Slashdot Mirror
Genetic Discrimination in the IT Workplace
MisterTut writes "In what could be a troubling trend, one employer- the Burlington Northern Santa Fe Railway -was found to have secretly run unproven genetic tests on workers suffering Carpal Tunnel Syndrome. The company was trying to prove that they were not culpable for cases of Carpal Tunnel Syndrome from which the employees were suffering.
The ethical considerations of such testing, covert and illicit or not, are profound for those of us working in the IT industry."
...a company is not culpable for, say, Carpal Tunnel in a particular worker, because it ultimately is shown to have a genetic component, and the company has already taken reasonable, industry- and regulatory agency-accepted, good-faith steps to mitigate it, but can't be prevented with this type of work in this type of employee (except by taking extreme measures and/or changing the person's job completely)?
That makes a lot of assumptions, but in that event, why would/should the employer be responsible? Should an employee have to pay worker's compensation claims for events that it is not primarily responsible; i.e., events that it has already taken steps to prevent? (Sure, you can argue "Well, Person X wouldn't have gotten Carpal Tunnel at all if they weren't in that job, even if they were genetically predisposed to it", assuming that is established at some point, for the sake of argument. But is the employer always, then, responsible? Under what conditions are they not responsible?)
And further, especially for an at-will employer, why would it not want to avoid workers who won't be able to effectively perform certain tasks, or workers who statistically may become liabilities in the future? What is the source for the reasoning that everyone has a "right" to work, and to work for a particular employer, to those who believe that?
I'm most certainly not saying employers should run secret genetic tests without employee consent. I'm also not making an argument that such testing, even with consent, should necessarily become commonplace. These are larger questions.
And on another note, why is every trend always "troubling", every impact "profound"? I find it amusing that those who would, say, be fully in support of embryonic stem cell research, apparently throwing any ethical concerns to the wind, all of a sudden see "troubling" ethical implications for employers trying to use the same essential tools.
Employers aren't always bad; aren't always in the wrong. You can make assertions that they might gravitate that way, and cite examples, but that doesn't automatically mean all employers' decisions are always wrong and worthy of suspicion, and all employees' decisions and actions are always right and worthy of protection. Note again that I am NOT defending Burlington Northern Santa Fe Railway's decision, or anything having to do with this specific case. I'm speaking in generalities here, and am honestly curious as to peoples' thoughts.
Sounds like Gattaca. So how much would it cost to run these "unproven genetic tests," I'd imagine it's quite expensive. Besides how much of it genetics and how much is just plain wear and tear, if I spent most of my life hunched over a keyboard typing or "playing racket ball" ... oh dammit. No genetic discrimination!
when they find the slashdot reading gene, we are all screwed
PHP is the solution of choice for relaying mysql errors to web users.
From TFA: Granted, this legislation is certainly important, but it sidesteps the central issue: no one should have access to my genetic code without my permission or a warrant. Period. My company can't break into my house and inspect my personal belongings...what makes it OK for them to inspect my genome? Granted, if the above mentioned legislation passes, companies will not be able to overtly discriminate based on these findings...but all this really means is that if they want to get rid of an employee because of genetic considerations, they will just have to dream up some sort of pretense to remove the offending employee.
Yes, I'm sure that if genetic testing of individuals without their consent were to be outlawed, some companies would continue doing it in secret, just as if discrimination was outlawed, some companies would circumvent the law as I outlined above. But the point remains valid: if outlawing discrimination based on genetic tests protects employees to some degree, then it folllows that outlawing the genetic testing of individuals without their consent in the first place would enhance that protection considerably.
More importantly, if this issue isn't nipped in the bud firmly and immediately, we couold find ourselves on a slippery slope of truly brobdingnagian proportions. Imagine a world where you are under constant surveillance by law enforcement...not because you have a history of violent crime, but because you have a genetic predisposition to violence. You find it difficult to get a job because of your genetic predisposition to adult ADD, and you can't get health insurance because you are geneticlly predisposed to heart problems.
A line in the sand must be drawn now, before Gattica becomes an uncomfortable reality.
____
~ |rip/\/\aster /\/\onkey
If they find someone has a genetic flaw that means they are likely to develop CTS, wouldn't they be protected by the disabilities act?
If so, the business would really have to accomodate them with an altered, and likely expensive, work environment.
- Preferences: Solaris 10 (servers), Ubuntu (desktops), Solaris 11 (personal servers) -
Why did select scenes from Gattica suddenly pop into my head?
Feed the need: Digitaladdiction.net
What good is science if you don't use it for evil? There are too many goody-two-shoes scientists out there. Come on, more evil science please.
People are leaving genetic material all over the place all the time. From a practical standpoint this is like anything else that you discard, it doesn't belong to you any more. That being said, I wouldn't appreciate someone using my blood, sweat and tears (always available at work) for testing purposes, but what can I do?
If I were being cloned that would be different. However, I don't think ethical rules cover any of these situations.
I don't practice what I preach because I'm not the kind of person that I'm preaching to.
Just plant some DNA of someone who you know who's never had Carpel Tunnel.
I don't get it.
Once you open the door to proving negatives as accepted social policy, there's no real end in sight.
Land of the free, home of the piss test.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
Carpal Tunnel, hell! What happens when they start testing for the genetic markers indicating a predisposition to spending all day browsing Slashdot? Activity on Slashdot, Fark, and other forums will fall initially fall, then skyrocket after the Great Purge!
Envy my 5 digit Slashdot User ID!
Thanks for mentioning that movie. You are the first to suggest such a connection.
They were doing the research 5 years ago, and stopped over 4 years ago. It doesn't look like they were taking a really serious look at it anyway. How much data can they really get from 200 tests?
The problem is no one wants to assume risk. Shouldn't this be an insurance issue instead of a workman's comp issue? You have insurance companies that don't want any risk but yet want premiums. Part of the recipe for insurance is that you are paying them to assume a risk and they are betting on that risk not falling through. Further, they are making profit off your money via investment. In the case of employers, they are making these deposits on the chance that something does happen. I understand that you don't want to lose at poker, but you're playing the game. I realize this analogy breaks down at some point but isn't it equally unethical to collect insurance premiums from people who have predispositions to ANYTHING? Insurance companies are largely evil entities and unfortunately, necessary evils. My opinion, FWIW.
Insurance companies and businesses have long flip flopped on the concept of "pre-existing conditions". Those are cases where a person is hired who has medical conditions that are potentially expensive to treat (e.g. diabetes, cancer, AIDS, etc.).
It used to be that insurers tried hard not to pay for conditions that existed before the person came onto the plan. As you might expect, it was hugely unpopular (insurance companies really do listen to people) as well as expensive to administer (it's expensive to decide what's pre-existing and what isn't).
I see this as the same way. When you hire a bunch of people, they'll have a range of health issues, some obvious and some hidden. Sure it's possible to try and figure out who might get what conditions, but it's not worth it. When dealing with millions of people being insured, it's typically easier to simply manage the overall risk and adjust prices accordingly. Micromanaging at that level is expensive and wasteful.
Perhaps that day will arrive, shortly after we develop some manner of genetic test to prevent Slashdotters from posting who are incapable of spelling the words carpal or tunnel.
How does the Slashdot Effect happen given that no slashdotters ever RTFA?
The particulars of this case, though, I do find troublesome, with the fact that Burlington Northern Santa Fe are using an unproven method and are preparing to take action on it. However, a good lawyer will probably be able to stop them from (a) firing someone who shows the genetic markers for "carpal tunnel susceptibility," and (b) suggesting that people who do put in claims for carpal tunnel were "going to get it anyway," and disallowing the claims (unless they can show that they did take some action).
There will always be employers who are willing to jump to the conclusion that a predisposition towards something is a guarantee that it will happen. These people will use genetic tests for the latest-found markers, and will wind up not being able to hire anybody.
Strike while the irony is hot! -- The Freethinker
Woohoo, my first spelling Nazi post!
Anyways, I can see the above scenarios happening quite easily.
Not all employers require drug screening. My employer right now has never required me to pee in a bottle. Furthermore, if they tell me tomorrow that I had to, I would have the option of walking away.
The case in question had neither information nor consent. The nature of the test isn't in question; the means used to obtain the testing sample is the problem. In that respect, it is very different from typical drug screening.
On the one hand we espouse the notion that "all people are created equal." It's an excellent core belief for the basis for civilization, government, law, etc. Yet science makes a mockery of this belief because we are not geneticaly equal and those differences impact outcomes that have legal, governmental, and social implications.
It does not take science and genetics to show that all men are not created equal in the sense that you are using the term. Even back in the 1700 some people were born bigger, stronger, smarter, prettier, etc. than others. Everyone has strengths and weaknesses, and inherent advantages and disadvantages due to circumstance.
The phrase, "all men are created equal" is followed by the phrase, "that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights." It then goes on to enumerate some of those rights. Men are created equal in that they are all deserving of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, not in that they are all equally strong, smart, or resistant to cancer.
Hypothetically two similar candidates compete for the same position, one with CTS and one without. Insurance costs for the one with CTS will likely be higher. The candidate without CTS gets the job. The candidate with CTS is later laid off. Can you prove in court that CTS had anything to do with this? You don't seriously think the company will tell the truth about the reasons, do you?
While we're at it, I hear that strip clubs discriminate against disabled dancers when hiring, and supermodels discriminate against geeks when selecting sex partners! This blantant discrimination must end! I say we demand legislation now to mandate quotas for supermodels dating slashdot readers!
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
Did you agree to random drug tests, at their whim? Perhaps they wanted to see your credit report?
In my experience, companies are constantly trying to gain more concessions from their employees, often without granting anything to the employee in exchange.
It's natural, then, that they're moving on to these genetic test - at least from the company's perspective. Employees, however, are balking at this brand new intrusion for now. But how long until it's just like that drug test that everyone else seems to be OK with, simply because they aren't looking for you?
If you don't speak out for others, no one will be left to speak out for you. This is why Unions are still a good thing - it allows workers to speak up against policies such as this while protecting themselves from direct retribution at work, since the company doesn't know who, exactly, started the complaint.
Was it because she was a bad employee? Nope - her work record was spotless and her evaluations were impeccable. No, it was because BN-SF went out of their way to try to make people quit before they reached retirement. They did this to everyone in hopes of avoiding paying those hard-earned pensions.
Therefore, it doesn't surprise me at all to hear that they're trying to screw over yet another set of employees. That's been their SOP for years, so I can't imagine they'd turn tail now.
By the way, if you want an example of a completely incompetent union, there you have it. I'm not pro-union to begin with, but I'd expect one to at least try to help its members.
Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
As an older worker, I have a pre-existing condition, multiple sclerosis.
:-)
My mobility is affected and I certainly can't dance anymore. (The cane was getting to be a hazard to the others on the dance floor. I know because I danced at a XMas party a couple or jobs ago.
Trouble is that I am probably working on the last job I will ever be able to get. I'm not that old, 50, so what am I supposed to do what that job 'goes away' as all consulting tech jobs that I ever worked on over the past 25 years have done.
I'm too handicapped and I may be too old for retraining, despite the Associate's in Business that I am currently getting (at week's end thank you.)
I am just getting tossed out. Its nothing personal but that's just the way it goes. The software I was working on (a CRM system written in Smalltalk,) has been end-of-lifed.
What am I supposed to do for money? I don't want a free ride but odds are that, if I wouldn't hire someone disabled like me, nobody else will either.
I'm not dead yet, but some days, I sort of get the feeling that everybody else wishes that I was. so they wouldn't have to be bothered.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
Every last person has different genes and is below average in some category or other. Allowing employers to screen for these conditions is akin to making every action you take illegal. It would simply be a handy dandy basket of excuses ready to to get a company off the hook for the slightest deviation from safe working conditions.
Slipped on loose carpeting and hurt your ankle and out for a couple of days? Ha! Your genes show you only have 99% of the average person's balance control due to a genetic defect in yoru inner ear. You lose.
Don't say this won't happen. It will. You know it will. Corporations aren't evil so much as susceptible to faceless bureaucrats looking for a pat on the back for saving money.
Infuriate left and right
If there is a pattern of harrassing workers near retirement, it should be trivial to prove age discrimination. I don't know about the land of the "Free", but in Canada you are guilty of civil rights violation if you discriminate on the basis of age (between 18 and 65). Picking on people with 30 years' seniority or pushing 60 years of age should be a slam-dunk for age discimination. I don't think you can argue "the old ones with only 10 years seniority didn't get this treatment". That would be like arguing "But we only discrimated against the ugly , not the good-looking ones." In either case, rightly, discrimination is a significant component of the management decision. A union that couldn't prove that, then either the pattern is not as obvious as you claim or the union and their lawyers are incompetent. Making engineering supervisors clean toilets is a pretty obvious sign of harrassment.
im surprised nobody has mentioned this, but obesity is one of the biggest links to CPS, see http://www.umm.edu/patiented/articles/who_gets_car pal_tunnel_syndrome_000034_4.htm
but getting people to be healthy is much harder than telling them they have CPS
So...the employer claims that they are not liable for a work related injury because the employee is genetically predisposed to said injury. How far are we from insurance companies refusing coverage for diseases where the victim is genetically predisposed? Thankfully, this specific case was shut down by the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission...I hope that is the trend that is set from this case.
We live in a denial-based society where everything is somebody else's fault. Instead of modifying our behavior or actions to accomodate reality, we come up with some reason to blame our failures on others. Here the railroad fails to provide a safe workplace, so they try to blame it on the genetics of their employees. Do anything except own up to the problem and admit that something might need to change on their part. Next they will want detailed interviews with family members so they can screen out anyone whose parents didn't nuture them "correctly". It won't stop until we live in a Brave New World. The whole process gets institutionalized, and they call it 'idealogy', where facts and reality are inconvenient impediments. Anyone who studies circuits knows that a system needs to apply negative feedback to improve the quality of the output. We have disconnected the feedback and replaced it with essentially noise. This is why our culture is doomed.
You're not quite correct. The original poster was quoting the declaration of independence which always read as I stated. It was, however, strongly influenced by the writings of Locke who wrote "...being all equal and independent, no one ought to harm another in his Life, Health, Liberty, or Estate." 'Estate' was a synonym for possessions in its use at the time. It is my understanding that your assertion about the quote is a myth perpetuated by those who were confused by statements about how Jefferson took Locke's works and modified them and who assumed Jefferson was quoting more or less verbatim (which was not the case).
In any case, Locke based much of his work upon existing Jewish "moral" law which held that rulers were not above the law and their actions were not unquestionable. Numerous other cultures (including Greek, Roman, numerous African, etc.) had long codified similar beliefs. It was not new, except among the aristocracy of western Europe.
To get back to the original topic, how does the any of this make a difference as far as the interpretation of how men are held to be equal is concerned?
I would suggest taking alternative methods of healing very carefully. A friend of mine tried some alternative methods of dealing with his bi-polar disorder. He was on drugs that were kinda-sorta doing the job. They kept him stable and relatively happy, but they had some unpleasant side effects, namely weight gain and very bad acne. So, he decided to try an alternative method of dealing with it. He saw a glowing article on a certain vitamin therapy, started taking massive quantities of vitamins, dropped off his drugs, and eventually tried to kill himself.
The problem with 'alternative' medicines is that too few of the alternatives have been properly studied, they have been debunked, were studied by biased groups, or were studied using poor methods. Conventional medicine, while rarely offering up magic bullets, does a pretty good job telling you the sort of odds you are walking into. Alternative medicines on the other hand tend to be like setting off through a mine field. You might get something really that works, but you also might get some new age hippie bullshit.
So, if you have exhausted what conventional medicine has to offer, it isn't bad to branch out and explore a little. That said, I would be damn weary about dropping off drugs. The drugs might not be improving things, but they might be slowing down the progression of your illness or holding it steady. Further, you can try some alternatives without dropping off your drugs. There isn't a reason in the world why you have to drop off your drugs while you are trying acupuncture, meditation, or an improved diet.
My sister was hired by the NRC, coming on with a strong case of Primary MS. They accomodated her for several years (large screen monitor back when those cost a pretty penny, two hour "lunch" so she could nap midday on a cot in her office, etc), until her medical condition compelled retirement-- increased eye tremors left her unable to read a book or computer screen, even with technological assistance.
The government employee pool is large enough to be statistically self-insuring-- the health plan isn't spectacular, but it's far from bad, and a minor thing like Relapsing/Remitting MS isn't even a blip on the radar.
//Information does not want to be free; it wants to breed.
The genetics of Carpal Tunnel Syndrome and the case of Burlington Northern Santa Fe Railroad are discussed at length in one chapter of a recent book, Human Genome Epidemiology (HuGE). This chapter is freely available on the CDC's website. The chapter addresses the issues: "...are genetic risks likely to be important in these cases of CTS; and is there a scientific rationale for testing these workers?" The authors of the article conclude that... "There is no information indicating that equally exposed workers, with and without various genotypes, are at different risks of CTS. What data are available suggest that genetic factors play a very minor role, if any in male railroad track workers. Ultimately, some genetic factors may be found that contribute along with occupational factors to CTS but such information is not available at this time." More literature for the ambitious at PubMed.
Spoken like someone who knows jack and shit about mental illness, and/or a scientologist. If you are in complete denial that the human body occasionally goes chemically out of whack, I would hate to see your 'cure' for diabetes. "No ass hole, you can eat sugar, it is just in your head that you are going to get sick and die."
The simple fact of the mater is that our body IS a chemical machine that can be fucked with. Give someone MDMA and they WILL become happy and empathetic. Give someone vellum and they will be indifferent to almost anything. Your emotions are controlled by the chemistry of this machine. Now, are modern day psyche drugs crude at best? Absolutely, though that has less to do with medical abilities and more to do with long held denial that people could will away mental illness that retarded any true understand of the field for years. Wishing away a mental illness is roughly as effective as wishing away diabetes.
Most people are blatantly ignorant when it comes to mental illness. Hell, I was blatantly ignorant of it until I had to watch people I was close to go through it first hand. I don't get depressed. I can't even contemplate being sad for no reason. That said, this isn't true for all people. For some people, absolutely everything could be right in the world, recognize the absolutely nothing is wrong, and they could still wish themselves dead for reasons they don't know. No amount of reasoning or yoga can fix that because it is completely irrational to begin with and purely the result of a defect in their chemistry.
There is a difference between melodramatic people looking for attention and people who are clinically depressed. I personally hope that none of the later has to have you as a friend, as the last thing they need is one more stupid asshole telling them that it is all in their head and to stop being so melodramatic. That sort of worthless advice is what drives people to try one of the more effective methods of offing themselves that you suggest.