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Flushing the Net Down the Tubes

netcetra writes "From a post by on CircleID by Phillip J. Windley: 'Doc Searls has written a brilliant piece framing the battle for the Net at Linux Journal. ... if you take the time to read just one essay on the Net and the politics surround it this year, read this one.' Quote from Doc himself: 'This is a long essay. There is, however, no limit to how long I could have made it. The subjects covered here are no less enormous than the Net and its future. Even optimists agree that the Net's future as a free and open environment for business and culture is facing many threats. We can't begin to cover them all or cover all the ways we can fight them. I believe, however, that there is one sure way to fight all of these threats at once, and without doing it the bad guys will win. That's what this essay is about.' Also see additional background on the piece on Doc Searls blog."

329 comments

  1. Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by Senes · · Score: 4, Insightful

    In other media such as television and radio, it takes a great deal of resouces to be able to broadcast your information outward. Anyone can connect to the internet, and unless ISPs suddenly find the motivation and the money to start taking fine tuned control over what every user does, anyone can host their own information and data.

    1. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by buswolley · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      first post is usually a bad post...

      --

      A Good Troll is better than a Bad Human.

    2. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by Bonker · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I have to disagree. The problem here is not that the ability is going away, but that the freedom is going away. Those who take the freedom, those who excercise the ability in the face of legislation, are more and more often having to do it at risk to themselves or those around them.

      How many companies can I badmouth before they shut me up by suing me?

      How longer can I criticize the government before I get sent to Guantanamo?

      Widespread lawbreaking indicates a problem with the laws, and not with the crime. This is why copyright law is so ineffective. It's also the reason that drug law doesn't really work.

      In this case, however, more power is moving away from inviduals faster than it's coming to them. Of those who take that power back, by whatever means, more and more of them will be made to suffer.

      --
      The next Slashdot story will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and slashdot the links early!
    3. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by guardiangod · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.

      Are you vigilant?

    4. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by DoorFrame · · Score: 1, Interesting

      "Widespread lawbreaking indicates a problem with the laws, and not with the crime."

      Do you really think that argument holds water? Would you consider the 12,000 murders each year in the United States widespread? If that number isn't high enough, what about the 90,000 rapes? Still not high enough, what about 1.1 million car thefts? Suddenly the numbers are looking pretty widespread and yet I don't think anyone would argue there's a problem with laws against murder, rape or car theft. Want to get even higher? How about the 2.1 million burglaries and 2.2 million assaults?

      At what point does a crime start becoming widespread? If murder were at the same rate as copyright infringement, would you argue that both were bad laws, neither were bad laws, or only one?

      Oh, stats from here by the way.

    5. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by eln · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yes, it's cheaper to publish information on the Net than in almost any other media, but it's also cheaper and easier to block said content on the Net than almost any other media. It's not about ISPs finding motivation to block people, it's about governments and other organizations (through lawsuits and other means) providing ISPs the motivation to do so. It is then up to the ISPs to find the motivation to resist those efforts, and most ISPs don't care enough to bother.

      In the old days of mom and pop ISPs, when profit margins were (relatively) high, and the Internet was more of a wild frontier, the ISPs often fought tooth and nail to keep from giving away even the most innocuous of customer data to anyone. These days, however, the mom and pop ISP is virtually nonexistent, and the margins in the ISP business are not sufficient to allow any ISP to protect the rights of its clients.

      The Internet is still the most "free" of all available media, but that status is definitely under threat. As more powerful and wealthy interest groups bring more pressure on ISPs and other content publishers, the more difficult it will be for the average Joe to find a place where his voice can be freely expressed online.

    6. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by aussie_a · · Score: 3, Insightful

      How many companies can I badmouth before they shut me up by suing me?

      How longer can I criticize the government before I get sent to Guantanamo?


      A hell of a lot of people do both EVERY DAY on the internet. The majority of people aren't getting sued or sent to Guantanamo Bay. It doesn't appear that there will be a large amount of people going to either place.

      Coercing people by threat of litigation or wrongful imprisonment IS wrong. But that doesn't really have anything to do with the internet. It's a problem in American society, that has moved onto the internet. You can't solve it for the internet only though, without solving it for the rest of society.

    7. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by Slow+Smurf · · Score: 1

      I would tend to think he more means both the crime and public opinion is widespread.

      What percentage of the public do you think supports car thefts or murder? The only problem with things like this is you also have to admit only knowledgable people are viable to voice an opinion, many if you polled randomly would be unaware of the issue.

      Ah well, not like anyone cares what the public thinks now anyway.

    8. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by try_anything · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That cheap, easy, and free quality is purely accidental and is exactly what needs to be protected. The internet happens to be the way it is because of its history. It became indispensable before governments had time to take control. The Saudi government would have created an internet that sent an email to the police when a woman logs on, the US government would have created an internet that couldn't be used without paying a corporation, and every government would have created an internet that gave it complete surveillance power over users within its borders. For now, governments must accept the internet as it is, but they will work to correct these perceived shortcomings, and hence destroy the free nature of the internet.

    9. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by mrchaotica · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The United States contains about 296 million people. 12,000 murders divided by 296,000,000 people equates to 0.004% of the population. Similarly, rapes = 0.03%, car thefts = 0.3%, burglaries and assaults = 0.7% each. These are all less than 1% of the population, and in most cases, much less.

      On the other hand, anecdotally I'd say that at least a third of the population condones non-commercial copyright infringement (and I'm being conservative in my estimate, and taking into account the propaganda of the RIAA).

      The point is, when an act is accepted by a significant proportion of the population, chances are that act is ethical -- in fact, it can be argued that ethics only exist relative to the population. So yeah, if murder and copyright infringment were performed at the same rate, then either both would be acceptable, or neither would. Of course, if a third of the population condoned murder, we'd have a society more similar to the Roman Empire (not that there's anything wrong with that).

      Your use of absolute numbers are meaningless, and borderline FUD -- 12,000 out of 12,000 means something completely different than 12,000 out of 296,000,000.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    10. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by BrynM · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Don't forget that most major broadband ISPs block known server ports and restrict you from running servers in their EULA. At first it was so businesses didn't just start using broadband in lieu of "premium" accounts. Too bad, because broadband is so common now that it's what most businesses use anyway. The only real "cost" the ISP incurrs by making them use a "premium" account is a higher bandwidth cap and un-blockings some ports. It's an anachronistic practice, but greed keeps it going.

      Running a personal wiki or having a photo-share server for friends seems like a technical imposibility to most lay people because of this. The truth is, most of it can be done with easy to use software today. It should be trivial for the end user. Run an installer and start going. I seem to remember dreams of this being what the internet was for - back in the day... Remember when having a webcam wasn't mainly just for IM?

      Yes I know that script kiddies have made this idea a playground for malware and things need to be blocked upstream for authentication-less ports sometimes. I do firmly believe that if everyone knew it was initially prety much their right to add their info to the internet, MS would have never been so lax and security would have had the focus by all of us that it should have gotten. The software that enables a home desktop to be a server would be way more mature due to popularity. In some ways, IM epitomizes this need to share with eachother.

      --
      US Democracy:The best person for the job (among These pre-selected choices...)
    11. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by xkenny13 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If murder were at the same rate as copyright infringement, would you argue that both were bad laws, neither were bad laws, or only one?

      Well, before we do that, let's look a little deeper. Copyright used to last only 14 years. Now it is 70ish years beyond the death of the creator. It has been extended and expanded well beyond it's useful function, and is a horrid aberration of its original intention.

      Murder today only applies to the willful killing of a human being. Should this law be extended the way copyright law has been extended ... then what becomes a murder now? What if all manslaughters were murders? How about hitting a dog on the road? Stepping on bugs?

      If ALL those things were now considered to be murders, then you would definately have a murder rate comparable to the rate at which copyright infringement occurs.

      If all that were true, then yes ... I would definately say there was something wrong with the "murder" law.

      To properly answer your question, I would successfully argue that both laws were bad.

      While I will agree that this argument initially sounds ludicrous ... remind yourself again how badly manipulated the copyright law is today. Note also for the record that Congress is not done with their rewriting of copyright law.

    12. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by imsmith · · Score: 1

      Don't confuse criminal law and civil law. Violence is substantially different than disobedience.

      Just because 0.00004% of the population might get murdured in a given year doesn't mean that the laws aren't needed to maintain the government's monopoly on violence, but the original poster was pointing out that when the behavior of the people is out of whack with the action of the government, the government is at fault first, then the people, not the other way around.

    13. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by LnxAddct · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Hmm... maybe if the GP restated it as widespread law breaking of victimless crimes implies that said law is too oppressive, essentially turning law abiding citizens into victims. It severely narrows down the number and types of crimes covered. And no, copyright theft does not have a victim, noone loses anything.
      Regards,
      Steve

    14. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by Bob9113 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      How about the 2.1 million burglaries and 2.2 million assaults?

      What percentage of the 18 - 40 year old public (roughly the heart of the burglary market, I would guess) engages in burglary?

      What percentage of the 18 - 40 year old public engages in copyright infringement?

      At least an order of magnitude difference there, right?

      If murder were at the same rate as copyright infringement, would you argue that both were bad laws, neither were bad laws, or only one?

      Both. I'll avoid the straw man you've set up by mixing the moral issue of murder with the legal matter of homicide. Ask yourself this - in societies where the percentage of the population that engages in homicide reaches double digits, isn't it obvious that the laws are broken? South Africa, Tombstone, Yugoslavia, Boston in the 1770's, Nicaragua, South Central LA, The Gangs of New York, Paris before The Revolution - in every case homicide became commonplace because the laws were enforced inconsistently and/or prejudicially. What is more wrong in those cases; fighting for your way of life or letting the injustice stand? We celebrate the people who committed homicide in the name of The American Revolution. So yes, when homicide becomes as commonplace as copyright infringement is today, it loses it's objective, absolute "wrong"-ness.

    15. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 1

      Perhaps you should have used speeders and speed limit laws, instead.

      Better numbers and all that.

      --
      There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
    16. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by some+guy+I+know · · Score: 5, Insightful
      when an act is accepted by a significant proportion of the population, chances are that act is ethical
      You mean, like slavery in the US 200 years ago?
      Or, more recently, the anti-communist witch-hunts of the 1950s?
      Or, currently, the systematic violations of your rights that occur at airports every time that you want to make a trip on a commercial airline?
      Or the killing of non-human animals for sport?
      Or the killing of pre-natal children?
      Or the forced indocrination of religion on post-natal children (in church , Sunday-school, etc.)?
      Or the idea that it's OK for a government to take a huge chunk of your income and spend it on things to which you are ethically opposed (like war, or Welfare (or both, depending on your point of view))?
      Or the idea that Britney Spears has talent and deserves her fame?
      Or the idea that it's O.K. for stupid football games to repeatedly preempt a great T.V. program like Firefly, eventually leading to the latter program's demise?

      Wait, I appear to be drifting off-topic.
      The point that I'm trying to make is that a popular belief is not always ethical, especially by my standards, which are the only ones that I care about anyway.
      That's why the U.S. government was created as a republic, not a democracy, and why we have a Supreme Court to curb the excesses of a supposedly popularly-elected Congress.
      --
      Those who sacrifice security to condemn liberty deserve to repeat history or something. - Benjamin Santayana
    17. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "12,000 murders divided by 296,000,000 people equates to 0.004% of the population. Similarly, rapes = 0.03%, car thefts = 0.3%, burglaries and assaults = 0.7% each. These are all less than 1% of the population, and in most cases, much less."

      Such numbers are a matter of presentation. For instance, at 0.7% per year each and a life expectancy of 70 years, the average number of (burglaries + assaults) gets close to 1 (probably not uniformly distributed). With those numbers, murder gets to about three per mille, so if you know about 300 people, chances are one of them will get murdered.

      Alternatively, you could talk things down to the per-second 'chance' of getting the victim of a crime.

    18. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by BronsCon · · Score: 1, Informative
      Said by DoorFrame:
      Do you really think that argument holds water? Would you consider the 12,000 murders each year in the United States widespread? If that number isn't high enough, what about the 90,000 rapes? Still not high enough, what about 1.1 million car thefts? Suddenly the numbers are looking pretty widespread and yet I don't think anyone would argue there's a problem with laws against murder, rape or car theft. Want to get even higher? How about the 2.1 million burglaries and 2.2 million assaults?

      I believe OP was refering to widespread as meaning it's being done the the vast majority of the population, average people, not hardened criminals.
      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    19. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by symbolic · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      The point is, when an act is accepted by a significant proportion of the population, chances are that act is ethical

      Was slavery ethical? Was the holocaust ethical? A resounding "no" on both counts.

      The only reason that it happens so frequently is because it can. Before the advent of the digital medium, copyright infringement didn't yield nearly the same quality and was quite a bit of trouble to boot. By contrast, all it takes today is a search term or two, a few mouse clicks, and whatever time it takes for the download to complete.

      No matter how you slice it, dice it, or spin it, it all boils down to the fact that copyright infringement involves the acquisition of something of value, without the permission of, or compensation to, its owners. People who want change in the business models used by the content providers NEED TO STOP FUNDING THE CURRENT MODEL.

    20. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by daliman · · Score: 1

      And those who infringe copyright are not funding that model. So good on them :)

    21. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by in7ane · · Score: 1

      And by your logic if you live for longer than 70 years you are likely to be murdered twice!

      1 - (1 - 0.007)^70 = 38.8% is the figure you are looking for assults which can reoccur.

      and less than 0.279% for murders (which can't)

      And that's over your 70 year lifetime

    22. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by AGMW · · Score: 4, Insightful
      The point that I'm trying to make is that a popular belief is not always ethical, especially by my standards, which are the only ones that I care about anyway.

      You are missing his point. The world's ethics are not set by you, or me, or any individual. They are the current mood of the population. Sure, now the whole concept of slavery seems barbaric, but back in the day, slavery was deemed acceptable/ethical. That's the whole point!

      We can look back and wag our fingers about how awful our ancestors were, and not just slavery, but witch burning, any number of religion-based attrocities (nobody expects ...), animal welfare, treatment of indigenous people, the list is probably endless, but at the time, most of the actions were deemed acceptable. As I understand it, if we burnt someone at the stake, we thought we were saving their soul!

      I'd say that by definition, the popular vote defines the popular ethical values. Just be thankfull that we have moved on from the time when having different ethical values from the norm might mean you were burnt at the stake for heresy!

      --
      Eclectic beats from Leeds, UK
      handmadehands.co.uk
    23. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by tehdaemon · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Some editing is needed to a your last paragraph. You used a term that is not correct.



      "No matter how you slice it, dice it, or spin it, it all boils down to the fact that copyright infringement involves the acquisition of something of value, without the permission of, or compensation to, its original creator(s). People who want change in the business models used by the content providers NEED TO STOP FUNDING THE CURRENT MODEL."



      This makes a great deal of difference. The creators never owned the copy that the infringer recieved, nor did they own the copy that was used in infringing the copyright at the time of the infringment. And often they never owned that copy at all.

      This situation has nothing to do with ownership. (see TFA) Copyright is about privledges granted by restricting others actions. Not rights, and not ownership.

      --
      Laws are horrible moral guides, moral guides make even worse laws.
    24. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by baadger · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Was slavery ethical? Was the holocaust ethical?

      Only a minority of the slave keeping population seemed to object at the time. Ethics and morality change judging the past by todays standards it ludicrous. IMO, grandparent or whatever is spot on.

      Maybe one day the pressures created by the ease of commiting piracy will lead to a more mature society with much more freely available enjoyment.

    25. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by AGMW · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Was slavery ethical? Was the holocaust ethical? A resounding "no" on both counts.

      I think you are mixing your example a bit here ...

      Is slavery ethical ... we currently don't think so. Was slavery deemed ethical back in the day, well I'm sad to say that I think it was! Gradually the idea of slavery became less and less acceptable until it was eventually outlawed, but it was obviously an accepted part of society for many years, not least in africa where the various tribes would take slaves from each other as a matter of course.

      Now we get on to the holocaust. Obviously we can still look back and see this as a bad thing, but there the similarity ends, because the vast majority of opinion back then would also have been horrified by the concept. That a few people high up in the Nazi regime were able to fool and trick their population into helping perpetrate the attrocity is perhaps more interesting, but I'd say the majority of the population simply didn't know it was happening!

      --
      Eclectic beats from Leeds, UK
      handmadehands.co.uk
    26. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful
      Or alternatively the price of freedom is massive blood shedding every 200 years or so. "They" take away our rights and powers bit by bit over time and one day "we" take them all back with one big crash.

      Nobody likes it but that's the way things have been in history.

    27. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by Burz · · Score: 1

      Ethics are a philosophical system based on human rights and skeptical empiricism. An assertion that slavery is ethical might be accepted into the halls of wisdom at first blush, but it wouldn't stand up to scrutiny for very long.

      Moriality tends to be more arbitrary in its constituent values, and often must be bostered by religion or other form of mass credulity.

    28. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by surprise_audit · · Score: 1
      unless ISPs suddenly find the motivation and the money to start taking fine tuned control over what every user does

      It's not difficult or expensive to stop people hosting their own stuff at home. Instead of an ISP blocking inbound port 25, 80, 443, etc, they could block *everything* inbound barring a few exceptions. The vast majority of people do what on the Internet?? Read email, surf the web and chat via IM. None of those need to allow an inbound SYN packet on *any* port. Well, maybe the IM clients, for direct file transfer. The majority of *legal* traffic is initiated by the user's machine sending a SYN packet to the remote host, getting a SYN/ACK back, and the connection's open. Block inbound SYN packets and nobody talks to you.

      OK, so that's overly simplistic, but it's easy and cheap to do. It would also go a long way towards cutting the legs out from under the spammers and virus writers.

    29. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by Coeurderoy · · Score: 1

      Actually the example works the same way on the Shoa, first of all it didn't occurs all at once, but progressivelly, concentration camps where first built for "enemies of the people and of the state", and then of course many people became known as "bad guys". Every person sent to the camps had a special 3rd class train ticket: ONE WAY, so anybody connected to the railroad had a pretty good idea of what was happening. Many "jokes" where passed arround. But doing something was hard, and dangerous, so most people where happy to "focus on their own familly". but the only one who didn't know where the ones that made extra efforts to NO KNOW. Of course after the war many people where shocked to see "how bad it really is", but they knew. And it took them about one generation to be able to analyse this. (BTW i'm german)

    30. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by Kjella · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yes, it's cheaper to publish information on the Net than in almost any other media, but it's also cheaper and easier to block said content on the Net than almost any other media.

      Huh? Never has there been such a place with so little editorial responsibility. Unless you want to run around putting up posters, the simplest way to spread information that is too controversial, quaint or even illegal to end up at any publisher is to put it on a website, send it out by email, irc/dcc, post to newsgroups, whatever. Peer-to-peer is completely causing havoc on anyone trying to control information. For example, try finding the Scientologist documents they were sending takedown notices to ISPs and Google, among other places. You'll find that you can, and quite easily. You forget that we don't see people encrypt because we don't see ISPs censor. The first country to do will see a massive amout of SSL-proxy connections abroad.

      Kjella

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    31. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by radarjd · · Score: 5, Interesting
      The world's ethics are not set by you, or me, or any individual. They are the current mood of the population. Sure, now the whole concept of slavery seems barbaric, but back in the day, slavery was deemed acceptable/ethical. That's the whole point!

      Bravo to you for taking cultural relativism to its absurd extreme. The idea has moved from a challenge to be open minded, to the conclusion of all of philosophy. Gone are thousands of years of thought on what mankind could acheive, and we, in our profound wisdom, have replaced it with the "philosophy" that what is moral is what the majority of people say is moral.

      Slavery isn't acceptable, no matter what time or what place. I don't care if 90% of people agree to it, those 90% are wrong. Whether you take a utilitarian, or absolutist, or just about any doctrine I can think of besides cultural relativism, it's wrong.

      "News for nerds" -- aren't nerds supposed to be in favor of logic and reason? No sound logic or tenable reason can arrive at many of the junk ideas that float around here. You tell me how humanity is better by saying "what's moral is what we think is moral" -- give me some sort of reason based argument that isn't premised on "it makes us feel better."

      It's this line of thinking that allows extremism, hatred, and tyranny. The line has to be drawn somewhere, and even those originating the ideas of relativism would accept that.

    32. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Killing during war is not the same as criminal homicide.

    33. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by westlake · · Score: 2, Informative
      Copyright used to last only 14 years.

      It has been a long time, a very long time, since copyrights expired after only fourteen years.

      In 1831, U.S. copyrights wwre extended to twenty-eight years. in 1909, renewals to twenty-eight years. In 1976, the U.S. adopted the Berne formula of life plus fifty years. Copyright Timeline

    34. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by Scrameustache · · Score: 1

      Only a minority of the slave keeping population seemed to object at the time.

      And what did the slaves think?

      --

      You can't take the sky from me...

    35. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by daviddennis · · Score: 1

      Since you can host a blog for free in about a million places, I really don't see this as much of an infringement on anyone's right to speak. It's irksome for geeks, who want to play with their own software on their own computers, but the guy or girl on the street just wants to have her blog or web page, and she can, no fuss, no muss, no problem.

      She's a lot better off doing that, too, because the software requires maintenance that most people don't want to learn about or bother with.

      We should understand that what we want is, alas, not what the world as a whole wants or can use.

      D

    36. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by BorgCopyeditor · · Score: 1

      It's easy to block individual sites, but not so easy to block particular content.

      --
      Shop as usual. And avoid panic buying.
    37. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by flyinwhitey · · Score: 1

      "News for nerds -- aren't nerds supposed to be in favor of logic and reason?"

      So, just because I'm unclear on it, quote the part of your post where you expound on your point using logic and reason.

      Because all I see are your opinions, which is funny because that's what you got pissy with the GP for.

      Seriously, not trolling, I don't see where the logic is, but maybe I'm missing it.

      --
      How pathetic are you that you follow me from topic to topic and waste all your mod points at once modding me down?
    38. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by c_forq · · Score: 1

      I think you missed his point. I don't think he was saying slavery was acceptable, but instead saying it was deemed ethical. We are talking about ethics, not absolute right and wrong.

      I don't care if 90% of people agree to it, those 90% are wrong.
      I have a problem with this, because it was what crazy people say (I don't care if 90% of the population says I'm insane, I am sane). You yourself said you have to draw a line, that line should be in line with the 90%. Or are you the one supporting tryanny, saying that 10% should enforce their will on everyone?

      --
      Computers allow humans to make mistakes at the fastest speeds known, with the possible exception of tequila and handguns
    39. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by flyinwhitey · · Score: 1

      I think a large group of people would tell you the price of freedom is whatever it takes to keep the mean people from beating them up. (Yes you Lefty!)

      Those people are fools of course, but that's what they think.

      --
      How pathetic are you that you follow me from topic to topic and waste all your mod points at once modding me down?
    40. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by c_forq · · Score: 1

      I think you need to read the parent again. So what war was happening in pre-revolutionary France that made it not criminal homocide? What war was happening in Tombstone? In early New York? In pre-Revoltutionary Boston? And don't say it is the war on drugs happening in South Central Los Angelos.

      --
      Computers allow humans to make mistakes at the fastest speeds known, with the possible exception of tequila and handguns
    41. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by Bob9113 · · Score: 1

      Killing during war is not the same as criminal homicide.

      I agree in most cases (though criminal homicide can and does occur during war - the Holocaust comes to mind). That is why I said, "homicide" (a neutral term meaning one person killing another) instead of "criminal homicide" or "murder."

    42. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by Skim123 · · Score: 1
      A lot of people knew about the atrocities of the Holocaust as it was happening. Moving, cataloging, and killing six million people takes a pretty solid infrastructure and large set of human resource. It's not like the German high command went out in the night, rounded people up, killed them on their own, and hid their bodies.

      Also, late in the war the US had intelligence on the then operating concentration camps in Germany and had the range to bomb them, but opted instead for targets of militaristic value. I can see the point of sticking w/military targets, but it's shame that a few sorties weren't scheduled for the camps, which might have saved hundreds of thousands of innocent lives, if not more.

      --

      I could not justify my existence if I were a turkey farmer. Would I terminate myself? Undoubtably, yes.

    43. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by captainkc · · Score: 1

      The argument that one third of the population "condones" non-commercial copyright infringement doesn't address the question about the "rightness" of copyright law but rather begs the question as to what it means to be law-abiding. To use an automotive traffic analogy; If you strictly observe speed limits when there are no cops around, then you are "law-abiding". If you do not, then you are not "law-abiding" you simply fear the cops. In the case of the copyright law, the fact that one third of the population ignores them is simply an acknowledgement that there are no copyright cops around when it comes to their activities. It may or may not be that copyright laws are properly constructed in their current form but, in our society, compliance is no measure of rightness.

    44. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by khallow · · Score: 2, Insightful
      You are missing his point. The world's ethics are not set by you, or me, or any individual. They are the current mood of the population. Sure, now the whole concept of slavery seems barbaric, but back in the day, slavery was deemed acceptable/ethical. That's the whole point!

      The absence of ethics isn't itself a form of ethics. And ethics isn't a "mood".

    45. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by khallow · · Score: 1
      in fact, it can be argued that ethics only exist relative to the population

      A lot of things can be argued especially on slashdot, but that doesn't make them worth the effort. A lot of people (I'd consider it a majority) on occasion do things which they consider wrong. That by definition makes those acts unethical.

    46. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by Mac+Degger · · Score: 1

      Yeah, nice strawman. Unjust laws (all literally victimless crimes, like smoking pot) are broken by many more than a paltry million who break just laws (ones which hurt people) in the US.

      --
      -- Waht? Tehr's a preveiw buottn?
    47. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by radarjd · · Score: 1

      Fair enough, I think it's more of an implied point than a stated one.

      That is, humanity is advanced, or at least has an idea of where to go and what to do, via utilitarian ethics. There is logic and reason behind saying "this produces the most good for the most people, and is therefore itself good" in contrast with saying "most people like this because it's easy/fun/profitable, and is therefore itself good." The former statement is at least based on some logical principle, and provides some guidance as to what someone should do. The latter does not tell you what to do, except in the case it's been done by many.

    48. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by radarjd · · Score: 1
      I think you missed his point. I don't think he was saying slavery was acceptable, but instead saying it was deemed ethical. We are talking about ethics, not absolute right and wrong.

      ethics (from dictionary.com) # A set of principles of right conduct. # A theory or a system of moral values

      ethic (from Marriam- Webster) 1 plural but singular or plural in construction : the discipline dealing with what is good and bad and with moral duty and obligation 2 a : a set of moral principles or values b : a theory or system of moral values c plural but singular or plural in construction : the principles of conduct governing an individual or a group d : a guiding philosophy

      Ethics at least concerns itself with defining right or wrong, so I'm not sure what you're saying.

      I have a problem with this, because it was what crazy people say (I don't care if 90% of the population says I'm insane, I am sane). You yourself said you have to draw a line, that line should be in line with the 90%. Or are you the one supporting tryanny, saying that 10% should enforce their will on everyone?

      Kant says there are absolutes in ethics -- that there are certain things which are not done. So do Jesus, Buddha, and many others who might be considered wise.

      I am not at all saying the 10% should enforce their will -- that would itself be a wrong. However, it does not make them wrong or insane to believe in the right thing.

      Pathological insanity is a measurable disease in that it prevents someone from functioning due to an imbalance in brain chemistry. Disagreeing with 90% of the world does not make you pathologically insane, but having bad brain chemistry does

      Legal insanity is a different issue (IAAL), and is a societally constructed idea. It may or may not relate to chemistry.

    49. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by AGMW · · Score: 1
      You tell me how humanity is better by saying "what's moral is what we think is moral" -- give me some sort of reason based argument that isn't premised on "it makes us feel better."

      First off, you seem to be implying that I think slavery is a good thing, so, to clarify, I think slavery is bad. Very Bad. OK ... Moving on ...

      I'm not saying humanity is better because the "moral compass" gets positioned roughly by taking the averages of all the people's personal morals, I'm just saying that I think it is the case.

      This "moral compass" is swinging all the time, and sometimes there are big swings, as with the stopping of slavery. Sometimes there are smaller swings, as with the legalising (or at least allowing) of drug use in Amsterdam, for example.

      You have your moral compass, and I'm sure you are as against slavery as I am, but you can't sit there lambasting me for not using logic and reason, and then tell me that back at the start of slavery, people (as in "the people", or indeed "society") didn't think it was a good idea! This doesn't mean they were right, indeed, we can look back and say how bad it was, but at the time it was deemed acceptable. As people decided it wasn't such a nice thing to do to another human being, opionion changed, and eventually, what we currently think of as "right" prevailed.

      It's like looking back at the flat-earthers and saying they new it was round. Er ... No ... they really thought it was flat!

      The flat-earthers seems comical to us now, and slavery seems barbaric, but the underlying issue is the same. They simply didn't know any better!

      Have a look around and think what the future might think about some of our actions today ...
      - I'm sure they'll laugh at our medicine
      - Might be a back-lash at keeping pets (Guide Dogs vs animal slavery?)
      - If computers become sentient, factories using robots might seem like slavery again?

      I have to restate my belief that slavery is wrong, and was wrong, and always will be wrong, but that is my belief, and it wasn't necessarily the commonly held belief in the past, and it might not be the commonly held belief in the future!

      --
      Eclectic beats from Leeds, UK
      handmadehands.co.uk
    50. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by AGMW · · Score: 1
      Sure, I've seen a few (!) documentaries on the subject, including how trainloads destined for the concentration camps and ultimately death were routed through, I think even by the Swiss, from Italy, etc, so there would have been a lot of people with an idea that "something nasty" was happening, but there was always the fear that if you stood up you might be shipped out too, and I dare say many were!

      I was trying not to point the finger at Germany in particular, and I have heard reports about the UK Government knowing about the gassings and all, but still I'd say the majority of people involved in the war - ie the public in the US/UK/Canada/Australia/New Zealand/etc/etc didn't actually know about the attocities taking place. My guess is, that if they did know they would have wanted action taken.

      Why the various governments decided to sit on it until the end of the war would be interesting.

      --
      Eclectic beats from Leeds, UK
      handmadehands.co.uk
    51. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by OpieTaylor · · Score: 1

      ...late in the war the US had intelligence on the then operating concentration camps in Germany and had the range to bomb them, but opted instead for targets of militaristic value. I can see the point of sticking w/military targets, but it's shame that a few sorties weren't scheduled for the camps, which might have saved hundreds of thousands of innocent lives

      I'm not the military expert you obviously are, but I don't recall ever reading about precision smart bombs in the 1940s that could have achieved what you describe.

      AFAIK the tech was limited to scattering lots and lots of high explosives over a wide area--i.e., kill them all, and let the gods sort them out.

      --
      Thanks a lot, big brain. (K. Vonnegut, "Galapagos")
    52. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by Bitmanhome · · Score: 1

      No, "owners" is the correct word, but we're not talking about ownership of the piece of plasic that carries the music, we're talking about ownership of the music itself. The owner is the one that holds the copy rights. And many times, that's not the original creator.

      --
      Not that this wasn't entirely predictable.
    53. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by Skim123 · · Score: 1
      I'm not the military expert you obviously are, but I don't recall ever reading about precision smart bombs in the 1940s that could have achieved what you describe. AFAIK the tech was limited to scattering lots and lots of high explosives over a wide area--i.e., kill them all, and let the gods sort them out.

      Right, but concentration camps weren't located in cities. Carpet bombing sorties could easily decimate the entire camp. Yes, you'd kill the thousands of innocent prisoners there, but you'd destroy the infrastructure for mass murder, thereby saving tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of lives moving forward. The point would be to decimate the killing facilities - the gas showers, the kilns used to creamate the bodies.

      It might make some people squeamish, killing 1,000 innocent civilians, but it's hard to justify not doing it if you know that killing 1,000 innocents will save 10,000 innocents.

      --

      I could not justify my existence if I were a turkey farmer. Would I terminate myself? Undoubtably, yes.

    54. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by velsin.lionhart · · Score: 1

      You can criticize the government as much as you want under the 1st amendment and not get sent to Guantanamo. Those that are being held there were captured in a war, on the field of combat, and committed or were planning to commit physical acts of violence. Please don't try to sell your hysterical version of the "sky is falling," the Government will start sending to Gitmo everyone who disagrees with them.

    55. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by The_Quinn · · Score: 1
      ...it can be argued that ethics only exist relative to the population...

      I'd like to see how ethical you think it is when 51% of the population thinks it is ok to torture you.

    56. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, the public always owns the music, it's just that the copyright holder is given a monopoly on distribution.

      Note that under the law the person that has this right is not called the owner, he is called the holder.

      It is only theft if your stealing something deprives others of the right to sell it.

    57. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by trurl7 · · Score: 1

      I completely agree with you as to the unacceptability of slavery. But your appeal to logical and reason fails to make the point, I feel. I believe you are appealing to a sort of "absolute morality" - e.g. it's immoral to enslave people, or to kill them, or what have you. But moral absolutes don't really exist - there are just prevaling tendencies of the times. If there was anything like an absolutely moral action, we could try to isolate it by examining moral systems from all the cultures of earth and taking the intersection - identify those behaviours that are found moral in every ethical system. Unfortunately, the intersection is empty, null set. And you don't get to say 'let's chose the nice moralities' because that would be imposing your own view on what's "moral".

      I am not familiar enough with Cultural Relativism to know whether it says "All cultures are equally ethical" or "all cultures have the right to their own ethic". The distinction I am trying to draw is this: for instance, Aztecs had human sacrifice. We would find it barbaric and atrocious. Does a CR say "It was moral for Aztecs to do it because that's how they thought", or does he say "Human sacrifice is moral because the Aztecs did it"? I can not agree with the second case, but I think I am forced to accept that the first case is accurate.

      People will ultimately do what they can get away with. I doubt that the Aztec high priests thought "it's barbaric to have human sacrifice...I *like* it!". They probably thought it was ethical to slay people in the service of their god. And for them it worked. That doesn't mean I have to personally accept human sacrifice, or believe it ethical in a different context. Furthermore, my acceptance that it was moral for Aztecs to sacrifice humans doesn't mean I would be against destroying that culture for being brutal and disgusting. Similarly to Nazism - perhaps some Nazis genuinely thought that the herrenvolk (master race) doctrine was ethical. Ok. I can accept that as moral for them. But simultaneously, I believe it was moral for the rest of civilization to go to Germany and destroy that sort of thinking, and hang the people responsible. Because that's how *our* moral thinking works.

      Hence - people do what they can get away with, and that becomes the norm, and becomes ``moral''. For example, I believe brainwashing children with religous nonsense is abominable. But many people in the US do it, and so such brainwashing (religious instruction, Sunday school) is considered ``moral'' here. In consideration of this, I support the GP's claim that if ``this many people are for something, then it's probably moral'' stance.

    58. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by Coeurderoy · · Score: 1

      Well in some case raw antisemitism was a factor, like when the key Canadian official in charge of imigration, to the question: how many jew do you think could be the accepted in Canada, answered: None.

      But the main reason is that the public would rather ignore unconfortable truthes, the "democracies" did not invade ANY dictatorship unless they could obtain some direct or indirect economical adventage (usually in the form of an excuse to waste their own taxpayers money).

      Partly it seems callow, in part it is resonable, democracy imposed from outside is the worst tiranny.
      It has to come from the people, and people have to really want it, and understand what it really is.

      Otherwhise the US would have democracy instead of a lobbytocracy, where the government is basically doing what the new feodals (head of corporations) want them to.

    59. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by NormalVisual · · Score: 1

      Right, but concentration camps weren't located in cities.

      As I recall, the camp at Dachau was located on the edge of town and thus probably would have experienced some substantial civilian casualties from high-altitude bombings. Interestingly, when that camp was discovered the Allied invaders rounded the Dachau residents up and marched them through the camp, so as to force them to see firsthand exactly what had been going on right under their noses. As others have said, the town's residents wouldn't have had access to the camp itself and thus wouldn't have had direct experience with what went on there, but there would have been clear and undeniable signs that something foul was going on, not the least of which would have been the stench of thousands of rotting corpses in train cars toward the end of the war, owing to the lack of fuel for the crematoriums.

      --
      Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
    60. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by Skim123 · · Score: 1

      A lot of bad shit went down throughout the war and people just stood by. I'm not blaming them, it's hard to stand up when doing so will likely mean the end of your and your family's life. But the point remains, the Allies knew of the existence of concentration camps and the systemmatic murder that was going on, but decided not to bomb them. I'm not saying that this is anti-Semitism, as deciding to save ornaments strictly for military targets makes militaristic sense, but bombing those camps out of commission would have made moral sense, collateral damage be damned.

      --

      I could not justify my existence if I were a turkey farmer. Would I terminate myself? Undoubtably, yes.

    61. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's this line of thinking that allows extremism, hatred, and tyranny. The line has to be drawn somewhere, and even those originating the ideas of relativism would accept that.

      You are correct but is it not also the same "cultural relativism" that abolished slavery or even makes a luser think that if they run Linux they are safer, simply from the fact that he runs Linux, although he has no security (direct PPPoE connection/no firewall/17 diffrent *outdated* servers running/etc) and is still surfing around phishing and crackz/warez sites?

      But it is not that line of thinking that allows extremism, hatred, and tyranny, it's laziness. It could be laziness in the media, the people that allow it to happen, or even in lateral thinkers, which was arguably happening from 1996 (maybe earlier)-2004 (some say today).

      The more popular something is, the more people are going to think the practice is perfectly a natural thing to do, and proliferate it. This is regardless if the "thing" is slavery or continuing Holocaust education.

      See the thing is as soon as a population/media/whatever stops being lazy, the "popular ethics" I'm speaking of jump to a completely different tone. Look at what Rosa Parks did, she brought the ideal that equal rights right to the doorstep of almost every american the next morning, they thought about it, and came to the conclusion that it was not an ethical thing to allow, which was soon reflected afterward in the US Congress, the back breaking of KKK done by the Southern Poverty Law Center, and Rev. Martin Luther King Jr.'s speeches and marches.
      Two weeks ago I was at a protest against the KKK and there were literally 15 of the KKK and about 200-300 people against the KKK.
      Seems like a losing argument if your arguing for 1000 year old ethics philosophy, might be me though.

    62. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by lgw · · Score: 1

      The absence of ethics isn't itself a form of ethics. And ethics isn't a "mood".

      Well, you might have some private definition of "ethics" which makes what you say true by definition, but as "ethics" is commonly used by philosophers, this isn't necessarily so.

      There are more versions of "ehtical nihilism" than I can keep straight, so the absense of ehtics could certainly be consedered a form of ethics.

      There's has never been a mechanism demonstrated for proving any given code of ethics correct, but "mood" is really as good as anything. There's no evidence anywhere that "right" and "wrong" have any meaning outside of some specirfic culture. Your personal preferences may say otherwise, but so what? Perhaps you want to argue that ethics should be based on your personal preferences?

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    63. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by lgw · · Score: 1

      Was slavery ethical? Was the holocaust ethical? A resounding "no" on both counts.

      By moder standards, no. By the standard of the time and place, yes. In both cases (asuming you're talking about American slavery), the issues were settled by a war, so today's accepted vesrion of "ethical" is "that which those who wan the war believed".

      Kind of an odd system, no? Determining what is ethical by who won the war? And yet, almost every ethical stance in almost* every culture thoughout history was chosen in this way. Why do you think your ethical code is different?

      Don't you agree that some future culture will be certain that have of the things that you believ are ethical are, in fact, barbaric? Which half - well, that depends on who wins the wars.

      [*] Occasionally, a strong cultural belief spreads without war, but historically it's pretty rare. "Only mostly spread by war" maybe.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    64. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by symbolic · · Score: 1

      No, the public always owns the music, it's just that the copyright holder is given a monopoly on distribution.

      I stand corrected. Just the same, as far as illegal copying is concerned, this difference in terminology doesn't affect the end result.

      It is only theft if your stealing something deprives others of the right to sell it.

      Theft comes in many flavors. Theft of service, for example, doesn't deprive anyone of anything - it merely provides the thief with something that wasn't paid for. Either way, it's still theft.

    65. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by Arandir · · Score: 1

      Someone needs to mod you up. As imperfect as the US is, you would think its critics wouldn't have to invent falsehoods to make their point. There's no problem so slight that the antibushitarian can't hyperbolate it into an absurdity, and then burst a blood vessel screaming about the injustice of it.

      --
      A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
    66. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by khallow · · Score: 1
      There are more versions of "ehtical nihilism" than I can keep straight, so the absense of ehtics could certainly be consedered a form of ethics.

      Except absence of ethics doesn't imply ethical nihilism.

      There's has never been a mechanism demonstrated for proving any given code of ethics correct, but "mood" is really as good as anything.

      Is the code consistent? Can you end up in a state allowed by the code, for which all subsequent actions are equally penalized by the code? Does the code remain invariant when the relevant parties are shuffled? Does the code require extraordinary effort on the part of a party (particularly if this effort isn't equally required of all parties) though no fault of their own in order to comply?

      There's no evidence anywhere that "right" and "wrong" have any meaning outside of some specirfic culture.

      Suppose I build a code of ethics, but I don't follow them. I am violating ethics at a fundamental level. IMHO, that is the circumstances of a majority of civilization.

    67. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by Okita · · Score: 1

      Moral relativism is necessary when trying to examine history within its own cultural context, but I'll agree with you that it's no way to justify an action.

      Whether you take a utilitarian...

      I'd disagree with you here, if the slavery of one could produce the greatest happiness for the greatest number, Utilitarianism would advocate slavery... That's where I think Utilitarianism fails as opposed to a Kant-ian rights-based system.

    68. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by BrynM · · Score: 1
      Since you can host a blog for free in about a million places, I really don't see this as much of an infringement on anyone's right to speak. .... She's a lot better off doing that, too, because the software requires maintenance that most people don't want to learn about or bother with.
      Ah, but what's the EULA for the blog site? How about sharing photos? Who gets copyrights to those? To open a Myspace account today, she is unwittingly dealing with News Corp. (Fox News) for example.

      Consolidation has also made for a central point of failure. If blogging meant a node for each blog, shutting down opposing views with cease and desist letters would not be so simple for large corporations to do today. How hard it is to shut down P2P for major media is a great example of how this diversity could have made dissent harder to silence.

      I'm not thinking of it to help everyone be a geek, I'm thinking of it as a way in which we as people originally had more control and a more diverse landscape.

      --
      US Democracy:The best person for the job (among These pre-selected choices...)
    69. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by baadger · · Score: 1

      Their morals/rights were irrelevent unless they could and would preach them.

    70. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The most commonly accepted (simplistic) definition of 'ethical' is 'that which is good for the greatest number of people and does not cause significant pain to anyone'.

      The second clause means that yes, slavery and witch burning would be considered 'unethical'. However, I don't believe that any of the issues found in the realm of Internet politics could have any relation to the second clause - so let's leave that out.

      Now, the first clause 'good for the greatest number of people' is what is usually decided by civil disobediance types. Let's not go off topic by bringing up human abuse topics, when we're talking about no such thing.

    71. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      Just because I wouldn't like it doesn't mean I couldn't admit that they consider it ethical. In my previous post, I don't think I ever claimed that defining what's ethical for a population as a whole precluded individuals from having their own opinions, did I?

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    72. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by radarjd · · Score: 1
      I'd disagree with you here, if the slavery of one could produce the greatest happiness for the greatest number, Utilitarianism would advocate slavery...

      True, you got me there. I'm presupposing that even the slavery of one cannot produce the greatest happiness, but that is probably an open question. I would argue that the slavery of one inevitably leads to the slavery of many, which in turn cannot be justified, but I guess that too is open... At the same time, at least utilitarianism provides a basis for argument -- each of us could pick a side and say that slavery, in any form, does not produce the greatest happiness because it leads to overthrow of the civilization by the oppressed, or devaluation of life by the society, or a number of other arguments.

      My biggest problem with utilitarianism, though I think it has its uses, is the short term focus that many of the arguments are based on. To argue properly that slavery does not produce the greatest happiness for the greatest number, you have to look at a longer term than a few years, or even a few lifetimes.

    73. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by JesseMcDonald · · Score: 1
      Theft of service, for example, doesn't deprive anyone of anything - it merely provides the thief with something that wasn't paid for. Either way, it's still theft.

      Not to be pedantic or anything, but theft of service only occurs when one person persuades another to perform some service on his/her behalf with the understanding that the person performing the services will be paid for their efforts. It is considered a theft of labour, which is considered a form of personal property. In all cases, there is a contract, verbal agreement, or other positive evidence that both parties agreed in advance that the service had a specific value to both the buyer and the seller. Thus, the fraudulent buyer is indeed depriving the seller of something of value -- his/her labour.

      In contrast, when copyright infringement takes place, the labour has already occurred. The infringer has not tricked the author into performing any service. The author chose to perform the labour of his or her own accord, without any promise of payment. The infringer has, in fact, not entered into any agreement at all with the author directly, and yet the author mistakenly believes he or she has the right to control the infringer's actions for his or her own financial benefit. It's a basic economic principle, really: if you want to receive something of value for your labour, you have to find someone willing to pay for it ahead of time. You can't just do the work and then expect anyone who benefits to pay you whatever you ask. There has to be an agreement in place beforehand. For example, if I knew you wanted your lawn mowed, and just came over and did it for you without asking, and then gave you a bill for $5,000 for the service, you'd probably laugh in my face (or sue me for trespassing). You would certainly be under no obligation to pay me for my labour, because there is no agreement in place between us.

      Our government made an agreement with authors and inventors, granting them exclusive powers over the actions of other citizens with regard to physical and digital representations of specific ideas. It's an agreement that a large fraction of this country's citizens do not agree with, and have no intention of abiding by. Since the authority of the goverment is derived from the will of its citizens, the government does not have the authority to force its citizens to abide by any agreement opposed by a large fraction (and possibly a majority) of its population. The government has two options at its disposal: end the agreement, or abuse its power outside of its rightful authority by continuing to make agreements on its citizens' behalf against their will. It is a sign of how far our goverment has strayed from its origins that the latter is even seriously considered.

      --
      "The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
    74. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by kaffiene · · Score: 1

      The world's ethics are not set by you, or me, or any individual. They are the current mood of the population. Sure, now the whole concept of slavery seems barbaric, but back in the day, slavery was deemed acceptable/ethical. That's the whole point!

      Bravo to you for taking cultural relativism to its absurd extreme. The idea has moved from a challenge to be open minded, to the conclusion of all of philosophy. Gone are thousands of years of thought on what mankind could acheive, and we, in our profound wisdom, have replaced it with the "philosophy" that what is moral is what the majority of people say is moral.

      Slavery isn't acceptable, no matter what time or what place. I don't care if 90% of people agree to it, those 90% are wrong. Whether you take a utilitarian, or absolutist, or just about any doctrine I can think of besides cultural relativism, it's wrong.

      "News for nerds" -- aren't nerds supposed to be in favor of logic and reason? No sound logic or tenable reason can arrive at many of the junk ideas that float around here. You tell me how humanity is better by saying "what's moral is what we think is moral" -- give me some sort of reason based argument that isn't premised on "it makes us feel better."

      It's this line of thinking that allows extremism, hatred, and tyranny. The line has to be drawn somewhere, and even those originating the ideas of relativism would accept that.



      Why do you suppose that logic and reason has anything to do with morality? That's like saying that mathematics can tell you whether a painting is pretty or not.


      Moral discussion are NOT discussions of facts and reason has no baring on them. You can reason from moral axioms, but reason has no influence on what set of moral axioms you start with, and if two people differ in their moral starting points, no amount of logical discussion will make them see eye-to eye. The best they will get is to find out where they differ - the level of moral axioms.



      No Kitty, it is you who is deluded!



      Hume basically nailed the problem. To quote Charles Pigden, Hume's view was "moral truths are not arrived at by reasoning but are the products of a moral sense". Which is true, IMO, and is why your infatuation with reason and logic is impotent against morality as it actually occurs in nature.



      If it makes you feel better, I worship logic and reason every bit as much as you, but unlike you, I realise that logic and reason have their limits. Go and make a christian change their view by deriving the existence of a non-compassionate God due to the existence of evil and see how far your logic works in the real world. :o)

    75. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by lgw · · Score: 1

      Few would argue that mere consistency proves that an ethical code is correct. Further, everyone, in practice, follows an ethical code with some inconsistency (as the problem set is just too big to "manually" check for any possible problem). Why should the code remain invariant when the parties are shuffled? It's nice that that meta-rule appeals to you, but so what? Similar comments could be made on any other meta-ethical principle you care to name. There's not even a system of logic that gets one from "A is true" to "one ought to do B".

      That's the sad fact of meta-ethics. There are no axioms, except those chosen arbitrarily. There are no rules of inference, except those chosen arbitrarily.

      Suppose I build a code of ethics, but I don't follow them. I am violating ethics at a fundamental level. IMHO, that is the circumstances of a majority of civilization.

      Suppose you build 14 mutually exclusive codes of ethics. You're violating at least 13 of the at a fundamental level. Now what? I'm comforted that I'm unlikely to go to more than one Hell.

      The circumstance of the majority of civilization is that any formal cod of ethics is just hot air - a system to rationalize what has already been decided. What really matters is that small core of actions that each of us finds completely unacceptable. In practice a proposed ethical code is evaluated not by reasoning from first principles, but by a test of consistency with anarbitrary set of core values. Even philosophers work this way. Culture is the commonality of these core values across a group of people.

      It's not even cultural relativism - it's cultural absolutism: "my values are axiomatically correct, your culture is defective to the extent it is inconsistent." Almost everyone, acts consistently with their core values, however; it's just that those are often unrelated to the ethics they claim to believe in. Again, so what?

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    76. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by Watts+Martin · · Score: 1

      Look, while this is somewhat off-topic, I think it's important to understand that at least some of the "antibushitarians" like myself are ultimately critics of this administration not because of choices they made that we wouldn't have (not solely, anyway) -- reasonable people can disagree over a wide range of topics, and even though I may not be persuaded by some of the arguments the Bush supporters have made about various actions, most of those arguments are at least reasoned. No, the criticism is that more than any other administration I'm aware of, the Bush administration has a demonstrable and pervasive disdain for the ideas of accountability and transparency. They want to conduct as much of their activities as they can in secrecy and they impugn the integrity and patriotism of anyone who criticizes this. And this is a really profoundly worrisome precedent for anyone who cares about responsible -- or even responsive -- government.

      As to Guantanamo and who's held there, the poster you cheered on in particular might want to read this Washington Post piece by a lawyer who wrote:

      [My client] is innocent. I don't mean he claims to be. I mean the military says so. It held a secret tribunal and ruled that he is not al Qaeda, not Taliban, not a terrorist. The whole thing was a mistake: The Pentagon paid $5,000 to a bounty hunter, and it got taken. The military people reached this conclusion, and they wrote it down on a memo, and then they classified the memo and Adel went from the hearing room back to his prison cell. He is a prisoner today, eight months later. And [...] only habeas corpus revealed that it wasn't just Adel who was innocent -- it was Abu Bakker and Ahmet and Ayoub and Zakerjain and Sadiq -- all Guantanamo "terrorists" whom the military has found innocent.

      I know that what happens to "suspected terrorists" seems awfully remote: sure, the president has extraordinary powers to designate someone, even an American citizen, as an "enemy combatant" and whisk them off into a secretive system where they lose many constitutional rights, but it's quite a stretch to say he's going to abuse that power, right? It's Chicken Little hyperbole to think that expanding executive powers under the auspices of wartime is a harbinger of impending fascism.

      But the question isn't what this president will do with that power, but what that power will allow any president to do. Think of a president you don't like with the power to do that, or even one you might generally like who falls under the sway of a Joe McCarthy type who sees enemies under every rock. Or, hell, ask the folks who call a certain Senator from New York "Hitlery Clinton" if they'd really like her to have that power. And if these are "wartime powers," when do they end when the war is against not a state but a concept? There will, after all, always be terrorism.

      And before you think the abuse of that power to really go after political opponents is so far-fetched in today's America, ask yourself what's traditionally kept that power in check. Look, they're back: transparency and accountability! Our entire political system is supposed to function on the premise that no one branch of government has power that's so broad that we, the American people, have to just trust them not to abuse it. But that's exactly the kind of power that the Bush administration has been arguing they need.

      So the next time an "antibushitarian" gets a little twitchy when someone says that by criticizing the president they're "supporting the terrorists," think about what that accusation really means. And when that's being used to describe the political opponents of an administration that's created a whole new prison system expressly designed to be as opaque as possible...

    77. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by radarjd · · Score: 1
      Moral discussion are NOT discussions of facts and reason has no baring on them. You can reason from moral axioms, but reason has no influence on what set of moral axioms you start with, and if two people differ in their moral starting points, no amount of logical discussion will make them see eye-to eye. The best they will get is to find out where they differ - the level of moral axioms.

      I think, perhaps, that you misundertand what I said, Kitty. Cultural relativism provides no place to reason from, and that invalidates it, at least to my way of thinking. The axiom "Act A is right if sufficient people believe it's right" is not an equal to "Act A is right if it gives the greatest happiness for the greatest number of people".

      Let's say you have a society of relativists and a society of utilitarians. The relativists, asked if A is right, cannot give an answer. They can only say that A is believed by group Y. The utilitarians can say A leads to happiness or destruction and therefore our society should engage in it.

      Ethics (as defined in one of my other posts by Mariam-Webster or Reference.com) requires some guide to decide what is right. Relativism is no such guide -- utilitarianism, or Christianity, is. I myself am Christian and believe myself to be quite reasonable and logical (though this is slashdot, and that's considered a contradiction, I realize). Given what I believe is a base, I attempt to reason what is good for myself, and my family, and my country.

      So perhaps you and I agree, only I was not as clear in my statement.

      your infatuation with reason and logic is impotent against morality as it actually occurs in nature.

      And perhaps we don't. I don't think logic and reason are impotent against morality as it actually occurs. That implies that no one could be pursuaded under any circumstances that utilitarianism leads to exploitation, or absolutism leads to intolerance. You appear to dislike Christianity based on your perception of the actions of God, and I imagine that is based in some reason, even though I would disagree with it.

      Perhaps for many people, reason and logic are impotent, but that is not, I think a law of nature, but one of socialization.

      And don't call me Kitty.

    78. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by Arandir · · Score: 1

      But the question isn't what this president will do with that power, but what that power will allow any president to do.

      Where were you when Clinton was president? Oh that's right! President's only do wrong when they are Republicans.

      I am neither a Democrat or Republican, yet I can't help but noticing that the Democrats define morality in terms of party affiliation. This is why I invented the term "antibushitarian", because the Democrat Party has ceased being a party of principle and now reactively opposes anything advocated or done by Bush. Bush could help an old lady cross the street and some Democrat leader would be bitching about it on CNN in less than an hour later.

      I do NOT want presidents to be given extraordinary powers, and I am pleased beyond measure that you also believe this. But where were you during the Clinton administration? Why was NO ONE concerned about extraordinary presidential powers until Bush? I've asked this question before, and I've always gotten the same response: "I was just a kid" back then. Goddammit! Is there ANYONE who from the left side of the fence who criticized Clinton between 1992 and 2000?

      --
      A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
    79. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by shiftless · · Score: 1

      That's nice. The grandparent was right; morality is defined by each culture. What is immoral in Alabama is commonplace in New Guinea and a deadly sin in India. Cultural relativism is how the world works. There is no such thing as "absolute morality", other than what exists in the minds of philosophers, Southern Baptist preachers, and self-important Slashdot inhabitants.

    80. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by OzRoy · · Score: 1

      To take this in the other direction.

      Do you believe sex before marriage is ethical?
      Do you believe allowing women to vote is ethical?

      There are just as many conservative ideas that used to be unethical and "isn't acceptable, no matter what time or what place" that are no longer considered unethical.

      There are many things that happen today that will probably be considered unethical in the future.

      Like it or not society determins societies ethics. Society changes, so do ethics.

    81. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      when an act is accepted by a significant proportion of the population, chances are that act is ethical


      You mean, like slavery in the US 200 years ago?

      If you accept the premise that the population slaves were drawn from were not human but savage sub-humans, then, well yeah, it is like owning an ox. How obviously wrong was this to people 200 years ago? Obvious to some not others. Kind of like copyright. Don't deploy Godwin's cousin. It doesn't work.

    82. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by symbolic · · Score: 1

      Not to be pedantic or anything, but theft of service only occurs when one person persuades another to perform some service on his/her behalf with the understanding that the person performing the services will be paid for their efforts

      I like your well-written response, but this isn't true all of the time. Consider the individual go goes out and purchases a descrambler for their cable connection. Or the person who uncaps their modem. Or the person who drops off their trash in a dumpster belonging to a commercial entity of some kind. Neither of these involve persuasion, or another individual.

      The infringer has, in fact, not entered into any agreement at all with the author directly, and yet the author mistakenly believes he or she has the right to control the infringer's actions for his or her own financial benefit. It's a basic economic principle, really: if you want to receive something of value for your labour, you have to find someone willing to pay for it ahead of time. You can't just do the work and then expect anyone who benefits to pay you whatever you ask.

      This doesn't make any sense. In a free market, various business entities routinely create products based on what they think consumers might be willing to pay for them. Investors fund the speculative nature of these efforts, not consumers. Consumers spend their money on what they can see and what they can have now, not what someone might produce at some point in the future. I don't see how it could work otherwise. Entertainment is no different - the end result is still a product, but the nature of its existence makes it very easy to circumvent normal market dynamics.

    83. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by NormalVisual · · Score: 1

      Bombing the camps might have made some kind of moral sense perhaps, but I think it would have done precious little to slow down the exterminations. Hitler was determined in his course of genocide, and would quickly have found other ways to "purify" his society. In any event, a fairly small percentage of the camps were operated for the purpose of mass exterminations, and one has to distinguish between work camps like Dachau and death camps like Auschwitz. Bombing the work camps would quite possibly have cost more lives than it would have saved.

      --
      Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
    84. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by Kjella · · Score: 1

      Slavery isn't acceptable, no matter what time or what place. I don't care if 90% of people agree to it, those 90% are wrong.

      The problem with an absolute view of morality is that it presumes that we currently know what is moral and not. If moral standards have been wrong in the past, yet we now know what is right there should be no moral changes in future. That this is the point in time where the absolute truth of morality was found. I think you would concede that this is unlikely. And that places all your absolute morality in doubt.

      There are different sets of morality based on different axioms. You have this in mathematics with three forms of geometry: euclidian, curved and hyperbole. One is not right and the two other wrong, they are each correct given the axioms. What you are trying to say is that if we take away the shifting opinions of morality, we are left with some axioms. Perhaps you are simply ignoring the counterexamples as bad morality, or that there hasn't been a fundamental enough shift in morality yet.

      "All men are created equal" and "The aryan race is superior, the negroid race is inferior" are fundamentally different axioms. If you try to argue it, you only start going in circles about them being equal because it maximizes utility and their utility is equally much worth because they are equal. I can argue it a thousand ways, but I can not prove by "logic and reason" that white equals black or fat equals thin any more than I prove that red equals blue.

      The only thing I can do is point you to concrete desired outcomes (e.g. do to others what you want others to do to you) and show you that means upholding these values, and show you the consequences and my percieved injustices of your actions. Logic and reason goes a long way towards that, but ultimately it can do no more than that. Arguing against an axiom is like trying to argue against the words "It's the will of God".

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    85. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by Durf · · Score: 1

      The point is, when an act is accepted by a significant proportion of the population, chances are that act is ethical

      Wait, using Windows is ethical? Is this really Slashdot?

    86. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by JesseMcDonald · · Score: 1
      I like your well-written response, but this isn't true all of the time. Consider the individual go goes out and purchases a descrambler for their cable connection. Or the person who uncaps their modem. Or the person who drops off their trash in a dumpster belonging to a commercial entity of some kind. Neither of these involve persuasion, or another individual.

      Thanks for the considerate reply. It's nice to hear fron someone with reasonable criticism.

      I must point out that none of the examples that you gave are limited to actual theft of service. In the cable example, the cable company enters into a contract to provide their signal in exchange for payment and the customer's promise to only use approved equipment. It's in the "terms of service" agreement. The cable company is under no obligation to provide signals that are not listed in the contract, and the customer is under no obligations beyond those in the contract either. If the customer did not agree to the terms, the cable company would not connect their equipment to the cable network, which is their property and is subject to trespass laws should anyone get the idea to tap into the signal him/herself. The modem example is similar. I would be interested in any cases where putting trash into a dumpster on another's property was considered theft of service, since that clearly falls under the category of trespass. There's no need to cover it with a second law. Furthermore, none of these examples involve any extra cost on the part of the person providing the service, and thus the only losses are potential, not actual, sales. Only actual losses count as damages.

      Consumers spend their money on what they can see and what they can have now, not what someone might produce at some point in the future. I don't see how it could work otherwise. Entertainment is no different - the end result is still a product, but the nature of its existence makes it very easy to circumvent normal market dynamics.

      If customers are not willing to pay for things that haven't yet been released, then how do stadiums manage to sell tickets for sports games and concerts? The evidence would suggest that people are indeed willing to invest in entertainment on a speculative basis, as long as the performers are well-known or well-recommended. Perhaps authors should try selling tickets in advance for their book releases, with ticket-holders getting the first copies?

      --
      "The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
    87. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by jp10558 · · Score: 1

      I think what he means is the 60+ Million downloaders. When there are as many people breaking a law as voiting for president, I think that counds as widespread. When it's on the scale of prohibition style breaking of the liquor laws... there is a problem.

      --
      Opera, Proxomitron-Grypen,GPG 0x0A1C6EE3
    88. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by Skim123 · · Score: 1

      But mass exterminations weren't possible until they systematized the process. Early on in the war the SS squads would round up and execute the undesireables, but it was slow and had a high mental cost on the soldiers doing the killing. The gas chambers made killings millions feasible both logistically and psychologically. Had those been taken out of commission, what would Hitler have done? Divert precious few materials from those factories yet to be bombed to build more gas chambers? Remember that the time we're talking about is pretty late in the war when the Allies were clearly on the path to victory...

      --

      I could not justify my existence if I were a turkey farmer. Would I terminate myself? Undoubtably, yes.

    89. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 1

      Congradulations, this is the first comment I've read that's truly relevant to TFA.

    90. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by Watts+Martin · · Score: 1

      I was being grumpy during the Clinton administration, too, just not as grumpy. But if you don't think anyone from "the left side" criticized Clinton during the Clinton years, you were probably listening to what conservatives said liberals were saying about Clinton, rather than what liberals actually *were* saying. :)

      He routinely took heat from civil liberties types who were concerned with his administration's policies toward individual privacy, for example, and for that matter, government transparency; his administration was arguably the second worst in recent memory when it came to such matters behind the current one, and the criticisms that have been made about the Bush administration being more concerned with corporations than individuals were a pretty constant chorus from the anti-corporate left against Clinton, too. Liberal columnist Molly Ivins' book about the Clinton years, "You Gotta Dance With Them That Brung Ya," said she gave it that title because the publisher wouldn't let her go with her initial title she thought summed up her feelings about the administration: "Nausea."

      One of the things that's actually struck me as most peculiar in recent years, in fact, is how unwilling Republicans have been to criticize their own compared to Democrats. When Clinton did things that weren't canonically "Democratic" like massive industry deregulation and slashing welfare, groups anywhere to the left of the rather centrist DLC lit into him pretty viciously. When Bush did things like massively *expanding* welfare programs and ballooning deficits, most of the right (other than groups that are really more libertarian, like Cato) seemed to bite their tongues.

    91. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by The_Quinn · · Score: 1

      My, what a horrible little subjectivist you are. I don't know why you bother speaking at all - you can't possible believe there is some objective reality that your words refer to.

    92. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't forget that most major broadband ISPs block known server ports and restrict you from running servers in their EULA.

      SBC/Yahoo DSL does not have the server restriction you mention. Comcast cable does though.

    93. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      Bah, why should I listen to you? After all, you might just be a figment of my own imagination! ; )

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    94. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by Dirtside · · Score: 1
      It has been a long time, a very long time, since copyrights expired after only fourteen years.
      Don't be disingenuous. 28 years is still a hell of a lot shorter than life of the author plus seventy years. Absurdly long copyrights only started showing up in 1976, which is not "a very long time." Anyway, who cares how long it's been? 14 years was long enough to begin with, and it's plenty long enough now, especially given how fast the life cycle of copyrighted materials has become.
      --
      "Destroy science and religion. Science would re-emerge exactly the same; but not religion." - Penn Jillette, paraphrased
    95. Re:Internet freedom isn't going anywhere. by khallow · · Score: 1
      Few would argue that mere consistency proves that an ethical code is correct.

      Good point, but a grossly inconsistent ethical code isn't going to be fair. We have a lot of history backing that up.

      Why should the code remain invariant when the parties are shuffled?

      Because a code of ethics shouldn't be dependent on your point of view. Eg, for an ethical code about the obligations of a pet and its master to one another, it shouldn't matter whether your point of view is the pet or the master. My point here is that our codes of ethics shouldn't vary that much.

      It's nice that that meta-rule appeals to you, but so what? Similar comments could be made on any other meta-ethical principle you care to name. There's not even a system of logic that gets one from "A is true" to "one ought to do B".

      But if you use logic to build a system of ethics (for some definitions of ethics, this is a tautology), then you can manage the inconsistency problem. Frankly, I think inconsistency is a real problem because it so often is used for an excuse to make harmful choices.

      Suppose you build 14 mutually exclusive codes of ethics. You're violating at least 13 of the at a fundamental level. Now what? I'm comforted that I'm unlikely to go to more than one Hell.

      Well, that would be an inconsistent code, wouldn't it? My point though is that many people are violating the key purpose of ethics, namely, if you have a code of ethics, then attempt to follow it. In other words, these people have decided that certain things are unethical or even "wrong", but they do them anyway. This is the key problem with the assertion that there's an ethics of the majority. Many people have no code of ethics (not even ethical nihilism) and many of those that do, don't follow their code of ethics.

      It's not even cultural relativism - it's cultural absolutism: "my values are axiomatically correct, your culture is defective to the extent it is inconsistent." Almost everyone, acts consistently with their core values, however; it's just that those are often unrelated to the ethics they claim to believe in. Again, so what?

      I don't see a problem with that. If a cultural system of ethics is inconsistent, then it is defective to the degree that it is inconsistent. The inconsistency might mitigate a greater deficiency. For example, judges in criminal court cases (law being an example of applied ethics, if you please) routinely consider mitigating or aggrevating circumstances in deciding what punishment to assign. This leads to inconsistencies across judges (no two judges are the same), but laws can't handle every contigency (and well-written ones don't try).

  2. I sense a great disturbance in the force by farker+haiku · · Score: 5, Funny

    as if millions of bytes of ram screamed in agony, and were suddenly silenced. /.ed before any comments isn't a good sign.

    --
    Your sig(k) has been stolen. There is a puff of smoke!
    1. Re:I sense a great disturbance in the force by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Well, that's what MirrorDot is for.

    2. Re:I sense a great disturbance in the force by zufar · · Score: 1
      ./=DoS :)

      Linux Journal Is Currently Unavailable Due to a Denial of Service (DoS) Attack

    3. Re:I sense a great disturbance in the force by HardCase · · Score: 1

      Netcraft confirms it: The Internet is dead.

  3. Timing? by suso · · Score: 1, Interesting

    So if this is so important to read, why is it being posted so late at night in the region where this article should have the most impact.

    1. Re:Timing? by buswolley · · Score: 2, Funny

      Nothing to see here. Move along.

      --

      A Good Troll is better than a Bad Human.

    2. Re:Timing? by Arandir · · Score: 1

      Who the fsck modded this interesting? I don't know who samzenpus is, but maybe he had insomnia and decided to check the queue late at night. Or maybe he doesn't live in your timezone and it wasn't posted at midnight where he lives. Or maybe he does but he thought it important enough NOT TO DELAY FOR EIGHT HOURS!

      This isn't the 1:00AM News where only the insomniacs hear the story. It's ten hours later and the story is STILL on the front page of Slashdot! Untwist your panties and get on with life.

      --
      A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
  4. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 4, Funny

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  5. Well... by briancarnell · · Score: 1

    Yes, he could have made it longer, but probably would have made even less sense than it does now. Searls never seems to be able to write anything that is easily understandable except by the small group of people who think just like he does. Sorry, but one comment in a single article by an SBC flak does not the end of the Internet make.

    1. Re:Well... by ClamIAm · · Score: 1

      Quick recap for those lacking reading comprehension (It's OK, it's the middle of the night. I'm not expecting anything, especially on /.):

      1. The content and carrier industries want to control the net (big surprise). They can do this if they lobby Congress hard enough for favorable legislations (read: deregulation). Deregulating an industry that was grown under regulation will basicaly create a monopoly.
      2. Corporations have won the war on copyright and technology law because they frame their arguments in ways we think about things. Naturally the ways they choose are ones that appeal to American lawmakers and judges. I hear they can also basically print their own money.
      3. The other side (us) has often either chosen bad metaphors or tried to outplay the corporations at their own game. Framing your arguments in a way that doesn't assume the traditional view of American property ownership won't get you many points in a courtroom or in Washington.
      4. The internet can be best metaphorized (if that's possible) as a PLACE, not just a bunch of pipes. The internet is a place where any end can talk to any other end. If we allow the corporate dream, this power will go away, and tolls will be put up. Imagine a bazaar where all communication was dictated and watched by one or two people. These authorities also have license to do whatever they want, because they aren't regulated by anyone, and you are in the space they own. It wouldn't be very easy to just go see what people are offering or to try and reach the greatest market for your product.
      5. We have to fight if we want the Internet to be passed on to future generations with the same power and possibility that exists on it today. Fighting means picking good arguments. Good arguments means learning from the above.

  6. Greed... by grasshoppa · · Score: 4, Interesting

    ...still one of my favorite sins.

    That and pride are the two things causing the current dark ages of the internet.

    And make no mistake, we are in what future scholars will call the dark ages. We have this wonderful tool for communication which would enable vast networks of not just information, but concepts and ideas to be shared globally. And we are letting ( yes, letting ) big companies/governments take control and destroy this wonderful tool. All to satisfy some board of share holders, or some CEO's pride.

    Whether they see us as the depth of the dark ages, or the beginning is the question I worry about.

    --
    Mod me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
    1. Re:Greed... by Basehart · · Score: 1, Funny

      "And make no mistake, we are in what future scholars will call the dark ages."

      And those scholars will be in what future scholars will call the mauve ages.

    2. Re:Greed... by Shihar · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Do you honestly think that we are in a 'dark ages'? We are accelerating so quickly technologically and connecting so fast that I don't think the average human comprehends it. Think back just 10 years ago. Most people were not connected to the Internet. Internet usage has sky rocketed up faster then anything in our wildest dreams. Further, it isn't even the Internet. Cell phones are another fine example. I remember being awed by my friends massive clunky cell phone in the mid 90's that got shit for reception. Now, it is easier to count the people I know who don't own a cell phone then it is to count the people that do. I got a jump drive I keep in my pocket the other day for $20 with more hard drive space then the computer I owned back in 95.

      Further, it isn't just technology that is interconnecting. The entire world is interconnecting. China, EU, and the US are all so dependent upon each other that any sort of conflict between them is unthinkable to the point that loss of one could lead to a collapsing (or at least crippled) society in the others.

      Look, I am not saying that everything is rosy colored and wonderful, but point to a time in history that was better. Do you long for the brutal dictatorships that existed almost exclusively up until the past few centuries? Do you miss the wonderful days of the industrial revolution when it was common place to die early and lose a hand in hazardous machinery? Maybe you miss the days of American expansion westward and European colonialism that chewed up the natives they got in the way. Do you long for the days when a married woman couldn't own property, much less vote? Maybe you miss the good old days of New Deal, complete with withering racism and World War. Maybe your nostalgia only reaches back a couple days and blindly forgets the Korean War, the Vietnam War, the ever present and very real threat of nuclear annihilation, and starvation in the millions that afflicted pretty much everyone on the Asian content. If this is the Dark Ages, what the hell exactly was everything that came before this time?

      This is only "The Dark Ages" is you are a jaded liberal who has some how managed to shrink his view of history down to the past 6 years or so. Stop, take a deep breath, and realize that 6 years is a hiccup in the grand scheme of things. Further, even in those 6 years things have gotten better despite Bush's ham fisted blundering. Further still, things are better now then they were at any other time in history.

      Honestly, take a deep breath and realize that the world isn't so bad. You can post angry rants on Slashdot, you clearly have an Internet connection, chances are you can vote, and I imagine you probably are not starving. Those four things alone make this time in history better then all the times before it. Relax and don't let today's day to day politics get you all worked up and taint your view of history in the long term.

    3. Re:Greed... by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 1
      And we are letting ( yes, letting ) big companies/governments take control and destroy this wonderful tool.


      Where do you think this "wonderful tool" came from?
      --
      There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
    4. Re:Greed... by killjoe · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I would like to point out that it was the liberals who fought for womens rights, civil rights, clean air, and unions. They are still fighting for more and are still being resisted by the same forces.

      I suppose it all depends on whether you look at the glass as being half full or half empty. In this day and age we have the power and the technology to ensure that nobody is starving, that nobody has to die from poverty or war or famine. All it takes is a little money and little will.

      --
      evil is as evil does
    5. Re:Greed... by Shihar · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I would like to point out that it was the liberals who fought for womens rights, civil rights, clean air, and unions. They are still fighting for more and are still being resisted by the same forces.

      Don't take my comment that liberals think the world is coming to an end as a statement against liberals. My point was more that liberals are more inclined to look for the doom and gloom over the past few years and declare that the world is about to come to an end. Pick a broad liberal ideal; civil rights, health care quality/coverage, infant mortality/life expectancy, hunger, tolerance, wages / hours, whatever, it is better today then it was 50 years ago. We are even more well off if you look a 100 years back. Look 200 years back and the difference is so stark that it isn't even a meaningful comparison. The liberals are winning.

      If anyone has reason to cry doom and gloom it is actually the right wing folks. All of their 'morality' issues are being hacked to pieces. There is more sex for non reproductive purposes, greater acceptance of homosexuals, proportionally fewer marriages, more broken homes, and all of the bread and butter of a conservative platform. Hell, the fact that we are at the point where we can even have a gay marriage debate is rocking conservatives to the core. Just 15 years back, talking about gay marriage would illicit roughly the response of talking about bestiality.

      I suppose it all depends on whether you look at the glass as being half full or half empty. In this day and age we have the power and the technology to ensure that nobody is starving, that nobody has to die from poverty or war or famine. All it takes is a little money and little will.

      There certainly is more that could be done, but the relics of the past do not easily die. There is no amount of money, technology, and will that could make North Korea a happy place unless by 'happy place' you mean 'war zone'. War and famine are political problems. No one in this world should starve. Not only do we have more then enough food for everyone, but we are trying to get that food to the people. Somalia is a perfect example of this. Somalians are not starving because the rest of the world is unwilling to feed them. Somalians are starving because short of going in guns blazing, we can't we can't keep our aid out of the hands of warlords. In fact, this very dilemma is what resulted in the US invading Somalia. We wanted to give them food. We had the food and the means to get it there; we just needed to keep warlords from taking it. If you recall, things didn't go so well when we tried to intervene (IE see Black Hawk Down).

      So sure, we could certainly do more, it just boils down to disagreement as to how to do more (does globalism hurt or help?), and the problems with humans some times sucking no matter how much power and technology you have. The larger point is that even though we certainly screw up, fail politically, and in general act like the imperfect humans that we are, we are still steam rolling forward. Things are getting better. A political charged look at the best 6 years might make you think differently, but the second you look at this era from a historical point of view, it quickly becomes clear which direction things are headed. Now is a great time to be alive.

    6. Re:Greed... by leomekenkamp · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think both you and the grandparent are right: to me you seem to be discussing different things. Indeed we are seeing great advantage, but if mankind is still alive 750 years ahead in time, the humans living in that age will think we were a bit silly and 'medieval'.

      If grantparent would have made the same argument in the middle ages, you could have succesfully made the same sort of counter argument: "Look at the cities, our churches! We have the Word of our Lord now! And we have a justice system!"

      IMHO grantparent tries to look at how we are now through the eyes of someone from the future.

      --
      Wenn ist das Nunstueck git und Slotermeyer? Ja! Beiherhund das Oder die Flipperwaldt gersput.
    7. Re:Greed... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "..... unless by 'happy place' you mean 'fascist dictatorship'."

      fixed.

    8. Re:Greed... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Greed and pride do not violate the natural human rights of any person. Those qualities may offend certain people, but there is a world of difference between offending a person, and actually initiating force against that person. The former is morally just; the latter is not.

      If a person "commits" greed or pride in your presence, but still respects the natural human rights of others, interacting only on the principle of voluntary association (he doesn't initiate force as a means to his greed or pride), then what exactly are you concerned about? Greed and pride are no threat to you, unless they are backed by an actual initiation of force (like theft, fraud, physical attack, government, or some other form of coercion).

      The fact that some people refer to those traits as "sins" says more about them then it does about greed and pride.

    9. Re:Greed... by C0vardeAn0nim0 · · Score: 1

      we are certainly entering one.

      when people stop caring for their freedoms, handle more and more power to government/church/corporations without receiving it back, in other words, when people get tired of thinking for themselves, this is the beggining of a dark age.

      nobody, except a few, cares anymore if the reason for a war is the greed of a few corporations and their puppet-president, nobody cares if the consolidation of large corporations would hurt them by allowing price fixing and monopolistic pratices, nobody seem to care that a cartel of media companies are keeping them oblivion to all those things happening.

      soon we'll see (well, actually we won't "see", per se) content being blocked at router level. anything that speaks against the interests of the corporations giving a "connection reset by peer"...

      it's scary what the future holds...

      --
      What ? Me, worry ?
    10. Re:Greed... by Bonobo_Unknown · · Score: 1

      In other news... the secretary of defence Donald Rumsfeld arrived in Australia yesterday to talk about, amongst other things a military alliance to wage war on China should it decide to invade Taiwan.

      cat the_world > /dev/null

      --
      We don't believe in radical loony monotheistic religions from the middle east -- we're Christians.
    11. Re:Greed... by trianglecat · · Score: 1

      You make some excellent points here. I agree whole heartedly with you that the world is a better place today than any time in history. That said, haven't you agreed with part of his point? The world is advancing... the internet is young and maturing at an astrnomical rate. Future generations will surely look back on this as at least the "stone age" of the internet. Surely they will look back at broadband the same way we look at 2800 baud? Whether the age is "dark" is a different story.

    12. Re:Greed... by ClamIAm · · Score: 1

      We aren't in a dark age yet. If we allow the carrier and content lobbies to get their way, we still won't be in a dark age. We'll be in an age that's similar to most other ages of history. One where a few at the top control access to a resource, and most at the bottom don't realize there's a better way. What these indutries want is basically "Internet Feudalism", where a few people control everything and most serfs don't realize there's a better way. They don't have to compete because they know no other competitors can arise without something drastically changing. The irony is that they stand now to gain control of a resource that had the power to topple them, if only the serfs had realized it.

    13. Re:Greed... by bonius_rex · · Score: 1
      Just 15 years back, talking about gay marriage would illicit roughly the response of talking about bestiality.

      You might want to google senator Rick "man on dog" Santorum. He made that exact comparison recently.

    14. Re:Greed... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      And as always, someone misses the point. We don't have to look on the macro scale and go "Well, as a whole everything is working pretty good for us, so times must be super!". And indeed, except for some horribly massive cockups by the people trying to rob us of our freedoms, if we looked at the biggest picture all the time for comparison, we wouldn't notice much of anything wrong. The point is that slowly, a little at a time, we are being weaned off of the rights we had previously expected as given no matter what. And most people out there don't even notice. It's all supposed to slip beneath the radar. How about going back over some of the laws passed within the last 10 to 15 years, and seeing what it does to the technology that is "accelerating so quickly". See what we've been forced to give up in the name of "security" and "entertainment".

    15. Re:Greed... by ClamIAm · · Score: 1

      This is only "The Dark Ages" is you are a jaded liberal

      STOP. Just stop. Who are the people (at least in the US) who are claiming our society is going all to hell? CONSERVATIVES. Granted they squawk loudest about "social" issues, but support of Intelligent Design doesn't give me much hope for science. They are also the ones slashing budgets for things like education and public services (medicine, transportation) that EVERYONE benefit from, unlike in times considered "Dark Ages" where only wealthy landowners could afford these things.

      I'm not saying that "liberals" are all wonderful saviors. I'm saying that your cheap-shot rhetoric is not only wrong factually, it is also very revealing of your level of critical thinking.

    16. Re:Greed... by smchris · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Talk of cell phones, flash drives, ghz, gigabytes, baud rate.

      Toys.

      Where is any mention of _culture_?

      Aren't we in a war right now on the excuse that our nation can march in and replace another nation's 4,000 years of culture with our own as easily as Epcot Center would replace one national exhibit with another? Barbarians. Our leaders don't have a clue what culture _is_ or that it exists as a force to recognize.

      And they hate science on top of it. Anyone with cable now has access to documentaries on the mating habits of Amazonian tree slugs. So what? I remember when Mr. Wizard used to both entertain and teach scientific _method_ at the same time.

      And they want to mold our economy into a new feudalism. Look back six years? Let's look back thirty. I heard yesterday that it takes two wage earners now to maintain the family standard of living that one wage earner could produce in 1975.

      Health care? Well, we can talk some more about cool tech toys, but the facts are that the average Cuban is healthier than the average American.

      Voting? Doesn't mean diddley compared to _counting_.

      No, there are plenty of reasons to be pessimistic. What could be a better definition of a Dark Ages than governance by an elite class of barbarians?

      (tech toys notwithstanding -- nerd allusion: Damon Knight's A for Anything)

    17. Re:Greed... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Shihar wrote:

      "This is only "The Dark Ages" is you are a jaded liberal who has some how managed to shrink his view of history down to the past 6 years or so. Stop, take a deep breath, and realize that 6 years is a hiccup in the grand scheme of things."

      That's exactly the point IMO -- 6 years _is_ a hiccup, which is why we're still in the dark ages. You may have more disk space in your pocket than in all of humanity just a generation ago, but there's such a long way to go yet. We have many years to go before computers step out of the dark ages and become truely productivity-enhancing. The gizmos and compacity and speed and interconnectivity may seem great now, but just wait another decade or so. Give it a couple decades and you'll laugh when you realize the 00's really were the dark ages of the internet and computers in general.

    18. Re:Greed... by SilverspurG · · Score: 1

      Taxpayer money. It's complete BS that we even have to pay for access at all. We, the taxpayers, created the Internet. The government and the companies should be paying us the licensing fees to use our technology.

      Oh, but no one remembers the finer points of whose money it was that got the whole thing started. That always seems to be the least relevant point for some reason. I wonder why...

      --
      fast as fast can be. you'll never catch me.
    19. Re:Greed... by TheSync · · Score: 1

      Do you honestly think that we are in a 'dark ages'?

      Agreed, that is not true. 50 years ago, half of the U.S. did not have indoor plumbing. In 1900, only about 1 in 100 homes had a toilet or central heating. Today, 97% of U.S. homes have electricity, central heating, and modern plumbing. And the homes come with many extras unheard of even fifty years ago - storm windows, ample insulation, two car garages, and are larger on a square footage basis. U.S. homeownership is at an all-time high.

      The look globally - in the last 25 years, 500 million people have been brought out of absolute poverty (living on under $1 per day).

    20. Re:Greed... by Malor · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Pick a broad liberal ideal; civil rights, health care quality/coverage, infant mortality/life expectancy, hunger, tolerance, wages / hours, whatever, it is better today then it was 50 years ago. We are even more well off if you look a 100 years back. Look 200 years back and the difference is so stark that it isn't even a meaningful comparison. The liberals are winning.


      On most of those fronts, we are in poorer shape than we were in 1970. Tolerance is a little better now. Health 'coverage' is up, but in 1970, you could afford routine care on just your wages.

      Literacy is down. Truth in government is down. Government spending has gone to the point of self destruction. The government asserts that it can lock you up forever without a trial and without even access to lawyers. The PATRIOT Act's effects still haven't been fully understood. Civil rights, in other words, have never been in worse shape in this country. Average wages and living standards in this country are WAY down.... a small segment of the population is doing very well, while most folks struggle harder and harder with each passing year. Infant mortality is way up. Hunger is way up.

      This country is broke, way past broke, and it's only the largesse of strangers(foreigners buying dollars, mostly) that allows us to continue functioning at all.
    21. Re:Greed... by TheoMurpse · · Score: 1

      more broken homes, and all of the bread and butter of a conservative platform

      Did you just call broken homes the "bread and butter" of conservatives?

    22. Re:Greed... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ahhhh... yes, the good ole days of the Nixon administration......

    23. Re:Greed... by idsofmarch · · Score: 1
      Just a quibble, we were nominally sucessful in Somalia for a time when we were just bringing in food and medicine. However, the situation rapidly deteriorated when the US decided to 'nation-build' and in response to an attack on Pakistani troops tried to arrest Farrah Aidid. This ultimately failed as the Battle of Mogadishu--although won by US troops--resulted in casualties, including the displaying of the multilated bodies of Special Forces troops. Somalia is an example of a 'liberal' idea that went simply went awry due to the inherent limitations of military force and more so the inherent limitations of our politicians and generals. We didn't understand the situation we were getting involved in and we killed a lot of people--no one really knows how many Somalis--to learn this lesson.

      I agree with you the US, even with the hiccup we call the Bush presidency, is getting more liberal. We need to make sure this continues and that includes defending our rights against corporations who are still very interested in manipulating politicians for their own ends.

      --
      Anyone who whines about being modded down should be.
    24. Re:Greed... by Shihar · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      I don't see why me saying that liberals are running around screaming like the sky is falling is a 'cheap shot at liberals'. Personally, I completely agree with you. It is conservatives who should be running around crying doom. The fact that there is even a debate around gay marriage should scare the conservatives who worry about their social ideals shitless. If anyone can take a look at today and cry that the dark ages are upon us, it is the conservatives. They are slowly losing on every single bread and butter social issue that they have.

      As you point out, from a liberal perspective, things couldn't be much better. Every single liberal social ideal is advancing. Sure, we are not all the way there, but the direction of progress is pretty clear. My point is that liberals need to take a very deep breath and get over Bush. Yes, he drives liberals nuts. Hell, he drives conservatives nuts some times. With an approval rating of 35%, it is safe to say he is driving close to everyone nuts. That said, stop giving the guy so much credit. 8 years of Bush is not the end of the world. He doesn't control every aspect of our lives and society. He isn't going to topple the US and or the EU before he is booted out of office. We survived Regan and Britain survived Thatcher. If it is any consolation, the Republicans survived Clintons first term and some how managed to keep from resorting to mass suicide under Carter.

      My point is that society and culture is far more resilient then people give it credit. A simple example of this is the gay marriage debate. Before Bush's term in office, there was absolutely no debate on the issue. Now conservatives are in a panic and trying to quickly erect laws before their support vanishes, Massachusetts has legalized gay marriage, and unlike any time before in history in the US, there is an actual debate over the issue. If a debate over gay marriage can arise under Bush... I think that speaks pretty strongly about society and how little control a president really has over it.

    25. Re:Greed... by HardCase · · Score: 2, Informative

      On most of those fronts, we are in poorer shape than we were in 1970.

      Were you alive in 1970? I was 8 years old and I remember it. Tricky Dick was president, Vietnam was in full swing. Inflation was at 6%, heading to 13% by mid-decade. If you were black and lived in the South in 1970, you'd have a different idea of the state of tolerance today. You might want to talk to somebody who was working in 1970 to find out about paying for health care. Routine care was covered by insurance - and we spend less out of pocket today on health care than in 1970 - a lot less.

      When I was eight years old, do you know what I thought about? I thought about atomic bombs and going to fight in Southeast Asia. I had never seen a person of color. I lived in a city in the northwest that was choking on pollution. My country was led by a president who was championing a war that we shouldn't have even been peripherally involved with. The vice president was a mob stooge. My dad made $30,000 a year - a fabulous sum of money that inflation was eating away at. We had one TV and our town had two TV stations. Government spending was recklessly out of control, worse then than today, in terms of inflation adjusted dollars and percentage of GDP.

      Man, I could go on and on. Nobody who was around then can look back 30 years and say that we're in poorer shape now. "That '70's Show" isn't a handbook of the time.

      -h-

    26. Re:Greed... by zoloto · · Score: 1
      Do you long for the days when a married woman couldn't own property, much less vote?

      Yes.

      I KEEED, I KEEED!!!! *be gentle*
    27. Re:Greed... by jbolden · · Score: 1

      I don't think its true at all. Economics is probably the clearest example

      25 years ago:
      -- corporations still had to claim to serve the public good
      -- corporations had to act to benefit all their stakeholders to keep their charter renewed. When is the last time a corporations charter got denied because they didn't help the community at all?

      Public spaces were everywhere
      People believed in govenment regulation as a net good. The only question was how much is too much?
      Minimum wage, labor law... were rising and being enforced

      On social issues:
      The ERA almost passed easily, abortion, massive use of contraceptives, widespread acceptance of pornography as a right, civil rights laws, etc...

    28. Re:Greed... by Malor · · Score: 1

      I was alive in 1970, but young, only three. We were paying for the excesses of the 60s, but we had the money to pay for it. We were struggling with high oil prices, and a decline in our standard of living, but again.. average personal income peaked right around 1970 and it's never gotten to that level again. (how much house can you buy with your 2005 salary?) We didn't start running 'serious' deficits until the Carter years. It was a painful decade, but we'd fixed many of the stupidities by the end of it... and then Reagan took us off to astronomical levels of deficit spending. Borrowing money is like a drug... it feels great, but you'll pay for it. They started the whole cycle of borrow-and-spend, rather than tax and spend, which has been accelerating, and which Bush has taken to new heights.

      The reason it felt bad was because the economy was relatively honest. It doesn't feel as bad now, but that is because we are (and this is JUST the government, not personal debt) EIGHT TRILLION DOLLARS IN THE HOLE. As consumers, we are carrying absolutely unprecedented debt levels, trying desperately to hold onto the lifestyles that our parents could afford without any debt at all.

      It felt bad, because we weren't high on debt. When we start to really try to repay the money (and there is NO WAY that the debt that America now carries can EVER be repaid, at least not in dollars of the same value) we'll feel a THOUSAND times worse. You'll long for the 1970s and its relatively simple problems.

    29. Re:Greed... by sallgeud · · Score: 2, Informative
      On most of those fronts, we are in poorer shape than we were in 1970. Tolerance is a little better now. Health 'coverage' is up, but in 1970, you could afford routine care on just your wages.


      However, what you forget is that we didn't have people going to their doctor every time they got the flu, or getting flu shots, or preventitive care, mental health care and the list goes on. People show up at the Emergency room now for severe heart burn, or a bad cold, even simple viruses...

      My Grandfather went to the doctor less than once a year, and only when things were too terrible to manage with liquor and over the counter pain killers. Of course, he ended up dying of liver and throat cancer... for which he went to the doctor too late... There was no need for coverage in his younger years, because none of the miracle drugs existed... doctors didn't perscribe unnecessary treatements, etc etc.
    30. Re:Greed... by Shihar · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Everything you cite are 'means' not an 'ends'.

      -- corporations still had to claim to serve the public good
      -- corporations had to act to benefit all their stakeholders to keep their charter renewed. When is the last time a corporations charter got denied because they didn't help the community at all?


      I don't ever recall corporations having their character removed for not serving the public good. It might have happened on occasion, but I am very skeptical that it has ever happened in any larger number. That said, you could throw me a link proving me wrong.

      More to the point though, this is simply a complaint about the 'means' not the 'ends'. The ends are greater wealth, an improved environment, less hunger, and longer lives. If you look at the world from the perspective of the ends, it is clear that whatever dysfunction we have socially, we are clearly advancing technologically quickly enough to compensate. A simple case in point is memory. 25 years ago, only an extremely wealthy person could own a storage device capable of holding half of a gig of memory. Just the other day, I bought a half gig memory stick for 20 dollars. That is only 4 hours of work even at the lowest minimum wage.

      Public spaces were everywhere

      There might very well have been a decline in public spaces. That said, I doubt that there has been a substantial decline. Further, there has been a dramatic increase in public spaces in other forms. Namely, us chatting away on Slashdot represents a massive increase in public interaction. 25 years ago, the thought of having thousands of people debate issues in an organized and coherent manner every single hour at any time of the day was completely unthinkable. Now no one even bats an eyelash over having a conversation with people from all over the world at all hours of the day on all topics.

      People believed in govenment regulation as a net good. The only question was how much is too much?
      Minimum wage, labor law... were rising and being enforced


      This is purely a complaint about how the 'means' have changed. The real issue is the ends. Is your car safer today then it was 25 years ago? Will you keep your eye sight longer? Will you live longer? Can you buy things, that would be completely incomprehensible for someone 25 years ago to be able to buy? Buy most metrics that you can measure how things are today compared to yesterday, things are getting better. Sure, we might complain that if we used other means they could be even better, but the point remains. Things are getting better every day. Not only are things getting better, they are getting better faster and faster. There are things we can do socially to pick up the pace even further, but even with our most incompetent political blundering things are going to continue to steam ahead a faster and faster simply do to technology if nothing else.

    31. Re:Greed... by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 1

      Taxpayer money, collected by the government, spent by the government to put the technology in the public domain.

      The infrastructure was developed by major companies and that goverment you keep referring to.

      We shouldn't be paying for it? Equipment, electricity and people to install and maintain the equipment all cost money. Who would you have doing that work? Should the money come from the taxpayers? Should the Internet be a utility? If so, who will run it? A company like the electric, or a should the government run it?

      Paying "us" licensing fees? What critical technology or protocol did YOU develop?

      --
      There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
    32. Re:Greed... by SilverspurG · · Score: 1
      Paying "us" licensing fees? What critical technology or protocol did YOU develop?
      What critical portion of any technology do the investors develop? None. That's why they're the investors. They supply the money and they reap the profit. That's how VCs work. Do you know anything about investing at all?

      I don't care who laid the actual cable. The moment Cisco and Dlink thought they could start making routers functioning on communication protocols developed with taxpayer money they should have been paying the licensing fees back to the government to ease our tax burden. WTF are we investing in the gov't for anyway? Don't give me any crap about bettering society. We're funding businesses so that we can just fscking give them away for someone else to profit off of? WTF? When's the last time someone just dropped a business technology in your lap and said,"Okay. We've fleeced the taxpayers to bring this to a marketably viable point. You just go play golf and collect the profit."

      I repeat... WTF?
      --
      fast as fast can be. you'll never catch me.
    33. Re:Greed... by Dan+D. · · Score: 1

      Dude, you are *way* to lucid for /.! :)

      You made me think, though... boiling liberals down they really are *always* the ones seeing what's wrong and therefore are the ones who are enacting change. The conservatives are simply worried about the liberals changing things... its like the whole point of calling them liberal or conservative...

      What it made me think of was an analogy of a car... a gas pedal and a brake pedal. Both are required if you want to get where your going safely... only the gas is required if you're not so worried about safety... and only the brake is required if you really don't care if you get there.

      So assuming liberals are the gas and conservatives are the brake ... I hope whoever is steering isn't drunk.

      --
      People who quote themselves bug the crap out of me -- Me.
    34. Re:Greed... by jbolden · · Score: 1

      I was responding to your point regarding conservatives vs. liberals not the point about another "dark ages". I don't disagree that a lot of the problems regarding bad distribution are being covered up by gains in productivity. As for technology I think it depends on your time frame. Incompetent political blundering has killed technology driven economies before there is no reason it can't again. The greeks had the steam engine why other than bad political structures did the industrial revolution not happen in the 2nd century?

    35. Re:Greed... by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 1

      Seeing as I am getting about a 15% return on my investments, I would say yes I know about investing.

      What part of public domain don't you understand? Or don't you believe in such things? That is why "we investing in the gov't for anyway". YOU can start a company making routers and switches. Anyone can because the protocols are PUBLIC DOMAIN.

      --
      There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
    36. Re:Greed... by sjames · · Score: 1

      In some sense, we have experianced a dark ages in our lives, and it is struggling to keep the new renesance from happening. A dark age doesn't necessarily mean that no innovation happens or that new thought doesn't occur, it just means that the majority of people are cut off from participation except as a sort of begger who takes whatever 'they' choose to give him.

      The Dark Ages were not bereft of thought or innovation, it's just that only the Church and aristocracy could meangfully participate or benefit from it.

      Keep in mind that the 'darkness' of an age is a reletive thing. We have seen a rich culture progressively locked up into various *AA organizations. It is increasingly difficult to make a meaningful contribution to culture drawing (as most such contributions always have) from the existing culture without increadibly complex sets of transactions to obtain rights to use that existing culture. While modern communications has in some ways tempered the effects, the fact is that given the state of the world in 1910 and knowledge of today's technology, one would have expected a great deal MORE free creative expression today than we actually have. A future era that frees us of the legal encumberances even with no improvement to technology will surely view this era as a dark age.

      On the subject of innovation, we're probably not quite dark, but if the IP fanatics out there continue to have their way with patents, we will be. The more valuable to society the "little guy"'s invention is, the more likely it is to be usurped by a large corporation using a minefield of incomprehensable patents.

      The multinationals are attempting to be the new aristocracy. They have all of the needed traits. They have most of the wealth, they incestuously couple so that their chains of ownership are just a big tangled fuzzball, they fight with each other, but otherwise are largely immune to social consequences of their ill behaviour, and most of the peasants are somehow bound in service to them in order to live. The old 'ordained by God' line doesn't fly anymore so they commit their evil in the name of "the stockholders"

      Technology SHOULD have been sufficient by now to allow us to get by with a 10 hour (or so) workweek, but due to political and societal shortcomings, we can't.

      News is consolidated into a few faceless entities beholden to corporate masters rather than serving their audience first.

      The grass roots are TRYING to stop the trends and break us out into a new rennesance, but the aristocracy are fighting back hard to not only keep us in the dark, but to deepen it.

      Note that the term "Dark Ages" was coined after the fact. The people who lived in it were mostly unaware. Compared to how things could be, this certainly is a dark age, and will probably be seen as one in the bfuture. It's not that things got worse overall (though they have by some measures, remember when 1 person's income was sufficient to have a house and 2 cars?) it's just that they haven't gotten as much better as we know how to make them. The difference is largely pocketed by the upper 5% or so.

      Before you oject that multinationals are public companies, try a little experiment. You and your friends select a company you consider 'evil'. Buy as much of it's stock as you can afford and then try ordering it to stop it's evil practices. Let us know how that goes.

    37. Re:Greed... by Shihar · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      A guy in 2005 has so much more buying power then a guy in 1970 that you can't even put the two on the same scale. Buy a 100 Mhz computer today. What would it cost you? Hell, you could probably get it for free at a swap shop at a dump or for $20 at techie pawn shop. Okay, now buy one in 1970. Did they even have super computers that fast? If they did, I can promise you that it would cost you will into the tens of millions. Just imagine that. Something we consider junk today would have been worth millions in the 1970's. People forget that technology does wonders to buying power. A guy in the 1970's would kill to have the buying power we have today.

      As far as your point about debt, I almost completely agree. I think we are spending stupidly. It burns every fiber of my being that "conservatives" are hemorrhaging money on such a scale that would leave a Stalinist looking shocked and mortified. The conservatives should be lynching their own party for such recklessness. Every time I meet a self proclaimed fiscal conservative who voices support with the current government, I desperately want to smack him up side the head then shake him until he is able to see reality again.

    38. Re:Greed... by Malor · · Score: 1

      You're using a single data point to try to extrapolate a whole world view. Yes, computers have advanced enormously, more than practically any other technology ever has. But in most other areas, that's not really true. Yes, cars are safer and better now than they were in the 1970s, but you could get a basic car for, what, $2500 back then? When I was in high school in the early 80s, you could get a very nice car for about $8000. I haven't been shopping at the cheap end for awhile, but I think you'd have real trouble buying much under $20K these days. Yes, the cars are better and last longer... but they are also A LOT more expensive. And most people take out loans to buy them. Cars were often just paid for in the 1970s, and those that were bought on credit were very rarely on more than a 3-year loan. I've heard of seven-year loans on some modern cars.

      Look at food.... think about how much a good steak costs these days. Look at energy. Look at housing costs. The basic necessities of life consume a much larger fraction of our income than they once did. The technological luxuries are enormously cheaper, but many of the necessities have gotten much more expensive, and wages really haven't gone up that much.

  7. Re:Getting rid of the trash. by boog3r · · Score: 2, Funny

    The other option to clean up the internet is teaching people the correct use of THEIR, THERE and THEY'RE.

    Not to mention TWO, TOO and TO.

    Don't forget about YOU'RE, YOUR and YORE.

    Oops, almost forgot ITS and IT'S.

    --
    signatures are for fools with hands
  8. Re:Getting rid of the trash. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Don't forget about boog3r and booger.

  9. MOD PARENT UP by thegameiam · · Score: 1

    and maybe we can keep the net free...

    --
    Need Geek Rock? Try The Franchise!
    1. Re:MOD PARENT UP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you are not a moderator, please do not moderate. Instead, feel free to meta-moderate.

  10. Re:Getting rid of the trash. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Don't forget the neverending LOSE/LOOSE problem, a personal crusade of mine.

  11. this is just silly by kaan · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I know all kinds of smart people try really hard to predict things like this, and they give all sorts of explanations that "support" their position. But here is why the Internet won't go away: it is useful, and people like it.

    If you look throughout history, in all cultures, if people find something to be useful, no amount of government or corporate intervention or regulation will dissuade those people from doing what they want. Despite most citizens not giving a shit about voting in government elections, very few people will stand by and allow a government or corporation to take away something they want. It just does not happen. This happens all over the world, in all cultures, and when this stand-off becomes a big enough event, it makes the news as a "revolution".

    So no, the internet isn't going to be flushed down the tubes by ISPs or whatever, because consumers will not allow it.

    1. Re:this is just silly by dpreston · · Score: 1

      really? well, that's good, because i was afraid things like this: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/artic le/2005/11/16/AR2005111601047.html?nav=rss_email/c omponents would happen. you're right, people would never let a freedom-bearing principle be taken away from us...the votes aren't what matters, we like it, and they can't take it! ...oops...

    2. Re:this is just silly by mrchaotica · · Score: 2, Insightful
      So no, the internet isn't going to be flushed down the tubes by ISPs or whatever, because consumers will not allow it.
      You know, statements like this illustrate exactly why this will happen. The problem is the "consumer" attitude people have these days. Newsflash: "consumers" are cattle. Make no mistake: the "consumers" will not only allow this, they'll let themselves be deluded into thinking they like it. Witness the people even here on Slashdot who talk about how the DRM on iTunes is "okay because it's not as bad as that other DRM" when they should be loudly protesting against any DRM!

      If we want to get through to the people, one thing we need to do is banish "consumer" from the public vocabulary. I, for one, am not a "consumer!" No, I am a customer, and more importantly, a citizen! I WILL NOT BE FUCKED WITH!

      Now, who's with me?
      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    3. Re:this is just silly by RovingSlug · · Score: 1
      Newsflash: "consumers" are cattle. Make no mistake: the "consumers" will not only allow this, they'll let themselves be deluded into thinking they like it. ... I, for one, am not a "consumer!" No, I am a customer, and more importantly, a citizen! I WILL NOT BE FUCKED WITH!

      Really? Aside from pounding your fist, shouting, and cursing on Slashdot, what have you actually done about it? Angry cattle are still cattle.

    4. Re:this is just silly by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      I've been boycotting Sony, Microsoft, and companies affiliated with the RIAA. I've also been emailing my Senators and Representatives, and will be joining the EFF and ACLU once I get some cash (I'm a poor college student). Finally, I try to educate everyone I can about this kind of thing (on and off Slashdot). How's about that, Mr. holier-than-thou?

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    5. Re:this is just silly by mcrbids · · Score: 1

      If we want to get through to the people, one thing we need to do is banish "consumer" from the public vocabulary. I, for one, am not a "consumer!" No, I am a customer, and more importantly, a citizen! I WILL NOT BE FUCKED WITH!

      Big words. Too bad they don't mean anything.

      For starters, if they did, you wouldn't feel the need to pepper your statements with profanity.

      Then, there's your tacit request for support, ("Now, who's with me") and the utter lack of any specificity. If they don't treat you as a "customer", what are you going to do, except maybe yell profanity?

      If you really want to do something, then I suggest you do so. Start an organization, keep a membership, ask for dues, put up a website, print up some business cards, the whole shebang.

      Doing so would really help you grow, help you become a bigger person, and help you see your true role in society. (hint: It's bigger than you think) But, if you don't do the above, if instead you sit in your mother's basement typing profanity, you'll get nowhere.

      PS: If your mother pays the bill, you are a consumer, she is the customer.

      --
      I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
    6. Re:this is just silly by shmlco · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Do I wish there was no DRM? Certainly. I also wish there was no NEED for DRM. Unfortunately, those two viewpoints are not easily reconciled.

      --
      Any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.
    7. Re:this is just silly by Bob9113 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      if people find something to be useful, no amount of government or corporate intervention or regulation will dissuade those people from doing what they want.

      Read some history books. Apartheid, Slavery, The War of The Northern Aggression (and its aftermath), Native Americans, The Strikebreakers (the early 1900s ones), The East India Trading Company, The Aborigines. Heck, I don't even know much history and I can rattle off that list of corporate backed and long-lived oppression. Those things lasted decades, centuries. Heck, Native Americans and The Aborigines are still unresolved and festering issues of connected money co-opting government to screw those with less influence. The repurcussions from every one of those issues still rumble deeply through the global economy. This great self-righting machine we all believe in may work in the extremely long run, from a macro perspective, but massive catastrophic periods of regression are almost as common as periods of advancement.

      I'd even say that the "almost" in that last sentence may only be there because we seem to be in the midst of an up trend at the moment. If a few untimely terrorist nukes take out any 2 or 3 of LA, NYC, Paris, Berlin, London, and Tokyo, we would be on the fast track to a new dark age - not just from the ensuing panic, but from the carte blanche we would give the military industrial complex. Halliburton has wet dreams about it.

      All that is not to say there is no hope, but that freedom isn't free. Speaking from the US perspective, it is our duty to defend our nation against all aggressors, foreign and domestic. At the moment there are domestic aggressors that are, IMO, more dangerous to our economy and technological advancement than the foreign aggressors with whom we are openly engaged. If we act now, it doesn't have to reach the level where a revolution is necessary. If we just believe it will all come out OK and do nothing, a revolution will happen, and nobody wants that.

      And it's not that far off. The sabre rattling is deafening; the Internet governance battle, severe rifts in NATO, US pundits calling for the UN to be dismantled, US refusal to join the Hague. If we continue to flip the world the bird, they are going to gang up on us. Now look here at home; talk of "the nuclear option" in congress, the no-quarter battle over ID, laws blatantly purchased by corporations, and equally blatantly ignored by huge swaths of the populace. If the world gangs up on us, a big chunk of "us" is going to side with "them."

    8. Re:this is just silly by snafu109 · · Score: 1
      because consumers will not allow it

      That's exactly what we all are now. "Consumers" not "people".

    9. Re:this is just silly by Burz · · Score: 1
      If we want to get through to the people, one thing we need to do is banish "consumer" from the public vocabulary. I, for one, am not a "consumer!" No, I am a customer, and more importantly, a citizen! I WILL NOT BE FUCKED WITH!

      Now, who's with me?

      Oooooo.....

      Can I have your baby? :-)
    10. Re:this is just silly by ClamIAm · · Score: 1

      I don't think you understand the reality of the threat. Currently, carriers have to let data through to wherever it is going (this is a simplification, but it's mostly accurate). If the carrier corporations and content cartels get their way in Congress, they won't have to anymore. When SBC sees your packets headed for Google, they can reroute them to SBCsearch.com unless you pay a fee. If they so choose, they can block whatever they want completely (and don't think they'll be all benevolent and nice). This would also give each carrier a large monopoly, as many people only have access to one ISP. The internet would then basically become like TV, where you can pick a few things to look at, but you can't publish your own content (without either paying the carriers or selling your soul to them) and you're stuck subsidizing whatever your carrier decides to support, whether you use it or not (think cable TV packages). Since this is mostly what "consumers" use the internet for anyway, they won't care. It'll be the techies and entrepeneurs with grand visions that get quashed, unable to get past the gatekeepers.

    11. Re:this is just silly by davecb · · Score: 1
      shmlco writes:Do I wish there was no DRM? Certainly. I also wish there was no NEED for DRM. Unfortunately, those two viewpoints are not easily reconciled.

      Let's look at this as a logic problem:

      p1) copying copyrighted material costs copyright holders sales
      p2) massive copying causes massive costs
      c1) mass copying is bad

      p3) radio makes many copies
      p4) radio copying encourages sales
      c2) radio copying is not bad

      p5) commercial mass copiers make many copies
      p6) they do not encourage sales
      c3) commercial mass copiers are bad

      p7) masses of people make a few copies each
      p8) some of these encourage sales
      c4) some personal copying is good
      c5) some personal copying is bad

      p9) DRM prevents personal copying
      c6) some DRM is good
      c7) some DRM is bad (for the vendor, remember)

      p10) DRM does not prevent mass copying
      c8) DRM is bad (again, for the vendor)

      from c6-9, vendors should improve DRM
      to prevent non-personal copying
      Of course,in this case, DRM is being used in the broadest possible sense, and includes police raiding the pressing plants in Shanghai...

      --dave

      --
      davecb@spamcop.net
    12. Re:this is just silly by Paul+Bristow · · Score: 1

      I was about to say this exact same thing, so I am absolutely with you.

      I want a global campaign "I am not a consumer".

      --
      - Paul
    13. Re:this is just silly by Mac+Degger · · Score: 1

      "it is useful, and people like it."

      So are cheap generic brandless drugs against HIV and many other sickness'...and they're gone now in India and pretty mnuch the rest of the world, thanks to the US interfereing in sovereign nation's IP/patent laws.

      "So no, the internet isn't going to be flushed down the tubes by ISPs or whatever, because consumers will not allow it."

      Yeah, 'cause if they'll allow it to happen to something which literally saves lives, they won't let it happen to a porn-distribution network.

      Seriously, have you not heard of The Great Firewall of China? Supplied by US tech? Tech which now exists, and can be easily implemented anywhere in the world? Like it already is in many middle-eastern nations? And considering the insane FCC stance, and the FBI's recent retasking that puts porn on a higher priority than terrorism (google this one, please), do you really not think that mass-cencorship of the internet worldwide isn't at least a possibility? And is actually a fact for China, the Emirates etc etc?

      --
      -- Waht? Tehr's a preveiw buottn?
    14. Re:this is just silly by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 1

      The magazine you're thinking like is "Adbusters". Write to them.

  12. Re:Getting rid of the trash. by mrchaotica · · Score: 2, Interesting

    What are you, an idiot?

    First of all, it's impossible to force everyone to do anything. Second, it's impossible to massively delete every single site on the Internet. Third, even if you got every "web-host" to assist you, you still wouldn't get half the sites because they're hosted directly on the owner's machine. Fourth, web sites are not the Internet. There's IRC, Usenet, email, ftp, and about a million other protocols -- there's even still gopher!

    Finally, and most importantly, your entire idea is wrong. It's exactly the opposite of what the Internet is supposed to be, which is unmonitored and Free.

    --

    "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

  13. Thank You! by Arctic+Fox · · Score: 1
    I wasn't going to read the essay anyway before posting, but I appreciate you telling me that it's too long to read.

    Slashdot: "Commenting now with 50% less guilt!"

  14. Searls overstates his case by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    Check out Tim Lee's lengthy response. He argues (and I suspect most Slashdotters will agree) that, "The Internet is a massive, chaotic, fiercely competitive ecosystem. No one carrier owns more than a tiny fraction of its capacity. No one company controls more than a tiny fraction of its content. In short, no one company is ever going to control the Internet." The complete rebuttal is available at http://www.techliberation.com/archives/027010.php

    1. Re:Searls overstates his case by NoMoreNicksLeft · · Score: 1

      Thank God.

      Everyone knows that fiercely competitive ecosystems never get slaughtered down to the last species. The internet will survive!

    2. Re:Searls overstates his case by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      --> "In short, no one company is ever going to control the Internet"

      Unless I'm mistaken, ICANN is a company (corporation technically) even though it is non-profit
      "those who control the DNS control the Internet"

    3. Re:Searls overstates his case by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      I want to visit that link but its blocked by Websense as an "advocacy website", how is it advocacy if its the creator of the web?...

    4. Re:Searls overstates his case by bythescruff · · Score: 1

      I agree. TFA seems to be a bit USA-centric; the rest of the world is unlikely to be catastrophically affected by the consolidation of Bells within the USA. Not that I think that that consolidation is a good thing, mind you.

      --
      Chuck Norris: Socialism == a thousand years of darkness.
    5. Re:Searls overstates his case by ClamIAm · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Response-response, by Richard Tallent. Choice quote:

      Once, we had DSL choice here in Southeast Texas. There were at least three companies with DSLAMs (DSL modems) around Beaumont. Then SBC went crying to the FCC, paid off both major parties, and got permission to block anyone else from using their facilities and to remove wholesale prices that local ISPs used to resell DSL services. So now, DSL service runs only about twice as fast as ISDN for about the same price as the RoadRunner service (avg. 6Mbps), and is nowhere near as stable.

      Damn, that's a fierce ecosystem we have goin' here. The problem is that we have predators who won't die when they kill all the prey. They have the ability to buy laws, which creates an ecosystem of unnatural selection.

    6. Re:Searls overstates his case by swissfondue · · Score: 1

      and a rebuttal of the rebuttal can be found here: Tallent.

      --
      Rubies and Pearls are not what you think.
    7. Re:Searls overstates his case by truthsearch · · Score: 1

      The American economy is a massive, chaotic, fiercely competitive ecosystem. No one company owns more than a tiny fraction of its capacity. No one company controls more than a tiny fraction of its products. In short, no one company is ever going to control the American economy.

      Yet individual companies do gain huge control over parts of the economy. As bigger and bigger companies gain more and more content and attention on the internet we will see issues of control. Any time money is involved you will find battles over freedom and control.

    8. Re:Searls overstates his case by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 1

      No one company can ever control the internet, but unlike free-market ideologues corporations tend to have enough of a sense of cooperation to band together into an oligopoly and thereby control enough of the internet pipes for their collective needs.

      Welcome to America, where Communism is Corporate.

  15. Nope, I wouldn't argue any of those numbers ARE... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    widespread.

    2.2M represents less than 1% of the population, and the reality is it is a small percentage of repeat offenders.
    You want widespread?

    Copyright violation is being estimated by the media industries to be occuring on the rate of millions of offenses per day. Millions of users are logged onto P2P networks primarily for copyright infringement purposes (I said primarily, not exclusively).

    Minor excess speeding tickets hit a large percentage of the population (upwards of 40% depending on jurisdiction and technologies being applied). That will definitely go up in the UK if/when they roll out those beautiful new speed cams.

    Drug crimes hit a large percentage of the population. Sure, lots of people are in jail for violent crimes. But 1 person in 30 in the USA are in jail are because of drug crimes, the majority of those for simple possession. Estimates range, but the low estimates for teenage illicit drug use (one-time or more) is at around 25%.

    Those are widespread numbers. Violent crimes (I'm sorry 12,000 murders is not a lot in a population of 280 million) are not. You just hear about the violence a lot whenever you listen to Fox News or whenever the police or government are trying to take your rights away. Even with the drug violence, long term violent crime rates continue to decline.

  16. Re:Getting rid of the trash. by Frodo+Crockett · · Score: 1

    I usually link people to this quick guide to apostrophe use.

    --
    "The newly born animals are then whisked off for a quick run through a giant baking oven." --heard on Food Network
  17. Slashdotted Already by fastdecade · · Score: 1

    Can someone please post it.

  18. You mean the **AA? by tadauphoenix · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Only commenting on the article post... it's the "bad guys" that made the internet what it is, including raising the bar in bandwidth requirements and security. Balance without "bad guys" in any environment is impossible. If it weren't for RIAA smashing napster, we probably wouldn't have torrents (at least not yet). Balance.

  19. tfa, less some formatting by sonictheboom · · Score: 0, Redundant

    Saving the Net: How to Keep the Carriers from Flushing the Net Down the Tubes
    By Doc Searls on Wed, 2005-11-16 02:00. Industry News
    We're hearing tales of two scenarios--one pessimistic, one optimistic--for the future of the Net. If the paranoids are right, the Net's toast. If they're not, it will be because we fought to save it, perhaps in a new way we haven't talked about before. Davids, meet your Goliaths.
    -
    This is a long essay. There is, however, no limit to how long I could have made it. The subjects covered here are no less enormous than the Net and its future. Even optimists agree that the Net's future as a free and open environment for business and culture is facing many threats. We can't begin to cover them all or cover all the ways we can fight them. I believe, however, that there is one sure way to fight all of these threats at once, and without doing it the bad guys will win. That's what this essay is about.

    Here's a brief outline of the article. If you want to go straight to the solution, skip to the third section:

    Scenario I: The Carriers Win

    Scenario II: The Public Workaround

    Scenario III: Fight with Words and Not Just Deeds

    -

    Scenario I: The Carriers Win

    Be afraid. Be very afraid. --Kevin Werbach.

    Are you ready to see the Net privatized from the bottom to the top? Are you ready to see the Net's free and open marketplace sucked into a pit of pipes built and fitted by the phone and cable companies and run according to rules lobbied by the carrier and content industries?

    Do you believe a free and open market should be "Your choice of walled garden" or "Your choice of silo"? That's what the big carrier and content companies believe. That's why they're getting ready to fence off the frontiers.

    And we're not stopping it.

    With the purchase and re-animation of AT&T's remains, the collection of former Baby Bells called SBC will become the largest communications company in the US--the new Ma Bell. Verizon, comprised of the old GTE plus MCI and the Baby Bells SBC didn't grab, is the new Pa Bell. That's one side of the battlefield, called The Regulatory Environment. Across the battlefield from Ma and Pa Bell are the cable and entertainment giants: Comcast, Cox, TimeWarner and so on. Covering the battle are the business and tech media, which love a good fight.

    The problem is that all of these battling companies--plus the regulators--hate the Net.

    Maybe hate is too strong of a word. The thing is, they're hostile to it, because they don't get it. Worse, they only get it in one very literal way. See, to the carriers and their regulators, the Net isn't a world, a frontier, a marketplace or a commons. To them, the Net is a collection of pipes. Their goal is to beat the other pipe-owners. To do that, they want to sell access and charge for traffic.

    There's nothing wrong with being in the bandwidth business, of course. But some of these big boys want to go farther with it. They don't see themselves as a public utility selling a pure base-level service, such as water or electricity (which is what they are, by the way, in respect to the Net). They see themselves as a source of many additional value-adds, inside the pipes. They see opportunities to sell solutions to industries that rely on the Net--especially their natural partner, the content industry.

    They see a problem with freeloaders. On the tall end of the power curve, those 'loaders are AOL, Google, Microsoft, Yahoo and other large sources of the container cargo we call "content". Out on the long tail, the freeloaders are you and me. The big 'loaders have been getting a free ride for too long and are going to need to pay. The Information Highway isn't the freaking interstate. It's a system of private roads that needs to start charging tolls. As for the small 'loaders, it hardly matters that they're a boundless source of invention, innovation, vitality and new business. To the carriers, we're all still just "consumers". And we always will be.

    "P

  20. TFA by rangefinder · · Score: 1, Redundant

    Saving the Net: How to Keep the Carriers from Flushing the Net Down the Tubes
    By Doc Searls on Wed, 2005-11-16 02:00. Industry News
    We're hearing tales of two scenarios--one pessimistic, one optimistic--for the future of the Net. If the paranoids are right, the Net's toast. If they're not, it will be because we fought to save it, perhaps in a new way we haven't talked about before. Davids, meet your Goliaths.

    This is a long essay. There is, however, no limit to how long I could have made it. The subjects covered here are no less enormous than the Net and its future. Even optimists agree that the Net's future as a free and open environment for business and culture is facing many threats. We can't begin to cover them all or cover all the ways we can fight them. I believe, however, that there is one sure way to fight all of these threats at once, and without doing it the bad guys will win. That's what this essay is about.

    Here's a brief outline of the article. If you want to go straight to the solution, skip to the third section:

    *

    Scenario I: The Carriers Win
    *

    Scenario II: The Public Workaround
    *

    Scenario III: Fight with Words and Not Just Deeds

    Scenario I: The Carriers Win

    Be afraid. Be very afraid. --Kevin Werbach.

    Are you ready to see the Net privatized from the bottom to the top? Are you ready to see the Net's free and open marketplace sucked into a pit of pipes built and fitted by the phone and cable companies and run according to rules lobbied by the carrier and content industries?

    Do you believe a free and open market should be "Your choice of walled garden" or "Your choice of silo"? That's what the big carrier and content companies believe. That's why they're getting ready to fence off the frontiers.

    And we're not stopping it.

    With the purchase and re-animation of AT&T's remains, the collection of former Baby Bells called SBC will become the largest communications company in the US--the new Ma Bell. Verizon, comprised of the old GTE plus MCI and the Baby Bells SBC didn't grab, is the new Pa Bell. That's one side of the battlefield, called The Regulatory Environment. Across the battlefield from Ma and Pa Bell are the cable and entertainment giants: Comcast, Cox, TimeWarner and so on. Covering the battle are the business and tech media, which love a good fight.

    The problem is that all of these battling companies--plus the regulators--hate the Net.

    Maybe hate is too strong of a word. The thing is, they're hostile to it, because they don't get it. Worse, they only get it in one very literal way. See, to the carriers and their regulators, the Net isn't a world, a frontier, a marketplace or a commons. To them, the Net is a collection of pipes. Their goal is to beat the other pipe-owners. To do that, they want to sell access and charge for traffic.

    There's nothing wrong with being in the bandwidth business, of course. But some of these big boys want to go farther with it. They don't see themselves as a public utility selling a pure base-level service, such as water or electricity (which is what they are, by the way, in respect to the Net). They see themselves as a source of many additional value-adds, inside the pipes. They see opportunities to sell solutions to industries that rely on the Net--especially their natural partner, the content industry.

    They see a problem with freeloaders. On the tall end of the power curve, those 'loaders are AOL, Google, Microsoft, Yahoo and other large sources of the container cargo we call "content". Out on the long tail, the freeloaders are you and me. The big 'loaders have been getting a free ride for too long and are going to need to pay. The Information Highway isn't the freaking interstate. It's a system of private roads that needs to start char

  21. Umm, not sure what 'net you are on by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 2

    But that doesn't seem to be happening on the Internet I use. Companies have a bigger presence than every and there is mroe and more commercial Internet, but I find that in no way interferes with any of the rest of it since you just access what you want. I haven't had anyone try to stop me from hosting free sites on the topics I want, I haven't had webservice get scarce, on the contrary, the barrier for entry seems to be lower than ever.

    So what's the dark age you are talking about? What is destroying the net? The only thing I've seen receantly is all that stupidity about DNS which was just politicians playing games, nothing was ever going to come of that.

    1. Re:Umm, not sure what 'net you are on by cakesy · · Score: 1

      Just because you can do these things now, doesn't mean that you will not be able to do them in the future. The whole point of the article, is that the web is being taken over by companies, and they have no reason to let you keep using the net for whatever you want. It will become like television, where you can basically watch stuff or buy stuff.

      Some people stick there heads in the sands until it is too late. Other like to see trends, try to predict where things are going, and maybe stop bad things from happening. You are the former.

    2. Re:Umm, not sure what 'net you are on by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just because you can do these things now, doesn't mean that you WON'T NOT be able to do them in the future.

      Just because you can do these things now, doesn't mean that you WILL be able to do them in the future.

      Just because you can do these things now, doesn't mean that you will not be able to do them in the future.

  22. City, Where Are You? by LionKimbro · · Score: 2, Interesting

    There's a book about this.

    It's called City Come a Walkin. It was published in 1980. William Gibson had some nice things to say about it.

    The problem, in the book, is the problem we're seeing here. Some rich club mob wants to take over the Internet. They want to control the communications system, and they want to be the gatekeepers of what all will go over the wires. And they're using it to leech off of, and eventually control, society.

    Cities have a way of becoming self-aware. In the book, we meet San Fransisco: City. And we meet Sacramento, briefly. (She looks like a prostitute, apparently.) Chicago's also got a soul- in a living man. New York. Phoenix. The major cities- They start to take on a life of their own.

    And they fight as hard as they can against the network controllers. But... "When the city comes a walkin' we'll all be obsolete."

    I don't want to spoil it. :) Go read it yourself.

    1. Re:City, Where Are You? by shalmaneser1 · · Score: 1

      great book! too few people have read it but its excellent early cyber-punk.

  23. Demonizing CEO Whiteacre? by crucini · · Score: 4, Interesting
    This article is long; I read up to the quote from Edward Whiteacre, CEO of SBC. Whiteacre said obvious and sensible things:
    1. Google, Yahoo, etc. have to pay for transport. That money goes to the pipe owners.
    2. If a cable TV company can offer phone services without paying the city a franchise fee, AT&T should be able to offer TV service without paying the city a franchise fee.

    Somehow, Searls extracted some hideous meaning from these comments. He wants to ask Whiteacre a bunch of deep questions about the Net and freedom. I don't think Whiteacre could answer any of them; nor should he.
    1. Re:Demonizing CEO Whiteacre? by eric76 · · Score: 4, Insightful
      This article is long; I read up to the quote from Edward Whiteacre, CEO of SBC. Whiteacre said obvious and sensible things:

      We'll see about that.

      Google, Yahoo, etc. have to pay for transport. That money goes to the pipe owners.

      They pay for transport to their local provider. That it isn't SBC does not matter.

      What SBC seems to want to do is to require everyone to be their customer in order to carry their traffic on SBC's network.

      Look at it as if it were telephone traffic. In that case, it is as if they would not complete any telephone calls unless the calling party and the called party were both customers of theirs.

      Or, more accurately, they want to charge long distance tolls. I guess for your $30 per month, you will be able to connect to your local town without paying additional fees. If you want to connect to the next town, you're gong to have to pay more.

      If a cable TV company can offer phone services without paying the city a franchise fee, AT&T should be able to offer TV service without paying the city a franchise fee.

      I never understood the rationale for franchise fees other than just another way to stick it to the public.

    2. Re:Demonizing CEO Whiteacre? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1. Google, Yahoo!, M$FT, et al. have enormous bandwidth bills. The obvious implication Mr. Whiteacre is making is that some of the data that goes from these content providers goes over his network. He owns "the last mile" to millions of the consumers of that content. He would very much like all those dot-commies to pay him for access to his consumers. You see, this fractures the 'net. Nevermind that things work fine today, that everyone is paying their bills, that reciprocal routing agreements make the Internet something you get onto rather than something you go through.

      2. The government decided that TV broadcasting would require a franchise fee. Cable companies pay this fee. There is no franchise fee for providing phone service. You see, they're different freaking services. His argument is circular.

      Your post has highlighted Doc's major point. Until we start talking about these issues in ways that make sense to the average Joe, a liberated and egalitarian Internet is doomed.

    3. Re:Demonizing CEO Whiteacre? by imroy · · Score: 1
      What SBC seems to want to do is to require everyone to be their customer in order to carry their traffic on SBC's network.
      Look at it as if it were telephone traffic. In that case, it is as if they would not complete any telephone calls unless the calling party and the called party were both customers of theirs.

      Perhaps a better analogy is a road or highway. Imagine SBC owning a stretch of highway. Imagine they start tracking vehicles, so they can invoice couriers and other commercial users for a 'cut' of their profits. Charging people for the use of a medium is perfectly fine. What the SBC CEO seems to want to do is tax commercial users a part of their profit simply because their packets happen to travel across his network. That's not fine. It's dumb. And probably not enforcable to any great extent.

    4. Re:Demonizing CEO Whiteacre? by miltonw · · Score: 1

      No, Whiteacre's arguments are not framed correctly. We, the ISP's customers already pay for access. That service is already fully paid for. The question to Whiteacre, or any ISP is: What ISP services, then, are being provided for free?

      The answer, of course, is none. The ISPs provide a service, get paid for it and are making a nice profit.

      If they charge Yahoo, Google, etc. they are getting paid twice for the same service. Right now, no one is getting "cheated", especially not the ISPs. If the ISPs can pull this off, it is their customers (who ultimately will pay for all charges, either directly or indirectly) who get the shaft.

    5. Re:Demonizing CEO Whiteacre? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Think about it. What is the cost of charging Google and Yahoo? It is the use of packet tracking code. When this is in place, then why not use it for more companies and applications? What is the cut off size for a company that has to pay? Anything that is successful? Does this mean slashdot, wikipedia, craigslist....

    6. Re:Demonizing CEO Whiteacre? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If they charge Yahoo, Google, etc. they are getting paid twice for the same service

      If the ISP get paid by Yahoo, Google etc then they can offer you free net access.

      When you accept such an arrangement you will lose your freedom! If you don't pay for it you don't own it..... you are another sucker in the hands of corporations, just like freeloaders of TV, Radio etc. What information you get through a free media will be controlled by advertisers who pay for it! But the funny part is they get the money to pay for the ads by selling you "products" at double the price than cost of production!!! You end up ultimate sucker......

      In fact Google may be trying to do this with FREE Wi-Fi service......

  24. Re:George Bush says by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And know what? It's actually true. There's absolutely no reason that there has to be only one internet and actually you'ld know there are more than one if you had a clue. Or perhaps you have not even the tinyest sliver of knowledge about what the definition of an internet is (no surprise) and instead only rely on a shallow impression of the use of Internet as a noun.

  25. The ethics of numbers. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Well, before we do that, let's look a little deeper. Copyright used to last only 14 years. Now it is 70ish years beyond the death of the creator. It has been extended and expanded well beyond it's useful function, and is a horrid aberration of its original intention."

    Partially true. However we must keep in mind that laws need to change with circumstances. One people overall live longer than they did when copyright was first enacted. Second society overall has grown beyound what the copyright founders could ever imagine. Also it takes far more in resources to bring some IP to fruitation compared to what it use to take when the founders created copyright. I'm not certain why people have no problem with technology growing and changing, but expect the law to be frozen in one moment of time.

    "Murder today only applies to the willful killing of a human being. Should this law be extended the way copyright law has been extended ... then what becomes a murder now? What if all manslaughters were murders? How about hitting a dog on the road? Stepping on bugs?"

    An apples to oranges comparison. Copyright extension per your previous complaint is an extension in time. While the other is an extension of circumstance. Anyway society even back in roman times already extended the willful killing of others to the state.e.g. war, and executions. And let's not mention a citizen protecting others, or self-defense.

    "If ALL those things were now considered to be murders, then you would definately have a murder rate comparable to the rate at which copyright infringement occurs."

    Well as it stands, everybody is guessing. Much as we guess the propagation of Linux.

    "While I will agree that this argument initially sounds ludicrous ... remind yourself again how badly manipulated the copyright law is today. Note also for the record that Congress is not done with their rewriting of copyright law."

    Note well those absentee landlords, better known as citizens.

    Anyway the OP's argument is basically the majority is no more right by virtue of being the majority, than the minority is wrong because it's the minority. In other words you all are going to have to use something other than numbers to justify your ethics.

    1. Re:The ethics of numbers. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Partially true. However we must keep in mind that laws need to change with circumstances. One people overall live longer than they did when copyright was first enacted. Second society overall has grown beyound what the copyright founders could ever imagine. Also it takes far more in resources to bring some IP to fruitation compared to what it use to take when the founders created copyright. I'm not certain why people have no problem with technology growing and changing, but expect the law to be frozen in one moment of time."

      No. Prices have gone down. It's easier NOW than THEN to create IP because the technology is more available.

    2. Re:The ethics of numbers. by khallow · · Score: 1
      Partially true. However we must keep in mind that laws need to change with circumstances. One people overall live longer than they did when copyright was first enacted. Second society overall has grown beyound what the copyright founders could ever imagine. Also it takes far more in resources to bring some IP to fruitation compared to what it use to take when the founders created copyright. I'm not certain why people have no problem with technology growing and changing, but expect the law to be frozen in one moment of time.

      So this seems to be more an argument to eliminate the founder's lifespan from the equation and to shorten the overall duration of copyright law. Second, as another poster remarked, given the increased ease with which copyright is created and exploited, we should be reducing the duration of copyright not increasing its duration. I think setting it to say 50 years after the creation of the work is reasonable with possible shortening in the future as technology continues to enable the creation of copyrighted material.

  26. I Have ADD by bluethundr · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Someone please read this for me and tell me what it means.

    --
    Quod scripsi, scripsi.
    1. Re:I Have ADD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      why in the name of all things holy is this modded insightful?

    2. Re:I Have ADD by bluethundr · · Score: 1

      why in the name of all things holy is this modded insightful?

      You've got got me! I'd intended it as deadpan humour! Then that sort of humor doesn't translate that well to the web.

      --
      Quod scripsi, scripsi.
  27. Grassroot MANs Are the Solution by WiseWeasel · · Score: 1

    The obvious final outcome here is that people are going to start forming grassroots wireless networks on a metropolitan area level, and interconnecting these networks through encrypted tunnels through standard ISPs. It'll start by people getting access points to access metropolitan area services at high bandwidth, something like Mesh would be used to provide the network infrastructure, and eventually, this will end up as an ad-hoc wireless internet. Obviously, the software is going to have to evolve to be very scalable and have acceptable performance, but what we will be left with is a truly free network by construction (decentralization), even if we can't include everyone in the middle of nowhere. People will first use it for gaming and sharing media, but businesses will jump at the opportunity to get access to a targeted metropolitan network, and TV affiliates might find it an attractive method of reaching local viewers. Even if the connections outside the MAN are poor, most cities and towns would surely find good uses for high speed local networks. As these networks grow, they will become more and more interconnected, and hopefully replace the centralized internet we have today for all but the longest hops. The killer (commercial) application for this is obviously going to be video and local services. To get TV affiliates interested, though, there would need to be a proven audience, and p2p filesharing and low-lag gaming is going to be the driving force for this adoption. Once the infrastructure is in place and companies can get free high-speed access to customers in their area, a huge new market for broadband services will open up, along with the advertising possibilities targeted at local customers. The rest is the hardware; current wireless routers have insufficient range and bandwidth to make starting such a network on a large scale viable. We would need a cheap, high bandwidth, and long(er) range solution to get this party really started. Maybe in 5-10 years that kind of technology will be available, and then this ad-hoc network will almost create itself. I really find it hard to believe that anyone is really capable of preventing this from happening at this point. We have the will, we have the communication capability, we have the ingenious coders and open source community, I'd say it's pretty much a done deal. All we need is the obvious hardware solution to make it all a reality.

    --
    "I like systems, their application excepted", George Sand (French)
    1. Re:Grassroot MANs Are the Solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, it will mostly be a matter of adapting protocols to deal with high-latency, low-bandwidth, unreliable links like a mesh routed network.

      Mail/News: For non-realtime communication (which it isn't meant for anyway), FidoNet over IP will just work fine if you increase the transfer windows to deal with the latency and wait a bit more before resending packets based on selective ACKs.

      Web: An HTTP extension that says "Oh, and send along any files I may also need" will take care of it. The server already knows the Accept-* headers, now all it needs will be a plugin that can understand the document and make a list of additional resources to send along.

      Interactive login: There will be smarter terminals, and existing protocols will be extended to allow the terminal and the shell to talk about command completion and so on. This technology will be needed anyway, regardless of the horror scenarios in the article, to allow predictive command input on mobile phones.

      SCM tools: Most of the SCM protocols are already "I have that, send all I need to get up to date", which works just fine provided the underlying layers give you reliability. CVS will die.

      File transfers: No problem here.

      Chat: The latency will be low compared to the time people take to write a line, so nearly noone notices.

      Games: The lag is going to suck so harsh that it's impossible to play anything, maybe except for spellcast. I think for that one thing you will have to buy bandwidth and minimum latency, or go to a social event^W^WLAN party.

      In short, there is no real problem for the geeks, just like there was no problem when data services were prohibitely expensive and we had to restrains ourselves to five minutes of online time. The solution back then was to have dedicated software to optimize the transfers, the solution for the dark ages will be the same.

    2. Re:Grassroot MANs Are the Solution by WiseWeasel · · Score: 1

      First, I want to apologize for my messed up formatting in that last post... Having said that, is the lag necessarily true for local connections? I thought Mesh was slow because it relies on sharing regular ISP TCP/IP connections, but maybe if it prioritized local direct connections (routes without going through ISPs), maybe those would get good performance. I guess the bandwidth and the router's data cache would have to be very high for this to be scalable in any way just for the routing overhead, and routers would have to be pretty smart in a coordinated way to figure out optimal routes on the fly, but I think there might be hope for low latency decentralized networks, especially if most of the traffic is within a couple mile radius.

      I guess it would be best to set up super-nodes with long distance range and high bandwidth, and then have most end users on lower range and lower bandwidth nodes. The only problem is providing incentive for super-nodes to happen in a decentralized fashion. Maybe the routers could be capable of being either a super or a regular node, and would configure themselves as the network requires. That seems like it would go a long way towards solving any latency problems, and keep the decentralized unregulated network topology. Now we just have to wait for the technology for long range high bandwidth hops to happen in a manner that doesn't violate FCC regulations.

      --
      "I like systems, their application excepted", George Sand (French)
  28. Hey by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Don't ask him what net he's on, ask him what planet he's on lol

    Personally I think it's the "whining idiot"-planet.

  29. Blah Blah Blah by Kawahee · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Blah Blah Blah ... invented by US military ... blah blah blah ... used by other people/organisations ... blah blah blah ... expect it to be free.

    It might be cynical, but this was essentially my stance on the 'make the internet free' thing. Yes, I think we should make the internet free, but it's not up to the European Union to decide whether it's free or not, it's up to the US and it's their decision that matters.

    And don't take this viewpoint too seriously, because at the moment it's based off my knowledge of current happenings, which may or may not be too correct.

    --
    I'll subscribe to Slashdot when I see a month without a dupe, a typo, or an article the "editors" didn't read.
    1. Re:Blah Blah Blah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am an American living in Europe and I don't understand USA's stance. The inernet doesn't belong to anyone ( I wouldn't like it controlled exclusively by the EU either. Things might be better here for now, but expect it to be worse after Over-Atlantic-Pressures.), but currently the internet's maker is abusing all the internet once standed for through corporate greed. Usa wants the internet? OK with me, as long as it protects the world's interests. And not like our genius did in Iraq.

  30. When I meet a single person... by Belial6 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    When I meet a single person over the age of 20 that has gone a decade without commiting copyright violation, I'll let you know.

    1. Re:When I meet a single person... by jez9999 · · Score: 2, Funny

      So married people are less likely to commit copyright violations? :-)

  31. "Content" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    The problem here is copyright, plain and simple. Instead of a direct market for intellectual labour, copyright gives us a pseudo-market for access to the products of that labour. Now all of a sudden the money's in restricting access to "content". That's right, the financial incentive is to STOP people making use of information. With that counter-productive basis, how is it any surprise that we end up with a market where the sellers have a vested interest in PREVENTING the buyers from getting what they want? This applies to both the publishing houses and the access providers.

  32. The control freaks often get control. by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I agree exactly with the thesis of the article. The Internet is being divided and debased by people who care only about avoiding knowledge of their own deficiencies, such as some of the leaders in China.

    The control freaks often get control. In the past, their power over the Internet has been limited by their extreme technical ignorance. Now, more and more, they are hiring technically knowledgeable people to corrupt and diminish the freedom.

    If the healthy people don't assert their authority, the corrupters will debase the Internet as they debase everything else they touch.

    The ceaseless activity of those whose only life is money and who want to make one more dollar has already caused limits to VOIP, for example. The communications companies want to protect their easy profits. They use VOIP, but they don't want us to do it without their permission or without their profit.

  33. Maybe there is something wrong with the law. by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 4, Interesting

    When so many people break the law, maybe there is something wrong with the law. Maybe there is something wrong with how the problem of intellectual property rights is being approached.

    I've seen NO creative thinking about IP rights. There's a lot of talk, but very little serious progress.

    Maybe history is a guide. For example, did you notice how libraries made all publishers go bankrupt? Not.

    Did you notice that television and video tape recorders utterly destroyed the movie industry? Not.

    I don't download music. However, if I did, it is obvious to me that I would get interested and would buy more CDs.

    I had several very bad experiences with the music industry and their marketing methods. The industry is extremely adversarial toward its artists and its customers. Over time, that caused me to listen to music less and less. What I'm seeing however, is that music industry leaders want to fix their problems without fixing the problems they create for me.

    The world is dominated by people who believe that interacting with other people requires fighting. In fact, the only real solutions to social problems come from thinking.

    1. Re:Maybe there is something wrong with the law. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't watch TV - i DO listen to music. Music by kids, for kids. Don't, please, let the RIAA "win". They have NO RIGHT to place themselves as the middle men of our culture - like a priest stands between the common man and god. Laughable. If you like music, listen to it. Steal it, make it, borrow it, even, buy it. Fight the battles, fight the sources, but NEVER, NEVER, let the harmonies our species has enjoyed for coutless years be subsumed. We must listen to music, we must learn from it, because it is a physical reflection of our selves that is far more then the skin-deep refelection of the self you get from a mirror.

      I hate what they've done to our culture. Fight it by playing your music louder, and buying it less. Do i REALLY care if 'mainstream' music goes away. Okay, it's just possible on the outside that electronic music making machines would be less advanced if it wasn't for the wide-spread popularity, but i seem to recall that the theremin was on the scene way before the music cartels. Off topic - i was in hollywood, CA, yesterday, stepping on the names of the bunkheads with their names on the street. The capitol city records HQ is there, and it a huge building. There is NO WAY music should elevate one to that status. NO way, NO how.. Music. is. not. about. fame.

      But don't let them turn a part of your soul off. that's losing. If i didn't have a CD player i'd play a drum in the backyard. simple.

      jamesr.

  34. Can someone answer this.. by js92647 · · Score: 1

    This isn't really trolling, it is quite relevant too:

    Why must the majority of slashdot news revolve around the "Future" ? I see so many news articles that talk about some guy and how his blog has a little essay where he predicts the future.. blah blah, have the comments argue against it,half for it, etc... Why aren't there news of TODAY? I don't care if some should-have-been-a-blowjob posts on his blog that in the future we'll have to pay more fees for internet and be restricted to a small chunk of it. News is supposed to be News, and some asswipe telling his thoughts in a well-structured essay isn't news, it's opinion.

    I thought Slashdot's slogan was "News for nerds. Stuff that matters." Well, some failure's opinion isn't news, and it doesn't matter.

    As for the article itself, he's missing out the fact that such a movement to restrict Internet and make us pay for these "free" services will cause great tension and perhaps if we're lucky start a war between countries -- thats IF we're lucky --. Of course, like any other good soon-to-be-savior-like-Khan he gives us a "solution" from the get-go. Problem is: No one is going to follow through with it until it's too late, that is, if this happens.

    Those are my 2 cents,
    Jesus out.

    1. Re:Can someone answer this.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because we are going to spend the rest of our lives there?
      Because of all the bad stuff that has happened cannot be changed and the only problems we can avoid are the ones yet to come?
      Because if we wait for problems to become the past, we lose the ability to change it?

      Feel free to add more.

      And the reason why the fredom of the internet can be taken away is because we rely on a company to provide access and that company is open to suasion. Try to connect to the backbone yourself...

    2. Re:Can someone answer this.. by ClamIAm · · Score: 1

      Maybe you aren't trolling. But you are definitlely one thing. You're a moron.

      I really fail to see how the takeover by a small group of people of the greatest technology for human connection and innovation (the Internet) fails to qualify as "stuff that matters". I also fail to see the truth in your assertion that an accomplished writer is really just "some failure".

  35. why do replies appear as parents? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Do we actually have people reading slashdot that upon reading a comment that they want to reply to, go back to the top of the page and use that reply button? Or is it that their parent posts have such piss-poor karma that they don't even get to indent replies?

  36. The Net? by SoupIsGoodFood_42 · · Score: 1

    Is this about Microsoft's .Net software? Oh wait ... The Internet.

  37. Re:Nope, I wouldn't argue any of those numbers ARE by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    I'm sorry 12,000 murders is not a lot in a population of 280 million

    I would say that one murder in a population of 280 million is still one too many.

  38. In America... by jandersen · · Score: 1

    This article and the comments on /. are almost exclusively relevant for USA.

    1. Nobody else in the world worries about Freedom in the way Americans do - like it was something divine, more important than anything else. What we in the rest of the world think about freedom is simply that we can live our daily lives without too many restrictions and without fear. What I think about the American obsession with Freedom (TM) can be summed up thus: If you're starving, all you can think of is food; if you're thirsting, all you can think of is water - perhaps you guys are really starved of freedom?

    2. The internet - it is nice, really useful when it comes to finding information and communicating. I have enjoyed it so far, but I can see more and more reasons why I can't really be bothered with it. It's like TV: initially it was deeply fascinating, then there was things like the news and films; but now it's just wall to wall crap like talk shows, 'reality' TV, films over the same tired, old theme and endless soaps. I have a TV, but I haven't watched it for months. I think the same thing will happen to the internet - those who can get themselves to bother, will use it. Perhaps it will be used for specialised things like VOIP etc.

    I think my point here is that laying on restrictions in thick layers will just end up discouraging people from using it; there's no business sense in it. The internet is not something we can't easily live without if that makes more sense.

    1. Re:In America... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Americans aren't starved for freedom. The reality is a little more compex.

      A stable society is not just something you design - it has to grow. Most of the world has stable societies which go back millennia. The New World of America does not. What do they say about Europe? - It's where the History comes from!

      Americans have a short and not very commendable history. They have rejected the social structure which created stability in the rest of the world and gone for pure greed, mitigated by a set of written rules, as a driving force, which worked well in an expanding land (so long as you didn't care about the original inhabitants).

      They feel this lack of a structure - have you come across the odd American idea of TEACHING people ethics so they stop committing crimes? In Europe your family and society determine your ethics.

      And the more they feel this hole in their lives the more they need to justify their rejection of it. So Freedom is seen as a magic American commodity which makes up for the gap in their history.

    2. Re:In America... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      US citizens are taught from a young age to revere the Constitution that embodies their state. It's purpose, along with the earlier Declaration of Independence, is to enshrine within the charter for a state the citizens' freedom from oppression by that state.
      IMHO, the trend since 1783 has been for the governments elected under that constitution to undermine that purpose, and to allow the government to legislate the morality of its supporters to force compliance from its opponents, to game the electoral system to favour incumbents, and to reward the loyalty partisan supporters with state monies.
      A lot of US citizens, regardless of their political persuasion, feel that two centuries of steadily losing their freedoms from the apparatus of the state is not a good track record. It's not that they are heavily oppressed, either by comparison with contemporary states or with historical counterparts - it's that there is a perception that they are more oppressed than they were last year, and the year before, and that they are powerless to affect this trend.

    3. Re:In America... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pretty insightful, AC.

    4. Re:In America... by Zobeid · · Score: 1

      We're not starved for freedom in the USA. But people tend to become anxious and upset when something that they're accustomed to having is taken away. In the USA we have a lot of freedom, but a little less than we did, say, 30 years ago.

      We haven't lost much. . . yet. And many people haven't noticed or don't care because various issues don't appear to affect them personally. Our liberty has been nibbled away around the edges. But there are always some who are affected and some who do care. And they figure out, if they can lose a little freedom when what's to stop them from losing a lot more?

      That's where the anxiety comes from.

    5. Re:In America... by Nex · · Score: 0

      Boilerplate EuroCant. Nex

    6. Re:In America... by gg3po · · Score: 1
      Nobody else in the world worries about Freedom in the way Americans do

      And you're proud of this?

      What we in the rest of the world think about freedom is simply that we can live our daily lives without too many restrictions and without fear.

      How do you plan to ensure that this state free from fear and restrictions continues into perpetuity. Or is that not necessary? Heaven forbid we should actually have to "worry" about anything in this life.

      perhaps you guys are really starved of freedom?

      This is where I agree with you. We *are* starved for freedom. Allow me to explain:

      If all you've ever eaten is rotten gruel, and someone gives you something a little tastier like say slice of plain white bread, you'll think you've got a real feast on your hands. If however, you're used to eating steak, and suddenly someone is trying to limit you to one slice of the same white bread, you'll likely take offense.

      The majority of the U.S. population lived with a *tremendous* amount of freedom 100 years ago even though a large portion lived in utter slavery. Although slavery was *officially* ended for that minority (sharecropping, Jim Crow, and a state of perpetual debt make this debateable), a new form of slavery has been slowly advancing and overtaking the entire population (now irrespective of race) since that time. This gradual decline greatly accelerated after the two World Wars, and has sped up much more so in recent years. To someone that lives in a place that is content with "security" graciously provided by their own apparently "generous" government (slice of white bread) this may seem bizzare, but to someone familiar with the value of true liberty -- individualism, self-sufficiency, and self-determination -- the reasons are clear. Many Americans, even if they can't verbalize it, feel a sense of longing to return to the level of liberty once enjoyed here -- no longer limited to the just the majority, but now enjoyed by all races and creeds -- removing the hypocrisy of past generations and finally realizing a fullness of the ideals proclaimed in the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

      ---

      A man that will stand for nothing, will fall for anything -- Malcolm X

      --
      ---
  39. People forgets what the internet is by javilon · · Score: 1

    The internet is TCP/IP. That is, a numbering system for nodes and routing rules so you can send small packets of information from A to B.

    Because it is so simple and basic, it is very close to the very definition of communication, and in order to stop it from working it would be neccesary to stop communication at all. I mean, you can inplement TCP/IP over pigeon transport or whatever means of communication is available to you (telephone , radio, messengers, snail mail, etc)

    At the minimum, this days bussiness need to be able to communicate _encrypted_ information with eachother and with foreign bussiness, even in dictatorships, in order to be able to run even a basic economy, so I don't think anybody would be able to stop you from communicating. You just have to register as a bussiness.

    I think people is mistaking the web for the internet.

    --


    When his defense asked, "Which computer has Jon Johansen trespassed upon?" the answer was: "His own."
    1. Re:People forgets what the internet is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The internet is more than just TCP/IP, it's routers, firewalls, switches, etc. It can be mitigated, it can be filtered, it can be subsumed. The use of the term Internet here is a appropriate considering they are mentioning services OTHEr than port 80.

  40. and yet another take on infringement vs. murder by incrhlk · · Score: 2, Interesting

    well...when you consider that most victims of murder knew their killers, (%92 percent among women ) and once the victim has been murdered, they can't be murdered again, and no one wants to hang out/befriend a murder.... ...it seems to me that the supply of victims would diminish to a point that a particular killer would have no one left to kill,

    Conversely, copyright infringement doesn't limit the supply. In fact the opposite is true, the more infringement the greater the supply. Sure i might not want to commit the same infringement twice, but others still can. Try that with murder. You can only pass the same bloody corpse around so much before it ceases to be interesting.

    --
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch.Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
  41. Tubes? by Douglas+Simmons · · Score: 1

    What tubes? Where do these tubes lead, and why do things tend to go down these so-called tubes? I'm sorry but this just doesn't sit well with me.

  42. Re:Nope, I wouldn't argue any of those numbers ARE by RAMMS+EIN · · Score: 1

    ``But 1 person in 30 in the USA are in jail are because of drug crimes''

    I sure hope that's 1 in 30 inmates, not 1 in 30 Americans. Where did you get that data?

    --
    Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
  43. This article SHOULD have more comments, but... by lightyear4 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ...but it is obvious that even the large readership of the slashdot community is either ill informed, indifferent, or uncertain about this issue. Even the article posted at 230am has more activity! This should frighten you!

    Make no mistake...the governance of the Internet and the fight for its control is the most important issue currently at stake. Period. Wars will subside, politicians will be replaced, the world will keep turning. However, if the core principles driving the Internet are not preserved, we as diverse citizens of all nations will forever have lost something magnificent.

    I have been on the Internet for a long, long time. I remember BBSes at pathetic baudrates, when emails didn't travel between ISPs, when there weren't any advertisements online whatsoever. Those of you that remember these changes and are able to see the Internet --- not as it is nor for what it has become, but for what it must be --- please educate the masses. It must exist as a free, uninhibited enity and REMAIN independent of the infrastructure through which it is accessed. Should the day come when borders and binding structure is imposed upon the Internet, we will all have truly lost the most important medium for communcation, commerce, and culture ever created.

    1. Re:This article SHOULD have more comments, but... by mblase · · Score: 1

      ...but it is obvious that even the large readership of the slashdot community is either ill informed, indifferent, or uncertain about this issue.

      Or maybe it's just because the essay's been Slashdotted.

    2. Re:This article SHOULD have more comments, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow... you are really full of shit.

      All the Internet is is a bunch of networks hooked together.

      If Da Big Ebil Gubments over-regulate the Internet, all you have to do to start another is connect some networks together. Hey you could call it Internet-2. Oh wait, no, someone already did that.

      Well you could be really original and call yours Internet++.

      Let's be a little more realistic okay? The Internet is cool, it's fun, and it's useful, but it's JUST a network. Don't like it? Start another.

    3. Re:This article SHOULD have more comments, but... by chronicon · · Score: 1
      ...but it is obvious that even the large readership of the slashdot community is either ill informed, indifferent, or uncertain about this issue. Even the article posted at 230am has more activity! This should frighten you!... Should the day come when borders and binding structure is imposed upon the Internet, we will all have truly lost the most important medium for communcation, commerce, and culture ever created.

      Thank you for your on-topic post! It is appalling that their hasn't been more discussion on the issue considering how important to us it is, individually & collectively.

      Doc has a great quote from Larry Lessig in his article on the second front of this battle, the copyfight. The extremists in that front are not Lessig & Creative Commons (as many entities would have us believe) but the:

      ...copyright extremists of the Sonny Bono school, which favors extension of copyright to "forever less one day". In... [the other front of the] debate the radicals are the carriers. We need to fight them, just as Larry and crew need to fight the copyright extremists: by re-framing the subject.

      This war to keep the net free (as in unrestricted access to content) is being fought on two fronts and both should be considered equally important, IMO. The writing on the wall regarding copyright issues has been there since the Copyright Term Extension act hit the legislative fan. The carrier front was announced to the masses right here just a couple weeks ago, and (in general) summarily dismissed--I think most of us thought the SBC guy was just plain nuts since we're all already paying for connections. I'm very glad to see this articl by Doc Searls laying out issues of both battlefronts. He closes that right now is the time for us to act on these issues, and he's absolutely correct.

      Creative Commons is having a fund raiser and the response has been woefully lacking thus far. It's not even so much about money. They could lose their non-profit status if they can't show support from individuals!

      Are we members of EFF? I don't necessarily agree with every position they take but at least they keep me informed on what subversive anti-free-internet proposals are working their way through congress, and how I can help stop them. May I suggest the following actions based on Docs article:

      1. We have to stay informed (join EFF or at least sign up for their e-mail bulletins)
      2. We have to support the organizations fighting for our freedoms.(Five bucks right now towards Creative Commons isn't going to kill anybodys budget. If you can afford to access the internet, you're probably NOT destitute. If you blog post a button for them.)
      3. We have to be freedom fighters and do what we can (i.e. call our reps & senators) to assist in this cause.

      If we sit back and assume that the freedoms we enjoy on the internet today are just going to go on forever, without taking any action to ensure this happens, then we have already lost, haven't we?

    4. Re:This article SHOULD have more comments, but... by JamesOfTheDesert · · Score: 1
      All the Internet is is a bunch of networks hooked together.

      Can't recall the source offhand, but there was an article not so long ago by some smart guy who explained that the net was essentially a set of agreements. People agree to send packets around with a known format, and agree to follow certain routing conventions. So while starting a new Net might be a pain in the ass, it is indeed quite feasible, and will ceertainly happen (if it hasn't already, in numerous guises) if and when the current Official Internet goes bad.

      --

      Java is the blue pill
      Choose the red pill
  44. Could someone condense it? by RAMMS+EIN · · Score: 1

    I started reading TFA, but it contains too much sensationalism and hyperboles for me to put up with. Could someone condense it a bit; summarize the actual arguments and reasoning?

    --
    Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
    1. Re:Could someone condense it? by Coeurderoy · · Score: 1

      Once upon a time somebody invented a way to use various set of hardwares to transmit data from one user to another, without really needing the users to be aware of what the hardware was.
      Most of the "intelligence" concerning what gets transmitted was on each users hw.
      The owner of the hardwares didn't like it, because it frees the user from dependence to a "connection" providers, almost all solutions to connect are equivalent, this creates competition and transforms Telcos into "commodities" (This means low margings)
      The owner of the "media" didn't like this because they saw that it enabled anybody to send out to anybody whatever they like, it removes control from them.
      So the Telcos and the media go to the governement and start to cry:
            This internet is full of boggeymens of all sort, only if we control it can we hunt the boogeymens!
            and we have all these "useful idiots" around ready to show you how bad the boggeymens are !!
      And since the government saw that this new tool could also be a tool to transfer control from a center to the people, and since the people who have the power in any government/party/etc... like some stability, and since they see that stability is easier to achieve if the center tells the people "how to behave", the governments like the media and the telco better than the people.

      So we are loosing, most probably in a couple of years if you want to create a web site you will have to have attended the right schools, have the right connections, and then ask the web studio majors to bless your project.
      And of course your web site should take in account the best interest of the advertizers.

      And you know what it will be all YOUR fault :-)

    2. Re:Could someone condense it? by Burz · · Score: 1

      Summary:
      The Internet may be forced to devolve into Cable TV, so we need to read George Lakoff's book and start talking about the Internet as a place in order to save it.

      (...tongue firmly in cheek. OK, so I agree about the devoling part.)

  45. Re:Getting rid of the trash. by govt-serpent · · Score: 2, Funny

    Of course we can delete the internet. Kris Kristofferson could do it. There's that device to delete the internet inside the president's desk.

  46. Re:Getting rid of the trash. by tehdaemon · · Score: 2, Insightful
    "Second, it's impossible to massively delete every single site on the Internet."

    Wrong. Block port 80. boom - most of the sites on the internet are gone.

    And that is exactly the sort of thing TFA is talking about. Pay us, or your site goes bye-bye.

    --
    Laws are horrible moral guides, moral guides make even worse laws.
  47. What a windbag by FishandChips · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Just my two cents but I found this article poorly written and hard to follow. So many quotes and right-on allusions: is the writer worried we'll think he hasn't got much to say? And a pervasive sense that drama and crisis are being manufactured from materials that aren't really up to it. Other writers around, notably Robert X. Cringely, cover this territory with more style (and without an obsessive interest in hyperlinks).

    Maybe this guy should leave computers alone and go far away and do something completely different for a year. Great way of clearing the head. Perhaps he'd get some new perspectives on life and find he'd gotten a better writing style too.

    Bob Young, who recently stepped down at Red Hat, made a very important point the other day. The present generation of lawmakers may be clueless about IT, but they are reaching retirement age now. The next generation is a lot more knowledgeable about IT having grown up with it for most of their adult lives. Over the next 5-10 years, expect lawmakers to show a more sophisticated approach to IT legislation and a lot less indulgence towards big corporations and cartels trying to pull a fast one. If this is true - a big if but not unlikely - then Searl's dire predictions are not going to happen.

    --
    Las qué passoun
    tournoun pas maï
    1. Re:What a windbag by Bhasin_N · · Score: 1

      Small point, but lawyers with more IP experience would help defend pro-business laws equally well. Possibly better than say, pro-bono work for something which dosen't even have a human face and no political pay-off? ( course, I feel im wrong about the pay-off part, meh, Im going to get bitten for it anyway.) From the article, hes saying that cable operators are using the analogy "pipes" to explain the net. He is suggesting that to fight this we have to use the analogy "place" when we discuss the interne. It's odd, that when someone is suggesting that the internet may end up having centralized control over whats being transmitted, Comments with the highest karma rating refute points which are not directly related to the article, and are the majority.

  48. FREEDOM! by dwayner79 · · Score: 1

    We are not starved of it... we are addicted to it. We really like it. We think that freedom and the free flow of information is a pretty good thing. Quite frankly, we are curious why others like their dictatorships and cencorship. Here's a secret, they DON'T! They just get shot if they say so. Are you a communist?

    --
    Religion and politics, without the flame. godgab.org
    1. Re:FREEDOM! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, the US of A are directly responsible of supporting dictatorships in many countries when it supports their interests. Now let's just think about how much freedom we actually have in America... hmmm... patriot act. Hmmm... I can't in my right mind be a communist, it's evil. hmm... Well, I probably can't wear a T-shirt with the anarchist symbol without the police all over me... hmmm. Well, so much for freedom... the terrorists have won with the help of our goverment! ;-)

    2. Re:FREEDOM! by wpiman · · Score: 1

      That clarification comes to you from the Junior Senator from Wisconsin.

    3. Re:FREEDOM! by Bonobo_Unknown · · Score: 1

      Freedom isn't Free man! Don't you get it?

      ... me niether, but it sure is catchy!

      I think it's worthy of a country and western song...
      I see the chorus as something like this:

      Freedom isn't Free Copyright and patent pending etc...

      Freedom isn't Free, amigo,
      an happyness, it ain't glee

      Brought to you buy the letter B, the number 3 and the minitru!

      --
      We don't believe in radical loony monotheistic religions from the middle east -- we're Christians.
  49. This guy is a hack! by brunes69 · · Score: 2, Funny

    I mean, he loses credibility in the first sentence.. "This is a long essay. There is, however, no limit to how long I could have made it.". Of course there is a limit!

    We all know that the number of computer bits that man could ever possibly compute is 1.35x(10^20), so his essay could *never* be more than that long, or else it would neve rbe completed.

    Foolish!

    1. Re:This guy is a hack! by ClamIAm · · Score: 1

      You assume a form of afterlife does not exist. I win.

  50. Paranoia by Darkling-MHCN · · Score: 1

    Sorry but this is just a load of bullocks...

    The internet is a self configuring network, designed to withstand nuclear strikes. I think it can survive anything big business tries to throw at it. It doesn't rely on any particular means of transport, it'll go over optic fibre, down telephone and power lines, over satellite, wireless radio frequencies and probably quantum wahwah's within a few years. These blow hard's refered to in this article are living in the 90's if they really believe they're sitting on a gold mine with their network of cables.

    Even if they could put pressure on the "Free Loaders", it wouldn't work, it's already been tried several times where a free internet service has built up a huge subscriber base only to be taken over and turned into a paid service.... guess what happens, everyone leaves and goes somewhere else. The technology is out there, the horse has already bolted, it can't be undone. I think the smart business men out there have already come to terms with this. Google's success is proof of it, it has constructed business model's that assume that the information services it offers to the public will never generate revenue for them directly, they rely on indirect means of earning income.

    1. Re:Paranoia by ClamIAm · · Score: 1

      Then why do we need ICANN? The truth is that, while protocols can be self-configuring, the features we use to make things actually work (assigned IPs, DNS) are all in one place. Also, people access the Internet over a limited number of carriers. Changing a few laws can cause havoc.

  51. **AA Didn't Drive Bittorrent by RAMMS+EIN · · Score: 1

    ``If it weren't for RIAA smashing napster, we probably wouldn't have torrents (at least not yet).''

    Not true. Bittorrent was created to solve the problem of serving a single file to many users, without overloading the server the file resides on. It was used for perfectly legitimate purposes long before it started getting popular as a means to illegally distribute media. The RIAA had nothing to do with its creation.

    Your point is right, though. If it wasn't for the bad guys, we wouldn't have a lot of the good technology we have now, or at least it wouldn't be so widespread and high quality (due to lack of interest). See also my essay Why We Should be Grateful for Viruses.

    On the other hand, if it wasn't for the bad guys, maybe all the effort that went in countering them could have been used to make improvements in other, more productive directions. However, that's purely hypothetical, because there will always be bad guys, unless the human psyche changes radically, and then all bets are off.

    --
    Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
  52. You have a keen grasp of the obvious. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Does TFA have anything deeper to say? You are right; most of us are NOT going to read a really, really long article... unless we find some irresistable tidbits herein.

  53. Re:George Bush says by sigzero · · Score: 0

    Stupid it isn't about separate networks!!

  54. freedom aint anything if no one hears by cinnamon+colbert · · Score: 1

    So what if hte internet is free ?
    Informaiton only counts to the extent people hear it. If WalMart can spend 100 MM dollars telling people how happy employees are, and mistreated employees can spend 0.01, whoose message gets heard

  55. The popular myth of racism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I know that this a long post, but everyone should read this essay.

    ZNet Commentary
    Not Everyone Felt That Way September 12, 2005
    By Tim Wise

    When I was a kid, I remember my maternal grandmother defending Richard Nixon for the crimes of Watergate, because, as she put it: "He didn't do anything any worse than what every other President did." Knowing, even at six, that this was hardly a morally compelling justification for one's actions, even if true, I recall how it infuriated me to hear it over and over again, whenever politics were discussed in my grandparent's home.

    Little did I realize that such obfuscation was hardly unique to certain members of my family. Indeed, throughout the years, it seemed like whenever Watergate came up in conversation (as it would for a long time after 1974, and Iran/Contra after that), someone would pull out this same canard, repeating with the precision of an atomic clock, that "so-and-so didn't do anything that every other President/Senator/Congressman, or whatever, didn't also do." And invariably, those who would say these things were always staunch supporters of whatever asshole was being criticized: whether it was Nixon, Reagan, or Bill Clinton.

    It's almost as if stupid arguments spread by osmosis, or some such thing. So we end up with people who have never met each other, nonetheless miraculously spewing the same apologetics, as if they had gotten some kind of memo instructing them on what to say whenever one of their personal heroes stepped in it.

    So too, the oft-heard argument that one shouldn't be too harsh on this nation's founders, or other early USAmerican Presidents, when it comes to slaveholding, or involvement in Indian genocide, because, after all, they were "products of their time," and shouldn't be judged by the moral standards of the modern world.

    I heard this one again recently, after an article of mine hit the Internet, in which I discussed, among other things, the depredations of Andrew Jackson: one of this nation's premier Indian killers.

    The person who wrote to attack me as a "PC liberal" who "hates America," insisted that Jackson, and others like Thomas Jefferson shouldn't be evaluated on the basis of today's moral "underpinnings." And as with every other instance in which something like this has been said to me, in this case too, the comment was made absent any awareness on the part of its author, as to the position's utter absurdity.

    The most infuriating thing about the "men of their times" defense, is that by insisting Jackson, Jefferson and the rest were in line with the standards accepted by all in their day, apologists ignore, in a blatantly racist fashion, that to the blacks being enslaved, or the Indians being killed, slavery and genocide were hardly acceptable.

    In other words, the "everybody back then felt that way" argument assumes that the feelings of non-whites don't count. Some folks always knew mass murder and land theft were wrong: namely, the victims of either. That lots of white folks didn't, hardly acquits them in this instance. It's not as if the human brain was incapable of recognizing the illegitimacy of killing and enslavement.

    Secondly, beliefs that killing and stealing are wrong hardly emerged in the 20th or 21st centuries. Indeed, the very people who suggest we should cut the founders slack because of the standards of their day, are overwhelmingly the kind of Bible-thumping conservatives who insist morality is timeless, and who clamor for the posting of the Ten Commandments in the public square for this very reason. Yet they appear to have forgotten that among those Commandments (which were not, after all, handed down to Billy Graham in the 1950s, but rather to someone else a wee bit earlier) are prohibitions against murder and theft.

    In other words, the founders don't merely offend by today's moral standards; they offended by the moral standards set in place at least by the time of Moses.

    But there's something else troubling about this kind of argument:

    1. Re:The popular myth of racism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I realize that was a C&P:)

      However that guy completely missed that slavery was accepted in the bible. (several passages are devoted to the care and feeding of slaves:)

  56. Danger, Internet Robinson. by bzipitidoo · · Score: 2, Interesting
    The article is long, complex, and tends to hysteria. I'll try to summarize:

    The Internet is wonderful and useful, because it is free. It's freedom is a fragile thing. Forces of ignorance and outright evil are attempting to gain control so they can profit, at public expense of course. If they succeed, freedom will be a collateral casualty. The war is fought at the most elementary level, human language. Those who convincingly define the issues can frame the debate in a manner that assures victory. The other side has won victories by defining the Internet experience in terms of content = property = scarce resource. We have content providers, content carriers, and consumers. And this is the wrong way to view the Internet. The Internet is a commons, where everyone can have their place and publish anything they want. We have to change the debate now! Stop letting these forces define the issues by getting there first and defining them the way WE want, or we'll lose the Internet! Write your congressperson! Join the EFF today!!!

    That's how the article sounded to me. Very black and white. I think some of this is justified, but I object to several things here. First off, the tone of the thing: the article makes up a category with two pigoenholes, stuffs everyone into one or the other, declares one to be right and the other to be wrong, and exhorts the "right" side to go to war to defend us. It's as if the forces on the "wrong" side know very well they are in the wrong, but have made a conscious decision to be evil because evil is profitable. Except they don't know they're wrong, or evil. They are convinced they are right. The response is good intentions lead to hell, and they ought to know better, and therefore they are still evil. But we don't know all that. What seems dangerous to me is this "if you're not with the Internet, then you're against it" attitude that could push a lot of neutrals to the "wrong" side. Worse is singling out some and tarring them as evil-- could anger multifaceted entities with genuinely sympathetic views if this is done in error.

    Second is the presumption that the freedoms and Internet are fragile. The implication is that it wouldn't be so fragile if we weren't so dumb, and I don't buy that. There are simply too many people with too much at stake to allow the Internet to fail, or to be given over to a narrow consortium of interests, or turned into a morass of censorship and patronizing guidance of consumers to products. Many people are too smart to be hoodwinked into going along with such dastardly schemes, and too smart to swallow those lines about it being "for own own good". This illustrates a basic problem with liberals and democrats. They evidently don't see that most people can see these dangers too, and go way out trying to "educate", not realizing that they are actually insulting our intelligence. Most everyone who has experienced DRM quickly perceives what a bad deal it is, and if they don't, need only hear what would be possible if not for DRM and what used to be possible to conclude on their own that they've been had. Ironic that well meant but snobby and elitist efforts to save us from being turned into cattle and suckers talks down to us as if we already are. And ironic that their efforts to strengthen the freedoms and Internet through "better" govt regulation may actually be the greatest danger facing the Internet.

    So what should we be doing? Fighting evil, or educating, or inventing and debating? Or just relax because it'll all turn out all right in the end? Do no harm....

    --
    Intellectual Property is a monopolistic, selfish, and defective concept. It is "tyranny over the mind of man"
  57. Just one defense by Bonobo_Unknown · · Score: 1

    Let them take their pipes and err... put them in their pipes and smoke them. We'll just use peer to peer wireless...

    --
    We don't believe in radical loony monotheistic religions from the middle east -- we're Christians.
  58. What the fuck is he on about? by DataCannibal · · Score: 0, Redundant

    I've read Doc Searls for a few years in Linux Journal and occasional web articles and I always come away asking myself "what is he talking about?" His articles refer to other articles or weblogs and to converstaions with other people (who have always been friends of his for years) and he writes about the conversations they have, or some address he has given at some conference that I have never heard of, and they all seem to know what the everyone else one is talking about. But to me it might as well be two people talking in Klingon to each other.

    Do they all really know what they are on about or are all these clued up people afraid to admit to each other that they don't understand what's going on.

    I hear a couple of phrases like "Markets are conversations" which I can can parse but not comprehend, lots of "hip" phrases like "The Cluetrain Manifesto" but what does it all have to do with the price of sliced bread, to use a British idiom, or put it another way what does it have to do with me doing things like wasting time on Slashdot or buying books on Amazon.

    Can anyone please translate what he says into normal english?

    --
    No but, yeah but, no but...
  59. More of a dimwit speech than an impressive essay by reignbow · · Score: 1

    A very spirited piece of writing, I have to admit. It actually sounds more like a speech held in front of a crowd than an essay, and it shows:
    * lack of structure: half the time I don't know why he suddenly starts talking about something
    * biased semantics: calling us the chosen ones, the underdogs and the other guys sharks and goliaths is very florid, but when somebody aims for my ego, I usually assume that he doesn't have the arguments to aim for my mind
    * supposition: he talks a lot about what companies (very complex entities) "think," but gives very little indication how he learnt this

    However, there is one key point that completely destroys the article, in my opinion: He only talks about the States! The internet is generally accepted to be a global thing, and while US IT companies (Google, Microsoft) may have global reach, US carriers do not. I don't know a single person whose internet is delivered through Comcast, TimeWarner or any other company he named. And to think that the US carriers could use any stranglehold on the states market to gain global dominance... well, that's pretty ludicrous. Because all the european, asian or other carriers will just be happy to roll over and die. Right.

    As a location reference: I am currently in Norway, but usually live in Germany.

    --
    Divide et impera!
  60. War by Jpauls104 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    What happens when a few rouges from one culture enter another culture against their will... War.

    I personally believe the internet is worth fighting for, perhaps not physically, but logically.

    1. Re:War by TheoMurpse · · Score: 1

      What happens when a few rouges from one culture enter another culture against their will

      You get Iranian women using lots of Western cosmetics.

  61. Whoever subsidize media will control it! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Today there is freedom of expression on Internet because everyone who connect to the Internet through ISP's pays!

    If media is subsidized by advertisement then advertisers will control the media. We know this from past experience with other media like print, radio, TV etc.

    Many companies already tried running free advertisement supported ISP's and failed. If they had succeeded WWW already would have flushed down the tubes....

    We can see the effect of Google advertisements on the WWW! 1000's of made for google adsense scrapper sites with poor content has started appearing! Current success of adsense is temporary since lots of new net users coming on the net think adsense ads are site navigation links and click on them! Soon advertisers will understand this and start bidding lower for google ads and hype and adnonsense will die natural death like earlier web 1.0 banner ad models!

    Internet will retain freedom of expression only until advertisement models fail.... the moment WWW becomes truly ads subsidized, freedom of expression will get flushed down the tubes.....

  62. Mod parent up? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I never heard of mirrordot before... Cool!

  63. Mirror by John+Jorsett · · Score: 2, Informative

    MirrorDot mirror of the Slashdotted LinuxJournal page.

    1. Re:Mirror by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not slashdotted.

      Linux Journal Is Currently Unavailable Due to a Denial of Service (DoS) Attack Sorry for any inconvenience.

    2. Re:Mirror by John+Jorsett · · Score: 1
      It's not slashdotted.

      It was at the time I posted the mirror link. Or maybe I just like going to the trouble of putting up links for no reason.

  64. Please Enlighten Me O Ye Saviors of Freedom by NDPTAL85 · · Score: 1

    Can someone please let me know what content my ISP, RCN Cable is blocking me from seeing? I can view all the porn I want, view all the innacurate independent news sites that I want..... I don't see what I'm missing out on here.

    --
    Mac OS X and Windows XP working side by side to fight back the night.
    1. Re:Please Enlighten Me O Ye Saviors of Freedom by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can someone please let me know what content my ISP, RCN Cable is blocking me from seeing? I can view all the porn I want, view all the innacurate independent news sites that I want..... I don't see what I'm missing out on here.

      As long as you keep paying your ISP for net access you will retain your freedom.

      The moment you accept a free ISP / subsidized ISP you will lose your freedom!!!

  65. Take China for instance by jgardn · · Score: 1

    I think China is a great example. Even when a government gets hellbent on destroying the people's ability to use the internet, people find a way around it. No matter how bad it gets in America, it can never be as bad as it is now in China. And yet the internet is still working the way it was intended in China, and people are able to circumvent whatever controls the government puts in place.

    Here's another example: Spam. No matter what we have tried to stop spam, nothing has worked, not even close. Spam is unstoppable. We have switched our efforts from outrunning the bear to outrunning those around us. Spam represents the capability of individuals to do things on the interent despite what those around them allow.

    --
    The radical sect of Islam would either see you dead or "reverted" to Islam.
  66. Human sacrifice vs slavery by bidule · · Score: 1


    Note that before slavery grew from popular to an industry, it was the norm to sacrifice your enemies to your god. Slavery was certainly a big step forward in ethical behavior then, just as abandoning it is another now.

    It's not because others in the world die of hunger that we shouldn't feed our poors. Everything is relative.

    I am sure in another century or two, people will find some of our behavior barbaric.

    --
    ID: the nose did not occur naturally, how would we wear glasses otherwise? (apologies to Voltaire)
    1. Re:Human sacrifice vs slavery by somersault · · Score: 1

      I was thinking along the same lines - it's possibe in a few centuries (maybe even decades?) that people will consider the use of cars as 'barbaric' because of the pollution they pump out - causing damage to both the environment and other humans. I'm sure that were we to meet someone from the future that we'd want to be judged relative to our peers rather than people from a more 'enlightened' society. It really is all relative, and anyone who thinks that someone who is brought up in a violent/immoral environment should be able to act in a civilised and respectable way, risking their survival (most basic of our insticts is just to survive), has no ability to think outside of their own situation. I dont agree with slavery, but if I was living hundreds of years ago, I honestly cant say what I'd think about it. I cant imagine ever condoning racism or slavery - and I'd like to think that were I born at any point in history that I wouldnt have condoned them, but I know that with the right environmental conditioning, anyone would likely believe anything. With enough time then maybe their sense of morals would kick in, but who honestly knows.

      --
      which is totally what she said
  67. Bull by hummassa · · Score: 3, Interesting

    ** my feelings gathered in the two years I was a paralegal in a DA's office, and in the nine/ten years my wife (who is a DA) spent in prosecuting cases ::
    The great majority (90%+) of violence is assault.
    The great majority (90%+) of assaults are against one's spouse.
    The great majority (90%+) of battered wifes does NOT separate, press charges, or otherwise go away from their assailants.
    Violence IS a repeat crime. Murder is when a violent person makes a mistake and goes overboard.

    --
    It's better to be the foot on the boot than the face on the pavement. ~~ tkx Kadin2048
  68. Civil versus criminal by hummassa · · Score: 1

    Copyright infringement is a criminal offense. It shouldn't be. Period.

    --
    It's better to be the foot on the boot than the face on the pavement. ~~ tkx Kadin2048
    1. Re:Civil versus criminal by imsmith · · Score: 1

      No, it isn't. Copyright is part of the _civil_ code. You can't go to gen-pop at a federal maximum security prison and make your own personal rendition of Oz for copyright violations.

  69. LJ Down by whereiswaldo · · Score: 1

    Looks like Linux Journal is Slashdotted. Here's what I get in H1 font when visiting the page:

    "Linux Journal Is Currently Unavailable Due to a Denial of Service (DoS) Attack"

  70. Another century? by Cro+Magnon · · Score: 1

    Some people already find the actions of our politicians and corporations barbaric.

    --
    Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
    1. Re:Another century? by Foobar+of+Borg · · Score: 1
      Cro Magnon (467622)

      Some people already find the actions of our politicians and corporations barbaric.

      And this is so obvious, even a Cro Magnon can figure it out :-p

  71. One thing Searls doesn't get by windowpain · · Score: 1

    This guy "Doc" Searls comes across as a bit hysterical. His essay is filled with hyperbole, half-truths and misinterpretations.

    First, as others have pointed out, this is a very America-centric story. He starts off with a dumb question:

    "Are you ready to see the Net privatized from the bottom to the top?"

    In the US the Net is largely in private hands already: SBC, Level Three, inter alia.

    Here's a bigger problem I have with the essay:

    Searls misinterprets or simply ignores one aspect of SBC CEO Edward Whitacre's argument. Whitacre is a douchebag but he does have one legitimate beef. Here in the states cable companies have been granted monopolies in most cities in which they operate in return for a cut of the take going to the cities in which they operate. Now, in addition to carrying TV shows they're offering telephone service (and by the nature of broadband, providing the means for others to offer it) over their pipes.

    Telephone companies have long been heavily regulated. They now have the opportunity to lay down fiber optic lines to customers' homes and businesses. As they do it, it will become natural for them to offer television programming. But they can't do it in many cases because of the cable monopoly. Here in New Jersey they're running radio ads arguing for ending those monopolies so they can compete with cable.

    So although Whitacre might aspire to charge tolls above and beyond the fees he already gets from his customers (insane) he does have a (reasonable) point. In a nutshell: If the cable companies can offer telephone service without needing any further regulatory approval then the phone companies should be able to offer television without any further regulatory approval.

    If they do, consumers will benefit.

    --
    Insert witty sig here.
  72. From the site: by dcapel · · Score: 1

    "Linux Journal Is Currently Unavailable Due to a Denial of Service (DoS) Attack"

    Oh come on, that's a little harsh on Slashdot, no?

    --
    DYWYPI?
  73. DoS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Linux Journal Is Currently Unavailable Due to a Denial of Service (DoS) Attack

    Sorry for any inconvenience.

    Haha

  74. More conspiracy theories==egotism by redelm · · Score: 1
    As usual, someone is worrying too much, and probably about the wrong things. First, filtering doesn't work. Look at the Great FIrewall of China. It may stop some (or even many) user, but it will not stop all, and clever people will help those less clever. Filtering on IP doesn't work with redirectors, and ports are a joke.

    Second, conspiracy theorists assume motivations to fit their worldview. In most cases, their adversaries have no interest in them (assuming it is the egotism). In this case, it assumes telcos are competant and visionary. Neither has been much in evidence. Telcos shovel bits, and do that reasonably well. None has the slightest clue about content. Telcos will push their bit shovelling any way they can. Proprietary content is a dead-end -- look at AOL.

  75. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 0

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  76. Re:Nope, I wouldn't argue any of those numbers ARE by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Those are widespread numbers. Violent crimes (I'm sorry 12,000 murders is not a lot in a population of 280 million) are not. You just hear about the violence a lot whenever you listen to Fox News or whenever the police or government are trying to take your rights away.

    A jab at Fox News. How original, inspired, and insightful; especially among the independent free-thinkers here at Slashdot.

    Because no other media outlet sensationalizes violence.

  77. Intellectual "Monopoly", please by BenoitGirard · · Score: 1

    Perceptions are important.

    I suggest we start substituting the expression "Intellectual Monopoly" every time They use "Intellectual Property".

    Not only does this sound better to a pro-liberty public but, more significantly, it restores the original meaning of the copyright notion.

    It can also act as a much needed slogan that express most concisely what we mean.

  78. Re:Nope, I wouldn't argue any of those numbers ARE by khallow · · Score: 1

    Maybe the real statistic is that over their lifetimes 1 in 30 US citizens (or perhaps residents) will be put on probation or incarcerated for drug-related offenses. IIRC, slightly less than 1% of US residents are currently in prison and as of the mid to late-90's crudely half of those were in jail for drug-related offenses. So that would be around 1 in 200 jailed for drug related offenses.

  79. Re:Nope, I wouldn't argue any of those numbers ARE by Enigma2175 · · Score: 1

    But 1 person in 30 in the USA are in jail are because of drug crimes

    According to the DOJ, 1 in 31 people in the US are on probation, parole, or in jail or prison. That would certainly contradict your statistic. Although, if you meant 1 in 30 people in the prison population is in on drug crimes, that would be much too low. From stopthedrugwar.org:

    "the Justice Department number-crunchers found that people sentenced for drug crimes accounted for 21% of state prisoners and 55% of all federal prisoners."

    "an earlier BJS report put the percentage of jail inmates doing time for drug crime at 24.7% in 2002"

    "the total number of people doing time for drugs in the United States last year exceeded 530,000."

    --

    Enigma

  80. Way to Go Doc! by eno2001 · · Score: 1

    Someone finally calls Slashdot on their "Slashdot Effect" for what it really is: a DDoS. Whoohoo!!! Let the flamewar begin!!!

    --
    -"...bad old ideas look confusingly fresh when they are packaged as technology" - Jaron Lanier (Digital Maoism on Edge.o
  81. Perhaps not dark, but dimming ... by Empty+Yo · · Score: 1
    You are right, history was worse than what we have now, but I can see where the previous poster was coming from. What we have is in decline, not in growth.

    Sure, I can vote, but my vote means nothing when those voting machines can be tapped into from some back room and manipulated without any paper trail to ensure my vote is counted and counted fairly. Where ever Diebold machines were used, there were statistically anomalous results, most of which are impossible to explain through sheer chance. I never thought I would live to see the day of rigged elections, secret prisons and government accepted torture in the US ... but they are here, nonetheless.

    Sure, I have an Internet connection, but my broadband provider is telling me which services available on the Internet I can use to their potential and which they will hobble because they disagree with them. I could go to another provider, but they are all considering something similar in my area. I pay twice as much as a Frenchman for 1/4 the speed and I'm supposed to think this is a good deal.

    Yes, I can post angrily on Slashdot, but only under a pseudonym. If someone discovers who I am, then the flood of angry "take it or leave it" emails start pouring in, along with the death threats, badly spelled insults and racial slurs that seem to pop up when you disagree with the religious right. My neighbours will start to slander me for being unpatriotic because some jacknut on Fox News told them that the only way to be patriotic is to goose-step like good little soldiers and they can't see it any other way.

    Yes, I'm not starving, but plenty of people in the States are every day and that number is growing all the time. Every company that ships their operations overseas to the cheap labour is another nail in the coffin of the middle class and when that is successfully killed off by the elite here in the west, we'll have nothing but low paying service jobs to cling to. Most Wal-Mart employees have to use food stamps to get by if they have a family. That's our future as a nation.

    I like what I have now and it is better than any time in history, but the powerful always want more and that will come at my expense unless I defend what I already have. I don't like the slide I'm seeing at all.

    --
    I'll tolerate anything except intolerance.
  82. Analogy - Radio by Bilbo · · Score: 1
    I think a useful example of what you are talking about is the history of Radio. Not too long ago, when the radio industry was just starting up, it was fairly commonplace for individuals to set up small transmitters and create their own "stations". Of course, this created complete anarchy, and generally these small operators would step all over each other. If someone stronger than you started jamming your broadcast with their own signal, you just hopped to a different frequency. Once on the air, you could transmit anything you liked -- make up your own shows, read poetry, sing songs, give political commentary -- sort of like the Internet is now.

    Of course, the government stepped in to create some kind of order and started regulating the radio spectrum. On the one hand, we have solved the "problem" of the anarchy and the rule of the airwaves by whomever had the money to afford the strongest transmitter, but what do we have left? Endless stations broadcasting Brittney Spiers's latest new single?

    --
    Your Servant, B. Baggins
    1. Re:Analogy - Radio by ClamIAm · · Score: 1

      I think that the interesting thing about the Internet is that currently you have the best of both the worlds you describe (OK, not the best, but bear with me). We have anarchy in the sense that no one party can truly control what goes on, but we have some regulations in place to minimize people stepping all over each other.

  83. Re:Getting rid of the trash. by Mac+Degger · · Score: 1

    Look at China and the middle east. The tech was supplied by US companies. The FBI has recently retasked it's priorities from terrorism to porn. The internet is /the/ porn distribution network in the world. Re-read your post. Now who looks like an idiot?

    "It's exactly the opposite of what the Internet is supposed to be, which is unmonitored and Free."

    Yeah...I agree...but it's a cute theory which is rapidly turning into myth; reality is much different, and China et all point in the direction we don't want it to go, but which is all to probable.

    --
    -- Waht? Tehr's a preveiw buottn?
  84. The ethics of numbers.-Cheap IP. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "No. Prices have gone down. It's easier NOW than THEN to create IP because the technology is more available."

    Not quite. For some IP technology has made it easier, but that's not a universal position.* Second one needs to remember that technology has affected distribution far more than it has affected the creative aspect.

    *The creation of new drugs takes longer and costs more than it did "back in the day". Second due to various conditions, including economic, at well as cultural, the required technology may not be available (more or otherwise).

  85. spam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    guy.renault@univ-poitiers.fr

    anthony.aubree@univ-poitiers.fr

  86. Re:Analogy - Radio - What I Forgot to Add by Bilbo · · Score: 1

    ... The point I intended to make, in response to the parent article, is that what we have lost is the freedom of access to radio as a broadcast medium. Currently, access to the Internet is open to anyone with a few bucks a month to pay for an ISP connection. Once on-line, we can publish pretty much anything we want. That ability no longer exists, as the "ownership" of the air-waves has been divided up between the big CONTENT providers. I have a feeling that this is the scenario that the original article is concerned with -- an "Internet" owned by the content and "pipe" providers, where only approved content is served, and the rest of us (unless we have Big $$$ to pay for access) are simply "consumers" of that content.

    --
    Your Servant, B. Baggins
  87. DOS attack! by RealityThreek · · Score: 1

    Linux Journal Is Currently Unavailable Due to a Denial of Service (DoS) Attack

    Sorry for any inconvenience.


    HA HA.

    --
    :wq
  88. I Guess So by Master+of+Transhuman · · Score: 1

    Linux Journal Is Currently Unavailable Due to a Denial of Service (DoS) Attack
    Sorry for any inconvenience. /. will no doubt be under investigation by the FBI for this DoS attack...Cmdr Taco is said to be heading for the Mexican border at this hour...

    --
    Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!
  89. Linux Journal DoS by graemes · · Score: 1

    Maybe I'm being paranoid but is Sony using their rootkit to launch a DoS against Linux Journal?

  90. Buggy Whips by RacerZero · · Score: 1

    Rush Limbaugh likes to reference the metaphor of Buggy Whip makers in a world of Automobiles. I think this is a good metaphor to use here. The broadcast TV, Telephone and Cellular companies are very much like the Buggy Whip makers. If they are unable to adapt to the new fast world of Automobiles they will fail. The carriage makers made the transition just fine. They turned into the car manufactures. The current Telecommunications bill seems to seek to prop up the Buggy Whip makers (Telephone companies). But also remember other laws makes it very difficult for the Buggy Whip makers to make Automobiles. The 911 service is one of those things holding them back.

    If the law demands certain content from some (911) and not from others then the Net is not a level playing field. The Net must be preserved as a level playing field. The Telcos can not be forced to provide services that others don't.

    If you can reference Limbaugh to support the Ideas Doc puts forth you will go a long way with so-called conservatives.

  91. Reprint of the article... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The article in question has been reprinted here (and probably in a bunch of other places on the web):

    http://lists.cait.org/wws/arc/gio/2005-11/msg00090 .html

  92. Mod parent up! (some more) by Elrac · · Score: 1

    Dang, I had mod points yesterday but foolishly spent them.

    Malor is so right it hurts. I'll be sure to read the article linked in TFA, but in the meantime I recommend re-reading the parent.

    --
    When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called Rel
  93. Posting to Slashdot is a DOS attack by bgalbrecht · · Score: 1

    Linux Journal Is Currently Unavailable Due to a Denial of Service (DoS) Attack
    Sorry for any inconvenience.

  94. Blah blah fricking blah. by RomulusNR · · Score: 1

    All that blather, just to be told in the end to write my Congressman and give to the EFF. Well gee, thanks.

    Save your frigging breath (and my time) next time.

    --
    Terrorists can attack freedom, but only Congress can destroy it.
  95. Roman empire 2nd century by jbolden · · Score: 1

    Obviously the west isn't in a dark ages. You can make a fairly good case the Arab is in one that started around the 16th century and is getting much worse. However I think you are being too material in your definition of "best of all possible worlds".

    Let's take rome in the 2nd century

    1) An intellectual culture that is widespread and well read
    2) Strong public morality on issues like corruption, bravery, etc... And thus a leadership which were "great men" in a meaningful sense
    3) The christian cult hadn't gotten out of hand yet and ethics was an intellectual matter regarding public good not a question of faith based on virtually no knowledge of history and a poor understanding of their own holy books.
    4) A government that is genuinely interested in the public welfare

    And yes they had big problems like massive slavery but famine and plague were a thing of the past "never to return".

  96. We MUST Give Murder a Try by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    While detractors say there's only so much that murder can do to work towards the greater good, we must at least try. Those involved in this anti-citizen power shift should be murdered in cold blood. That'll send the right message down the spines of those greedy bastards grappling for control of the net.

    "A drive by shooting claimed the life of yet another internet carrier lobbyist in Washington today. That brings the total death count of those associated with internet privitization up to seventy-eight... for this month."

    Then those of us that are caught can just blame it on something we saw through the net. Are we beginning to see the possibilities?

  97. Re:Flamebait? by symbolic · · Score: 1

    I'm amused - this goes to show, still further, how much people are in denial with respect to the real problem and the real solution. That's usually the case with addictive behaviors.

  98. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  99. It's EXACTLY what happened to radio. by dpbsmith · · Score: 1

    Why are all the college stations down at the low end of the FM dial?

    Because it was the universities that did all the heavy lifting in creating what we know as "radio broadcasting." And, originally, just like the Net, it was non-commercial. The legal framework at the time said that the airwaves belong to the public and must be used to serve the public interest.

    Then the commercial interests came in and hijacked radio.

    Congress handed over the lion's share of spectrum commercial interests and tossed the universities a wee slice of spectrum that would be reserved for educational broadcasting.

    The FCC's job was originally _supposed_ to be preserving the airwaves for the public and policing frequencies to prevent interference, not worrying about exposed nipples in prime time.

    And, yes, there was a giant stockmarket bubble in which investors frantic to get in on the land rush bid up the stock of any company that had "radio" in its name...

  100. Words not Deeds? by jak.mang · · Score: 1

    If I understood it correctly, then the point of the essay was to change the way we talk about the Internet. We have to explain it to the courts and others as though it was a commons or a marketplace rather than a collection of pipes viewed as property of SBC and Verizon.

    The scenario described is possible and could have a bad effect on innovation and the economy in the US. Just look at how screwed up non-voice services are on cellular networks. It might not be as bad as Doc makes it out to be. Services that would have to pay too much would probably move offshore. Consumers outside of the US might pay less for these services. Innovation and GDP just shift away. The tech industry, including VCs would fight the innovation tax. Technologists would work around the existing pipes.

    A better analogy for the Internet is the interstate highway system. It was built by the government and can be used by anybody for carrying just about anything. It separates us from other potential super powers (ex. USSR, current China) in that we can make things anyplace and sell them anywhere else in the country. The contractors that built the interstates got paid, up front. They do not get to say what goods travels on them now or tax the value of those goods.

    This analogy may spoil some of the magic of the commons for some readers, but it shouldn't. Those readers are still free to be as creative as they like as long as nothing is blocking them.

  101. "Wifes"? Check your Statistics. by Famatra · · Score: 1

    "The great majority (90%+) of assaults are against one's spouse.
    The great majority (90%+) of battered wifes does NOT separate"

    I like how you state all these statistics, did you pull them out of your ass? In any event the issue is assuming that domestic violence is against women and women only:

    http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/sharp-rise-in- sydneys-domestic-violence/2005/10/27/1130367990858 .html
    >A surprising number of incidents involve male victims - outnumbering female >victims in cases were the victim is under 15 or over 39.

    The rates of physical violence against both sexes by either sex are closer to being approximately the same than not in many cases. Here is a a few quick links, you may want to look at the biblography provided to cross check the stats as one should do with any statistics:

    http://www.mensactivism.org/dv_flyers.shtml
    http://www.mensactivism.org/search.pl?topic=dv

  102. Then why hasn't there been a Cher Act? by tepples · · Score: 1

    The creation of new drugs takes longer and costs more than it did "back in the day".

    That doesn't explain why patents are file+20 years but copyrights are pub+95 years. Your argument would make sense only in the case of a significant patent term extension.

  103. I spy with my human eye... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well as a Christian you're aware of the phrase "reap what you sow'. Now all we need for society to do is make the connections between reaping and sowing, even those spans that are centuries in breadth. And pray we don't hit any "tipping points" in the process.

  104. You are missing the first line of my post by hummassa · · Score: 1
    so, I'll quote it for you:
    ** my feelings gathered in the two years I was a paralegal in a DA's office, and in the nine/ten years my wife (who is a DA) spent in prosecuting cases ::
    (the rest comes here)
    As a paralegal, and having a DA wife, and having lived the day-by-day routine in police precincts and courts of law, I'll assure you (by ad hominem argument only) that I am right. An enormously great part of the violence victims I saw:
    * were women
    * were battered by boyfriend/hubby
    * and would not press charges (necessary in this jurisdiction for the DA to prosecute the case).
    You can believe me or not. Your problem.
    --
    It's better to be the foot on the boot than the face on the pavement. ~~ tkx Kadin2048
    1. Re:You are missing the first line of my post by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you read the materials on the issue the numbers are equalizing as men are now more likely to exercise their right to press charges dispite the fact that there is a stigma for reporting women on men violence.

  105. Check your facts. by hummassa · · Score: 1

    In most jurisdictions (and, IIRC, in the US too) copyright law defines criminal penalties for copyright infringiment.

    In Brasil, copyright infringiment of computer programs (in particular) can land you in jail for six months to four years.

    --
    It's better to be the foot on the boot than the face on the pavement. ~~ tkx Kadin2048
  106. Ah, and another thing: by hummassa · · Score: 1

    No charges pressed, no statistics.

    --
    It's better to be the foot on the boot than the face on the pavement. ~~ tkx Kadin2048
  107. More Invention by LordMyren · · Score: 1

    The best way to counter tyranny is to provide more openness. Continue developing more open information solutions, invent new ways to connect people, generate more tools that future hackers will use to create their own new connections. As the cycle grows and progresses, the corporate suit's ability to take that all away shrinks. That is how a market works. On the other hand, if the mega corps provide everything the consumer needs, if they notice no difference in the sinister new net, they are free to take it all away from us.

  108. Slavery and Copyright by Audacious · · Score: 0, Troll

    I know some others have touched upon how slavery used to be (although "used to be" really is misleading since there are still people being bought and sold as slaves even today - see some of the various articles about women being bought and sold as slaves in America as well as other countries. And yes, they do get shut down but these trades do also seem to pop back up after a few years.).

    My take though is that copyright is more akin to slavery than monopoly. Not that it didn't use to be more like a monopoly - only that now it is more like slavery. In the article, it is talked about how Larry Lessig and John Ashcroft talked about copyright in terms of ownership versus rights. I believe that if Mr. Lessig had approached the entire copyright issue as slavery of the America people versus the needs of the copyright owners that, just as "rights" and "ownership" have certain connotations, the connotations of slavery would have thrown copyright into the evil aspect that the founding fathers saw it as and might have swayed the justices more in Mr. Lessig's favor.

    Ok, so why would anyone say copyright is like slavery? Well, it shackles us in that it restricts our usage of a given item. It forces rules and regulations upon us that otherwise would not exist. It impedes our ability to do as we please. And it punishes us even if we were unaware that we were doing something wrong in the first place. It can even force us to do things we would otherwise not want to do. It takes away our freedom. Can be used to destroy our ability to invent and create new items. (All of which is collectively known as the "Chill Factor".) Copyright, therefore, has come to mean evil, unscrupulousness, hoarding, bullying, and other evil things because we have let it become evil. What used to be a law to help protect the copyright owner has become a law used to inflict pain and suffering on others.

    The founding fathers set the number of years to be fourteen with a single extension of fourteen years. They set it to be that way because (as their writings say) copyright is an unbearable condition to the very foundations of American society. A form of slavery not to be kept in place but allowed to fall from the shoulders like a heavy burden is released after having to carry it for a long while. They knew that people detested having to give up any kind of freedom. Especially after having fought for it for so long and so hard. So they made it so the people of the United States would not have to carry this burden with them all of their lives. Only for a limited time. It wasn't until the founding fathers were all dead and gone that the merchants, like in biblical times, began to gnaw away at these foundations. Lesser people who came into offices of importance decided that money was worth more than the very people they had been voted into office to protect and help. Protecting, they said, meant increasing the duration of copyright. But protection for whom? Not the masses since copyright has nothing to do with the masses and everything to do with individuals. So for whom were the extensions for? That is right. Greedy merchants and greedy individuals who, once granted a copyright, fight tooth and nail to retain that copyright so they may inflict their wants and needs onto others. (Look at the recent Lego versus Mega Bloc court case where Lego, who's patents had all expired by 1988, attempted to force the Mega Bloc company to stop selling toys which looked like Legos.) This all or nothing attitude is the stumbling block to our society and like J.R.R Tolkien's poem about the One Ring. You could say:

    Eternity for copyrights.
    Eternity for patents.
    Eternity for all things mine.
    And nothing for the masses.
    In the land where the laws are made.
    One rule to gather it all, One rule to hoard it.
    One rule to covet it all, and make the laws that bind it.
    In the land where the laws are made.

    Our government is mandated against the creation of monopolies, kingdoms, and other forms of total control ye

    --
    Someone put a black hole in my pocket and now I'm broke. :-)
  109. Oh, I know by hummassa · · Score: 1
    AC:
    If you read the materials on the issue the numbers are equalizing as men are now more likely to exercise their right to press charges dispite the fact that there is a stigma for reporting women on men violence.
    I know that women of midlle-to-upper class, or maybe lower-class in a USofAn/EUan big city are now more likely to exercise their right. But I assure you, in smaller communities, other cultures (Latin America, Africa, some parts of Asia) and lower social classes what I stated is the rule.
    --
    It's better to be the foot on the boot than the face on the pavement. ~~ tkx Kadin2048