TiVo Files Patent For RFID Schema

JamesAlfaro wrote to mention an article on the site TechWeb, which reports that Tivo has filed a patent for an RFID-based preferences schema. From the article: "The multimedia mobile personalization system would have a remote control that recognizes the viewer's RFID tag closest to the PVR. The remote control identifies and notifies the multimedia device through the RFID chip in the person's clothing or body to tailor the media content to their preferences. The remote control device would identify and link the viewer to the system using an 'RFID tag that is attached to a key ring, necklace, watch, in his wallet, or even a sub dermal tag inserted somewhere in the user's body.'"

Comments

Massive technological overkill

[Ithika]

Because choosing preferences onscreen or by pressing a button on a remote control is so labour-intensive and laborious. It's a wonder mankind manages to use things as they are.

Re:Massive technological overkill

[ergo98]

Because choosing preferences onscreen or by pressing a button on a remote control is so labour-intensive and laborious. It's a wonder mankind manages to use things as they are.

"It appears that Tom has entered the room. Shall I switch to Channel 54 - HotTeenAnal?"

Re:Massive technological overkill

[slashedmydot]

We've survived thousands of years without tv, tv-remotes, radio, computers, the internet, (mobile) phones, electricity, soap, toilets, toiletpaper, shoes, penicillin and the list goes on and on and on..... so that stuff is all "Massive technological overkill" (if we'd follow your line of thought) because we can survive without it.

My point is: Your kind of argument is soooo lame, it is even lamer than TiVo's patent.

Re:Massive technological overkill

[Ithika]

No, you managed to completely miss my point. The current solution (the remote control) has no flaws which this system solves. Television, toilet paper, the internet are all inventions to solve problems; this is just use of technology because it exists. And, use where it complicates the situation. Why not just have a button on the remote marked "Dad's prefs", "Mum's prefs", "Johnny's prefs"? That way conflicts can be managed sensibly (by talking about who wants to watch what) rather than some priority system which the TiVo attributes to different RFIDs. Why do *you* think this system is *not* overkill?

Re:Massive technological overkill

[dwandy]

No time to press so many butto

Re:Massive technological overkill

[slashedmydot]

"Why do *you* think this system is *not* overkill?"

1. Security. I don't want my girlfriend to be able to change my preferences. I don't want visitors (kids and/or family) to be able to select my "super ultra hardcore porn channel".

2. Speed. When I grab the remote with RFID-scanner my tv instantly knows who I am. I don't have to go through a list of users.

Disclamer: I actually don't think RFID is the best solution for this 'problem'. I think face-recognition is way better.

Re:Massive technological overkill

[Foobar of Borg]

Parent was modded flamebait (as will this post, no doubt). I guess the truth hurts.

And for those of you who will get the Simpsons reference: The Tivo, The!

Re:Massive technological overkill

[slim]

[Disclaimer: I don't know anything about TiVo Series 2, what I sawy may be obsolete]

When I first got a TiVo, I hung around on some TiVo community messageboards. One of the boards solicited suggestions for new features, and "profiles for multiple users" was on the list of suggestions they'd seen plenty of times before, and didn't want to get again thanks.

It makes absolute sense to me for TiVo to support multiple profiles: if one person in the house loves soaps, and the other hates them, surely TiVo should be able to handle that duality of tastes? My guess is that TiVo never implemented the idea because they knew that MOST people would ignore the profile element. After all, the idea with TiVo is that if you like something, you hit "thumbs up", not check you're switched to the right profile, correct if required, then hit thumbs up. TiVo assumes you'll only use its features if the effort is minimal.

So I think they might be on the lookout for ways to implement profiles while adding as little effort overhead to the user as possible. By patenting this (unworkable IMHO) technology, they cement prior art for a variation on it using whatever more affordable, practical derivative of RFID comes along next.

Re:Massive technological overkill

[Your Pal Dave]

RRID for this does seem like overkill, but to be able to seamlessly select individual preferences would be a big selling point.

TiVo probably could make a lot more money selling personalized remotes. Each remote could be coded by something like a dipswitch in the battery compartment. This would make it possible, but somewhat inconvenient, to have personal prefs.

A lot of people would just buy additional remotes for all of their family members, and even faceplates like the ones used on cellphones. This leads us to step 3: PROFIT!!!

Talk about a crowded coffee table, though...

Re:Massive technological overkill

[jambarama]

What I want to know is what happens if two different people are both in the room with RFID?

Could you hide an RFID tag in someones living room that always goes to porn? (or MTV, which judging by the current quality of music may be more embarassing to be caught watching)

How about hijacking preferences, so the Tivo thinks Susy's preference is always the nature channel?

And if we are all walking around with RFID tags embedded in us, who else could track/find us?

Re:Massive technological overkill

[Midnight Thunder]

Detected multiple RFIDs, using first found: Levis Jean from Walmart
Action: Find anything related to Jeans and Walmart

Re:Massive technological overkill

[Anonymous Coward]

LMAO... +5 funny

Re:Massive technological overkill

[SilentOne]

Thumbprint recognition?

Re:Massive technological overkill

[Anonymous Coward]

"Fat Americans will eat this up! I mean really.... if there's something that costs $200 but keeps some fat, TV-watching lemming from burning 2 precious calories, they'll rush right out in their giant SUV's to buy it."

Flamebait ??? Your post must have been modded by some fat americans. ( I am a skinny american. ) The truth truly does hurt. I've seen my wife and kids look for the remote to turn off the tv. It's mostly out of habit but damn...I get funny looks when I walk over and turn it off or press the play button on the dvd player. People are lazy and thats the simple truth. Your post should be modded (Score:+10, The Damn Truth)

Re:Massive technological overkill

[Fishstick]

kind of reminds me of the seat,mirror,steering preferences thingy on my car. Sure is nice when the wife has been driving that I can push a button and everything goes back to where I had it set, but I'm not sure that would be improved any by a RFID solution. Seems like TiVo preferences would be in the same boat here.

Re:Massive technological overkill

[Ithika]

"I don't want my girlfriend to be able to change my preferences."

Then really you need password-protected preferences settings, not RFID recognition. The device doesn't detect the user's identity, but the serial number of an electronic tag. Your watch or necklace or whatever is easy to steal, so this is less secure than typing in a PIN on a remote to change prefs.

As the patent says, the preferences are stored local to the machine, not on the RFID tag. The tag only contains a serial number (cos that's cheap and cheerful). This thing provides no inherent security features.

"I don't want visitors (kids and/or family) to be able to select my "super ultra hardcore porn channel"."

See above about difference between identity of person and identity of tag. Also, tags are easy to scan and clone. I don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility to make a PDA pretend to be someone else's RFID tag. Once the software becomes available any schmo could do it.

The way I read it, the system describes a way to control your preferences. Thus, you can turn features on and off for yourself, but a new, unconfigured user would have access to everything. You can decide that you don't want your kids watching your porn channel, but it's their preferences that the information is stored in; they can easily change it (and back again) if they want.

Re:Massive technological overkill

[Big Diluth]

"That's odd, every time Bill enters the room, Will and Grace comes on. Hmmmm...."

It used to be TiVo might think you're gay. Now it out's you!

Re:Massive technological overkill

[G4Cube]

Prior art of this type goes back to Xerox PARC in the mid 90's. There you wore a badge that when you walked into a room your desktop was loaded onto an unused or released computer there. It was called Ub-Comp.

Re:Massive technological overkill

[Alpha_Traveller]

This brings new meaning to the concept of sticking an RFID tag inside someone's body.

Re:Massive technological overkill

[slashedmydot]

Sure, but there were humans thousands of years before 2800 BC.

Re:Massive technological overkill

[Anonymous Coward]

When the techno crap fries... everything around us won't work. Mean while.. the fork in your hand.. still does.

Re:Massive technological overkill

[instarx]

HA! Very funny. One of the few +5 Funny mods that truly deserves its mod points.

FRIST PSOT

[LordSnooty]

DUPE!!!!

Cor, that feels great, I've always wanted to do that.

Re:FRIST PSOT

[Anonymous Coward]

DUPE has filed a DUPE for a DUPE-based preferences DUPE. From the DUPE: "The multimedia DUPE personalization DUPE would have a remote DUPE that recognizes the viewer's DUPE tag closest to the DUPE. The remote DUPE identifies and notifies the multimedia DUPE through the RFID DUPE in the person's DUPE or DUPE to tailor the DUPE content to their DUPE. The remote control DUPE would identify and link the DUPE to the DUPE using an 'RFID DUPE that is attached to a key DUPE, DUPE, DUPE, in his DUPE, or even a sub dermal DUPE inserted somewhere in the user's DUPE.'"

Re:FRIST PSOT

[Anonymous Coward]

DUPE has DUPE a DUPE for a DUPE-based DUPE DUPE. From DUPE DUPE: "The multimedia DUPE personalization DUPE would DUPE a remote DUPE that DUPE the viewer's DUPE tag DUPE to the DUPE. The remote DUPE identifies and DUPE the multimedia DUPE through the RFID DUPE in DUPE person's DUPE or DUPE to DUPE the DUPE content DUPE their DUPE. The DUPE control DUPE would DUPE and DUPE the DUPE to the DUPE using an 'RFID DUPE that is DUPE to DUPE key DUPE, DUPE, DUPE, in his DUPE, or DUPE a DUPE dermal DUPE inserted DUPE in DUPE user's DUPE.'"

Ert, sub-dermal tag?

[petabyte]

even a sub dermal tag inserted somewhere in the user's body.

I'll be getting off the ride now thanks!! I know they want to cover that in their patent but it gives me the creeps.

Re:Ert, sub-dermal tag?

[dslauson]

For real!!! Is there anybody out there who would be willing to get a sub-dermal RFID chip so that their TiVo could identify them? I mean, my key ring is full, but I bet I could fit one more thing on there.

Re:Ert, sub-dermal tag?

[MoonBuggy]

There's a bar in spain that (optionally) uses subdermal RFIDs to pay for food and drinks. When someone arrives they link their credit card data to a particular tag and get it injected into their body, then it's just scanned whenever they paid for anything. The idea was to prevent against loss/theft from drunk students on holiday, I guess.

Re:Ert, sub-dermal tag?

[plover]

Umm, yeah, I suppose anyone with a body piercing or tattoo would be likely to go for this.

But I have a better idea. Those little fingerprint readers would be perfect for this. Y'know, like the ones used on the blackdog linux box or on the security mice. I mean you've got the remote in your hand, you're touching it with your fingertip, why not just read the finger that's holding the remote or pushing the button? No external hardware required.

Screw 'em, I think I'll patent this.

Re:Ert, sub-dermal tag?

[shawb]

I thought the point of this chip wasn't so much security, as there is no place to keep your money/credit cards in a skimpy thong. So they are trying to encourage skimpy thongs, which I would imagine would drum up more business.

prior art

[Anonymous Coward]

Search Lucent patents under RFID and Modulated BackScatter.

lame

[geekoid]

"The multimedia mobile personalization system would have a remote control that recognizes the viewer's RFID tag closest to the PVR."

with a system that uses a remote, why would you assume the person closest is the one whose preferences you need?

I find it humors(in a nervous laugh kind of way) that they assume we will all have rfid embedded in our cloths or person.

Re:lame

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd much rather it has a precedence list, or first come first serve.

Otherwise, your GF sits down next to you to watch the game, and all of a sudden it switches to desperate housewives.

Some people may want that, or even prefer it (best to not anger the wife).

Re:lame

[geekoid]

see, thats the second reason why god gave you a back of a hand.

Well...

[Poromenos1]

How long do you think it'll be before they track everyone with hypodermal RFID chips? At least we'll get some use out of it, like in this application.

Re:Well...

[voice_of_all_reason]

What do you think is really in those "vaccines" that are mandatory for every kid?

Re:Well...

[east coast]

How long do you think it'll be before they track everyone with hypodermal RFID chips?

What? That's old hat. Now they inject you with tiny men, like on Fantastic Voyage, and they speak words of wisdom when "the others" become mean and nasty...

They tried to tell me it was some kind of schizophrenia or something but I scoff at their "medical science". I know the great Cthulhu is just helping me do what's best for me.

Where did I put that chainsaw.... hmmmm....

Re:Well...

[petabyte]

Well, I'm already can be tracked in dozens of other ways already. My credit cards, bank withdraws, the metro fare card (RFID) in my wallet, security camera, my security badge for work, fingerprints, DNA. All of that of course assumes that someone is interested enough in me to bother tracking. I don't think most people care that much about me if it doesn't help them twart terrorism, or (to a much larger extent) make them money. Then again, maybe my tin foil^W^W electrostatic-bag hat isn't on tight enough ...

RFID's cost money. Pushing a button on the remote is far cheaper.

Re:Well...

[ichigo 2.0]

I don't think RFID chips are that small yet, injecting one into your bloodstream would be quite fatal. And subdermal implants would have a visible bump on your skin.

Re:Well...

[Anonymous Coward]

And subdermal implants would have a visible bump on your skin.

No, no they wouldn't. All of our pets are chipped and not even the vet knows if an animal is chipped or not unless he tries to read it (they're almost always between the shoulder blades).

Re:Well...

[Anonymous Writer]

There's always the suppository version.

Re:Well...

[Foobar of Borg]

That's why you should not only give your kids tin foil hats, but tin foil arm bands as well.

Re:Well...

[jacksonj04]

*Applauds common sense*

Unique IDs, national ID cards, RFID tags... they don't suddenly let people track you. I've just turned 18, and currently carry so many things which I can be traced with / be profiled on it's obscene. Phone, debit card, ID, drivers licence, BCU member card, Connexions card, student card and more. I have tens if not hundreds of different ID numbers and all I want is one bloody card to carry around instead of the usual 20.

Whilst privacy nuts may shout and scream about single ID, all it does is make life easier for 99.9% of the population without introducing anything else which can be tracked.

So, TiVo. Why are they using yet another bloody ID tag when they could just make it read something you already have? Fingerprint scanner on the remote, facemapping camera, anything which means I don't have another thing to carry around just to tell my TV who I am.

I remember reading about something like this

[LearnToSpell]

with Bill Gates's "new" house. (hah. You thought that was going to be a dupe joke, didn't you?) Anyway, he had/has a little tag you wear, and the TVs change as you move, only the closest phone rings, etc. Same thing? I don't know how far his "preferences" extended.

Re:I remember reading about something like this

[6031769]

Could be handy for his dual-boot PC. When Bill is the user it switches to XP, anyone else gets Linux/BSD.

I jest.

Slightly.

Re:I remember reading about something like this

[idunno2112]

There are some people who don't need RFID tags, as the world already revolves around them...

Re:I remember reading about something like this

[JrbM689]

It's the other way around, my friend, but when others are in the room, they get XP, while Bill gets Mac OS 10.4.3 Crax0r3d.

Re:I remember reading about something like this

[wpiman]

You can do this in your own house with a PC, an IR emitter, and this.

This patent is good

[alispguru]

Patenting the idea will discourage others from using it for this purpose. I like the idea of, say, having an RFID tag in your hospital bracelet, but this is just a way for advertisers to get their hooks even more deeply into us.

Just Overkill

[TubeSteak]

Do you know people who will spend inordinate amounts of time searching for a lost remote instead of just changing the channel by hand? :raises his hand:
I do

Re:Just Overkill

[ergo98]

Do you know people who will spend inordinate amounts of time searching for a lost remote instead of just changing the channel by hand? :raises his hand:

With hundreds of channel it really isn't convenient to use little up/down arrows on the television anymore - effectively the user interface is borked if you don't have the remote. Neither of my DVD players will allow me to play a DVD without the remotes (they have a play button, but no method of choosing items on the DVD menu).

Re:Just Overkill

[someone300]

What if they're thinking that it'll pay off in the long term to find the remote control now?

Re:Just Overkill

[plover]

If I paid $250 for a friggin' remote, you can bet I'd be crawling on my hands and knees looking for it.

Re:Just Overkill

[krakelohm]

Yes its stupid I agree, but on this subject... you cannot do anything with your series 2 tivo if you lose the remote control. There are some pretty lights on the front of the box, and thats about it. No buttons.

Re:Just Overkill

[Peaceful_Patriot]

"Do you know people who will spend inordinate amounts of time searching for a lost remote instead of just changing the channel by hand? :raises his hand"

This brings up an issue which has always bugged me: Why don't they put a 'page' button on the set so you can FIND the damned remote? Geeze. This seems like a no-brainer to me.

Re:Just Overkill

[utnow]

There are several televisions that do this already. If you want a quick solution there's a product available that you can stick to the back of the remote (it's fairly flat/non-obtrusive) that will beep at you if you either clap or push a 'page' button on the base-station (works well for keys too). I agree that it should just a part of every television remote tho...

http://www.keyringer.com/
http://www.sharperimageeurope.com/iu667.html
http://www.findonefindall.com/

finally...

http://www.magnavox.com/index.cfm?event=about (check 1993)

Re:Just Overkill

[Anonymous Coward]

Why don't they put a 'page' button on the set so you can FIND the damned remote? Geeze. This seems like a no-brainer to me.

I never know whether "no-brainer" means that no brain power is required to make the decision, or that no brain power was used to make a decision.

In this case, the first consideration is that there is a one-way communcation channel from a remote to the TV. To send a "page" signal back, you have to add a new transmitter/receiver pair. The remote->TV one is usually infrared, but that wouldn't work for a pager because the lost remote is likely not to have a clear line of sight to the TV. Radio works, but you have to consider interference, your neighbour's "page" button causing your remote to beep, etc. Ultrasound might also work.

Remotes are battery powered. They can sleep when not transmitting a command, but a receiver has to continually listen for a signal.

Many people purchase universal remotes, or replacements for the one that originally came with the TV. The "page" feature then becomes useless, unless your new remote also has a compatible receiver.

The main problem is cost. Consumer electronics are very price-sensitive, and the amount of additional circuitry needed to support this paging feature would be significant.

Re:Just Overkill

[Manchot]

Tivos have no buttons on them. You have to use the remote to operate it.

Re:Just Overkill

[back_pages]

I knew a guy who worked in the product development side of Phillips who had a home/custom-made one of these. It was just a black box with a red switch that sent whatever IR code was required to set off the beeper that was already included in the factory remote. He included one of these with the factory blemish TV he sold my ma.

I also got to play Phillips CD-based home entertainment/video game console that had IR (or RF?) wireless controllers with PS dual-shock style controllers (without the force feedback) and Atari-style dozens of buttons. The only game I distinctly recall was Siphon Filter.. and this was before the Playstation was released. I thought it was awesome, but it was an awkward gaming system. The lag in the controllers was low enough for TV menus or strategy and puzzle games, but too slow for action games.

Re:Just Overkill

[SeaFox]

Neither of my DVD players will allow me to play a DVD without the remotes (they have a play button, but no method of choosing items on the DVD menu).

That's what the Play button is for. Pushing it is the same as choosing "play movie" on the front menu. At least that's what happens on my DVD player.

Re:Just Overkill

[ergo98]

That's what the Play button is for. Pushing it is the same as choosing "play movie" on the front menu. At least that's what happens on my DVD player.

It does this on neither of my DVD players (a Pioneer and a Toshiba). On both that simply plays the initial DVD, but then it sits on the main menu where the play button does nothing (actually both of them put a "what are you? A dumbass? It is playing" icon on the screen when you press it at the menu).

Re:Just Overkill

[SeaFox]

Maybe it's not the play button that's doing it on mine then. Perhaps it's from me pushing the tray in instead of pushing the open/close button to have it retract. I seem to recall that being a "quick-start" feature of my DVD player. Or maybe I'm just imagining that since it's not recommended you push the tray back in my any DVD player maker usually. This is a cheap little silver player I bought at Wal-Mart. But it is progressive scan with component out...

I'm sorry...

[barfy]

Isn't this like patenting using paint to protect the outside of your house?

Recognizing an identity and reacting to it, is a primary function and obvious function of RFID. You know like using lightbulbs to illuminate your closet.

Re:I'm sorry...

[Lord Byron II]

I hold the patent on using lightbulbs to illuminate closets, thank you very much.

Re:I'm sorry...

[Zordak]

Isn't this like patenting using paint to protect the outside of your house?

Not really. It's more like a patent on using paint to protect your fridge or something. The fact that RFID tags are used for identification, and the fact that TV remotes can benefit from individualized preferences do not together make the idea "obvious" for patent purposes. There must be a documented motivation to combine the technologies, or the practice of combining them must be known to a person of ordinary skill in the relevant art. Patents aren't designed to just protect major scientific breakthroughs. They protect things like incremental improvements and integration of technologies, as long as you are the first one to think of doing it. That's by design. If you don't like it, call your congressperson and let him/her know (preferably with a large donation, at which point he/she will actually listen to you).

Or you could think for a few minutes, come up with some new idea of your own, like a car climate control system that adjusts different zones based on recorded preferences of persons in those zones as identified by their RFID tags, reduce it to practice (important step that people sometimes forget) and file your own patent. Of course, you can't use that idea since I thought it up, unless you reduce it to practice and you can prove that I abandoned my own effort to reduce it to practice. But you should be able to think up your own.

Re:I'm sorry...

[Nick_dm]

Being non-obvious/inventive is not the same as being new. There are many things that could be done with RFID that nobody has done yet, but that does not mean they all count as "inventive".

You claim that "There must be a documented motivation to combine the technologies, or the practice of combining them must be known to a person of ordinary skill in the relevant art." But the "person skilled in the art" clause in patent law, does not refer to an actual person who has done it before. It asks that if an imaginary "person skilled in the art" was given the same task, would they have been able to come up with the idea?

In this case was the idea was really inventive, or was it simply that no "person skilled in the art" had ever been asked to work on "personal video recorder (PVR) that recognizes viewer preferences" via a portable device "attached to a key ring, necklace, watch, in his wallet". So not "has anyone done this before" (that is the "new" clause), but "if I asked someone to invent something for this purpose, would this be an obvious approach?"

Re:I'm sorry...

[back_pages]

You claim that "There must be a documented motivation to combine the technologies, or the practice of combining them must be known to a person of ordinary skill in the relevant art." But the "person skilled in the art" clause in patent law, does not refer to an actual person who has done it before. It asks that if an imaginary "person skilled in the art" was given the same task, would they have been able to come up with the idea?

The original poster is 100% correct. No offense, but I have no clue where "would they have been able to come up with the idea" question has any base in 35 USC, 37 CFR, or the MPEP. If you have any citations, I'd love to see them. I assure you that this is not the operative question when patent examiners are rejecting your application.

I advise that you become familiar with the Manual of Patent Examining Procedure because the original poster is clearly familiar with it.

Here are two relevant portions of the MPEP regarding how to prove something is "obvious", MPEP 2143 and 2143.01.

MPEP 2143

MPEP 2143.01

You will find the original poster's comments are completely in line with the Manual of Patent Examining Procedure. With all due respect, comments and opinions that diverge from what the MPEP states are either a) suggestions to improve the patent system or b) simply irrelevant, depending on the context. In both cases, these comments would have no relation to the current US patent system as it exists.

It is my intention to be informative - I hope you won't take offense. If you have other questions about the MPEP or how the patent system works, I'd be happy to cite what I can.

Re:I'm sorry...

[Nick_dm]

Thanks for the links.

I was going from the top of 35 U.S.C. 103 Conditions for patentability; non-obvious subject matter.. Which I appear to have misinterpreted.

A patent may not be obtained though the invention is not identically disclosed or described as set forth in section 102 of this title, if the differences between the subject matter sought to be patented and the prior art are such that the subject matter as a whole would have been obvious at the time the invention was made to a person having ordinary skill in the art to which said subject matter pertains. Patentability shall not be negatived by the manner in which the invention was made.

To me that appears in line with what I said above, in particular "would have been obvious at the time", but obviously the methods used by the patent office disagree with me! I haven't read up on this in depth anyway, thanks for the clarification.

Re:I'm sorry...

[Nick_dm]

Just to explain, the bit that threw me was the "motivation" in "There must be a documented motivation to combine the technologies".

Perhaps not the best source for law, but a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Person_having_ordinar y_skill_in_the_art#The_Federal_Circuit">wikipedia article sugests that this is a fairly recent (last twenty years) development in Federal Circuit appeals, called the "suggestion test", which isn't really supported in section 103. Obviously it has now made its way into the official procedure of the USPTO though (which I hadn't looked at).

Re:I'm sorry...

[back_pages]

I was going from the top of [35 USC 103]

Of course that's the correct statute, but it's only a few paragraphs long. The case law and MPEP surrounding what 35 USC 103 actually means could be succinctly summarized in about 1000 pages. MPEP 2143-2144 is probably about 50 pages in print and barely scratches the surface of what is meant by "obvious".

The world would be a much simpler place if every citizen could read the statutes and understand what they mean. Unfortunately, it's just not so. The definition of "obvious" as created by 35 USC 103 has been argued back and forth for over 50 years.

Re:I'm sorry...

[back_pages]

Perhaps not the best source for law, but a wikipedia article sugests that this is a fairly recent (last twenty years) development in Federal Circuit appeals, called the "suggestion test", which isn't really supported in section 103.

That's true. The documented motivation requirement is, as I understand it, primarily a procedural requirement that safeguards the USPTO against the appearance of favoritism or bias. If CorpA submits a patent and the USPTO seemingly arbitrarily rules that anybody could have come up with that, while competition CorpB gets a (similar, slightly different, completely different) patent issued, time after time, it becomes highly suspect whether the USPTO - a Department of Commerce entity - is interfering in free trade.

The documented motivation requirement avoids this. Inventions aren't obvious because the USPTO doesn't feel like granting the patent; they're obvious because there is documented evidence that someone has suggested this solution to the problem. And on the other hand - if there isn't any documented motivation to modify the references, doesn't that pretty much define an act of invention (no matter how small)? (Answer: In the eyes of 35 USC, yes, that is "invention".)

Re:I'm sorry...

[Nick_dm]

Many thanks, it seemed a little odd at first to me, but that makes sense. Also, I always been a little confused that so many patents seemed to be granted more on "creative inovation" than "technological inovation", so this clears my understanding up a little.

IR bar code reader

[jhines]

I've already got bar code ID's for the grocery store, among others. A simple bar code reader, should be able to ID a person, via what ever tag they scan and hashing it down, and store/restore the settings based on that.

I don't need yet another dongle or id card to carry around. Devices that have an IR port for remote control it shouldn't be that hard to add the ability to scan a bar code.

Re:IR bar code reader

[Guysmiley777]

Bar code readers have a pretty limited range unless you're using serious lasers. And I'd prefer to not have IR lasers zapping me constantly while I watch TV.

Re:IR bar code reader

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah I carry a big dongle around and it always gets in the way. In the morning especially

Re:IR bar code reader

[Midnight Thunder]

And we the though that the Simpons intro with Maggie was just for a laugh - hmmm.

Re:IR bar code reader

[Lehk228]

umm... bar codes almost always use lasers, if not always i have never seen one that didn't

Re:IR bar code reader

[Guysmiley777]

Yeah, they do. But they are visible red, and low powered and short range. To have a laser powerful enough to scan a bar code from across the room, you would need a SERIOUS laser (see previous post, sans capitalization), and THAT is what I wouldn't want constantly scanning everything in front of it (including my eyes).

Use for targetting ads?

[HockeyPuck]

So if a company starts using RFID tags in their clothing http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4873013/ then it's POSSIBLE that the tivo remote control reads those RFID tags to then provide feedback to the TiVo box which then uplinks to the main network that you are wearing Levi Jeans and a corresponding ad appears on your TV...

Your remote control is now big brother...

Re:Use for targetting ads?

[Guysmiley777]

Oh, they wouldn't care about what product you're using. All they want is sell ads to the highest bidder. I suppose they could pit Levi and Wrangler into a bidding war over who gets to put denim on your butt...

Re:Use for targetting ads?

[confusedwiseman]

In that case I'll just keep a basket of Victoria's Secret stuff next to the TV.

Re:Use for targetting ads?

[AaronGTurner]

It would make more sense for it to scan your RFID, link it to your customer loyalty cards, determine what you normally buy, and then attempt to predict (much like Amazon does) what you might like to buy in future. Knowing that you already wear Levis means that there probably isn't much point trying to sell you something you already have.

So sort of like those cars...

[MosesJones]

That adjust the seats based on the the person whose key is being used? So if you share the car it automatically goes to your setting.

Or really this is just another technical version of "logging in" to a personalised service, just using RF-ID as the authentication device.

Hardly novel, hardly new, its just the same technology as ever put together in a VERY slightly different way. RF-ID is already used to do automatic authentication and "personalisation" in many places today.

Love that US Patent system. I'm going to patent a system that selects based on the person who most often holds the remote control when they are in the room using proximity both to the PVR and the remote control, so what if the kids sit in front of the TV, I'm on the Sofa with ultimate cosmic power... and I want it to stay that way.

Re:So sort of like those cars...

[cbreaker]

Yea, I agree, it's really not a big deal. I don't hate RFID, and I like being able to use it at places like work. I don't like the potential for abuse, and I think it's overkill to use it for a damned PVR, but hey, whatever.

As Slashdotted earlier:

[wild_berry]

Go to http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/11/22/15 55250, which talks about New Scientist's commentary about the same patent application.

Mooooooooommmmmmm !!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Johnny's sitting closer to ther Tivo than meeeeee !!

Re:Mooooooooommmmmmm !!!

[Anonymous Coward]

*** Knocks both their subdermal implants together ***

Re:Mooooooooommmmmmm !!!

[mobby_6kl]

Well now have more options available than previously:

-Wrap Johnny in tinfoil
-Lock him in a Faraday cage
-Microwave him
-Take away the tag (if it's externally attached to Johnny)
-Remove the tag (if it's not)

Tivo has no buttons on the STB

[Anonymous Coward]

The tivo had no buttons on the STB - not even a power switch! Lose the Remote and you've lost all functionality!

-sz

DUP

[bobcave]

DUPE DUPE

evil schemes

[Anonymous Coward]

first google and time warner, now tivo and RFID? is everyone going evil today?

oh, i forgot that google has already been half-evil for quite some time.

Obligatory ISR...

[Anonymous Coward]

In Soviet Russia, TiVo records you!!!

Re:Obligatory ISR...

[k1773re7f]

However, in this case, it seems most apropos. :-/

I wish I knew how to mod you up.

Recap:

[kryten_nl]

I want an RFID tag (Score:5, Funny)
by LilGuy (150110) on Tuesday November 22, @06:02PM (#14091831)
Embed me please! I want never again to have to manually pay for anything, prove my identity, or set my TiVo to my preferences. Thanks.
--

Ordering food (Score:5, Funny)
by nizo (81281) on Tuesday November 22, @06:28PM (#14092075)
Actually if they can have one that broadcasts food preferences (I hate onions and pickles) we might be on to something here. I wonder if it is worth some of my privacy to not have to pick off the onions and pickles because I always forget to ask the Wendy's cashier not to put them on? Pretty much applies to all my other food too; just forget adding onions or pickles please.
--

RFID + DRM (Score:4, Insightful)
by lenhap (717304) on Tuesday November 22, @06:08PM (#14091892)
Anyone else think of what would happen if this became a standard feature. Sure it may be nice to not have to touch a single button, but as soon as Hollywood can have a show DRM'd to a specific person rather than a specific machine, don't you think they would.

Tinfoil hats aside, Hollywood dictating per-person DRM doesn't seem to be too big of a jump for me. I certainly can't wait for the day that I can't watch a recorded show just because I wasn't the one to record it. Go tivo!
---

Does this mean that pr0n will just start popping (Score:4, Funny)
by digitaldc (879047) on Tuesday November 22, @06:44PM (#14092238)
...up in all different locations at the most inappropriate times?
--

This is terrible!! (Score:4, Interesting)
by dschuetz (10924) on Tuesday November 22, @06:12PM (#14091927)
This use of RFID tags will destroy my privacy! You just watch...overnight, we'll have a terrible Orwellian police state where we're all branded with the RFID tag of the beast on our foreheads!
---

And if multiple people are in the room?

[Mr. Cancelled]

I agree with the 1st comment: This is ridiculous for Tivo, or any other home entertainment device! Way to sign away your privacy, just to save yourself from having to push a button.

But it also brings up a good question... What if I have 3 or 4 people aprox. the same distance away from the box? For that matter, what if the person closest to the box isn't the person who should be deciding what to watch at that point in time?

But really, this is just another example of why I built my own PVR instead of going the Tivo route: They just don't seem to get what "I" want in a PVR. At the top of that list is that I don't want Tivo controlling what I watch, and what I can record (and they do both). Under that top item though are lots of other reasons as ridicuous as this idea... they just seem so out of touch with what consumers want, and instead of finding out, and tailoring their offerings to what consumers want, they kiss ass to the media companies, allowing them to dictate what Tivo users can and can't do/have.

Guys are screwed....

[Siberwulf]

"Dave, I'm telling your wife you watched 'Shaving Ryan's Privates' last night..."

This will NEVER actually happen...

[barc0001]

I've worked with RFID readers on projects before. For one that has a useful range, which is to say one that you don't have to rub the tag against physically, the reader will cost about 3x what a Tivo costs. Somehow I just can't see quadrupling the cost of the unit for this feature.

Re:This will NEVER actually happen...

[wpiman]

That is right- because the price of electronics has proven to be a constant throughout the past 20 years. Things never- ever- get easier to produce and cheaper with time.

Re:This will NEVER actually happen...

[barc0001]

It's not a chip that can be added for $10 in 5 years. By the time these things get cheap enough to be included in electronics as an afterthought, their patent will have expired.

Plus, economies of scale do not bode well for that. Let's take GPSs as an example since they're a similar technology, construction wise, although there are probably 10,000 GPS devices sold for every at range RFID reader. How much do handheld GPSs still cost, despite massive market penetration? Weren't people predicting they'd be fitting on a chip and in every DVD player for region control by 2006?

So yeah, not gonna happen. Not unless someone else comes up with a killer app for RFID readers that makes people want to make millions of readers per year.

DRM Implants

[Anonymous Coward]

Because watching or listening to something you didn't pay for, even at a friends house, is "stealing". We all knew it was coming to this, didn't we?

Come on...

[jackbird]

Is it me, or do the last 2 main page stories look they they came out of the Slashdot Story Generator?

I couldnt resist this but;...

[jskline]

Ok. This begs having these two things said.

1: You know this sort of thing was talked about in the bible right???!!!

2: There was a song back about 1970 by Zegar and Evans;... "In the year 2525"... Ain't gonna need no arms, ain't gonna need no hands... :-)

This just in...

[mymaxx]

GE patents RFID reader in lightbulb to read the user that entered the room and adjust the lighting according to preference.

Mod Parent Up

[weierstrass]

Patent that now!

I shall apply for a patent to...

[Anonymous Coward]

Detect anyone or anything comping into my house with an embedded RFID and ZAP IT. Kill it stone dead. I am not going to have this technology anywhere my home no matter what the like of TIVO, WalMart and the like say.
I'm in the process of building my own house. It is going to be a net power generator due to the solar panels and wind turbines I'm installing so I'm not a luddite by any means. I'm an ex Radio Systems Designer by the way.

RFID's are evil. The fridges that use this technology to tell you to get some stuff from the marker or even do the ordering for you are even worse.

The Real Reason

[slarrg]

Of course, the real reason Tivo wants to have viewers identified by RFID is so they can sell the data to the television networks for advertising tracking. They already do this with the their data. Remember the Janet Jackson superbowl incident was said by Tivo to be the most rewinds of any event because they track everything their users watch/record/rewind. The obvious "holy grail" is to track it to an individual person, not just to the box.

I don't watch TV

[Anonymous Coward]

So why would I care? Go out and have life!

I have felt a disturbance in the force.

[sparkeyjames]

It's as if the rustle of a million sheets of tin foil
cried out as one and all it said was hat's.

Re:Must be a parallel universe you live in

[Forbman]

Yep, if you have DirecTV, Dish or digital cable, because the boxes don't have number keypads to enter channel numbers directly.

Nielsen Media Research...

[cosmic_0x526179]

... must be doing cartwheels over this development. I worked for them almost 20 years ago. Back then they were trying to figure out how to do this. How to tell when a certain person was sitting in front of the TV (and what the TV was tuned to, which was the easier of the two). Kudos to Tivo.

The ID Monster?

[D4C5CE]

We've survived thousands of years without tv, tv-remotes, radio, computers, the internet, (mobile) phones, electricity, soap, toilets, toiletpaper, shoes, penicillin and the list goes on and on and on..... so that stuff is all "Massive technological overkill" (if we'd follow your line of thought) because we can survive without it.

A "massive technological overkill" is only that one step too far which shatters the achievements from a few thousand years of civilisation. Replacing remote controls by tagging everyone with transponder implants like cattle for the slaughter should therefore quite easily qualify as "massive technological overkill". Incidentally, in Forbidden Planet indeed it was The Id Monster which took 'em all out. Now how visionary is that for a 1956 movie?

Next thing you know, on unwrapping a DVD or your new DVR, it injects&infects you with a RFID chip and makes you a slave to the intruders taking over your life and your living room (once again, just turn on SciFi channel for a depiction - this time it's the biting black stones in Robin Cook's Invasion ;-)).

Re:The ID Monster?

[Busy]

-1 too many irrational emotional appeals

Even your use of bold font seems shocked, outraged, and over the top. I just can't take it seriously.

Sorry to everyone I was about to mod up, but it had to be said.

Diagrams

[Spammy McGriddle]

Patent diagrams of two TiVo scenarios, one for remote control and one for sharing shows in hotels, can be found here: http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2005-11/tivos-rfid-rem ote-control-patent/

Bah !

[Anonymous Coward]

Foiled again !

- Johnny

Revelation

[Weasel5053]

or even a sub dermal tag inserted somewhere in the user's body
Mark of the couch potato!

Boom Chicka Boom!

[rf600r]

I'm coming over to your house, jumping between you and your TV, and making porn come on. Funn-ay. Even better when you mom's there.

  Still no cure for cancer...

Privacy nuts

[LearnToSpell]

We don't shout and scream about single ID, we shout and scream about mandatory single ID. Go ahead, if you want it. Just don't make me get one.

Re: Recap!

[Cowboy Bill]

I wish I could give it a +1 Redundant :)

end of advertising (as we know it)?

[dwater]

Some have argued that this could provide useful data for advertising agencies - so they can move accurately target adds. True enough.

Equally true, IMO, is that they could tell just how many of us leave the room (toilet/coffee/etc) during the ads. This ability could have all sorts of implications. Do they then refuse to pay so much to the carriers since most people don't view the ads, thereby raising the price of cable TV? Do they make ads even more annoying, by making them shorter, but more frequent (maybe enough time to pee, but not poo)? Could they then sue you for not watching the ads, just like they do when you (automatically) skip them?

Already Done?

[Hyperhaplo]

Aldi sells a device which will lock your compurer when you move 5 feet away. Prior art?

Patent???

[skochak]

I have not seen the exact details of the patent and IANAL, but what they are doing here is not much more than what *is* supposed to be done with RDIF itself!!!! So how are they patentind it??? So now does it mean that no-one can use RFID in remote controls?? Next thing we know someone will come along and patent the usage of RFID tags for identifying objects... sheesh!

Star Trek beat them to it...

[Anonymous Coward]

...so, is anyone going to submit the Star Trek:Next Generation badge/communicator/locator/ID as prior art?