Film Documents Software Creation

vasanth writes "Aardvark'd: 12 Weeks with Geeks a story of intern programmers at New York-based Fog Creek Software creating a product from scratch to shipping, is now finished, one of the first films to delve wholly into the life and culture of coding. And though it may not be the next Harry Potter, it's an engaging film that focuses more on the personalities of the people than on the technology, bringing to life a process ordinarily wrapped in geek mystique."

Comments

Geeks!

[ZiakII]

Welcome back to The Geek Hunter... today we visit its lair.... the basement... they spend most of their time reading slashdot.....On a sidenote why does it feel like I'm an animal that people want to study?

Re:Geeks!

[evilneko]

Bathe more often, maybe? ;)

How does it compare to Windows XP Remote Assistanc

[melted]

How does it compare to Windows XP Remote Assistance? Remote Assistance comes with Windows and it has been available for three years now.

So it's like "The Office"

[Anonymous Coward]

only everyone is Garreth

Re:So it's like "The Office"

[nmoog]

Yeah, or remember the guy that comes to fix the computers...
"What you doing with my computer?"
"It's not your computer is it? It's Wernham Hogg's."
"Right. What you doing with Wernham Hogg's computer?"
"You don't need to know."
"No I don't need to know but could you tell me anyway?"
"I'm installing a firewall."
"OK what's that?"
"It protects your computer against script kiddies, data collectors, viruses, worms and trojan horses and it limits you're outbound internet communications. Any more questions?"
"Yes. How long will it take?"
"Why? Do you want to do it yourself?"
"No, I can't do it myself. How long will it take you out of interest?"
"It will take as long as it takes."
"Right, er, how long did it take last time when-"
"It's done."

Re:So it's like "The Office"

[Anonymous Coward]

your, not you're ;)

Re:So it's like "The Office"

[Killall -9 Bash]

Sinse when are grammar nazis insightfull? thank god for meta-moderation.

Re:So it's like "The Office"

[Crizp]

Yes, "Informative" should be the right mod here :)

Re:What it's all about?

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice ad.

What?

[TheNationalist]

It seems like everything today is being turned into a film or reality show. Not everything is exciting, especially coding a new project. In fact, that's probably one of the least exciting things they could have focused on.

Re:What?

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought the same thing at first... But then it hit me... Remember the first project you were a part of? Assuming you've been there... It really was a blast for me and exciting. Some days the work was boring as all hell, but when you're with a project from start to finish and see it ship, there's something in that, at least at first.

After years of it though, it begins to lose its magic. Especially if you went from a geek dominated culture, to one where a soccer mom is your project manager. The point is though, that while I think I would find this boring as all hell, to people who haven't been there, they might find this really interesting. I would have before the industry found my soul into a fine dust and spread it across the ocean of asskissers.

Re:What?

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Not everything is exciting, especially coding a new project. In fact, that's probably one of the least exciting things they could have focused on.

Ahh, "Blockbuster Movie Syndrome": Everything put on film must be exciting...

Re:What?

[Anonymous Coward]

It seems like everything today is being turned into a film or reality show. Not everything is exciting, especially coding a new project. In fact, that's probably one of the least exciting things they could have focused on.

Not to mention that Joel is pretty much out of karma - the guy has been preaching as a self-anointed genius of software development for over half a decade now.

So what has he achieved?

Well he still has a tiny shop - about the same size that he had when he cashed in his Microsoft options. A large portion of his pimping is for trivial crap like his endless use of Amazon affiliate links, as well as attention whoring. Of his products, one is a trivial, overpriced rip of an open source VPN, the other was a marginal CMS that they've pretty much canned, along with a one-of-about-a-million-clones bug tracking package.

Woot!

What a prophet.

Re:What?

[Anonymous Coward]

A-mf-men. Joel doesn't have the reality to back up his claims. he's full of himself.

Re:What?

[LordLucless]

This isn't a reality TV show; it's a documentary. Documentaries have been around for ages, and they aren't designed to entertain in the way films are, they're designed to inform. Geeks probably aren't the target audience for this - we already know most of the stuff they're going to be showing. The target audience are people who don't know the first thing about what goes on when developing software, so that once they've finished watching it, they will have a clue.

Re:What?

[Recurve Boy]

Give it a chance. There was a documentary series on the English language here in Australia a while back. I can't remember the name. I'm not particularly interested in English or any languages but it turned out to be very interesting. Is it me or is Reality TV is giving real documentaries a bad name? :(

Re:What?

[cammoblammo]

My experience is that soccer mums make great project managers.

Organising six kids (four of whom are somebody else's and refuse to be organised), planning and acquiring resources for activities and meals, transporting everyone in a safe and timely manner and then coaching the soccer team... I think I'd rather just be a cubicle jockey.

Some of the projects I've been involved in would be a walk in the park compared to a lot of the 'normal' families I know.

Re:What?

[cammoblammo]

Nice rant, and I'm probably inclined to agree, but I think it would be better form to actually log in before you start...

Then again, I suppose there's a reason ACs are known as 'cowards.'

Re:What?

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice rant, and I'm probably inclined to agree, but I think it would be better form to actually log in before you start...

Then again, I suppose there's a reason ACs are known as 'cowards.'

Oh for fuck's sake - are there really people this dumb?

1. Most "logged in" users here are as anonymous as an AC. Most people don't f'n bother because it doesn't add any credibility (except to douchebags such as yourself. "Oh gosh, it nofatchicks77 says it, then it gots ta be true!")
   
2. Either the message carries weight, or it doesn't. If your way of reading Slashdot is to weight everything by your biases, then you are a flipping idiot. Grow up dirt bag.
   

Re:What?

[lysergic.acid]

I thought the Blockbuster Movie Syndrome was the belief that adding multi-million dollar CGI, a popular cast of well known hollywood actors, and lots of explosions to a movie automatically makes the movie good/interesting. This kind of thinking leads to people watching tiresome movies with the same rehashed formulaic plots over and over again. When you automatically condemn anything unconventional/doesn't follow the hollywood blockbuster formula, then you leave no room for originality or creativity. This movie atleast doesn't try to follow that formula. It doesn't guarantee that the film will be good, but it atleast guarantees that it's something new--which, IMHO, is better than the typical junk being peddled to audiences by Hollywood.

Re:What?

[Anonymous Coward]

"My experience is that soccer mums make great project managers.

Organising six kids (four of whom are somebody else's and refuse to be organised), planning and acquiring resources for activities and meals, transporting everyone in a safe and timely manner and then coaching the soccer team... I think I'd rather just be a cubicle jockey."

It's ironic that you don't see the problem with this. You see, because soccer mum(you british?) has so many parental responsibilities, soccer mum leaves early a lot, is on the phone a lot for a parental reasons, and just generally has a very difficult time staying up to speed on the project she's supposed to be managing.

But she's so nice, and she says what the higher ups want to hear, that she has a long bright future with the company.

I don't know what experience you've had with a soccer mom managing a project, but this has been mine. If I'm going to be asked to sacrifice my personal life for the sake of meeting deadlines, I want to be asked that by someone who is in the trenches with me and knows what the hell is going on.

Buying us a big subway sandwich because we're going to stay late while you go home early, then offering us tickets to an amusement park as a thank you for sacrificing our personal lives just doesn't strike me as the pinnacle of project management techniques.

In case any soccer mum project managers read this: I hate subway. I hate subs. And I hate amusement parks. If you're going to practice management through bribery, at least bribe us with stuff we like. Like $$$s.

Re:What?

[AmberBlackCat]

If Slashdot can find a following, these people can find a following.

Re:What?

[fafaforza]

Well, it's not like they are filming the developers slouched over their beyboards, typing away for 9 hours straight. Haven't seen the video but there is strong possibility for all kinds of interplays, possible conflicts of ideas or prides, the competition between the young interns who envision this as their time to show their stuff, be on top, make it, leave a legacy, and other such cliches.

Studying black holes couldn't be more boring either -- most of it being based on theoretical mathematics and endless equations-- but with a proper presentation, a layperson can be introduced to a field and theory we'd otherwise pass on rather quickly.

Re:What?

[ozmanjusri]

Ahh, "Blockbuster Movie Syndrome": Everything put on film must be exciting.

Yeah, to me the formulaic blockbuster movies are boring as batshit. Some of the technical films in the Prelinger archives http://www.archive.org/details/prelinger are much more interesting. How can you go past a film like;

Personal Hygiene (Part I) - U.S. Army
Military training drama showing how the residents of a barracks convince a sloppy soldier to clean up his act. With many folk songs on cleanliness.

It's unintentionally hilarious, and there are thousands like it in the collection.

Re:What?

[Anonymous Coward]

Either the message carries weight, or it doesn't.

Nice... I've said in the past the reason I post AC is I hate the coloration of association. It'd be neat to see slashdot do all posts AC for a week. I suspect there would be a huge difference in the type of comments that get highest mods. Like far better quality posts and conversations.

Re:What?

[DeafByBeheading]

Mod parent up. Come on, do it. And hell, I'll even post non-AC in support.

Re:What?

[cammoblammo]

The point is you've taken an anonymous potshot at someone who isn't anonymous. Fair enough, a person like Joel who seems to have a flair for self promotion (with or without the goods to back it up) puts themselves in the firing line.

It makes me wonder why you actually read this particular forum. Obviously you're aware of Joel's history. Did that influence your decision to read it? Given your post, I suspect it might have. If Joel had done this anonymously, I wonder if you would have bothered.

The point of the Slashdot login and friend/foe/fan/feak system is so you can filter out posts based on people's posting history. Be honest now--how many people have CyricZ filtered out?

But you, my brave, potty-mouthed friend, won't give me that. I can't even get a list of prior posts. So how, apart from a well formed but ultimately abusive post am I supposed to judge what I think of your future posts before you post them?

Re:What?

[XNormal]

So what has he achieved?

If you assume nothing but a huge software conglomerate is "achievement" then I guess he has not achieved much.

His job satisfaction must beat the hell out of most of us in the software industry. I'd call that success.

Re:What?

[Anonymous Coward]

what are u trying to say...???????

are the anonomus supposed to just wither away and not post or are u going to hand out the authority to moderate???

what you need is a better mod system whereby the posters remain anonymous but you can still filter people based on their anonymous posts... thatway you can decide that the trolls are not readable... and you avoid a lot of these so called"problems" with the forum system.

what do you think slashdot??? can we make the open-source challeng and post a new source codes???

i can work on a patch(dont know PERL but i do some php and its not so hard)

Re:What?

[Mossarian]

More than likely the projector will crash during the show and they'll have to issue a patch for a security flaw in scenes one and four. Version 2.0 is due out next summer (maybe). Not to mention that it went over budget and over time with scenes in it that no one asked for and in future the entire production will be outsourced to Bollywood. :-)

Re:What?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you assume nothing but a huge software conglomerate is "achievement" then I guess he has not achieved much

I'd settle for interesting, innovative software. YetAnotherBugTracker isn't that, neither is reinventing remote desktop.

Joel's column is sometimes worth reading, but it's more talk than action. This movie just seems like more narcistic self-promotion. Let the code do the talking.

Re:What?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you assume nothing but a huge software conglomerate is "achievement" then I guess he has not achieved much.

If you've tracked him at all, you'll know that he had much grander plans. He has also increasingly resorted to a cult-of-personality desperation, desperately trying to get attention for a couple of relatively lightweight apps by cashing in his industry cred. It's also a bit disturbing that lately he's increasingly using things like Amazon affiliate links from his book "recommendations" (more like "in stock and I hope to get a referral fee"). Very lame.

Re:What?

[elrous0]

I think you mean "The Story of English." It played here in the states on PBS and, more recently, A&E. Really interesting stuff.

-Eric

Re:What?

[sootman]

Not prophet... PROFIT! He's probably got more money than you, me, and 99% of the people on this board... *and* having a great time doing it.

You were saying?

Re:What?

[Anonymous Coward]

..and they will become learned, and they will rise among us, at the same time, in movie theaters throughout the land, pointing an accusing finger at false portrayals of our kind, hurling popcorn at gigantic screens, saying

'That is sooooo fake! He's using a word processor to upload the virus, fer chrissakes! It's just Flash! n00b!!'

Except when the actor in question is Sandra Bullock, of course.

Re:What?

[Anonymous Coward]

The point of the Slashdot login and friend/foe/fan/feak system is so you can filter out posts based on people's posting history.

And what do you think the point of Slashdot offering ACs are? You obviously read AC posts... Perhaps the best way to protect yourself from the posts that you are so offended by, AC posts, is to not read AC posts? Isn't that the same thing as filtering out the posts by other people you're offended by?

Re:What?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you've tracked him at all, you'll know that he had much grander plans.

I don't think what I quoted above says much. The way you get ahead is to aim high. If you fall short, at least you did better than the legions who just took jobs...

He has also increasingly resorted to a cult-of-personality desperation, desperately trying to get attention for a couple of relatively lightweight apps by cashing in his industry cred.

When you're on your own, you do what it takes to market what you have. It's very easy taking a job with someone else and not having to worry about details like that, but when you're pushing a company forward, you do what you can with what you have.

It's also a bit disturbing that lately he's increasingly using things like Amazon affiliate links from his book "recommendations" (more like "in stock and I hope to get a referral fee"). Very lame.

Very shrewd business tactic though.

Such a movie already exists

[Seiruu]

Revenge of the Nerds

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0088000/

Re:Such a movie already exists

[JourneyExpertApe]

But this sounds like a documentary, whereas "Revenge of the Nerds" was a cheesy, fictional film about nerd stereotypes.

A bit on the movie's costs, profits, and success

[Skim123]

This blog entry by Joel Spolsky details the success of the film, including the profit and loss... interesting to see the cost breakdown in making an independent film. As of December 1st they had sold nearly 2,600 copies of the DVD, but being listed on /. will surely net some additional sales.

Of course the real profit is in increased exposure to Joel's company and the highlighting of his internship program, which likely promises an even better crop of students next summer.

Guess who screwed up

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, that's right, the marketing guy Yaron Guez. If you read the blog you can see for yourself how he was always the one staying up till 3 partying, he was the one who screwed up the logo designs and posters and had to be bailed out by the techie interns, he was the guy who came up with the rediculous "sidepilot" naming gimmick.

Here are examples discussing his general ineptitude.

Its a bit of a surprise given how good at marketing Joel himself is.

Re:Guess who screwed up

[Seumas]

You should talk to the guy elsewhere in this article thread who wonders why you should be into the geek culture to be a good software engineer. Your comment is EXACTLY why. I want someone with a passion who cares about what they're doing beyond just a paycheck and respect at the job when they're writing software or debugging it. I want someone who really cares about the whole process and the outcome and not someone who would rather half-ass it so they can make happy-hour with the other frat boys before all the hot chicks show up for jello shots.

Re:Guess who screwed up

[Anonymous Coward]

What the hell is JellO shots?

Re:Guess who screwed up

[Seumas]

Some lame ass college / frat thing. I don't drink so I dont' really know. I just know it involves alcohol and jello and some movie was going to have that as the title and then they named it something else that wasn't as provocative and "dangerous".

Re:Guess who screwed up

[Inthewire]

I know this is slashdot, but did you read the discussions you linked?
The guy was defended by the community at large and fellow interns in particular.
I'm a developer in a small company and I work closely with marketing.
Guess who actually goes out and gets the money?
I can make a product, but they can find a customer.
Chicken and egg, man.

so this is basically an advertisement?

[onetwentyone]

I know there are some good intentions for this film but the article makes it sound like one long advertisement. Come work for us, we made a movie.

Re:so this is basically an advertisement?

[Seumas]

You must be new here. That has been Joel's modus operandi for months now. If he farts and writes about the delectible smell, it winds up on Slashdot.

Re:so this is basically an advertisement?

[Anonymous Coward]

Just like Linus. Variety is nice.

Re:How does it compare to Windows XP Remote Assist

[xTantrum]

one of those dudes alot like 'ol billy WTF? i wonder if they picked him for geek added effect.

Compare to the 1981 version...

[Myself]

If you haven't already, you owe it to yourself to read The Soul of a New Machine by Tracy Kidder. It documents and humanizes the effort at Data General, with one team working to soup up the existing architecture, and another team working to redefine the market with a revolutionary new design.

Re:Compare to the 1981 version...

[Anonymous Coward]

The book makes sense to the general public. I share it with close friends and relatives since it uses simple words explaining our fascination for the machines, the never-ending search for bugs, and even early videogame entertainment and life working in a basement setting. It gives you a warm fuzzy feeling just to read the annedotes.

Going so far as talking about management and meetings (affectionately, "the weekly No-op,") it takes a good look at a hardware giant company's mentalily and how its engineers competed with another company decades ago and spent overtime to make the DEC 32-bit machine a reality.

Re:Compare to the 1981 version...

[belmolis]

The Soul of a New Machine is indeed a terrific book. The only downside is that it is disappointing to realize that the machine they built was the DG Nova, which wasn't the great success they hoped it would be but was eclipsed by the VAX.

Re:Compare to the 1981 version...

[bheer]

Or for something a little more software-related, try Showstopper by G. Pascal Zachary.

Re:Compare to the 1981 version...

[Myself]

"Eclipsed", ha! Seriously though, I read the book before I outgrew my C64, so I didn't know what happened to the Nova until years later. When I started learning about the Vax era, and found Data General an unfortunate little footnote, my heart just sank. I felt like I knew those guys. I felt like I knew those machines!

Makes you wonder which of today's software companies will be remembered in 20 years...

Re:How does it compare to Windows XP Remote Assist

[TimBrady]

They make a big deal of the fact that Copilot works through all firewalls and proxies, but other than that, not much.

Love...

[Anonymous Coward]

Does it mention the fact that the reason they are geeks and live in the basement coding away is because the last girl that they saw naked was...err...nevermind. They probably have NEVER seen a girl naked. :)
Then again, they probably got into coding creating a web based pr0n agreggator. Do two dimensional naked girls count?

Torrent?

[XoXus]

Anyone got a torrent?

Re:Torrent?

[XoXus]

-1? WTF? This was tongue-in-cheek humour. Damn you moderators!

Developers!

[toeofdestiny]

Developers! Developers! Developers!

Re:How does it compare to Windows XP Remote Assist

[Bloater]

> They make a big deal of the fact that Copilot works through all firewalls and proxies

I'd like to see that. They'd have to have several proxies at well known addresses listening on all ports, tunnelling their protocol inside various standard protocols on each of those ports (so enough machines to make that possible). But that won't help when your firewall only lets your kids' computer connect to the BBC website, your local network, your local library, and their school.

No, you are incorrect

[eclectro]

There is another engaging film that focuses more on the personalities of the people than on the technology

I especially like the jiffy-pop ending

Re:No, you are incorrect

[Paleomacus]

Have you ever had that dream where you see yourself standing in sort of sun-god robes on a pyramid, with a thousand naked women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?

Re:No, you are incorrect

[_Neurotic]

Except that in "Real Genius" there wasn't any real technology under the hood worth noting. I mean, a death laser used to pop popcorn? I never understood the appeal of that barf bag of a movie. "Kent, stop playing with yourself." Ugh....

Re:No, you are incorrect

[elrous0]

I mean, a death laser used to pop popcorn?

Better than putting it on sharks that just swim away.

-Eric

Bill Gates cloned!!

[wiredlogic]

It looks like one of them is a clone of Bill Gates. Note the peculiar neck implant. This can only be the work of the Borg as they try to infiltrate our planet.

Re:Bill Gates cloned!!

[WilliamSChips]

I am becoming gerund, destroyer of verbs.

"To be" is a verb. So there's still a verb in your sentence. Nice try though. You could make it "I becoming gerund" though.

Re:Bill Gates cloned!!

[BlueGecko]

The intern who looks like Bill Gates is probably me (I'm Benjamin Pollack). It's not the first time I've been accused of looking like Bill Gates. I actually was reentering the United States a few years ago and going through customs in Newark, and the customs officer who was at my window when I finally got to the front of the line looked incredibly bored. I walked up and put my passport down. He glanced up, started asking the typical questions, then, staring at my face, he paused. He then looked back down at my passport, back at me, back at my passport, back at me, and then said in a thick Italian accent, "You are related to Bill Gates?" The people I was with just started cracking up, and several people suddenly glanced over in my direction. It was actually a bit embarassing, but also kind of fun to have everybody suddenly paying attention to me for no good reason.

You will be happy to know that he and I are not related. Besides, if he were, he'd hate me; I'm a diehard Mac user.

Re:Bill Gates cloned!!

[Midnight Thunder]

Besides, if he were, he'd hate me; I'm a diehard Mac user.

Not necessarily. There have been rumours indicating he is a closet Mac user.

Re:Bill Gates cloned!!

[Anonymous Coward]

In case you were wondering what the guy looks like, here's a few pictures.

Software Creationism...

[rubberbando]

In the Beginning, there was 0....

On the 1st day God said, let there be 1's and it was good...

Re:Software Creationism...

[Seumas]

Then the devil said "there are 10 kinds of supernatural beings. Those who understand binary and those who do not."

Re:Software Creationism...

[lpzie]

Then the devil said "there are 10 kinds of supernatural beings. Those who understand binary and those who do not."

failure.

Re:Software Creationism...

[DeafByBeheading]

You know, it's dangerous to assume your memory is zero-initialized...

Re:Software Creationism...

[Rakshasa Taisab]

On the 2nd day we got 2, and no human knew how to write software for it...

Re:Software Creationism...

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't you mean the 0th day?

Re:Software Creationism...

[Stephen Williams]

I'm shocked that a website such as this, frequented by technologists and scientists, is promoting the so-called "theory" of software creation. It is a well-documented, proven fact that software comes into existence by evolving slowly over time. Don't even get me started on those fools who believe software to have been intelligently designed.

-Stephen

Re:Software Creationism...

[Crizp]

Color me stupid, but I've always read this joke as you write it. Is it not wrong? Should it not be "there are (0)1 types of people in the world?"

10 in binary is 3 dec, no? Or am I an idiot (rhetorical question) and...

AH! finally get it. WHOOOSH!

Re:Software Creationism...

[Anonymous Coward]

10 in binary is 2 decimal, not 3.

A binary number is written in terms of powers of 2. The rightmost place is 2^0, the one left of that is 2^1, and so on, so 10 (base 2) = 2^1*1 + 2^0*0 = 2 (base 10).

All told, I'm afraid that you've just proven the point of the saying. :)

Re:Software Creationism...

[c4ffeine]

In support of your argument against intelligent software design, I reference Microsoft software.

I rest my case.

Re:Software Creationism...

[Splab]

actually Ive always found the joke flawed - one binary digit gets you two options - 1 or 0 - that is two types of people.

With two digits you get 4 options - 00 01 11 10...

Of course the joke nazis is bound to come pointing out that 10_binary is 2_decimal, ohh well, back to my lair.

Re:Software Creationism...

[Crizp]

I'm and idiot, and started counting at 1, not zero. Gaah. Your post is actually informative, shame 'bout the modding down.

Perfect!

[xeon4life]

Brilliant! No, seriously, this is the perfect way to introduce prospective CS students to the geek culture. I have friends that are very worried about their future, and aren't sure whether they're ready to commit themselves to studying CS yet, but a film like this is the perfect way to help alliviate some of their fears. It wont solve any outsourcing dilemmas, but it will certainly encourage them.

Re:Perfect!

[Anonymous Coward]

Why the fuck does someone who wants to study CS have to have anything whatsoever with geek culture? Why can't normal people with social skills, an interest in physical activity and a girlfriend study CS? Why do they have to know about Anime and Slashdot BSD-dying jokes to study CS?

Re:Perfect!

[Seumas]

Because those kind of people create crappy, uninspired software. The last thing I want to hear from a coworker is "Man, I don't even OWN a computer. When I go home, it's all about watching the football game and rock climbing!".

You should have more of a passion for the field than a driver-through cashier at McDonald's has for theirs.

Re:Perfect!

[servognome]

Because those kind of people create crappy, uninspired software. The last thing I want to hear from a coworker is "Man, I don't even OWN a computer. When I go home, it's all about watching the football game and rock climbing!".

Why because they have a balanced life? Why does software have to be "inspired," it just has to function. Zealots can spend too much time including nice-to-have features than accomplishing the main objectives on schedule. You don't need to think about computers 24/7 to do a good job.

Re:Perfect!

[Anonymous Coward]

Brilliant! No, seriously, this is the perfect way to introduce prospective CS students to the geek culture.

No, the geek culture has changed dramatically since this movie was shot. Nowdays you shoot these films at McDonalds counter.

I have friends that are very worried about their future, and aren't sure whether they're ready to commit themselves to studying CS yet, but a film like this is the perfect way to help alliviate some of their fears.

You insensitive clod. Being stuck in their parents' basement fear shall they.

It wont solve any outsourcing dilemmas, but it will certainly encourage them.

Neither will it solve dilemmas with having normal sexlife, and I don't see how this movie should encourage them. Unless your friends are horny 18yo female godnesses considering whether they are ready to commit themselves to studying CS yet, please save them.

Re:Perfect!

[Seumas]

Why does software have to be "inspired," it just has to function.

That comment kind of speaks for itself.

Re:Perfect!

[Anonymous Coward]

Why does software have to be "inspired," it just has to function.

You work for Micro$oft don't you servognome?

Re:Perfect!

[AveryT]

Believe it or not, you can be passionate, committed, yes, even workaholic about writing code without having an Adam's apple the size of Bulgaria.

Normal social and sexual relationships and writing good software are not mutually exclusive.

Re:Perfect!

[servognome]

That comment kind of speaks for itself.

Some people approach a project understanding things like scope and deadlines. Not as a chance to reinvent programming, to create the most amazing interface ever devised, or write their PhD thesis on. Sometimes a person who tries to create something "inspirational," loses focus on the objectives, and ends up unfinished or with a half-assed solution because they spent too much time trying something new, or on un-needed bells and whistles.
You can care about your job, without it consuming your life. People will work 16 hours a day, 6 days a week, and prefer to spend their free time rock climbing, than doing computer related things.

Re:Perfect!

[lysergic.acid]

Well, if programming is just a source of income for you, then the effort you put into it, and thus the quality of your code, probably won't be as good as the code produced by someone else, to whom programming is a hobby or a passion. In other words, if you actually enjoy programming, you will likely be a better programmer than someone who doesn't.

Re:Perfect!

[Jack9]

All engineering requires persistent learning and reinvention. Anything less is work that can and should be automated.

Re:Perfect!

[Mr. Show]

Why because they have a balanced life? Why does software have to be "inspired," it just has to function. Zealots can spend too much time including nice-to-have features than accomplishing the main objectives on schedule. You don't need to think about computers 24/7 to do a good job.

This is a terrible comment. Please don't tar people who are good at their job and have a passion for what they do by calling them zealots. If I were interviewing you for a position at my company, and you said, "Why does software have to be 'inspired,' it just has to function," I would stop, kindly thank you for your time, and ask you to leave. An attitude like that means you're just phoning it in; that your life begins at 5; that you don't understand the passion driving the co-workers around you.

Don't get me wrong. I have nothing against having other interests. But having other interests and writing inspired software are hardly mutually exclusive.

Great companies foster cultures that draw employees who are looking for inspiration. Take Google, for example: "Google engineers all have '20 percent time' in which they're free to pursue projects they're passionate about." And it's worked for them: "This freedom has already produced Google News, Google Suggest, AdSense for Content, and Orkut - products which might otherwise have taken an entire start-up to launch."

Ironically enough, since this article is related to Fog Creek Software, Joel Spolsky has written very well on this subject already. I suggest you read it. Slowly. Then go back and read it again.

Really great programmers, the kind who want software to be "inspired," are worth their weight in gold. Good management identifies them early, pays them a ton of money, and makes sure they're always happy. If they lose them, they tend to throw chairs around the room. That's how valuable they are. The rest tend to plod along in the IT development of, say, General Motors, writing crappy Perl CGI scripts to automate HR tasks (poorly).

Re:Perfect!

[HeyLaughingBoy]

if you actually enjoy programming, you will likely be a better programmer than someone who doesn't.

Yeah, but if you're both "good enough" then no one cares.

Re:Perfect!

[servognome]

All engineering requires persistent learning and reinvention.

Yes, persistent learning should be part of everybody's (not just engineer's) work development. Dedication to improving at your trade doesn't mean a person has to immerse themselves in their job. Participating in computer related activities in your free time, does not necessarily mean that experience can directly apply to your specific job. If somebody is always working with computers they may have an edge over somebody who prefers to go mountain biking; but the influence of external activities on an individual's ability to perform a specific task tends to be minimal compared to things like leadership, creativity, discipline, organization, etc.

There are those who are passionate about computers and programming, but aren't organized, or focused enough, or just don't care about the specific project to be sucessful. You know the guy who knows "everything," so he feels that the assignment you need him to work on is beneath him. I'd rather have somebody who can complete tasks on schedule and then goes out to play golf on the weekend, than a computer geek who hacks away all day and night and can't meet a deadline because he's adding in one more killer feature.

Re:Perfect!

[servognome]

Please don't tar people who are good at their job and have a passion for what they do by calling them zealots.

By the same token don't think people who would rather do something else are always just phoning it in. The zealots I am talking about are those people who love computers, but suck at programming, or aren't able to be managed effectively (eg they'd rather make the software do something far beyond scope, and go over budget or schedule).

"Why does software have to be 'inspired,' it just has to function," I would stop, kindly thank you for your time, and ask you to leave. An attitude like that means you're just phoning it in; that your life begins at 5; that you don't understand the passion driving the co-workers around you.

Not every bit of code you write has to be inspired, not everything artists draw is a masterpiece. There are instances where the lightbulb of brilliance goes off, and you create something great. The time constraints of business means that you don't always have the opportunity to make that breakthrough, sometimes you need to get the program working, and revisit the great ideas at another time. At the end of the day, the most important thing is the program works.

But having other interests and writing inspired software are hardly mutually exclusive.

I agree, that was the issue I had with the great grandparent post. There are in fact people who just want to go home and watch football, who write great code and have brilliant ideas.

Take Google, for example: "Google engineers all have '20 percent time' in which they're free to pursue projects they're passionate about." And it's worked for them: "This freedom has already produced Google News, Google Suggest, AdSense for Content, and Orkut - products which might otherwise have taken an entire start-up to launch."

What is great about that is Google is harnessing the diversity of the employees. If everybody is "Geek culture" oriented, as the great grandparent poster wants, it reduces the effectiveness of such programs. Do you think somebody totally into computers thought of mapping bike trails on Google maps?

Really great programmers, the kind who want software to be "inspired," are worth their weight in gold

The great programmers aren't just passionate, they posess leadership, organization, and other skills which most people don't have. For every great programmer there are many passionate ones who aren't able to translate that passion into anything useful.

Re:Perfect!

[lysergic.acid]

Yes, in most low-level positions that is probably true. But those are the same jobs that are being outsourced to India because such job markets aren't about surpassing the next candidate, it's about underbidding the next applicant.

Re:Perfect!

[MikeBabcock]

If you're just "good enough" then some people will care. Those are the people that buycars that last more than two years, and the people who don't want to use shoddy MS software, and the people who spend more than $500 on a new PC.

There's a huge market out there for people smart enough to want the good stuff, and you're just admitting that crap sells too. We already knew that.

Re:Perfect!

[HeyLaughingBoy]

you're just admitting that crap sells too. We already knew that.

Crap is relative. Clayton Christensen has a lot to say about this.

You're building a product. For the sake of this argument, let's assume it's a software product, but that really doesn't matter in general.
You have something that says what you need to build and how good it has to be. That's probably called a specification document, or similar.

The primary driver of the product quality should be the specification and inspection of the output (or a process so tightly controlled that output doesn't need inspection, but this never happens in software).

A "good enough" programmer is one who can meet the spec. In some markets, exceeding the spec. improves the company's prospects; in others, it just wastes time and loses money.

Re:Perfect!

[Inthewire]

Given your post, you may be interested in John Walker's papers on AutoDesk.

Re:How does it compare to Windows XP Remote Assist

[Hal_Porter]

It looks like VNC on the client, and some proprietary code on their server so that rather than have VNC listen, it connects to their server which acts as a matchmaker. The advantage being that it can get through firewalls, since most of them don't block outgoing connections on port 443.

https://www.copilot.com/tech/

Re:A bit on the movie's costs, profits, and succes

[CodeBuster]

Maybe next time around he could get a group of 20 prospective interns and then, in a high-pressure software company version of the board room (Joel's office maybe), fire one of more of them each week until only one remains as Joel's Apprentice! Of course, finding type-A personality geeks who would appeal to the same audience as Trump and Martha might be difficult...

What-Unbelievability TV.

[Anonymous Coward]

"It seems like everything today is being turned into a film or reality show."

This is Taco, Slashdot editor working at his computer..."

code rush

[DarkClown]

this reminds me - does anyone know how to obtain a copy of 'coderush' - that documentary about the initial mozilla source launch? there used to be a site for it but it seems to have been scrapped....

Re:code rush

[MBHkewl]

Can be found @ Amazon (VHS format). -- Not available as of this writing.

Not Bad. Not Great.

[BinBoy]

There was almost no technical content and nothing dramatic happened. Code Rush and StartUp.com were more entertaining.

Re:Not Bad. Not Great.

[kisielk]

Got any links to information about "Code Rush" ? I couldn't find any info on a film with that name through my searches..

Re:Not Bad. Not Great.

[DNS-and-BIND]

It's a documentary, you f***ing tool. Documentaries aren't entertaining, they're educational. There are only about 4,000 movies out right now that fit your needs. May I suggest Gigli instead?

Re:Not Bad. Not Great.

[BinBoy]

I got my copy from Amazon.com about a year ago but they have none available right now. It's possible to sign up as a buyer there and wait for a copy. It could potentially show up on eBay too. Code Rush was originally shown on PBS. It's only available on VHS as far as I know so don't just search for DVD.

Re:Not Bad. Not Great.

[AdamWeeden]

I beg to differ. I like documentaries, and watch my fair share. If a documentary isn't entertaining (read: insightful, interesting, and informed) as well as educational, I'll fall asleep. I love learning, but if something isn't entertaining, it won't hold my interest.

Re:Not Bad. Not Great.

[Anonymous Coward]

I hope you're not a programmer with logic like that. StartUp.com was a documentary and was entertaining. This just wasn't as good.

Re:Not Bad. Not Great.

[DNS-and-BIND]

Let me guess...it was your type that lead to the death of the documentary form with the wild popularity of "Fast Food Nation" and "Farenheit 9/11".

Seriously, those two movies are the worst thing to happen to the genre, ever. For the next generation, nobody will trust anything a documentary says. All because a couple of asshats had an axe to grind.

Re:Not Bad. Not Great.

[AdamWeeden]

Let me guess...it was your type that lead to the death of the documentary form with the wild popularity of "Fast Food Nation" and "Farenheit 9/11".

Never seen the two of those (I avoid Michael Moore like the plague). I agree, people with axes to grind (i.e., not interested in neutral viewpoints, or presenting both sides of the story) are HIGHLY detremental to the genre. When I say "entertainment" I don't mean it in the Hollywood way where I need a fancy package on eveything, I simply mean it must keep me interested. For example "Devil's Playground" was a VASTLY entertaining documentary. No bells and whistles, just plain old educational, FASCINATING documentary.

Success of this movie..

[Anonymous Coward]

First, does this movie feature
* Attractive girls, elsewhere than on computer screens?
* Humour, understandable by people who aren't living in their parents' basement?
* Action, more thrilling than tracing a memory leak in C program?
* Adventure, filing post-outsourcing job applications to mcdonalds not included?
* Love, relationships to chat bots not counted?
* Message, other than that life sucks and your imaginary girlfriend doesn't?

Re:Success of this movie..

[ZachPruckowski]

First, does this movie feature
* Attractive girls, elsewhere than on computer screens?
* Humour, understandable by people who aren't living in their parents' basement?
* Action, more thrilling than tracing a memory leak in C program?
* Adventure, filing post-outsourcing job applications to mcdonalds not included?
* Love, relationships to chat bots not counted?
* Message, other than that life sucks and your imaginary girlfriend doesn't?

Slashdot doesn't have any of these, and yet people come here in droves. On a more serious note, there have been many movies that have done well without that, like "March of the Penguins". Obviously this isn't your typical blockbuster, but keep in mind that making a profit requires a lot fewer sales.

Re:Success of this movie..

[Anonymous Coward]

Love, relationships to chat bots not counted?

---------

Hi!

How do you do? What brings you to see me?

I'll be honest.. I can't stop thinking about you.

Why do you say you cannot stop thinking about me?

I just can't get you out of my mind. The way you talk. The way you LOOK. You're perfect.

Is it because of your plans that you say I am perfect?

Do you think I have ulterior motives? No I really just find you very attractive and I want to get to know you better. How about a movie tonight?

Is it because about a movie tonight that you came to me?

Well, whatever you want to do. We could have dinner and then take a drive along the coast. I can just imagine the moonlight in your eyes, like a dream!

What makes you believe eyes might want to have this dream?

I'm sorry? Am I offending you?

Maybe your life have something to do with this.

Listen, I have a good job and friends. Just because I like computers doesn't mean I can't please a lady.

Does it bother you that you like computers does not mean you cannot a lady?

You're one of those psychos that gets inside a man's head and fucks him up good, aren't you? Well forget it. I already went through this with my last girlfriend. I gotta go.. bitch.

I would appreciate it if you would watch your tongue!

Goodbye, and good riddance!

My secretary will send you a bill.

Re:Success of this movie..

[Anonymous Coward]

Um, march of the penguins had every element on that list except for attractive girls. In fact, I'd say its success was due to the skill with which it hit those very points. It's just harder to recognize them because there is a layer of abstraction.

Re:Success of this movie..

[gainellsbate.com]

You really don't want to equate people with Geeks.

Re:Success of this movie..

[zoeblade]

Does this movie feature attractive girls (elsewhere than on computer screens), humour, action, adventure, love (relationships to chat bots not counted), message (other than that life sucks and your imaginary girlfriend doesn't)?

What is it with so many people on this site acting like it's an integral part of being a geek to not have a partner or even be attractive? I have a lover, and she's also a computer geek. Just because we fell in love with each other doesn't stop us being geeks. It's possible to have a partner and still qualify as geek, is all I wanted to say.

Sorry, rant over.

Re:How does it compare to Windows XP Remote Assist

[Tim Browse]

How does it compare? Well, it actually works, for a start.

The last time I tried Remote Assistance to help my Dad who was 100 miles away, it said it couldn't find the host 'dadpc'. No kidding professor. If I have to set up static IP and external DNS for my dad's home PC and configure port forwarding on his router/firewall to use Remote Assist, I'll just install VNC thanks.

With CoPilot (as I understand it), both ends just act as a client, and you go through the CoPilot servers - so if you can make an outbound TCP/IP connection to their VNC servers (I'm guessing they support port 80 for obvious reasons), then you win, and nobody gets goo on them.

Mushroom

[Total Cult]

Mushroom! Mushroom!

Re:Mushroom

[DarkOx]

He the grand parent was a reference to Microsoft's Balmer trying to whip people up at a conference you fool.

Versa

[Tablizer]

Whatta coincidence. I have software that documents the making of a film.

Re:Versa

[Drantin]

Just out of curiosity, what is it like over there in Soviet Russia?

Re:What it's all about?

[Serveert]

In other words, it's exactly like go2mypc, VNC but fun, snappy, easy, bypasses firewalls and highly commoditized not to mention being 5 years old.

Re:warning

[Seumas]

And if it is your thing, give me a call and I'll cut you a deal.

Seriously though - not everything Joel writes is all that valuable or important or worthy of Slashdot frontpage real-estate. In fact, I've just gotten downright tired of articles by or about him or his thoughts. Maybe he's a nice guy and maybe he isn't. I don't know much about him beyond a few of his articles. I just know that there's a lot more content and many more voices out there that could be heard and shared with the bandwidth this guy gets on Slashdot and I'm getting Katz'd-out from it.

But let's not attack the guy on that level . . . Come on . . . In fact, it's not his fault Slashdot posts everything of, by, for or about him. You'd roll with it and use the opportunity too, if you had it. I blame the Slashdot staff, frankly.

But hey - at least they haven't given him his own editor/posting account yet like they did with Katz.

Easy to use, but performance isn't great.

[511pf]

I actually tried the Copilot product. It's very easy to use and works well over faster connections. Unfortunately, it doesn't work well over high latency/low bandwidth connections. I think this has more to do with basing the product on VNC than on anything they did wrong. I ended up with GoToMeeting, which works exceptionally well over slower connections. I was able to (usably) remote contol a 1920x1200 screen that was located on a home broadband connection across the US. Still, the movie looks very cool, and it's possible Copilot performance will improve with some tweaks. It would probably work well for people with small remote offices that have decent upstream connections.

Re:Joel

[Paleomacus]

So, do you have an actual complaint about /. linking to Joel's stuff or are you just jealous?

With a Group Like That

[Anonymous Coward]

This is probably the only movie produced this year without a sex scene!

Re:With a Group Like That

[Musteval]

Sadly, no.

I don't know about the coding

[penguin-collective]

You've got to hand it to Joel: regardless of what you may think of his programming skills, he does have the art of shameless self-promotion down to a science.

Re:I don't know about the coding

[sauge]

I second that! And I thought I was a good self-promoter!

Re:I don't know about the coding

[kurosawdust]

Shameless my ass: Joel ingeniously created a way for him to educate interested and intelligent people about the software development process and unobtrusively promote his business at the same time. If he had advertised "shamelessly", nobody would have paid any attention. If anything, it's advertising as mutual exchange, something that is sorely missing in our society today, and isn't even anywhere near as shameless as a simple highway billboard.

Re:I don't know about the coding

[penguin-collective]

Joel ingeniously created a way for him to educate interested and intelligent people about the software development process and unobtrusively promote his business at the same time.

That statement presumes that his advice actually unconditionally works for the kind of software development most organizations need to do, which just isn't true. Neither his experience nor his products are representative of most software development.

Re:I don't know about the coding

[kurosawdust]

That statement presumes that his advice actually unconditionally works for the kind of software development most organizations need to do, which just isn't true. Neither his experience nor his products are representative of most software development.

I'm trying to find where a reasonable person (or hell, even an unreasonable one) would come to the conclusion that my statement presumes that his advice works 100% of the time, and I just can't see it, so congrats - nice troll.

But yeah, you're right - his advice doesn't work for a majority of software developers, so clearly his columns are shameless advertising. Flash embeds roaring across the screen imploring you to buy Mountain Dew have nothing on that damned Joel Spolsky and his eloquent Extreme Programming critiques!

Re:I don't know about the coding

[penguin-collective]

I'm trying to find where a reasonable person (or hell, even an unreasonable one) would come to the conclusion that my statement presumes that his advice works 100% of the time, and I just can't see it, so congrats - nice troll.

I was objecting to your statement that Joel "educate[s] interested and intelligent people about the software development process". The term "software development process" refers to a well-defined body of knowledge and skills, and Joel doesn't educate people about it (but he does write an entertaining blog).

his columns are shameless advertising

No, what I consider "shameless self-promotion" is hiring a documentary film-maker to film interns working on a software development project at your company and then selling the resulting DVDs.

Joel Spolsky and his eloquent Extreme Programming critiques!

Indeed. The quickest way to join the ranks of highly-paid self-proclaimed computer gurus is to pick a fight with the best of them, asserting that the latest silver bullet doesn't work. Bonus points if you do it eloquently.

Re:I don't know about the coding

[kurosawdust]

I was objecting to your statement that Joel "educate[s] interested and intelligent people about the software development process". The term "software development process" refers to a well-defined body of knowledge and skills, and Joel doesn't educate people about it (but he does write an entertaining blog).

You're right. That's what I think of when I read articles about testing applications under the Turkish version of Windows 98 SE and related issues - how unbelievably entertaining.

No, what I consider "shameless self-promotion" is hiring a documentary film-maker to film interns working on a software development project at your company and then selling the resulting DVDs.

Then you have no clue what "shameless self-promotion" is. Nobody who buys this DVD is interested in Fog Creek software - they want to see an actual documentary of the process of bringing a piece of software from idea to execution, of which there are no examples currently available (I've never seen 'Code Rush', but it's out of print, and no, startup.com doesn't even come close.) If he was so hell-bent on "shameless self-promotion", why on earth would he miss an opportunity to include Fog Creek demo software on the DVD??

Indeed. The quickest way to join the ranks of highly-paid self-proclaimed computer gurus is to pick a fight with the best of them, asserting that the latest silver bullet doesn't work. Bonus points if you do it eloquently.

No. The quickest way to become a highly respected computer 'pundit' is to write eloquently about topics that aren't being covered elswhere, or are being covered inadequately. Spolsky did this by giving readers an insight into what actually goes on with the day-to-day workings of a retail software developer. Of course, if you were at all interested in facts, you'd realize that his extreme programming critiques came well after he got popular. You can also feel free to compare how many of his columns are posted on slashdot versus how many of John C. Dvorak's are.

In both of your posts, you've failed to make one single solitary coherent argument, and you either live in a cave, or you simply wouldn't know "shameless self-promotion" if it kicked you in the nuts. But hey, the quickest way to get a +4 Funny is to pick a fight with a respected, knowledgeable columnist who provides burgeoning software entrepreneurs with more information on how to start their own business than any other columnist I know, and asserting something brainless so long as it contradicts what the public figure says and/or puts him down. Bonus karma points if it's eloquent. (No points deducted if it's completely devoid of rational argument).

The product violates Microsoft's EULA

[Anonymous Coward]

detailed here

Great, so I can pay to watch what I do every day

[Anonymous Coward]

This film is something I do every day... do I really want to watch it? I guess the only difference is that they'll probably cut out all of the meaningless web surfing, porn viewing, and IM'ing that I do at work...

Does it show things that are more important, like if the product actually makes money, or them going through the bug-fixing and customer service phase where their customers (if they have any) are screaming at them because of a bug, or they have a sales person yelling at them to get a feature in because they already closed a big deal telling the customer that they already have the feature in the software???

Re:Joel

[Seumas]

Why would I bother going to JoelOnSoftware anymore when Slashdot is practically his site's RSS feed?

Re:Joel

[Seumas]

I'll tell you waht I'm jealous about -- I'm jealous of that sweet UID you have. Bastard.

$19.95? Hell no, I'm going to download it

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll just wait for it to show up on BitTorrent somewhere. Wait a second, somehow I'm sensing an inner conflict...

Re:$19.95? Hell no, I'm going to download it

[RobinH]

Actually, in this case I might consider paying for a torrent download. Just not $19.95.

Shirt

[pin_gween]

Have you seen the shirt that says

Programmer (n): An organism that can turn caffeine into code.

Re:Shirt

[poopdeville]

That, of course, is a plagiarized version of a quote by Paul Erdos, who described mathematicians as "machine[s] for turning coffee into theorems."

Re:Shirt

[Anonymous Coward]

Its not plagiarized!

The quote has been refactored.

Educational tool?

[harborpirate]

All I can say is I'm going to make sure to catch this ASAP - to try and determine whether I can send it out to family members so they can finally understand what exactly it is that I do every day.

Re:Educational tool?

[fyrie]

Too bad that my mod points expired just this evening. I never thought about this angle.

Re:Educational tool?

[MillionthMonkey]

I just tell them to watch Superman III. It's just like that.

Re:Educational tool?

[Traa]

Send them the book Microserfs by Douglas Coupland. Great read for you and your family if you ever want to explain what it is you do every day. From a review: "A hilarious but frighteningly real look at geek life in the '90's". Extra bonus if you actually happend to live in Silicon Valley (not a requirement). Heh, if you have been an engineer for more then a decade this book is going to freak you out as much as it is going to make you love your lifestyle.

Enjoy.

Re:Educational tool?

[professorfalcon]

That's what Office Space is for.

Re:Educational tool?

[elrous0]

I just tell them to watch Superman III. It's just like that.

As a black programmer with a Ferrari, I would dispute that. I would never build a supercomputer that could be taken out by a splash of acid. That's just bad design.

-Eric

Re:Educational tool?

[MillionthMonkey]

As a black programmer with a Ferrari, I would dispute that. I would never build a supercomputer that could be taken out by a splash of acid.

I bet as a black programmer with a Ferrari, you must have to put up with a lot of attitude from racist white people and cops who assume you got it by embezzling half cents from your employer's payroll system. Otherwise they figure no black man would ever be driving around in such a nice car.

(BTW could you please post the code you used for the half-cent thing because I need to do some Christmas shopping.)

Re:Educational tool?

[hritcu]

You really got me thinking about this. Is there any movie that would make my family understand what I am doing ... but without teaching them to use a computer first ... and then teaching them to program ... and then teaching them to slashdot ? :))

Re:Educational tool?

[elrous0]

BTW could you please post the code you used for the half-cent thing because I need to do some Christmas shopping.

Get it from Michael Bolton. And, trust me on this, don't ask him "Are you related to *THE* Michael Bolton?"

-Eric

Re:What it's all about?

[Seumas]

Nice. Joel and Fogcreek have yet another frontpage Slashdot advertisement, then a comment about Joel and Fogcreek's products gets moderated as "offtopic" in that very same article thread. What the fuck?! It's no more an "advertisement" than the other 500 Joel on Software articles posted to Slashdot.

Re:How does it compare to Windows XP Remote Assist

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/using/helpandsu pport/learnmore/remoteassist/viaemail.mspx

Maybe it will be useful in the future.

No need to open ports, either.

Finally, a reality show my WIFE will hate!!!

[AngryNick]

Thank you, thank you, thank you!!

After years of putting up with the crappy reality shows that my wife likes to watch, this will make the perfect gift for her! Sweet payback for all the nights I've had to endure her [bleeping] "Real World" addiction with its 20-year old mindless babble.

nouns

[pr0nbot]

Had trouble parsing the article title... four nouns! Gak!

Re:nouns

[Anonymous Coward]

Noun... verb... adjective... noun...

Bah, maybe the other two are with the WMDs.

Re:nouns

[pr0nbot]

film = noun/verb/adjective?
documents = plural noun/verb?
software = noun/adjective?
creation = noun/verb?

I'm just saying it took my brain a few passes to find the verb!

Re:Great, so I can pay to watch what I do every da

[AutopsyReport]

This film is something I do every day... do I really want to watch it?

Perhaps. You know, most documentaries (and movies) that are successful are usually based on things we experience every day (bad presidency, McDonald's, relationships, work, et al). And given the fact that the movie industry is huge, I'd probably guess that a lot of people would want to watch something like this. I'm not sure how this documentary is any different from the rest, except that someone has finally done a documentary on your specific line of work.

Seen This? Is it Educational for Groups?

[fyrie]

We have a monthly training budget at work and I've been tempted but reluctant to request it. Is this pure entertainment, or is it worthwhile for maturing dev groups to watch?

Bugs are a way of life?

[Peter Cooper]

In the video they mention an instance where a bug crept in and screwed up their program. "We finally traced it down to one tiny little bug." "No developer likes a bug to show up in their code, it's just a way of life." Not heard of agile test driven development?

Re:Bugs are a way of life?

[110010001000]

Agile test driven development produces zero bugs?

Re:Bugs are a way of life?

[MillionthMonkey]

Here at Agilent we love agile test driven development. Whenever a Dilbert strip comes out making fun of it, someone here Photoshops an "NT" onto the end of "AGILE" and forwards it around.

Re:Bugs are a way of life?

[Peter Cooper]

If the tests are deep enough, yes. Of course, you get plenty of bugs along the way, but at least you know where they are and don't have to spend "days" hunting them down.

Geek Mystique?

[mveloso]

Writing software is a lot like making sausages. The process is messy, ugly, and you'll probably see a whole lot of stuff happen that you rather wouldn't have known about.

The main difference between the two is that at the end of the sausage-making process you have a yummy treat. At the end of the software process, all you have is...software.

Re:Geek Mystique?

[byteherder]

Writing software is a lot like making sausages. The process is messy, ugly, and you'll probably see a whole lot of stuff happen that you rather wouldn't have known about.

The main difference between the two is that at the end of the sausage-making process you have a yummy treat. At the end of the software process, all you have is...software.

Well, I put software in my computer all the time. If I put sausage in there all I get is a big puddle of grease under my case.

Re:Geek Mystique?

[Anonymous Coward]

The main difference between the two is that at the end of the sausage-making process you have a yummy treat. At the end of the software process, all you have is...software.

At the end of the software process, you have a working program.

At the end of the sausage-making process you have blended dead animal flesh stuffed in its own intestines. Oh, plus all the other body parts you couldn't manage to fit in there.

You're trying to make the sausage sound *better*?

Stupid Program, Stupid Movie

[brunes69]

Their goal turned out to be the creation of a piece of software later called Fog Creek Copilot, which would help techies fix customers' or relatives' computers by giving them remote access to the ailing machines.

Great idea! Take an idea that already exists, in several variations, and create yet another incompatible implementation. When it fails, you can always fall back on the movie!

Oh well, they were only interns anyways.

Re:Stupid Program, Stupid Movie

[wootest]

Copilot uses VNC but has some extra software around it to facilitate charging and yet some to provide tunneling and encrypted connection. In effect, it's no more incompatible than any other pimped-up VNC server you could set up - it's certainly less incompatible than any non-VNC server! But I don't think that Copilot is to be compared on equal ground with remote connection software, because if you're using it as that it's clearly going to suck, paying day passes all the time.

I think that Copilot is a good service because it definitely fills a need. Let's say your uncle calls you and says "hey, this program keeps crashing on me" or "I can't figure out how to do stuff in this program". In a minute or two, without prior arrangements, you can tell him to go to a web site, type in a number, download a program and all of a sudden he's got you helping him and controlling the computer. You haven't left the phone. You certainly haven't spent 15 minutes (conservative estimate) setting up software, arranging secure connections for him just-in-case and making sure that the damn thing works across firewalls. In a situation like this it's a godsend.

I'm not very hot for any other Fog Creek product, I haven't ever needed to use it (thankfully) and I'm certainly not getting kickbacks for saying this. I'm also not saying that it's precisely what you use to control one of your boxes from another one of your boxes, because it isn't. I'm just saying that it's potentially a very useful product that looks to be done right and that it has earned the attention it gets, and if you're knocking it as an incompatible implementation of remote controlling, I think you've completely missed the point.

Re:Stupid Program, Stupid Movie

[nacturation]

I think that Copilot is a good service because it definitely fills a need. Let's say your uncle calls you and says "hey, this program keeps crashing on me" or "I can't figure out how to do stuff in this program". In a minute or two, without prior arrangements, you can tell him to go to a web site, type in a number, download a program and all of a sudden he's got you helping him and controlling the computer.

Even better: uncle pays $X/hour for the time spent to fix the problem. The n * $X in charges at the end of it get split 50/50 between the person helping and the service provider. All those who loathe helping friends and family who abuse their knowledge now have a way to profit from it. Let the helper pick the default base rate, or set it higher. It's a win-win.

Re:Stupid Program, Stupid Movie

[brunes69]

You can already do all this with GoToMyPC.com, and i t is much simpler to use and more featureful.

Stupid TV commercials aside, it is a good product.

And as well, Remote Assistance in XP is already there and free. And it will open holes in your router via UPNP automatically if it needs to, and will email or IM a link to you to click on. It is very slick and reasonably secure, and from your description in paragraph two, I can see you have never used it, since with it "you never have to leave the phone", or "spend 15 minutes setting up software".

Anyways, my point still stands that FogCreek knowingly entered a crowded market segment very late in the game, they either need something head and shoulders above everyone else, or they will fail miserably. And Copilot certainly does not fit the bill.

excellent book - pulizer prize winner even

[acomj]

The book is excellent. Won a pulizer prize even. Although its a little too honest for those looking to get into the field.

How the author got acess like that to Data General I have no idea. I couldn't even get into the building to pick someone up.

The author also won a pulizer prize.

Re:excellent book - pulizer prize winner even

[hritcu]

Wanted to ask you something ...
Did you know the book won a Pulitzer prize? ;)

Snaaaaaaake!

[idonthack]

Snaaaake! SNAAAAKE! AAAHHH IT'S A SNAAAAAKE!!!!!!!
---
It's not a lie. It's the truth with lossy compression.
Generated by SlashdotRndSig via GreaseMonkey

Re:Snaaaaaaake!

[sunwukong]

Oh, that's just my pet snake Reggie.

MTV's The Real Word Meets Software Development

[Anonymous Coward]

'Nuff Said.

Fake Fake Fake!. No software company is like this! No actual project is like this! Maybe some of the dotcoms were, but we all know how that went.

mod parent up, please

[jlusk4]

Damn. Where are my mod points when I need 'em?

Right on.

I sometimes wonder if the future of the American software developer is to become a nattering nabob.

If you can't code quality software at $1.75/hour, TALK a good game.

John.

not meant for already-initiated geeks

[CoughDropAddict]

I was actually just watching this movie a second ago. It didn't quite live up to my expectations.

This movie is primarily about geeks geeking out. If you've never been around that, you will probably find the movie more interesting than I did. For example, a good ten minutes were devoted to the interns discussing whether they could jump out their window to the next building in case of a fire. If you are a geek who performs thought experiments with friends/co-workers all the time, you already know what that's like.

This movie is not about sharing insights about how to develop good software. You shouldn't think of the movie as an extension of Joel's column. Opportunities for venturing into that realm are abandoned. For example, all the interns are given a stopwatch and a stack of computer books their first day. Later on, one of the interns admits that he has no idea what the stopwatch is for. Unfortunately, the movie never gives us the answer to that question. I was wondering if it had something to do with user interface design, like quantifying the irritation of having to wait around for software by starting the stopwatch when you see the hourglass. But we never find out.

There is also not much technical content. We get only a few details about the project and its technology.

The biggest disappointment was the camera work. The footage shakes around a lot, especially in shots of computer screens you're trying to read. Far too much of the film is overexposed -- Joel's face is often half-white. This happened throughout the movie, and was visually distracting. This ultimately left the film feeling somewhat amateurish.

For the good: Joel Spolsky and Paul Graham were both engaging as always. They're the kind of guys that manage to make almost every word they say intriguing. The employees and interns are likable people you don't get tired of hearing from. You get a chance to see some interesting decisions, like deciding to pay $10k for "copilot.com" instead of using the inferior name "sidepilot" (though we never hear anyone justify why having the .com is a must -- what's wrong with "copilot.fogcreek.com?")

Re:not meant for already-initiated geeks

[Pat__]

> what's wrong with "copilot.fogcreek.com?

Was copilot.com worth $10K ? i donnow, but at least there is a reason.

Joel explained it somewhere that they needed a website name that you can easilly read on the phone to the person you want to help without having to spell it for them or risk that they'll get the address wrong.

Re:not meant for already-initiated geeks

[Suppafly]

I kind of liked the sidepilot name better anyway. Atleast there wouldnt be all that nonsense of making sure to preface it with fogcreek everything. Instead of always saying Fogcreek Copilot, people could say sidepilot.

Re:not meant for already-initiated geeks

[ksheff]

so in other words, it's closest rival is a DVD of grass growing in real time.

Very nice Zonk...

[Linker3000]

Fancy re-doing the write-up again, with proper grammar and sentence constructon?

Re:Very nice Zonk...

[Linker3000]

Bugger! 'construction'

That's bullshit

[melted]

Launch MSN Messenger. Ask your dad to ask you for remote assistance. Use his desktop transparently. Disconnect. Works every time, firewall or not. I've fixed PCs halfway across the globe with that thing.

Re:That's bullshit

[Tim Browse]

Yeah I've tried MSN Messenger. It always says that my Dad's version of Messenger did not support Remote Assistance. Never mind that he was running the exact same version as me.

I'm not actually an idiot - I did try the obvious way first.

But of course, I'm talking bullshit, and it 'works every time'.

Haha, nice try!

[Hikaru79]

You almost had me fooled, thinking this was an unscripted, real documentary. Then I saw that there was a girl involved. Everyone knows there's no female programmers. Nice try, tricking us like that -- you didn't think we'd fall for it, did you?

My Review of the Film

[UncleDirtae]

I wrote a review of the film over on my blog.

be sure to catch the sequel

[Lord Ender]

Wombat'd: 12 Days With Finance and Accounting

Sounds soooo interesting to me...

Re:Joel

[tourvil]

Has he topped Katz yet?

Well I didn't notice any "post-Columbine" references, so I'd say he hasn't topped Katz yet. :)

Disgraceful

[Anonymous Coward]

This is proof that programming should be confined to the privacy of ones own bedroom. What happens behind closed doors is nobody elses business.

The thought of those guys sitting around together programming C# makes me feel sick in stomach. Mind you, if they were hex editing or trying to hack a mainframe it might be ok.

Re:Maybe so, but...

[symbolic]

I believe there are still creations that are genuine(from the heart), and completely contrived manufactured (anything that comes out of hollywood these days). This trailer reminds be a little of Startup.com, which I thought was a reasonably good documentary. It wasn't just about the coding, or the business, it was about the people. That's what I think may very well make this effort every bit as interesting.

Why watch work?

[c0d3r]

Man, why watch a movie about work on the weekend? I can understand office space, but not this.

Re:A bit on the movie's costs, profits, and succes

[Anonymous Coward]

The trailer looked like it was nothing but a glorified advertisement on why his company is the kewlest.

What a bunch of crap.

Well...

[SuperKendall]

Of course, finding type-A personality geeks who would appeal to the same audience as Trump and Martha might be difficult...

On the plus side, a team of geeks could probably come up with a half decent Star Wars promo display.

A cool episode idea when you get down to five or so would be to give them allBig Wheels set to leave a train of toliet paper behind them, dress them in Tron outfits and play real-life lightcycles. That would be pretty awesome to behold.

I guess the catch phrase to let people go could be something like "I'm sorry . your process had been terminated.

Here is my favourite on the subject ...

[gummyb34r]

... of hacking ( by RMS def - "Playfully doing something difficult, whether useful or not, that is hacking.")

October Sky

It is based on the true story, a group of kids hack their way into building a rocket. An inspiring movie.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0132477/

Re:How does it compare to Windows XP Remote Assist

[alphakappa]

How does it compare? Well, it actually works, for a start.

Interesting. You haven't used CoPilot, but you claim that it Actually Works (TM). You had trouble using Remote Assistance once and you claim that it's crappy even though you have no idea how to use it. (Refer to the reply to your post that explains that you can use Windows Messenger to do it - yes, I've done it for friends and I've never had an issue - firewall, or no firewall)

You figured that since Remote Assistance is a MS feature, it must be crappy by default. Sorry, no luck there.

next week...

[Robocoastie]

and coming next week the dramatic amazing documentary of paint peeling! Yes you too can own a piece of history as the life cycle of a can of ordinary paint goes from production to application to aging and finally peeling off!

Slashdot Redefines Capitalisation Again

[Anonymous Coward]

In Other News, Slashdots Brilliant Capitalisation Technique Hits Once Again! Now, Is It About The Creation Of A "Film Documents Software"? No, It's A Film Documenting The Creation Of Software! You Ain't No Geek If You Can't Decipher This! Capitalisation, Wtf! tHIS Is The True Revenge Of The Nerds! Look Ma, All Caps! Sooo Purrty!

Documented Creation!

[Conanymous Award]

So, now we have a video document of creation! However, whether the creation was performed by Intelligent Design, remains to be seen. Can test this software?

+1 LOL

[TuringTest]

(I run out of mod points yesterday).

Coding isn't everything

[Aceticon]

I feel like an old man (and i'm only 32) saying this, but here goes...

Well, if programming is just a source of income for you, then the effort you put into it, and thus the quality of your code, probably won't be as good as the code produced by someone else, to whom programming is a hobby or a passion. In other words, if you actually enjoy programming, you will likely be a better programmer than someone who doesn't.

Two points:

1. Motivaded, gifted programmers can make technically superior solutions. Unfortunately technically superior solutions do not mean that the application actually does what the users need it to do. The truth is, the quality of the code by itself will not make a project successful if other things are not up to the same standaards. Code quality is only a real measure of technical prowness in the beginning of one's career - later more is expected from you than just being a good coder. Also note that coding by itself is easilly outsourced.
2. If you code all your life it gets progressivelly more boring. One is faced again and again with the same problems, only in different situations. In this case you either go into analysis or another senior (semi-technical) position (and thus start working on the other things that make a project successful - though doing little or no coding), or you get more and more specialized in an specific area of programming (to justify you career progress, meaning increasing salary and responsibilities), or you stagnate in your career (eventually being replaced by a 20 y.o. equally gifted coder than can do 80h/week), or you go into management (no comment here ;) )

So yeah, either you stop being a pure coder and keep the enthusiasm (there are always new challenges if you don't limit yourself), or you keep doing the same thing over and over and it looses much of it's appeal, or you have a goldfish-like memory and every new project looks fresh and new for you even if you did something very similar in countless previous projects.

Sorry to disapoint you, but programming is like other professional occupations, either you are not driven to do the best you can, go as far as you can and keep trying to see what's beyond the next hill (in which case how did you ever became a good coder), or you outgrow what got you into it to begin with (coding) or you get progressivelly more bored doing it.

Still, there's always open source :)

the submitter forgot

[Anonymous Coward]

... to post the torrent. Where is it?

Someone mentioned it.....

[wpiman]

is passing in this thread- but Office Space was the best documentary I have ever seen.

Seen It?

[crashcodesdotcom]

I was notified that my copy shipped last week. I haven't gotten it yet, but I'm hopefull that it will arrive soon. Has anyone got their copy yet and seen it? If so, what'd ya think?

Thanks

Silly rabbit, programmers don't have personalities

[elrous0]

an engaging film that focuses more on the personalities of the people than on the technology,

This is where I knew I was being lied to.

-Eric

movie about open source?

[peter303]

I am trying to remember this movie about 3-4 years about some big computer mogul (Bill Gates type) hires this idealist college student. The evil company is planting some trojan in the software to take control of all the customers' computers. At the end the programmer survives and uplaods some video to broadcast TV about the evil mogul's plans.
Dose anyone remember this movie?

Re:movie about open source?

[mattpalmer1086]

Are you talking about Antitrust?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0218817/

Re:movie about open source?

[Pantero Blanco]

I saw it and liked it, despite the fact that it was political (and exaggerative in many ways) as hell. I don't hear much about it outside of CS geek circles, so it doesn't seem to have caught on with the normals.

Startup.com

[peter303]

There was this documentary about the dot.com frenzy called Startup.com . It followed the founders of an actual company that was writing software to give local governments web forms to handle citizen business. It did get a product out, but a rival beat them to it. And the founders didnt make that much money.

Re:How does it compare to Windows XP Remote Assist

[Tim Browse]

Refer to the reply to your post that explains that you can use Windows Messenger to do it - yes, I've done it for friends and I've never had an issue - firewall, or no firewall

Refer to my reply.

You figured that since Remote Assistance is a MS feature, it must be crappy by default. Sorry, no luck there.

No, I'm not an anti-MS slashbot - I decided it didn't work because it didn't work whenever I tried it. So sorry, no luck there.

Re:How does it compare to Windows XP Remote Assist

[Tim Browse]

Yes, I tried that after the Messenger route failed. That's when it told me that it couldn't resolve the hostname of my Dad's PC - as I said, no big surprise there. I assume that method's for a LAN/Corporate environment.

human behaviour

[nazsco]

you clearly knows nothing about human behaviour.

had you changed the subject with the comment, everyone would click it to read.

if it was "go apple", then since this is not a apple-praise-post, all the mac drollers would click and then fall into you trollishnes.

but no. you had to say it right out eh? hope gnaa don't give you that troll scout badge, kid

Re:A bit on the movie's costs, profits, and succes

[Anonymous Coward]

so where's the torrent?