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Introducing a Child to Constructive Computer Use?
trevorgensch asks: "I have a young boy, about 6 years old, who is starting to take an interest in the computer I seem to spend too much time at lately. Lots of Slashdot readers out there must have had experiences with their young child wanting to learn more. I am all for it! But where to start? He has had a bit of experience with the Internet and children's sites and official sites of Pixar and Disney movies, but he wants more. Any pointers?"
My son has been fluent with a mouse for about a year, since he was 3 1/2. He has graduated to GameCube (yes, he blazes on Mario Kart). I brought him to Nick Jr sites, played Bob the Builder, went to Shockwave and let him play some puzzle games, and his favorite PC game is Snail Mail (sorry, don't have the link). I think its a great thing, he has his own computer (PIII 550) and he goes at his pace.
Check my link to see more of what we do as father and son =)
"I cannot think of any need in childhood as strong as the need for a father's protection." -- Sigmund Freud
A gentoo Linux command prompt livecd (not the graphical new one) and a FreeBSD (or netbsd if you like)
:)
Teach him to work it at first. Teach him how to look up data online, how to use links at that command prompt. He will respect that machine and what it can do FAR more once he spends time building it
Get him reading Linux Kernel Internals and other things.
He'll come away with understanding but without becoming too embroiled in the corporate wars. (let him form his own decisions about it later, I may hate Microsoft, and always have, but at one time I did quite a bit of gaming on the sole windows machine I used to have, now I no longer need them and can use Wine and Cedega to do so if gaming becomes a necessity)
All in all you will get a technically aware child who will understand (hopefully) that something is far more precious if you build it yourself and put your own blood sweat and code than if you just throw away 299.99 bucks on it and expect to learn nothing and have it still work.
" What luck for rulers that men do not think" - Adolf Hitler
I showed my (now 7 year old) brother to Lego's website. It has a lot of games there, but many of them are of an educational type too. It is, howver, rather flash intensive, but my brother enjoys it.
I suggest you show him the World Wide Web and explain somethings about it. Show him some programs (by the way, what OS do you have?) Let him go on the computer by himself someday, maybe with or without supervision.
Let him become a guru by12!
Point him in the direction of slashdot!
The Jump Start series. Sam's Club has a 6CD pak I think for $60. Animals, numbers, etc.
And here is Snail Mail http://www.shockwave.com/sw/content/snailmail
"I cannot think of any need in childhood as strong as the need for a father's protection." -- Sigmund Freud
I learned Basic at the age of 8 on an apple. I moved onto DOS around 10 because I had to (every pc shipped with it). I jumped onto linux and bsd at the age of 14 and at 17 and 18 moved completely into *nix. I haven't looked back. I left IT, but friends and family know that I'll outperform, outfix and undercharge every IT shop in town. I will not, however compromise my passion for *nix by working at any computer shop ever again.
Hope that helps... I wasn't 6 like your son, but I was 8, and it was the first time a personal computer was in my vicinity... from then I got hooked.
" What luck for rulers that men do not think" - Adolf Hitler
Introduce him to GTA as soon as possible. That way he'll be nicely inured to all the violence and sex, so by the time he sees it outside the house, it won't be a big deal.
By the way, when he starts having nightmares, DON'T coddle him...nightmares never killed anyone (although I'm not sure about night terrors), and what does not kill you makes you stronger.
Trust me, one day he'll thank you.
Probably while you're asleep...you won't feel a thing.
____
~ |rip/\/\aster /\/\onkey
I introduced both of my kids (now ages 6 and 8) to computers at an early age. We started with games that taught them something, like math, reading, or memory skills. The Reader Rabbit series is pretty good for this.
I try to steer them away from surfing the web, because most sites that are oriented toward kids their ages tend to be pure entertainment (usually tied to a brand of toy). But it gets hard when their friends start telling them about the latest update to barbie.com.
Unfortunately, there is little (if any) open source or Linux software aimed towards young children.
Good Luck!
That's what I did with my daughter when she was 4-5. She's 18 now and, in her second year of college with a 4.0 majoring in botany. Ok, don't get him a PCjr. I just wanted a little geek-parent-brag. The point is to get him something he can play with, hammer on, and call his own. Something where he can play games and learn the keyboard layout, later doing typing games and then writing documents. Make sure the machine also has a printer somewhere.
"Eve of Destruction", it's not just for old hippies anymore...
Get an old PC(C64, Apple 2xx, IBM PCjr, etc) with basic built in, teach him the basic coding/programming rules as he learns to read and write.
Food not Bombs is a nice platitude but it breaks down when you notice that the Bombees are usually well fed
Do you know about the book Mindstorms by Seymour Papert? His book is about young children learning computers, and I very highly recommend it.
There were similar articles in slashdot:
5 9230&tid=95&tid=146&tid=126&tid=4 6 41207&tid=156&tid=185&tid=4
http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/01/04/0
"When Should Children Be Introduced to Computers?" and
http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/01/03/1
"Introducing Children to Computers?"
for example
HI
Start with Logo. It's a simple language, plus some very basic graphics built into it. Kids like graphics and stuff, so if "something is happening on screen" it feels good.
Then move to Basic in a few weeks/months. Teaches fundamental procedural programming easily.
Then later in a few years or so, depending on your kid's intelligence, C, Lisp , Perl etc.
Try a text-adventure game, such as one of the classic Infocom games or one of the many text games that others have made since then. That will exercise the important skills of reading, typing, and the imagination, and will be pretty fun too.
dtach - A tiny program that emulates the detach feat
http://www2.magmacom.com/~dsleeth/
http://www.perlmonks.org
Can't start early enough...
You don't mention having any software for kids around. There are lots of edutainment titles out there. One company that produces some very high-quality software with characters is Kutoka. They do some great software for both language and math skills. Even my daughter, who is almost five years old now, benefits a lot from their titles.
On another note, you can also find several large investment companies that have a fair amount of online resources available for helping your children learn amount money and saving. I think Fidelity has a whole site for kids, for example.
Why not think back to how you started and go from there? Did you have someone holding your hand or did you explore yourself from first principals on up?
The reason I suggest this is that back when I was that age, I did all the computer learning myself. My parents had no clue and never used the thing so that left it entirely in my hands. I wasn't monitored on the net or while playing games, typing in BASIC programs, etc. (Of course things were different back then as I didn't even get online with BBSes until I was around 14 or 15 with the net following soon after.)
All my parents did was buy the computer equipment (up until I got a job working for the first local ISP), take me to the library to get computer books now and then, and paid for the subscription to a couple magazines over my time growing up, and take me to swap meets (hamfests were awesome). The rest of the time I was typing in BASIC programs, playing games, hacking games, taking the machines apart and putting them back together, understanding IRQs, etc. by myself as I didn't have anyone around to ask. I think if I had had someone to ask all of the time, I'd not be nearly so into computers as I am. (For better or worse...)
If your kid is showing an interest in digging in and understand the machines as opposed to just using them, give them tools, books, magazines, and old hardware and just stand back and see what happens. Something interesting to try might be to not allow access to the web until the kid is able to build a computer from a pile of parts complete with working ethernet to connect it to the network. That might not be entirely reasonable, but it is certainly one way to go. If your kid is showing that kind of desire to understand the internals, you probably want to keep him challenged. Giving him a state of the art computer complete with broadband which you might feel you have to monitor right from the start is like handing him the keys to the Ferrari and telling him to keep it under 45. If he has to build his computer and figure out how to get connected himself, it might go a long ways towards building not only self esteem and pride, but useful skills that many of his peers are going to lack.
Hexy - a strategy game for iPhone/iPod Touch
I meant later on, I should've been more verbose.
" What luck for rulers that men do not think" - Adolf Hitler
And broken games. He will have to get into the BASIC code to fix things.
More seriously, he wont be digging into wikipedia data yet, and cant program that early. Beside browsing websites and drawing pictures, its all games for him.
Do get him hooked up to games on the PC instead of consoles. In a console you just insert the disc and there you go. In the PC you have to install the game, and configure things like the resolution. Dont underestimate the power of broken games to teach alot about how the computers work.
"Give orange me give eat orange me eat orange give me eat orange give me you." -Nim Chimpsky
I have a daughter about that age. I say don't let them watch tv or use the computer. Kick their little butts outside and let them play, explore the world, use their imagination. Get them books, legos an erector set or anything let will let them build and use their imagination.
Whatever you do, do not introduce him to IRC. That's just child abuse.
I got my programming/computer skills with DOS 5.0/6.2 upgrade..introducing someone to linux would be great though. Let them get an early use and learning of the shell.. I was del *.*'ing in DOS when I was around that age _
Death by snoo-snoo!
This would have been funny if you hadn't put the disclaimer up there.
William of Ockham had no beard. The most likely explanation is that it was chewed off by squirrels every morning.
I see a few comments suggesting simple games to teach basic concepts a la Mathblaster. A key thing to note is that such games do not teach computer literacy any more than the "burger" icon on a McDonald's cash register teaches English literacy. In such cases, you could be using a book or Cuisenaire rods and get the same or better results. (Actually, the rods may be a good idea to help encourage abstract thinking.) Drills encourage memorization, not thinking. You'll want his abstract thinking abilities to grow; this is actually the most critical thing to develop.
If you want the child to understand computers you can start out with a simple language like BASIC. (I don't think there's any reason why Java or perl wouldn't work as well; C might also be good.) Don't forget to cover number skills; he should be able to understand different bases and exponentiation. (That's understand, not just "mechanically convert".)
If you like, you can skip the programming and focus on the numbers. Once he has a grasp of how to do basic loops and conditionals you might inroduce him to simple turing machines. (Say, a device with only a few (1 to 3) instructions and have him learn to write programs that would do something simple, like add two numbers. (You'll need to have worked on the math before this, obviously.) This should give him an understanding of the connection between lower level machine code and higher level languages.
I'm going to end the post now, since I have to get back to my work...
My daughter has been pushing a mouse around since she was 2, and here are the top hits in our house...
There were some decent kid-appropriate cartoons in the wired.com/animation section, which was a nice break from the DisneyWarner machine. They are gone, which is sad, since they still have that three-legged dog called Webmonkey limping around.
Goof ball is a shareware, non-violent, dexterity building game, and it teaches some simple rules about gravity and colliding spheres that are probably good to have ingrained at a young age. It's actually a set of 6-8 ball games, so there's a lot to learn, ever for a grown up kid.
I found that Mame is an excellent source, since a lot of the games are easy, non-violent, non-indoctrinating into the DisneyWarner ad machine, and, uh, free.
That being said, my kids also go to a couple games on the Disney.crap site, though only under strict supervision, and only to a fraction of the offerings. I try to minimize their exposure to it, but some of the games/puzzles/activities are ok.
Shockwave games are usually better, but you have to sort of pre-screen the pages to make sure you have all of the inappropriate ad servers blocked.
Outside of games, NASA has an excellent kids' section, with models to build, pictures, projects, etc.
Zoo and aquarium sites are ok too, plenty of educational material with enough pictures to keep them entertained.
My kids (6 1/2 year old boy and 4 year old girl) both really enjoy pbskids.org. There are games there for each of the pbskids cartoons. My son especially liked CyberChase, as there is usually a math lesson in the cartoon. He loves numbers.
Maybe he just wants more attention from his dad. You said you've been spending a lot of time on the computer lately so maybe he's just showing interest so that you give him more attention.
Besides, if you recall, the first quarter of the book will DEFINITELY make you laugh anytime someone says "In a Jiffy". Heh heh.
:) (I'm not saying that to linux kernel coders and people taking Operating Systems in college. You guys should already know it :)
Look it up.
" What luck for rulers that men do not think" - Adolf Hitler
Try teaching him how to use Tux Paint (free download at: http://www.newbreedsoftware.com/tuxpaint/), an open source (free) drawing software designed specifically for children. Personally, I find using drawing software the best way to learn computer -- for both children and adults. You learn how to use the interfaces, how to be creative, how to solve problems, and the children get to create a bunch of cute graphics for wallpaper.
I taught myself how to use GIMP, a more advanced open source graphics software, and have been using the graphics I created for my blog at: http://sunandfun.blogspot.com/
Sun and Fun
Spare the Rod, Spoil your early retirement.
Oh and if you got a cat or two freeloading about the house they actually can type, get them going on perl scripting. You would be suprized what cutting back on Catnip can do for productivity.
Sorry about the writing. Robot fingers, you know? Cliff Steele in DOOM PATROL #23
When I was a kid, my parents bought the family an Atari XE. A "console" system that was physically a keyboard and ran BASIC. You could type in a program from the command line and it would run. At the time, I was 4 or 5 I think, and I would just type stuff verbatim from the book. But it was an awful lot of fun. When the book has you do stuff that essentially just results in a flashing screen or a moving blob, sure, that's boring to adults or teens, but kids get a kick out of stuff like that. Or at least, I did.
When I was a teenager, I first got introduced to more creative programming with Pascal. It's a very easy language to learn, and you can do some fun stuff with it. After learning some basics, I had made a cheesy "dungeon" style game. I kept adding on to it as I learned more and it really became pretty neat.
So that's what I'd say. Sure, absorbing media from the internet is fun, but learning about what you can make computers do is probably more valuable. Having a basic understanding of computer guts teaches you things like saving time through batch processing or writing basic little scripts, but that's all worthwhile both for future jobs or just future fun. Don't jump into C, though -- encourage the easier, more basic languages and give your child some fun example programs, that give a visual output of some sort. Even things like, say, if you compile programs, have your child type in the appropriate things at the command line. Sure, they're just typing back what you tell them, but then having their screen fill with code, and a few minutes later having a program that they can play with is pretty neat. Have them "compile" frozen bubble, for instance ;D
Neopets is a good choice, my 7 year old loves it. Slews of little webgames that reward higher score with more neopoints to buy stuff. Good for hand eye coordination in alot of cases.
Shadus
I don't know if 6 is a little too young, but let him play some games on the computer. Oregon Trail, Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego, Civilization, Colonization, maybe Age of Empires. All of those (excluding AoE) were games that I played when I was younger, and I am certain that because of those games I have very good knowledge of ancient history (civilization), the pioneers (oregon trail), and geography / culture of the world (carmen sandiego).
It's easy! Just set him up a hotmail account. Soon enough he'll be hitting all the sites, buying and selling like a pro, and he'll even get an early start on the teachers thanks to all natural herbs. When it comes to school, you can never hold a child back!
----
Go canucks, habs, and sens!
or "everything else being the same", I'm all for kids learning about computers too. The only thing to keep in mind is that things taken to an extreme don't remain the same.
I have nothing against kids watching televion -- so long as they still play with their friends, get outside get excercise, read, build things, draw etc.. But it's pretty easy for them to spend every waking moment watching TV to the exclusion of these things. All things being equal, I'd rather they play computer games all the time than watch TV, and rather they read books all the time than play computer games all the time. But I don't even want them to read all the time either.
Maybe being computer geeks is in my kids future. But my rule is it shouldn't be the path of least resistance. They don't know what other things they might love unless they've experienced them. So, we limit the kids screen time. We're actually pretty generous, but they can't go over their limit unless they earn additional time by physical activity.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
don't let him get to bash.org for quite a few years yet, maybe show him Blender, and let him have fun creating stuff on his own. In a year or two give him an old computer and as a previous post said a linux distribution (gentoo is a little harsh for starters, even though I'm a big fan of it, but you can introduce him to Fedora first, then gentoo later). Have him discover what really goes on under the hood at his pace. Eventually he'll know a lot about it, probably more than you. And that's what's sad: the new generation is always going to catch on faster than us. But it's still important to give him the basics (I started on qbasic and win 3.11), so he'll learn from the ground up.
---- I am certain of only one thing : I know nothing else.
You can get started with programming in Basic, and can also play a ton of games.
P.S. Steve Tucker at AtariMax.com has a bunch of cool toys for the 8-bits, including flash carts.
What, me worry?
"If you give a mouse a cookie," for those of you who are familiar with the reference. Soon I was asking my dad how to run the games. Next I asked my dad how to install new games. One thing lead to another, and I started learning basic system administration. Later I started asking him how to program, and he sat down and taught me the fundamentals of BASIC. Later I took a class on C, and now I'm majoring in computer science, hoping to be a programmer or administrator.
Basically, it was something that I lead myself to, but my dad was there to support me the whole time. I probably would have gone nowhere without him, so I suggest you do the same; support your son or daughter when you can, or at least show them how they can further their knowledge and expand their interest. For me it was just about games, but then my interest was sparked other things like operating systems and programming languages.
As long as you keep things constructive and pay attention to your child's interests, they will basically develop on their own. Therefore, wait until you get questions, then answer them, but don't try to set your child up with some prepackaged dealie you're trying to cook up; just go with the flow, man.
Under linux, add to /etc/hosts:
127.0.0.1 slashdot.org
127.0.0.1 slashdot.com
127.0.0.1 slashdot.net
127.0.0.1 slashdot.edu
127.0.0.1 slashdot.tv
127.0.0.1 slashdot.xxx
127.0.0.1 slashdot.info
127.0.0.1 slashdot.cx
etc.
First, let me recommend Neopets. It's been getting fairly commercialized, but what I saw of it a few years ago looked good for younger children (and adults who act young. :P) Neopets will give you son a pet or pets to take care of as well as introducing him to an economy (through the market place) and allow him to play many fun games. The only thing to really watch out for is the merchandise. :P
As for programming experience, I do recommend it. I personally was exposed to BASIC when I was 2 and 8, and I just didn't get the connection between typing in weird "sentances" and the output. For an initial programming language, try Logo. It's cute and simple. Most of the basic "easy" programs consist of instructing the "turtle" what to draw through a series of simple commands such as the example below, which draws a sqaure. Of course, if he doesn't know about degrees in a circle yet, then the LEFT 90 may be above his head, but that shouldn't be too hard to help him with. (I don't remember what school taught me when...)
FORWARD 100
LEFT 90
FORWARD 100
LEFT 90
FORWARD 100
LEFT 90
FORWARD 100
The nice thing about Logo is that it's a graphic output that responds to your programs immediately. After he begins to understand Logo, he can move on to BASIC.
Frankly, even just having some random simple, yet "cool" programs will help him type better. Learning programming will help him get a better basic understanding of the computer, which will aid him in the long run compared to the next generation of luddites who will always be relative neophytes compared to him!
I was going to suggest a combination of a few fun games, (not necessarily "educational"), and a command line interface.
When my son was quite young he watched me play some old LucasArts games, among others, and one day he insisted on being allowed to play too. Most of the ones that he was interested in were old DOS games, so I showed him how to fire them up. At the age of four he learned how to boot straight to DOS and change directories until he found the executable for the game he wanted to play, which he was soon doing all by himself.
He was strongly motivated to learn how to work from a command prompt because he loved those games and was willing to do whatever it took to play them. A couple of years later when he was six we let him play around on a few kid-oriented web sites, (with supervision), so he got familair with how web browsers worked.
Just how familiar he was proved itself one day when he was watching me surf the web. This was before scroll mice were available, so I was clicking and dragging the scroll bar as I read down the page. I mentioned to him that you could also click the arrow button at the bottom of the scroll bar to get to the bottom of the page.
He put his hand on my mouse hand and looked me in the eye and said, "It's easier if you just hit the "Space" bar to do that, Daddy." (And I honestly didn't know that at the time - color me poorly informed.)
So yeah, put away the game consoles and get your kids hooked by letting them watch you play fun games on the computer, and then show them how to work a command line to get to them...
Got to keep the loonies on the path
My kids just loved the KidPix software. I'm not sure if it is still available, but it was surely a winner. Other than just line drawing and filling, it had stamps, patterns, coloring templates (and make your own templates) and even animation. As they got older, they switched to more sophisticated programs and now adobe illustrator, photoshop and proCreate and similar design/art tools are their favorites. The "read aloud" type books were ok - once or twice. They quickly lost their novelty. Some of the math-oriented games (I think from the Learning Company) were also a hit. My youngest, now 11, loves to make lego movies. there are a couple of ways to do this. He likes the old-fashioned "claymation" approach where he moves lego pieces according to a script, along with other stuff (like a piece of chicken, silly putting, I've seen it all), takes a few frames on the video cam, and then when he's ready to edit he and I use iMovie to make the final versions. He's almost able to handle the iMovie part on his own. Generally I'd say the most successful introductory items for my kids have been those that are highly interactive (yet sensitive to different skill levels), allow them to exercise creativity, and have "analogs" in the grown up world ("I want to use your software!") Regarding web surfing, there is a lot of interesting stuff out there. Lego and NASA sites were good suggestions. But be careful to screen and consider using a tool like Norton Parental Control to block some web sites. There are some out there that *look* like they are for kids but quickly lead you to porno sites.
PE will not teach kids how to run, how to exercise or anything except this:
Jocks are "naturally gifted" at being thugs and winning at sports, but geeks are "naturally gifted" at things that require two braincells or more actually firing electrical impulses at each other.
Get what I'm saying?
If you want them exercising, teach them properly. Teach them to avoid junk food and to use "treats" in the right amounts. Otherwise they'll eventually get lazy and become fat. Later they'll say that they were "naturally prone" to becoming fat...
That being said, a bit off topic, here's my other on topic material.
Get your kids to THINK. Exercise is good, but make sure they get to think... and yes, TV is out. I'm considering disconnecting the TV altogether once I move again. Not because it costs 60 bucks a month (that's a reason too) but because other than PBS, a few good friday shows on scifi and discovery/history/learning channels, everything else is tripe).
I think TV is a brainwashing medium, and given the options, I'd sooner have my kids join the local Linux User Group or Slashdot meetup than have them vegetating in front of a TV.
" What luck for rulers that men do not think" - Adolf Hitler
Start him on Dr. Scheme http://www.drscheme.com/ as a calculator, and gradually teach him to write functions, evaluate lists. The mere incentive of having the computer doing his homework as soon as he builds the abstract toolkitshe needs will have him writing simple functional programming libraries in weeks.
Oh, and he won't have been spoiled by GOTOs.
I started fiddling in basic at the age of 6/7. I was just left to my own devices with some 'my first basic' book and basic open and hacked away till I could work out stuff. I think it taught me a lot.
When he was two, I took an old iMac G3 we had and set it up with a couple of preschooler games. He grasped the mouse idea very quickly, and now at 3 1/4, he's actually pretty proficient with his Mac. I've set him up with the Simple Finder in Mac OS X 10.3, and I made .dmg files from all the games that require the CD to be inserted - and then set them up to auto-mount. I covered the CD slot with a shield of duct tape, since he can't always resist the impulse to put stuff in there (and disassembling the iMac G3 is a pain). Besides that, I set up his Applications folder with only the apps we want him to have access to.
The whole thing is sitting on a table in his playroom - when he feels like using it he knows how to turn it on, and when he's done he knows how to put the iMac back to sleep.
Then again, he also knows how to operate our TiVo, too.
Seriously, though, depending on the age of a child there's a lot of different ways to go about this. I already had the Mac available - otherwise, I could have hooked up a PC or something. We don't give him any web access yet, of course - not much point to that when you can't even really read yet. But overall he's a surprisingly skilled user for his age and I figure he'll kick me out of my job by the time he can drive. That gives me 13 more years, though, so I'll make the best of it while I can!
One other related thing I've noted is that the quality of preschooler software is vastly improved from what it used to be. Requiring the CD to be present, though, is pretty stupid - as good at technology as some kids can be I have yet to see any who know how to take care of either a CD or a DVD. I rip and copy all his DVDs and just run off another dupe when he ruins the first dupe.
-- Josh Turiel
"2. Do not eat iPod Shuffle."
Whatever you decide to introduce kids to, let the learn and explore for themself. Sure, introduce them to things, but don't tell them what to do, let them figure that out themselves, kids have an incredible capacity for learning, and using their naturally high curiosity to drive this, is one of the most satisfying ways to watch a child learn (and also satisfying for the child).
.sigs are for losers
My best friends' child knew how to start up Internet Explorer, go to the History, load her favorite Flash games site, and navigate to the game she wanted to play before she even knew how to READ. Why haven't you made the computer a part of the child's life from day one? Are you afraid he's going to "break" it? Sheesh!
Okay, so maybe your kid hasn't been interested in using the thing. But what sort of excuse is that? Most kids aren't too interested in learning how to dress themselves for school, but this skill isn't optional. Age 6?! I'm stunned.
Come on man, be real - what motivated you when you were six or seven?
Pr0n, and plenty of it. If the kid wanted to watch Disney he would go pop in his favorite tape / DVD.
Pr0n is why VHS dominated Beta. In fact it is why VCR's made it into every home on the planet in the first place.
Pr0n is why the Internet took off as fast as it did.
Pr0n drove the first profitable aspect of the web.
You want your kid to learn how to navigate the file system, throw some Pr0n on there - and hide the really good stuff in some hard to find places.
Glonoinha the MebiByte Slayer
[url=http://squeak.org]Squeak[/url] is designed to teach programming. Squeak is an open, highly-portable Smalltalk-80 implementation whose virtual machine is written entirely in Smalltalk
[url=http://squeakland.org]Squeakland[/url] is its community site.
Killing someone in cold blood should never be something a normal person is acustomed to, but unfortunately in American society, that's the way it is. On the other hand, the natural workings of the human body are things to shame children into never discussing or thinking about except in private.
Europe has it right -- no violence, and more sex.
Give her a command line, a compiler, some basic instructions on how to program, and teach her how to find out more information herself... worked for me at that age (course back then I was on CP/M and using compas (a Pascal compiler)... I expect it's probably easier with a real OS).
Back in the '80s, my dad would disparage my interest in computers, which were basically bad video games back then. Anything that looked like a toy couldn't possibly be of use in the future. Yeah, he was wrong and clueless, but I'm not going to make the same mistake my dad did. And that mistake is thinking that the facts and situation of this culture today will be applicable twenty years from now.
You have to stop thinking, "if I can get my kid to be an engineer, or doctor, or computer/electronics whiz, he will have a financially prosperous future.". Its just not true.
It was a great time to be into computers pre-2K. It was an open field. You could start up your own company with a useful app, become filthy rich, and die an alcoholic. Those days are gone. Even if you have a groundbreaking idea, you'll need major financing to make it happen, and the richer guys will just steal it from you if you haven't covered all bases. That is not what ubergeek training prepares your kid to face.
Training your child to be the penultimate ubergeek only trains him to be a technical cog in the future. Salaried men are not wildly sucessful or significant people. In the future, they will be competing with some form of exploited foreigner for the same crappy job.
That's why CS enrollment is dropping like a rock. Everyone with eyes can see that there is no goldrush in the computer field. Why put yourself $20-40K in hock to be treated like a lowly dork who should volunteer to work 60hr weeks?
He's unlikely to get a job as an engineer, or computer programmer. Asia will own all the manufacturing, and Sony won't hire him. Unless you can invest advanced education into your child, he won't have the academic background of the lowliest asian drudge out of high school. And no, getting an A in "Intelligent Design" will not help change their minds.
If you really cared, you'd chuck that SUV, avoid buying at Walmart, start making politicians' life hell, repeal NAFTA/CAFTA, put tax dollars into education rather than tax cuts, and agitate like hell to get out of Iraq and shrink our military spending, so that money can be put into our infrastructure and science research. (Like it was in the early '90s.) That way, twenty years from now, there would be a healthy economic base to find a job which can pay off a house mortgage.
Why would you think your child is getting any useful training from using computers now??? Computers and computing will be almost unrecognizable in twenty years. But go ahead and teach him how to program in COBOL.
No, don't go looking for ways to teach your kid to program, or use the Internet, or play computer games (unless you want your kid to be a grunt in the Middle East twenty years from now). Get your kid interested in READING, and more important, THINKING. Teach him how to quickly get the answers to everything by himself. And if you can hook him into liking math, you're way ahead of the game.
Sure, let him knock himself out on the IBM PC. Childhood toys are irrelevant to grownups, and the PC will be a cherished toy 20 years from now. But get your head screwed on straight. Its not about making your kid the best ubergeek he can be.
There is no America. There is no democracy. There is only IBM and AT&T and DuPont, Dow, General Electric, and Exxon
Synthesizers.
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
PE will not teach kids how to run, how to exercise or anything except this:
You must have gone to a suck-a** school.
When we were in grammar school, they taught us fun things like kickball, dodgeball, softball, basketball, and generally got us moving. Pretty much the only excersize I got at all.
In junior & senior high school, it got harder, but so what? Being a pudgy geek, it emotionally hurt, but now I'm glad they pushed me to do things I'd have never done on my own. Of course, they were Good People, and not sadistic assholes...
"I don't know, therefore Aliens" Wafflebox1
Wow someone sounds bitter. Computer skills will be a necessity even for scientist type jobs. Heck many researchers write their own test software to run simulations sometimes. Teaching your kids those skills will give him an edge. Computer skills cross boundaries. Knowing how to program doesn't mean you can only use that information working for a software company. It also teaches valuable thinking skills. Knowing how to research on the web is useful anywhere.
By all means the ability to think and read and discover things out by himself is of the most importance. But that doesn't mean avoiding computers. Not even slightly. He'll need those skills later you can guarantee it.
If you see spelling or grammatical errors don't blame me. I tried to preview but IE here at work borked the CSS
quit being a prynical cick. Knoppix4kids at http://www.osef.org/ live disk has loads of programs for the education of the young.My daughter,8 has been running it since 6.She learned to type with tuxtype.Sharpens her math skills with tuxmath and the list goes on. If the skills are necessary they will occur from circumstance and resource.If not they won't.provide the resource for the upcoming circumstances and give yourself the good parent award.Be present to answer questions and create curiosity. Don't present yourself as cynical lest your child become a prick too.
*Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
You should be able to pickup a spectrum or BBC or C64 quite cheaply, my younger brothers and sisters got a huge amount just typing in code listings and running them.
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
Really? I was athletic in high school, but not all THAT athletic... here's what I meant by the above... if with my brother's help (he really ought to be a physical trainer, he's awesome) I got my lung capacity to allow me to run 2 miles straight without dropping in only ONE freaking month, then something is AWFULLY wrong with PE in schools. They aren't trying to teach kids to stay in shape, they're just wasting everyone's time with a little physical activity but no real PHYSICAL EDUCATION.
For comparison, I could never run more than half a mile before needing to walk for a bit and catch my breath... I thought it was genetic until this last year with my bro's help, I proved to myself it was lack of EDUCATION about exercise that made me think I was incapable of running a straight mile without running out of breath. (Granted it took work on my part too... but the point is, I had previously thought it to be the domain of pure sports jocks who run all day and drink power drinks and the like.)
" What luck for rulers that men do not think" - Adolf Hitler
Really?
Really. Of course, it was an expensive prep school, back when parents expected more for their money than a fancy diploma and a high GPA.
"I don't know, therefore Aliens" Wafflebox1
1) If the kid was meant to program, he's gonna program. He doesn't need an adult to muck up his development with his '70-'90's era thinking.
2) Getting a kid to use a computer at the age of three is the same kind of retarded thinking that computers are critical to primary school education. That's idiotic. Reading, writing, arithmetic, science; that's critical. But no, lets lose those textbooks and teachers so we can have an up to date computer lab, along with salaried sysadmin, and chuck that equipment two years later.
3) I never said AVOID computers! I said don't stuff it down the 5 year olds' throat! Its pointless! Technofetish is not education or knowlege. Its as useful as trying to make your kid the next Bobby Fischer.
There is no America. There is no democracy. There is only IBM and AT&T and DuPont, Dow, General Electric, and Exxon
That's about the same age my younger son Jonatan started using the computer intensively. The older one (Daniel) started a bit later (about 4 1/2). But we had a laptop with only a touchpad back then so it was more difficult for him. Last year the children's demand for the computer became so high that I set them up with their own computers (photo of their room, that my wife would never have allowed me to publish if she could prevent it...).
Whatever they play, on the computer or not on the computer, the most important thing is that it should be a tool to aid their creativity, not to limit it. In "Hardware toys" it means things like Lego basic constrution sets (and other manufacturers. Both quality and quantity are mportant factors here: lack of each limits the child's creativity).
With Daniel we started with some cheap commercial games from Office Depot clearance. I don't think it's the right way. These quite limit the child to following instructions.
With Jonatan, we didn't make the effort to look for things to buy. He's a second child... So it was more like finding whatever we have that can occupy him so he doesn't bother us, and it worked better. M$ Paint turned out to be really great for him. It was simple enough to use, and he was very creative with it. Then he discovered Google: he uses Google images to look for pictures, then he cpopies and pastes them into his own works (He got a bit addicted to Google, and when we went on a 3 weeks vacation and he didn't have acess to the computer he was drawing pictures of the Google logo with his crayons... A few months ago when he wanted to find something his granfather told him it cannot be found on Google. So he said to his Grandpa: "Grandpa, anything can be found on Google if you know how to look for it!". Even searching Google requires creativity).
Another good piece of Children's software that encourages creativity is Drape (Drawing Programming Environment). It is a sort of programming environment similar to to Logo in some respect, but not exactly the same. One advantage is that it allows for very easy mouse interaction, so a child can create things that "work" quite easily (i.e., with just a bit of adult intervention). Form the same source, Game Maker is more suitable for older children. It is a programming environment to create games, either by using drag and drop or a builtin programming language. I've seen nice cooperation between the younger and older brother here: the young one chooses the objects and graphics, and drwas the levels of the games. The older one completes the game by adding the more abstract parts: actions and interactions. Logo is of course a very good thing for children. For the smaller ones the online r-logo is very easy and fun to use. For more serious Logo programming MSWlogo is a much more powerful implementation (including 3-dimensionality and multi-tasking). There's no need to "choose one". My son Daniel first thinks of an idea he wants to implement, then chooses the most appropriate tool, just like a programmer choosing the most appropriate programming languge for the job (he has several flavors of Logo and choses the one that has what he needs for a project. He also uses Visual Basic that he learned at school).
What else?
For several months my kids were addicted to Enigma. It's "just a game", but actually it involved loads of creativity in solving an entirely different puzzle in each level, and has the right balance between sing the brain and coordinating mo
I think it's a great idea, but get him his own computer. I my son use my computer and he found my porn folder.
I don't know what you're thinking. These guys want you to teach him to become a code monkey. You're better off teaching him chinese so he can easily submit to our new chinese overlords.
Seriously, though, most americans don't encourage their kids to learn anything other than english until they're what? 14? 16? At that point it's a lot harder for a kid to learn their first language. Get them started now, teach them some of the basics, maybe get him a nanny or babysitter that speaks another language, and get her to talk to him in that. Let him try to repeat some of the sounds and learn some basics.
Now, getting back on topic, I learned DOS from my dad when I was a little kid. I learned to type at the same time as I was learning to write, and I still thank him for that. He gave me tutorial programs on 5 1/4" diskette, and encouraged me how to use commands to FIND things I was looking for (like dir/p/s). Then he got me into things like QBASIC and editing the settings for the menuing program he used. That gave me all the foundations for my future, so whenever I wanted to learn a new language all I had to learn was the grammar and vocabulary. This is where it ties into foreign languages, because it's really the same thing. You learn how to learn new languages from learning them. Learning your first [second] language is the hardest because you've never really done it before. It just gets easier after that as long as you don't start confusing the two systems. Get him into REALLY basic stuff like changing settings for programs, give him an idea of the foundation of the GUI he's working on. Introduce him to some real basic command line stuff. Teach him basic logic and troubleshooting skills, and try to do it that he finds interesting.
IMO, the main mistake people make with their kids is thinking they're stupid because they don't have a lot of knowledge. Kids can be incredibly smart if you stop telling them things are magic and just explain them. When you're loading drivers on, explain it in a simple way. When a window comes up asking to update your antivirus, explain what that is. If your sound card goes out, take some time to explain that. Just get some of the basic concepts in his head and try to get him into somewhat normal software. Maybe teach him how to write a note to his mother in openoffice. Create a christmas card in a cardmaker program. Do things that'll make him think and be a bit creative. Otherwise you're just giving him a home arcade system.
Just my two cents, repeated about 500 times in various ways.
SWM seeks new sig for a brief fling
Now that's a nice setup for the kids! That's really aweseom.
Another thing to mention, is not to just not limit them, but be involved with what they do (general parental rule seems skipped in most households today).
"I cannot think of any need in childhood as strong as the need for a father's protection." -- Sigmund Freud
Forget all the crappy kids sites, you will want to teach your kid that a computer is not (only) a entertainment machine. Browse for animals, trains, cars and try to inspire your kid to want to learn more, by provding him with the skills he needs to be an efficient "information hunter" of the 21th century..
For younger kids, check out the BBC Teletubbies web site http://www.bbc.co.uk/cbeebies/teletubbies/funandga mes/index.shtml
There are a lot of cool but simple games there, and they are on a level that does not really require reading skills nor the capability to understand English. So our soon-to-be-5-year-old daughter has surfed that site a lot after she got the idea of a mouse two years ago or so.
Other favourites for our kid have been SimTunes and Bille & Trille games from Savannah in Denmark http://www.savannahkids.net/. If you're from Scandinavia, check them out, they're great!
Try gcompris - it's in most UNIX distros. It pulls down python and most of GNOME, but it's otherwise good. My son enjoyed playing with it starting when he was four, and he got used to having to login.
On Windows, most of the applications for kids are a pain to support, because they all use various versions of QuickTime, and most of the publishers are out of business. JumpStart has worked pretty well, though.
Jocks are "naturally gifted" at being thugs and winning at sports, but geeks are "naturally gifted" at things that require two braincells or more actually firing electrical impulses at each other.
No, I have to disagree.
Jocks are people who happen to be aware of the natural physical potential that nearly every human being is born with, and in whom that potential hasn't been squandered.
Geek are people who happen to be aware of the natural mental potential that nearly every human being is born with, and in whom that potential hasn't been squandered.
In the state of nature, the weak and stupid perish.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
May I ask what American society you are talking about? Each and every place you go to in the US is unique, and never have I met anyone who is accustomed to that. Some are more accustomed to it, living in violent areas, but it is just as bad each time. Simply saying American this or American that almost always marks a fallacy. People don't seem to fully understand that in a free country, you have the freedom to be completely individual, not a sheep or a borg of society.
I am Spartacus
And then there are those who squander both, and those who squander neither... my point exactly :)
I said that the lesson most kids learn when going to PE in school is that they are made painfully aware of a falsehood that takes years and effort to transcend.
" What luck for rulers that men do not think" - Adolf Hitler
My 6 year old daugther really likes GCompris.
... ... ... ... ...
http://www.ofset.org/gcompris/
From their site:
GCompris is an educational software which proposes miscellaneous activities to kids from 2 to 10
Some activities are game oriented, but always educational. You will find activities in the following topics:
* computer discovery: keyboard, mouse, different mouse gesture,
* algebra: table memory, enumeration, double entry table, mirror image,
* science: the canal lock, the water cycle, the submarine,
* geography: place the country on the map
* games: chess, memory,
* reading: reading practice
* other: learn to tell time, puzzle of famous paintings, vector drawing,
I was lucky enough to have a computer growing up (dad was in air force, was computer programmer), and the things that interested me most were the painting programs. I begged and pleaded and finally got my own computer when I was a teenager - I learned well from my mistakes (like, don't type in "del *.*" at the C:\ prompt) and my interests went on from there. Programs nowadays are much more complex and interesting - a friend's child was playing with a painting program that made all sorts of interesting sounds when the tools were used. My best piece of advice is find out what your kid likes and find things that would appeal to them.
I'd start him off with a linux or make him learn the dos window if he can. I learned it when I was around 4-5. It's not hard for basic commands and it allows me to drop into Dos shells in any Windows XP machine with out a second thought.
If you want to make it easier. Best thing to do is give him a good amount of learning games, even old Dos ones such as Super Solvers and such, and let them enjoy it. The typing games definatly will help no matter WHAT your kid wants to do. And games like Super Solvers definatly are enjoyable (They are my fondest memories of old Dos games)
Best thing to do is try a game yourself. If these games are fun but below your skill level, your kid will likely love them. Basically the best games I've played in any catagory especially educational software are fun games that teach, and can be enjoyed by anyone.
Good luck with your kid though but remember that computer games are good, but there's other areas they should use too, spending 1 hour with your son or daughter a night is probably more important then if he was able to spend 8 hours a day learning on a computer.
And of course remember that some games are just fun, and that's ok, not everything they do should be educational but it's better if there is a good percentage that they are learning something from.
I grew up in a fairly computer savvy family (my father was a sometimes programmer) but it wasn't until I was about 9 or 10 that AOL and Internet use became a totally unavoidable comsumer product and it was brought into our house. Up until then I spent a lot of time on the computer doing stuff which, with all due respect to the internet, was far more productive than what I did in the years after we got hooked up. It may seem blase to you, but writing stories and then picking different fonts and colors in a word processor, drawing pictures in a basic graphic editor, and (the best) learning BASIC programming were extremely exciting when I was that age. Obviously I don't propose cutting your kid off from the internet and keeping him totally inept until an arbitrary age, but I do believe that the 'advertisement qua entertainment' websites that big companies set up for kids are essentially a huge waste of time. They want your kids to play with the flashy toy, but he'll probably have more fun and be better off playing make believe with the box.
I'm in the process of turning my 6 year old brother into a geek... I guess it's kinda natural for him- he already prefers Linux, though that may have something to do with Tux... Anyway, for his birthday, I'm giving him an older computer. I think that it's better for kids to learn HTML/xhtml, some basic control of a commandline as well as playing some games. Try giving your kid a pre-school type typing tutor that also teaches some reading skills. Don't teach ... Internet access shouldn't be restricted too much, but try to keep your daughter/son off mindless sites. Get rid of Internet Explorer, for everyone's sanity. My brother can use Opera with no problems (neopets and the Wiggles and stuff like that...)
Get him off the internet or get a filter, one click could mean a whole lot of explaining! Offline educational games are great, and when he gets a little older, internet time is a great reward for good grades. (a C put mine on a one hour of extra homework=one hour of game play) My son built his first system at 11, in hindsight I would have waited a bit for that, but it was a great project for us to work on together. Now I am ready to lock the side of his case.