Singapore Blogger Spared Jail

afaik_ianal writes "A Singaporean blogger, who pled guilty to sedition charges last month for posting anti-Muslim remarks in his blog, has avoided a custodial sentence, and has been placed on 2 years probation instead. According to the article, the 17 year old student is the third person to be convicted under Singapore's sedition laws in October. Singapore, which is unconcerned by wide criticism of its record of press freedom, appears to have been stepping up efforts against bloggers in recent months."

Comments

At least...

[leviramsey]

...Singapore treats bloggers like they do "Real Journalists".

*sigh*

How does police know about the Internet?

[Anonymous Coward]

So who first told the police about the existence of the Internet, and why?

Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh the Slashdotters will just love the restricted press and restricted freedom angle of this but, a little education may help you understand that this is not all bad. In Singapore, it is not just bad to slam Islam, it is illegal to speak ill or provacatively of any religion. So it is illegal for Christians to flame Muslims and it is illegal for Muslims to flame Christian or Jews. The law requires that everyone "just get along" or STFU! This twat posted flames and the law nabbed him.

Call it oppression if you like but, you must acknowledge the fact that it makes for a more peaceful society.

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[Rosco P. Coltrane]

So it is illegal for Christians to flame Muslims and it is illegal for Muslims to flame Christian or Jews.

The problem is that one group of religious nutjobs takes flaming the others quite literally.

Also, I don't see why any of them should be spared criticism. I'm an atheist, and I'm always on the receiving end of some well-meaning advices to get me into religion, but for some reason we religion-less folks aren't allowed to criticize those who believe in fairy tales that involve some god or another...

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[radicalskeptic]

I am actually considering moving to Singapore, and read about this while I was researching what it is like. Singapore actually is kind of to me, an interesting experiment in censorship. On the one hand, as a liberty-loving American, I'm wary of a place where speaking your mind can get you thrown in jail. On the other hand, singapore has one of the lowest crime rates in the world, is one of the cleanest countries in the world, has a very uncorrupt government, and somehow manages to keep a lot of different ethnicities (Chinese, Malay, Indian, many more) together mostly peacefully--in the most densely populated country on the planet, no less. This makes me wonder how much of it is due to the strict laws regarding racism, censorship, and morality (a lot of movies are censored or banned, pornography and oral sex is illegal, etc).

Basically, I see the censorship/nanny state-sim, and I see the apparent economic and social success of the country, and I have to wonder how much they are related. And I wonder if I would give up some of my rights to live in a country that seems to be doing just fine without them.

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[rubycodez]

Large organized religions, especially Islam and Christianity, have been a curse to mankind, the cause of hundreds of millions of deaths and the worst cruelties, and continued poverty and ignorance. As an example of how brainwashed we are on the subject, point out how evil the nazis were and normal people agree; point out the Roman Catholic Church has murdered and persecuted more Jews than Hitler, and all of a sudden you get labelled as "intolerant". uh-huh....

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[Rosco P. Coltrane]

Call it oppression if you like but, you must acknowledge the fact that it makes for a more peaceful society.

Oh yeah, like that's gonna work. What happens when you suppress freedom of speech regarding religion, racism, nazism or whatever, is that racists and nazis and religious nuts all get to brew their little hatreds quietly to avoid the law, and one day it explodes without anybody seeing it coming.

Just look at France: a big majority of the (white) population is racist, as demonstrated by the last presidential election that gave 15% to the extreme right. Similarly, many arabs there are anti-french. Yet nobody openly speaks openly about these issues. The result is an extremely cloudy racial situation. In contrast, America lets its KKKs and White Powers talk freely, letting everybody witness what a stupid redneck is, and how stupid his ideas are, which actually helps prevent these ideas entering young or weak minds.

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[andrewa]

I know that I wasted my mod points by posting, but "bad to slam islam", that's gotta be a great title for a song....

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[mormop]

has a very uncorrupt government....

Members of the government not being collared for corruption could well be because they're good at hiding it. Also, in a country where you can cane, imprison or kill people for offences that would warrant a fine elsewhere you may find the press and media are too deeply involved with or too downright scared of whoever's doing the fiddling.

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[SpacePunk]

Yes, totalitarian governments are better than governments based on freedom.

Absulutely,

yup

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[rubycodez]

you're right, and I only used RCC as example. Got modded "troll" in less than five minutes too, proving my point. Note that I don't treat any person badly or even differently because of their religion, and I myself come from a background of a religion that has done evil things too. Most all of my friends and relatives are of various organized religions that are doing and historically have done very bad things. But I'm saying its important to have the right to point out the bad things organized religions have done and are doing; while not harming any person or inciting hate for any person.

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[melted]

>> [Singapore] has a very uncorrupt government

When there's strict censorship, how do you know? I bet if there was more censorship in the US, 99.9% of folks would think that GWB is a genius and all the rest of the world is ruled by evil tyrants with their WMD targeted squarely at Washington, DC. That, and no one would even know of evolution.

Why, I don't even have to say "if". Just remember the "commie" hysteria back in the day. You could ruin your career (and life) just by saying you're a communist. Or somebody else could, by saying the same about you.

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[Col. 2.7.0-default]

...has a very uncorrupt government...

They also like to hang you if you happen to like getting high.

Whilst bankrolling Burmese opium lords.

(Please check the facts before modding me down. Thanks.)

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[Neoprofin]

Flamebait? Saying that government oppression breads resentment and and polarized nation while open discussion allows people to choose for themselves is flamebait? Mentioing that that very oppression in France lead to an entire population of immigrants to France that have no interest in "being french" which leads to their alienation and very recently a multiple day long riot between the french and their minority population is flamebait? Free speach = good, oppression = bad.

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[gr84b8]

I'd like to see some actual numbers on their crime rate as I would be fucking astounded that a place where almost everything _IS_ illegal could actually have less crimes committed per year.

That's a good point, but unfortunately I don't think you'll ever see actual crime rate numbers - I've been to Singapore a couple of times and it *feels* like there is absolutely no crime. The folks I was working with, however, said it is impossible to know since the government also controls the media. Singapore tends to have the most positive news headlines I've ever seen - so even if there is crime, you would never know about it unless they choose to make an example of someone (like the caning example).

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[Khaed]

Yes because slashdot really loves the idea of quashing all anti-religious speech. Even if all religious bashing is illegal in Singapore, that's not acceptable to us, because we like the idea of the freedom to bitch about EVERYONE. As for a more peaceful society, maybe you need to educate yourself about the goings on around Singapore...

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[fish8719]

You're not necessarily intolerant, just ill-informed. Jews were killed during some of the crusades, but without church sanction. Most of the atrocities of that time, in fact, were the consequence of Europe being run by a bunch of more-or-less brutal warlords; the RCC, if anything, was a moderating influence that helped preserve literacy and civilization through the worst of the middle ages. (Whether it should have also sponsored a war to recapture Byzantium is debatable.)

Islam nowadays doesn't have a central authority like Rome--and, when it did, the caliphs weren't such lovely people--but it's fair to say that a lot its authorities do not agree with the crazies out there. As far as poverty and ignorance go, the Islamic Mediterranean was in many ways pretty advanced in both commerce and scholarship. But, yeah, they still oppressed women (more so than the average Christian community to the north).

Violence and poverty and death are human problems, not religious problems. Compare Actual Islam and Actual Christianity to, oh, say, Actual Communism and then tell me that belief in God is what makes us Bad.

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[drsquare]

Airstrip One was pretty peaceful as well.

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[m0rph3us0]

Athiests dont have religious beliefs. Thus people are able to critize our beliefs and we not theirs. i get this shit all the time, whenever some idiot says something ridiculous and then hides behind religion. Religion gets exempted all the time for their beliefis but athiests are never given the same benefit. Take for example Contenscious Objector status, you aren't allowed to object on a rational framework that killing is immoral, only a deeply held religious belief. Other great examples are bicycle helmet exemptions for sikhs. Or multiple wife exceptions for Muslim immigrants (in Canada). Religious exemptions just go to show how trivial and unimportant our laws are, basically saying if you believe in a fairy tale then you dont have to follow the law.

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[max born]

According to Transparency International Singapore ranks 7th in the list of the world's least corrupt governments. They use a set of 16 indices and international surveys to determine corruptability.

Number 1 least corrupt is Iceland. Last on the list is Chad. The US is 17th. Interesting thing about the US that bribing the government is not illegal.

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[CRCulver]

Take for example Contenscious Objector status, you aren't allowed to object on a rational framework that killing is immoral, only a deeply held religious belief

Speaking as one who asked for and received honourable discharge as a conscientious objector while serving in the United States Navy, and became very familiar with the regulations, you are simply wrong. Since a 1968 Supreme Court case, the military has not required that the objector present any religious beliefs, just a deeply held moral belief that killing is wrong. Nowadays due to stop-loss policies it's hard for anyone to leave the military as a CO, but several years ago when I left there were always successful COs who were atheists or agnostics. Look at MILPERSMAN (NAVPERS 15560 D).

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[Anonymous Coward]

Well no, actually. To Muslims and to politically correct idiots, to question Islam IS to insult Islam. Laws like this are designed to squash dissent, so that problems can be avoided in the short term but are magnified in the long term so that our children can deal with them instead of us.

If you knew anything about Islam, you'd know that to keep silent about Islam (which is very similar to Nazism, but more dangerous) is the worst form of societal suicide. It'll be too late to question Islam when they are in the majority and inflict slavery, forced circumcision, rape and subversion on the poor, unfortunate, pliant "kafirs" with whom they share society, as they have done so many times before over the last 1400 years.

You don't believe me? Then read the Qu'ran and Hadiths. It's all in there. They can be read as Muhammad's Mein Kampf.

In the area where I live, a curfew has been imposed by the local majority Muslim population so that any men venturing out after dark are subject to harrassment and any women are subject to molestation. The police can't do anything of course. That would be racist (even though the idiots in power haven't worked out that one cannot be racist against an ideology).

If only we had questioned Islam 40 years ago before allowing these people to settle here.

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[Skye16]

Where does one of these governments based on "freedom" exist?

The word Freedom implies total freedom. 100%. That's anarchy. A "government based on freedom" is a blatant contradiction in terms.

Governments can exist to promote some degree of some freedoms(s), and I assume that is what you meant. But stop with the trite soundbites of glorification, okay? The world is not black and white, and neither are governments. They're all just differing shades of grey.

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[Anonymous Coward]

you r wrong!

while I dont think that the government is 0% corrupt, they are indeed very clean. Everything in government practice is super stringent. Try doing business here with the government and you will know. There is no culture of corruption. Its a taboo there. They have very strict audits and check and balances. Even trying to buy gifts or giving a dinner treat to the government officials while doing business with them can be a sensitive issue and must be declared in writing.

Try doing business in China or Malaysian government and you'll know the difference. It's almost like a given. That is why they are highly regarded by the International community for efficiency and uncorrupt government.

Another reason y they can be so uncorrupted. I heard all their ministers are very highly paid. Much more than any senator or even GWB would get per year.

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[spxero]

Catholicism != Christianity

While you make a valid point about the RCC, you mention Christians in the same boat as Catholics. They are different, and interpret the same book a different way.

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[delong]

Interesting thing about the US that bribing the government is not illegal

Of course it is illegal. A bribe is an improper soliciting of a quid pro quo. Which is not the same thing as exercising one's freedom of speech and political association by contributing to the political campaign of a public official you agree with, and whose policies you wish to see enacted.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/ts_search.pl ?title=18&sec=201

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[Liam Slider]

Sorry, but I can't see a society that has laws making it a crime to express your opinion to be good in any way, shape, or form. Order at the expense of Liberty is Oppression.

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[Liam Slider]

"Those who give up liberty for the sake of security deserve neither liberty nor security." - Benjamin Franklin

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[salimma]

At least Singapore is even-handed about it: you'd be happy to know that conscientious objectors to military service there get jailed regardless of whether they raise a religious objection or not (normally applied to Jehovah's Witnesses).

Same rule applies in South Korea, I think. You cannot cite Buddhism to get out of the Army.

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[Anonymous Coward]

Many people of developed nations are used to idea that the finances of civil servants, such as politicians, are public information. If people aren't accountable, you can't enforce the law banning bribes, it's worth nothing.

That's why US public system is considered de facto bribed.

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[max born]

Thanks for the link. I concede bribe is perhaps too strong a word.

But there does seem to be a correlation between money contributed to politicains and laws that those politicians vote for that specifically benefit the contributors.

For example, between 1997 and 1998 Howard Coble accepted over $50,000 from the entertainment industry. He also introduced the DMCA to Congress. Conicidence?

If you follow the money you'll find similar patterns. I understand the free speech issues regarding restrictions on campaign financing. But one has to ask: Why are corpoarations giving money if not with the expectation that the politicians they contribute to will pass laws in their favor?

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[mordors9]

Why do I get the feeling this is one of the countries that the United Nations will put in charge if ICANN is taken over by the UN.

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[Yokaze]

> Whether it should have also sponsored a war to recapture Byzantium is debatable
Ah... so the crusades to "liberate" the Jerusalem have been okay?

> As far as poverty and ignorance go, the Islamic Mediterranean was in many ways pretty advanced in both commerce and scholarship.

Not only that, Judaism and non-roman-catholic christian sects faird a lot better in Al-Andalus than in the north.

> But, yeah, they still oppressed women (more so than the average Christian community to the north).

Really? What kind of rights did women have under Christian rule, which they did not have under Muslim rule? Ownership? Inheritance? Testimony?

> Violence and poverty and death are human problems, not religious problems

Well, what is religion, but a shape of human

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[Pig Hogger]

Oh the Slashdotters will just love the restricted press and restricted freedom angle of this but, a little education may help you understand that this is not all bad.

Orientals pretty much to be a bunch of terminal fuckheads when it comes to human rights.

The history of Asia is nothing but a bunch of tycoons taking over and running the majority of the people into slavery, all the while bickering amongst themselves. Without the Englightenment that touched Europe in the 18th century, there is absolutely no tradition of human rights, and everybody are considered peons that can be ordered to do anything at all.

Worse, the general philosophy of "destiny" is totally geared in having the masses accept their plight without any hope of improvement, so the peons passively accept being run-around.

Singapore is no different, despite it's apparent wealth and liberalism (only economic).

Until orientals learn that respect does not automatically come with authority but has to be earned, I'm afraid that they will continue to live under awfully abjectionable conditions.

I have lived along with orientals who immigrated in $NORTH_AMERICA, and most often than not I have been flamed for expressing my thought about the political process and many economic endeavours.

So it is illegal for Christians to flame Muslims and it is illegal for Muslims to flame Christian or Jews.

It is pretty much to do anything at all in Singapore.

The law requires that everyone "just get along" or STFU! This twat posted flames and the law nabbed him.

A bad law being applied does not make any more right.

Call it oppression if you like but, you must acknowledge the fact that it makes for a more peaceful society.

Until everything breaks loose once the peons have had it.

Why do you think Mao Tse-Tung was able to totally run over China (except Formosa - yes, this is a flame; Taïwan belongs to China, period; you don't split a nation into many countries)? The peons have had it at being screwed by the bourgeois and the various warlords. The devastation and suffering brought about by the communists in China could have been averted by a gradual transition to democracy, but the powers that were fought that tooth and nail.

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[Pig Hogger]

On the one hand, as a liberty-loving American, I'm wary of a place where speaking your mind can get you thrown in jail. On the other hand, singapore has one of the lowest crime rates in the world,

What was that old chesnut again, you know, the one about "those who are willing to give a little liberty for security deserve neither"???

and somehow manages to keep a lot of different ethnicities (Chinese, Malay, Indian, many more) together mostly peacefully--in the most densely populated country on the planet, no less.

With an iron fist.

Canada and the USA too somehow manage to keep a lot of different ethnicies peacefully, but without an iron fist.

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[randal23]

Check this out:

"Tough on drugs, soft on drug lords

[...] A leading opposition figure cites "the Singapore Government Investment Corporation's 1990s investment in the Myanmar Fund, controlled by Lo Hsing Han, one of Burma's most notorious drug lords, through his Asia World Company. Lo's son, Stephen Law, is married to a Singaporean and lives in Singapore."

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[macshit]

Singapore seems closest in spirit to a "benevolent monarchy" -- if you go along with the ruling family (in every way), things will be peachy, but if you don't ... well... your indictment will probably be quite legal.

[FWIW, my friend's sister-in-law married a Singaporean, and was initially entranced by the country (especially the "everybody's happy!" atmosphere), but ended up loathing it (perhaps for the same reason).]

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[rubycodez]

but without Church sanction

you seem to be forgetting about people who were burned at the stake throughout history by RC Church officials, including mass execution of jews.

belief in God
I didn't say belief in God was bad or makes us bad, using torture and murder against those with different beliefs is.

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[rubycodez]

Various protestant groups have also executed and tortured people for being some other flavor of Christianity, or other religion. And as an aside, for writing Catholicism != Christianity, either saying or refuting that would have gotten you killed, imprisoned or tortured by various "Christian" groups at various times and places. Nothing says Christian love and charity like sending people to hell, I guess.

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[FLEB]

Yes, but what do you think?

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[Yokaze]

... problems and their handling.

Usually, religion gives you simple moral rules. Don't kill (more than necessary), don't steal (from the wrong people), better keep a distance from those cultists , which like to eat other humans (with a long spear), don't use electric equipment under the shower (never). Often simple rules, which everyone in their right mind would follow and generally a good thing. But since they are simple, they usually don't do it, and have a long list of excemptions usually in the form of some annecdotal notes.

So, this codex is usually some large, inconsistent, cobbled together scripture, which is written in a language, which no one speaks in that form anymore and often relate to situations, which don't happen anymore. So, the whole thing is open to interpretation.

And here lies the problem. It claims to be the ultimate law, given by some infailable, omnipotent, omnipresent entitity (thank you, Star Trek, for that vocabulary). So, you can't discuss it. It is The Truth.

So, some people, or a even whole society, not only free themselves from a guilt of trespassing some common acceptable rule, like, say, not to kill, but make it also their Entities Name given obligation to kill as many people as possible.

> the RCC, if anything, was a moderating influence that helped preserve literacy and civilization through the worst of the middle ages.

Really? Ah, nothing goes above organised a witch-hunt... From what I know, most of the knowledge of the antique destroyed by christians as heretic was preserved under Muslim rule. Most of the knowledge, strangely enough, reimported during the crusades.
That is also where the "noble" men got the idea, that it might be a good idea to occasionally wash themselves, and learn to read and write, and have some people, which know mathematics and that there is more to building a strong building than a lot of stones (Hey, Renaissance, here we come).
But, I admit, that is a very simplified view.

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[Tremo]

Yeah right. Keep your mouth shut and toe the line or they'll rip your ass open with the cane at Chanji prison. Yeah, a real civilized place. No thanks.

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[Supurcell]

Also, in a country where you can cane, imprison or kill people for offences that would warrant a fine elsewhere...

But the reverse of that is also true: In a country where you are mearly given a fine for offences that would warrant a caning, imprisonment, or death elsewhere...

That's like telling your parents "but Bobby's parents didn't ground him." Just because one group thinks something is right, doesn't mean everybody else agrees.

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[jlarocco]

That's part of the problem with this. The Slashdot intro to the article makes it sound like the guy is a journalist. Journalists aren't supposed to be expressing their opinions. At least not decent journalists. They're supposed to be reporting on news in an unbiased way, leaving their opinions out of it, so people reading their reports can make their own decisions and form their own opinions.

It's pretty sad that anyone considers "bloggers" journalists.

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[theboogeyman]

Singapore as a whole has more religious diversity than US as a whole.

Religions of Singapore: 42% Buddhist, 15% Muslim, 14% Christian, 9% Taoist, 4% Hindu

This is compare to the US which is over 80% Chrisitan.

Also, Singapore needs tough laws to restrict speech because of the potential to incite race or religious riots. If a riot broke out in a US city, it won't affect the country much because it is one city (for example: LA). Singapore is a small city-state and if a riot broke out the whole country would grind to a halt (for example: Chinese-Malay race riots in the 1960s)

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[Gentlewhisper]

have u been to Singapore? how DO YOU KNOW EVERY_THING_IS_ILLEGAL???

Sure, at least chewing gum is a illegal to possess there too, which AFAIK if you are caught with some, you will be charged in court and possess a criminal record.

Good luck finding a decent job, if ever. Bad news travels fast in a small nation too.

Just don't use your liberty at other's expense and you are quite safe.

Similarly you are losing your own personal liberties for a CHANCE to protect that of the community. Not everyone will commit an offence even if it is not made illegal in law, but having it written out in ink and paper does deny many otherwise honest people of doing said acts.

They may also have weird laws but which country doesn't? One man's meat another man's poison. That's all I can say.

Glad you enjoyed your meat, personally I found my 20 years there to be poison, and I am glad to be out of there.

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[Gentlewhisper]

I'm curious, do you go around making racist speach? If not you have nothing to worry. You're being paranoid. There are millions of people going in and out of Singapore. I'm sure out of the millions in Singapore, there are thousands who will make some stupid racist comments. Yet you don't often hear of people getting caught for racist remarks. Unless u r that stupid to give a racist free speach in public area. But even if you so, I think you may not be charged with sedition Act but rather disruption of public order- that is if you indeed cause chaos.

If one goes around with racist remarks, he won't be welcomed anywhere anyway.

Just as an informative snippet, Singapore has no opposing political parties. The majority of the opposing politicians are probably in Australia right now as we speak, with warrants out for the arrest back home, and their life assets frozen on Singaporean soil.

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[Liam Slider]

It doesn't matter who he is, only that he published something which the government of his country is punishing him for publishing. That's wrong. It doesn't matter if he's not a "journalist" and is just a "blogger." It doesn't matter that he published opinion rather than facts (please, the idea of the objective news agency that reports nothing but the facts and does not sensationalise or editorialise is long, long dead....hell, I'm not sure that ever actually existed except as an ideal). What matters is that merely expressing your views in Singapore is dangerous, as it is in many countries in the world. I'm glad I don't live in such an evil place.

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[Tiro]

The truth is that while there is not bribery or the kind of corruption you would find in a place like Sierra Leone or Russia, but there is a lot of corruption that keeps the elite 1% in control.

If someone speaks out against the government and runs for parliament, the party that has run the place for the last 50 years sues for slander/libel and takes everything he owns. The person is also banned for running for office for a few years. Opposing the ruling party is like a peasant challenging a king, even if you are rich.

The judges are not exactly bribed, but they know how they are "expected" to rule in these cases, and the ruling party is all-powerful.

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[mordors9]

I guess because I am so ignorant that I think the internet should allow complete and unfettered access to information. I don't believe that any country (including the United States or any other entity) should be allowed to censor what is available. The free market place of ideas should be in place. Sorry that the liberty and freedom is so threatening to you and those of your ilk.

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[Anonymous Coward]

Censorship is not the focus of the Singapore "experiment." It is only part of the whole picture of a tightly-controlled system led by an "authoritarian" (I prefer the term "paternalistic") government.

It is difficult for most people in more "liberal" countries to imagine living under such heavy-handed rule. When you grow up with it, though, it really doesn't feel like much. Growing up in Singapore is like growing up in a large, crowded family in, say, the US. The government/parents make laws/rules that may seem strict to outsiders but really make for better living when faced with such diversity in a confined area. It's like enforcing a "lights out" time at night, a maximum time in the bathroom in the morning, assigning chores, etc. The laws are there to ensure the overall quality of life improves and there are not there for the benefit of the government or some corrupt officials. They are sensible laws that, while limiting, aren't really unreasonable to follow (mostly) and apply to most stuff that most regular people will encounter. I mean, how hard is it to understand and realize that vandalism and littering is bad, regardless of the country you are in?

There are certain restrictions which foreigners tend to point out, but most normal citizens will not actually encounter, freedom of speech being the main one. However, the laws governing freedom of speech are there for those who don't think before making comments with potentially wide-ranging effects. Comments that are critical for the purpose of inciting riotous and violent behavior are generally not the best way to open a discussion to any situation. I speak my mind and have never felt threatened by the law. There are several online forums for social discourse about Singapore and, despite the awareness that the government is monitoring such sites, no one there feels threatened to voice well-intentioned, well-written criticism. Sure, we do joke about being arrested, but nothing really happens. In Singapore, talk to any taxi driver or sit in any coffeeshop and one would hear complaints about laws, taxes, and general governmental stupidity. One would then realize that most citizens are not the least bit directly affected by this "lack" of freedom of speech. Yeah, the laws are kind of broad, but it really is hard to come up with something better. Many "democratic" countries have tried, too. As for us, we place our faith in a government that, thus far, has a good track record in fairness (justification for the track record follows).

It is admittedly hard to determine the direct effectiveness of such strict laws and whether they have been abused. The media is indeed very friendly towards government propaganda and agenda. One can only go by anecdotal evidence to determine how many people were imprisoned for opposing government rule and how much crime there is. Personally, I know of no one who was even arrested for voicing any opinion. Crime-wise personally, my 20+ years in Singapore is about as crime free as my 5 years in the US. In Singapore, I do not know any one who has been assaulted by a stranger, but here in the US, I can count a handful. For crime, I'd take Singapore.

And to the parent: there are other aspects to consider other than laws. I also value education and healthcare. I think even most Americans would agree that the education and healthcare system here in the US sucks. While Singapore's systems aren't the best in the world, they are definitely among the best in Asia. If I had to choose where to raise a family, these are things which are important to me, and Singapore would be among the short list of candidate countries.

No one can say for sure whether the laws in Singapore made it this good or that Singapore could have been better without these laws, not without a time machine. However, it is pretty nevertheless a good place to stay (even for a foreigner considering of migrating) and definitely a good place for business and research (The latter being supported by independent surveys.)

Someone considering on mi

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[kalidasa]

Educate yourself before commenting. Prior constraint is wrong even when one is trying to restrain hate speech, so long as no one is making threats or inciting violence.

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[PenguinBoyDave]

I'll be praying for you... (it is a joke...please take as intended.)

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[strikethree]

Speaking as one who asked for and received honourable discharge as a conscientious objector while serving in the United States Navy, and became very familiar with the regulations, you are simply wrong.

erm... I am curious as to why you joined the Navy (or any Armed Service) if you knew that you had moral (or otherwise) objections. Would you enlighten me please?

strike

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[LordLucless]

Large organized religions, especially Islam and Christianity, have been a curse to mankind, the cause of hundreds of millions of deaths and the worst cruelties, and continued poverty and ignorance.

I always hear this same response trotted out in every thread on religion. "Religion has caused the deaths of millions of people", "Religion has caused more wars than anything else", etc. And it always annoy me. Religion doesn't cause war any more than politics or economics causes war.

All wars are caused by one thing: people wanting power. Now that may be a good thing or a bad thing. It may be people wanting to have power over their own country (American War of Independance, numerous revolutions) or it may be people wanting to exert their power over other countries (World War II, Vietnam, etc). They may be fighting for political power, economic power, or spiritual power (that is, the ability to control people's spirituality, not some cosmic force).

Religion, especially organized religion, is involved in so much conflict not because there is something inextricably warlike about religion, but because it represents a seat of power. Whoever is the head of a religion has a large amount of power. Therefore, people who want power fight and squabble over it, and the person who already has it fights to maintain it and expand it. Exactly the same as in politics.

So what I'm saying is basically that the problem isn't religion, the problem is that at certain times, we've let power-mongering gits be in charge of it. If the dominant force during the medievel period had been secular instead of religious, you would probably have had the same things occuring, because the same people who fought over control of the church would have fought over control of the monarchy instead. The crusades would still have happened, just instead of being "kill the heathens", it would have been "kill the foreign devils".

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[shintaro]

AFAIK if you are caught with some, you will be charged in court and possess a criminal record.

You'd be wrong. It is not illegal to possess chewing gum. FUD rules huh?

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[ademaskoo]

What about the scientific censorship of the RCC? If it weren't for the mode of thinking started by Aristotle and perpetuated by the church, humanity would surely be to the stars by now.

You say that your belief in God does not harm humanity, yet society faces the same breed of scientific censorship today. Stem cell research, if allowed to thrive outside of the arbitrary moral code set by the religious right and perpetuated by our democratic mode of government, we would surely have the cures to many physical and mental ailments.

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[mordors9]

I agree lets look at reality and history. The internet currently operates without any censorship at all. Anyone can say anything they want to. The United States does absolutely nothing to prevent you from posting whatever you would want that might be critical of them. THe internet is full of ideas hostile to the US and its people and culture. Even on Slashdot there is a steady stream of anti-US and anti-Bush comments. Much of it is even demonstrably false. Yet they do nothing to try to stop it.

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[eric_ykchan]

As far as I know, oral sex is not illegal, if it is a foreplay of having sex which will make babies.

The birth rate is decreasing as more people are getting higher education and not willing to have babies. Thus the government thinks of many methods to increase the birth rate. E.g. giving tax reduction for having more children, and even controlling how you have sex.

In China, they do lock you up (and beat you) without any trial. In Singapore, they do sue you and put you in jail, or simply kick you out of the country. But what is the different?

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[A1kmm]

> Athiests dont have religious beliefs.
Atheists are people who believe religiously and on faith that there is no god. That is a religious belief.
> Thus people are able to critize our beliefs and we not theirs.
I suspect that the atheists in the .sg authorities might prosecute those who insult atheists(as opposed to genuine evangelism).
> i get this shit all the time, whenever some idiot says something ridiculous and then hides
> behind religion.
and then gets criticised(except in .sg) by people who don't share that belief. Whats wrong with that?
> Religion gets exempted all the time for their beliefis(sic) but athiests(sic) are never
> given the same benefit.
Not in much of the world these days. In .nz, a couple was recently found guilty of "Failing to provide the necessities of life" after praying for one of their children and noticing an improvement(and then the child suddenly died. The prosecution made a big deal about how they prayed for the child, despite evidence that a community nurse agreed the child had improved). At the same time, homosexual couples are now allowed to get married(it may be called a civil union, but the government is just playing name games) in public because a few atheists think it is right.
> Take for example Contenscious(sic) Objector status, you aren't allowed to object on a
> rational framework that killing is immoral, only a deeply held religious belief.
I agree that this is bad, but that is more to do with forcing people to fight a government's cruel war rather than anything to do with religion.
> Other great examples are bicycle helmet exemptions for sikhs. Or multiple wife exceptions
> for Muslim immigrants (in Canada).
Marriage is a covenant before God, not before the state, so perhaps it would be better if the state got out of the marriage business altogether.

As for the bicycle helmet example, it is a case of the government staying out of the decision of what is more injurious to ones wellbeing(physical, spiritual). I think it is better than the government making a judgement on this. Of course, if you can present evidence to the government that bicycle helmets are injurious to you in some significant and tangible way, perhaps they will grant you an exception too.
> Religious exemptions just go to show how trivial and unimportant our laws are,
> basically saying if you believe in a fairy tale then you dont have to follow the law.
No, they let the government avoid making judgement on the value of religious beliefs, and so allow for separation of the church and state. Religious exemptions do not generally allow one to substantially infringe on the rights of others, e.g. you don't get an exemption to anti-terror laws because you believe that carrying out 'Jihad' is the sixth pillar of your religion, and you don't get to blow cannabis smoke into peoples faces because you are a Rastafarian.

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[Aurisor]

The word freedom does not "imply total freedom." "Freedom" and "total freedom" are different concepts, most notably due to the presence of "total" in front of "freedom" in the second one.

"A government based on freedom" is one like the United States (at least in theory), which believes that its fundamental purpose is to safeguard freedoms, rather than to grant it. This is a paradigm shift from a lot of other political beliefs which hold that the government grants freedoms to its citizens.

Look, there are a lot of things in its constitution that the United States does not live up to, but there's a very, very real difference between the principles outlined in the Constitution and Declaration of Independence and Anarchy.

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[eric_ykchan]

unnatural sex, interesting

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[The Cydonian]

Ironically enough, though, the Army apparently recognises the religion and race of its Servicemen. Muslims (I don't know if it is 'Malay' only), for instance, aren't put in some forward positions, as a matter of policy.

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[The Cydonian]

The way I see it, it's less of a censorship thing out here, and more of legalising good taste.

For instance, while there's exactly one local, highly censored, government-oriented, 'mainstream' newspaper published here, you can, as a matter of fact, get most international newspapers if you search hard enough. One rather unfortunate irony being that all local magazines are of the fluffy kind (Maxim Singapore, FHM Singapore etc); you'd actually have to buy international news-magazines for current news and analysis. In essence, you can get international news even outside the Internet.

Problems come when you start discussing Singaporean affairs. Open criticism of the government is governed by the so-called OB (Out of Bound) Markers; as long as your discussion falls within these, government-defined, but wholly vague, boundaries, the government doesn't mind with what you say. The moment you step out of this comfort zone (a local analyst compared it to being inside an air-conditioned room), and say, analyse Singapore's exact GDP growth figures last quarter, the government cracks down upon you hard. The trick, apparently, is to mouth your concerns in semi-legitimate, but wholly vague, sentences, and to be sure, the local newspaper is full of such columns and letters lately. Which is why I've come to believe that the Singaporean attitude towards censorship is more or less governed by taste now; as long as you limit yourself by not directly pointing fingers (or economic figures, apparently, those are official secrets), and do it in a polite, non-sarcastic, academically detached sort of a way, you're cool.

As for Singapore being uncorrupt, well, I suppose it's just me being cynical, but trust me, there's no place in the world where things can't be twisted for a price. Just that, you'd probably have to tap in real high; unlike most other countries in the region, you don't really have to go out of your way to get "normal" things done. But if you are, say, an international bank, and have found a certain white-collar crime committed in your name, the government can work out an exit plan for you, to the point that it can find scapegoats and stuff to keep you and your money in the economy, as long as you promise to approach it before the international media finds out about it.

Just to end this rant by stroking bi-partisan flames, ;-), was rather interesting to hear Singapore's first PM, Lee Kuan Yew, praise George W Bush as an example of effective leader. Just to tell you where gov.sg falls in an American ideological spectrum, although I should menion that the ruling party, the PAP has been famously non-ideological for most of its history; for instance, we've got a world-class public healthcare system, but it is not entirely subsidised.

(Singapore resident for five years now)

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[jlarocco]

(please, the idea of the objective news agency that reports nothing but the facts and does not sensationalise or editorialise is long, long dead....hell, I'm not sure that ever actually existed except as an ideal)

Unbiased journalism is an ideal. No article can ever be totally unbiased. But a good journalist is supposed to make it as unbiased as they can. Are you proposing we just say "Fuck it" and let everything pass as journalism?

What matters is that merely expressing your views in Singapore is dangerous, as it is in many countries in the world. I'm glad I don't live in such an evil place.

Singapore is such an evil place, they've managed to have a thriving free market, become one of the richest countries in the world, have one of the least corrupt governments in the world, and have one of the lowest crime rates in the world. How evil.

It's not illegal to express yourself in Singapore, but it is illegal for the media to say whatever it wants. The two things aren't the same. For example, in Singapore, it's illegal to go on tv, in the newspaper, and apparently on a blog, and publish racist material, although it's not illegal to be racist.

Reference

Just because some country is a little different than wherever you live doesn't make it "evil".

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[Liam Slider]

Are you proposing we just say "Fuck it" and let everything pass as journalism?

I'm saying that journalism, whatever anyone judges it to be, has nothing to do with the basic right to freedom of the press.

Singapore is such an evil place, they've managed to have a thriving free market, become one of the richest countries in the world, have one of the least corrupt governments in the world, and have one of the lowest crime rates in the world. How evil.

Free market yes, and that's absolutely wonderful....but they need a free society to go with it. And they do not have that. Instead, it's one of the most restrictive societies in the world. As for the "one of the least corrupt governments"...how would we know, with the Press censored? Same with the crime rate...how do we know for sure, the Press is censored? At the height of the power of the Soviet Union everything that came out of their said they had no crime, no poverty, no homelessness...of course what the truth was happened to be that the official policy was that there was no crime, no poverty, no homelessness...it still existed, the government merely said it did and due to a censored press nobody was allowed to say any different.

It's not illegal to express yourself in Singapore, but it is illegal for the media to say whatever it wants. The two things aren't the same.

Freedom of the Press is an individual right, it's a right I possess...it's not just a right journalists possess. It means "freedom to publish" not "freedom to be a reporter." It is a basic, fundamental right. In that country, that right is being trampled on. Trampling on people's rights is evil.

Just because some country is a little different than wherever you live doesn't make it "evil"

No, of course not. It's when a country violates it's citizen's basic civil liberties that it crosses the line into evil. Just because Singapore is an orderly society, does not make it a good society. It most certainly doesn't make it a free society.

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[initialE]

It occurs to me that you americans have never had the chance to see the results of a 20, 30 year structural economic plan come to fruition. Simply because of the fractious nature of the bipartisan system, every time the government changes hands, there's people to tear down everything the previous government tried to set up. I'd go so far as to say that no president would ever design something w/o rewards to be reaped within 4 years.
I'm not saying that a 1-party government is all that hot, it's just that it's something to think about. How do you expect things to get better if you don't allow time for it?

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[salimma]

Funny that. They also get to avoid getting proselytized to at the overly-proselytizing Anglo-Chinese School there. It seems that under Singaporean law some minorities are more equal than others (and this is not to disparage, I wish I could have skipped the twice-a-week sermons).

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[The Cydonian]

Heh, that's true; from experience, the easiest way to break free of a chasing evangelist is to tell him that you're a Muslim!

I think I should try with the FSM one of these days.

Re:Educate Yourself Before Commenting

[chrischoo]

The last time that someone was thrown in jail for political reasons was almost 20 years ago. I don't think that Singaporeans at large are going to be very happy if someone is thrown into jail for such reasons again anytime soon, so it's fairly safe to speak your mind as long as you can back it up (with cash preferably) *grin* In terms of censorship, things are really loosening up. Some shows that would have been banned outright 10 years ago are making their way into Singapore with under-18 ratings. Basically society is starting to become more open, but again this is largely due to the government acknowledging that they can't remain close minded while everybody is out there making big bucks in this knowledge-based economy. It's interesting to note that you find our lack of certain freedoms very attractive. I've seen a number of Westerners locally as well who think the same way and are willing to give up some of their "rights" in return for a good life.

Caning!

[mister_llah]

Hey, come on, that American guy who messed with those cars or whatever got CANED...

At least CANE the guy and release the video on the web...

[preferably cane him to death and release the video as a warning to others, but whatever....]

All hail Europe!

[Nichotin]

It is a good thing that something similar to this never will happen in Europe!

Re:All hail Europe!

[saforrest]

Really I don't know what to think because showing a nipple is like the apacolypse happening but when somebody expresses hate remarks against some people or says that they are a big supporter of gassing jews it's OK. Give me a fucking break.

Who was it who both agreed with the anti-Janet Jackson backlash and also promotes free speech for, among others, hate groups? I can think of mainstream groups who would support one of those two, but not both.

Re:All hail Europe!

[Seumas]

Perhaps not. But it's at least an expression of complete ignorance on a level that pars with creationism is scientific theory.

Re:All hail Europe!

[dancingmad]

God bless America where this will never happen!

Re:All hail Europe!

[mousse-man]

You see, freedom's like this - you can purchase it. Or much easier, you can purchase politicians who will enact laws against some sorts of freedoms. Thrivel against Jews - go to Saudi Arabia. However, you can't speak against moslems there. Try to speak up against followers of the Religion of Peace - do this in Europe, or preferably America (speaking up against muslims can get you killed in Europe, like Theo Van Gogh or Pim Fortuyn (who didn't get killed by a follower of the RoP, but by a nutcase inspired by them)).

However, it is preferably to have complete freedom of speech, not just so-called 'freedom of speach'. In a true free democracy with equal access to information, people should be able to debunk myths, especially in today's information society.

In Singapore, the situation there is a bit different, though. That island's not known to be very large. They have a real multi-ethnic society over there. They've had racial/religious riots in the sixties. Somehow, they kept that problem at bay, and to everybody's surprise, it has stayed that way. You can go to church, or to a mosque, and not get bombed on the way to it. You don't have to be afraid that your christian children get beheaded like in Indonesia.

No, I don't love the way they did it. Yes, I think some of the things they do is great, like caning these dorks that repetively commit grave traffic felonies (IMO 1xRattan should happen after the first time as warning - this would encourage even tourists to follow the letter of the traffic law), or cracking down on drug crime. Keeping the place clean. And, yes, you can even buy alcohol over there (unlike Brunei). If I have to chose between a muslim hellhole, and Singapore, the latter will win out. But perfection isn't attained with just these two choices.

As stated before me, Singapore is a fine country.

If one wants more liberties, there's still the US. And no, I frankly don't need to go there, as liberty over there is relative as well. Electoral fraud? Probably true. Governments using tax money for propaganda? I don't know a democracy where that doesn't exist. Liberal gun laws? Liberal drug laws? Being able to engage in sexual practices that are not fit for human reproduction? There are better countries for this.

So the only option is to occupy some sparsely populated island and turn it into a new nation. Maybe Slashdottia. Get a few ICBMs in order to have some means against the international schoolyard bullies, though.

Re:All hail Europe!

[henni16]

Just wanted to add that the convicted nazi and self-claimed "historian" is the former director of the IHR (source for the parents link).
And "entrapment"? Give me a break:
Why does someone go to "discuss" his hate speech with a public prosecutor?
You know, someone who doesn't make the laws but might be required to enforce their violations if you cite your bullshit at your "discussion" with him?
Sounds more like attention whoring with intended public political martyrdom to me.

BTW. The verdict (still) isn't without controversy in Germany because of the free speech/censoring angle of "can you legally be prosecuted if you upload your content to a foreign server" and whether jail is the wrong kind of punishment.
Also, for me there is a difference between some 17 year old blogger and a guy trying to rewrite history for decades.
(Oh, and to address the "All Hail Europe": does the name Dimitry Sklyarov ring a bell?)

Re:All hail Europe!

[k98sven]

Great source you've got there, nazi scum.

(They're holocaust denyers. See also their wikipedia entry)

Re:All hail Europe!

[shinma]

From the point of view of someone who has family members tattooed with concentration camp numbers, it is hard to separate emotion from this subject.

The amount of evidence that must be discarded as "fake" to revise the Holocaust out of existence is immense. Photos, eye-witness accounts from various soldiers, both Axis and Allied, survivor stories by Jews, Poles, Gays, etc., film, and the mass graves of executed prisoners discovered. The physical evidence of corpses disposed of in gas chambers.

To ignore the evidence, or worse, to suggest that the victims (or their decendants) are making it up is, whether you want to accept it or not, an act of belittlement and ridicule.

This is the same sort of mindset that suggests a rape victim is making it up for the "attention" or if they do acknowledge that a violation occured, dismisses it because "she wanted it," or "was asking for it, I mean, did you see how she was dressed?"

Questioning the accuracy of a source is one thing, but really, ignoring the vast amount of evidence that there was a Holocaust and that the Nazis commited genocide (a word INVENTED to describe their actions. It didn't exist until WWII) is not intellectual rigor, it is intentional intellectual blindness.

Re:All hail Europe!

[FLEB]

I'm not sure theres anything legal anyone could do about simply expressing pro Al Qaeda views, even with the Patriot act.

It's extralegal, but there are things such as overbearing tax audits (although I'm pretty sure this has been ruled illegal), unwarranted investigations (making sure your boss and associates know you're "under investigation", of course), trumping-up unrelated charges.

Re:All hail Europe!

[shinma]

And this I'll agree with.

I meant to, and forgot, to make that clear in my original post. I don't agree with either the Singaporean blogger or the "historian" in your post, but I don't think either of them should have been arrested for their remarks or beliefs.

It's much the same as Fred Phelps and the others at Westboro Baptist Church. I despise them and pretty much everything they stand for. I wish they didn't exist, but I'm glad I live in a country where they can say those things without going to jail. Freedom of Speech means freedom for everyone, not just the people you agree with.

Re:All hail Europe!

[henni16]

Actually, I don't like the censoring of speech and didn't mean that one should be punished and one shouldn't.
But for me there are still differences:
One guy questions a popular religion. Another guy questions a popular view of history.
In both cases, they are punished for questioning a popular view.


FOR ME, on one side is a 17 yo dumbass "posting inflammatory remarks about Malay Muslims" , on the other a whole political organization dedicated to push their "revised" view of history and hate, working with other racist groups and parties whose supporters/members like to beat up, torture and kill foreigners.(*)

FOR ME religion is a point of view a personal belief.
For the "view of history": it isn't that far back in time!
We are not (YET!) talking about what happend in $WAR 3000 years ago. You are still able to talk to concentration camp survivors (I did) , guards, SS troopers,
authenticate their diaries, can find photos and movies, German government documents, mass graves, you name it.

I am not in favor of the criminal offences, but I am definitely in favor of stopping the propagation of that crap as long as it isn't a matter of "One wrote X, one wrote Y. We will never know what happened. Let's teach both.".
So FOR ME, there is a difference in those cases.


(*) I know it's not really the same as there is the whole separation of church and state angle,
but it still reminds me of the evolution/creationism debate in the US:
talk about ID as much a you want in your blog, but don't try to force it into text books.
(Especially if there are still people and media around that can testify the species evolving ;-))

Re:All hail Europe!

[josh82]

"It is a good thing that something similar to this never will happen in Europe!"

At least in Europe (though I may be uninformed), they don't withhold evidence against the man in a secret trial and hold him on a so-called "security certificate", claiming the holocaust-denier to be as much of a threat to national security as a terrorist, and then deport him to his home country for something that I would presume isn't even an extraditable crime! I mean, hate speech is bad, but is it bad enough to deport someone for it? [http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/zundel/%5D

That'd have to be one fucked-up authoritarian country to suspend due process like that. You'd think they could have at least had an open trial, as in most first-world countries. The US, you ask? Nope! Blame Canada, this time.

And to think I used to think Canada was a generally free and open country. You know, one that has due process in its court system.

I'd best keep my mouth shut, though -- they might start thinking that it is hate speech to claim that deporting and suspending the due process rights of a hate speaker might not have been the most appropriate thing to do. -- Throw him in jail, or perhaps in a nuthouse. But consider him a much of a threat as a terrorist, and try him in secret? I don't think so.*

* Disclaimer: I share no personal beliefs with the accused, for which he is being prosecuted. I do, however, hold the belief that no action is too heinous for it not to be held in an open, transparent court, in which the defendant is allowed to both know and challenge the evidence against him. If the evidence is truly damning enough to consider a man as dangerous as a terrorist, any properly functioning court of law will justly convict the defendant and give him an appropriate sentence.

Re:All hail Europe!

[planetoid]

"...John Bennett, president of the Australian Civil Liberties Union (ACLU)..."

Oh, come on... copy-cats :/

Singapore - not really free...

[Anonymous Coward]

Being from Singapore myself I can say that Singapore never has been free - it makes a superficial attempt at looking like a democracy, but thats just to appease outsiders. Things like other political parties aren't legal... and people have been known to disappear if they hold the wrong views...

Re:Singapore - not really free...

[putko]

"Being from Singapore myself I can say that Singapore never has been free - it makes a superficial attempt at looking like a democracy, but thats just to appease outsiders. Things like other political parties aren't legal... and people have been known to disappear if they hold the wrong views..."

Oh -- I guess I can't really call you an anonymous "COWARD" then, can I.

The unclear limits in Singapore would lead a lot of people to kepe their mouth shut and head down, and just hope for the best -- because you never know when you might get in trouble.

As Solszenitsyn mentions in his books on the gulags, the unclear boundaries of what was OK or not OK under the Bolsheviks led to people greatly restricting what they did, lest they get noticed and punished.

Re:Those commie bastards!

[radicalskeptic]

Actually Singapore is a market economy. It's one of the reasons they've been able to turn their economy around since they had a recession in 2001. The government is very business-friendly.

Not news!

[linumax]

In Iran (where I live) this is no news, it just happens everyday! the only difference is that jail is the simplest thing that could happen to a blogger!

What Did He Actually Say About Islam ?

[oldCoder]

I believe in free speech yet I do wonder what the guy actually said about Islam.

For my own 2 cents, I say defund radical Islam by seizing the oil fields. Stop paying for oil!

Re:What Did He Actually Say About Islam ?

[lixee]

The guy himself admitted some of his posts to be "extremely racist" according to this article http://www.asiamedia.ucla.edu/article.asp?parentid =32352/ The two bloggers convicted last month replied harshly to a mail from a Muslim woman to taxi firms. She asked the taxi firms to stop taking dogs onboard because of hygienic reasons (from TFA). I love pets, but insulting a woman who makes such a simple request is clearly out-of-line.

Re:What Did He Actually Say About Islam ?

[DECS]

Radical Islam doesn't have the oil that's sponsoring terrorism. It's America's partners - the friendly (albeit civil rights hostile) Saudi Kingdom, that was the source of the hijackers who blew up the WTC, and members of Bush family friends (trained by the CIA) who planned the attacks.

Also, Iraq was never radical islam - at best, a corrupt dictatorship that was nominally islamic.

It's like a rich family got mugged by the son of their rich neighbor, so they blame the poor kids from the bad side of town.

In Iraq's case, the rich neighbors went and burned the ghetto, creating more angry radicals, while doing nothing about the real problems in their own neighborhood.

Re:What Did He Actually Say About Islam ?

[baselsalam]

"by seizing the oil fields" Classic example of American arrogance - do you own the world?

Re:energy is liberated through blasphemy

[Lifewish]

P.S. All Satanists are really Christians. You do realise this, don't you?

Actually a decent chunk of satanists see Lucifer as being solely a metaphor for life, or a "force" equivalent to the Christian (C.S. Lewis et al) view of God as an underlying moral force to the universe. There's a comparatively small proportion of "literal" satanists (the sort that could indeed be considered left-handed Christians), who are more correctly termed Diabolists. Less abridged summary here

Wrong kind of dogs

[Anonymous Coward]

Muslims are dogs like those cute, little dogs that Paris Hilton carries around in her purse.

No, you naive fool. Devout muslims are like pitbulls: barking, biting, single-minded killing machines, awaiting a single moment of hesitation to go for your jugular.

Theo Van Gogh. Twin Towers. Pentagon. USS Cole. Embassy bombings all over Africa. Tehran embassy takeover. Munich olympics massacre. THAT'S ISLAM, FOR YOUR INFORMATION.

Re:Wrong kind of dogs

[Quantum Skyline]

How the hell is that kind of biased trash modded insightful?

Newsflash: All Muslims are not terrorists.

Re:Wrong kind of dogs

[Stormwatch]

letting people make such comments in public is just plain gay.

Stop being homophobic, will ya?

Re:Wrong kind of dogs

[indiechild]

What kind of fucking cowards mod these troll posts up?

Re:Wrong kind of dogs

[GaryPatterson]

When someone is so cowardly that they won't even put their name to their opinion, they don't hold their opinion strongly at all.

If you really believe this, put your name to it. Otherwise you're just another random troll, with as much to say as the goatse trolls or the GNAA trolls.

Re:Wrong kind of dogs

[baselsalam]

*news for nerds ?* Such dehumanizing of any racial group is the first step towards genocide. Try to read up on genocide has been passively allowed, then carried out, by the senseless public (definitely not nerds). Think Hitler's Germany, Europe during the Inquisition, Serbia under Milosevic. And if you're the type that cant be bothered with reading too much, just pop in Hotel Rwanda. Quote: "They are cockroaches." Perhaps you feel 'africans' are backwards, and they think thoughts with an underevolved brain that your highly developed western brain does not... think again.

Check your shit before you post, Anonymous Coward

[Dante Shamest]

Being from Singapore myself I can say that Singapore never has been free - it makes a superficial attempt at looking like a democracy, but thats just to appease outsiders.

If your definition of being free means being controlled by the British, then I'm glad not to be free.

Things like other political parties aren't legal..

They are legal and they do exist. They're just not popular.

people have been known to disappear if they hold the wrong views...

Complete BS. Name one person who has "disappeared".

Huh?

[Aqws]

What did he actually say? I can't find information anywere. If it's something that I don't want hear, then I guess that's ok.

More about the blogger

[tcak]

The Sydney Morning Herald is a little light on details. Gan Huai Shi's community service will be performed among the Malay-Muslims, the community he once expressed his racist sentiments. The Straits Times wrote: "His 180 hours of community work should also take place at Malay welfare organisations such as the Jamiyah Home for the Aged, Pertapis Children's Home and Muhammadiyah Health and Day Care Centre for the Aged."

There is also a story behind his anti-Malay/Muslim remarks.

"Mr Pereira told the court the youth's animosity towards Malays stemmed from the traumatic death of his baby brother 10 years ago.

Gan, then seven, was with his mother trying to get a cab to rush his one-month-old brother to hospital. They failed to persuade a Malay couple to give up a taxi which had stopped for them. It took another 20 minutes before they flagged down another taxi. The baby was pronounced dead on arrival."

News for Nerds?

[cowboy76Spain]

Excuse, but how come this new makes it to slashdot? Granted, the comments were made in a blog, but the issue is not with the blog itself but with the comments. Had he/she made the comments in a graffiti, or shouted them in a crowded place, it would be the same in regard to the law. Of course there is the issue if we like Singapur's laws, but then ours is just our opinion and who should decide on the law should be the Singapur citizens. And for do that properly, the article or any source should tell which where the comments that were made.

Do not forget that many democratic, Western countries, have laws that forbid making racist comments in public, too.

So, please do not make a "News for nerds" of everything that uses technology; just those news where the technology is a basic part or it, or where the new is about the technology. Posting this is like posting about an stalker just because he uses a cell phone to make dirty calls...

Re:Check your shit before you post, Anonymous Cowa

[Dante Shamest]

The mere fact that the AC felt threatened enough to post anonymously speaks volumes.

I don't even work for the government. :|

Even if I was a "govt stooge", he should be able to answer my questions as an AC. But he won't be able to, because he's talking out of his ass.

Re:Omnipotent

[Doc Ruby]

Moderation -1
    100% Overrated

Now that's exactly what I'm talking about. TrollMod'ing for god. 27 virgins await you - too bad they're your TrollMod buddies.

*shrug*

[aepervius]

You have a law against yelling "fire" in theater (and do not get me started on libel law either), we have a law against yelling "kill'em all they are black/jew/yellow/whatever". Your FCC I think even censor swearing on the wave. The thing is, nowhere in the world there is true free speech. Everywhere you have a more or less limited speech. US is for example one of the country with "seemingly" the less limited speech. Here in some country of the EU, we decided that incitation to hatred , and revisionism (denying some historical truth like that gas chamber existed and a lot of jew died in them) is forbidden. There is a very good historical ground for that, having been the theater of WW2. We have this things that showing violence is restricted/partly censored. But at least you can show a boob or even a pussy (not, not a cat ;)) and you won't be censored to hell and provok a scandal.

Re:*shrug*

[Kiaser Wilhelm II]

How can you call something a truth if one is not allowed to debate it?

It is amazing how people who are normally logical and sensible, beceome emotional when it comes to sensitive social issues.

I'm not gonna side with the revisionists but if someone believes otherwise, thats his business. As an objective thinker, I will take the side that seems the most rational based on the facts.

Re:*shrug*

[FLEB]

I'm not gonna side with the revisionists but if someone believes otherwise, thats his business.

In a free-speech society, although it's no one's place to stamp out absurd revisionism or half-baked positions, I'd say it's your place-- duty, even-- to call them out on being absurd and half-baked. A free-speech society where all positions are accepted and tolerated without opposition (because, after all, "It's a free country!") totally counters the goal of free speech. In an arena of open debate, incorrect speech is put down by the example of better ideas, not by force, but it should still be opposed.

Singapore, get off of the Internet

[Mancat]

I for one am tired of seeing every forum, newsgroup, and irc channel I visit being flooded by these morons.

malay2u has joined #channel
  haiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii
  who is r uuuu???? hellllllllloooooooooooooooooo?
  can u hlp meeeee plsssssssssss
  yy not?
  u all ar fagot
malay2u has left #channel

Re:Singapore, get off of the Internet

[elliott_p]

Trust me, I wish I can buy a dragunov and snuff out these f_ckers on the left eyeball one by one. Some MF apparently posted trash on /. from a major ISP here and got the whole subnet banned for real long. That PISSED ME OFF real big time. Ages back, when MUDs were way hot, I had real fun on one mixing with my clanmates from US, UK and all around. That is until people started cheating (crashing the server to dup items, etc). And yet again apparently the majority of these lamers are from Singapore. And so another subnet ban for many years. $%#@^%

Kiddies are everywhere, do you not have them in other countries around the world? I am not defending anyone, but let's not attribute certain behaviours to entire countries.

My point being that instead of stopping these morons from making appearances, let them in. When they start acting gay, screw them. Censoring out people isn't going to help, we need them to come onto the Internet and realise that the world isn't just this small little island. Yeah that brings us back to the topic: screw censorship.

And yeah, fcuk these people who doesn't want to learn and use proper English. They are going to flunk school anyhow, I expect most of them to end up nowhere in life.

Re:Singapore, get off of the Internet

[Safirul.Alredha]

Singapore are full of Chinese, not Malay.

Re:Singapore, get off of the Internet

[nzodd]

And yeah, fcuk these people who doesn't want to learn and use proper English.

Well put sir.

criticism or flaming?

[penguin-collective]

You're making a lot of assumptions.

First, how do you know the Singapore law doesn't protect atheists as well?

Second, how do you know that it prohibits "criticism", in the sense of philosophical or literary examination?

I think before jumping to conclusions, one needs to know a little more about the law.

Re:criticism or flaming?

[Pete]

The nature of laws in general is that they're flexible little bastards. And, most interestingly, those with the duty of prosecuting people tend to have quite a lot of latitude in deciding what specific charges to lay - or even to lay charges at all. And the result of seeing how the laws are used - especially in this specific case - is a massive chilling effect and self-censorship.

Well, it would be massive if Singapore weren't already a ludicruously controlled nanny state. Big Brother is watching.

Anyway, if you look at the motivation behind these sort of laws, they're meant more as a way to calm ethnic tensions and reduce the chance of race riots. The religion side of it is (almost certainly) totally irrelevant. I suspect referring to a "Muslim" in Singapore is just shorthand for "ethnic Malay".

Given that, it would be a little risky for, eg. a Singaporean atheist to make comments like "All Muslims are fucking delusional idiots", even if it was blindingly obvious that such a remark was intended in a "all religious types are fucking delusional idiots", not as an ethnic-Malay hate comment.

Mind you, it's probably a little risky for a Singaporean to make a comment about.. well, anything... Probably just best to stay completely silent, really. After all, at least the economy's in good shape!... oops... *quickly self-censors, removing the "at least"* :-).

Uncorrupt country?

[jotaeleemeese]

I want those rose tainted glasses matey, I would live in a less anguished world.

If you were a politician in opossition you would be living in hell.

If during a political campaign you claim a politician in power is not doing his job properly and why you could do it better, the politician in question will sue you for libel, take you to court, and Singapore is still waiting for the first goverment official that loses one of these cases.

Once you lose the case (beacuse lose you will) the punishment is draconian and basically you are ordered to pay outlandish damages to make sure your larn your lesson. Several prominent Singaporean opposition figures have been bankrupted this way.

Singapore executes people with the happy detachement only to be found in China (google around, you can always find one or two recent cases that leave you cringing with disgust for their "judicial system").

Singapore was also the first country in the world to introduce nationwide filtering of the Internet (but all is of course in the benefit of the citizens of the happy city-state, what do they want foreigners spreading lies about this forward looking country!).

No, I am not Singaporean, neither have Singaporean friends, but I lived and visited there, it reminded me of "Brave New World" a bit.

Catholicism is the biggest part of Christianity

[jotaeleemeese]

Thus your diferentiation is unnecessary.

Political Correctness, International

[Guncrazy]

Once again, a coward (anonymous or otherwise) demands that freedom of speech take a back seat to multiculturalism.

The right to share one's thoughts and opinions is a HUMAN right. It is not exclusive to any race, nationality, religion, political party, social class or sex, and there is no power under Heaven which possesses the moral authority to deny it to anyone.

That oppression makes for a "more peaceful society" is no defense. That is the rationalization used to justify female genital mutilation, denying literacy to certain classes, apartheid, the caste system, book burning, heretic burning, witch burning, the imprisonment of political dissidents, the murder of people who wear eyeglasses, the Spanish inquisition and genocide, just to name a few.

And you call yourself "educated." I only hope that you are not "educated" enough to begin espousing the lobotomization of all citizens, except a select few to serve as their overlords.

Public education post about Singapore.

[jotaeleemeese]

Draconian censorship.

Disent is not allowed and prosecuted legally by dishonest means.

Is the place with the highest level of per capita executions in the world. May they be rushing some of them? Who cares, when you claim your judicial system is pretty much without failure you can justify anything.

Like executing drug "mules" for carrying a few grams of drugs.

Or maids figthing back against abusive employers.

Read about Singapore in Amnesty International and prepared to be entertained (if you like grim narratives, that is).

Re:Public education post about Singapore.

[The Cydonian]

Like executing drug "mules" for carrying a few grams of drugs.

I was once chatting with this Narcotics Bureau officer on this. The way he put it, if you are out drinking in one of Singapore's many pubs, make sure you finish your drink before you leave the table and go to the, say, toilet. Apparently, there have been cases where folks have had their drinks spiked with some marijuana, only to be caught in a Narcotics Bureau raid, who, incidentally, were tipped off minutes before.

This basically tells me three things:-
a) Despite draconian laws, and sterile reporting, drugs are freely available on Singapore's streets.
b) A draconian law, like a loaded gun, is inherently indiscriminate in choosing its victims.
c) If a girl in a bar says no to my offer of a drink, I can blame the law.

Also in Singapore...

[Bananatree3]

They will hang political opposition leaders for possessing drugs...http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/44 68644.stm.

Re:Also in Singapore...

[theboogeyman]

Good, I support tough punishments for drug crimes.

Re:Also in Singapore...

[/dev/trash]

and this got rated a 5?

Re:Also in Singapore...

[metricmusic]

You would hope that he got a fair and just trial and he really did possess drugs, otherwise its just an iron curtain to remove a political opponment. when theres corruption like that who knows what else it'll extend to. next they'll be after you for the way that you look.

Re:Also in Singapore...

[planetoid]

Funny you call them drug "crimes" when it's just governments' legislated assaults against free markets and the unrepealable inevitabilities of supply and demand. Sadly, conservatism is the new Marxism :(

Re:Those commie bastards!

[Pig Hogger]

The government is very business-friendly.

Businesses do not give a flying fuck about political freedom. Au contraire, if the absence of political freedom can be extended to prohibit criticism of businesses, business will love censorship even more.

Re:Those commie bastards!

[radicalskeptic]

Who said anything about political freedom? The original poster said "communism" and I said "market economy". Neither of us mentioned political freedom at all. Maybe you're confusing communism with authoritarianism.

Re:energy is liberated through blasphemy

[wfberg]

(P.S. All Satanists are really Christians. You do realise this, don't you?)

I'd say a belief in God or Satan is pretty unrelated to a belief in Jesus of Nazareth as Christ. I have a hunch there are a few people (*cough* Jews *cough*) that might agree with me on this one.

Re:energy is liberated through blasphemy

[king-manic]

Actually a decent chunk of satanists see Lucifer as being solely a metaphor for life, or a "force" equivalent to the Christian (C.S. Lewis et al) view of God as an underlying moral force to the universe. There's a comparatively small proportion of "literal" satanists (the sort that could indeed be considered left-handed Christians), who are more correctly termed Diabolists. Less abridged summary here

those satanists use the monker for shock value of to garner more press. Their attention whores and nothign more. The Le Vey Satanists right.

So Let Me Get This Straight...

[jpiggot]

You sent millions of unwanted emails, clogging my inbox with offers to make my penis hard like concrete, but chew gum while walking down the sidewalk, and it's a public ass-whipping with a cane ? Nice.

Re:TROLL! DO NOT MOD Doc Ruby UP!

[Doc Ruby]

Slashstalker TrollBot

Re:energy is liberated through blasphemy

[DroopyStonx]

hahahahaha a+!

Re:critize muslims, get probation!

[waif69]

How is critizing muslims/Islam treated as sedition? Does Singapore have a Caliphate running the show over there?

extremely inaccurate story and post

[tod_miller]

Can someone explain why 'blogging' has ANYTHING to do with this damn story? You short-sighted fools.

sedition charges last month for posting anti-Muslim remarks

Does it matter WHERE he posted them? The fact that they were in a blog - DOES THIS MAKE THEM ANY FUCKING DIFFERENT. For fucks sake people, if you all make out that somehow, things written in blogs are somehow different to writing them in any other way? You totally miss the point of the story by focussing on some transient shitty 'technology / retracted-hyphenated word form' (noone knows what the fuck it actually means)

Singapore, which is unconcerned by wide criticism of its record of press freedom, appears to have been stepping up efforts against bloggers in recent months.

I can imagine that previously they have not devoted resources to 'online' information which requires a certain amount of organisation and recruitment of people who are net savvy to track these things. They are certainly not 'stepping up efforts against bloggers' You twatish hyper-fucking-teen-girl-giggling knobjockeys. hehehehe look we can bitch and moan about our rights and bloggers, and like, start a revolution damn it! stick it to the man! yeah, fuck yeah. idiots.

What is the worst fucking thing?

The fact that this pissfuckingshitty word like blog is whored all over this story, and noone gives a flying fuck about the actual case, which is about a country disallowing freedom of speech against religions.

Fuck if he posted it to a fucking bbs, forum, irc chan, news site, comment board, shoutbox, blog, profile, or any other thing you want to call text that is transmitted over http.

I have repeated this TIME AND TIME AGAIN. Not to mention the stories (oh damn I wish /. wouldn't clowns a wider audience) from pseudo wannabe bloggers who write articles ABOUT journalistic rights of bloggers - NOT ACTUALLY ABOUT FREEDOM OF FUCKING SPEECH but their own twisted short sighted lazy, irresponsible 'DAMN these laws conflict with my interest to say any shit and drive treffic to my motherfucking ads'.

You get it now?

Shut the FUCK up about blogging when talking about online freedoms of speech, in fact, shut the fuck up about online, and look at the real picture you narrow minded fucks.

He wasn't convicted under blogging laws, or for a crime of blogging. People are moving the fucking issue and not considering the reality of what he was charged for and the implications of that. Now, go ahead mod me down for swearing at the top of my voice trying to be heard in the squalid shit storm of ignorance that plagues /. these days.

please type the word in this image: dihedral
random letters - if you are visually impaired, please email us at pater@slashdot.org

MOD PARENT DOWN

[tod_miller]

As if the story has anything to do with blogging. Ignorant piece of shit. Parent is such a closed minded asshole, I really welcome debate on why I think this:

Why does this event have anything to do with A)blogging B)Journalism

and what does blogging have to do with journalism? I use a red pen at work to make notes? Maybe if I call that redlogging I shoudl ask for my own fucking laws and bitch and moan about stuff.

I do invite the parent to explain himself further and question why the fuck modders think that any vague and cursory snub refering to blogging and journalism can be modded up and how long before people see that blogging is a bloody red herring.

See my previous post on this very same story.

Re:Check your shit before you post, Anonymous Cowa

[Dante Shamest]

I'm actually in the process of trying to renounce my citizenship... thus the whole 'Anonymous Coward' thing.

You seriously think our governemnt tracks Slashdot accounts? They're not the Chinese government, for heaven's sakes. Anyway if you're leaving best of luck to you.

The thing is rights such as freedom of speech are not present in Singapore.

Sure it exists. Take a look at all the inane bloggers we have who keep critizing the governent: Mr Brown, Mr Miyagi, Xiaxue etc. The government is willing to have free speech

not to mention its technically illegal to have large gatherings of people

Is that why Zouk and Orchard Road are so popular?

Not to mention their method of campaigning in the 1997/98 (I believe) elections (Either vote for who the government says to or else your district will not get any improvements).

Seriously, who would have voted for any of the other loser parties back then?

I don't know any personally, but my parents have. Its either you get a government 'mentor', get removed from the country (or become an ambassador, etc), or disappear.

If you mean disappearing by immigration like what you're planning, don't make it sound so sinister lah. Anyway unless you can provide names, I can only assume these are rumours.

Singapore's new ad slogan

[schnitzi]

"Singapore: It's Not Just The Heat That's Oppressive."

Time to MetaMod repeatedly?

[ynotds]

Not that even mainsteam Islam (nor Christianity, nor whatever) should be protected from criticism on its fundamentals, but mindlessly repeating negative stereotytpes of any unfashionable group just increases the chances that the more impressionable amongst them will move towards the stereotype as they stop hearing more constructive views about how they might live their lives.

However the early moderations in this thread have been so deliberately viscious that the least anyone who finds them so can do is try to metamoderate them off the moderator list.

I'd take my chances with the Singapore government any day.

Even if it means a mandatory death sentence?

Re:critize muslims, get probation!

[Solilok]

Singapore has to stop these verbal or written attacks and slander before the situation degenerates. With all these religions next to each other it could quickly become ugly.

As for caning, I'd rather have my child be caned than spend time in jail with hardened criminals.

Moderation - IMPORTANT

[caitsith01]

Please, please moderate or metamoderate the above comments appropriately and demonstrate that ./ is not in fact run by a pack of psychotic, racially and religiously prejudiced fascists.

The parent post simply confirms the real problem the world faces today: ignorance, extremism and intolerance of any form threatening our open, liberal democratic societies.

2+2=5

[caitsith01]

Parent post brought to you by the Political Propaganda Organisation of Singapore.

Look at any other functioning democracy. One party garnering 80%+ of the popular vote does not point to masterful administration of the country, it points to corruption, brainwashing and totalitarianism dressed up as a free society.

Parrot the Singaporean government's lies all you like, it won't make them true.

Re:2+2=5

[GigsVT]

Two parties garnering 97% of the vote doesn't exactly point to healthy democracy either. Are we to believe that 97% of people agree with one party or the other?

Fairy Tales Suck

[caller9]

As a devout atheist I take offense anytime 90+% of the world says things. All of these arguments about who's fairy tale leads to eternal rewards of varied value are stupid. What's even better is that most Republican Bible-thumping hard core capitalists believe in a bigass socialist monarchy reward when its all over. I'm totally pro capitalism, but I still find this incredibly funny.

What is scariest to me is that, at some point, this religious zealotry was actually an evolutionary benificial trait. It actually fires up a portion of the brain. There's no one religion, but any religion that's good enough fires up this "group think" module in the brain and makes shit warm and fuzzy.

Man, that's freaking scary funny. The best part is, to prove them wrong you have to die and find out for yourself...but you can't because you stopped supplying your thinking parts with oxygen at the critical time, you dumb bastard.

Re:Fairy Tales Suck

[ml0fl1n]

A devout atheist? How pray tell (pun intended) does one practice atheism? Where are atheism's devotions performed?

Re:Fairy Tales Suck

[planetoid]

By partying and having the kind of fun that religious wackos deem "sinful" I guess?

I think Malay Muslims are inflammitory

[sl4shd0rk]

There Gan, freedom of speech keepin' it ral.

Re:Check your shit before you post, Anonymous Cowa

[metricmusic]

You're so brainwashed that you think the singaporean govt is better than the chinese government. It's not.

Sinaporore is a dictatorship dressed up in a false democracy.

Another thing a democratic government has separation between the military and politicians. Office candidates should be civilians not people in uniform.

Let me give you the context

[hoshino]

For those of you who are wondering why our government considers such remarks as "sedition", no it's NOT because our government is controlled by religious zealots or anything.

The reason is simple, racial riots broke out in Singapore in the 1960s. The government realized that being the muilti-racial country that we are, such conflicts between the communities cannot be allowed to happen again. We are a small country and if internal disputes between the races and religions breaks us up, there won't be anything left for anyone.

Thanks to 40 years of government policies, including the racial quotas in government housing such that racial groups will not be segregated into different areas/buidlings, Singapore has enjoyed racial and religious harmony, even after Islamic extremists were arrested post-911 for plotting to blow up American targets in Singapore (under the same Interal Security Act that Singapore is always receiving criticisms for).

So yes, maybe some of you prefer to chase after an abstract concept of "freedom", but to Singaporeans, it's a good thing that that idiot got arrested for his racist comments.

Yeah, Singapore Sucks

[Ranger]

You can't even pee in the elevators in Singapore.

Re:Yeah, Singapore Sucks

[chawly]

I've said it before, and I'm afraid that I'll have to say it again. Pee against a tree - instant natural water filter - and the water is instantly put to good use by the tree. Trees are good for our environment. If you live in a high-rise appartement, try to think of this before going out. If necessary, use the bathroom before getting into the elevator.

A singaporean speaks

[lestat1138]

Ok I'm from Singapore myself and I don't like many of the ridiculous laws in place but still I like the harsh jail terms and death penalties. The most retarded of the laws the $ing4p0rean government has put in place has got to be making sure that all the ISPs are monitored by the government through a proxy. We can't access a lot of porn and bittorrent speeds are worse than sloshing through quicksand. However I think the death penalty should remain in place. Look at the USA, convicted murderers can be let off because of good behaviour after maybe 18 years in jail and go off and kill someone again. That being said however, freedom of speech is a bit of an issue here. Not only because of pressure from the government but also from our fellow citizens. Many of the Christians here are creationists; Muslims, i dont really know; Buddhists, Taoists just usually don't give a damn unless the individual is scientifically minded. I have entertained the thought of turning up at a church one sunday and observe if the preacher is going to talk about evolution and its evils, if he does, i thought of telling him to STFU and tell the people about evolution, but decided against it as some squealer would probably report me to the police, and i might end up like the guy above. On the other hand, the infidels(note: I'm no muslim, I like to use the word infidel for both Christians and Muslims, since they called or still call each other that, no offense meant) can lecture and preach all they want about the evils of evolution and bash other religions all the want within their own sanctums. In fact a few weeks ago, the straits times published somethingabout religious proselysation within schools. They took a somewhat neutral stance with this issue but in the end they seemed to discourage that sort of behaviour. (the straits times is state owned) Even now, i'm slightly paranoid as i post this as this might somehow be an "act of sedition". I don't exactly agree with how the government has punushed this guy but if they want to do things this way, i suggest taking it out on fundamentalists as well

Re:A singaporean speaks

[chawly]

If you will permit me the suggestion - go and lie down in a quiet shady spot and have a good sleep. Perhaps a nurse to read you a story. The world's ills are not yours to assume. Everybody is slightly paranoïd - everybody. When you wake up, let us make a new religion - it will hold that the world should be free (as in beer), and those who believe in it should drink as much beer as possible. While drinking, the adherents will be compelled to leave everybody else to do their own thing. I'm Scots myself, but I've spent many an interesting hour in Singapore (above all during the moments of unrest). Smile please, you're on candid camera.

Re:Check your shit before you post, Anonymous Cowa

[The Cydonian]

Complete BS. Name one person who has "disappeared".

Chia Thye Poh.

Been a while since we've had political prisoners though, will grant that (unless, errr, the gahmen reads this and traces the post to my MaxOnline line :-|)

Name most likely fake -- Gan Huai Shi means ...

[808140]

Gan Huai Shi in Mandarin means 'does bad things.' (Of course, it could be a total coincidence, without the characters it's impossible to tell, but I'm not familiar with a last name Gan).

Pretty funny that no one noticed this.

Re:Those commie bastards!

[initialE]

The government is very business-friendly.

Actually that's the part I hate about it here. Not enough laws to protect the little guy. Alot of talk about "maintaining your employability" in the older years and having children w/o getting fired. Not alot done.

I love it how a post goes from +4 insightful to +1

[tod_miller]

Ooops you're a moron!

+4 insightful (admittedly depending on your mod setup) to +1 insighful. That is some Yankovich stuff man.

The point remains valid.

dead link

[drinkypoo]

The asiaone link is dead, try the google cache.

I agree with parent and other child post

[doctorjay]

Seriously, us americans and other westerners should just butt out of other countries affairs. If the citizens of singapore care enough to rally for free speech, let them. It is not our place to prod them or lobby the gov to implement what we think is right. Rules are put into place for a reason as the parent suggests. We sitting thousands of miles away usually dont see the reason why these rules get put into place. If we want Singapore to change and have the freedoms that we enjoy, then its got to come from within, not from us or anyone else. People in other parts of the world operate differently than we do. Why cant we get that through our heads? Every time .. we try and poke our noses where it doesnt belong we end up destabalizing countries or entire regions. Im glad singapore is turning a deaf ear on foreing pressure to change. Only they know whats best for them. A close friend of mine's father used to be a cop in India. There the police are well known for their extremly brutal tactics but they almost always get the job done, and they get it done right. Those harsh methods are absolutly necessesary for keeping 1 billion people under control. Since western influence is slowly and surely creeping into their methods of justice, we are starting to see more heinous crimes being committed and other insanites of the west permeating to India. (Violent Criminals sueing the gov etc) As long as mass genocide is not being committed or anything like that we should really keep to ourselves and worry about problems on our own soil first.