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The Return of Saturn's Spokes

CheshireCatCO writes "After more than a year in orbit around Saturn, the Cassini spacecraft has finally spotted 'spokes' in the rings. Spokes, large radial structures in the rings, where seen by the Voyager spacecraft and have remained difficult to fully explain. The reappearce of the spokes comes about two years earlier than many models predicted."

125 comments

  1. Footfall by rossdee · · Score: 1, Offtopic

    Is it the Fithp?

    1. Re:Footfall by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      I'm just wondering where my FUCKING Roland story is?

    2. Re:Footfall by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Offtopic? Havent any of you mods read the Niven/Pournelle novel?

    3. Re:Footfall by Thuktun · · Score: 1

      "Attack of the Inconsistent Slashdot Moderators", coming soon to a funny post near you!

    4. Re:Footfall by UdoKeir · · Score: 1

      Eh, they just aren't very well read.

  2. Bike Wheelz by Gertlex · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Now if someone could make me some bike wheels with rings and spokes like that (minus the gas though).

  3. What about Scientists? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Yeah, but what do models know? A lot of them don't even have degrees.

    1. Re:What about Scientists? by Daktaklakpak · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      that's not true. some of them have their M.S. degree--Master of Stupidity. Har har har, ok that was bad, I know.

    2. Re:What about Scientists? by airherbe · · Score: 5, Funny

      Some of them have heavenly bodies.

  4. Upon closer examination by Prophetic_Truth · · Score: 5, Funny

    Astronomers have noticed a giant baseball card embedded in the spokes to make saturn feel like its a real motorcycle.

    --
    time is a perception of a being's consciousness
    time is your 6th sense, the wierd ones are 7+
    1. Re:Upon closer examination by PunkOfLinux · · Score: 1

      Vrrrrooooooooooooooom! I think that these spokes spin a bit faster thought

  5. Spokes? by __aaydvd4604 · · Score: 4, Funny

    Clearly the Saturnians are using space elevators to reach the rings... duh!

    1. Re:Spokes? by dotwaffle · · Score: 1

      Look this way please sir...
      (takes out pen shaped flash bulb)
      (flash of light)
      What you saw weren't spokes in the rings of Saturn, they were shadows cast by interstellar monkey spunk.
      Nice meeting you...

  6. Saturn's Spokes Explained by Blue-Footed+Boobie · · Score: 4, Funny
    You see, there is a photo dimetric charge built up with the gaseous core surrounding the ferrite sphere that is Saturn's core. Of course, as wel all know, this induces a strong para-helic cohesive bond between the ferro-flux dense matter which is on a cyclic Herbrunger-Feltz Path throughout the rings.

    It is really quite simple.

    --
    DAMN YOU OCTODOG! DAMN YOU TO HELL!
    1. Re:Saturn's Spokes Explained by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      You say that like we're all a bunch of idiots.

      -Anonymous Coward

    2. Re:Saturn's Spokes Explained by NicKakaWoodstocK · · Score: 1

      I disagree. I understood that perfectly well. Except for the bit about the cyclic Herbrunger-Feltz Path. Can you explain that again?

      --
      "Due to funding cuts, the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off"
    3. Re:Saturn's Spokes Explained by adyus · · Score: 0


      Could you share the link to the random astronomical buzzword generator you've been using? I have a thesis to write...

    4. Re:Saturn's Spokes Explained by Jesus_666 · · Score: 1

      If what you say about the photo dimetric charge is true I'll need to immediately change the polarization of my main deflector or the entire ship will be flooded with bogon radiation... Better do a level three chack of the scanners too, in case the isonuclear backscatter has affected the tachyon relays.

      --
      USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
  7. Duh? by Pig+Hogger · · Score: 1

    Maybe it's the models that are two years late...

  8. Space.com lacking an editor? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful
    Saturn's odd ring spokes were photographed during NASA's Voyager mission, which swung passed the planet in the 1980s, and later observed by astronomers using the Hubble Space Telescope.

    What, they don't have an editor? Let's try again:

    Saturn's odd ring spokes were photographed during NASA's Voyager mission in the 1980s, and were later observed by astronomers using the Hubble Space Telescope.
    1. Re:Space.com lacking an editor? by VoidWraith · · Score: 2, Interesting
      The actual text is in a style I see very often in journalism, even when it is generally edited well. Personally, I think the best way to write it would be:

      Saturn's odd ring spokes were photographed during NASA's Voyager mission, which swung passed the planet in the 1980s, and were later observed by astronomers using the Hubble Space Telescope.
    2. Re:Space.com lacking an editor? by isometrick · · Score: 1

      s/passed/past/

    3. Re:Space.com lacking an editor? by Krach42 · · Score: 1

      What? Are you suggesting that the Voyager wasn't observed by Hubble?

      --

      I am unamerican, and proud of it!
    4. Re:Space.com lacking an editor? by kcarlin · · Score: 0

      What he sed.

      --
      Free Adam Smith! (Or best offer.)
    5. Re:Space.com lacking an editor? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The punctuation doesn't suggest that at all, if you look closely. The complaint is about the awkward construction, not the interpretation.

    6. Re:Space.com lacking an editor? by Krach42 · · Score: 1

      I'm not suggesting that it's from the punctuation. I'm refering to the ambiguity that it doesn't indicate well WHAT was observed by Hubble.

      If you attach it into the dependent clause, then it refers to the Voyager Spacecraft.

      If you bring it out from the dependent clause, then it refers to the spokes of Saturn.

      --

      I am unamerican, and proud of it!
  9. stupid biatch by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    the klingons are hiding behind the saturn.

    1. Re:stupid biatch by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      nah, the klingons are hiding on uranus, that's what you get for not using TP

  10. Duh! by jav1231 · · Score: 4, Funny

    Everyone knows that the spokes keep the rings equidistant from the planet while providing lateral stability! Hello!

  11. Impact debris? by williwilli · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Isn't the most obvious reason that an asteroid or meteoroid or something similar simply hit the rings and broke apart? Is there some reason why this isn't likely?

    1. Re:Impact debris? by Bad+D.N.A. · · Score: 1

      um... because there is nothing to break...

      --
      "Truth is much too complicated to allow anything but approximations"
    2. Re:Impact debris? by Bazzalisk · · Score: 1

      That's pretty much like sugesting that something hit a raindbow and shattered against it - or a cloud. The rings are so diffuse that there realy isn't anything to hit except for a load of dust.

      --
      James P. Barrett
    3. Re:Impact debris? by CheshireCatCO · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Acutally, small impacts are believed to be involved. But how do you levitate the dust that they kick up over the ring plane?

    4. Re:Impact debris? by Malor · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The rings aren't very solid; most of the material is believed to be ice crystals that are, at most, a few meters in diameter. And despite their apparent solidity from here, they're an awful lot of empty space.

      Chances are pretty good that an asteroid would just sail right through the rings unimpeded. If it did hit something, it wouldn't be stopped. The inertia of the (small) body it hit would almost certainly be completely overcome by the incoming inertia of the asteroid. If it hit hard enough to break the asteroid apart, the result might look something like a shotgun blast, with a spray of asteroid chunks and a tiny bit of ring material continuing roughly along the same path the asteroid had been following. The 'hole' in the rings would almost certainly be filled within hours or days.

      If the asteroid happened to be slow enough to be captured into orbit, and happened to be on the same plane as the rings, it could potentially join the ring system. Over time, it might be torn apart by tidal forces into small chunks and blend in with the rest of the material.

      No matter what, it wouldn't just hit them and explode in place. The rings aren't nearly solid enough for that. It'd be like trying to stop a bullet with a sheet of Saran Wrap, perhaps with rice stuck to it.

    5. Re:Impact debris? by steelfood · · Score: 1

      This is unlikely.

      A large object flying towards Saturn and cutting through the rings might cause this kind of pattern, but the large object wouldn't necessarily break apart. It'd just cause a noticeable displacement in the ring material. It'd probably look like a large hole or gap. But that doesn't account for the rings actually getting brighter at these points, which is probably due to an increase in matter. A small object probably wouldn't cause anything noticeable.

      Something with a large gravitational pull flying increasingly close to the rings without actually passing through the rings might do this too. But then, we should be able to see such objects, as they'd have to be pretty big (like a moon perhaps), and their shadow against the rings would likely be visible, as well as their impact into Saturn. And the effect on the rings wouldn't end out of nowhere. It might not be noticeable until the gravitational pull of the object became strong enough, but since things fly in elliptical orbits, the streak would cut across the rest of the rings.

      --
      "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
    6. Re:Impact debris? by CheshireCatCO · · Score: 2, Informative

      No.
      Some of the rings are diffuse and dusty.
      The A and B rings of Saturn, however, are thick and filled with larger (figure meter-sized) particles. A typical photon doesn't make it through these rings without meeting a particle somewhere, so a meteroid would more likely than not hit something solid.

    7. Re:Impact debris? by CheshireCatCO · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The spokes aren't a disturbance in the ring material itself. They can't be: the maintain their radial orientation over time. The parts of the rings that are closer to Saturn orbit more rapidly and so the spokes would shear out if they were part of the rings proper.

      In reality, they spokes hover over the rings, probably levitated electrostatically. They hold their orientation because they are tied to the magnetic field of Saturn.

    8. Re:Impact debris? by Thing+1 · · Score: 1
      No, the most likely reason is we are now to fear the flishithy thuktun.

      I just re-read Footfall by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle. Excellent literature.

      --
      I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
    9. Re:Impact debris? by Creedo · · Score: 1


      It'd be like trying to stop a bullet with a sheet of Saran Wrap, perhaps with rice stuck to it.


      That is great sig material.

      --
      All that is necessary for the triumph of good is that evil men do nothing.
    10. Re:Impact debris? by PakProtector · · Score: 1

      Actually, I've just arrived early.

      --

      Edward@Tomato - /home/Edward/ man woman
      man: no entry for woman in the manual.
      "Qua!?"

    11. Re:Impact debris? by NetSettler · · Score: 1

      The rings aren't very solid; most of the material is believed to be ice crystals that are, at most, a few meters in diameter. And despite their apparent solidity from here, they're an awful lot of empty space.

      Is it in fact known that there's neither gaseous atmosphere nor fine dusty mist among the rings? If gas were emitted or dust kicked up from some member of the rings, would it necessarily float off? Or might it be held by the combined gravity or electrical charge of the local ring structure? (I'm not alleging that it is--I just don't know, so I figured I'd ask.)

      --

      Kent M Pitman
      Philosopher, Technologist, Writer

    12. Re:Impact debris? by CheshireCatCO · · Score: 1

      Actually, dust tends to fall in towards the planet over short timescales due to various forms of drag not felt by the larger particles. (Mostly associated with emission of thermal radiation or the magnetosphere.) Gas would tend to diffuse out the ring plane and probably escape or ionize and become part of the magnetosphere.

      To answer the first question, yeah, we know that there isn't a lot of dust in there. Recent measurements from Cassini show that there just isn't a lot of small stuff around.

    13. Re:Impact debris? by Thing+1 · · Score: 1

      Nice. (I consider myself a Protector, although I've yet to eat Tree-of-Life.)

      --
      I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
    14. Re:Impact debris? by PakProtector · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't do it. Too much intelligence is a Major Drag.

      You think Niven was just 'poo-poo'ing with that stuff about not having any free will when you're a Protector?

      --

      Edward@Tomato - /home/Edward/ man woman
      man: no entry for woman in the manual.
      "Qua!?"

    15. Re:Impact debris? by Thing+1 · · Score: 1
      Not at all. I've actually been thinking about this a lot lately, and came to the conclusion that "free will" just gives you the ability to choose a solution which is less optimal than the most optimal solution that you know about.

      Which can then be expressed in several ways. On the good, it gives you the ability to "play", to try out many different competing solutions to determine for yourself which is the most optimal, in a certain situation.

      On the bad, it means that a more rigorous decision-making structure may be more competitive than humans, in certain situations (like space exploration, where "playing" could leave you stranded).

      Personally, I'm very much in favor of "too much intelligence." I love that the Pak could see the outcome and act immediately; however, they were still too tribal. Once I achieve super-intelligence I'm leaving here. I'll fly out to another star and begin setting up a Dyson Sphere. It's partly play, since I've never done it before and will be learning as I go. But it's also vitally necessary, as by capturing the EM radiation from the star and saving it in batteries on the outside of the Dyson Sphere, and then rationing that energy, we can effectively increase the life of the universe; by doing this we increase the amount of time that it will take to achieve heat death, which is uniform temperature and pressure throughout the universe. (Life requires deltas in order to continue surviving, so the heat death will be the true death of all life, unless we find a way to manipulate sub-atomic particles and obtain energy from them, or suck it in from another universe or find a doorway to a younger universe.)

      But then, that's just me. I'm sure there are some for whom "more intelligence" would be "too much" because they'd end up being just as tribal as the Pak, and perhaps end up killing the entire race so that they'd have no "competition".

      Not sure I'd want Tree of Life, though. Nanotechnology seems like it'll provide all the benefits, but without the drawbacks (dying when I have no children, especially since I currently have none).

      Oh, and also, above where I say "I'm leaving here", with nanotechnology I'll be able to create avatars and send them to do my bidding, with full neural links between them and my "home base" (which will be a large quantity of thinking matter protected very well, and likely distributed as well among the planets, asteroids, and ultimately around other stars and galaxies). So even though "I" will leave to set up the Dyson Sphere, "I" will also stick around and perhaps run for office (we need fewer laws, and I think that's something that people would rally around).

      --
      I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
  12. The Electric Universe theories predicted this by Saven+Marek · · Score: 0

    This is yet another prediction come true by proponents of The Electric Universe a set of theories which explain many phenomena that are seen and should be seen better than the so called "real science". what happens when real science sends up probe after probe looking for info and then are surprised by the results, but then site like that have already predicted what would be seen and get it right time after time?

    They are often dismissed as crackpots because the theories fly in the face of convention but they get it right time and time again decades before 'real science' does.

    Makes you wonder.

    1. Re:The Electric Universe theories predicted this by EvilBastard · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Hang on...
      The (completely insane and already disproven multiple times) Electric Universe theory has only been talking about these rings since 2004.

      These spokes were first spotted in the '80's.

      Isn't this a bit like "I have a theory, this theory is that Orange Polkadotted Jet Propelled Chickens from the Pleides are currently touring the universe blowing up stars. The last star they visited was SN1987A, and sure enough observations back me up".

      If they predicted it before they hit Saturn, then maybe we'd pay attention. But seeing how they predicted it after it had already been observerd places you fairly in the OPJPC camp.

    2. Re:The Electric Universe theories predicted this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      There is another theory that the Flying Spaghetti Monster created Saturn's ring spokes.

    3. Re:The Electric Universe theories predicted this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What makes crackpot theories so attractive that people prefer them over genuine research?

      I mean, people out there believe that the hurricane Katrina was created directly through use of "scalar weaponry" or some such nonsense. Does it never occur to people that what they read on the internet isn't always true?

    4. Re:The Electric Universe theories predicted this by ScentCone · · Score: 2, Funny

      Does it never occur to people that what they read on the internet isn't always true?

      No, that is true that they never... don't not... dis-consider.... never mind. People are twits.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    5. Re:The Electric Universe theories predicted this by David+Gould · · Score: 2, Funny
      Does it never occur to people that what they read on the internet isn't always true?
      No, that is true that they never... don't not... dis-consider.... never mind. People are twits.

      I don't think you failed not to avoid being unclear.
      --
      David Gould
      main(i){putchar(340056100>>(i-1)*5&31|!!(i<6)<< 6)&&main(++i);}
    6. Re:The Electric Universe theories predicted this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I couldn't possibly fail to disagree with you any less.

    7. Re:The Electric Universe theories predicted this by Saven+Marek · · Score: 0

      When the things you call "crackpot theories" correctly predict what will happen in many astronomical situations where "genuine research" is continuously surprised at results they didn't expect then you have to wonder who is telling the truth.

      You have to consider that 'crackpot theories' are more genuine than mainstream hogwash that continually says "we did not expect that". well you did not expect it because you are wrong.

      You might think you will survive sitting on the surface of the sun, but if you sit on the surface of the sun and you die then that is not an unexpected result it just means you were WRONG IN THE FIRST PLACE.

      Who is getting it right in the first place? electric universe has the better track record here.

    8. Re:The Electric Universe theories predicted this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This coming from the guy who thinks the tsunami in 2004 was an act of God to wipe out some sinners and non believers, and to warn the rest of us. Fuck you.

    9. Re:The Electric Universe theories predicted this by Markus+Registrada · · Score: 2, Interesting
      The "completely insane and already disproven multiple times" Electric Universe theory isn't one, and so can't have been. That is, "electric universe" is an amalgam of a lot of different theories, by a lot of different people, smushed together. Some are utterly compelling, and should make the jokers at NASA blush at their own poor educations. Others are frankly nuts. Most are in between, but testable.

      It's adolescent rubbish that (as far as I have been able to discern from their writings) Earth used to orbit Saturn, or that Venus was calved off of Saturn in immediate prehistory. It's almost certain that within that same period there were terrifying Aurorae Australis, bright enough to be seen by day. It's unlikely that there's no fusion going on within the sun, but very possible that the sun's chromosphere is a plasma "double layer" that accelerates into the corona those particles that overcome its activation threshold, producing the corona's astonishing temperature.

      It's likely that galaxies are not organized around "billion-solar-mass black holes," and that quasars are no more distant or energetic than the nearby Seyfert galaxies they cluster about. It's visibly true that currents in the interstellar plasma self-organize into intertwining filaments and extended membranes that sometimes fluoresce, exactly like neon lights, to produce stunningly beautiful nebular displays.

      It's an easy bet that cosmologists' notions of "dark matter" and "dark energy" adding up to over 99 times as much stuff as the visible universe are fantasies ginned up to rescue failed hypotheses. It's a matter of public record that astrophysicists, as a rule, have only rudimentary training in the dynamics of the plasma that they admit fills all of space, but insist on calling "ionized gas".

      Whatever their failings, the Electric Universe people have the best astronomical picture gallery on the web.

    10. Re:The Electric Universe theories predicted this by qazsedcft · · Score: 3, Insightful

      When the things you call "crackpot theories" correctly predict what will happen in many astronomical situations where "genuine research" is continuously surprised at results they didn't expect then you have to wonder who is telling the truth.

      And when crapot theories fail to make correct predictions it's just an oversight that could be corrected if the mainstream scientists didn't block research funding for "alternative science" projects.

      Who is getting it right in the first place? electric universe has the better track record here.

      Um, no. The reason why theories like the electric universe are called crackpot science is because they correct only sometimes, and blatantly incorrect most of the time. The reason why mainstream science is, well mainstream, is because it is correct most of the time. Unfortunately, crackpots like to emphasize science's mispredictions and hide their own shorcommings under the rug.

    11. Re:The Electric Universe theories predicted this by CmdrGravy · · Score: 1

      "Who is getting it right in the first place? electric universe has the better track record here"

      Oh yes, the Electric Universe were certainly bang on in their predictions of what that probe which crashed into the comet would discover weren't they ?

      But hang on I just double checked and in fact they were totally wrong.

    12. Re:The Electric Universe theories predicted this by CheshireCatCO · · Score: 1

      'It's an easy bet that cosmologists' notions of "dark matter" and "dark energy" adding up to over 99 times as much stuff as the visible universe are fantasies ginned up to rescue failed hypotheses. It's a matter of public record that astrophysicists, as a rule, have only rudimentary training in the dynamics of the plasma that they admit fills all of space, but insist on calling "ionized gas".'\

      Sure it's an easy bet. That's because talk is cheap when you don't have to back it up. So here's my challenge: provide data to back up your claim. The cosmologists have provided ample data to support their arguments. (They've even convinced me, and I was dead-set against dark energy for quite a long time. But eventually the data was overwelming.)

      As for our training in plasma physics, most astrophysicists have multiple graduate level courses in the topic before we write our theses. Since a lot of us collaborate with plasma physics folks from the physics community, I'd like to think that we would have been called on any nonsense we were spouting.

      Incidentally, how are you accessing our student records in a way that you consider it "a matter of public record"? I'd consider that a violation of FERPA, myself.

      So what's YOUR plasma physics background that makes you able to causually dismiss what my collegues have spend careers researching?

    13. Re:The Electric Universe theories predicted this by CodeHog · · Score: 2, Insightful


      Whatever their failings, the Electric Universe people have the best astronomical picture gallery [thunderbolts.info] on the web.

      ummmm, that's arguable. Check out APOD.

      --
      Fat, drunk, and stupid is no way to go through life, son.
    14. Re:The Electric Universe theories predicted this by tabrnaker · · Score: 1

      fallacy of genus. Learn to think!

  13. See Cassini's path by latent_biologist · · Score: 5, Informative

    "Unlike Voyager or Hubble, Cassini is in a unique position to study ring spoke phenomena at Saturn."

    With Celestia, you can actually follow Cassini's path as it follows Saturn. It really puts the above statement in perspective (plus it makes u feel like an astronaut).

    1. Re:See Cassini's path by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, that's awfully nice...too bad it looks like shite.

    2. Re:See Cassini's path by linzeal · · Score: 1

      If you want to feel like an astronaut why not try to fly a spacecraft with orbiter?

    3. Re:See Cassini's path by emidln · · Score: 1

      Any idea if this works under Cedega or Wine?

    4. Re:See Cassini's path by linzeal · · Score: 1

      I have not tried. I only use linux on my laptop. At home windows xp pro does everything I need so far. When MS goes DRM with Vista I will switch completely though I will miss world of warcraft.

    5. Re:See Cassini's path by Gulthek · · Score: 1

      WoW plays fine on Mac OSX.

    6. Re:See Cassini's path by anethema · · Score: 1

      WoW works good in cedega.

      Here is a page with screens: http://transgaming.org/gamesdb/games/view.mhtml?ga me_id=3518

      And here is a wiki page talking about known issues etc: http://digital-conquest.ath.cx/wiki/index.php/Worl d_of_Warcraft

      It is also an officially supported game by cedega so you can expect help and stuff to get it going tip-top.

      --


      It's easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them.
  14. Saturn: Rollin' on dubz by Mancat · · Score: 1, Funny

    Saturn be representin' the second largest plizzy in the sizzolar system, yo.

    --
    hello dear sirs my name is jamesh i are india (bihar) can u guide me install red had linux 9?
    1. Re:Saturn: Rollin' on dubz by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We gottsa pimp dat shit out wif some spinnerz, be-atch!!

  15. Hmmm by Enfurno · · Score: 0

    I wonder where earth plays into this galactic tri-cycle. Hopefully not a pedal.

    --
    Need cheap, customized, and quality bandwidth or hosting on any business scale? Visit www.ENetpresence.com
    1. Re:Hmmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I do believe that the source of your humor probably originates from those spokes.

  16. Re:Hmm. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They are one weird phenomena and it was a joy to see them againespecially since we hadnt seen them yet and were eager to know why.

    He can say the same about naked women :P

    I suggest you reread the article. The "he" you quote is actually a she.

  17. Cause of the spokes? by macklin01 · · Score: 1

    The article mentioned models on the spokes, and spoke a bit on photoelectric effects, but didn't go into much detail to describe just what's going on. Does anybody have some better insight?

    Also, could any of these spokes be created by a large object cutting across the rings on the way to an impact with Saturn? (e.g., a meteor or small comet) I suppose that type of event would be too rare to explain the spokes that have been observed ... -- Paul

    --
    OpenSource.MathCancer.org: open source comp bio
    1. Re:Cause of the spokes? by CheshireCatCO · · Score: 4, Informative

      In a word, no.
      The spokes must be tied to the magnetic field of Saturn. This explains why the stay at the same magnetic longitude of the planet and why they don't wind up as the inner parts of the rings orbit the planet faster. So they're not disturbances in the ring particles themselves, since the ring particles are too massive to really feel the magnetic field.

      However, if you levitated dust over the rings, that would do the trick. The problem is how to levitate the dust. It turns out that you can develop a negative potential on the rings (I think it's negative... I forget, to be honest) which can repel the dust and cause it to hover. So under the right conditions, if dust were kicked up by a small collision in ther rings (say a meteroid collision), it can float over the rings and spread radially, making a spoke.

      Or so we think...

    2. Re:Cause of the spokes? by macklin01 · · Score: 1

      Thank you! Very intersting, and a helpful explanation, that. Much appreciated. -- Paul

      --
      OpenSource.MathCancer.org: open source comp bio
    3. Re:Cause of the spokes? by CheshireCatCO · · Score: 1

      Glad to help.

    4. Re:Cause of the spokes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have an explanation that I just made up on the couch. Someday someone who spent far too much time and money on an education will say the same thing, and get all the credit.

      The rings consist of a bunch of shit flying around Saturn in a big circles. Sometimes stuff bumps into other stuff. Usually, that just slightly perturbs the orbits, and you end up with concentric circular patterns. There's a *lot* of shit, though, so probabilistically, occasionally the usual bumps will have a more chaotic outcome, and a bunch of bits will go flying off radially, leaving trails as they smash their way out.

      It's really not fair that no-one ever gets a Noble prize for inspiring someone else to do years of research and lots of math and an elegant paper or two by simply spouting off online while lounging on the couch. Give me a prize, dammit.

    5. Re:Cause of the spokes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, yes, I forgot to add...

      Some stuff will fly off radially, but whatever imparted the additional momentum would itself slow down and fall in. The collisions could domino, leading to avalanches of pieces flying out and falling in. The formation of ring patterns, and ultimately, the creation of satellite bodies, may not proceed gradually and smoothly, but may be marked by sporadic bursts of chaos.

      Send prize money checks to "me", care of "couch". Thank you.

    6. Re:Cause of the spokes? by nherm · · Score: 1

      The wikipedia article says that the spokes are viewed in the B ring. Here says that the B inner edge has a density of 20 - 100 gm/cm2. So my question is, could the ring's ice particles be ionized by collissional processes, like the ice particles in a cumulonimbus clouds?

      Another question... which travels faster around saturn, the spokes or the ring's particles?

      And thanks for your informative post, glad to see anything different than +5 Funnies...

    7. Re:Cause of the spokes? by CheshireCatCO · · Score: 1

      Most of the ice particles are pretty big, so while ionization of them through collisions could occur, it's not likely to affect them much. (It's like shuffling your feet on the carpet: you can give yourself a good shock, but you aren't going to stick to the walls due to the excess charge.) What you're really after is forming a plasma around the particles. That could happen through particle bombardment in the magnetosphere or through photo-ionization. We suspect the latter for various reasons. (And I'm not up on all of those, to be honest.)

      As for who goes faster... it's actually depends on where in the rings you are. The synchronous orbit for Saturn is in the outer B ring, near the Cassini division. Inside of that distance the rings move faster, outside the spokes. (This is because the spokes are tied to the magnetic field, which rotates with the planet.)

      Incidentally, surface density is useful for gravity issues in the rings, but for collisions the parameter of interest is the "optical depth". It's a measure of how likely you are to collide with something if you try to run through the rings in that spot. For the B ring, the value is around 0.5-2.5 which is astonishingly high. Collisions occur multiple times per orbit, typically.

  18. magnetic fields by Kev_Stewart · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Could the magnetic fields be seasonal? I'm no expert but might that explain why they seem to appear and disappar periodically?

    1. Re:magnetic fields by CheshireCatCO · · Score: 1

      The spokes do appear to be tied to the seasons on Saturn. (Which has a much longer year, of course.)

      The field, however, is not. The field can't go away and come back that quickly and there's nothing that I can think of that would cause it to since it's generated in the interior of the planet where it's hard to come up with a way for a seasonal influence.

    2. Re:magnetic fields by Slur · · Score: 1

      I guess that's the question. If not the magnetic field, or some element of gravity that we haven't modeled yet... what about the general clockwork of the rings?

      Presumably, for millions of years this material has been circling Saturn. Long enough for matter of certain sizes and densities to fall into a regular pattern. It could simply be that on occasion certain elements "line up" for a period of time as they get into synchronous orbits.

      Of course if this were the case you'd expect spokes to appear and disappear here and there constantly, and not to appear all at once all around the planet.

      So perhaps it's related to the rotation of the matter in the rings. At certain intervals all the matter "flips over" due to their angle to the sun. Or it could even be related to the fact that much of the matter in Saturn's rings is heavier and/or darker on one side, and as solar radiation strikes these surfaces after millions of years the matter gets pitted in such a way that sunlight reflects differently depending on the angle.

      So do these spokes appear on both sides of the rings? A second probe would help with comparing angles.

      --
      -- thinkyhead software and media
    3. Re:magnetic fields by CheshireCatCO · · Score: 1

      "So do these spokes appear on both sides of the rings? A second probe would help with comparing angles."

      Yes, they appear on both the night and day sides.

  19. So to be discovered in Saturn's spokes... by saucercrab · · Score: 1

    I predict the next discovery to be made regarding the spokes will be the clothes pins and baseball cards.

  20. Ring Object Size by williwilli · · Score: 3, Informative
    While I understand your concept, another poster suggested the rings are made of smoke sized particles. Actually, the particles are sometimes quite large according to this page:

    More recently, astronomers bouncing radar off the rings and analyzing the reflected signal found that ring particles must be from a few centimeters to a few meters across. When the Voyager spacecraft went behind the rings with respect to the Earth, astronomers could measure the particles sizes from how Voyager's radio signal scattered off the particles and from how sunlight scattered through the rings. The ring particles range in size from the size of a small grain of sand to the size of a large house, but on average, they are about the size of your clenched fist. Spectroscopy of the rings shows that the particles are made of frozen water. Collisions between the ring particles keeps the ring system very flat and all of the particle orbits circular.

    from http://www.astronomynotes.com/solarsys/s16.htm

    though there may be other information available which I am unaware of, of course. But if this particle size stands, it seems a fairly simple explaination that a meteroid could hit a large ring object and cascade debris and impact effects throughout the rings themselves...

    free music downloads, recipes, games, and more
  21. Did I miss something? by clockwise_music · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Can someone please explain to me why the hell I should care?

    1. Re:Did I miss something? by Legion303 · · Score: 1

      Since you took time out of your busy schedule of not caring to post, you tell me.

    2. Re:Did I miss something? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You seem to misunderstand - nobody said you should. I believe the article was posted for those people who might.

      (To confirm you're not a script, please type the word in this image: baldly -- Ok!! Ok!! You don't have to rub it in!!)

  22. Artifacts? by HermanAB · · Score: 1

    Are these funny things not just artifacts from the digital image processing?

    --
    Oh well, what the hell...
    1. Re:Artifacts? by CheshireCatCO · · Score: 3, Informative

      There's nothing that we do that would lead to radial features. Especially across multiple images at consistent magnetic longitudes. Also, these have been seen by at least three or four cameras, now. So it's hard to imagine these being artifacts.

      (In fact, the images on the space.com site might even be the raw images.)

    2. Re:Artifacts? by JBHarris · · Score: 1

      Possibly a form of electromagnetic 'shadow' cast by an unseen object or force. Like the radiation belts that cause the aurora in the northern sky? Maybe Saturn's radiation or electromagnetic belts bend gravity and create lenses that, in-turn, cast shadows on the rings.

      my 5-second theory.

      Brad

  23. Ye of little faith. Pastafarians have the answer. by ScentCone · · Score: 3, Funny

    Clearly the Flying Spaghetti Monster has put planet-sized representations of His Noodly Appendages into orbit around Saturn to show us his majestic power.

    --
    Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
  24. My take on the rings... by kesuki · · Score: 1, Funny

    large radial structures in the rings, where seen by the Voyager spacecraft and have remained difficult to fully explain.

    Difficult to explain? clearly the RIAA heard that if you played the rings of saturn backwards on a record player you would hear some copyrighted music, so the dissapearing sections of the ring were clearly removed by cease and desit orders sent by RIAA lawyers to saturn.

  25. Spoke mechanism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    The theory I heard is that the ring particles pick up a charge from being bombarded by particles trapped in the radiation belts. When a meteoroid plows through them, it breaks small, dust-like particles off. Being light and charged, these particles are picked up by the rotating magnetic field and circle the planet as a radial spoke. As the charge leaks off of the dust, the dust particles go into normal orbits with the ones farther in orbiting faster, so the spoke spreads out into a wedge and then dissipates.

    1. Re:Spoke mechanism by CheshireCatCO · · Score: 2, Informative

      That doesn't really cover the seasonal nature of the spokes. (Or should I say "the apparent seasonal nature"?) It's likely that sunlight is involved in that case. It probably comes in through photo-ionization, which generates the same sort of plasma.

  26. does anyone know by pair-a-noyd · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    where you can find LARGE wallpaper sized (1400w or bigger) pictures of the planets and stars?
    I miss The Science Channel so much. It's the only thing worth watching but you have to get the $55 a month top level tier to get it. That's a lot of money for a single channel. ALL the other channels are trash.

    1. Re:does anyone know by theJML · · Score: 1

      You can find quite a few large images from nasa's photojournal web site. I don't have the link in front of me (since I'm at work), but if you go to nasa.gov or jpl.nasa.gov they usually link to it (as I'm sure google will). You can also look for the press area as they tend to have the huge hi-res versions for printing, typically being 3000+ by 2500+, and you can resize it to what you want with the gimp or photoshop or whatever. (unless you can run that res...)

      --
      -=JML=-
  27. English by hidispenser · · Score: 1
    "Spokes, large radial structures in the rings, where seen by the..."

    Achtung! That should be a were.

    1. Re:English by cswinter · · Score: 1

      and 'reappearce' should be reappearance.

    2. Re:English by randomencounter · · Score: 1

      Werespokes?

      --
      Forget diamonds, copyright is forever.
  28. Re:Ye of little faith. Pastafarians have the answe by PakProtector · · Score: 3, Funny
    Clearly the Flying Spaghetti Monster has put planet-sized representations of His Noodly Appendages into orbit around Saturn to show us his majestic power.

    Heathen. Clearly the Spokes will occur in, relate to, or somehow be connected to, the number five.

    Saturn was the Father of the Gods, but Eris is clearly showing us she can make him wear the galactic tu-tu.

    --

    Edward@Tomato - /home/Edward/ man woman
    man: no entry for woman in the manual.
    "Qua!?"

  29. Re:Ye of little faith. Pastafarians have the answe by ScentCone · · Score: 2, Funny

    Clearly the Spokes will occur in, relate to, or somehow be connected to, the number five.

    You should repent now, for His Noodly Will is nigh.

    In the meantime, I think we can clearly see that, like global temperatures, the number of Saturnian Spokes is inversely related to the number of pirates. The decline in pirates has obviously caused an increase in the number Noodly Saturnian Spokes.

    --
    Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
  30. Re:Ye of little faith. Pastafarians have the answe by PakProtector · · Score: 2, Funny
    In the meantime, I think we can clearly see that, like global temperatures, the number of Saturnian Spokes is inversely related to the number of pirates. The decline in pirates has obviously caused an increase in the number Noodly Saturnian Spokes.

    This is true. And the decline in Pirates is clearly due to the ancient, noble fued between the Pirates and the Ninja. Clearly this senseless violence must stop, lest the world come that much closer to the Great Heat Death, from which only the Lord Kelvin, who Loves US, and wants to CONSERVE OUR SOULS FROM ENTROPY, can protect us from.

    Fnord.

    --

    Edward@Tomato - /home/Edward/ man woman
    man: no entry for woman in the manual.
    "Qua!?"

  31. Re:Hmm. by Poromenos1 · · Score: 1

    Bah, why must you always bring facts in the conversation?

    --
    Send email from the afterlife! Write your e-will at Dead Man's Switch.
  32. This makes me wonder... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...how NASA's spokesman will react.

  33. Re:Ye of little faith. Pastafarians have the answe by madaxe42 · · Score: 1

    I disagree. I believe that the ancient noble feud between the Pirates and Ninja is a direct result of the increase of the number of saturnian spokes, as this has, in turn, caused a decrease in pirate population, and those who are ignorant of the way of the meatball (damned ninjas) are attempting to encroach on those few poor remaining pirates.

    Won't somebody PLEASE think of the Pirates!

  34. Spokes? by ion_ · · Score: 1

    It looks more like a ring than a spoke.

  35. /. certainly is... by Whizzmo2 · · Score: 1
    The following:
    Spokes, large radial structures in the rings, where seen by the Voyager spacecraft and have remained difficult to fully explain.

    ... should probably be ...
    Spokes, large radial structures in the rings, were seen by the Voyager spacecraft and have remained difficult to fully explain.

    But this is /., right? Typos are a form of personal expression, and grammar checking is verboten!
  36. Does Malor not have an editor? by Festeron · · Score: 1

    But what is the rice stuck to? The Saran Wrap, or the bullet?

  37. Re:Ye of little faith. Pastafarians have the answe by Flying+Purple+Wombat · · Score: 2

    like global temperatures, the number of Saturnian Spokes is inversely related to the number of pirates

    Given that the number of intellectual property pirates has increased dramatically in recent years, is it possible that that global temperatures and Saturnian spokes will decrease in the near future?

    Save the planet! Pirate music/videos/software!

    --
    If God had meant for man to see the sunrise, He would have scheduled it later in the day.
  38. Re:Ye of little faith. Pastafarians have the answe by ArsonSmith · · Score: 1

    Arrg, matie.

    --
    Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
  39. Upon further review... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It turns out that the spokes are actually letters. The scientists in charge of the research discovered this upon further analysis of the phenomena. The following is what they have been able to piece together so far:

    "Your ad here, call Murray at 999-3491"

  40. Re:Duh!Newtons First Law by ekimminau · · Score: 2, Informative

    Inertia is a property of matter where objects in motion remain in motion, and objects at rest remain at rest unless acted on by some external force (Newton's First Law). The more mass an object has, the more inertia, and thus, the harder it is to change the speed and direction of it in motion. In the case of rings, we are concerned with how easy it is to make the ring spin faster (or slower) - this is angular momentum. We want to minimize angular momentum so that the rings' responsiveness will be maximized. The thing about angular momentum is that it's not just how much the ring weighs, but the distribution of weight (mass, really) that really matters. Suppose you had a ring that weighed 100 million pounds. If the rim weighed 99.99 million pounds, that'd be one tough wheel to turn. But, if instead you had that 99 million pounds in the planetary core, it wouldn't be such a chore to spin the ring. The spokes are there to just transfer the enegy from the mass at the core to the rim of the ring. Centripetal force is the force that compels a body to move in a circular path. According to the law of inertia, in the absence of forces, an object moves in a straight line at a constant speed. An outside force must act on an object to make it move in a curved path. When you whirl a stone around on a string, you must pull on the string to keep the stone from flying off in a straight line. The force the string applies to the object is the centripetal force. The word centripetal is from two Latin words meaning to seek the center. Centripetal force acts in other ways as well. For example, a speeding automobile tends to move in a straight line. Centripetal force must act on the car to make it travel around a curve. This force comes from the friction between the tires and the pavement. If the pavement is wet or icy, this frictional force is reduced. The car may then skid off the road because there is not enough centripetal force to keep it moving in a curved path. Gyroscope inertia is the tendency of a spinning body to resist change in the direction of its axis. Inertia keeps the axis of a spinning top straight up until the top slows. Use the Right Hand Rule. Form your RIGHT hand in the "hitch hiker" mode. The fingers represent the spin direction of the wheel, and the thumb represents the directional force of the gyroscope axis. Angular Momentum (A) is the force of a rotating object. A=mvr (m=mass, v=velocity, r=radius). Centrifugal force is the force arising in a rotating reference system. It points away from the center, in the direction opposite to the centripetal force. Centripetal force is the force that causes an object to change direction. For uniform circular motion, the force is directed toward the center of the circle and has a magnitude given by mv2/r.

    --
    Armaments, 2-9-21 And Saint Attila raised the hand grenade up on high, saying, 'O Lord, bless this Thy hand grenade' N
  41. Re:Ye of little faith. Pastafarians have the answe by aeoneal · · Score: 1

    Logical. Flawlessly logical. I'm going to go do my bit to save the planet right now!