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States Planning to Require License to Sell on EBay
RobMowery writes "CNN reports that North Dakota and other state governments are trying to pass laws to require people who are selling for others on Ebay to purchase an auctioneer license, attend classes (for a fee) and become bonded." From the article: "North Dakota's Public Service Commission is exploring whether people like Nichols, who runs a small consignment store in Crosby, must obtain auctioneer licenses before they can legally use eBay to sell merchandise for others. Regulators in other states are also eyeing similar restrictions or preconditions, moves prompted by the growing popularity of online auctions. To get a North Dakota auctioneer's license, applicants must pay a $35 fee, obtain a $5,000 surety bond and undergo training at one of eight approved auction schools, where the curriculum includes talking really fast ... Commissioner Kevin Cramer said he does not believe the law applies to people who sell their own goods over eBay, but it could cover those who sell property consigned by others for a fee."
I think this is a good idea. These individuals are running an auctioning business by taking peoples items for consignment. As long as it does not spread to those just selling their own private goods, this seems like an incredibly good idea.
It provides protections to the people who give their goods over for sale, as well as provides a link to the individual that is selling, and a person can prove that they are a bonded seller as well.
Obviously the classes would have to change slightly for internet retailers, mentioning talking fast is sort of moot if this were to go ahead.
If you don't vote, you don't matter, so don't waste your time telling me your opinion
Those schools should be required to add "online auctions" as a class.
Not saying that I agree with this, but if you're going to force the online guys to learn the auctioneer rap, the auctioneers better learn how to navigate eBay and similar systems. If the pretense for passing this law is being fair and equitable, then it had better be.
Constitutionally Correct
So I'll be selling via on off-shore account. Great.
It's amazing that we, the people, actually vote for people that are willing to do this. Note to politicians: Learn how to balance a budget like 99% of the country has to! Stop spending on crap and realize you cannot keep quietly taxing us. This is living free?
"If you are a dreamer, a wisher, a liar, A hope-er, a pray-er, a magic bean buyer
Government interferes with a free market in perfect working order to generate revenue.
Ok, someone who puts something on ebay ISN'T running the auction. Ebay is. The person placing the good on ebay sets the high price and reserve - but how is that any different than if you hire an auctioneer?
So does everyone who wants to hire an auctioneer now need a license to auction? How non-sensical is that?
This is, quite literally, a stab at taxing the internet.
Considering the number of people who have been ripped off via Ebay, and the fact that Ebay controls not just the marketplace, but the most popular method of payment (PayPal), and that if you get ripped off Ebay's of no help at all, this is not a bad idea at all. I'd love to see state license numbers when I buy from people.
That is just ridiculous. They have no way of enforcing it and even if they did, EBay would probably challenge the states. An easy way to get by it though would be to list all auctions as "Buy it Now" with the option to bid. That way it's like a regular online store and auctioning laws do not apply.
But how can you ensure that it remains resellers only? I don't trust politicians with this, they always take it too far. I for one do not welcome our blundering politician overlords...
"MY APOCALYPTIC TENOR HAS NOT BEEN DISPELLED!" - T-Rex, qwantz.com
Ebay is the "auctioneer" not the person providing the item for auction. Doh!
Why, oh why are the threads pointless when I have mod points, and when I really want to mod up, I don't have points.
Why, oh why, didn't I take the Blue Pill?
Either way, I see it as a stupid idea. This is two things: a blatant attempt at getting more revenue for the state (though licensing fees), and (pure guess here) an attempt by auctioneers (probably a union of some sort) to get more money because their trade is threatened (in some ways) by eBay.
Why eBay? Why not require it for garage sales? Why not go after silent auctions that all sorts of places run (like many school districts and churches to raise funds). Usually there is a little good a law might do, or you can at least see some good intent behind it. This would do anything but prevent everyone in ND from selling things on eBay.
If you want to protect people from fraud, go after the NDers that are actually perpetrating fraud on others through eBay. Come up with a way to become a "registered eBayer" in the state so people can guaranty that you can be held accountable if you rip people off (but make it voluntary, and free or nearly so ($5) with no classes our anything like that).
Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
Also note that this affects only people who are go-betweens for other customers, NOT your typical homemaker or hobbiest who just discovered that Aunt Ida's prized mathom is going for $5,000 online.
Note that the N.D. law only seems to apply to consignment businesses that are selling other people's property. It doesn't apply pople selling personal property or to businessed selling thier own merchandise. It also doesn't apply to people selling someone else's property, but I think there's a different law against that.
Yea someone putting something on eBay is running an auction. They are requiring people who want to be consignment auctioneers. Basically, if you want to sell something on ebay - but you are terrible at marketing it - they will do all the work for you for a fee. So they are not asking Joe Schmoe who wants to sell his old sweater to get a license. They are not asking Joe Schmoe who wants to hire a consignment specialist to get a license...they are asking a consignment specialist to get a license. This is not uncommon. The difference between a traditional consignment store and eBay, is that when you walk into a consignment store there is a physical location -you meet people; there is overhead. If you, however, hire someone online to sell for you, and they ask for the product first well they could be scamming you and this is another level of protection.
I used a consignment person once; she asked me to send her pictures of my product...she didn't do that good of a job - at least she didn't do better then I could do so I ended up not using her again - but I am a little bit more savvy when it comes to online marketing (or marketing in general) then Joe Schmoe.
I mod down so you can mod up. Your welcome.
The point of the law is that it applies to places like Pawn Shops - not the Joe Schmo who sells Grandma's old trinkets or the like. Consignment is the factor at hand, and if there is no consignment according to this law, there need be no paperwork through the state.
It helps to read things and understand them before getting terribly upset over them.
My new auction site will be based in Toronto.
You can't handle the truth.
This only pertains to people who sell other people's goods online. The headline is misleading.
A blog like any other.
This law seems reasonably well intentioned, but as with internet sales taxes it will be hard to enforce via state laws. And of course for sellers outside of the U.S., forget it. Wouldn't it be better for states to make this a voluntary certification rather than a law. Sellers that have gone through the certification process could use it as additional proof of trustworthiness and the state doesn't have to waste resources trying to enforce a law that may be inherently unenforceable for internet commerce.
To the making of books there is no end, so let's get started
Why pay taxes and licenses to generate revenue for the government to operate. Unless there is a fiscal crisis, there should be no new taxes or licenses levied on the people.
Governments are not corporations. They are not to thrive of the populace, they only exist to support the populace in whatever limited role the voters decide. I personally would not elect anyone who thinks the government should het "its fair share", or that a new popuilar practice is some untapped revenue stream.
Slashdot's rate-of-post filter: Preventing you from posting too many great ideas at once.
...for users to RTFA before jumping to conclusions about government trying to control their daily lives on every other story.
You are in a maze of little twisting passages, all different.
This will probably get slapped down pretty quickly via the interstate commerce clause of the constitution. State regulations still might apply to people selling within the state, but somehow I don't think there's too many North Dakotans selling to other North Dakotans, as opposed to out of state. Large states (CA, NY, TX) simply won't be that stupid, at least, not if governors and state legislators want to be re-elected. Interstate Commerce Clause
Remain calm! All is well!
What's particularly irksome is that this represents triple-taxing of the transaction. eBay consignment shops need a POP because people are more comfortable with that, and shipping an unsold item to sell it and then ship it again is just too expensive. So the business is paying taxes in the state in which it is incorporated. And possibly in all states in which its shops operate (I'm not familiar with the tax situation there). And certainly the individuals who eventually receive the shops' profits are taxed on income. The double-taxation of corporate income is reasonable because the corporate tax rate is low and incorporation provides concrete advantages which it is reasonable to pay for. I really don't see how this third layer of taxation is anything but an attempt by the states to suck a little more money out of the population without providing anything in exchange.
High-speed Road Trip (18.000KPH)
But of course they'd want to ruin a perfectly good thing with a new law...that's just like a politician. I mean if there's no cool new laws to write like this one, then a politician would be out of a job (or at least pretty bored).
Why don't they stay out of the American people's hair and take away a few laws. Seriously, America is becoming a fascist state. Freedom is something that is so hard to protect from politicians messing up.
-> Sometimes, you just gotta break free from the shackles of proprietary code.
This is primarily a money grab. While additional protections from scams out there would be a good thing especially if a state law would help tip the balance on whether state or local law enforcement on the scamming end gets involved or not, the bad part of this is that it really is a money grab and power grab by the states and localities pushing for state involvement.
The couple hundred positive feedbacks with a three-nines or better positive to negative would be a good indicator of whether to trust a seller (or buyer) whether selling for himself or on consignment. All this will stop is the casual seller or buyer who either isn't tech savvy or won't sign up for ebay. As for protection against scams, paypal is a nightmare, even refusing to close their account unless you agree to their new terms first (even with no money in the account), and their attempts to get you to expire your credit card protections while waiting for their help is well-documented elsewhere.
What is really needed is federal protection against this auction license garbage, along with federal protection on selling/buying via ebay out of your home instead of at a commercial location, like the vast majority of ebay buyers/sellers do even though it is against local ordinances. Small businesses and casual sellers working their way up to small businesses need nurturing and help, not a raid by the local building department because UPS stops by 2 or 3 times a week and the local nosy neighbor with nothing better to do doesn't like it.
If I want to hire someone to put my stuff up on ebay, I'll decide whether I want them to have a license or certification or not. Please don't try to represent me by deciding this on my behalf.
Secession is the right of all sentient beings.
If you are taking other peoples property and selling it at auction, you are acting as an auctioneer. That some states require autctioneers to be bonded is nothing new.
Around where I live, we have a number of large commercial businesses that sell stuff for you on EBay. You drop your items off with them, they sell it on EBay for you, and take a 20%-30% cut off the top. There's nothing wrong with requiring bonding for these kinds of businesses to prevent fraud (i.e. seller says item sold for $50 and keeps $10 to cover his 20% fee, when item actually sold for $70). Because this kind of business involves a trust relationship, bonding is called for.
There is nothing so pathetic as seeing a beautiful young theory roughed up by a tough gang of facts.
I oppose this law on other grounds.
But I have to ask -- if the state is "not providing anything in exchange" for your tax money, why do you live there? Why not just move to Congo, large parts of which have no functioning government?
The Congress shall have Power To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;*
* Not valid in all areas. Some restrictions may apply. Consult an attorney before attempting trade within the several states. If redness or inflamation appear discontinue interstate trade immediatly and seek legal assitance.
.... Governments want to cash in the eBay craze so that they have another income stream.
This is my opinion. To make sure you don't steal it, it's covered by the DMCA.
I'd like Congress to consider using an actual advisory panel of random internet business owners (not those appointed by the executive branch) and let them advise congress on what kinds of laws would be reasonable and acceptable by the internet business public.
Taxing and Regulating EBay or other auction businesses like it is absolutely unacceptable, not just to the potential seller but for the entire business of auctioning.
You don't do it to live, in-person auctions, you don't do it online. It's just that simple. Get your taxes somewhere else, like oh the real businesses in your own damn states that you're giving tax breaks to. They don't need it and they don't deserve them. Don't make Auctioneers suffer for it.
"Love is like pi - natural, irrational, and very important." (Lisa Hoffman)
youre right except in the case of ebay live auctions
`In a free market, anyone can enter'
In the real world, all markets have barriers to entry, chief of which is capital. The so called barrier of entry you're referring to is, practically speaking, no more a barrier to entry than being required to pony up an equivalent amount of cash to start a vending route or to beer making equipment, or any other business that requires investment.
`owning a small business doesn't turn you into a capitalist '
That much is correct. Capitalism is a theory of production, not a theory of retail or professional services. A business owner is only a capitalist inasmuch as he or she owns the means of production. Many businesses don't produce anything in the sense of the word used by economists.
But let's be objective about this. Show me a single market of concrete goods for which all the assumptions of perfect competition hold. Once you are able to do that, then we talk as to whether a license to sell things on consignment is anymore of an artifical barrier of entry than any of the other barriers of entry (such as a lack of money) to most markets.
...has really killed off the sleazy car salesmen and predatory financing.
So now you have to sue a bonding company to get paid, and believe me, they can afford better lawyers than two-bit junk dealers.
this is a horrible idea! why does a sale b/n private individuals require licensing? this is the government attempting to get a piece of the action: nothing more, nothing less. licensing fees, required classes...WTF? if i own [property] and choose to sell it to [buyer], that's none of the government's business so long as no deception occurred.
it's a naked power grab, folks and represents an expansion of government power into citizens perfectly legal dealings. this should be rejected, and quickly, IMHO. doesn't ebay already have seller ratings and other protections?
ed
Regulations like this are just begging to be routed around.
If my "buy it now" price is the same as my reserve, then it's not an auction and not subject to the law.
Consignment salesmen may find it easier to just tell their customers "Here are recent ebay prices on that item. Pick a price and I'll sell it on e-bay for that fixed price" than to mess with licenses etc.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
I think this is one of the dumbest ideas I've ever heard. The whole point of Ebay is to make it simple for people to buy/sell online. By adding in government regulation that requires people to take an auction class, we're totally going against that. When I buy on eBay, I can look at other customer's comments about the seller and I can chose to shop with only power sellers if I want added security. It seems to me that Ebay has already solved this one and that a class on auctions is completely unnecessary. Sellers are not auctioneers, they are sellers. If you attend an auction in real life as a seller you don't need to take a class. Why should you have to if you're going online to participate in an auction?
No Sigs!
Nah, ebay isn't technically an auction either. An auctioneer take the item from you and gives you the money when it sells.
eBay is just a glorified classified site. They do not take the item for you.
It is your responsibility to negotiate payment and delivery of the goods.
If someone else is taking the item from you and negotiating the payment and delivery of goods on your behalf, that is someththing else entirely. Thats what they are trying to regulate. Perhaps requiring an auction licence doesn't make sense, but a licence to run a consignment business does make sense.
I don't believe anything of this sort is strictly a "tax" based decision. Especially with the low volume of money the state would be reaping from the decision. I mean, where I am there are a lot of the "I Sold on eBay" places. But not that many.
I think many are overlooking the less obvious here. Stolen goods. I know here, at least, an Auctioneer and a Pawn Shop are required to be bonded, not for tax purposes, but to know who they are. A "reputable" Pawn Shop must even make inquires and file reports with local Police Departments when they get certain types of merchandise.
This looks more like the state wanting to be able to watch the movement of goods than wanting to earn tax revenue from a couple of hundred "auctioneers." Especially if part of the law requires items with serial numbers to be ran through the Police to verify they have not been reported stolen before they can be sold.
"Genius may shine aloof and alone, like a star, but goodness is social, and it takes two men and God to make a Brother."
Step back for just a minute and look at the reasons why it was decided long ago that you needs an auctioneer license. Obviously running an auction takes a bit of skill. Recognizing bid raises, knowing how much to raise the price, knowing how long to wait for the item to be sold, and the whole "talking fast" thing are special skills. The idea of regulating it is to protect the public from unskilled auctioneers who won't get a good price for an item.
Almost all of that crap is handled by Ebay itself. The person selling the item by proxy only has to set an initial price, describe the item, etc. These are all skills that don't normally require regulation in any other context. Why (other than trying to raise more tax revenue) should the states try to regulate trading assistance?
AccountKiller
Apparently it wasn't enough that Europe spawned several fascist states in the 20th century. The 21st belongs to the USA.
What's next? Requiring you to get an official license to help your neighbors? A license to cook your own food?
And talking about enforcement: they should really put wiretaps on every US household, intercept all traffic, and if anybody *gasp* sells anything on ebay without a license, shoot them. Optionally broadcast that on TV, so that everybody is warned.
I am not an "auctioneer", Ebay is!
Isn't that the whole point of selling on Ebay...? They provide the house, you provider the crap.
What's next, garage sales and lemonade stands?
My guess is that online courses and bonding would quickly be set up by eBay to help out.
I'm not a big government guy, but why should online hocks be exempt from the basic rules that all other resale business owners have to deal with?
From a legal standpoint, E-bay is not an auction. In their FAQ they have a reply to the questions about why the closing time doesn't change to last-bid + 5 minutes or similar. Basically, if they did that they would be regulated like an auction which would add much complexity and legal red tape to their service.
That's a paraphrase. Their FAQ is so big that it's hard to find answers to specific questions.
...a local law on a service run globally?
I think we can keep recursing like this until someone returns 1
You can argue this to death about "interstate sales", "ebay is the auctioner not the seller" and it really doesnt matter. The government will do what it wants, when it wants because they are in power.
:)
So be prepared to sign up for an ebay license test.
The worst thing to do is to sit here any say "ah this will never pass its stupid"
Have you taken a look at our government lately?
Apparently it wants more money to make up for our trillion dollar debt.
An auction is more than just a guy taking bids. If you look at Sothebys a considerable amount of time is spent making sure the article is genuine, promoting the auction and the items in their catalog. I am not sure how much of the certification goes into these areas though.
Please sign petition to restore sanity to our banking system!!!
http://financialpetition.org/
The seller is just, well, the seller -- someone who has purchased the auctioneer's services in order to sell a good or service at the highest bid.
If the legislators and bureaucrats in some hicksville US State are so dense that they can't fathom the difference, hopefully your courts will have a little bit more nous.
The auction technically takes place only where the servers are hosted. The only state that can require it is that state(s).
Anything else is a very slippery slope into an area that will start to hinder the freedom of the internet.
Licensing sales is now fascism?
Thats either trolling or ignorance. This is what governmnets do, they tax people or make them get licences so the government can pay for things. Nothing about fascism, its all about revenue streams for the local and state governments.
We have small business licences, drivers licences, health inspection, car inspections, DEQ checks, mufflers, building inspections, licencing and bonding, it's all about exclusion to raise your fees and revenue streams for the government.
Not facsism.
BTW your spelling of nonsensical is, well, nonsensical... still, I bet at least something here's misspelt, so don't take it personally.
No, it's a stab at implementing regulation that already exists in the offline world to the online world. In meatspace, if you sell something yourself and accept the highest offer, that's fine and unregulated. If you set yourself up as someone who sells on behalf of others, you generally have to follow certain laws aimed at consumer protection, ensuring your competence and that people who hire you know that you're a competent auctioneer. The same rules apply, say, for driving. If you want to drive other people around, commercially, you generally need some form of taxi driver's license. And most of us actually find that a good thing, we know the unlicensed cabby is the one who's likely to rip us off.It's not a simple "They're trying to tax the interweb" thing. Far from it. There are dumb aspects, like the fact the training, right now, applies to meatspace auctions and contains portions irrelevent to online auctions. But the principle isn't as stupid as the kneejerk reactions from many on Slashdot say.
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
Some might say that's an improvement. After all, it's a former Belgian colony.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
I'm having trouble picking out a real-life equivalent to these consignment operators.
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
I've written many letters of complaint to various orgs (BBB, FTC, Local Police) etc about both Ebay and PayPal, especially PayPal.
Ebay and PayPal are rife with fraud and do nothing to protect their customers. These companies should be held responsible for the staggering amount of fraud their companies facilitate.
Write to your local congressman, the FTC and BBB and tell them that you think PayPal behaves like a bank and you believe it should be treated like a bank. Also let them know that Ebay is littered with fraud and does shockingly little to stop it, despite being in the best position to do so.
Ebay is technically the auctioneer, hosts the auction, etc. Shouldn't they be the only ones that need a license. If not a simple change in their user agreement would protect the "auctioneer's" from needing a license.
It's always amazing to me the rights states feel they have over the lives of their citizens. How long before you need a license to sneeze? After all, sneezing can spread disease if done wrong. I'd say about 4 weeks of classes should be sufficient to teach you how to do it properly. Of course, you pay for this.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
What need less regulation, not more!
You missed his point, either deliberately or not.
His point was Ebay is the auctioneer, not the consignment store. Ebay conducts the auction, not the person accepting items for consignment sale.
I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
If this is the case, if I were to hold a auction or take merchandise to a local auction house, then I will need an auction license also.
Yes, but that decision to put up capital is incredibly voluntary. You're confusing the monetary definition of "Free" with the civil liberties version of "Free", the common mistake of any idiotic conflict theorist/marxist.
Read up about "joint and several liability".
You can sue them both, take the assets of the seller if you can, go after the bonding company if you can't.
Just like one is still liable for damages in a car accident if one has insurance. The insurance company does indemnify you up to the liability limit, but that doesn't prevent people from suing you. You could get sued and lose, and the insurance company could refuse to pay (for example, if they think you were drunk even if you weren't and there is an exclusion for that) and you'd have to sue the insurance company to get paid - in the meantime you'd be in the hole to the plaintiff big time.
Bonding and insurance companies don't remove legal liability.
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
The policy that eBay is legally akin do a classified section and not an auction was started by its first lawyer, Brad Handler, when he joined in October of 1997. There are a number of reasons for it to take this position, foremost among them being that if they were an auction, then they would have legal responsibility to vet all auctioned items up front. Which is impossible for them to do since they never have possession.
In January, 2001 eBay won Gentry v. eBay, which established that US courts agreed with this policy.
They have since fought this same legal battle in a number of venues, including most sensationally a case about a year ago in India where the president of eBay India was briefly put in jail over an auction of CDs with illegal porn on them.
Disclaimer: I am an eBay employee. However none of this is secret - I learned this from The Perfect Store except the item about India, which was widely reported in the media when it happened.
The USA is supposed to be the land of the free, not the land of the big government or a police state. Thomas Jefferson must be rolling in his grave. No more victimless crimes should be added to the law books, and the one already there should be striken from the books!!! If a person is a victim of a crime then they should have charges filed against that person or sue them, then the defendent can defend themselves.
FalconShould there be a Law?
Phew, you're quoting Ann Rand. I was worried for a second you were quoting some out-there, fantasy-land, nut-job who's puerile, delusional, piece of shit novel is like a "little red book" for whacko libertarians who think the free market is the answer to every problem from tooth-decay to nuclear war.
Oh.
Ayn Rand? Nevermind, then.
State licences are only useful for transactions in that state. Across the state you have to look to the ICC and if not all states even have laws that each other must respect then the whole question is moot.
Well, ebay was nice while it lasted.
Wait, no it wasn't. It's full of con artists and idiots.
I had one twit who sent me a check, even though I said "Paypal only" in the auction, and hand wrote the shipping address. Thing was, it was too messy to read. All I could tell was that it was a different city than the return address on the letter.
I sent it back with a polite letter explaining the problem, asking her to send a typed or printed copy of the address.
The moron mailed back the exact same piece of paper.
I never did manage to get a shipping address out of her, or any kind of a reply. I ended up shredding the check and moving on with life, swallowing the $0.30 fee ebay charged me for the transaction..
Oh well, at least the twit didn't leave me any bad feedback.
"Live Free or Die." Don't like it? Then keep out of the USA
they're just trying to find something else for their cops to enforce. My brother's friend was actually arrested (jailed & everything) in North Dakota for overdue library books...
I'm a signature virus. Please copy me to your signature so I can replicate.
It seems like our entire economy is based top to bottom on how much you can screw somebody. An electrician's car breaks down, the mechanic screws him for just as much money as he thinks he can get away with, but that's ok because the electrician will screw you for just as much money as he can possibly suck out of you. And then all three of you get sick and go to a freaking doctor...who screws all three of you and your insurance company, if any of the bunch is lucky enough to have insurance. And then out of this pool of crap, we elect people to office, who promptly start screwing the public for as much money as they think they can possibly get away with without winding up swinging from a rope.
I finally broke down and watched most of Fahrenheit 9/11 tonight (ironically, ripped to my hard drive, off of a rented DVD), and I must say that my blood was boiling half-way through it.
I swear I sometimes wonder how the US has made it as long as it has. It is hard to believe we can remain competitive in the world economy, when so much of our money didn't come from any actual service or product, but rather comes from screwing people. I hope people enjoy it while they can, because one of these days the bubble is going to burst.
It reminds me of the excellent movie, the Devils Advocate. Only in our economy, the devil just isn't a lawyer, he is a doctor, a mechanic, the retail stores, the RIAA/MPAA, the politicians, the insurance companies, the salesmen, the retail stores, the manufacturers, the customers etc. etc., and each and every one of them is setting out to drown us in a sea of their dishonesty.
Usurper_ii
Ron Paul
Parent should be +5 Funny.
...right?
Nobody could possibly take that tripe seriously.
Not that it's shocking, but it is especially funny because the summary manages to contradict the headline's hyperbole.
A few key phrases: "consignment" and "selling for others". This is not an attempt to require all eBay sellers to become licensed, as the title implies. It is an attempt to require people who sell things on eBay on behalf of others to become licensed. Your grandma in Fargo would still be able to sell her Precious Memories figurines on eBay without a license.
Not R-ing TFA is one thing, but seriously, at least RTFS.
In California all pawn brokers are regulated and for good reason. Because they're selling goods on behalf of a third party they are often seen as 'fences' for stolen goods. By regulating the trade the state has an opportunity to educate those brokers who are honest but potentially naive and to have a registry of those who are less honest and may need to be contacted in the future.
If you've ever bought a used CD in CA. you've purchased from someone who was licensed and bonded (assuming their papers were in order, sig heil!). Having worked at a record shop that did a booming business in legitimate used CDs and vinyl I would say the regulations were not intrusive and worked to assure out customers that anything they bought from us came with a clear title.
Remember, title on stolen goods cannot be transferred by a third party. If you buy a big ticket item on eBay and it turns out to be stolen, the police will confiscate it from you without any reparation. You are free to file a civil suit against the seller, but good luck getting a payout from Joe Schmoe in NY when you're halfway across the continent. Admittedly, the proposed classes would need to have their contents updated but regulating the trade in potentially stolen goods is not a bad thing.
How is it that most Slashdot readers are left leaning, anti-corporate, pro big-government types when it's totally at odds with the thing they're using to read Slashdot? I too think Bush is a doofus and that teaching creationism in schools is bad(it'll never happen) but at some point the luster of Socialism will fade when our online experience is regulated into oblivion.
Is it hypocritical to complain about corporate greed when you're making a ton of money on Ebay?
What if Digg added local news and a Slashdot inspired comment karma system? ---
http://houndwire.com
The so called barrier of entry you're referring to is, practically speaking, no more a barrier to entry than being required to pony up an equivalent amount of cash to start a vending route or to beer making equipment
Sorry, er actually not, neither beer making nor the equipment to make beer, is expensive. Not far from where I live, if I didn't already have one, I can get a Brewing Intermediate Kit for $100, a starter kit for $73, or a basic kit for $55. Throw in another $40 and I can get a beer kit to make 5 gallons of BOHEMIAN DARK LAGER. And I don't need a license!!! With the same equipment I can make some wine or saki, which was fun making, now I'd like to try making some uzo (sic), Greek liquor/wine.
FalconShould there be a Law?
I hear a lot of people talking about bonding providing some assurance against fraud. I think this actually makes some sense. Instead of trying this auctioneer license nonsense how about just a simple law saying anyone selling something for someone by proxy that normally will sell for over X dollars needs to be bonded? X is something like $200 or $500.
Then people selling trivial things don't require bonding, but anyone selling something valueable (and thus tempted to just steal the thing and walk away) would be required to carry some kind of protection against that kind of fraud. It also protects against crooks simply saying they only use the "buy it now" option, thus avoiding anything that might look like an auction.
AccountKiller
Holy crap, we made Slashdot! Take that, Wyoming!
If you read the article, you'll see that it's just the state Public Service Commission "exploring" whether this is a good idea. I doubt they'll implement it - the PSC just has nothing better to do this week.
But that's not what eBay's legal agreement says when you sign up. They are just the venue, and aren't responsible for the auction results legally. Or at least that's what they claim. I don't know if it's been challenged in the US yet.
Obviously eBay IS the one conducting the auction to some extent, and should be the ones required to be bonded. But they'd charge people much more to sell which would make things a bit safer, but eliminate most of their profits and sellers like me. I only sell for fun, and for funny.
Saskboy's blog is good. 9 out of 10 dentists agree.
South Dakota already requires this, by law, however it is not broadly enforced... moreover, it is not -- reasonably -- enforceable. About the only really enforceable solution might be to require sellers to register their state salestax license with the site and have ebay automagically calculate salestax. This would be onerous to ebay and also gets into a number of jurisdictional legal areas.
I'm just a geek though.
"This above all, to thine own self be true"
You're misreading it. There are consignment operators on eBay. "I'll sell it for you and take a cut". THOSE people have to be licensed. YOU, the SELLER or BUYER does not. This is a lot of flap and a ridiculous headline over next to nothing. Should third-party sellers be licensed? Maybe not, but it's hardly trying to make everyone who sells on eBay a licensed auctioneer.
7 November 2006: The day Americans realized corruption and incompetence weren't addressing 11 September 2001
I feel this is a horribly stupid idea. Aside from being unconstitutional, the "education" for getting such a liscense when you're only selling on eBay is just utterly stupid. It's like forcing me to take a class on painting when I'm a CS major. There's little point.
All the states are trying to do is to suck more money from the taxpayers.
However, there is a shiny side this this horrible idea: by being certified by the state, they can list said credentials on eBay (and various other auction sites.) Then, unless their account gets hijacked, you can be certain that you will be able to have no false listings or other fraud.
Despite this shiny side, there is no real good reason to put things like this in place. I encourage everyone in the affected states to write to their representatives/governer/etc. and express your displeasure with this. Don't forget to mention the unconstitutionality of it!
"The same rules apply, say, for driving. If you want to drive other people around, commercially, you generally need some form of taxi driver's license."
Ironic you should use this example, as I was just thinking about taxi drivers.
Suppose I decide to sell an old painting at my local brick-and-mortar auction house. I grab my painting, and since I don't have a car, I get in a cab, and go to the auction house to drop it off for auctioning.
Question: Does my cab driver need an auction license?
What if I'm handicapped, and the cab driver has to carry the painting into the auction house for me?
What if I just hire him to take the painting to the auction house for me, so I can stay home?!
At which step here do we decide that this cab driver needs an auction license? Because that last analogy is almost exactly what the Ebay consignment guys are doing.
The only thing to do in ND when you're 13 is to drive around in your dad's pickup drinking and shooting at stop signs. When I lived there, it was illegal to buy anything except for gas and "essential" food on sundays. All other stores were required by law to be closed.
They just got electricity in 2002, and they just heard of the internets like last year. Imagine the surprise when they find out on the intarweb the earth is not flat like their state.
Need Free Juniper/NetScreen Support? JuniperForum
I mean I don't see any laws requiring any client of Sotheby's to obtain any "auctioneer license" before they can put up something for auction...
Tyranny isn't the worst enemy of a democracy. Cynicism is.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
There is a "License To Sell Merchandise By Online Auction On Consignment" requirement for business, or wording like that. I was walking along a storefront and saw the license in a frame, clearly in plain view, showing the $135 (or so) license fee.
This city requires a license to have a jukebox, to have music played (in addition to ASCAP, BMI or SESAC), and anything else the control board lets them get away with.
Gleepy the Hen. More intelligent than the average hen.
I didn't say the state is not providing anything in exchange for my tax dollars. I said this proposed law seems not to provide anything in return. The income being generated is already taxed, almost certainly twice. I fail to see how auctioneer training is relevant to eBay posting. And I don't believe that "surety bonding" will either make people feel safer buying from or selling through North Dakota state-licensed eBay consignment shops, nor will it make them actually safer.
High-speed Road Trip (18.000KPH)
I suppose that also means they will require sales tax permits and business articles of incorporation for individual girl scouts selling cookies.
always wonderful to see Our Government In Action stir from Our Government Inaction for bogus purposes and flail wildly in an attempt to look useful.
pinhead idiots.
if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
According to the current administration, over 400,000 Americans make their living selling stuff on eBay. If there are 400,000 Americans making a living doing that, the states want a part of it: sales tax or occupational tax.
I think that North Dakota ought to pass a law requiring politicians to pay a $35 dollar fee and take a class. I'm sure it would cut down on the number of stupid, useless laws that get passed.
I think the talking quickly requirement is for keeping long distance tolls to a minimum when you have to call someone from ebay. Good thinking!
FLR
"We are all geniuses when we dream"
- E.M. Cioran
Constitutional law cannot compel performance.
One cannot be forced to obtain a license to perform that which is protected under the constitution.
Just because a "law" has the appearance of "law" doesn't make it constitutional.
"It is good for governments that people do not think" --Adolf Hitler
This won't fly for long.. if at all.
All failures of the capitalist system are caused by the involvement of too much government. We need to hack government at all levels into tiny, powerless bits.
-ccm
Too much Law; not enough Order.
35 whole dollars a year. Please.
1. Rob House
2. Sell on eBay
3. Profit.
They should come up with the proper classes.
I can't tell you exactly how I know this, due to documents I've signed some years ago with a certain government I was working for...
You'd be surprised how much of that stuff on ebay is stolen property. It is a real problem for law enforcement. Unlike junk shops, you don't need to hand a document over to the police. Even if you did, it's pretty tough for them to track it across state borders. They may have changed, I worked for them pre-9/11.
I don't know if this is the reason for the "permit" or not, but I suspect it might have something to do with it.
Proof that the law is often written not to protect us, but to benefit some special interest. If it were not for that rational motivation (for the special interest it must seem rational!), the only term for this would be "MORONIC". Let's hope the legislators are too embarrassed to go through with it.
Law and the internet, its like drinking and driving it doesn't mix
Oh how conveniently they leave out the "consignment" aspect of it. Way to go, dudes.
"Slashdot: Showing the world just how gullible geeks really are"
A good argument can be made that private property is an artificial construction. Money is inarguably an artificial construct. Consequently, if money is a barrier of entry to any industry, that industry has an artificial barrier of entry. But apparently you think that the current state of technology is natural. ;)
A first year college text book on economics will clear up most of your misunderstandings.
``Capitalism is a method of allocating a resources, that includes all labour, as well as production resources, and even intellectual property. ''
Not so. At least not according to economists. Capitalism is a unique mode of production that focuses on ownership of the means of production. Labor, capital and raw goods are all inputs to the production process. Other resources, such as IP and professional services (inasmuch as they are not strictly labor) are not necessarily dealt with by capitalism.
``Have you seen the definitions listed in an economics textbook. They're usually extremely inclusive. You would be hard pressed to find a business that does not produce a good or perform a service.''
Actually, no. Production in most economic textbooks refers only to the act of producing goods from raw materials and other inputs. Many key principles of economics, for example increasing and decreasing returns to scale, do not apply to the production of services. A house is a product. Plans for building a house are not. Compact disks containing data and programs are a product. The data and programs on those disks is not.
``Well, since you don't define "perfect competition" that would be hard. ''
I shouldn't have to define it. That you don't recognize one of the basic concepts at the core of economic theory suggest that you know very little about the subject. Any basic economics textbook defines the elements of perfect competition. Its essential attributes include:
1. All producers sell identical products.
2. All firms sell only at the market equilibrium price and all consumers buy only at the market equilibrium price.
3. All consumers and producers are rational and only make decisions in their own best interest.
4. No single firm has a large enough market share to impact the market equilibrium price and no single consumer buys enough of a single good to impact the market equilibrium price.
5. Buyers know the nature of the product being sold and the prices charged by each producer.
6. There is perfect freedom of entry into and exit out of every industry.
Without each and every one of those assumptions, neoclassical supply/demand price theory doesn't work. If any single one does not hold, then supply/demand price theory doesn't hold. I'm not the one making those assumptions up. Those are the assumptions that neoclassical economic theory states must hold for perfect competition to exist. They can be found in any basic economic text book. They have zero empirical support for their existence in the real world.
``But I can certainly provide numerous examples of situations where government regulation prevent competition, and thereby reduce overall efficiency.''
Be that as it may, I can empirically demonstrate that the markets fail in several key sectors: insurance, health care, education, security, consumption smoothing, and poverty relief. Whatever the inefficiency introduced by government run health care, as but one example, one has to consider that in the US, the market takes a standard profit of over 30%. Even if a government system functioned at only 2/3 the efficiency of the market in the US, the US populace would be no worse off.
``I don't see any reason the government should be generating excessive barriers to entry.''
My point is that it is question begging to accuse the government of creating artificial barriers of entry to a market segment when that market segment is itself an artificial construction. It isn't as if money were a natural resource.
Not to mention `excessive' is a value judgment. If we're going to be objective about this discussion, value judgments have no place.
Further, efficiency in a market is only unequivocally a good thing if all of the criteria of perfect competition holds. If it isn't true that all consumers have perfect knowledge of the product they are buying and of the prices offered by all producers, then it doesn't follow that an unregulated market is what is best for the consumer. In such a situation, it frequently is the case that government regulation actually benefits the consumer.
1. Do businesses that resell on consignment (Like 2nd hand Rose a local store that sells used clothing on consignment) have to get auction licenses?
2. Does this violate Title 15 (IIRC on the title number) which requires equal access to the handicapped. Since one of the requirements is talking fast, what happens if you are mute, but running an e-bay consignment selling business?
You see the problem is as always. In order to give themselves a pay raise the politicians need more taxes. (Dang, tax and spend Republicans)
I'm sorry, I'm to tired to be witty at the moment so this message will have to do.
smash.
I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
good idea, but perhaps something tailored a bit more for online transactions vs livestock sales.
i veteam.html
BUT NO ONE should have to be licensed until these folks are, including the chick that runs the joint:
http://pages.ebay.com/aboutebay/thecompany/execut
AND they should have to be licensed in EVERY state, province, parish, county, country or other jurisdiction that requires it, anywhere and everywhere in the world that they accept members from.
My understanding (imparted to me by a lawyer working to get that retarded law overturned) is that the pass rate for the Louisiana florist certification is actually lower than the pass rate for the Louisiana bar exam. It shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone, but it still seems bizarre: In Louisiana, it is harder to become a florist than a lawyer.
Well, I just happen to have a first year college economics textbook in front of me. It is Macroeconomics by McConnell and Brue the fifteenth edition. On page 33 it describes various economic systems, including capitalism. It defines an economic system as: a particular set of institutional arrangements and a coordinating mechanism to respond to the economizing problem. It describes the economizing problem on page 22 by noting two fundamental facts
1) Societies economic wants are virtually unlimited and insatiable.
2) Economic resources are limited or scarce
It goes on to define resources on page 23 as: Land, Capital, Labour, and Entrepreneurial Ability
Therefore we can say that any economic system (including capitalism) is a method for allocating scarce resources, and that the scarce resources in question are those listed above. It never states that an economic system is a "mode of production".
I think you're reading too much into the "perfect competition" thing. It basically assumes that no seller or buyer has the market power to influence prices in the market. Achieving this is the goal of antitrust law, which I have no problem with. So save you breath.
"Without each and every one of those assumptions, neoclassical supply/demand price theory doesn't work. If any single one does not hold, then supply/demand price theory doesn't hold. I'm not the one making those assumptions up. Those are the assumptions that neoclassical economic theory states must hold for perfect competition to exist. They can be found in any basic economic text book. They have zero empirical support for their existence in the real world."
Again, you are going way overboard on this point. These assumptions not being true simply means that the market is not as efficient as possible. Of course, a market economy with the proper safeguards is still much more efficient than a command economy.
"Be that as it may, I can empirically demonstrate that the markets fail in several key sectors: insurance, health care, education, security, consumption smoothing, and poverty relief. Whatever the inefficiency introduced by government run health care, as but one example, one has to consider that in the US, the market takes a standard profit of over 30%. Even if a government system functioned at only 2/3 the efficiency of the market in the US, the US populace would be no worse off."
No, the problem here is that you are looking at a small piece of the economy and assuming it is unattached to the rest of the economy. What you fail to realize is that profits go somewhere. They don't simply disappear. If one medical care provider is able to provide the same service more efficiently, they will lower prices and increase their own profit simultaneously. The lower prices increase the accessibility to the public as a whole, while the profits are generally re-invested into the economy (unless they take it out in cash and bury it). In the case of a medical company, this means expanding operations and further increasing accessibility. The only way these profits could be considered "wasted" is if the person made the money and then wasted it. This doesn't happen much because usually people who make a lot of money now how to put it to good use.
On the other hand, if the government hand done it 2/3 as efficiently, those resources really were wasted (in the form of someone wasting their own time carrying out unnecessary labour when they could have been doing something useful and productive). So any inefficiency is bad.
"Not to mention `excessive' is a value judgment. If we're going to be objective about this discussion, value judgments have no place."
That's ridiculous, we must make value judgments in order to make decisions. Or are you one of those people who just sits around and talks all day. In any case, simply because you are unwilling to make value judgments doesn't mean I am not allowed to make them. E-bay works fine without any barriers to entry, therefore any new barriers
A license to sell on ebay? Yeah, right... This is just another example of how state corruption has gotten out of democratic control and is heading towards the mafia way of doing business e.g. requesting special licenses and permits, offering "protection", etc. It's time that we, the citizens, speak up against such nonsense and re-establish democracy.
You'd think north dakota would want to hold on to the four or five computer literate people that live there.
Wanted: Clever sig, top $ paid, all offers considered.
Agression based on religion is certainly bad. But your examples are racist.
This space is intentionally staring blankly at you
http://img416.imageshack.us/img416/889/ebay9sb.png
Deus est fatalis
Secondly - If I'm desperate enough to take my goods to someone else to sell on ebay for me, then I am desperate enough to accept the "risk".....which I would love to debate those that argue that more risk exists on ebay than exists at flea markets, garage sales, and bulletin boards where said products would typically be sold anyway.
Thirdly - Yet another example of some BS law to try to generate revenue in the politician's pockets. I defy anyone to prove to me that collections of this "tax" are going to benefit any of the citizens living in the states that are considering adopting this ridiculous law.
Fourthly - How would this be regulated? Is the "Patriot" Act going to be re-written to read "Acts of terrorism against americans, at-home, abroad, and participating in online auctions."? If you don't obtain your license are you going to be labeled a terrorist by Emporer Dubya and sent to Club Gitmo for a little "rehabilitation"?
This British engineer that I used to work with said it best; "You Americans are amazing. You have a war to rebel against taxes, and yet you have found more ways to tax yourselves than the British ever could have come up with."........Long live the queen.
this sounds kind of fishy. Most likely this is because.
1. New avenue of tax revenue
2. Family or friend owns the auctioning schools.
In Georgia we have DUI schools, courtesy of a former state rep who owned a chain of them. Politicians only protect their seats and their pocketbooks and actions like these most likely fall into the second category.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
Would you explain the "slippery slop" part to me. This could be a first step to what?
To more regulations that shut out individuals who want to run their own SOHO, Small Office Home Office, business. "Hey, since we're regulating this how about regulating that?" The USA is supposed to be the land of the free, not the land of regulations.
Two, from what I've heard some states require a license for a garage/yard sale.
Some, not all; and eBay does not count as a garage/yard sale. Usually the license for the garage/yard sale is a permit for that day
"Hey we already require licenses for garage/yard sales why not require them for eBay salers as well?" Or th reverse, "Now that we require licenses for eBay saler why not require them for garage/yard sales?" I don't know about where you live but in my area garage/yard sales may last from Firday afternoon, evening to Sunday.
How does it protect that isn't currently available?
Again, please explain...what isn't currently available? The regulation? Well yea, that is why they are trying to make it.
Laws that already protect buyers from unscrupulous salers. Isn't this supposed to be a reason the require eBay salers to have licenses? Or is it really a new tax? It's also possible to sue for fraud and what not. eBay offers protection as well, directly or indirectly, such as escrow accounts. eBay has it's own fraud investigation unit and has sued others for fraud. It's within eBay's interest to reduce or eliminate fraud, if they don't the word will get out and buyers as well as sellers will go to another auction site. Last I heard Amazon was going to try to grab some of eBay's market. A freemarket takes corrective measures.
Around $500 is not much (and I give those numbers because the license is about $35, and these types of certification classes are around 200-500; I know because I took a required Fixed Annuity license class, which is way more complex then this). Also, if they don't have the time (one or two day course) to spend on a business endeaver then they really don't have time to run a business.
Good for you, but not everyone comes from a middle class. Mine was lower class. Luckily while others in our neighberhood dropped out of school to work our mom encouraged my two sisters and I to get finish school and go to college. One reason I enlisted in the army was to save money to go to college as did my older sister. We still had to work parttime though to make ends meet. My younger sister worked fulltime while attending classes. As far as having the money to run a small business, like selling on eBay can be quite different than having money to take classes to get certified and buying a license. Requiring these will only prevent those who could do so from doing it because of the added costs. Some like my nephew only made enough to have some spending money.
This would not apply to people who are buying; only to people selling on consignment...your sister and her husband could continue to buy normally, continue to sell their personal things, but if they want to sell consignment they have to register.
Why should they or anyone else have to have a license to sell on consignment? Seems all it's for is another source of revenue. Thing is is I'd bet the costs of such regulations is more than the cost of licenses, if so then it's just another burden on taxpayers.
Yea, I know you love your nephew, but think about this. Do you really want some highschool teen responsible for thousands of dollars worth of merchandise. Also, your nephew is not allowed to be engaged in transactions such as eBay since he is under 18 and cannot enter into a legally binding contract. This is a PERFECT example of why they need such a law - really it is.
Well my nephew wasn't responsible for thousands of dollars, he didn't sale a bunch of stuff all at once nor did he sale items costing even a hundred dollars. I
Should there be a Law?