Building The Ultimate Home Theater PC

planetjay writes "Tom's Hardware takes a closer look at Building The Ultimate Home Theater PC." The article considers noise, aesthetics, and remote control. See also recent Ask SlashDot on MythTV extras and my favorite DIY PVR Resource"

Comments

Pointless

[Work Account]

You can get a great digital projector, receiver, speakers, and DVD player off of eBay, all reliable Japanese products, for about $1,000.

Why enforce unreasonable requirements upon the system such as "it must be a PC."?

Re:Pointless

[barcodez]

I have to agree; maybe I'm getting old, or get paid too much (ha ha, I wish), but I'm inclined just to buy something that just works.

Re:Pointless

[StarvingSE]

Because none of those can provide DVR-like capabilities, which is the point of connecting a PC to your home theater.

Re:Pointless

[frodo from middle ea]

not to troll , but how reliable is eBay ?

Re:Pointless

[decipher_saint]

Until the receiver can stream video over the network or allow custom web-enabled apps to run on my TV the HTPC still has relevance.

Re:Pointless

[Anonymous Coward]

Because I can set what I digitally record from work over the webpage that my machine hosts. Because I can burn that digital recording to a DVD and take it on the road. Because I can get constant weather updates which are better than the weather channel.

Re:Pointless

[max born]

Probably because you can do a lot more with a PC like transfer files across the net, organize you data, upgrade, add new features, connect to P2P, etc.. DVD players tend to be locked-down devices. Having used my (linux) laptop for movies and music for the past few years I find conventional CD/DVD players irritatingly dumb.

Re:Pointless

[rainman_bc]

AFAIK, D-Link and netgear and others make a wireless media box for $300 that'll stream video (divx et al), and mp3's across your wireless network. 54mbit is plenty of bandwidth for mpeg4 video.

Re:Pointless

[birge]

You can get a latte at Starbucks for, shit, like $4.50. Why enforce unreasonable requirements upon the system such as "it must play music?"

With a PC you can do different stuff. You can serve your music to other nodes on your home LAN, you can reprogram it at will if you use Myth TV, you can do a bunch of stuff that is tied to the fact that underlying everything is a PC, as opposed to some inscrutible and closed embedded system used by an OEM. Unless the Japanese start selling recievers running linux...

However, if your only concern is sound quality and aren't looking to do anything geeky, then you're right... If getting scored +5 Interesting for pointing out the trivially obvious can be considered being right. Wait, I must be new here...

Re:Pointless

[Anonymous Coward]

Insightful, yet depressing.

Re:Pointless

[sootman]

You can get a great digital projector, receiver, speakers, and DVD player...

Which of those products will record and store shows? My definition of "home theater" includes a whole lot more than "watching shit I got at Blockbuster."

Re:Pointless

[eno2001]

You're not getting old. The conditioning to be a consumer instead of a producer is working on you is all. ;P Whenever I hear someone say "it just works" I usually head the other direction because any system that "just works" is likely to suck away IQ.

Re:Pointless

[w3weasel]

i built mine, on the cheap... it looks like maybe you havent discovered the value of a PVR. In an entertainment system with a $700 dollar projector (DLP), and a $300.00 'home theatre in a box' (DVD+surround sound unit), you could add DVR functionality for around another $300 if your requirements are low.

Having said that, once you get a taste of watching your favorite Friday Night Sci-Fi epic on the day and time of your choosing... and commercial free ... now how much would you pay.

I'd sooner watch my PVR on a 13inch tube than suffer through 20 minutes of commercials, and countless household interruptions of my favorite 40 minute program viewed on your big-projector.

Not that I'd have to do that, mind you, since i did get a cheap DLP and already had a good stereo. Trust me, live with a PVR for a week, you'll never go back.

Re:Pointless

[queequeg1]

Except, to the best of my knowledge, none of those media centoer boxes will stream VOB files. This means that if you want to watch DVD movies from a central server, you will have to convert them all to mpeg2 files.

Re:Pointless

[Moofie]

How long does it take you to start your car in the morning?

Re:Pointless

[Golias]

You're not getting old. The conditioning to be a consumer instead of a producer is working on you is all.

More accurately, he is producing enough in his specialization that he doesn't need to do everything for himself. I'm sure he doesn't always bake his own bread from scratch, or get milk from a cow every morning, or perhaps doesn't even change his own oil.

It's what happens when you reach a certain age: Your time becomes worth more than the money you would save by giving it up on such tasks.

My HDTV home theater build was not as simple as his, but still much simpler than the linked article:

Step 1: Set up a Mac with EyeTV 500 and the Keyspan Remote Control sensor
Step 2: Hook it up to a projection system via DVI-HDMI connector
Step 3: There's no step three

Did I spend more than a '1337 hax0r spent on a comparable Linux-based system? Yeah, probably.

Do I give a shit? No, not really.

Re:Pointless

[norton_I]

It isn't always about the money. Some people just love to do this kind of thing, and don't really understand that others would rather not. Also, some of us are so good at this that it is just as easy to do it yourself and get something you are happier with. That is costs less is just a bonus.

Re:Pointless

[Golias]

So throw in a $200 TiVo and he's there.

There's more than one way to skin a cat.

For many people the best choice is to either hire somebody else to skin it for you, or just buy one that has already been skinned.

Oh, sure... you can get fresher cat meat doing it yourself, and probably at a much lower cost too, if you don't mind tracking stays through back-alleys... but not everybody who wants to eat cats has that kind of time on their hands.

Metaphor, consider yourself stretched!!!

Re:Pointless

[eno2001]

I don't trust anything that I don't control. This is why...

1. I bake my own bread
2. I make home made soy milk
3. I did all the wiring in my house myself
4. I build my own computer systems and compile everything from source code

If it's something outside of my scope of expertise, then I will go to someone else. But not until I've done an extensive background check to make sure that they hold the right ideologies. You were saying...

Re:Pointless

[Golias]

We're happy for you.

While you are making your soy milk and dreaming about your elaborate HTPC plans, I'll be enjoying my store-bought dairy while watching TV on my already-built entertainment system.

Re:Pointless

[Golias]

Some people just love to do this kind of thing, and don't really understand that others would rather not.

The original poster obviously does not love that kind of thing, and doesn't really understand why others would.

Isn't there room in this crazy, mixed-up world for both kinds of folks?

Re:Pointless

[eno2001]

Funny about that dude... I've been doing the same thing with my home made PVR for nrealy a year now. And the soy milk is quite tasty thank you very much. There is something to be said for doing it yourself. Nothing commercial ever compares unless you're less of a tech and more of a gadget guy. In that case, enjoy yourself. Whenever I have to buy something already built, I feel a great sense of disappointment because the quality can't compare to home made/custom built. Ever.

Re:Pointless

[Oliver Defacszio]

Oh, that's so stupid. There is absolutely no necessary correlation between a desire for something that does not require endless screwing around and mental dullness. In fact, now that I think about it, I tend to view people with a desire for simplicity in a better default light than those who can't have enough complexity swirling about their head and neck, because the simplicity-seekers tend to be the ones who think about their needs instead of immediately grabbing the newest shiniest whatever.

It sounds to me like YOU've been conditioned by Linux's "everything endlessly complicated must be better" mentality.

Re:Pointless

[Rude Turnip]

"If it's something outside of my scope of expertise, then I will go to someone else."

Yet as soon as somebody goes to someone else for something out of their expertise (which you happen to be able to do yourself), you make a judgment call on that person. That is simple hypocrisy.

Re:Pointless

[Anonymous Coward]

You could also just read a book. God how I hate when morons redefine the question w/o answering it. There is more to the world that your little mind knows.

Re:Pointless

[eno2001]

What the hell are you talking about?

Re:Pointless

[Rob the Bold]

Why enforce unreasonable requirements upon the system such as "it must be a PC."?

Because then the story would be one sentence long. It's those requirements that make for an interesting read. The limitations provide an opportunity for creativity, like writing a sonnet, painting a watercolor or retelling bible stories in the medium of Lego.

Re:Pointless

[eno2001]

What the hell are you talking about? You have no business reading Slashdot if you can't put together a PVR, or a home HDTV system. This is a TECHNOLOGY site. It's for people who can work with TECHNOLOGY. I was under the assumption that most of us here have built and designed electronic equipment from scratch before moving onto PCs...

Re:Pointless

[Rageon]

Um, I'd love to know what kind of speakers you are finding to fit within that budget. You can't get decent speakers for $1000, much less all the other equipment.

Re:Pointless

[gozer]

Not to flame, but if you think you can get a "great" projector, receiver, speakers, and DVD player for $1000, you're slightly naive. It'd be more realistic to say "average" system for that amount. In the "good" range, you'd easily spend that much on each component. "Great" is well out of my league, ebay or not. No idea how this got modded +5 Interesting.

Back to the topic at hand, I've never really felt the need to build myself a myth-tv box, simply because my DirecTivo has been awesome. Hackable, if I really wanted to go that route, and it simply works. All for about the price of a decent video-capture card. Of course there are the monthly fees, but that's another story.....

The place where the HTPC really shines IMO, and as a lot of others have stated already, is that it serves as a centralized media hub. From my HTPC, I have access to 350+ CDs, dozens of movies, games, weather, and a browser -- all from the comfort of my couch. If you stick a good UI in front of it all ( I personally am using xlobby at the moment, and have been very impressed thus far ) so that even your Mom can use it, so much the better. In addition, you can do cool things like upsample your 480p DVDs to 720P to get improved resolution using freely available software like ffdshow. Heck, with xlobby I can even set up my system to play 15 minutes worth of the latest previews downloaded off the web, then transition seamlessly into the "main attraction". The ooh and ahh factor of that is pretty damn cool! I still have my DirecTivo, and don't plan on replacing it any time soon, but I wouldn't be without my HTPC. To me, it's obvious you've never been exposed to what an HTPC can really bring to the table. It's well worth the $500 or so it would cost you to put one of these together.

Re:Pointless

[Rude Turnip]

Some of us can, others cannot. Some can, but also choose not to. /. hasn't been a pure technology site for a long time.

"I was under the assumption that most of us here have built and designed electronic equipment from scratch before moving onto PCs..."

To use an old cliche: "You must be new here!"

Re:Pointless

[Fulcrum of Evil]

none of those media centoer boxes will stream VOB files. This means that if you want to watch DVD movies from a central server, you will have to convert them all to mpeg2 files.

And they won't either. The DVD consortium won't license such a device, so anything that does something like that will have to be homebrew or slightly grey market. Someone tried doing it before - they built a $20k DVD jukebox that basically stored DVD images on a disk array and streamed it over the network. They couldn't get licensing unless they made the user insert the dvd while playing it, which defeated the whole point.

Re:Pointless

[Anonymous Coward]

You can't get decent speakers for $1000, much less all the other equipment.

Oh please. I suppose you can't get a decent car for under $200,000 either right?

Re:Pointless

[Anonymous Coward]

I wholeheartedly agree with you, after pricing the components and time to build my own I decided to just buy a mac mini. I just kept running into threads on newsgroups that went something like "after 2 months of screwing around I finally got my linux/windows htpc to work with the silent mini components I was able to buy." I give the x86 world about 2 more years for the htpc to become reality, the mini fanless components are still expensive and there are still too many bugs to work out. The mac mini works wonderfully and I still spent less that $1000 on an htpc.

Re:Pointless

[Anonymous Coward]

Step 3: There's no step three

Ah, but there was: brag about it on slashdot!

Re:Pointless

[monkeytalks]

Yeah, it's really too bad that a general purpose PC can only be used as a DVR. Imagine if you could use it to play all different kinds of video files (http://www.videolan.org/vlc/) that some people get from teh Interwebs (http://thepirate-useyourimagination-.org/brwsearc h.php?b=1&d=200). When I think of all that CPU sitting there unused, I just wish there was a way I could use it to deinterlace and scale the video better than the projector (http://deinterlace.sourceforge.net/about.htm). It's a real shame that there's no way to filter and soften artifacts, make gamma correction or do other post-processing (http://sourceforge.net/projects/ffdshow). I mean wow, what if you had something that could do that to even make DVDs look cleaner and more accurate (http://www.theatertek.com/forums/showthread.php?s =6486412abf926166ef4d7dc0be10c450&t=4392). If you could do that, you may even put some of them on your hard drive if that wasn't impossible (http://www.afterdawn.com/software/video_software/ dvd_rippers/dvd_decrypter.cfm). Even if there were a way to keep movies on a hard drive, you still wouldn't have a way to remove the ads, trailers, french soundtracks and other crap (http://www.dvdshrink.org/why.html). Gosh, I keep thinking too that with a projector in the home theater room and everything, it's too bad there's no way to play video games on it (http://www.mame.net/).

Re:Pointless

[timothykaine]

Because my DVD player cant download or stream any kind of content from anywhere but a disc.

Because my digital projector can't achieve anything higher than an XGA resolution.

Because my receiver/speakers consume far more power and create a buzzing sound when not in use. Nor can it retain the information required to keep different components at different volumes/eqs/resolutions.

Because my DVD player cant timeshift or record.

Because 4.7GB just isn't enough.

Because Enemy Territory doesn't run on my DVD player.

Because my DVD player cant get my email.

Because none ofthese things are a PC. So "it must be a PC".

If you're reading this post via your DVD player, feel free to flame me. ;-)

Re:Pointless

[StarvingSE]

Not the issue at hand.. TFA is geared towards people who want to skin their own cat, because they like their cat a specific way, with their own blend of herbs and spices.....

wait...eeewwwwwwwwww

Re:Pointless

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, that's the only thing I never was interested into HTPC wise.

Most remote controls for PCs suck;
Most PVR software was limited or sucked in some way (too many to cover);
Poor integration of the PVR software with other "modules" (like playing music and other stuff);
You need a TV tuner (good ones aren't super cheap), which also means analog capture (interference, filtering, poor sampling, ...) and reencoding (more quality loss) -- the very best way to make your picture look like crap - especially after deinterlacing (bad enough that I will NOT watch it! And no I'm not that picky);

Whereas for not much more than the price of a Hauppauge PVR 250, I got a satellite PVR which already includes 120gb HD - enough for 80h of recordings (too much for me - and it can easily be transferred to a PC, no DRM involved either), a really great remote (much better than ATI or MCE ones - but not quite a Pronto), 100% lossless digital capture (including DD AC3 5.1 sound) - right from the transportstream! I.e. a bit for bit copy of the broadcast - FAR better quality than any capture card can ever hope to ever achieve or even approach (almost DVD quality). A TV guide that actually works, that is accurate and has all channels (no setup required either, no internet connection required, and no fees). No Tivo-style PVR monthly fees either. It's completely silent. Small and good looking enclosure without having to buy a 500$ D-Vine case. Less heat generated and less power used than a PC. Wife friendly. No updates, security patches, reboots, reformatting, OS install or otherwise required - ever. No assembly required. Buy it, open box, put it on shelf, plug it, you're done! I mean, the list of advantages is virtually endless.

Nothing - be it MCE 2005, MythTV, or any of the other PVR software - comes even close, not even remotely. Don't even mention burning DVDs from your analog captured shows. If you can watch these and find the quality acceptable, then it's time to see your nearest optician!

I don't know why everybody seem to want to stick to old crappy analog cable, the quality sucks so bad... Then they want to PVR/Analog capture that... It's beyond me.

There's plenty of valid uses for a HTPC, but PVR isn't one of them!

Some good/useful things to do with it:
-Record/watch/play HDTV stuf (OTA/DVB streams or HD DVDs in WMV9 if you want)
-Deinterlace/scale crappy 480i signal for HDTV
-Play DVDs (with ffdshow post processing, scaling, deinterlacing, etc)
-Play other formats (mpeg4 stuff - divx, xvid, etc) from video server or shares
-Play PC games on TV
-Backup DVDs
-Weather, slideshows and other similar stuff if you like those

Re:Pointless

[Anonymous Coward]

Step 4: Profit!

Re:Pointless

[Gilmoure]

That's what I'm building. It's a mini tower with 4 400 GB drives. For the moment, I'm just using it for playing stuff on the TV. I have a Sony DVD juke box but it's pretty sucky. Haven't tried watching DVD images across my network yet. That should be fun.

Re:Pointless

[hcdejong]

TiVo only works in the US and UK. Also, an HTPC allows easy playback of material downloaded off the internet (unlike TiVo), and it's more flexible (I've seen HTPCs with 6 tuner cards, for instance).

Re:Pointless

[YomikoReadman]

As with all things, most certainly. However, as demonstrated by the GGP, one should show a modicum of respect and not refer to people who enjoy building a MythTV box or their own home theatre PC as a '1337 Linux hax0r', and pronounce the activity as 'pointless'.

Re:Pointless

[mkv]

It certainly doesn't have to be a PC. Problem is, a PC is the only solution if you don't want many boxes and want to a) record tv shows, b) burn dvds, c) listen to net radio stations d) update your system cheaply when something new comes along like HDTV (we don't have HD in Finland yet). I'd love to be able to buy a device off the shelf that does everything but I've never seen such a device on sale. I doubt it exists..

Re:Pointless

[Anonymous Coward]

This is a TECHNOLOGY site.

1. No, it's not.

2. Even if it was, not everybody who likes reading about cars can build one. Why should electronics be any different?

Re:Pointless

[Golias]

one should show a modicum of respect and not refer to people who enjoy building a MythTV box or their own home theatre PC as a '1337 Linux hax0r'

Wow. There was a time on this site when "1337 hax0r" was considered high praise. I guess those days are gone.

Re:Pointless

[eno2001]

Those two statements alone are the most frightening I've seen in a while and probably the most illustrative of why the quality of American IT workers is dismal. I've been reading this site and have been a member since 1997. I can attest to the fact that it certainly started off as a TECHNOLOGY site. Sadly, all the people who filtered in later are simply noise generators. Much of the readership created by the 90s internet bubble and still attempting to stick with the IT moniker without having any actual undestanding or experience of IT. That is completely counter to everything this site originally stood for. I guess it's ture. Slashdot really has changed. For the worse.

Re:Pointless

[Anonymous Coward]

Sadly, all the people who filtered in later are simply noise generators.

Says user 527078, who feels the need to brag about making his own soy milk as if it establishes some kind of geek cred.

Five years ago, Slashdot was filled to the brim with puff pieces about how "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" is a useful lens to examine the lessons learned from the school shootings at Columbine High School.

Before that, it was mostly puff pieces about Star Wars fandom, LEGO bricks, and japanese animation. It was never purely an IT site.

It's "News for Nerds", not "Tech Stories for Engineers." If that's what you are looking for, go read Ars.

Re:Pointless

[Golias]

it looks like maybe you havent discovered the value of a PVR

I have a PVR system, and I find that the value of it would be a hell of a lot higher if 99% of what's on TV didn't completely suck.

Thank God for NetFlix.

Re:Pointless

[Golias]

I was under the assumption that most of us here have built and designed electronic equipment from scratch before moving onto PCs...

Pffft!

I don't know who gave you that impression, but you are grossly misinformed. Most of the folks here are "Generation Y" kids who "moved on to PC's" shortly after learning how to use the toilet and tie their own shoes.

Sure, there's a few of us old-timers kicking about as well, but we are clearly in the minority... and we don't all necessarily give a shit about electronics either. Slashdot is "News for Nerds." That includes music nerds, chemistry nerds, literature nerds, lego nerds, anime nerds, programmer nerds, BOFH nerds, MSCE nerds, Linux nerds, etc. etc. etc.

Re:Pointless

[eno2001]

So you only have one Slashdot account? How do you do any trolling? Oh that's right, like the rest of the chum monkeys: AC.

Re:Pointless

[eno2001]

First of all. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! That's actually the best summation of what Slashdot really is that I've ever read. But I'm still suprised that a lot of Gen-Xers aren't as into computers as I am. (I don't think I fall into the Gen-X category because I was never a "slacker" like so many of them were.) Oddly enough, I'm only 35, but I still seem to have a lot more in common with Baby Boomers. I was raised in a virtual 1950 environment.

Re:Pointless

[Golias]

I was raised in a virtual 1950 environment.

That sounds like the worst MMORPG ever!

Re:Pointless

[eno2001]

You think so? You must have never experienced first virtual love in a virtual soda shop with a virtual girl, wearing virtual glasses and a virtual poodle skirt.

if you want just a cheap player

[grub]

If you want just a cheap player without recording or TV the Philips DVP-642 DVD player can play regular DVDs, MP3, MPEG4, divx and xvid. Dirt cheap at places like Best Buy. Or get an Xbox with mod chip and Xbox Media Center.

Re:if you want just a cheap player

[frodo from middle ea]

CyberHome CH-DVD 300 has played anything and everything I have thrown at it.

All region DVDs, NTSC, PAL , all combinations of home burnt CD/DVD +/- R/RW , all types of picture CDs, mp3 cds, VCD, SVCD, everything, even corrupt DVDs which a 300 $ DVD player wouldn't play.

Only thing missing are DivX , Xvid etc and lack of DVI output. but for 20$ I am not complaining.

Re:if you want just a cheap player

[ImaLamer]

I got one off of Amazon cheap and they can be found even some stores like Target. They can play just about anything you throw at it. I've been using it to watch a lot of shows that I record in MPEG-2 on my PC. No need for buying computer hardware and the licenses that come with it (on Windows at least) when you can plug in this DVD player for under seventy dollars and play it all. There are limitations, like no GMC or QPEL, but if you already have a fast PC then you can convert them with out those features with freely available software for just about any platform.

Recording with a cheap card like the TV Wonder to MPEG-2 and putting it on DVD-RW is easy enough but I just built a PC to plug into the receiver and TV with a few eBay parts (video card and a 500MCE) and an abandoned 900 MHZ Celeron. It plays back shows while recording just fine. No HDTV, but then again I can't afford the monthly bill of cable so I have to put that off for a while anyways. For an investment of about 200 bucks and a three or four year old PC will due. Just go the hardware encoding and decoding route.

Re:if you want just a cheap player

[Sheetrock]

Actually, this is exactly what I did. I was thinking about throwing together a MythTV setup for a room that needed something to play music and watch DVDs but I thought I'd give this a try first.

The divx/xvid thing is cute, but I've noticed that unfortunately content that is too large for the TV resolution is clipped rather than scaled -- not to mention that certain audio codecs won't be played back, so if you've got an xvid/ogg movie you hear nothing. So care must be taken in encoding/reencoding content to fit the set.

It is the best player I've owned, however. Unexpectedly, the CD/MP3 playback has been the best feature of the unit for me, letting me see the track number and time without requiring the TV set be on.

So, at least as far as my experiences go, it's been a valid alternative to building a media PC. Sure, I wouldn't mind playing games or recording TV on the thing, but this was like 1/5th of the cost and did all I needed. TV is awful enough that I'll come out ahead simply buying the DVD sets of what I want to watch.

THE UNEDITED VERSION

[planetjay]

Tom's Hardware takes a closer look at Building The Ultimate Home Theater PC. "Hype aside, is it really possible to build a PC that is quiet and does everything that a high-end remote-controlled set-top box can do? And don't forget it's got to look good in your living room, too." I say YES! It was kind of refreshing to see them mangle some hardware forcing it into a small/slim form factor HTPC case, although it was less than refreshing to see them choose Windows MCE 2005 as their OS/PVR software. See also recent Ask SlashDot on MythTV extras and my favorite DIY PVR Resource

Re:THE UNEDITED VERSION

[WraithRealm]

Sorry, buddy... If it's any indication from previous /.'ing, your homepage will probably be bombarded, your bandwidth sucked up, and you'll probably be whipped by your bandwidth provider for traffic overflow.

See, the editor did you a favor. Not to mention removing a little self-advertising for your blog.

Good luck!

Re:THE UNEDITED VERSION

[chrisnewbie]

just buy a used ibm or compaq thinclient. They are quite nice looking and very small. Cannot be upgraded easily since everything is so compaq but you can get a p4 1.8 ghz with 40 HD for under 300 $ with 2000 on it. Whatever you want to put as an o.s is your business after that.

Re:THE UNEDITED VERSION

[Anonymous Coward]

> See, the editor did you a favor. Not to mention removing a little self-advertising for your blog.

Right. Only Roland Piquepaille is allowed to get self-advertising for his blog here on Slashdot.

Re:THE UNEDITED VERSION

[Ryan Amos]

I dunno, once you get over the fact that it's windows, MCE can be pretty nice. The .wmv format irks me though.

I have a Myth box, and it.. well it's ok. It crashes quite frequently (most often when it tries to change a channel to record a show on the channel I was already watching) and it lacks a certain... "polish" that windows MCE has (this is mainly in the UIs; myth's skins are amateurish at best and god awful ugly at worst.. and this goes for the LxM skins as well, though LxM's guide data service is nice.) The main reason I stick to myth is the ease of exporting the .nuv files to xvid.

It's been almost 6 months since the last release, and I'm afraid that Myth has hit that inevitable point in open source development where the developers want to rewrite the whole thing. I don't read any of the development lists though, so I could be wrong, it could have just stopped. :)

Re:THE UNEDITED VERSION

[prophet5590]

just a minor thing - MCE doesn't record in .wmv - it records in ".dvr-ms", which is mpeg2 wrapped in a container with metadata, etc. There are a lot of tools that will extract the mpeg2. VideoRedo is a good one. Their dvr-ms support isn't "official", but I've used it to extract & edit mpeg2 a lot, with no problems. There are a lot of other tools for working with MCE files, at www.thegreenbutton.com. dCut is another good tool.

Cheap?

[MindStalker]

So has anyone figured out how to build a TiVo equivelent for $200, untill then I'm sticking with my TiVo.

Re:Cheap?

[AndyG314]

Using a pIII I already owned I make one for 239.99 which is pritty close

Re:Cheap?

[bombadillo]

Exactly, I had a friend the other day ask about that. I told them to get a TIVO. You would have to spend over 1K before you could get the same performance as a tivo. DirectTv tivos cost 99 dollars. Tivo's are much cheaper and easier to use/maintain than a DIY solution.

Re:Cheap?

[Anonymous Coward]

OK - But can you use your Tivo to run your word processor or spreadsheet program?

Re:Cheap?

[ploss]

So has anyone figured out how to build a TiVo equivelent for $200, untill then I'm sticking with my TiVo.

Remind me in a few years, when the cost of your Tivo + subscription is more than you would pay for a linux + myth box. Also, I'd rather not be at the whim of some company who can reintroduce (their own!) commercials into the programming with the flick of a switch, and will also likely have intense pressure to support things like the broadcast flag.

Anyways, don't just blow off the other solutions because yours has better short term gain.

(P.S. I added Myth to my Gentoo box, and all it took was a few hours and a $70 tuner card, but YMMV...)

Re:Cheap?

[popa]

Yep. Recycling. Most people that are interested in making a PVR would be able to find a 40G+ HD(100+ are like what, $50+ish now?), and a ~500Mhz+ cpu somewhere in their house or at least the local used place. Then for under 100 you can get a cheap basic tuner card. That's how I built my first.

Re:Cheap?

[Anonymous Coward]

don't forget to factor in monthly fees (which may just be included in your cable/satellite bill). you may pay less up front but after a few years you're probably more than doubling the ammount you sink into that tivo. not to mention i don't trust tivo not to push an update to your device that would restrict how long you could keep recordings or how you use them (limit transferring them to other computers).

Re:Cheap?

[AndyG314]

if you play your cards right, you can get a 160GB drive for like 30 bucks at a compUSA (with several mail in rebates of course). You just have to be willing to buy it when the promotion is going on.

Re:Cheap?

[MindStalker]

Luckily Directv tivos are only 5 bucks a month for the service and so far they havn't even put the during FF banners in much less the restrictive recordings. But who knows.

Re:Cheap?

[Bohiti]

You would have to spend over 1K before you could get the same performance as a tivo.

That's pretty ignorant. I'm no zealot, but after analyzing all my options, including TiVo and ReplayTV, I went the DIY route, but not exactly HTPC. It is not complicated at all, the only caveat is that you get a device in your living room networked with your normal PC, wherever that may be.

I've got full what I believe is full TiVo functionality (pause/rewind live tv, robust recording options) and then some (auto-skip commercials, watch other videos, play mp3's). Two devices needed:

Hauppauge Media MVP $86
Hauppauge PVR250 tuner card $137
(I think you can spend less on a different tuner card; You'll want hardware encoding however.)

Didn't need a new hard drive. I just want to keep current on shows, I'm not doing long-time archiving here. I never use more than 20-30gb.

I use GB-PVR software for windows. This guy is really good. Very active developer and community, though the base project is not open source.

My main PC in the basement runs GBPVR on Windows XP. I also use it for gaming, surfing, etc. In the background, it records shows. Media MVP is RCA-plugged into my 27" TV in my living room, streams content from my PC over my home network.

Very easy if I want to take a video with me, there's just .mpg's on my PC's hard drive. Burn it to DVD, or copy it to my laptop for a car ride.

I like my setup.

Re:Cheap?

[maskedavenger]

a great way to build something like a Tivo for cheap is to salvage parts. I got my hands on (for free) a 300mhz celeron and 200 gigs of SCSI drives (5x40). All I had to buy was the tuner card. which was $60 I think. I built my server this way too. If you ever have a friend say they're going to throw away their old machine, gank it and strip it!

Re:Cheap?

[Monkey]

With 5 SCSI drives running, that thing must be as loud as a mofo though.

Re:Cheap?

[Oliver Defacszio]

Hey. I'm as big a fan of recycled hardware as the next jerk, but this is a bit of a different situation. Noise from a HTPC sucks, and it's no secret that old drives and PSU fans with a million miles on the clock are noisier than new stuff. Older Celerons may actually be better than new CPUs because one could run them without fans (my C433 never had a fan over five years), but CPUs are only a small part of the picture.

I imagine that this is even more noticeable with SCSI drives, which tended to be louder from the start because they're less frequently used in desktop situations. You've got five -- can you hear yourself breathe among those howling sweethearts?

Re:Cheap?

[djunderdog]

And its actually free with DirecTV if you have their biggest package.

Re:Cheap?

[martin_b1sh0p]

Try $50. Just picked up my Tivo last night which includes a $150 mail in rebate :-)

Re:Cheap?

[martin_b1sh0p]

and then some (auto-skip commercials, watch other videos, play mp3's)

Hmm, just bought a Tivo last night and it does skip commercials (30 second skip) and it plays mp3's from the computer over my wifi and it views photos as well. Ok, so it doesn't play other video formats. But you make it sound like you got a TON of additional features. I beg to differ.

Re:Cheap?

[Skye16]

I got a pair of 250gb SATA Seagate 7200.8's for 112 a piece, no rebate. You go with comp usa/bestbuy/circuitcity and you can rock out with the mail in rebates. I didn't because I'm against them on principle (principle being I'm too lazy to send them in and, without fail, manage to shaft myself)

Re:Cheap?

[Bohiti]

Oh, and I don't pay a subscription.

Re:Cheap?

[maskedavenger]

actually yea, I soundproofed my old case with mats that i use for my studio. I used rubber gaskets to mount the drives which really cut sound by a ton. That way the whole case doesn't vibrate when the disks spin. As for fans, there's the PSU fan and I put a vantec stealth in the back (and the celeron is passive, has a duct over it from the back case fan). The computer sits behind the TV and everything so it's not even seen. Then I have my ATI Remote Wonder so that only the IR reciever is visible. Works pretty well...

Re:Cheap?

[SleepyHappyDoc]

So has anyone figured out how to build a TiVo equivelent for $200, untill then I'm sticking with my TiVo.

Sure. I bought a dual Xeon (pentium 3, at 550mHz) machine on eBay for a little over $60 including shipping, then I waited until WinTV-PVR-150's went on sale for $99 at a local store. I installed Gentoo and MythTV, fiddling with it an hour or two a day for a week until it worked the way I wanted it to. The Xeon machine conveniently came with a nice RAID setup, as well as 512MB of RAM, and runs perfectly. All you have to do is research and shop smart.

Oh, and the prices I mentioned were Canadian dollars.

They did you a favor buddy

[Work Account]

There's no need for you to complain.

Rob simply took out the link to your personal site instead of Slashdotting it into obliteration which probably would give you an extra $50 or $100 to pay your webhost this month assuming you don't have unlimited bandwidth.

Re:They did you a favor buddy

[planetjay]

No. They didn't.

Re:They did you a favor buddy

[soulsteal]

Don't worry friend, he shall pay for his hubris.

Re:They did you a favor buddy

[lolocaust]

He put his link there. He obviously felt that he could handle a little slashdotting. Or he wanted the pagehits to generate ad revenue. (without giving ./ a cut)

stupid mods...

[Anonymous Coward]

Holy fuck how is that a troll? Damn they must be giving out mod points to the special schools today...oh well I better post this as AC so I don't wind up like you...poor bastard.

Re:stupid mods...

[Anonymous Coward]

The "Troll" mods probably work for Microsoft and didn't like my suggestion of modding an xbox :)

Re:stupid mods...

[techno-vampire]

Don't be upset; I just metamodded it UNFAIR.

Why PC?

[Mr Guy]

It depends on what your goal is really. The PC requirement is there for content delivery. The PC is a media repository. With a proper network connection and a good client server architecture, the PC adds an amazing degree of flexibility.

Re:Why PC?

[Anonymous Coward]

Plus the PC provides a great outlet for games and porno... I mean, why not? 80"+ screen, dark room, surround sound, LFE...

I'd be wary if I were a TiVo subscriber

[Work Account]

They are getting MUCH more restrictive with how and what you can record.

Also, considering that there's free and open source software out there (http://www.mythtv.org/) that turns any PC into a PVR, TiVo's backs are against the wall and recently they have been breaking things and limited what you can do with the shows you record.

They also recently added more commercials/advertisements that show up when you FF/RW.

Just a heads up. I know my one friend is wary he paid so much for a lifetime subscription, and other friends are sick of paying $13+ a month for a crippled PVR.

Re:I'd be wary if I were a TiVo subscriber

[Cromac]

I haven't seen any of that with DirecTV+Tivo. No limitations on recording anything and no commercials or ads shown when FF/RW. Tivo must have a different agreement with DirecTV than they do with their regular subscribers.

Could this be considered a dupe?

[ShyGuy91284]

Can I call this a dupe since it seems to be a reoccurring topic? Oh well, It's useful information, and I've always been a fan of Linux PVRs, so I guess it's ok....

get sth more

[in-tech]

what about doing it yourself? build your own system, mini-ITX http://www.mini-itx.com/, use your own custom enclosures http://www.protocase.com/, what else, ... for silence http://www.mini-itx.com/projects/mega-itx/, plus the harware from ebay http://ebay.com/ will do fine.

Re:get sth more

[cyclingargonaut]

Here's a very cool one on ebay!!

They still linked to your site

[Work Account]

If anyone clicks your username it goes right to your domain.

Stop complaining. You still got a free advertisement for your crappy site and will get thousands of hits.

Re:They still linked to your site

[planetjay]

When did I complain? Sorry you don't like the site. And I wanted a link straight to my project.

Re:They still linked to your site

[Anonymous Coward]

Your "project" is pathetic. And what's with the web site name? Planet Jay? LOL! It's his planet, we just live here! Get back to me after you graduate high school.

Re:They still linked to your site

[Anonymous Coward]

> Your "project" is pathetic. And what's with the web site name? Planet Jay? LOL! It's his planet, we just live here! Get back to me after you graduate high school.

Yeah, it's almost as dumb as planetquake, which is the name of some obscure website noone has ever heard of...

it's the reliability of the people on eBay

[fideli]

For the service it provides, eBay is reliable. I have not seen many glitches, despite the minor one that came up on Slashdot a while back. It's all about the people that are on eBay, selling stuff. It's no different than asking how reliable the Auto Trader is.

As for Paypal, well, we'll leave that for another post..

Toms Hardware uses Microsoft Media Edition

[pesc]

It would be a great timesaver if the slashdot story could mention up front that the Toms Hardware article ends up building a Microsoft Media (whatever its called) box.

Re:Toms Hardware uses Microsoft Media Edition

[planetjay]

Sorry, but it was edited. The original story did.

Re:Toms Hardware uses Microsoft Media Edition

[catch23]

Don't worry, most of the commenters (like myself) won't bother to read the article anyway before posting! You must be new here.

How is it the "ultimate" when it only has 1 tuner?

[VitrosChemistryAnaly]

Okay, I fail to see the big deal. This thing doesn't offer much more than my TiVo. To be the ultimate it needs to be able to record more than one show at once.

Put that in a "component" case and I'll be happy.

Cases?

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been looking for a decent case for a HTPC; looking to run Myth on a modified Redhat or Debian install. Anyone seen these www.beblu.net? Any comments?

At EPCOT in Disney World

[ScrewTivo]

they have a way kewl home theater. You can get all the specs from them. The Disney Imagineers do nothing second class. I sat through the presentation and all I can say is I WANT ONE! They also have a "home of the future" that has awesome tech including a whirlpool with a TV, stereo that uses the wall as a speaker, and best of all a self cleaning toilet bowl (eeewww).

Not the PC, but

[ch-chuck]

nothing is ultimate but this one is a pretty good theatre for the ultimate home theatre PC.

Re:Not the PC, but

[dfghjk]

That's nasty. You certainly don't want colorful distracting decorations in the immediate vacinity of the screen and all the decorations can't do much for sound quality either. It's horrible looking and can't be all that good a theatre either.

If it isn't made for critical listening and viewing then it's just amusing.

Re:Not the PC, but

[FoogyFoo]

Yes, and watch out for those grapes. They're sour

The IDEAL HTPC is ....

[HerculesMO]

The one that's IDEAL for YOU.

I know the arguements about MythTV and MCE and blah blah blah. The simple fact of the matter is that you have to use what you are comfortable with. If you are comfortable paying $13 a month (or whatever Tivo charges now) in addition to $100-$200 for the set top box with no control over what happens to its software, then that's the option you take.

If you are comfortable using Linux and feel confident in setting up MythTV to work properly, then you get yourself a cheap system and build a MythTV HTPC.

And if you are comfortable with Windows (as I am), want something simple to use for your family and friends, then you go with Media Center Edition.

I'll even voice my praise for Media Center because while it may not be the most powerful, most bug free, fastest, or even prettiest (compared to some skins from Meedio), it works pretty simply and has a nice remote.

I know the arguements about them all, and I've tried them all. MythTV, SageTV, BeyondTV, Meedio, and finally MCE (it took a long time to get to this point). Before that, I used ReplayTV and then Tivo (both of which I modded with hard drives and sold for a profit on eBay). MCE for me, is the best solution there is. It gets the TV times, changes the channels on my cable box, records easily, and has a GREAT remote. And in the end the fact I can surf the web on my TV or some other stuff on my television (in my bedroom) makes MCE a winner.

If you want a SILENT solution, it's pretty simple. Get yourself a Shuttle box, get a nice mobile processor (Sempron should do just fine), replace the bearing fan in the Shuttle with a Silen-X fan, and your PC is deadly silent. Then just learn how to use the STANDBY feature of your PC, and it's completely silent. A good hard drive is also key, as the crappier ones will make more noise. Then buy a $15 sound card with an optical out so you can pass sound to a proper reciever. Get a passively cooled video card with TV out (unless you are doing hardcore gaming, in which case you aren't really building an HTPC), and a copy of Windows MCE (or MythTV or whatever you want).

The total cost for my box, with the OS was around $350 -- and it runs perfectly though with Windows on it, I have it set on a schedule to reboot once a week. I know the Tivo users will always say how cheap it is in comparison to have their box and just make it easy for themselves but in the end.. I can browse the web, check my email, play some games, check the weather, set an alarm, AND watch and record television for my $350 budget. You paid say, $300 with the lifetime subscription for for $50 more, I have oodles more features and STILL have a snazzy remote.

So go enjoy Tivo... I'm happy with my solution.

Re:The IDEAL HTPC is ....

[enrico_suave]

you're my new hero! kudos!

Re:The IDEAL HTPC is ....

[Corporal Dan]

Your box sounds great...do you mind posting specs?

Re:The IDEAL HTPC is ....

[HerculesMO]

Sure..

Shuttle XPC SN41G2BV3 Athlon XP/Duron/Sempron
Sempron 2500
512MB Crucial RAM
200GB Seagate IDE drive
Windows XP MCE 2005 (OEM)
PVR-150MCE
MCE Remote
nVIDIA DVD Decoder
ATI 9200LE (fanless) with TV Out
Chaintech AV710 VIA ENVY 24PT Sound Card

That's about it... granted it will probably run a tad over $350 (more like $450) but I had existing parts like the RAM, hard drive, and graphics card. My setup is hooked up to a Yamaha Dolby Digital reciever that allows me to play my DVDs in 5.1 surround, and I have a Gyration wireless keyboard/mouse setup that I use if I ever need it. Primarily though, my HTPC is for recording TV but I also love to play MP3s thru it because the stereo system in my room kicks some nice butt, and sounds pretty darned nice.

If you want a few tips.. BUY USED STUFF! You can find tons of stuff available at Anandtech or HardOCP's forums by visiting the For Sale/Trade section. Lots of times you can trade stuff you have for stuff you need -- it's not how I built THIS system, but it is how you can build one.

Regardless though, that should give you a good heads-up on how to start building a system for yourself. PCAlchemy.com is a store dedicated to HTPC supplies, so you might want to check them out as they have good bundle deals (and sometimes not! Shop around!) on the MCE, MCE Remote, PVR Card and DVD Decoder.

Hope this is helpful to those of you who are looking to start a system build. It will even work for MythTV, you can just drop the MCE remote, get a USB-UIRT (do a Google for it), and drop MCE and install your flavor of Linux.

Good luck!

Re:The IDEAL HTPC is ....

[Anonymous Coward]

Another alternative to windows MCE is http://www.gbpvr.com/gb-pvr. It's free and it's on windows. My setup consist of Hauppauge 150 ($60) and a regular big huge pc (I really want a small one but they are relatively expensive). I think I'll wait for http://news.com.com/AOpen+box+inspired+by+Mac+Mini /2100-1042_3-5885697.html which will be $399 to be my next HTPC

While we're on the subject . . .

[alhaz]

Does anybody know if current CVS of MythTV is usable, and if so, does it still thoroughly suck for ATSC?

I spent days getting 0.18.1 working with my PCHDTV card only to find that the mpeg demuxer is right next door to non-functional and it had a tendency to crash if it accidentally caught wind of an encrypted stream, which are ubiquitous on my local airwaves.

It was a total PITA to use and i was actually more comfortable tuning manually and using mplayer. At least mplayer's demuxer isn't all choppy on an Athlon64-3500.

So i asked around on the irc channel and found out, yeah that's basically the state of things.

Re:While we're on the subject . . .

[nsaspook]

Current CVS of MYTHTV is very stable with the right hardware. I run a non-VIA motherboard(KTxxx types are crash-dummies), nvidia video card (fx5200), hd3000 for ATSC or QAM and two pvr-150mce cards for NTSC. Debian stable or sid for OS running at least 2.6.12 kernel with built-in DVB drivers.

Re:Why PC? Also see Mac Mini PVR

[enrico_suave]

FWIW before the PC haterz form voltron...Mac Mini PVR

There's also a mythTV client/frontend for OSX, somebody has compiled the mythtv backend on to Tiger, but i believe now the issue is drivers for tuner cards *shrug* (or that's the last I heard)

e.

WindowsXP solution

[technopinion]

For those of us who aren't Linux fanboys, BeyondTV is working out very well for me. I have a HTPC set up in my basement, on the other side of the wall from the media room, so that the cables can come through the wall and plug into my A/V receiver and projector. A satellite receiver feeds S-Video into a Hauppauge MPEG-2 encoder in the HTPC box, and it's all controlled by a Harmony universal remote. Video quality from the satellite on about a 100" screen ranges from awesome to so-so (mostly depending on how compressed any given channel is), but Divx/xvid movies look awesome, almost as good as DVD. The other two TVs in the house each have their own cheapo/old computer, nothing particularly powerful, running copies of BeyondTV Link which is a client version of the software, and each has one of SnapStream's Firefly remotes. In all, the system works pretty darn well, it even passes the wife test. Now if only Snapstream had a half-decent music playback solution (their Beyond Media software is, to put it kindly, not a great music player) I'd be super-happy.

"Ultimate" Home Theater PC

[hal2814]

So I guess the PIII 450 with a Radeon TV out card that I plugged into the RF Modulator so I can watch torrents of movies and shows on my 29" Sanyo TV doesn't count? Did I mention it's hooked up to a fancy-schmancy 10-year-old-$200 surround sound system?

Re:"Ultimate" Home Theater PC

[Steve525]

I'm not sure I believe you. I'd be surprised if your PIII 450 can handle decoding most of the torrents available for download. I know my Celeron 466 couldn't handle MP4's (or similar) with greater than 320x240 resolution.

I actually did use my Celeron as a PVR and it almost worked. Encoding was fine (with a hardware encoder), but decoding was a little iffy.

Re:"Ultimate" Home Theater PC

[Broiler]

I have the same setup, only it is a 13" TV and no surround sound. OK so it's not "the same", but it is cheap.

Re:"Ultimate" Home Theater PC

[hal2814]

It does ok. Every now and then there's a show it just can't handle, but even that is usually fixed by killing all other open programs or rebooting. I also use the DiVX player when I can which is MUCH better than Windows Media Player at handling the low system resources. I usually look for the HDTV-LOL files as they play the best on my system.

TiVo isn't a TiVo equivalent for $200

[Mr Guy]

Unless I missed something, which is possible, you don't get free listings with TiVo. The last time I looked, the lifetime package was about another $200.

TiVo does have an advantage in ease of use, and it can win on cost, especially if your content provider includes it with your service,.

It loses on DRM, expandability, and configurability.

You can build a solid HTPC for around the same cost though, with some homework. If you have a computer to scavange, so much the better.

$120 gets you a PVR500 with two tuners, that does encoding on board.
~$100 Large Hard Drive - Hard drive size, like in TiVo, is directly related to how much you want to record and how you want the quality. Unlike with TiVo, on a PC you can use network shares to distribute this as much as you want, and add more if you want conveniently.

The rest is just a mini computer to run the software and do the display. $50 mobo with onboard S/PDIF out, $50 AMD CPU, $50 bucks of RAM, case and PSU depends on whether you want to go with cheap or pretty and quiet, call it another $100, remote control about $20. DVD burner $30.

Average HTPC that holds more, higher quality video than TiVo, about $500, and you end up with complete control of your content (at least, for now).

Re:TiVo isn't a TiVo equivalent for $200

[LWATCDR]

Why have a hard drive on it at all. Just boot from a compact flash card or a usb drive. Use your home server to store the videos.

Re:TiVo isn't a TiVo equivalent for $200

[jonfelder]

I hear a lot of people talking about this, but I've never seen an implementation that works as well as Tivo. Take MythTV for example. This is a group that has tried to make an easy to install linux distro based on knoppix and MythTV.

http://mysettopbox.tv/

They even are working on producing a reference system to make it super easy.

http://mythic.tv/product_info.php?products_id=44

On this page they also detail a whole list of problems with their "reference" system. Some of these issues are minor...others like not being able to watch live tv are in my opinion major.

My point here is that despite what people say, the home brew PVR is not easy to do. I know I've tried. I've also had friends who have tried. Furthermore, many people who claim it's easy to do typically do so by making serious sacrifices. I've seen and experienced a wide array of issues. Some of these issues are related to playback...both audio and video. For example there can be crap on the screen, sometimes the playback stutters, sometimes the audio is out of sync, etc. In the case of my friends who said they got it working, I went over there to watch TV and they had all sorts of issues getting stuff to play (similar to things I experienced).

In the case of the system detailed above (with more people working on it for more time than I'd care to spend) they still lack the basic function of watching live tv.

Contrast with Tivo where you plug it in and it just works. Granted a homebrew HTPC has potential, but as of yet I've not seen that potential realized.

Re:TiVo isn't a TiVo equivalent for $200

[Damvan]

My concern with a system such as this, and what has stopped me from abandoning my DirecTivo, is how does this system change the channel on my DirecTV receiver, let alone 2 receivers? I don't have the option of analog TV where I live, so I must use either a satellite receiver or a digital cable receiver. With my DirecTivo, the tuners are incorporated into the unit. No IR Blaster, extra receivers, etc. A HTPC, 2 satellite receivers with their respective IR Blasters won't look too attractive in my stereo rack.

Re:TiVo isn't a TiVo equivalent for $200

[Anonymous Coward]

or you can just use Windows MCE?

Re:TiVo isn't a TiVo equivalent for $200

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm running MythTV 24x7, and the stories of hair pulling and frustration to get it up and running, and breakage when things get updates are all very, very true.

That said, it is beyond, well beyond awesome:

• The picture (using the PVR-350 card for SD signals, plugged via s-Video into my TV) is incredible - I can even see the Ubuntu console clearly when I have to maintain it!
• the RSS News feed and weather are great to have
• I can store more on the thing than a big-ass stack of videotapes

...and there's no damn click charge. I get my listings for free, and am not restricted from recording or watching them whenever the hell I want.

Further, I can watch live TV on any computer in the house (with the pause and rewind features all PVR owners are so familiar with).

What's not apparent though is another goodie: You're running MythTV 24x7. That means you have a Linux server in the house running all the time to do things like stream your music library to music players and iTunes clients all over the place (with mt-daapd). Need some extra disk for a few minutes? No prob, you've got space on the server!

MythTV is not cheaper than TiVo at the get-in, and if you value your time at all it's no cheaper in any way, but what you're building is so very much greater than what a TiVo provides. And it's in your own control.

Re:TiVo isn't a TiVo equivalent for $200

[ninti]

MythTV has been my Linux trial by fire. I have used Unix for years as a user, and set up a Linux box 5 or 6 times over the last ten years. Each time it has ended in heartbreak. Every time Linux has imploded and become unusable, or I couldn't figure out how to do something that should be trivial and gave up.

I installed Knoppmyth this time around, and admit the initial installation was cake. But then I had to spend countless hours researching and configuring the myraid of little things; playing all my video file formats, get other capture cards working, combine my hard drive space, get the remote control working, setting up streaming audio, getting tv out, get Firefox working and in Myth, securing the web page...the list goes on. For a Linux newbie like me it was extremely tough and time consuming. For a non computer geek or someone with no Unix experience at all, I expect it is nearly impossible.

And with all that, a month later, I turned on the TV to discover Myth crashed and, long story short, took out my entire root partition with it in an apparently unrecoverable manner. Well, that has never happened to me in Windows, at least without an actual major hardware problem. And I thought Linux was more stable (and before anyone can say it, I hadn't changed anything in more than a week when it happened, it was not anything I did.) If I hadn't plowed so much money into this project already, this would have likely been another case of Linux failing me and me giving up. But alas, I'm back up again, if not fully. Now I have to figure out how to make a backup on DVD...add it to the list.

When it works, it works very well. It does crash occasionally. Fine. It's not often enough to be really annoying, and it's just the frontend, it still records in the backend so I don't miss shows just because of it. But it can do stuff Tivo can't. I don't have to fight Tivo to get shows off and onto DVD or another computer, or add more hard drive space. I can play mp3s and videos off the network and do streaming Inet radio. I can put a web browser on it, and plug in just about an Linux application right into the Myth menus. I can access it from the Internet and program it to record from my office. The featureset is excellent; the program guide and recording options put Tivo to shame. The picture quality is very good and only occasionally stutters, mostly just after you change the channel.

This experience has taught me one thing beyond a shadow of a doubt, Linux is not ready for the general public, and I suspect never will be. I want to love Linux, I really do. Free as in freedom and all that, and Myth is good example of why that freedom is valuable. But until every developer on every project treats config files as evil, makes settings easily accessible, writes programs where no one ever goes to the command line, and has some kind of standards czar keeping things consistant between applications, the general public will never be converted, and of course that will never happen.

Re:TiVo isn't a TiVo equivalent for $200

[swv3752]

Easy way to do install MythTV-
Install Mandriva.

Go to Easy URPMI to setup your URPMI sources. The only one needed for MythTV is PLF Free. Use URPMI to install MythTV. Follow instructions from MythTV Wiki docs to setup. It is pretty easy if you have a basic clue in setting up a Linux system.

Almost all sound issues are due to a crappy onboard Sound Chip, avoid generic AC'97 sound like the plague. Realtek Audio chips will be ok. Video issues are usually a horsepower issue. If you are not using a PVR350/250 tuner, you really need something better than 1Ghz for the CPU. You probably need 2Ghz+ if you doing dual cheap tuners. While ATI cards cn be forced to work, it is a lot easier if you use an Nvidia card. (This assumes you are using a TV out, if you hooking up to say a projector with VGA, then just use the onboard video.)

I also recommend a MicroATX board. If money is no object then go for a Pentium M board. Otherwise save money and get a Socket 754 board and stick in a Sempron or Athlon64. Something like an Antec Truepower PWS with the thermal control fans would be nice. The Antec Neopower seems a bit overkill but the modular wiring would be a godsend in some MicroATX cases.

Re:TiVo isn't a TiVo equivalent for $200

[Professor_UNIX]

I personally prefer to split up the backend and frontend system. Dual PVR250 tuners, a 3Ware 8500-4LP with a RAID-5 array of 4x200GB drives. The frontend uses a diskless Via EPIA M10000 motherboard in a book-sized case running the MiniMyth distribution that boots from a PXE server running on the backend. That way I have a nice small quiet system hooked up in the living room and the backend machine can be in a nice big bulky loud case with lots of drives, fans, and a big power supply. 100Mbit ethernet is more than sufficient for feeding up a very good 720x480 MPEG-2 stream.

Re:TiVo isn't a TiVo equivalent for $200

[jonfelder]

Actually, I run linux on the desktop and am a linux system administrator by trade. However, I believe it's linux Multimedia that's not ready for prime time. Other people may think differently, but in my opinion multimedia support is one of linux's worst points. Linux is great if you want to run open office, firefox, thunderbird, etc...and you get to do so in a relatively secure virus/spyware free environment. However, you want to start playing video...recording video, playing DVDs, etc and things get ugly real quick.

What I'm trying to say is don't let your experiences with MythTV tarnish your entire view of linux. I had serious troubles with it and I run linux on the desktop and run linux servers for living.

Re:TiVo isn't a TiVo equivalent for $200

[jonfelder]

Getting MythTV installed is not the hard part. The hard part is getting it to do what I want it do, and get it do it without crashing. That is correcting the over/underscan on my TV, getting the right resolution and frame rate, getting it not to skip, getting the audio to sync, getting brightness, contrast, and black crush correct, etc. etc. etc.

Peoples' mileage may vary, but in my experience getting everything right and having a perfect picture displayed with perfect audio was an overwelming challenge. My parent post is the result of me doing some research because I finally got so fed up with it. I was like, "I'm going to find a working reference system where each component that needed to be purchased was clearly outlined, and then use a Myth based distro to run it." I indeed found that, and noticed that these people...the people who went to the trouble of producing a specific distro and testing and coming up with a specific reference system can't even watch live TV. I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous.

Re:TiVo isn't a TiVo equivalent for $200

[Anonymous Coward]

Not trying to burst your bubble here and your right this wasn't 200 bucks.

I needed a new desktop so I went and bought a dell poweredge server... slapped in a hauppage card and connected some cables then I handed sagetv 70 bucks and now I have a perfect htpc that can watch tv on my 35 inch and have ppl surfing the web on a monitor at a computer desk next to my entertainment center and I have been doing this for a year.

It's not |33t cause its windows based, but it is an HTPC AND a desktop and I love it. Never skips and never will tivo delete my records in 5 days or whatever.

Re:TiVo isn't a TiVo equivalent for $200

[Anonymous Coward]

I am not a computer expert, but even I was able to make my PC into Tivo -- actually better than Tivo. Simply added a TV board (about $60 after rebate) and SageTV software (about $50 with discount). My PC already had DVD burner, so the only thing I needed was extra storage. I bought external hard-drive USB2 enclosure (ABOUT $35) that uses standard IDE drives, but plugs into USB port on the PC. 300GB internal IDE drive was about $40 after rebate. The hard-drive enclosure uses a drawer type of mechanism, so when I needed more space I was able to just buy another hard-disk and use it like a huge removable drive. It is much more efficient to archive shows on such hard-disk instead of on a DVD. But I have the DVD in case I want to make a copy for a friend.

The flexibility I have with the setup is really great.
Plus, it was so easy to put together!

Re:TiVo isn't a TiVo equivalent for $200

[Mr Guy]

That's a valid concern, and this solution isn't for everyone. However, you don't need all that on your stereo rack if you don't want it there, but want the added flexibility to serve movies, music etc that a PC offers. You can put a simple front end by your TV, and put the rest of the stuff where ever you want.

Re:How is it the "ultimate" when it only has 1 tun

[Anonymous Coward]

Dual Tuner PVR? HD?

http://broadband.motorola.com/dvr/dct6412.asp/

Its not perfect, and there are some hiccups... but its easy to use. And you can record 2 shows while watching a previously recorded 3rd...

The HD thing is what kills mythtv for me. There aren't any cable/satellite capable HD=capture cards that I'm aware of. There's just the one OTA (over-the-air) card that may (will?) die when the FCC gets its broadcast flag. ... if anyone knows differently I'm all ears...

If the link is slow ...

[Luscious868]

If the link is slow use the Coral Cache link.

Silverstone Cases Rock!

[shepmaster]

I have a good MythTV setup now, utilizing an old 900 MHz Athlon, a PVR-250MCE, a NVidia GeForce 4MX. It works just fine (requisite note about time versus money here... I have more time than money). The thing I'd really like is to get rid of the tower case. I spraypainted my ugly beige case a nice black, but what I really want is one of these:

http://www.silverstonetek.com/product-case.htm (Scroll to Lascala Series).

These look sooooo nice! Unfortunately, nice == $$ in this case (no pun!). I'd really prefer the LC-11M, as it has the display with the IR receiver built in. A little bit of checking shows that these displays and IR components have LIRC and LCDProc support, so Linux should 'just' work.

Anyone care to buy me one... for testing?

Re:Silverstone Cases Rock!

[repetty]

>> The thing I'd really like is to get rid of the tower case.

Don't be hard your yourself. IMHO their case selection in the project was their big -- really big -- mistake.

--Richard

Re:Silverstone Cases Rock!

[Maximilian]

I don't have the LC-11M but I did buy the LC-11 in silver for my MythTV box and it's amazing. The build quality is top-notch with thick quality aluminum and construction. The only negative I have on the case is that the mATX motherboard layout means that the CPU is right next to one of the case exhaust fans which limits the size of the CPU fan. It meant putting in something a bit noiser than I would have liked but it's running great in the living room!

More Than Just DVR

[TheFlyingGoat]

For everyone that's posting the 'Whats the big deal?' posts, a HTPC is far more than just a DVR. I have mine running XP with Meedio. Once there's a linux alternative that is as flexible as Meedio I'll look into switching.

The DVR capabilities of a HTPC are great, but you get a lot more features without any added cost:

• The ability to download shows and run them from the HTPC, similar to the DVR but without requiring a capture card. Also provides a nice interface to give show/season/episode info.
  
• The ability to load all my movies onto the server (I encode as xvid to save storage). Browse movies by genre, title, etc and have the cover image on screen. No need to load a disk.
  
• Weather info
  
• Emulators. Mine has NES, SNES, Genesis, and N64, but there's many more. I have 2 wireless controllers and can play any game I want, at any time, without having to hunt down the actual cartridge.
  
• Home Automation. You know, controlling lights, thermostat, cameras, etc.
  
• RSS feeds for news, sports scores, etc.
  
• Streaming Shoutcast stations for a wide variety of audio.
  
• Neat tricks like having callerID info pop up onscreen so you don't have to look at the phone itself.
  
• Email. You can read/send via POP/SMTP or Exchange.
  
• Lots more.
  

I'm helping a friend build his right now, and it'll run about $1100 with 600GB of hard drive space. With that he gets a HDTV DVR and everything above. Compare that to the cost of a DVD player and a DVR and it's comparable, but you get far more functionality and flexibility from a HTPC.

Re:More Than Just DVR

[Corporal Dan]

So what are the advantages of Meedio vs. Windows MCE?

Re:More Than Just DVR

[TheFlyingGoat]

I haven't used MCE, but a few reasons popped into my head right away. First, MCE costs at least $100. The cheapest I've seen it for is $112. Meedio Pro, which has the DVR functionality, is $80. If you don't need the DVR stuff it's only $50.

Second, Meedio is EXTREMELY flexible as far as configuration. So far there hasn't been anything I've wanted to do with it that I've not been able to do. There's a large number of themes and plugins to make it easier.

I'm sure people that have used both can give a better answer, but I'd recommend at least trying Meedio if you're building a HTPC. They have a free trial that has no limitations other than a 15 day limit. It's a nice way to see if you like it, and if it will do what you're expecting it to do.

Re:More Than Just DVR

[FreshFunk510]

Dang. Does it do your taxes for you too??

Re:More Than Just DVR

[Corporal Dan]

Well, the money isn't really an issue as it will be a new box so Windows XP ($80) + Meedio ($80) > Windows MCE ($120).

However, the plugin features look really interesting...thanks for the info...

DSD

There are better sources for HTPC info...

[Anonymous Coward]

I've seen tom's being used for HTPC articles on /. before. But fact is there are better more in depth sources of HTPC information online. These sites and software are dedicated to HTPC and all the of the options associated.

Check these out:
http://www.htpcnews.com/

In particular their forums:
http://www.htpcnews.com/forums/index.php

Some great software:
http://www.meedio.com/
http://www.snapstream.com/products/beyondtv/

In response to the question asking if you can build this for under $200? I have a friend that used a 733mhz P2 with a lower end capture card, the two pieces of software above, a firefily remote (http://www.snapstream.com/products/firefly/) and a bit of reading on those forums.

In short he has an HTPC up and running that cost less than $200 CDN and has more tweakability (is that a word?) than most tivos.

A.C.

Pure Digital Path

[bloosqr]

I've been looking into going this route actually not for the sake of having a PC as a TVset-top box but because I think it offers more options than standard receivers, besides the obvious (Universal DVD-ROM drive can play all and new codecs unlike standard dvd players, simple instant digital access to any music libraries, cheap route to HDTV, cheap upgrade to new technologies as they come out).

The main issue I have been having is that currently all receivers except for the really high end ones (meridian, tata) offer only analogue out for the surround channels. That is the dvd is decoded either in the player or in the receiver and you get analogue out from their DAC. If you want to do anything to this signal you end up having to do another A->D->A swap. An obvious example of this is using pro-audio equipment for home theatre use to equalize out room anomalies. People spend tons of money on speakers and , but one of the largest factors in sound is simply the dynamics of the room which can cause peaks and dips depending on what and how your room is arranged. You can purchase an 8 channel 1/3 octave 31 band digital equalizers for pretty cheap (in the grand scheme of things for home theatre) from alesis which would be brilliant to fix these anomalies. Furthermore, you are no longer dependent on the DAC that you happen to get w/ your receiver, but you use whatever DAC you want (and these things aren't really that expensive but pro-audio dacs that are cheap are actually the same DACS that only come in >$3k receivers for instance). I haven't done this yet, but the idea is to use something like VLS (or maybe a hardware decoder solution but that would take a bit of coding) and output it to an ADAT card (basically a digital format that looks like toslink but w/ 8 channels) which then goes into a cheap Alesis equalizer which then goes into the amps. All in all a swanky upgradable preamp glued into a DVD player w/ HD upscaling and pure digital outs and room equalization on a level that simply doesn't exist in any level (even those $10k TATA preamps) all for hopefully about $800 or so. And you get for free everything else you expect for having a PC as your main home theatre box aka universal codec player, upgradable, music center, networkable etc etc.

I haven't actually done this yet I admit but its something I've been toying recently.

Re:Pure Digital Path

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

Creative Soundblaster cards have a "digital out" mode where they produce a 2-channel spdif signal for each pair of speakers (L/R, SL/SR, C/Sub). People knock the soundblasters for two reasons - the DACs tend to suck and they tend to upsample 44.1Khz to 48Khz. If you got all digital, then the DACs don't matter and if you want to play back CDs, you can probably bypass the resampling hardware, especially under linux -- and if you can't you should be able to software upsample to 88.2KHz and then the card itself will not resample it.

Should be a lot cheaper than going with ADAT.

You should also look into BruteFIR and convolver filters to do digital room correction. It is way cheaper than something like the Tact Audio products that do the same thing, just with a slicker and simpler package.

Re:Pure Digital Path

[bloosqr]

I did not realize that (i'm on a mac). Thats exactly the way to go! Those mini 3.5 mm jacks can be spdif digital out? Or are the outputs all via the flexijack digital out? I've been looking around for something like this but the specs have always been a single toslink type digital output which I assume was the undecoded 5.1 signal out. I dont think any of the m-audio cards do this (but maybe i'm mistaken since I didn't notice that the sound blaster of all things does it). I got the idea really because I have a behringer 2496 (basically a $300 1U 2channel 31 band RTA/Equalizer/DAC) as my preamp for stereo use (w/ a pair of active mackies as speakers) and am a big fan of going that route but i'm routing through a computer I may as well equalize in the software as well. Its not hard to be cheaper than tact :) Thanks for the info., if you catch this message could you point me to a link for the sb cards where it says you can get a decoded spdif signal for all the channels separately? I can't seem to find it anywhere.

thanks again!

Re:Pure Digital Path

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

You can dig up the details for the Audigy cards by searching for soundblaster or audigy and "digital DIN" - might need to add "pin-out" in there too.

It looks like the newest X-fi cards don't do it the way the old cards did - maybe the most expensive x-fi does. Creative sells speaker sets that use the digital DIN connector to pipe the digital audio directly to the speakers and apparently they don't work so well with the X-Fi - I think DTS3500 was the model number of one such speaker set.

Re:Pure Digital Path

[bloosqr]

I think thats why I missed it. It mentions its a feature on the audigy 2-4 series but no longer does on the x-fi. I will look into it and see if it does. Ironically, the x-fi has a by-pass for the resampling problem while the audigy card seem not to!

thanks again for the info.

Re:Pure Digital Path

[bloosqr]

I looked into this a bit more. None of the X-FI card currently support it. The DIN connector on the elite pro is a volume control connector of some sort (whatever that means) but its not compatible w/ the DTT speakers. Creative labs apparantly is supposed to respond to users w/ digital speakers at some point. Currently people are modding the digital dtt 3500 speakers to give them selves an analog in. Ironically the X-FI series doesn't have the resampling problem that all the audigy cards do that you alluded to.

Why all the work?

[oosid]

I just set up a media room that supports remote everything via bluetooth kb and mouse, or elgato remote, two game consoles, Karaoke, Projection or small monitor, 5.1 surround, Wi-Fi, CPU is totally silent, exports converted movies to my PSP, manages all of my music, and photos, manages video collection, edits video, supports all digital AV file types, makes custom cd/DVD's, looks, sweet, my 5 year old can use it, and I can plug in all of my legacy AV components. I did all of it for about $2000 dollars, and didn't have to build a thing. What's the problem? Mac Mini + DVD burner Ceiling mount projector Elgato EyeTV 500 (free over the air HD + unencrypted digital cable) PVR Yamaha AV reciever 17inch flat screen monitor 2 fat firewire drives Monitor switch maudio usb sound card for surround PSP Ware

Re:Why all the work?

[Anonymous Coward]

I tried to to the same thing, but what disappoints me is that Apple is playing evil here. WiFi or wireless netowrk? I think the last one since you can only share your internet connection using WEP! No WAP internet sharing for Mac OS Tiger! What is apple doing here? Simple, Apple is trying to sell you the Airport Express or Extreme. Come on!

Mod this guy troll

[rdoger6424]

Stop trying to do stuff like that. We know what site it links to. Look:
with 7he :work, or [goat.cx]
stupidity is not an excuse

*REAL* Home Theater for Rich Kids :)

[Anonymous Coward]

Buy the local 20-plex and live in the manager's office.

Don't tell me you weren't thinking it :)

You just know some /.'er is reading this from a theater manager's office.

Never considers videophiles

[cexshun]

I see these all the time and the hype is amazing. Yet, the more I try to consider building one, the less reasonable it is for myself. Frankly, I have not found a video card capable of producing high enough quality video for videophiles or a/v heads. And 6 channel on board sound? Hardly tolerable.

The big and bad units are expensive for a reason. A DIY PVR just will not compare to a decent mid-range unit.

I can't remember the link, but there was a site that had screenshot comparisons of all the main tuner cards with pros-cons. Frankly, they all looked like crap. I would never put the output stream through my HD projector.

So, to answer the question quite bluntly:
Hype aside, is it really possible to build a PC that is quiet and does everything that a high-end remote-controlled set-top box can do?
No, not even close. While the software for it is there, PC hardware is hardly capable of producing anything remotely comparable to high end . Comparable to a budget model or upper end of the low quality units? Sure! The joy of DIY? Yep! High end? Hardly...

Re:Never considers videophiles

[Moofie]

Every night, I go to sleep thanking my lucky stars that I am neither an audiophile nor a videophile.

Good enough is good enough for me. You go ahead with your $2000/foot virgin silver de-oxy-ozonated hand rolled +2 vs. lousy sound speaker cables.

I'll use some nice heavy gauge lamp cord and be just fine.

Re:Never considers videophiles

[Anonymous Coward]

I already moderated already, otherwise I'd post under my username. Anyway, have you tried using DVD software like TheaterTek or ZoomPlayer with ffdShow filters? You can't get a better picture with any STB DVD player, period. It's absolute night and day difference when I compare the two.

Also, PC games on the HD projector are awesome (106" screen). There are many reasons to use an HTPC -- I happen to use a ReplayTV for SD content, and a 6412 Dual-tuner HD DVR for HD content because they're much more user-friendly. But to claim that an HTPC can't produce high end video or audio is ludicrous. They're usually used because they can produce the highest quality.

Re:Never considers videophiles

[kidcharles]

Go with the lamp cord. Boutique audio cables are separated only by the particular electrical phenomena that they use to justify their rediculous prices, phenomena that are real but have no effect whatsoever for audio. Here's a short list:

-skin effect losses (real but completely irrelevant for audio frequencies, i.e. 20 kHz)

-directionality (The microscopic crystal structure of the copper has some effect on currents running through it. Audible? No freaking way. Unless you are an idiot and put a diode inline between your components, there is no such thing as cable directionality.)

-memory effect in dielectrics (Real and inportant for electrolytic capacitors, but again completely irrelevant for audio speaker cables)

Though I'm an electrical engineer, it is my opinion that the mechanical aspects of the speakers you use have the greatest effect of the sound rather than the electronics. You get diminishing returns from better and better electronic components, while the design of the speakers and enclosures can color the sound significantly.

Re:Never considers videophiles

[Moofie]

I know that. YOU know that. The audiophiles? Those guys is crazy.

: )

Re:Never considers videophiles

[TheFlyingGoat]

I can't figure out if you're trolling or just uninformed. If you select the right components and software you can get far better quality with a HTPC than AV equipment for a given price.

Any of the video cards that use the HDMI connection or have component out (most of the Radeon cards) will produce excellent results. I'm using a GF6200 with component out running at 1776x1000 resolution (to compensate for overscan) and when I play uncompressed HD video it actually looks better than the component output of my HDTV decoder box.

As for your audio statement, that's just plain stupid. Use the coaxial or optical SPDIF output right off the motherboard and you bypass all of the crappy audio in a computer system. By running digital directly to your receiver, you get the best quality sound your receiver can handle. Far better and cheaper than running shielded audio cables from your high-end DVD player to your receiver.

Unmatched results (unless you own a scaler) by using ffdshow to scale your DVD's to HD quality in realtime. It sounds like you just need to do more research on the subject.

Re:Never considers videophiles

[lkeagle]

** it is my opinion that the mechanical aspects of the speakers you use have the greatest effect of the sound rather than the electronics. **

Too true... Although another interesting aspect that most people (even audiophiles) don't realize, is that when you start diving into the realm of truly professional high-power loudspeakers, sound quality drops through the floor. The loudspeakers you listen to at just about any concert or movie theater rely completely on digital crossover and equalizer processing in order to compensate for their ridiculously horrid natural response. These crossover processing boxes can cost upwards of $10k to $20k. Plus to realize their full potential, you need to buy seperate amplifier components, for which the subwoofers can draw upwards of 3000W per speaker!

Just proof again that the audiophiles rarely think about systems outside of their little niche. For the cost of some audiophile setups, you could run an entire concert venue.

Re:How is it the "ultimate" when it only has 1 tun

[Jherek Carnelian]

The HD thing is what kills mythtv for me. There aren't any cable/satellite capable HD=capture cards that I'm aware of. There's just the one OTA (over-the-air) card that may (will?) die when the FCC gets its broadcast flag. ... if anyone knows differently I'm all ears...

There are couple of cable (QAM256) capable cards with recent support in Linux and Myth.
Here's a thread on the topic.

But can it do Component Video Capture?

[jchernia]

Until they come out with a video card that can capture Analog HD Video, it's not interesting. Yes there are $3,000 cards that can do it, but why doesn't the AVIVO technology from ATI? They've got the H.264 in hardware and 16x PCIe, so the bandwidth should be manageable.

www.byopvr.com can do it

[RedR]

Heya, I was a bit let down with this and the hardware and software selection that Tom's went after on this. I've had much better results avoiding Windows MCE by using SageTV, or GB-PVR or BeyondTV, or for those real diehards, MythTV. Some of the complaints that Tom's had are very easily solved by going with hardware that's slightly larger and more standard than the micro or mini ATX stuff. Anyway check out byopvr.com, they've got some really great how to's on building your own HTPC on the cheap or all out. Enjoy, RedR

Re:How is it the "ultimate" when it only has 1 tun

[Anonymous Coward]

Er, sorry, actually QAM is here. Poke around the forum for a few more short threads on the topic.

digital or analog?

[raygundan]

I assume you were looking at a review of analog capture for standard-definition television, which in a lot of cases is not so hot in the PC world. Digital capture, however, is better. If you use an HDTV capture card and a DVI or HDMI output to your set, the video will be as perfect as the transmission, and on par with anything else you can buy. Onboard sound is fine, as long as it has a digital out. (You may have to scrounge for a soundstorm mobo, though)

This is the one area where HTPCs had an edge-- I had a PVR capable of recording HDTV for about $450 in parts (old PC + capture card) quite a while back. When it was built, there were no available HD PVRs, and when the HD Tivo eventually arrived, it was $1000.

That price advantage is definitely gone, though. Most cablecos now offer a HD PVR for a small monthly rental fee.

Re:digital or analog?

[cexshun]

Quite correct. I have stopped my research so perhaps the digital units have improved. However, being a HTPC, watching/timeshifting television is not it's only function. I don't care what card you're using, a DVD will look nowhere near as good as a decent unit.

A HTPC will give DVD quality roughly equal to that of a PS2 even with digital HD outs. For most people, this is good enough. But when you're someone who complains that a projector has 'poor blacks', then this will not cut it.

I'm not saying a DIY HTPC is crap. I'm saying it's not high-end and the article implies it is.

Re:digital or analog?

[raygundan]

Agreed, and I hadn't thought much about using the thing as a DVD player. I'd be surprised if there isn't a way to go pure-digital on that, though-- straight from the DVD's bitstream to the TV via a digital input. I'm not sure how a digital source can deliver "poor blacks" to your set, unless it was defective.

It would still be much easier to just use a standalone DVD player. For me, it was solely about being able to record HDTV shows, with bigscreen PC gaming thrown in as a secondary benefit.

Re:digital or analog?

[bloosqr]

I dont think thats what he means.. most of the "high end" dvd players and receivers do upsampling so while you do want the pure digital out for video (which does exist via dvi/hdmi) what you also want is something that makes standard DVD look better than it does on your HDTV. I'd like to see how standard software upscalers fare against hardware upscalers. Given the processing power of most cpus I wouldn't be surprised if it could be done pretty easily in software.

1 GB for a HTPC?

[MerlinTheWizard]

Doesn't really go with the "hype aside" comment they make. You don't need no frecking 1 GB for such a project. Come on, 1 GB is overkill even for most desktop users, except for the "heavy-users". Half of that is perfectly good enough. You can use a bigger hard drive, though. So for the money saved with 512 MB less, I'd put in a 400 GB HD instead, or something like that. Even the suggested processor is largely overkill. A Pentium M 2.13 GHz? It's practically like the most expensive processor you can find, except for the server-oriented ones. Holy crap. They must be kididing us, really. My own HTPC for the moment has a P3/800 with 512 MB and it fits the bill royally.

Re:1 GB for a HTPC?

[bigjnsa500]

That's still too much. My 100mhz Tivo can do all that and then some.

Re:1 GB for a HTPC?

[MerlinTheWizard]

Oh really. Can your Tivo play XVID/VIDX/DVD videos in full screen in 640x400 or over? You must be smoking something I don't care to know about... ;-)

An iBook?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why couldnt I just buy an iBook w/ a big hdd and dvd-r and then install appropriate software?

I dont really get these things.

Nexus-S card is the best

[Anonymous Coward]

The best systems that I have seen, that run on a computer, are those that run with the Nexus-S DVB satellite card. Too bad that most of them only work for free - as in, there is no way to get it work with a real account, therefore forcing you to have free pay-per-view and all the channels for free.

RitzDVB is a good software package

Meedio - seconded

[tacokill]

I second your nomination of Meedio. It's a solid front end. Read my previous comment on Meedio here.

Re:How is it the "ultimate" when it only has 1 tun

[Anonymous Coward]

It's only got one tuner because that's all the case would allow. MythTV allows for as many turners as you have PCI slots as well as multiple Backend's and Frontends. It also has support for firewire capture over a cable box so if you get 3 firewire cards with 4 firewire ports each you have 12 tuners :).

Besides they could have just as easily gotten a Hauppage PVR 500 which is a dual tuner capture card and used it.

building the...

[KillShill]

ultimate swiss bank account.

one

page

at

a

time

Pointless

[bigjnsa500]

Nice article, but I stopped reading after the M$ word. Sorry, but my trusty Series2 Tivo and Phillips DVP642 can do all that at a fraction of the cost of his equipment.

I even convinced my wife this was a good idea

[limabone]

I can't stress enough how cool a decent HTPC can be. It's so much more than just recording TV.
* I put all my kids DVDs on the box so I don't need to swap disks out.
* I put all my music CD's on there (can use playlists with SageTV or whatever you choose to use)
* I have Mamewah installed and an X-Arcade controller and a bunch of old roms and geek out 80's arcade style.
* I pull my digital photos from another PC in the house over the network so I can torture visitors with endless pictures of my kids sleeping in the crib.

I have a big programmable remote that handles everything in the room (dvd, PC, TV, lights) which makes it pretty easy for my wife to use, and she even admits it was a good idea so I can now tell her how much I paid ;)

Remote Control

[LordMyren]

I'm hoping we see some new alternatives for remote controls crop up. I'm still using two ATI TV Wonder remotes and a pile of USB recievers (all first gen) to control my medianet. The range is beyond pathetic, the control pad is 4-directional (what I wouldnt give for analog), the remote is huge but it does have decent linux support. And its RF. The advantage is that the remotes and dongles were $6 a pop on ebay and hus cheap enough that I can litter the house with dongles for decent coverage.

I'd like to see Zigbee or Bluetooth solutions crop up. But I'll take anything better if its at a good price. People dont want to pay $100 for a damned remote control, there's little reason for it.

Re:Remote Control

[enrico_suave]

I assume you've heard of SnapStream's FireFly remote it too is RF based... decent range. *shrug* I like it better than remote wonder 2 imho.

rampy

Re:Remote Control

[Xenna]

I agree, a decent range rf remote control would be wonderful. I have my 'htpc' hidden away in my server room. The A/V signal is fed to a modulator that mixes the signal onto the TV cable so I can watch it on all TV's in the house.

That leaves controlling the system. Fortunately I own two squeezeboxes ( http://www.slimp3.com/ ). I created a plugin for the slimserver that allows me to use the squeezebox remote to control my htpc.

All of the fun and none of the ugly boxes... ;)

X.

Re:Remote Control

[LordMyren]

I'm waiting for the M-5000u to come out before I buy a media player box. Although I suspect the morons will botch what would be an almost perfect media player by omitting wifi. It does have an internal hard drive, and I have enough extra OpenWRT boxes lying around that this isnt a HUGE problem, but its still an awfully glaring omission.

Hope you like the Squeezebox. I'm considering getting one while I wait.
-Myren

Re:Remote Control

[Anonymous Coward]

Squeezeboxes are great especially if you like to tinker...

What they dont' tell you

[goombah99]

A DVD does not contain more information content than the number of pixels on an SVGA screen. An HD-TV broadcast contians less information than an XGA screen. Thus going to higher resolution screens not only does not increase performance. Actaully the reverse is true it degrades it. When you go to higher resolution projectors you either have to use a subset of their pixels, which proportioanlly throws away the majority of the lumens, or you have put up with the ugly and noticable artifacts of interpolation (jagged edges on fast moving high contrast edges, and the poor rendering of fog and smoke). Additionally, all else being equal, denser pixel projectors waste more of the surface area to the dead zones around the pixels and also tend to have more variation and lower contrast.

Now there are two important exceptions to the above statements. First, generally all else is not equal. When you pay buttwads more for a high end high pixel projector you almost always get upgraded components everywhere else. Better color control, better contract control, better uniformity, better interpolation, .... thus to comapre a cheap SVGA to one of the higher end machines is not an even handed comparison that will allow you compare the effects of resolution alone. Second, while the information content of a DVD is indeed equal to the number of pixels on a 800x600 projector, the aspect ratio is not. Thus the optimal projector for 16x9 movies is WGA and the optimal projector for 4x3 is SVGA.

My guess is that most people are best off buying a WGA projector for two reasons, first it's optimal for wide screen movies and adequate for full frame movies. But more importantly, manufacturers are not treating WGA as a low-end product like they do SVGA. They may be putting in the higher wuality components into their WGA and WXGA projectors. And it's those components, not the useless improved resolution that you want to buy.

Fo me all I'm interested in are DVDs but many folks are keen on HD (By the time HD becomes mainstream your current pojector will have bunred out anyhow so need to look ahead in your current purchase). And for them a WXGA or XGA projector is the right choice. For everyone else WGA or SVGA.

Things to look for in the following order of importance are 0) DLP 1) quiet 2) RGB or digital inputs 3) contrast 4) lumens 5) darkness control 6) color fidelity 7) optical, not digital keystone correction 8) a short throw range for most people's rooms also reuires a sharp offest angle (see keystone correction above) 9) some zoom 10) ability to work upsidedown

If you want to disagree with me just fine but make sure you dont claim there is actually more information on a DVD than an SVGA/WGA can support

Re:What they dont' tell you

[miltimj]

Wow, you really have no clue. No, I take that back.. you know enough to be dangerous and give bad advice. (For starters, there's no such thing as "WGA".. perhaps you mean WVGA (854x480)?) Allow me to elaborate:

An HD-TV broadcast contians less information than an XGA screen.

HDTV is considered either 720p or 1080i (and in the future, higher resolutions such as 1080p, etc). 720p is WXGA, which is more pixels than XGA. So both variants of HD resolution contain more information than an XGA screen.

Thus going to higher resolution screens not only does not increase performance. Actaully the reverse is true it degrades it. When you go to higher resolution projectors you either have to use a subset of their pixels, which proportioanlly throws away the majority of the lumens, or you have put up with the ugly and noticable artifacts of interpolation (jagged edges on fast moving high contrast edges, and the poor rendering of fog and smoke). Additionally, all else being equal, denser pixel projectors waste more of the surface area to the dead zones around the pixels and also tend to have more variation and lower contrast.

WTF?! Denser resolution projectors are better assuming you have a decent deinterlacer and scaler. Sure, if you feed it through a crappy processor you're going to get crap. But I can say from experience that the exact same DVDs through my 720p projector look quite a bit better than my old 480p projector. The real area that it shines is HD, but I'll get to that later...

A good deinterlacer practically eliminates any "jaggies", and a good scaler will blend the pixels together and interpolate the information to the point that the resulting image looks much better than the original. Upconverting DVD players exist for a reason, and it's not just marketing hype.. it works (better picture), even on WVGA displays.

How does higher resolution imply "more variation" (whatever that's supposed to mean), and lower contrast? They have very little to do with each other. Many CRT projectors are 1080p+ and have amazing contrast (not even comparable with most 480p digital PJs).

Second, while the information content of a DVD is indeed equal to the number of pixels on a 800x600 projector, the aspect ratio is not... But more importantly, manufacturers are not treating WGA as a low-end product like they do SVGA. They may be putting in the higher wuality components into their WGA and WXGA projectors. And it's those components, not the useless improved resolution that you want to buy.

Again, DVD is equal to WVGA (480p), not SVGA. I can assure you that 480p projectors are considered "low end", and that higher-quality components are not in them. About the best 480p DLP projector you can buy right now is around $1500. The cheapest 720p DLP is about $2500 - I'll let everyone guess which has the better internal components. Secondly, increased resolution is not useless, and is, in fact, the most important factor (assuming everything else is generally equal, as you stated that caveat as well, and it's important to note).

Fo me all I'm interested in are DVDs but many folks are keen on HD (By the time HD becomes mainstream your current pojector will have bunred out anyhow so need to look ahead in your current purchase)

Perhaps we need a newsflash, but HD is most certainly mainstream right now. I live in an average-sized metropolitan area and can get every OTA channel in HD, and another dozen or so cable channels in HD. At least half of the TVs in the Big Box stores are HD capable. You're missing out immensely without HDTV (though of course, if you don't know what you're missing, carry on.. just don't say there's not much of a difference or it's not commonplace because it is).

Things to look for in the following order of importance are 0) DLP 1) quiet 2) RGB or digital inputs 3) contrast 4) lumens 5) darkness control 6) color fidelity 7) optical, not digital keystone correction 8) a short

Re:What they dont' tell you

[modemboy]

"If you want to disagree with me just fine but make sure you dont claim there is actually more information on a DVD than an SVGA/WGA can support"

Ok fine, I'll claim there is less. You also said:
"Second, while the information content of a DVD is indeed equal to the number of pixels on a 800x600 projector"

How does a DVD with a resolution of 720x482 equal the number of pixels on an 800x600 screen?

Other than that good info, thanks.

Re:What they dont' tell you

[goombah99]

picky picky :-) these resolutions come in certain ranges and things are not exact of course. just finding the closest one. also as it turns out horizontal resolution is not an exact science because it's not actually pixelated but is a continuous signal with finite bandwidth. and odd details of interlacing adds some wobblyness to things too.

Re:What they dont' tell you

[goombah99]

You are obviously mistaking the concept of image sharpening, and image scaling with resolutuion.

Here's an example that may help. If you have an image on screen in photoshop you can apply certain "sharpening" filters that distort the image in ways that make it crisper and give the illusion of more resolution. Of course nothing has actually been added to the picture. it's still the same size on your screen and occupies the same number of pixels it did before. it just "looks" sharper to your eye.

Now imagine that this screen I speak of was in fact the projector and it was say, an svga, projector. The image on this would now look sharper to you. But it is still 800x600. You did not need to go to larger number of pixels to obtain this "sharpening" effect.

Now imagine you scale this image. Now you are increasing the number of pixels but you are not changing the resolution. It's still the same as it was at 800x600. It just occupies more pixels. But it has exactly the same resolution as before.

However when you do that scaling, since it was not an interger multiple of the original there was some aliasing that took place. If you looked at it it will look like crap. So you have to blur the image slightly to "anti-alias" it. This also makes other rough artifacts of the scaling and sharpening appear to vanish. But they only vanish at the expense of actually reducing the resolution below that of the original 800x600 image.

In fact if you were to compress this new image it would actually compress to a data size smaller than the original DVD because the operations you applied actually deleted some of the dynamic range of the pixels and the distortions you introduced were all mathematically predictable. Thus you have in effect reduced the information content of what is on the screen by the scaling and sharpening process.

The link to the "example" you provided in another post really proves all these point. As you can see by looking at it, this is just an example of this photoshop effect. the before and after images have the same number of pixels. If those were SVGA sized images then you have proven in fact that you can sharpen an svga image.

Now you might ask the following if it were really possible to increase resolution over the native source size then why dont all video monitors do this too? Or more to the point do you want your video monitor filtering everything you send it or would it be better to apply those filters only when you want them in the computer and let the display show things as the computer wants. Obviously the latter.

the bottom line is if you start with 800x600 worth of information at a certain dynamic range then you can't increase the resolution by adding more pixels. you can sharpen it if it's blurred in some way but you don't need more pixels for that. 800x600 is sufficient.

Doh! Just bought......

[martin_b1sh0p]

After going back and forth FOREVER I just bought a Tivo last night. Should have waited one more day and I would have had a little more information from Tom's Hardware.

If it weren't for the $150 rebate Tivo has going on right now, I'd probably still be undecided. Heck I even submitted an Ask Slashdot that got rejected trying to get an idea of how other ppl decided which/what to go with.

I looked at MCE (expensive), MythTv (Free but a pain to setup), Tivo (Montly fees), standalong units (Sony, Toshiba, but also expensive), SageTv (not free but easy to setup), etc, etc.

I would have went with MythTv in a heartbeat but because I don't have a spare PC laying around it would have still cost me around $500 to build one. And with Tivo only being $50 I finally went with Tivo. I figure by the time the monthly fees add up to $500 (about 3 years) I'll be switching out everything anyway because I'll be going to HDTV.

Why it has to be a PC

[goombah99]

You can get a great digital projector, receiver, speakers, and DVD player off of eBay, all reliable Japanese products, for about $1,000.

Why enforce unreasonable requirements upon the system such as "it must be a PC."?

this has a really simple techincal answer. DVD players, by law, cannot put out digital quality signals. Thus S-video is much lower resolution than RGB or DVI. S video has the resolution of a TV set and DVDs have about 4 to 16 times more infomration content that you cant access except through your PC.

The workaround quasi solution is component video output. It's still a notch down from RGB but it's better than S-video. Cheap DVD players and DLP projectors don't have these.

Re:Why it has to be a PC

[miltimj]

Thus S-video is much lower resolution than RGB or DVI. S video has the resolution of a TV set and DVDs have about 4 to 16 times more infomration content that you cant access except through your PC.

Which "TV set"? Not an HDTV. What do you mean by 4 to 16 times more information than you can access? It displays natively at 480p, so any EDTV or HDTV display will be able to display the entire content that resides on a DVD player. Higher res displays will simply make it look better with good deinterlacing and scaling.

The workaround quasi solution is component video output. It's still a notch down from RGB but it's better than S-video. Cheap DVD players and DLP projectors don't have these.

..and RGB is a step down from DVI & HDMI. You're right that it's better than component, but you're absolutely wrong that DVD players and projectors don't have component inputs. I've owned a $80 DVD player and $600 projector that both had component connections. You need to stop spreading inaccurate info and FUD. [sigh]

MythTVr system

[TheDarkener]

I'm actually in the process of pitching "MythTVr" - a mini-itx pre-built solution, based on MythTV. I'm up for comments and suggestions!!

http://www.mythtvr.com

- Jordan

Re:MythTVr system

[LWATCDR]

You do know that if it can play and or rip DVDs you may be in for a bit of trouble...

Re:MythTVr system

[modemboy]

Not for no $800. You have what maybe $400 of hardware there. Up the specs or drop the price. And why use a pvr-250 when a pvr-500 gives you dual capture for about the same price...

Re:MythTVr system

[Anonymous Coward]

PVR500 drivers suck on Linux.

Re:MythTVr system

[Anonymous Coward]

For the price, I'd like to see a dual layer DVD burner in there... Dual tuners would also be a good BTO option...

Looks interesting... Wish it cost about $100 less and that I even had that much to spend right now... would be ideal for some friends/family too...

Good luck

Some thoughts

[blackmonday]

I have an upcoming project, and I'm deciding on what equipment to get. I want HDTV, and I would like to record it, just like standard TV. The HDTV PVR from DirecTV costs 700 bucks.

My choices are: Pay DirecTV, or build a system. The best HDTV card for over the air seems to be the ATI HDTV Wonder. It is recognized by the latest version of XP Media Center Edition, and can record the HDTV feed. But, you need a Direct X 9.0 compatible video card to run the ATI card at all.

For those of you sticking with MythTV, that's cool. It doesn't easily get TV listings, whereas the MCE solution gives you everything in the box, and there's no DRM. I say again, NO DRM.

If you guys have a better solution for me I'd like to hear it, but I'd like to record HDTV, and I don't know of anyone else, including Beyond TV, supporting HDTV yet.

Why did Tom's Hardware choose MCE? Simple, its a great product. Read the online reviews, I haven't seen a bad review yet.

Make WAFFLES while watching your divx movies

[cyclingargonaut]

Sooo cool.

Enclosure Pain

[renehollan]

I can empathize regarding the pain associated with the enclosure.

I'm looking to make a small Via nano-ITX MythTV silent client box in a Silverstone LC-08 case and have run into difficulties between the mobo and the case -- an earlier thread on the issue is here. Unlike other designs, this has HD MPEG2 decoding hardware with a low power budget.

Basically, Via changed the mobo layout at the last minute and it no longer fits in the LC-08 case. Silverstone supposedly will have new cases ready this month (October '05), but the new design will spec a fan, wheras the old design was completely fanless (using a heatblock to transfer heat to the top of the case).

Re:How is it the "ultimate" when it only has 1 tun

[GWBasic]

To me, the purpose of HTPC is to allow for viewing videos downloaded over the internet, and/or to play PC games on a TV. In addition, it allows for easy integration of online music streaming services like Rhapsody into a home theater. Every other week or so I end up hooking my laptop up to my TV to watch something over the internet from my comfy couch. In addition, a HTPC, as demonstrated by Tom's Hardware, would be ideal for the downloadable movie services that we keep hearing about.

Yes, now you too can throw away half your video!

[Trixter]

99% of all "build your own home theater PC" articles think that interlacing is something to discard or throw away. Do that with actual video material (not film, but real video) and you lose half the temporal information. I don't care how much you post-process, you can't get back fluid motion if you threw it away at some point in the pipeline. Everything looks like a 30fps "computer video".

For the uninformed, true interlaced video contains 50 (PAL) or 60 (NTSC) *different* images per second. Don't believe me? Do this test:

- Videotape a live sporting event with lots of motion
- Watch the videotape on a real television (not your viewfinder, not a computer -- a real TV)
- Dump that video using your favorite home-grown MythTV or whatever box
- Watch the final end video on a real television

If it looks "stuttery" or "weird", then congratulations, you've just mangled your video.

High Wuality Digitial Signal!

[Anonymous Coward]

> They may be putting in the higher wuality components into their WGA and WXGA projectors. And it's those components, not the useless improved resolution that you want to buy.

I dunno about that. The last time I got some "high wuality" parts, it didn't turn out so good...

Here is a gal that can show you how to do it.

[WindBourne]

Wendy seem to have no problems

Here's a clue for you

[goombah99]

BZZZT sorry sir but you cant put 10 pounds of dog poop in a 5 pound bag.

You get more than roughly 360,000 pixels out of a DVD. Therefore no matter how hard you try you can't increase the resolution. You can have an infinitely dense pixel array but there's not going to be more than 360,000 pixels worth of information there. The only thing interpolation can do is smooth it. But to smooth it in space requires it also to smooth it in time (because of interlacing). As result interpolation ALWAYS neccessarily must decrease the resolution. this is just math. it's not something to argue about. you cant make something blurry and keep the same resolution. period.

So learn some information theory and convolution theory and come back later.
thank you for playing.

By the way If you like blurry then you can achieve a similar result just by defocusing the projector. It's just a different kind of interpolation that does not blur in time. Maybe you don't like that? well either way more pixels != more resulution. But more pixels+interpolation means blurring.

Re:Here's a clue for you

[miltimj]

Wow. It's quite obvious you've never experienced the difference between a progressive scan 480p DVD player, and a good upconverting 720p DVD player. Otherwise you'd realize your statement is nonsense.

It sounds great in theory that you can't make it look any better, but that's just not the way it is in the real world. So perhaps you can see for yourself (as you obviously don't have the various equipment to compare for real, or you wouldn't be saying what you are), see the following link:

Post-processing with FFDShow

The comparisons are purely a result of interpolation, nothing more or less.

Re:Here's a clue for you

[miltimj]

By the way, you may need to use IE to see the mouseover effects - it doesn't seem to work in Firefox.

The way I did it

[Displaced Cajun]

Ahanix D-Vine 5, Athlon 2400+, Asus A7N8X-E Deluxe, 2 Kingston 512 Megs Hyper Memory in Dual Channel configuration, 128 Meg PNY GeForce 6200 AGP, Maxtor 200Gig Ultra Series 7200, Hauppauge WinTV 500-MCE, Linksys WMP54G Wireless-G, Beyond TV 3.7.4, Beyond Media 1.1, Firefly Remote.
Its about $750 total cost, and the near future will be another dual tuner, but right now, I'm recording just about 6 shows a night in primetime (2 per hour) and watching them at my own time. So far, I'm very happy with this system.

chill dude.

[Anonymous Coward]

if you are using S-video on an HD TV you wasted your money. a NCST TV has a resolution of around 320x400 on a good day. a DVD has enough infomation to fill out about 720x480 pixels non-interlaced. Depending on the TV the dynamic range of a DVD singal is higher than the TV contrast range. put it all together and that is 4 to 16 times more information in the DVD.

        As I said "Cheap" dvd players don't have component video. You paid $80 for a DVD player--that's pretty expensive. And what do you mean "FUD" there's no fud in my statements and everything I said was accurately qualified. And chill dude; over reacting a bit today aren't we?

Curious...

[mgahs]

I'm curious why we have these stories anyway...

"Ultimate Home Theater PC"
"The Best Portable Laptop"
"Portable Music Player Roundup"

It seems like these stories have a shelf-life of about three to six months, before it's obsolete due to something newer being on the market.

Just me babbling...

CableCard

[WalletBoy]

Does anyone know of any HTPC setups where someone can plug in a CableCard from their Cable Co. and capture digitally from that instead of using a tuner card?

Re:CableCard

[enrico_suave]

"Does anyone know of any HTPC setups where someone can plug in a CableCard from their Cable Co. and capture digitally from that instead of using a tuner card? "

There isn't one... it's a mythical unicorn.

There isn't a PCI card that'll get the "approval" of the cablecard cartel/certification because the resultant content *has* to be locked down/DRM'd/inaccessible (I mean that's their thinking/policy not mine)

I'd be all over it. There's rumors that Windows Vista MCE will someone have the DRM/sandboxing capable of getting a cablecard implementation certifiable, but that's almost like cutting off your fair use to spite your face er... or something.

so short answer is no... no such cablecard pci/pci/express card in existance for PC.

There are some kludges that sometimes work depending on cable company/geography/solar alignment surrounding use of firewire port to PC and making the PC look like a DVHS deck. 5c flags are enabled/enforced though.

There's also QAM 256 tuning (see PCHDTV card for linux or Dvico Fusion 5 lite QAM/ATSC tuner card) which will let you view unencrypted digital cable channels including HDTV ones... but it's a crapshoot as to what's encrypted or not at the head end... in general the broadcast HDTV stations are unencrypted and "tunable"/demodulatable (lol! is that a word) and premium stations like HBOHD/ESPNHD DIscoveryHD are encrypted... But some people get luck or some cableco's are sloppy/ambivalent *shrug* YMMV!

E.

I wouldn't use MythTV

[Tourney3p0]

I tried MythTV for about 6 months. It averaged maybe 2 crashes a month, where the backend would just die. I did a lot of pausing and rewinding, so the crashes normally made me miss at least 15 minutes of whatever I was watching.

A TV should not crash.

Mine's Better

[billstr78]

I prefer the ATX form factor, SageTV and Haupagge TV Tuner combination in my own homebrew PVR.

Short story: they tried and failed

[Anonymous Coward]

After running through probably $3000 worth of components, breaking a few and finding that others were useless, they gave up.

Re:Short story: they tried and failed

[The Wooden Badger]

And the thing that gets me is how almost every bit of their hassle had to do with choice of case. If they got a different case they probably could have used all of the original equipment. Sure it would have been slightly taller, but they would have been able to do it. They could have even had room to put in another card or two. The other thing that killed me is the test with the AMD set up mentions only needing about 10% of the CPU's full potential for most of the HTPC's regular duties and the Pentium-M set up had the heat problems at a 100% CPU load. Sure it's not a bad idea to test it to its limits before recommending the thing, but to eliminate the choice because it has problems that might not ever happen under the use it's intended for is dumb.

ReplayTV

[meehawl]

I looked at MCE (expensive), MythTv (Free but a pain to setup), Tivo (Montly fees), standalong units (Sony, Toshiba, but also expensive), SageTv (not free but easy to setup), etc, etc.

Your biggest sin of omission was not looking at ReplayTV.

Re:ReplayTV

[martin_b1sh0p]

I did (that's part of the "etc, etc"), they are all out of stock according to their site. At least they were last night. Also, there were a few features (mainly the way I can use wifi with Tivo and how it handles programming over the web) that were different between them that swayed me towards Tivo.

dude you still don't get it

[Anonymous Coward]

I've actually published research papers in the field of image enhancement. Sorry to say this, but I have to because you are acting so authoritative: Everything you say is bullshit. the original poster is 100% correct. you haven't the slightest notion of what you speak.

yeah sure you can image enhance a DVD. that does not increase the resolution. it just means the original signal was in crude but accurate sense out of focus. that can be deblurred because the information is avaible by blind deconvolution.

but when you are done you have the same number of pixels you started with.

if you can deblur an SXGA projector you can in principle deblur an SVGA and the resolution of the SVGA will actually be higher than the SXGA as the original poster claimed.

Re:dude you still don't get it

[miltimj]

Unbelievable. Where did I say that you're actually gaining more pixels? I'm saying that interpolating (i.e. intelligently guessing) at what should be "between" the actual pixel structure (lower res image that contains the data) will look better than only that data.

Nowhere did I say that it "increases the resolution", though if you want to be technical about it, the scaling itself increases the resolution. Obviously scaling in and of itself will look like crap, so there is processing done (interpolation) to that image to guess what would be there if there were an infinite number of pixels to start with.

It'd be like taking a low res digital camera of an object, then taking a high resolution image. There is an obvious difference in quality, and with processing, the extra pixels can be "guessed" based on the source image. **Note that I am NOT saying the quality will be the same as the high res image!!**

I never said that upconverted (to 720p, for example) DVDs will look as good as a native 720p source. That's why Blu-Ray and HD-DVD are coming.. (and HD sources that are already commonplace). Both of you are putting words in my mouth now -- what do you have to say about the actual *results* from the link I provided?

Re:dude you still don't get it

[miltimj]

I've actually published research papers in the field of image enhancement. Sorry to say this, but I have to because you are acting so authoritative: Everything you say is bullshit. the original poster is 100% correct. you haven't the slightest notion of what you speak.

I just have to laugh at this statement. From an anonymous coward.. Please, show me your multiple research papers, as well as the supposed BS in my posts. Or are you just the same person I've responded to already? [sigh]

Re:dude you still don't get it

[Sketch]

> It'd be like taking a low res digital camera of an object, then taking a high resolution image. There is an obvious difference in quality, and with processing, the extra pixels can be "guessed" based on the source image. **Note that I am NOT saying the quality will be the same as the high res image!!**

If that _really_ works, who needs HDTV? You can just upsample your SDTV video to 1080i. Sure, it wouldn't be as good as real HDTV, but it'd be better than SDTV.

While we're at it, let's upsample our CDs from 16-bit to 32-bit. With appropriate processing, they will be "higher quality" than the original CDs!

You seem to be missing the parent poster's point. You can't create new data that wasn't in the original data stream. Yes, you can increase the resolution and process it to make up for the loss of sharpness from that, but you can't really make it "better" than the original source.

I suspect your original reasoning is more of the reason you see an improvement than upscaling: The higher end projectors have better components.

Re:dude you still don't get it

[TheOrquithVagrant]

You can't make the upscaled/interpolated versions contain more _accurate_ data than whatever was in the original stream. You can, however, create new "guessed" data that makes the resulting image or audio look and sound _subjectively_ better. It gives a more pleasant viewing/listening experience, which is the only thing miltimj is claming, despite attempts by responders to put words and claims in his mouth. Nowhere does he say it's an equal thing to a genuine 720 or 1080 source stream.

And as for upsampling CD audio - most decent standalone CD players and even soundcards _do_ just that, and have done for years, exactly because the resulting audio _sounds_ better, even if it contains no more "information" than the 16bit/44.1khz data on the CD.

solution to point one

[Anonymous Coward]

The ability to download shows and run them from the HTPC, similar to the DVR but without requiring a capture card. Also provides a nice interface to give show/season/episode info.

It's called Netflix -- look into it :-)

Road Apple on the Convergence Highway:

[DukeW]

Road Apple on the Convergence Highway: Three months with Windows Media Center (This is partial text of an article, for the full version with the pictures, email me Duke Weber dleinweber@gmail.com I'm with Stupid Gadget Jones comin' down. I had to have something with a plug, at least a battery compartment. Primal cravings make people do strange and stupid things. They made me build a Windows Media Center PC. This has been going on since I was 12. Mom would drag me to Radio Shack to buy diodes. Diodes, a gateway gadget, lead to stronger stuff. Pretty soon you're soldering everything in sight. Then stereos with speakers as big as refrigerators, wires made from single crystals of silver. Zones of audio, zones of video. DVI and HDMI and panels and plugs that no one else in the house understands, except maybe the 15 year-old girl with the 16:9 rectangular eyes. Computers everywhere. Windows and Macs and Linux. Ethernet Cat 1,2,3,4,5 and 6. Routers, hubs and switches blinking under tables and in closets. Eventually the computer stuff gets lucky with the hi-fi and video heap and that is what magazines like this call "Convergence". Digital devices, music and video converging in a whole new pile of stuff with plugs that we can all go out and buy RIGHT NOW. I'd already plucked the low-hanging convergence fruit. Hang a bunch of beater laptops on network, plug 'em into stereos with he-man external sound boxes. Run iTunes all around and pat yourself on the back 'cause you are CONVERGED, and you didn't have to pay the price of a Buick for some gadget with an 80 gig drive and a blue light to do it. But when the Gadget Jones is down, you need more wire. A few months ago, I made the mistake of cruising websites that traffic in this convergence porn. The news, behold, is that Microsoft, after a few tries, now has a product that doesn't suck - Media Center Edition 2005. Mister Softee, we all know, has become the behemoth it is by selling software that sucks. It doesn't suck quite enough for you to toss it out and get a pencil and a typewriter, but it AWAYS sucks enough that you're willing to bite for the next version, which might suck a little less. If you read it on the Internet, it must be true I was ready to bite when "Paul Thurrott's SuperSite for Windows" (www.supersite.com) told me that, unlike Media Center Editions 2002 and 2004, the new one didn't suck. This could be a two-channel HDTV TIVO, an archive for all those VHS tapes, and a DVD recording factory, I was ready to bite harder when "Build It, Tweak It, Know It" (www.extremetech.com) told me the secrets of turning the heap of computer innards in the closet into an uber-converged monster machine that would have the lesser nerds drooling on the socks in their Teva sandals. The first secret is that you need to scam your way into getting a copy of Windows XP Media Edition 2005, which is only sold to OEMs. Usually, OEMs are companies like Dell and HP. You too can be an OEM by buying some OEM computer parts to use with the OEM software. Most of 'em want you to buy a carload of cases and power supplies and motherboards to qualify as an OEM. WWW.directron.com wants to sell you a mouse. I buy the mouse and snare a shrink wrap Windows MCE 2005, plus the snazzy Microsoft remote control. $125 for the OS, $35 for the remote, $2.99 for the mouse. In the great tradition of "gadgets beget gadgets" the mouse comes with an IR receiver on a long USB wire so you can hide the humming beast in a closet. Gadgets beget lots of gadgets. I wasn't going to build some girlie man Media PC, so I scoped out Microsoft's list of deluxe pre-made Media PCs (http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/mediacenter/ev aluation/products.mspx) I made sure that I had the best of any of them. More disks, faster AMD Athlon 64 CPU, Zalman Cooler, Gigs of memory, DVD readers & writers, video in, DVI out. The pile of packages alone was a nerd badge of courage. I can follow instructions as well as the

Re:Road Apple on the Convergence Highway:

[DukeW]

Sorry about the loss of any formatting in that. How about some HTML guys?

Here come the Tivo / MythTV bashers - sumary.

[ayeco]

If you want to walk out of a store, plug the device into the wall, get it up and running in mintues, timeshift and view music/pics from your PC then get a TiVo.

If you want to *maybe* spend less money (EASILY more), do a lot of tinkering (which can be loads of fun, or not), timeshift, play games, view music/pics, surf the web and do some spreadsheet, then make a MythTV/Freevo/MCE/etc pc.

I'm still happy with my lifetime sub series 1 tivo. I've had it for 5.5 years, added a hdd etc. It made a seemless integration into my lifestyle. I ALSO have a pc that I work on. ...which has a long component cable running out of that goes into my HDTV.

No need to reinvent the wheel, er tivo, it's clean, done and ready w/o headaches (or fun). Share the love, get a tivo and hook your pc up to your tv, too.

Did this article detail all the M$ DRM in MCE?

[plasmacutter]

I'll bet you a million bucks they don't mention windows MCE's requirements for CGMS-A (the hbo blocker) amongst other thoroughly layered DRM which hobbles their devices.

Lamest article ever

[pyite69]

No MythTV, they just had some weird Microsoft product. Also, their motherboards did not seem to have an S/PDIF connector. Also, it was not hi def.

My HTPC uses an Asus P4P800-VM, with a pchdtv.com hi def tuner. I have MythTV installed, though I use bit torrent + mplayer a lot more.

Unfortunately, I spent a LOT more time playing World of Warcraft than playing media. (Cedega rocks)

Capture card that does captions?

[Anonymous Coward]

Is there any card other than the Hauppauge PVR-250 that will embed closed captions into the mpegs (allowing for later extraction if I felt like it) that has better image quality (and can capture HDTV even)? The video quality of the 250 is poor compared to say, the PVR-150, but I haven't heard of other cards that will handle closed captions well either...

Re:Capture card that does captions?

[enrico_suave]

re: Closed captioning

First: I wouldn't say the PVR250 is *that* far off picture quality from the pvr150. The difference is marginal (although it probably depends if you're using a svideo source or tuner source). I mean the pvr150 is a smidge better, but it's not like the pvr250 is a dog.

I may be wrong, but I swear there was a driver release coming "soon" or was in beta that had CC support. I'm not sure if that was w/ivtv on linux or if it was windoze driver... Coulda just been voices in my head though so take that with a grain of salt ( I suggest asking on the , shs will know)

e.

$Re:The IDEAL HTPC is ....

[Rich0]

The shuttle retails for $260
The cpu is $80
$50 for ram
$100 for the hard drive
$70 for the tuner
$130 for XP MCE
$40 for remote
$50 for 9200LE
$23 for the sound card
Grand total is:
$803

If you want mythtv instead you can drop the $130 for XP.

In any case, you're WAY over $400. You also don't have a DVD drive, which makes the DVD playing software a bit unnecessary. So, add another $30-40, unless you want to burn DVDs in which case it is probably higher.

I've debated a mythtv setup, but if I want dual tuners I'm spending almost $1000 with a stack of satellite receivers and a PC. Or, I can get a DVR essentially for free from any cable co. I'd really like to have the freedom that myth offers, but it comes at a hefty price unless you have a PC lying around...

You could save a little with different hardware (no need for separate video card or sound card unless you're playing games). However, you won't save that much. Any PC you build on your own is going to be well over $500...

Home-built can't really compete with everything

[Anonymous Coward]

If price is no issue (this device probably costs way over 5000 dollars), Niveus Media has a fanless killer box, with balanced inputs and outputs and everything else that makes regular "media PCs" look feeble. Sure, it's bulky, and it's not exactly expandable with PCI or such, but it's designed for this job.

http://store.niveusmedia.com/s.nl/sc.2/category.24 /it.I/id.16/.f

don't forget some of the most important specs

[Anonymous Coward]

Properly decking out your home theater with the right seating can be just as important as the rest of the components. The screen alone does not give the entire theater experience - for example many seats today plug right into your amp and will actually shake when the bass in the movie kicks in.

Remote Control Software

[Anonymous Coward]

http://sweb.cz/dopc/rcontrol.htm
I was dissapointed with Girder - to hard to set up, so I made something more user friendly
it's just alpha (no help/doc, only test group for winamp, bsplayer and powerdvd), but I'm working on it :)

.NET 1.1 required

XBMC

[Anonymous Coward]

I gave up on the HTPC concept quite a while ago as it's inherantly flawed by the horrificly bad TV output every pc has.

My Current setup is 3 modded Xboxs all running Xbox Media Center connected to a 500GB filer server upstairs, running W2kPro. The Xbox TV out is crisp as you like and it's got Digital optical or coaxial as required. I can watch or listen to anything I like anywhere in the house as well as being able to watch things like launch.com and gamespot live on my tv. Ok, so I can't record but who cares since I don't watch TV anymnore, I just see what gets good reviews and download that... Upgrading storage is easy, just whack a new drive in and span to it. I've got enough space in the case for anotehr 8 drives, which should seee this system out I hope.

Stock

[meehawl]

they are all out of stock

Hmm. You're right, the 80 hour model is out. Some of the other models seem okay. Then again, maybe DNNA has stopped manufacturing them in advance of their HD/Escient launch.

the way I can use wifi with Tivo and how it handles programming over the web

Replay has built-in ethernet which is trivial to plug in to a wifi bridge, what are the extras that Tivo offers here? I was swayed from buying Tivo because I heard its shared shows come with DRM that's just annoying.

Also, you may or may not have seen DVArchive - it makes the Replay visible as a uPNP device and you can control it from any Java-equipped device. I use it in combination with VideoLAN to transcode and stream some shows to some friends in Europe.

Also, DVArchive on PC/Mac/Linux runs a central web server that lets you control any and all networked Replays and DVArchive boxes. One new thing I really like is that you can also see, stream, and copy with the Replays from a modded XBox running XBox Media Center.

$300 DVR

[CrazyMik]

"...you could add DVR functionality for around another $300 if your requirements are low."

I want to build a low end, cheap as hell, DVR, but all there is out there is the "dream machine" articles or atricles suggesting $1000 is cheap.

What does your DVR system use for hardware/software? Do you have to leave it running 24/7 (can it hibernate)? Linux or Windows?

Re:$300 DVR

[w3weasel]

Here's two starting points, the first weighs in at just over $300 and is a standard PC with moderate performance and good expandability, could support 3 tuners, possibly 4. The second is a very low performance but FANLESS option, and weighs in at ~$350 but restricts you to a single tuner (external USB tuners are still an option). Both assume that you can scrounge a CD/DVD rom (or add ~$25 to the price) and also scrounge a case (or add ~$30 to the price for a cheapie). Since you are a slashdot reader, i assume you can probably get your hands on memory and probably a hard drive or two to help reduce the cost even further.

motherboard
video card with tv out
tv tuner/pvr
processor
memory
80G drive

alternatively:
all in one fanless mobo+processor tv tuner/pvr
memory
80G drive

now, the easiest option of all is to just add the PVR150 card to your current PC, and thats cheap!

my HTPC system:
AtlhonXP2400+
EPoX Nforce2Ultra400 motherboard with CMedia 7.1 sound
Nvidia 5200le with TV out video card
1GB RAM (2x512)
2 hauppauge PVR150 non-MCE tuners
2x160GB hard drives
1x300GB hard drives
1NEC 2510 DVD+/-RW (DL enabled)
SageTV3.0.11 PR
Windows XPpro
I should probably mention the iTunes and 34GB of music, one of the main reasons i did this!

I tried Snapstream's BeyondTV didnt like because it had no predictive recording
I tried MythTV on Knoppix, im just not great with Linux yet, had driver problems
I tried MyHTPC (now Meedio) then free, now costs$, it was ok, but finicky.
Sage was the most polished, and full featured option, and $70 one time fee versus TiVo's 10$/month... no brainer.

if that helps you, then you are welcome, if it does not, please dont flame me

Re:$300 DVR

[CrazyMik]

You rock man, Just the kind of info I wanted, and a great comparison of the software too.

Re:How is it the "ultimate" when it only has 1 tun

[Anonymous Coward]

> The HD thing is what kills mythtv for me. There aren't any cable/satellite capable HD=capture cards that I'm aware of. There's just the one OTA (over-the-air) card that may (will?) die when the FCC gets its broadcast flag. ... if anyone knows differently I'm all ears...

That depends on your definition of "die". The cards built prior to the broadcast flag, if it ever gets enacted, will still be legal to use. Just no new cards without broadcast flag supoprt can be sold here in this country. Just like region free DVD players? *cough*

Phone as bluetooth remote

[Anonymous Coward]

Check out the bluetooth remote program I wrote:

http://www.geocities.com/saravkrish/progs/bluemote /

You don't need to install anything on your phone. The program resides on your PC.

Thanks,
Sarav