if apt could more clearly indicate which packages need to be updated for an upstream release, versus those where the package maintainer has simply made a minor adjustment somewhere. eg. If I have openoffice.org 1.1.2-7 installed, then I really don't care about downloading 40-50MB to "upgrade" to openoffice.org 1.1.2-9, but I might care if it was going to 1.1.4-3, because that's a much more significant jump. That's something I can cope without for now, though.
My God, how arrogant and ignorant you are. I don't know about the rest of the world, but in the U.S. there are still a lot of URBAN areas that don't have cable or DSL. I live in one.
And what makes you think everybody on dialup can afford $40+ a month for broadband? I sure can't! Can you tell the difference between $40+ dollars a month for broadband, and $99 a year for unlimited dialup? Except for the times I'd like to download a new Linux distro, I never have need for broadband.
From where I sit, you're obviously rolling in dough. Too bad it can't buy you some smarts.
I said no text!
-Rich
but when you start talking about third world countries, even small costs can be prohibitive
South Africa may be a third-world country if you divide GDP by population, due to the relatively large population, but it is by no means poor - it has the 29th-largest GDP in the world, and most of the wealth is held by about a quarter of the population (about 10 million people), meaning that for that segment of the population, South Africa is first-world. Most of the white people here, and now the "emerging black middle class" too, live essentially first-world lives. These people can more than afford something like this even if it isn't cheap - small costs are definitely NOT a problem for the middle class here (who form the market for this - not the poor, obviously). What is a problem in South Africa, and is what provoked the development of this, is high telecommunications costs, but these are not the result of a lack of infrastructure or wealth - these are purely the result of the fact that South African telecomms is dominated by a single monopoly provider that is legally protected by government regulations, and which sets their prices at "what the market will bear". For example ADSL access here costs about five times international norms, and is severly limited (e.g. 3GB monthly usage cap). Dial-up call charges are basically billed "per-minute" and extremely expensive. So again, this is not due to the economy being unable to support it - the country in fact HAS the bandwidth, but most of the pipes (national and international) are lying unused because of the monopoly provider - they deliberately create artificial scarcity of bandwidth in order to justify charging retail prices for wholesale access.
One of these toasters is just down the road from me, it seems. I will definitely be using it to get up to date Linux distributions.
heh, I actually used the Freedom Toaster. Keep in mind that the majority of South Africans still rely on dialup for their internet (due to our monopoly telecoms providor, Telkom, see http://www.hellkom.co.za/ for more info) Not everybody can just go and download the ISO files, for obvious reasons. And it's not as easy as getting your friend-of-a-friend to burn you a copy, because as I mentioned, chances are they are also still on dialup. The only solution is this bring&burn toaster. Ignoring the name, it actually works beautifully. While I was there I even had the enjoyment of meeting the majority of the IT campus pupils, all who seemed very interested in this whole "Open Source" business. So even though it may sound weird, or is a weird idea, fact remains, it works.
We live in a country where communications are run by a single monopoly, Telkom. They control the entire POTS system and all internet pipes out of South Africa. They are notorious for charging crazy prices for bandwidth and internet access, as well as being a reseller and ISP (how uncompetitive can you get?)
We are in a battle to get the price of ADSL down in South Africa. We have a population of 45 million, and because of the high costs we have only seen 100,000 users sign up in the last 4 years. That's a grand total penetration of 0.22% ! We are battling to get support from government because they own 40% of the shares, and they are profiting dearly from Telkom's exthortion.
A 512k connection with a 3gig cap will cost you ZAR 819 a month, which is about $126!!
Check out http://www.mybroadband.co.za/ for more information about the situation.
Stay cool, fellow. Nice to think that somebody loves us - but I was taught to wait until one was properly introduced. Worries me that you folks think in terms of love. With all due respect, I can't get further than common politeness - and I have trouble getting that far. Are you sure you're ready for French toasters ? Look at a baguette, then look at yout toaster. Some modification required ?
How many beans make five, anyhow ?
this is the best thing since sliced bread. now only if they could include open source music in the selection to get teh kids interested as well.