1 Million Windows to Mac Converts So Far in 2005

UltimaGuy writes to tell us AppleInsider is reporting that according to one Wall Street analyst over one million Windows users have switched to Mac in the first three quarters of 2005. It is speculated that these numbers are a direct result of the popularity gained through the iPod and related technologies in addition to security concerns from Microsoft. From the article: "According to checks with Apple Store Specialists, Wolf also said a larger than expected percentage of Windows to Mac converts appear to be purchasing Apple's higher-end systems and that their transition is fueled by the epidemic of viruses and malware on the Windows platform."

Comments

Analyze this!

[Paska]

While I am sure this is probably random guesses and whohar from this one analyst, I actually somewhat believe him from my observations from down-under (Australia).

As a young man that works for a family owned and quite large computer business I've over the years seen people generally not ask very many questions, to now every day hearing people wanting details on Macs, and how they compare to standard white boxes.

Now bundle this in with the fact that our local, and only Apple store is constantly flourishing with business as compared to a few years ago when it was rare to see more then 1 person at a time in there, you'll understand why it's possible Apple have converted so many users.

Just in my direct experience over the last few years, it's converted myself, my brother, my mother and a few friends of mine - (2 to be exact).

It's also at the point, and while I am growing up and establishing my future that me owning and operating a Apple franchise is highly possible.

I've also seen the websites I manage, which are local to our area, sky rocket from 5-10 hits per week from Mac users, to now over 250-300 unique Mac users per week and raising.

Apple are on to something here, and Steve Jobs knows it!

Re:Analyze this!

[CRC'99]

While this isn't the only reason...

My personal situation is that I have bought 2 Mac machines in the past 6 months (does that make me 2 'converts'?) because the underlying system suits my needs better.

I spend ~45% of my time using PuTTY on a Windows machine connected to a linux server doing things that I can't do on a windows laptop without a net connection. When you have this capability locally via the OSX terminal, I can do whatever I need to on the move and not be tied to an internet connection and SSH session.

The other benefits I get is that the OS is very solid, I get all the unix tools I need, and it 'just works'.

Re:Analyze this!

[tolkienfan]

I've been recommending Mac to everyone for a while now. Windows is a PITA. Even if it were true that Viruses, Trojans, Worms and Malware are only successful on Windows due to the saturation, that's still a good reason to go to something else. I can't wait to go to PS/3 w/Linux. If the price point is good enough I'll be recommending that to everyone.

Re:Analyze this!

[hackstraw]

I will also say that OS X has converted many UNIX/Linux people as well. With me being one of them. I still love UNIX and Linux for server "headless" lets get work done here stuff, but as far as I'm concerned, OS X is the best UNIX workstation and general desktop that has ever been around. Just about everybody I work with has switched from either Linux or other UNIX-like desktop or MS Windows to Macs. The only people that haven't switched were already Mac users.

I also think that current Apple software is very top notch. Apple Mail, Preview, Terminal, Soundtrack, and Keynote are all excellent. And there are others that I'm interested in trying Logic Pro. I've heard good stuff about Final Cut, and Aperture really looks nice.

Apple hardware is pretty top notch as well. Just about any notebook or desktop system looks dated or junky compared to a comparable Apple product. The same goes with software. When I see a Windows desktop or Linux one or UNIX one, it looks dated like a picture of people from the 50s or 60s with those funny glasses or a picture of a parking lot from the 70s.

I don't have too much insightful or informative to say, I don't think, but I think Apple has done wonders for computers in the past 5 years. I know they did innovate before that timeframe, but I simply did not like the pre-OS X operating system. I liked my Apple //c, but that was it until now.

I guess I could be considered a "fanboy" or whatever, but in my opinion, they have earned it. Apple is not perfect, but for many things they are the leader of how computing should be.

Re:Analyze this!

[CRC'99]

Out of curiousity, what is it that you are doing via an SSH session to a Linux box and can be done on an OS X terminal but cannot be done with cygwin on Windows?

Most of this is working on CVS stuff (do a checkout when you have a net connection, edit away, then commit when you get back). I know it can be done on Windows, but it's damn ugly.

I personally don't see the point of running cygwin when you can have it native to the OS.

All the apps I used on Windows I found replacements for OSX.

Windows -> OSX
MS Office -> MS Office
Outlook Calendar -> iCal
Trillian -> AdiumX
Outlook Express -> Mail
Firefox -> Safari (yes I know you can run Firefox on OSX, but it's DAMN slow)
ActiveSync -> Missing Sync (to sync my Windows Mobile devices)
Canon photo capture -> Image Capture (to bring photos of my digital camera)

Then of course there's all the unix tools, which are mostly there (the only one I had to source and install was wget and ncftp from memory). It takes a while to find all the replacements, but when you do, it's pretty easy to not look back.

Re:Analyze this!

[killjoe]

"The other benefits I get is that the OS is very solid, I get all the unix tools I need, and it 'just works'."

It only "just works" when you use hardware that is compatible. When I got my mac I had many devices hooked up my windows machine that didn't "just work" because the Mac did not support them. For example my hp-3100 printer won't work at all, not even a little bit. I had to go and buy another printer to hook up to the Mac. Of course the reason for that is that it's a windows only printer and CUPS has no support for it.

Macs (just like linux) "just work" when you stick with supported hardware.

Re:Analyze this!

[jma05]

>> Most of this is working on CVS stuff (do a checkout when you have a net connection, edit away, then commit when you get back). I know it can be done on Windows, but it's damn ugly.

Not really.
http://www.tortoisecvs.org/

Re:Analyze this!

[timeOday]

Macs (just like linux) "just work" when you stick with supported hardware.

I'm a dyed-in-the-wool "linux guy," but unfortunately hardware support remains my one major complaint with Linux, even when you go our of your way and pay extra for something that's claimed to work. Just skip to the last paragraph if you get bored reading my laundry list of supporting examples:

• My WG511 wifi card is supposedly supported by the prism54 driver. In fact it locks up the machine in minutes.
• My All-In-Wonder card was supported by GATOS, but the drivers weren't good enough to be usable so I ditched it for the best linux-supported TV tuner card there is, the Hauppauge. Lucky me, I got one with a new chip revision so it didn't work.
• OpenGL 3d acceleration on my T40 laptop works, but the machine locks up if you suspend to ram while hardware acceleration is enabled.
• My webcam is supposedly supported by the ov511 driver, but the images are heavily tinged with red, and the compression module that enables decent framerates doesn't seem to be supported anymore. It works OK under Windows.
• My Lego Mindstorms kit has a driver through Lejos, but oops! it doesn't work because the usb lego tower is only compatible with one of the usb driver modules (I forget which), which isn't compatible with the usb ports on my laptop.
• My Epson 1250 scanner, purchased specifically due to Linux support, has horizontal artifacts under Linux but works fine under Windows. (And descreening works.)
• My Pinnacle IR receiver is supported by Lirc, but the lircd exits randomly and without warning causing the remote to stop working.

I could go on, but the point is there's a big difference between a green X in a linux hardware compatibility list, and actually having a stable, working driver that supports all the features. And you never really know until *after* you shell out the cash. Macs have limited hardware support too, but from what I've seen if it is supported, it actually works. I stick with Linux because I like its principles, and after you get stuff going it's great. But when my parents asked what to buy for my grandpa it was a no-brainer: iMac.

Re:Analyze this!

[makomk]

Unfortunately for you, at least two of the items on your list (the WG511 and the Hauppauge card) are items for which the manufacturer's totally redesigned the hardware (and changed the drivers required) without actually bothering to change the name or model no. As you can imagine, this makes hardware compatibility lists not that useful. AFAIK, all versions of the WinTV cards are supported by either bttv or cx88 (depending on version), but not all versions of the WG511 have working Linux drivers.

Re:Analyze this!

[mforbes]

I like the idea, but it seems to me this would work better as a community-driven organization.

I.e., draft the requirements for certification of a product (i.e., 'it works when called from csh, GNOME, and KDE!), get Mandrake, Redhat, Novell/SuSE, and a couple of the other big names in the distro world to each contribute the use of their names by the licensing organization, and get hardware vendors interested in certification.

By having a meta-organization certify a device as compliant with the major distros and the most popular desktop(s), and being completely inflexible on the certification requirements (so that the cert org can acquire a decent reputation), we'd be able to enforce standards on hardware vendors who want to do business with us-- and just as importantly, we'd avoid the balkanization of hardware certifications that might otherwise occur, as each distro vendor offers its own sticker ("It works with distro!" slapped all over the box.. bleagh!)

On a side note, wasn't that a beautiful run-on sentence?

Re:Analyze this!

[mibus]

Kalc? Konqueror? Alsa? Lirc, jelo, toast, x-this, g-that, k-something-or-other...
Excel? Access? Exchange? Visual Studio? Windows? Outlook? PowerPoint? Visio? Xbox? .NET?

"switched" or "also bought"?

[conJunk]

TFA:

"If we assume that all of the growth in Mac shipments during the past three quarters resulted from Windows users purchasing a Mac, then purchases by Windows users exceeded one million," the analyst said. "Indeed, the number of Windows users purchasing Macs in 2005 could easily exceed our forecast of 1.3 million switchers in 2006."

TFA seems to be using "switched to" and "converted" interchangably with "purchased", implying that every Windows user who bought a Mac was turning his or her back on PCs. I don't think that has to be the case at all. If we assume that TFA is right about the reason for such good Mac sales (derriving from the strength of the ipod), then isn't it reasonable to assume that a fair number of those are people who are buying Macs not as their exclusive computer, but possibly in addition or in complement to their PCs?

Maybe the real signficance of this (assuming the numbers are correct) is that it's no longer uncool to own more than one computer!

Re:"switched" or "also bought"?

[dave-tx]

Excellent point. I added OSX to my arsenal this past year, but did not "switch" from Windows or Linux, both of which still get daily use by me.

Re:"switched" or "also bought"?

[plover]

I don't think the distinction between 'OR' and 'XOR' is important. That they chose a 'NOT PC' is really the telling factor. Ten years ago when "average" PCs were a thousand dollars, and "average" Macs cost more than that, very few people owned more than one computer. But now, it doesn't require a financially crippling investment just to try one.

If Apple wants to call them all "switched", well, that's fine for marketing. But just having their foot in one million more doors, that's huge no matter what. And unless Apple pulls a huge boner, I would suspect most of those million will actually switch and stay switched. (At least until they get tired of Super Breakout. :-)

Re:"switched" or "also bought"?

[nunchux]

He's right... Just an an example I have a Powermac desktop (mostly for Final Cut) and a cheapo Acer laptop for Office and a specialized application I need for work. I know at least two guys with tricked-out Windows rigs for gaming and Power or iBooks for everything else. I know a few couples who have one Mac and PC in the house-- in fact I'm sure there are hundreds of thousands if not millions of households and businesses with both systems, mixed and matched for need or personal taste.

We're well past the era where having a couple of systems at your disposal is a novelty, and this whole notion that an OS requires a pledge of allegiance is ridiculous. But I guess the Mac press would wither and die without endless self congratulation, and the PC trolls would do likewise if there was noone to hear their cries of why Macs are Teh Sux.

Re:"switched" or "also bought"?

[conJunk]

Outside of geek circles and people who have a dedicated work machine at home, I don't know one single household with multiple operating systems.

I sat here trying to think of counter examples, and failed. I haven't been in a house that *hasn't* had multiple operating systems in memory... but every single one of those falls in to your "dedicated for work or geek circle" categories.

would you say its fair to say that the number (or relative percentage of the peoplation) of people who travel in "geek circles" is significantly higher than it was 5 or 10 years ago?

Re:"switched" or "also bought"?

[njfuzzy]

You're not the right person to trust anecdotal evidence from, in this case. None of us here on Slashdot are. The average user doesn't have an arsenal of machines, he has one. So, from a macro-sales point of view, each Windows user who buys a Mac is switching. (Even if 100% of them aren't actually doing so.)

Re:"switched" or "also bought"?

[Don Negro]

Most of the geek girls I know shave at least as often as the geek guys I know.

Think about it, on average it takes 1,000 geek girls not shaving for a week to equal one RMS. I'm almost certain it's been 1,000 weeks since he last shaved.

In other news,

[killa62]

AOL has signed up 2 million new users for their newbie-friendly internet service thru their dell computer preinstalls alone.

No Suprise Here

[flakier]

I just wonder what the tipping point will be before we start seeing an exponential rise in Mac malware.

Then what, the masses start switching to BSD or Linux?

Re:No Suprise Here

[Kjella]

OS X is basically a BSD.

If you consider two house that both have a full concrete cellar, where one built a very secure retail shop (BSD server) on top, while the other built a very nice reisdential house (OS X desktop), then your analogy is correct!

Re:No Suprise Here

[Absentminded-Artist]

Well, any Mac expert will agree that there is a potential for abuse when Grandma and little Billy start downloading screen savers and games off the web on the Mac and just type in their username and password as they install indiscriminately. However, the fundamental difference between OSX and Windows is that even if malware is installed in OSX it has limited power. The vehicles for self-propogation aren't there. And even if little Billy downloaded a nifty game bundled with adware and rootkits and managed to install it on his system, his Dad and Sister's Macs wouldn't be in danger because Macs come with all ports shut off by default. Without knowing Dad's or Sis's username and password, the adware couldn't install itself across the network onto their machines. This means that virii can only spread via IM or emails through social engineering: i.e. trojans - which all systems are susceptible to. Malware may adapt to meet the Mac market, but it couldn't self-propogate the way it is doing in the Windows market.

Of course, you may counter that we have yet to see what nefarious powers OSX malware one day may have. And I'll concede the point that even though there has been no malware, spyware, adware, or viruses for OSX in the five years it's been around that doesn't mean there won't ever be those sort of apps gunning for OSX security. However, my experience on both platforms has shown me that Apple's OS is fairly robust, their attitude about security exploits is very aggressive, and there aren't the same available vectors for attack in OSX that make Windows so attractive to phishers, crackers, and other binary scum...

Onlly reason I haven't...

[trib]

... is the prohibitive cost here in Australia. The 15.2" Powerbook I want (with a spare battery and 2Gb RAM as the only upgrades) will set me back in excess of AU$4200.
I get to play with a Mac a little at work for some of my app testing, and I have serious envy of the guy whose desk it sits on...

Re:Onlly reason I haven't...

[danrik]

Your mistake is buying 2GB of RAM from Apple. They overchage for RAM unlike anything i have ever seen. Save yoruself some money and buy from someone else.

Re:Onlly reason I haven't...

[birdman64]

Just for all the non-Australians on the board, the Australian dollar is essentially the South Pacific peso. The price isn't all that bad.

Mac mini

[dots and loops]

Actually, it was the Mac mini which caused me to use the Mac as my primary home computer, not the iPod.

Re:Mac mini

[jsebrech]

Actually, it was the Mac mini which caused me to use the Mac as my primary home computer, not the iPod.

For me it was the ipod that made me seriously consider the switch, and the mac mini that drove my decision. The mini was priced at a point where I could try it out and abandon it if it didn't work for me. The plan was that if I didn't like a mac as my main desktop machine, I would use it as a server, running linux, and buy a cheapo windows system. I never did end up buying that cheapo windows system.

I'm just mad at myself for not having made the switch sooner.

Re:Mac mini

[booch]

I second that. I bought a Mac mini the day they were released. I'd said since OS X came out that I'd buy a Mac if the prices were reasonable. And to me, the $500 starting price was quite reasonable for a computer to hook up to my HDTV. (I spent nearly $800, including the upgrades.) I'd used Macs frequently before, but never thought they were worth the extra cost.

Just last week, I recommended a Mac mini to a small business owner whose PC got infected by viruses and spyware. I told them that it would be a lot easier to support a Mac, and wouldn't require all the anti-malware software. The owner ended up buying one for his receptionist as well.

I wasn't really interested in the iPods at all. In fact, I'm more interested in an iPod nano now, BECAUSE of my Mac. I'm more interested in the NeXT-based OS, because I used NeXTs in college; and the ease of use combined with UNIX underpinnings. For other people, I recommend the Mac mini because of the ease of use, reduced maintenance requirements, and lack of security issues that Windows has.

Certified A.S.S.

[k4_pacific]

Apple Store Specialists

Do you suppose these specialists abbreviate their title on their business cards?

Re:Certified A.S.S.

[Kjella]

"Apple Store Specialists"

Do you suppose these specialists abbreviate their title on their business cards?

Just be glad you didn't work as a Student Assistant (studentassistent) here in Norway. The abbriviation was stud.ass., I kid you not.

Kjella

Actually...

[kmartshopper]

Actually I'm pretty sure it's a direct result of all those dads buying their college-bound daughters Macs because they were told they wouldn't be cool without them.

Re:Is it because I bought a Mac?

[k4_pacific]

I seriously hope that I'm not lumped in that 1 million figure.

According to the article, you were the 137,565th person to switch, sorry.

Malware huh?

[Mkoms]

They must have not experienced the Adam and Eve virus... you know, the one that takes a few bytes out of your Apple. [Credit: somewhere on the internet]

Startup School

[pHatidic]

A few weeks ago I went to Startup School, a conference for hackers with entrepreneurial interests that was hosted by Paul Graham. I'd say 80% of the people there with laptops had macs. It was one of the most amazing things I'd ever seen, to look back from the front of the room and see an entire roomful of Apple computers. I think Paul is right that most of the new Apple users aren't switchers, but rather are switch-backers. I for one am extremely happy with my powerbook that I bought two years ago, switching back from XP, so I don't think I will ever become a switch-back-backer. The amazing thing is that even though this computer 22 months old it feels brand new, rechargable battery issues aside. I have never had to reformat the hard drive, remove a virus, or uninstall any adware. I know that it is theoretically possible to get viruses on an Apple and there have been proof of concepts, but personally I don't give a damn about theory. All I care about is my last two years of "just works" computing.

Re:Scanned

[general_re]

I just scanned the article but where did they get these numbers from?

Like many analysts, he pulled it straight from his butt. Or, more specifically, he gathered a few anecdotes from Apple salesmen and extrapolated them to cover the entire universe.

Ah, but how many Linux to MacOS converts?

[Bazzalisk]

Me for one ... my new machine will be the first I've had since 1997 for which Linux is not the main OS.

Re:Ah, but how many Linux to MacOS converts?

[MoOsEb0y]

I actually switched from Linux to MacOS because I was sick and tired of fighting with my system configuration everytime I updated my packages or wanted to install new software. OS X allows me to run all of the same OSS apps that I loved on Linux (VNC, SSH, irssi, etc) while at the same time being a joy to use.

I first was exposed to OSX from the leak to x86. After that, I loved it so much I got a Mac Mini (the first mac I've seen which I could actually afford).

Re:Ah, but how many Linux to MacOS converts?

[bcrowell]

If TFA's speculation about the reasons for the switching are correct, then it's very bad news for Linux on the desktop:
their transition is fueled by the epidemic of viruses and malware on the Windows platform.
In other words, these are people who are finding that maintaining an internet-connected Windows computer properly requires too high a level of geekdom -- geekdom being defined as technical skill plus interest in spending time applying that skill. The level of geekdom (skill+time) required to use Linux is still much higher than the level required to use Windows or MacOS X, so we should expect Linux's share of the desktop to suffer for the same reason that MacOS's is apparently increasing.

(Of course, the reasons why Linux requires high geekdom are different from the reasons why Windows requires it. On Windows, you're using a system that's designed to be insecure, and lots of your geek points are spent on fighting that. On Linux, it's issues like not being able to install it successfully on a laptop, or not being able to figure out how to get a printer working, or not understanding that X-Windows cut and paste doesn't work the same way as control-X/control-V cut and paste. But it doesn't matter that geekdom is required for different reasons -- Linux still requires higher geekdom.)

The Mac Demographic (Re:Is it because I bough...?)

[Anonymous Coward]

"I don't particuarly care for OS X at all... it's such a different UI for me that I'm just not all that comfortable using it."

Well, here's the problem. Mac OS X, and in fact the entire Apple experience, is intuitive for a certain kind of person. Artists, fashion mavens, leftists, and other creative personalities can sit down with a 12-inch PowerBook running the iLife suite on Tiger and comprehend its sensitive, tasteful aesthetic. It's a rare instinct, this appreciation for beauty and truth; accountants and other such pencil-pushers haven't a prayer.

In summary, unattractive squares should stick to Linux and Windows. Macs are for different thinkers.

* * * gallery updated 5 Nov. 2005 * * *

I'm a statistic.

[heresyoftruth]

My hubby and I are two of those converts out there. After the zillionth windows disaster, we saved up and got a set of powerbooks. I can't say the iPods had anything to do with it because we didn't get a set of those until after we got the powerbooks. I always hated the overzealous mac lover, but it appears I just bought my way into the cult. I can't be happier to have switched, as I haven't had one problem since February. That's definitely longer than I went without having to tweak my PC box.

good for your computer

[observer7]

an apple a day keeps the viruses at bay

And is anyone keeping track...

[Lead Butthead]

And is anyone keeping track of the number of people that switched BACK after discovering that they have to re...invest substantial amount of money into Mac version of software titles they already own for the x86?

apples and oranges

[micromuncher]

There probably is no correlation between people buying iPods, people using Wintel, and people buying Macs...

The lifecycle of a PC is about 2 years. A mac is about 5 years. Its probable that this is just a turnover of pre-existing mac users.

Nobody I know or has met who has a Mac bought one because of an iPod.

One one person I've met has bought a Mac because of Windows issues... and they were also a frustrated Linux user.

However, I've met a few people who have bought Macs just because they look cool, fit in with their Ikea furniture, and are trendy.

(I'm a former Mac user. Now I use Windows, mostly for games. Not that I want to... I had the choice between starving MacOS developer, average Wintel developer, or corpulent enterprise Java developer. After starving for a number of years, I chose the corpulent route.)

ipods success

[oddbudman]

To me this increase in sales can be somewhat attributed to the success of the ipod. The ipod certainally has brought a whole lot more exposure to apple in general over the last 12 months. And it's not like OSX is a bad OS for them to be pushing, if someone is curious and checks it out they probably won't be too dissapointed. Couple that with the fact that Windows XP is a few years old and is starting to seem a little dated. Windows will probably strike back a little come Vista but I guess only time will tell.

Mini

[squison]

I'm sure a lot of those 'converts' were due to the Mac Mini. I know, for me, the #1 reason why I never even tried owning a Mac was because I wasn't willing to spend $1-3k to try something out. $500 is a lot easier to spend than $2k for a PowerMac.

Then you have an ever-growing application support for OSX. Large games like World of Warcraft coming with a Mac client at release surely can't hurt.

Plus, damn if the iBooks don't look a lot nicer than my drab, boring Thinkpad.

Never ass/u/me anything...

[dada21]

TFA: "If we assume that all of the growth in Mac shipments during the past three quarters resulted from Windows users purchasing a Mac, Or Mac users wanted a second PC, or their kids or parents needed their first or new immigrant H1B workers bought them. How can they assume these numbers are ex-Win users?

appear to be purchasing Apple's higher-end systems They appear to be? So they might not be? Huh?

fueled by the epidemic of viruses and malware on the Windows platform. Based on what figures? Last year it was "fueled by better video editing" and before that "fueled by better graphics editing" as sales people only mimicked their pitches.

the firm on Monday downgraded shares of the company's stock to "Hold," saying it believes Apple shares are now "fully valued." Because the 1 million Windows converts are all that will convert? Not only shit can be pulled from an analyst's ass.

"During the past year, in response to the introduction of breakthrough new iPods and Macs and outstanding financial results, we've doubled our price target." And even $61 is a worthless number, offering no real income (profit dividends, interest, commitment sales, etc). Take your stock money, start your own business, and stop gambling.

Still, the analyst hedges his bets, explaining Apple's "frenetic pace of innovation" could present new opportunities,"The ship is not sinking, but it might. It could also fly possibly." These people are worthless.

I have friends who are analysts, and they're worthless, too. My Costa Rican bookie gives me good advice based on the pros. These analysts either give neutral advice, or just enough so that mom's stock will go up.

As a Mac user

[Overly Critical Guy]

These are interesting times to be a Mac user. It's incredible to say it, but Apple is actually on the upswing after a decade of total Windows dominance. Dell's revenues and sales are down while Apple's keep growing beyond the industry average.

As a Mac user myself, I'll just say this. I don't want an Apple monopoly dominating computing; I would just like an Apple marketshare at around 35%-45% again. It would make for a much healthier market and would mean a lot more applications for Mac, instead of waiting a year later for a third-party port.

So before you Mac-hating Linux kids start flaming another Apple article, most of us just want less Windows domination. That wretched pile of crap has wasted more time and money on reboots, endless "configuration wizards," registry cleanings, spyware cleanings, resource-sucking antivirus software, and so on. It's so bad that a lot of normal people are afraid of computers and their difficulty--they don't realize it's Windows that is difficult. Computers don't have to be.

Re:As a Mac user

[wiggles]

Be careful what you wish for. The larger the marketshare that Apple has, the bigger the target their platform becomes. You'll not only see ports of your favorite apps, but crapware as well.

Re:As a Mac user

[Overly Critical Guy]

Thankfully, there's a culture of excellence in software design on the Mac (and a thriving shareware market you can actually make money in, unlike on Windows). If by crapware, though, you're referring to spyware, I dispute the claim that Windows' saturation is the cause of its woes. For instance, OS X has no open ports by default and doesn't even enable the root account. However, Windows users got to suffer through, for instance, Blaster as it took advantage of full access to RPC. Windows is a poorly designed system that everyone was hoping would get a rewrite with Longhorn. Unfortunately, that did not happen. It looks like the registry is never, ever going to die. That's too bad, because the consumers suffer because of it.

It's just that spyware and trojans just don't have anywhere to go on OS X, due mostly to built-in UNIX security measures. You can't even install something or have an app modify system settings without a quick password prompt.

Re:As a Mac user

[klubar]

Dell revenues are not growing as fast on a much larger base. Dell sales are $52.7 Billion. Apple sales are just shy of $14 billion.

It's a lot easier to have high growth on a smaller base.

Re:As a Mac user

[AKAImBatman]

Oh, I don't think most Slashdot readers hate modern Macs. That'd be kind of dumb, after all.. most of us are pretty into Unix.

There are still quite a few, though. I'm thinking those are the people who haven't yet pulled their heads out and realized that OS X isn't the same thing as OS 9.

Being a Mac hater for most of my life, I can attest to the difficulty of pulling one's head out when it comes to the Mac. But with all the raving of fans (and $$$ pouring into the market) it became hard for me to ignore.

All I can say is, once you go Mac OS X, everything else seems inferior. And I mean EVERYTHING. :-)

Re:As a Mac user

[ComputerizedYoga]

on the other hand, if an app wants to write to your homedir/dotfiles instead of sticking itself in system locations, it can do it. How many of the "it just works, I like it" crowd have EVER looked at what dotfiles live in their home directory?

Most spyware comes from one of two places: renegade ActiveX or piggyback installations.

While the mac and *nix platforms don't have activeX to worry about, nothing's preventing people from bundling mac spyware with otherwise useful apps, and if the app brings something that people want, they'll ignore the stuff that comes with it. How do you think Gator operates?

It's just that nobody's decided to go after the mac market trying to turn shareware into adware or negotiating bundle deals, or even learning to write mac malware yet. Maybe that's the "excellence" you're talking about. But there's a big emphasis to be put on the "yet" part of that.

The mac platform is not without its security holes, and those things that compromise a high privilege process don't NEED to prompt you to install themselves everywhere.

Re:As a Mac user

[Decameron81]

"It's just that nobody's decided to go after the mac market trying to turn shareware into adware or negotiating bundle deals, or even learning to write mac malware yet. Maybe that's the "excellence" you're talking about. But there's a big emphasis to be put on the "yet" part of that.

The mac platform is not without its security holes, and those things that compromise a high privilege process don't NEED to prompt you to install themselves everywhere."

Maybe. But if people were to make their decisions based on "maybes" then everyone would keep running Windows with a ton of spyware and viruses since it's theoretically just as safe as any other system.

But, whatever the reason, running OS X right now is safer that running Windows.

Re:As a Mac user

[lar3ry]

I'm one of those "Linux users converted to Mac."

My first Linux box was before TCP/IP worked reliably on it... before X Window worked. ST-506 drive (hundreds of MB!) and 256KB memory modules.

My first Mac box was a Mac Plus (well, I also had an Atari ST that had the Mac emulator running on it).

I've always liked the Mac software, but got drawn in (and still am drawn in) to the Open Source / freeware / "All Software Has To Be Free" mantra.

For fourteen years, I did my damnedest to make my Linux desktop experience as good as it could be.

Then, I decided to go Mac again. Mac Mini... 512MB.

It's not the fastest platform, nor is it the most programmable. However, it is the most consistent one that I've found. I'm back with a Mac, and use Linux as a server O/S and firewall.

I wonder what would happen if I got a G5 system, or, peraps, should I wait until the Intel Macs arrive?

If I have to design my own system (motherboard, case, RAM, etc.) then it's a no-brainer... Linux wins. If I have to purchase a complete system (or one for a non-computer person), it would almost definitely be a Mac.

I'm really happy that the state of the art has gotten us here!

Re:As a Mac user

[SideshowBob]

Not as developer friendly? You've got to be kidding, being developer friendly was NeXTStep's raison d'etre. If you think that you can't do what .Net does on a Mac, you haven't seen WebObjects, which has been doing the web based app server stuff for a decade or so.

Re:As a Mac user

[eakthecat]

It's not just games that need Admin credentials to run. Lots of software companies ignore LUA and require their Windows software to run as Admin. The two examples that come to mind are Quickbooks and the ATI DVD player. Now, there is a registry hack that lets Quickbooks run LUA, but it is a) unsupported and b) virtually impossible for non-geeks to understand how to implement. As for the ATI DVD player, well... I discovered this when I set up a LUA user 'Public' on my living room PC, so that guests could surf the web, play music and DVDs without having Admin rights on the computer. Everything worked except the DVD player, I called ATI tech support, explained the problem and was told (by a very snotty frenchman) that ATI only supported their software when running as an Administrator. He further 'explained' to me that the DVD player not working was a) my fault for trying to run it using restricted permissions and b) Microsoft's fault for offering users the choice to use a computer without administrative permissions.

Needless to say, my next video card will not be from ATI.

Ranting aside, it seems to me that Microsoft shot itself in the foot with this one. Yes, it is possible to run LUA on Windows and Microsoft best practices whitepapers do advocate writing for restricted permissions. Then they turn around and give all new users administrative bits*, combine that with all users always having administrative bits in previous versions of Windows (95, 98, ME), and you get developers who have been forced into the mindset of writing applications for Admin only. Don't believe me? Look at Apple. like the one-button mouse forcing good UI design, new users not being root by default and having to sudo every time you need root bits forces application designers to plan for LUA. In turn, the majority of applications for the Mac (including those that play DVDs or are written by Intuit) run with restricted credentials.

So the thirty second summary: Granted, both Windows and OSX allow LUA. The design of Windows, however, has trained designers to ignore security best practices and write for Administrative users only. Because fo this, LUA effectively does not exist for Windows home users. That, and it's not just brain-dead game makers - in order to use useful/worthwhile/important** software on Windows, you often need to be Admin. This, in turn, makes it so that Windows computers effectively are only useful if you're Admin.

Just my two cents.
-eak

* I say Home Uesrs because this really only applies to stand-alone machines. Once you get to SBS domains, your user templates encourage LUA, and if you're setting up an enterprise domain... Well, if you don't understand/implement LUA, you're not qualified to implement said domain. Then again, I would argue that the majority of compromised Windows machines are those of Joe Home User.

** Anyone who thinks games are as useful/worthwhile/important as, say, financial software really needs to get out of Mommy's basement more often.

Re:As a Mac user

[jcr]

Just to expand on that a bit: Apple's online store, and the iTunes music store are both WebObjects apps.

-jcr

Re:As a Mac user

[nautical9]

You just described exactly where I was at earlier this year. I had the unfortunate experience of maintaining a Mac lab in highschool, and used a few during my university years as well. All pre-OSX days. I couldn't stand working on them, with their horrible multitasking and memory management. I just didn't get the appeal of the Mac when compared to Unix or even Windows.

But after hearing all the fan-boys on this and other sites, and doing a fair bit of research into Mac OSX, I figured it was time to try out a powerbook.

After a few months of using it exclusively, I can't stand working with Windows or even KDE/Gnome now. A stock OSX Tiger install is incredibly useful (Exposé, Spotlight, iLife, Dashboard, and all that BSD goodness through Terminal.app). But after installing a few amazing (and free) utilities, it's the closest to desktop utopia I've ever been:

• QuickSilver - The most useful app I've ever used - hard to describe, but think of it as a command-line interface to the GUI (some use it as just an application launcher, but it's so much more).
• Fink - A BSD Ports implementation for OSX - think of Debian and Gentoo meets OSX - thousands of F/OSS apps just a command away from installing
• XAMPP - Apache/MySQL/PHP/Perl in a simple to install and run package.
• VLC - video watching without having to worry about installing dozens of codecs.

Never thought I'd say it, but I guess I'm one of the fan-boys now.

I still have a Windows box for gaming (although I have to admit there are far more games available for OSX than I imagined), and a few Linux boxes for serving, development, routing, etc. Although I now have all my development stuff running locally on my powerbook, so the linux boxes are less useful these days.

My message to people on the fence about switiching: give it a shot. It's not perfect, but it's leaps and bounds ahead of anything else.

Re:As a Mac user

[RedBear]

While the mac and *nix platforms don't have activeX to worry about, nothing's preventing people from bundling mac spyware with otherwise useful apps, and if the app brings something that people want, they'll ignore the stuff that comes with it. How do you think Gator operates?

(Emphasis mine.)

This is the main problem on the Windows platform. Not that the system is inherently less secure (which it is), but that the market consists of a ton of users who are willing to tolerate having their machine infected with crap just to get some worthless "goodies". Of course it isn't impossible to make spyware/adware/malware for OS X (or Linux), but here is what happens in those communities, as opposed to the glutted-with-crapware Windows community: If there is any inkling of spyware, adware or any sort of malware in a piece of software, either it never appears for download on the sites where people go to download new software or it gets removed very quickly due to the huge community outcry, and that software author will never be trusted again. If a Mac software site consistently allows bad software to be listed and available for download, the users will quickly go elsewhere, permanently. Until the Mac community gets much larger and contains a lot more of the braindead general population, they simply will not tolerate their expensive and wonderful machines getting hijacked by bad software.

Secondly, and perhaps even more important, if you do get infected with something it is ABSURDLY easy to do a clean reinstallation of Mac OS X WITHOUT hosing all of your preferences and important installed software. In comparison in the Windows world it is an absolute nightmare to have to reinstall the OS because you know you will have to reinstall every piece of software that uses the Registry, which is darn near everything. So your average Windows user limps along trying to fix things piece by piece, maintaining a broken, infected system that just keeps getting slower and more broken. The Mac user, on the other hand, does a quick backup of Home and Applications and nukes the thing and starts over. An experienced Mac user can be back up and running as if nothing happened within a couple of hours.

So, wake me up when Apple has 25%+ market share and the malware/spyware writers are "targetting" the Mac platform as enthusiastically as they target Windows. My bet is that even with that much market share the malware will have little effect on Macs as a whole because the community they spring from is just too different and won't put up with it. Even the idiots among them will have their hands held and be constantly led away from doing what they might have done had they still been using Windows and downloading crap from just anywhere without thinking about it.

Portable data Vs Portable programs

[systems]

I think, as time pass by, and more developer and systems makers realize that as long as the data is portable (.pdf, .html, .jpg, .mp3, .ogg) the system used to access the data becomes less and less relevant, I think more ppl may switch to alternative platform as they learn that their data will move with them.

i'm a contributor

[xikzantric]

I started working w/ a graphic design group (I do web coding) about 10 months ago. All they had was Macs and I was forced to use one. I began the job having an intrinsic hatred for OSX, but within about a month I was hooked. I've found it to be a much easier system to navigate and get things done in, and now use it exclusively (except having to use a PC to work with a client's PPT file here and there). Since then, I have also converted 8 friends to Macs. Apple should pay me a commission :)

Why people switch?

[Kildjean]

I'm 35 yrs old. I started my life in the computer business with an apple IIe, then moved to windows, and stayed there, til just about June 29, 2005, when I bought a MacMini, because I simply said, "I gotta have one of those", and it changed the way I work, the way I do most of my things inside a computer. In a way it returned me my passion to work in a computer environment again.

Sure, over 90 million computers world wide run Microsoft Windows. We run this OS because its not a choice, Windows is basically imposed in our daily lives, even our careers. As a computer engineer I know that. Go ahead and put in your resume, you only know Mac. You will never find a job... (at least on a computer oriented career), Windows rules all our lives and what do we get of it? More viruses, faulty hardware, lack of security and the same ol' beige box feeling we have had since we laid our hands on a PC for ever. I mean, anyone my age knows that the first PC they laid their hands on was a beige tower of some bulky size. And that was at least 15 years ago. Take a look how cars change in 15 years...

Then look at apple... everynow and then, they shove out a new computer design, always pushing technology to an edge, first with the flat panel imacs, then the ipods, and then OSX, which is basically what everyone has tried to do with Linux. OSX to me is the embodiment of Linux on the Desktop.

I just know that since i switched to apple, I dont worry anymore of viruses, nor i worry if my e-mail has some bundled adware into it, and like many other people have said in this post, it could eventually happen, but right now it hasn't happened for me.

I recently dug myself deeper into apple. I bought a G5 Dual 2.0ghz and have it running with 4gb ram, and the works. Sure i admit i miss my games on the PC... although i play World of Warcraft, without any problems on my powermac, and any other games I play, i play'em on my Xbox, and eventually my 360. My GF who is also an Engineer uses windows because of her daily work, but she uses my mac everynow and often and she likes it a lot... im sure she will want one once we move in toghether.

Finally, i don't know what future Vista will offer anyone. Everything Vista does, OSX does for me. Plus OSX is far more secure than Vista will ever be. The Software part, well its coming around... At least anything i need to use or do I can do it on my mac... no biggy there. Just think other companies should try to develpe more ingenuity and true innovation like Apple does. Instead of stealing ideas only to develop them shittierly than they are originally developed. OSX has brought apple out of the dark ages into the light. I just wish we could all enjoy of the benefits this brings forward.

Now let me go back to my GF and keep raising those GF Points up... I want a video ipod... :)

Re:Why people switch?

[revscat]

I have heard this over and over again. "Macs don't have viruses because they don't have marketshare." I have seen people saying that for years, and it's starting to grow extremely stale. Macs are inherently more secure machines. They are not susceptible to viruses. Until proven otherwise, this remains a truism.

I have had a PowerMac for almost two years now. I have done nothing special in regards to security other than the Security Updates. I have never had a single problem, nor have I see any reported. Until shown otherwise, the belief that OS X is susceptible to viruses is a matter of faith, not fact.

Slashdot OS X Typo award winner!

[Overly Critical Guy]

Hello, you've won the "Slashdot OS X Typo" award.

You see, in every Apple article on Slashdot, someone always makes a typo when writing three simple letters: OS X. Scientists are divided as to why it's so difficult for Slashdotters to correctly spell this very simple combination of letters (pronounced "Oh Ess Ten," the tenth version of Mac OS).

Common typo variations are:

1.) OS-X
2.) OS/X
3.) OSx
4.) OSX
5.) OSX86

Related typos include:
6.) MAC (instead of Mac)

Yours, sir, is the first insane typo of many in the comments to come when it comes to typing three simple letters: OS X. Be grateful in your glorious splendor! You are a scholar and a gentleman. Good day.

Re:Time to sell Apple Stock

[njfuzzy]

"Apple: Going out of business since 1984"

I bought one, but I'm no convert

[Jeff Molby]

I bought a Mac Mini because it was a cheap way to get a debugging machine for my web app. That was solely to see how it looks in a Mac browser. I still rely on Windows for everything else. I hope they didn't count me.

Re:The Mac Experience - not all its cracked up to

[MKalus]

Have you had a look at Pages? That may just fit your bill?

Mac Gaming

[Zobeid]

Blizzard have supported the Mac long before WoW, that hasn't changed. Game support for Mac is still crummy on the whole, that hasn't changed either. In fact, WoW is one of a remarkably small minority of MMOGs that run on the Mac. I can might near count them on one hand.

SWG? No. . . EQ2? No. . .

Does anyone remember when Bungie was first and foremost a Mac developer? We were all talking about how Halo was going to sell Macs. So much for that plan.

Does anyone remember when Connectix Virtual Gamestation was going to make the Mac an attractive gaming platform, because it could run most Playstation games? Then Sony bought CVGS from Connectix and buried it.

I understand Civilization 4 and Call of Duty 2 were recently released for the PC. How many months will it be before they appear on Macintosh? How many features (like editors) will be left out of the Mac version, while we still have to pay full price?

So . . . I really don't see any upswing in Mac game development, much as I might wish for it. Computer gaming still completely revolves around Microsoft (and DirectX), Macs aren't on the radar screen of most game companies -- and if the Mac platform does accidentally get something good, there are always entities like Microsoft and Sony standing ready to buy and/or bury it.

I'm really not trying to rip on the Mac here at all. I'm just being realistic and telling what experience has shown. Games are the one big area where the Mac is weak, and I don't see anything in the works to change it. Apple could do some things to change it, but gaming just isn't in their corporate DNA.

why don't you..

[ilf]

put linux on your laptop?

Re:why don't you..

[CRC'99]

put linux on your laptop?

I was waiting for someone to ask this - and the reason is very simple. As a desktop OS, Linux sucks. If you look at what Windows and OSX has going for it, you'll quickly note that it's simple and easy to do just about anything.

I think WiFi on my Dell notebook is about the best example that I can come up with off the top of my head. it's a dual band 802.11a/b/g card for which Linux drivers just don't exist. So I have to wrap them in an NDIS wrapper, and hope that they work that way. Then there's the annoyance of having X not like using 1920x1200 straight away as a desktop res (the LCD's native res). Then I have issues with sound (alsa isn't the be all and end all), then there's always something else to fix.

Bottom line? You spend more time getting things to work than using the actual system. This might be fine if you want to do this kind of stuff as a technical challenge, but personally, I just want to be able to use my system for what I need to get done, and not have to worry about half of the crap I mentioned above.

I did some work quite a while ago getting newer ALSA drivers working on the xbox-linux project, and it's not as pretty as it could be. I'm no newbie to linux, but damn, I wish sometimes I didn't have to do half the crap I had to just to get a decent, working system. Enter OSX.

Re:why don't you..

[Trelane]

So what you're saying is that we need a reliable Linux hardware vendor?

I agree totally.

Re:why don't you..

[xrobertcmx]

I've done that on a Dell 5150 and let me tell you it isn't the easiest way of doing things. Up until SuSE 9.3 no big deal, drop the DVD in and all was well, but with 10 there was a major issue with ReisersFS and ACPI for some reason. With Fedora Core 3 the tools never showed up that allowed for anything other then it running at 100% until 4 came out. Kubuntu works kind of, for some reason on the 5th or 6th boot admin controls just stop working. And you can forget hardware accelleration and hybernate. SuSE 9.3 is still on mine and as a desktop it is great, but it doesn't have a hope of competeing with a ibook or powerbook.

Re:why don't you..

[idlake]

As a desktop OS, Linux sucks.

Linux is a great desktop OS: KDE and Gnome have all the functionality you would want in a modern desktop OS, they are easy to use, attractive, and reliable.

I think WiFi on my Dell notebook is about the best example that I can come up with off the top of my head. it's a dual band 802.11a/b/g card for which Linux drivers just don't exist.

So, you bought a laptop that isn't well supported by Linux; that's your fault, not Linux's. If you buy your laptop from a Linux laptop vendor, Linux just works out of the box.

Re:why don't you..

[TClevenger]

WiFi is a great example. When I open the lid on my Powerbook, it wakes up correctly EVERY time, and before I can even get my screensaver password entered, it has reconnected to my Netgear WiFi router, reestablished all my SSH connections to my Linux servers, checked my POP server for mail and reconnected my iChat to AIM.

I also can apply patches and updates without worrying about breaking anything, and I can continue to get fully supported OS and application updates for years (yes, even with the Intels coming.)

Don't get me wrong; I love Linux. It definitely has its place (i.e. my servers.) I just don't have the time to play Russian Roulette with compatibility.

Re:why don't you..

[NixLuver]

I've been a Linux user since 1995, and have been various kinds of a linux zealot for years. I love KDE, and Gnome is OK. I have come to despise windows, but I have been using windows on a PC because of the audio utilities; and it's too much trouble to reboot into linux to do other stuff, then boot back into windows to fire up Tracktion or Ableton Live. And before anyone gets excited, yes, I have Agnula/Demudi installed, yes, it's cool, but it's NOT Tracktion or Ableton live.

And anyone that tells you that Linux is a great desktop OS in a thread about Mac OS X simply hasn't had enough experience with OSX. I'm a convert, and as soon as I can sell my m-audio Delta 1010LT and my 3Ghz HT P4, I'll buy a firewire audio interface and be done with it. I have tracktion and Ableton Live on Mac, and they both work approximately the same interface wise on the Mac. On Mac I can also use lightwave - and blender isn't close; I can use Adobe CS 2 - and the Gimp is cool, but not cool enough to compete with CS (Illustrator - no comparable vector package for linux). NVU is available for linux, and I use it there, but it's also available for Mac, and so is Macromedia Studio MX, Fireworks, etc. And all with a *nix underbelly that is only one click away, without any of the annoying split-personality disorder of cygwin - which I *LOVE* on my x86 work-supplied laptop, where it's my only reprieve from windows hell, but doesn't come close to the overall functionality of OSX. Unison (the newsreader) beats the living daylight out of ANY other newsreader - and I own licenses to NBPro and NewsLeecher; Keynote stands head and shoulders above any other presentation software package I've seen - and to bring a mac to a staff meeting for a presentation is a joy. While the other presenters are noodling with their video configurations and trying to get things to work, I plug in the projector, the mac recognizes it and brings it up, and keynote presents me with the control console on the powerbook's screen while the actual presentation appears on the projector. Add to that the fact that I have yet to have OS X crash on me, and you've got the stability of Linux with the operational latitude and software choice (nearly) of Windows.

Servers? Give me Linux. Desktop? OS X all the way.

Re:No Surprise Here

[Laitment]

Actually, it's based off of the Darwin operating system, and uses the XNU kernel, which is based off of both the Mach and a customized version of the FreeBSD kernel.

We feel exactly the same!

[Alejo]

Nike shoes are so much faster. I will never use Adidas again.

Time Value of Money

[alexhmit01]

What was the cost different to get a comparable Apple laptop. What do you value your free time at... for me its a lot, because I don't have much... Given the choice between an extra $200 for the machine (and generally, Dell charges the same as Apple for the same machine, but Apple only has limited options, so you buy more machine... i.e. to upgrade the screen, you get a processor upgrade, that kinda thing), and a few hours of tinkering, I reach for my Amex...

It all depends if you'd rather have two-four hours for yourself or a little cash in your pocket...

My point on the Apple vs. Dell... any time I took an Apple machine, then went to Dell and priced an "equivalent" purchase, the price was +/- $50... however, if you start with the Dell, and then price out the equivalent Apple, it is usually a bit more... but you get stuff you may not need, but that is because Apple has limited models...

The Mac Mini is a GREAT office desktop (we have 8, probably going to get 4-5 more)... and its dirt cheap... Once you price out the equivalent Dell and add in XP Pro (home is worthless for a business workstation), and a few other minor upgrades, the mini tends to be $25-$50 less, which is a great deal.

Re:Time Value of Money

[nathanh]

It all depends if you'd rather have two-four hours for yourself or a little cash in your pocket...

You're deluding yourself if you think MacOS X doesn't require just as much tinkering. I'm a long suffering Mac user who has recently spent a few weeks with Tiger. I've easily spent 20 hours in the past month installing third party software like VLC because Tiger won't play DivX, finding various tweaks on macosxhints (eg, disable dashboard which is a memory sucking vampire), hunting down a crashing issue with ARD (had to replace it with OSX VNC), mucking about with configuration settings that have retarded defaults, and so on and so forth.

It's amusing that the GP commented on the multimedia keys, because attached to this Mac I have a Logitech keyboard and the multimedia keys don't work. Not even with the official Logitech drivers. Yet they work perfectly on Linux and Windows.

So don't give me any crap about Macs saving you "time and money". I use all three of the holy trinity quite heavily - Windows, Linux and Mac - and they are all about as sucky as each other.

Re:Time Value of Money

[JulesLt]

It's also much like comparing Ford with BMW and going 'well this Ford's got the same engine size and same dimensions so why is the BMW more expensive'.
(And before you ask, we have a Ford car, because it does the job - to go 14 miles a day to and from work. If I drove on a motorway all day, I'd invest in something better. This may be the main reason many consumers go for the cheapest computer they can get).

The focus on cost and cost alone is the main thing that keeps Dell in corporates and many schools (schools should know better as they could actually USE the bundled Mac software more effectively, but then they also get steep site-licence discounts on Office, et al). For corporates even reliability isn't a massive issue - I don't know many places where people are allowed to use their C drives any more - desktops are effectively fat clients for running heavy software.

After stepping out of the Windows speed-race, I've been perfectly happy with a Mac Mini. Again, I've been told I could get a Windows PC for half the price, even a small factor one, but - duh - that wasn't the reason why I got one. I do think it's telling that price, rather than compatibility, is now becoming the main factor cited.
(Actually, that's a return to the mid-80s - price was what put most people off Apple then, creating room for Atari and Commodore Amiga. No one wanted a PC at home).
The main criticism that I still think is valid, are people who just don't like being locked into one hardware vendor - and it is true that PC owners have the option of going from cheap and nasty to as powerful as you want to pay. It's also true that most problems with Windows stability stem from drivers and it seems to be possible to build a stable configuration - my Evesham PC was rock-solid for years until I started adding and upgrading cards. On the other hand, we had a cheap laptop that has been nothing but trouble.

And I would concur with the posting above about the Mini's potential as an office desktop - on it's noise factor alone it could be a revolution. Someone on our helpdesk asked me, on seeing my home setup and how much they cost 'why don't we use these at work'. As our helpdesk spent 80% of the day in Unix terminal sessions and the rest in mail, it would be quite feasible.

Re:Just another Apple myth

[Fahrvergnuugen]

Why do asshole posts like the one above get modded up?

If you want actual evidence showing the relative success of the companies (and thus proving the parent has his head up his ass), click this

Full page here

What's not reported in TFA...

[Kozar_The_Malignant]

Is the number of Mac users who have switched to Windows, Linux, or BSD in the same time period. Since Intel or AMD based machines are considerable cheaper, there may be a significant number of Apple users who switch when it is time to replace. Or not, but the article certainly ignores that.

Also, for those rare types who read TFA, this is one of those nice sites that doesn't let you return to /. with your back button, at least in Firefox.

3 Older Gals Have Bought iBooks

[BoRegardless]

due to my recommendation in the last year, including my wife. The difficulty each of those people saw with using Windows and keeping it working deterred them from buying their own PC. For all 3 of them, the iBooks are a literal dream, with only the normal learning curve resulting in some study of training books and DVDs. It has also been almost totally painless for me, as I don't have any significant support to deal with on these machines.

Re:Security is a poor reason to switch...

[phillymjs]

I guess some people just cant handle the minimal amount of work involved in staying secure...

Yes, we call those people "average users," and they are legion.

Dell vs Apple pricing

[bradleyland]

That's almost laughable. I'm an independent IT consultant, and I'd like to personally thank Dell for their pricing strategy: slap together a box with 256 MB of RAM and Windows XP, advertise in flyers showing said system along side a 15" LCD for $499, profit!!

The scenario goes down something like this. Customer receives Dell, is confounded by how slow it is, and is pissed that they received a CRT, not the flat panel pictured (a la asterisk "for just $179 more..."). Customer calls me, I come out and explain that 256 MB of RAM is no way to run Windows XP, show them the task manager with pagefile usage of 415 MB, they do the math (415 MB > 256 MB). Customer pays me $75/hr to install marked up RAM and a flat panel monitor since they won't talk to Dell anymore.

Michael Dell, we salute you!

PS - Posted from my 20" iMac.

Everyone loves dishonestly, but analyst is a fool

[gordo3000]

you know, it is only 5 years after the internet bubble burst. don't go forgetting about that great example of how revenues are not linked to stock prices already. I can't handle another run up and crash.

Anyways, none of you are being honest about the situation. Yes, apple has had growing revenues over the last few years which have really helped it grow its stock price. But the major run up in prices has nothing to do with the Personal computer market that the arguments seem to center on. almost every analyst attributes the run-up to record profits due mainly to the Ipod, not sales of computers. It has seen over the last two years an increase from 6.2 to 13.9 billion in revenue.

Needed in any honest discussion is where apple is coming from. 4 years ago they posted a net loss. Since then, they have seen incredible earnings grown, especially in the past year(from 276 million to 1.335 billion).

Dell has increased it's revenues from 35 to 49 billion in just 2 years. That is phenomenal growth for a company of its type and size. unlike apple, it does not try to sell goods that are priced at an incredible premium based on name and popularity. It also is not riding a wave of a new comsumer product so it has not seen a windfall in profits(and it probably never will). It sits at just over 3 billion in earnings.

Yes, the ggp was incredibly dishonest trying to say apple is dying and is frankly, an idiot. Every analyst in the world thinks they are looking at financial health for a long while to come.

Of course, I claim this analyst is an idiot. He gives these headline predictions assuming all macs that are selling this year beyond last year are windows converts. He is completely ignoring the highly probably activity of many mac users of holding off on mac purchases in expectance of the G5 and lower prices for it. This would imply that many users would not buy last year and buy this year to get access to a modern CPU.

Now, I'm not arguing there weren't a lot of windows to mac switches, but this analyst lacks a basic control over logic.

Not surprised

[Tug3]

Just last night I was in a MobileMonday -meeting at a local bar in Helsinki. It used to be a meeting for nerds interested in mobile stuff, but it has been overrun by marketdroids and you rarely see a nerd there any more.

Anyway I was talking to a business contact, who is a partner in a management consultant company. His comment last night was that Microsoft is the sales department for OS X. They trashed all their PCs and switched totally to OS X -environment as XP's ServicePack 2 came out. They just couldn't get their PCs to co-operate with that pack. What amazed me was that this came from a guy that's allways used PCs and is in no way interested in geek-stuff - he is a management consultant after all. And this happens in Finland, that's propably one of the most pro-PC countries in the World. Three years ago I used to know only a couple of people who used Macs. Now it seems that number has well over trippled, and that's mostly converts.

Personally I do use PCs, Macs & Unix boxes (HP & Sun), with major OSs. But as a for my laptop, the choise has been clear for years. Apple's laptops were far ahead in battery life for years. Nowadays there's not that much difference, but the usability, stability and connectivity is still there...

An example of Mac takeup

[mookie t mookle]

I worked in a school where they had a suite of iBooks for video editing using iMovie- they were not the most powerful beasts at 500MHz G3 and 128MB of RAM, but they were good enough for the kids to splice footage together and mess about with transitions. Later last year we got a bunch of iBook G4s in along with copies of Final Cut Express- I started having a fiddle with them, just to get a feel for OS X and gradually realised that I was enjoying using a computer for the first time in a while. I am one of those peopl who periodically tries to use Linux but gets frustrated by all the configuraion difficulties.
The only problem for me getting one was price, that changed earlier this year with the Mac Mini- I bought one and loved it to pieces. As a result of the Mini being around, my housemate and two of his friends are now owners of 12" iBooks, my uncle is getting a Mini and my cousin is going for a 15" Powerbook. Myself, I just bought one of the new 17" iMac G5s, the recent bump seemed to move it into a sweet spot where I thought it was worth buying.
Seven Mac sales where before there were only PC users, obviously this is just a point of data and not a trend, but I think it shows how thse things can snowball. I do stil use my PC by the way, it is more powerful than the Macs- but I only use it for games now, and to be honest I can't see me upgrading it or getting a new one in the future.

Re:iTunes, not iPod

[mr100percent]

Can you imagine if Microsoft had tried to make a program like iTunes?

They did, and called it Windows Media Player. It sucks.

Re:The Mac Experience - not all its cracked up to

[Smurf]

Then, I actually tried to create a tri-fold brochure with it. I could type a sentence, then wait 10 seconds for the first keystroke to appear, and another 30 seconds for the entire sentence to be inserted into the text. This occurs when editing Apple's own tri-fold brochure template.

This is very interesting. I was going to mod you down, but you are already at -1. Then I thought to myself: "I actually use and LOVE Keynote, but I don't really use Pages, so modding this comment without first hand experience would be unfair."

So I fired up Pages, opened the Three Panel Brochure template (I guess that's what you meant), and noticed that if I replaced the template text, the program would be dog slow. Not as slow as you say: after typing a very, very long sentence, the last character would appear around six seconds after I typed it, which is anyway too annoying.

So I was going to mod you up. But then I saw all the comments saying that they don't experience such a long lag... WTF? So I closed the document and started a new one using the Club Newsletter template, which looks fairly complex. To make things fair, I inserted five different pages all with several columns, pictures, side texts (or however they are called). By the way, everything looks very cool, and far more complex than the Three Panel Brochure. I started editing all over the place, with *absolutely* no delay.

So the problem is actually with the specific template! Apparently it's much more complex than it seems, or the author screwed up, or it uses a particular "feature" that kills Pages. In any case, you can make documents that look much more complex using other templates (although I only tested those two).

Someone please mod parent as "Underrated". I personally thought that describing my findings would contribute more to the discussion.

Oh, by the way: Pages - Just say yes only if you have already tested the template you want to use.

Keynote, that's a totally different story. Keynote rocks!

I'm confused?

[bradleyland]

You've got to be kidding me. I ripped them off by upgrading their computer to a point where they can actually use it? You certainly don't have enough information about me to make judgments about my character. Most of my residential clients are sufficiently wealthy individuals who are very happy with my service and fully understand my income model. Most are happy to have someone who will actually explain to them why 256 MB isn't suitable for running the applications they use, rather than trying to get in and out in under 10 minutes.

Furthermore, I donate my time and money to recondition my wealthy customer's old systems for families who cannot afford a system. The last three systems I gave away were faster than 1 GHz and all went out with 512 MB of RAM or more. I sleep just fine at night.