Nintendo To Dominate Next Generation?

Via GameSetWatch, an editorial on the site Firing Squad suggesting that Nintendo is poised for a gaming industry coup. Their unique controller and appeal to casual gamers, the author posits, will turn the status quo on its head. From the article: "The cheapness of the console will help it sell and it's unlikely that Nintendo will face production shortages since it won't use exotic and difficult-to-make components. With a large installed owner base, more developers will be inclined to take a shot at it, publishers will feel pressured to release key titles (like Madden) for the Revolution regardless of their past GameCube experience. The controller is standard enough to work for most titles - so Xbox and PlayStation games will most likely work on the Revolution without major trouble, yet that same controller offers unique features that will be difficult to replicate for Microsoft's and Sony's consoles."

Comments

Look at it this way:

[Txiasaeia]

They've said all along that "standard" controllers will work with the rev (crossing my fingers for native compatibility with my wavebird). So the next Prince of Persia game will be released for all three next-gen platforms, right? But Electroplankton Revo or Tokyo Laser Symphony Revo will only work with the revo's unique controller - playing games built for the revo controller on a PS3 or an Xbox360 is like playing Donkey Konga with the standard gamecube controller.

Anyway, it makes sense that the revo will get independent and interesting games, if only because of the controller, while the other two consoles will get the same old, same old. Not that there's anything wrong with a new NHL game for the Xbox360 or PS3;)

Re:Look at it this way:

[Phantasmo]

You'll certainly be able to play Gamecube games on your Revolution using your current Wavebird. However, I'd be surprised if Revolution games would be able to use the Gamecube controller connectors. By implementing the "classic" controller as a shell over the Revolution controller, you'd get the gyro features in addition to standard control sticks and shoulder buttons. Also, Nintendo likes money so why not force people to buy a controller + shell?

Re:Look at it this way:

[Fred Or Alive]

Actually, the model that was shown at last year's E3 had a full set of Gamecube controller and memory card ports on the side. I'd assume you could use Gamecube controllers, at least for Gamecube games.

Nintendo presumabley continuing there tradition of being behind the times, keeping legacy controller ports is so last generation. :-)

Re:Look at it this way:

[badasscat]

However, I'd be surprised if Revolution games would be able to use the Gamecube controller connectors.

You apparently have not seen this photo.

It's not 100% confirmation of anything, but Nintendo took this photo themselves and they didn't do it for nothing. They're showing you something here - and what else would it be than that you can use your regular old GameCube controllers with the Revolution?

Re:Look at it this way:

[Fred Or Alive]

I realised after making my comment, he does know this. He says "I'd be surprised if Revolution games would be able to use the Gamecube controller connectors ". ie: He knows the Revolution has Gamecube connectors, but he thinks they're only for Gamecube (and downloaed / emulated?) games.

Personally I think it depends on what form this "controller shell" takes, if it's similar to the Gamecube controller, I'd guess "shell" using games might be able to use Gamecube controllers. Plus some Revolution games might use wired peripherals (eg. the DK Bongos).

Re:Look at it this way:

[thatguywhoiam]

They've said all along that "standard" controllers will work with the rev (crossing my fingers for native compatibility with my wavebird). So the next Prince of Persia game will be released for all three next-gen platforms, right? But Electroplankton Revo or Tokyo Laser Symphony Revo will only work with the revo's unique controller - playing games built for the revo controller on a PS3 or an Xbox360 is like playing Donkey Konga with the standard gamecube controller.

Keep in mind - there is probably very little standing in Microsoft's/Sony's way if they want to go and make their own Revolution controller knock-off. Big N surely has patents on implementation methods but Sony in particular is famous for finding ways around that. Just food for thought.

Re:Look at it this way:

[Anonymous Coward]

Nintendo has already announced that the traditional-style attachment would be simlilar in interface to the GameCube controller. This doesn't preclude development of controller attachments in other styles.

I expect to see third-party (if not official) attachments in classic formats, like NES, SNES, and N64 styles, much like the SNES-style digital pad that Hori released for the GameCube. Of course, the possibilities that have everyone salivating are the ones that use one or two controllers in a steering wheel/flight yoke/Virtual On twinstick formation, gun-shaped attachments, etc. Even a fishing reel attachment would be a natural option.

Re:Look at it this way:

[demeteloaf]

>> So the next Prince of Persia game will be released for all three next-gen platforms, right?

Unfortunately, I don't really see that many multi-console games getting to the revolution. Nintendo has taken the stance that they want their console to be "unique," and so they are opting out of stuff like HD support and the hardware capacity to handle the graphics of games that can run on Xbox 360 and PS3 in favor of a cheaper price point, and a very unique controller...

However, In my mind at least, this leads to a much larger gap between the various next-gen consoles... In the current generation of consoles, all the consoles have (reasonably) similar hardware specs, and ports can look reasonably similar. With the next-gen consoles, the revolution will (almost) always have a very noticable drop off in graphics from the PS3 and Xbox 360 version. I know if I had a rev and another console, i would always buy the PS3 or Xbox 360 version of whatever game came out... just because i want to be able to play it on my HDTV.

To me at least, i see devlopers making a lot of the mainstream games PS3 and Xbox 360 only, and when they want to experiment with a more unique game, that's when they'll develop for the revolution...

This isn't to say there won't be some great games on the revolution, i just don't see many multi-console ports coming.

Re:Look at it this way:

[willfe]

Meh. I dunno about that.

I'm not exactly "chomping at the bit" to get my hands on a 360 or a PS3 (and not just for political reasons). The beasts are too pricey. They yet again promise nothing new over the current generation except for whizzier-bangier graphics and high-definition output.

Have you priced a high-definition television lately? Aiming a game at HDTV targets just isn't worth it yet.

It just ain't worth it to me yet to upgrade. I still buy (used) Gamecube games because they're fun and because they look and sound great. I love my wireless controllers (go Wavebird), and I find the Gamecube controller design to be very comfortable in my hands (Katamari Damacy, on the PS2, wears my hands out after an hour or so, but I can play Eternal Darkness or Super Monkey Ball for hours with no discomfort).

On the specs front, I don't think we're getting a "Gamecube 1.5" here anyway. Not that specs are incredibly important, but I'm certain we can expect upgrades in CPU, GPU, sound, and memory. It will probably hold its own very well against the PS3 and 360, especially if Nintendo can provide an easy, fast, high-quality development environment for Revolution. If Nintendo's console is cheaper, too, they're going to wipe the walls with Microsoft and Sony.

Re:Look at it this way:

[justchris]

The number of ports Rev gets depends on how many people buy Revs. If there are 10 million Revs out there before the end of 2006, 3rd parties will begin porting games to Rev and adding extra features.

I find that awesome graphics interest me less and less these days. I'd buy a game with awesome features on the Rev over a game with awesome graphics on the PS3/360, even if the graphics are better (which they will only be if you actually have an HDTV, which I hope to purchase sometime this year). But if the game has the same features and same controls, then I'd easily buy the 360/PS3 version, cause, if everything else is equal, then whichever is slightly better wins.

So, the best we can hope for is better ports to the Rev.

Re:Look at it this way:

[justchris]

Don't forget the Golf Club. Sell a golf game, and a club with added force feedback tech so when you change what club you're using in game, the club actually feels different, and every wanna be corporate big wig will have a Revolution in their office to practice their putts.

Re:Look at it this way:

[Anonymous Coward]

Considering that GameCube games can apparently use the Revolution controllers when run on a Revolution (see Twilight Princess), I see no reason that Revolution games wouldn't be able to use GameCube controllers.

It's certainly be nice if WaveBirds worked without having to plug the adapters in though.

Re:Look at it this way:

[Elranzer]

"Big N surely has patents on implementation methods but Sony in particular is famous for finding ways around that. Just food for thought."

Maybe you forgot what happened to Sony in regards to the dual-shock fiasco??

Nintendo 1985?

[Comatosis]

This could be a good sign, maybe we will see Nintendo go out on top all over again, sort of reminds me of 1985, except this time the market is strong. I do like the controller idea and plus if this Nintendo ON thing comes to, they might be lucky enough to at least make the #2 spot if not #2. Go ninty!

Re:Nintendo 1985?

[Anonymous Coward]

Seems like you're still / preoccupied / with nineteen / nineteen / nineteen eighty-five (woo hoo hoo!)

Re:Nintendo 1985?

[ThePolkapunk]

Nintendo ON was a hoax.

Re:Nintendo 1985?

[kefkahax]

Nintendo has a good track record of being a phenomenal gaming company. They invented the first of many types of games you see today. Even if you don't like them, you should thank them. My personaly opinion on the failure of the 64 and Cube is that their target audience was too low. They were making "kiddie" games like windwaker while the "kiddies" wanted to run around a city stealing cars, selling drugs and murdering civilians. I think with the 'Revolution' Nintendo is getting back on the right track, it's also my opinion that the Nintendo 'Revolution' and the Sony PS3 are going to put Microsoft's XBox 360 in a tough position. Microsoft doesn't have any games that are xbox-only that rock, spare Halo.

Re:Nintendo 1985?

[Anonymous Coward]

Gears of War? Mass Effect?

Re:Nintendo 1985?

[Anonymous Coward]

"My personaly opinion on the failure of the 64 and Cube is that their target audience was too low."

N64 outsold Xbox, GameCube, Dreamcast, and Saturn.

GameCube outsold Dreamcast and Saturn, and still has the real potential to outrun the Xbox (although catching up to the N64's sales before the Revolution took over would be a near-impossible task). For the holiday season, GameCube alone sold many more units than Xbox, and sold almost as many units as Xbox and Xbox 360 combined.

I personally do not see either system as a failure, although I'm sure Nintendo would like to be on top in terms of home consoles again, to match their status in both the handheld and overall scheme of things.

A couple of prerequesites

[Sockatume]

This depends heavily on the public being interested in the system. Nintendo were able to churn out GCs super-cheap for years without taking over the market. Of course, the PS2 and Xbox were already around in large numbers and getting price cuts by that stage- a £130 Revolution going up against a limited stock of £300 360s and PS3s would have a more impressive advantage.

This will also depend on the public, especially non-gamers, "getting" the controller, which will require really good in-store demos.

There's always the risk that good value will backfire in the face of percieved value - namely, that the Revolution will be looked upon as cheap and underpowered in comparison to its competitors.

Finally, there's the assumption that the Revolution will use no exotic, hard-to-produce components. You've got to wonder if the little motion-sensor widgets for pitch/roll/yaw are going to be a rate limiting step in production.

Re:A couple of prerequesites

[MBCook]

I agree with the author that Nintendo is in a good position. You mention the possibility that Ninteno will be seen a cheap, but I don' think that is the case.

This is Nintendo. Nintendo isn't the synonym for video games it used to be (that job is now taken over in popular culture by Playstation or X-Box). But they are still a MAJOR brand. Everyone knows about the GameBoy. They had a very successful system in the GameCube, the N64, the SNES, the NES, and the DS. They weren't always the leaders of the generation (that stopped in home consoles with the SNES), but they have good solid stuff.

Besides, this is Nintendo. That means Mario. Mario Party. Super Smash Brothers. Zelda. Mario Kart. Plus tons of other great little games that will come out like Pikmin. Was there anything even CLOSE to Pikmin on any other system?

Nintendo may not be the post powerful console out there. That's fine with me. As I have said in previous posts, it's not like we are hurting for better graphics with the current generation (and the Rev is supposed to be 4x as powerful as the system that showed us Resident Evil 4). But I know there will be great games. Even if theys system is not the most popular (which could happen this time around, if Nintendo's bets pay off) it will have great games.

Even the Virtual Boy which failed in the market (which I loved) had great games. Mario Crash, Mairo Tennis (about the best tennis game I've played), Wario Land, and more.

The games will keep the afloat if they get stuck as an "also-ran". But I think they will be more successful than there were this generation.

Re:A couple of prerequesites

[VGPowerlord]

Unfortunately, as strong as Nintendo is with first party games, the lack of third party games is what, IMO, made them come in third in the current (well, previous now that the 360 is out) generation.

Re:A couple of prerequesites

[b1t r0t]

Finally, there's the assumption that the Revolution will use no exotic, hard-to-produce components. You've got to wonder if the little motion-sensor widgets for pitch/roll/yaw are going to be a rate limiting step in production.

What, you think those parts are being made just so Nintendo can make a cool controller? You've got it backwards. There are apparently lots of uses for motion-sensor chips (hell, Apple is putting them into all their newer Powerbooks primarily for the mundane task of parking the hard drive during a fall), and Nintendo is just taking advantage of this new technology. I'd bet that Nintendo won't even account for 10% of the market for motion-sensor chips.

Re:A couple of prerequesites

[Lally Singh]

There's always the risk that good value will backfire in the face of percieved value - namely, that the Revolution will be looked upon as cheap and underpowered in comparison to its competitors.

Just from the number of people I talk to who just want street fighter II or super mario bros again, I can safely say that looking simple and cheap isn't a bad thing. Hell a lot of people still play the original NES (if they can get their hands on it).

Re:A couple of prerequesites

[funny-jack]

Finally, there's the assumption that the Revolution will use no exotic, hard-to-produce components. You've got to wonder if the little motion-sensor widgets for pitch/roll/yaw are going to be a rate limiting step in production. Those kind of sensors have been around and have been cheap for quite a while now. How do you think they make electronic airplane instruments? I bring up that example specifically because I have connections to a company that makes an Electronic Flight Information System (EFIS). It sells for something like $2,500, but most of the cost is in the custom case, the manufacturing, and the bright color screen. The sensors are dang cheap, and would be really cheap if you bought them in large quantities. So no, it's a fact, not really an assumption--at least when it comes to the motion detection in the controller.

Re:A couple of prerequesites

[MBCook]

That's true. But it can't get much worse than it is now, and I think the ability to attract all the casual gamers with the unique interface will draw in many game companies. Nintendo has proven with the DS that they can get casual gamers with their unique interfaces (example: Nintendogs). The ability to make a game that will be easy to use and attract gamer who aren't the "gamers" everyone else is targeting would be huge. And having a price point where an adult could buy the system (say $200 or $250, as opposed to $400+ for the others) without having to miss a car payment. I've seen people who bought a DS for Nintendogs.

How many non-"gamers" will plunk down $400 + game + tax if they find something they like on the 360. How many other games do they think they will find on the 360 they like?

This should be interesting to see what happens. I'm hoping the Big-N takes first in the next-gen race (a bit unlikely). But I wouldn't be surprised if they were much more competitive, perhaps taking 2nd place by a small margin.

Re:A couple of prerequesites

[Anonymous Coward]

You've got to understand that Third Parties are really excited about the Revolution for reasons that Sony and Microsoft can not understand ...

For the top 10% of developers the controller is a big selling point; when you're making a big budget game (like Resident Evil) it is becoming increasingly difficult to seperate your product from the dozens of other products in the market place. If Sega Releases Virtual Fighter and Namco releases Tekken at about the same time how can you encourage someone to buy your game instead of the competing game when they look and play on a very similar level and have similar marketing budgets; thus both developers spend $10 Million on a game and neither does as well as it could have because the games are not distinct enough. With the wider range of control setups new sub genres can be created which should enable developers to make a more distinct product.

The Revolutions' 'weaker' graphics (unknown graphical specifications brings this into question, a better term would be Nintendo's de-emphasis on graphics) attracts all game developers. Whether you're a tiny developer producing games with your 10 best friends, or a massive company like EA, the graphical push behind games produces an increasingly high cost to produce games which is troublesome. The fact is that Noname Development house wants to enter the market while EA wants to produce new markets and the high cost hurts both goals; for EA, they want to sell games to both teenage girls and Grandparents but couldn't risk $10-$20 Million on a game with expected sales of 100K.

Re:A couple of prerequesites

[Threni]

> This depends heavily on the public being interested in the system.

The last few years it's been purely Sony and Microsoft; Sega and Nintendo - formerly the giants of gaming - have been nowhere to be seen, except on the fringes with handhold consoles. Retailers have to believe that there is room in the market, and on the shelves, for another console. Nintendo better have some pretty amazing games at launch, and/or a cheap price or unique feature the others are lacking. I'm not sure a controller that people are unfamiliar with, and which will make porting games onto the platform harder and therefore less desirable for developers, is such a feature.

Re:A couple of prerequesites

[VGPowerlord]

Nintendo has never had a problem in the handheld market; they've dominated it since the original Gameboy came out in 1989, I think.

Their console market is what they need to shore up.

Re:A couple of prerequesites

[Anonymous Coward]

What's with everyone saying the Virtual Boy failed in teh market?
Almost every one I heard that had one loved it and Nintendo did make profit on it, as they did with most if not all their other systems.

Re:A couple of prerequesites

[Anonymous Coward]

The eyetoy wasn't innovative. You cannot have a monopoly on innovation. The Xbox comment is bullshit.

Re:A couple of prerequesites

[Anonymous Coward]

"I'm hoping the Big-N takes first in the next-gen race (a bit unlikely)."

Likewise, for both nostalgic and non-nostalgic reasons.

Please take a quick look at an older post I made in a previous story about this. At the end, I have an analysis of the poll linked in the post.

I think it's definitely possible.

Re:A couple of prerequesites

[Anonymous Coward]

Right. Those inexpensive little self-contained retro game joysticks and retro consoles sell amazingly well, to the surprise of hardcore gamers who typically ignore them.

Nintendo, riding the retro wave of the past few years, is aiming to keep that wave going for a while. The Revolution's expected low hardware cost, along with Nintendo's own humongous back catalog of memorable games, seem to be evidence of this.

Re:A couple of prerequesites

[justchris]

There are 2 differences between the eyetoy and the revmote, and each is important for different reasons.

Eyetoy is an add-on, the revmote is the standard controller for the system. How many people do you know who actually own an eyetoy? I'm going to assume, for the sake of argument, you know at least one, cause I don't know any, including myself. The reason? So far, there have not been any really good games to display what the eyetoy can do. If there was some AAA must have eyetoy title, you would see people picking it up. But there aren't, and there's just no reason to go out and buy the thing for most gamers.

On the other hand, every single person who owns a Revolution will have a revmote. Most will have two. The hardcore gamers, who buy the most games, will have 4. That means: more incentivie for developers to make games that utilize the revmote. Every game, no matter whether it's an F level piece of crap, or the greatest AAA game ever, will use the revmote.

The second big difference is in design. As neat an idea as it is, the eyetoy is a very shoddily designed product. From everything I've heard, it's going to be better integrated into the PS3 designed, and be improved significantly, but as it is currently, it's hardly worth the purchase.

Nintendo, in 20+ years of designing game consoles, has never made a bad controller. What's more, everyone who's actually used the revmote has raved about how responsive and easy to use it is. And that's not even the final design, they still have time to improve it.

You can be as innovative as you want, but if your innovation isn't actually any good, people still won't buy it. From everything I've heard from people who've actually gotten to use the revmote, it's a good innovation, and totally worth the risk Nintendo is taking.

Re:A couple of prerequesites

[Elranzer]

The eyetoy wasn't innovative

Actually it was

Actually, it wasn't.

And that "Xwand" was never an Xbox peripheral. The device existed, but in actuality it wasn't related to Microsoft at all and was meant for home appliances. The blogger who originally made it public is who decided to report that it was an Xbox accessory.

Re:A couple of prerequesites

[Anonymous Coward]

The EyeToy wasn't innovative at all. Various PC webcams came those same games for well over a decade before the EyeToy. The only thing Sony did was attach it to a PS2 instead of a PC, and market the hell out of it.

Re:A couple of prerequesites

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, it wasn't.

Actually, it was. Get the fuck over it. There still arent other devices like it for consoles. Oh, and we dont count PCs since that would exclude everything Nintendo's ever done from being innovative.

And that "Xwand" was never an Xbox peripheral.

And thats not what the guy was referring to. He said he tested it with GAMERS.

Re:A couple of prerequesites

[justchris]

I never said the eyetoy wasn't innovative. It's an excellent device, I've played some of the games for it, and if it were better designed (or perhaps the eyetoy is fine, just the games themselves were badly designed) I would pick it up. But the fact remains that if a controller is not standard, few people are going to buy it, which leads to few developers utilizing it.

Nintendo's suffered the same thing with GBA connectivity and even the n64 rumble pack, so this time around they decided to do it the opposite way. Make the innovation standard, and the standard controller an add-on. That means developers will almost have to use the innovative controller, because they can't trust that everyone will have a standard controller handy.

Re:Well, this is Slashdot, so...

[MindStalker]

I personally think that the ultimatly failing of the gamecube was that the N64 was good enough. I seriously didn't feel the need to purchase a gamecube until the N64 had really lost its use, by then the gamecube was outdated itself.

The low price won't help it

[Guspaz]

The GabeCube cost as little as half as much as the PS2 and XBox during their lifespans (GameCube is currently priced at $99 Canadian with the XBox at $199 Canadian). Despite costing half as much, the GameCube occupied a distand third place in market share.

If anything sells the Revolution, it won't be low price. Otherwise the GameCube would have dominated the market for the same reason.

Re:The low price won't help it

[syrinx]

Despite costing half as much, the GameCube occupied a distand third place in market share.

That's true, except of course on this planet (which we call "Earth", welcome!), where the Gamecube sales numbers were well ahead of the XBox.

Re:The low price won't help it

[falcon5768]

Sept that the Gamecube was second and it was the Xbox that was the distant third.

Re:The low price won't help it

[Anonymous Coward]

"That's true, except of course on this planet (which we call "Earth", welcome!), where the Gamecube sales numbers were well ahead of the XBox."

Yes.

The current gen will end up with the following installed base numbers:

1) Sony PS2 - currently at 100 million, most likely somewhere in the 120 million range by the time production of the hardware stops in two to three years

2) Nintendo GameCube - currently at 22 million, will probably end up in the 25 to 27 million range by the time the production of the hardware stops - the next Zelda being the wildcard that may give the GameCube one last big sales spike at the end of its life

3) Microsoft Xbox - currently at 21 million, will probably end up in the 21 to 22 million range - Sales have all but stopped for the console

Sony and Nintendo consoles did crazy numbers over the holidays.

In retrospect, five billion dollars for last place for Microsoft is a humilating marketplace failure. They could have spent zero and still been in last place.

And the 360 is doing massively worse than the first Xbox...

Re:The low price won't help it

[Fred Or Alive]

But induvidual markets don't work on worldwide sales, they usually go on local sales.

For example, if you're right, the Gamecube may be second place worldwide, but in the UK, just about all stores have dropped the Gamecube (my favourite was my local ASDA, where the Nintendo DS pushed out it's own big brother), whilst the third placed Xbox is still going strong. (Although the Xbox 360 hasn't really made much progress yet).

Re:The low price won't help it

[Fred Or Alive]

It's all a pointless pissing contest anyway, the PlayStation 2 is number one.

I suppose it can be broken down to:

Gamecube: It's number 2 in the world!

Xbox: It was pretty much neck and neck with the Gamecube until they stopped making it, and it's number two in Europe and North America!

I'm not sure if the Xbox has been a "humilating marketplace failure", at least in the west, the console did perfectly well on the marketplace, it's more a financial failure for Microsoft.

Re:The low price won't help it

[Guppy06]

"It's all a pointless pissing contest anyway, the PlayStation 2 is number one."

Until you start to look at GBAs and/or DSs.

Re:The low price won't help it

[MorderVonAllem]

You're insane if you think the installed base of the PS2 is 100 million users. I'd divide that number at least in half when you take replacement units into account from the system crapping out. It doesn't make any real difference, but it helps illustrate that the actual numbers of unique owners for each console isn't as earth shatteringly disparate as Sony would have you believe.

Re:The low price won't help it

[Fred Or Alive]

I thought we were talking about consoles, not handhelds.

Plus, according to Wikipedia the DS has sold 14 million, Gameboy Advance 70 million, which even when counted together don't beat the 100 million PS2s.

If you counted pre-Advance Gameboys you'd certainly beat the PS2 though. But to be fair you'd have to add the 100 million PlayStations as well.

Re:The low price won't help it

[Sizzlean]

Take one off the count. I bought mine used. Having played all of the current gen consoles and owning all but the X-Box (might pick one up if it gets really cheap) the PS2 is the best overall though, IMO. barely touched the Cube since buying it. PC gaming is still where its at for me though so don't assume a particular console bias with me.

Re:The low price won't help it

[Anonymous Coward]

Handhelds are game consoles. 'Handheld' is short for 'Hand Held Game Console'. Just because its small and portable, doesnt make the definition of 'Game Console' not apply.

Re:The low price won't help it

[ClamIAm]

First of all, as other posters have mentioned, the Cube is nowhere near a "distant third". The Xbox and Cube have pretty similar installed numbers (worldwide), with regional markets having either one in front.

Second, you're assuming that the next generation will be an exact repeat of this one. This is not a fair assumption. It's like assuming that Nintendo and Sega would be the front-runners in the 32/64-bit generation, since they were in the one before that. But we all know what happened: a little system called Playstation came along.

So it's not really fair to look at one little piece of time and assume that whatever follows it will be a repeat. You need to look at general trends over several pieces of time. And this is what the article is doing.

Re:The low price won't help it

[9Nails]

And the 360 is doing massively worse than the first Xbox...

The Xbox 360 is sinking because Microsoft screwed up production and nobody in their key market regions can buy one. By the time Microsoft fixes their supply problems and appoligies to it's key market areas, the PS3 will be out and people will forget all about the 'box.

PC titles are gasping for life too. For Microsoft, the game market doesn't look like a place where they have much muscle at all.

Re:The low price won't help it

[mink]

I'm on my third PS2 (glad I only bought 2 of the 3). I think it would be safe to reduce the "installed" (as in functioning and playable) numbers down to about 30-40 million if they are lucky.

My predictions for this generation

[mwvdlee]

XBox 360 will continue to sell well and establish a nice fanbase.

PS3 will blow the XBox 360 away technically bit will be way too expensive for most gamers to crush the 360.

Revolution will be the "winner", either as the sole gaming machine or next to their XBox 360 or PS3, mainly because it'll be a lot cheaper, but some "killer games" utilizing the controler will lock the deal.

Anyway, I'm not buying any before all of them are released.

Re:My predictions for this generation

[ivan256]

PS3 will blow the XBox 360 away technically bit will be way too expensive for most gamers to crush the 360.

What happens to your prediction when the PS3 costs the same amount as the 360?

I'll probably buy all three, but it seems like a long shot to me that Microsoft will pull ahead of Sony if the PS3 manages to hit store shelves before June. The only one I'm really excited for at this point is the Revolution though.

Re:My predictions for this generation

[Babbster]

I'll probably buy all three, but it seems like a long shot to me that Microsoft will pull ahead of Sony if the PS3 manages to hit store shelves before June.

What are the chances of Sony hitting the market in the second quarter? I haven't seen a single report of a hands-on PS3 experience (meaning press demos), something that one would expect several months before the console hits the market. As far as I know, there still hasn't even been a picture of the finalized controller that was supposedly undergoing revision due to the extreme distaste people had for the boomerang-type controllers we've seen before. I know that the speculation has been that the console will release in Japan this spring but without any news from Sony I wonder more and more if that isn't a pipe dream.

I guess it doesn't matter that much to me since I don't buy consoles at launch time anyway due to the combination of price and inevitably sparse game selection. I didn't even buy a DS until Meteos came out and that system was [obviously] tiny in cost compared to these fancypants new home consoles.

Re:My predictions for this generation

[ivan256]

Well, six months before the Xbox 360 launch, the 360 was a PowerMac G5 under a table with non-playable demos and a plastic mockup, so it's not out of the realm of possibility. August is more likely, but it still doesn't guarantee a Microsoft victory. It only gives them a little more of a chance.

Re:My predictions for this generation

[justchris]

Well, back in September, 4 months ago, we already had Revolution demos (at least for the press) to test out how the controller plays. No demos of visuals or actual games yet, though.

Not that that's really indicative of anything, but it is relevant to the discussion.

A theory about the Revolution...

[rubberbando]

I am looking forward to getting one of these bad boys when they come out.
But what bothers me is Nintendo's secrecy about specs. They seem to downplay any inprovements in graphical performance and they say that it will have complete backwards compatability with the GameCube on top of having an amazingly low price. This made me wonder how will they achieve this. My thought is that the Revolution will really just be a GameCube with some extra hardware added and put in a different case.

Anyone else get this vibe?

Re:A theory about the Revolution...

[Guppy06]

"They seem to downplay any inprovements in graphical performance"

Because their message has consistently been that they're not about the specs and whiz-bang, they're about fun games. If you're focused on improvements in graphical performance, pick up an X360 or a PS3; they're the ones aimed at you.

Re:A theory about the Revolution...

[Anonymous Coward]

Uh, that's been the idea all along. It's an upgraded GameCube redress with a lot of new and exciting peripherals. That's how they hit their price point, and that's how they keep their developers on board. You can code for Revolution today using the Dolphin SDK.

Re:A theory about the Revolution...

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't speak for everyone but what a lot of people said the first time that they saw the XBox 360 up close was "Is that it?"

People have been spoiled by the graphical improvements of previous generations; when the Nintendo Entertainment system came out people made comments like "It looks like a cartoon" because of how advanced the graphics were compared to the Atari and Colleco systems; when the Super Nintendo Entertainment system came out people were (once again) blown away by the graphics; the N64 amazed people with it's amazing 3D graphics because (beyond games like Starfox) it was the first time that people had seen real-time 3D graphics at a decent level of detail; finally, the Dreamcast/PS2/XBox/Gamecube all came out with a refinement of 3D graphics which meant that you no longer had to interpret what you're looking at (it's no longer a 'blob' that represents a rock-man, it actually looks like a rock-man).

For PC gamers/Graphic whores, the next generation represents a massive leap forward in performance because they're willing to spend $500 every year for a new graphics card; for the general public it is not that amazing. It's like pre-rendered movies, up-until Ants or Toy-Story the average person saw a massive improvement in graphical quality, but they would have difficulty expressing what was the difference between The Incredables and Toy Story; even though The Incredables had some amazing shading effects which emulate the look nylon, and the lighting is far more realistic.

Nintendo is downplaying Graphics because they know the average person is not going to be all that impressed with the improvement in graphics and that the average person will not be able to tell the difference between a game produced for the Revolution and the PS3. On the other hand people Will be impressed with how expressive the controller is and will become excited about the possibilities it presents.

Re:A theory about the Revolution...

[skryche]

As I don't know what a rock-man is, how will I know if one is graphically represented well?

Re:A theory about the Revolution...

[Anonymous Coward]

If specs are what you're looking for, go PC. Before all the console junkies start foaming at the mouth with "3 cores bleh bleh", I got one word: upgradeable.

Revolution will trump all consoles. Their games have heart. GayCube cell-shaded BS sucked my nuts. That is all for now.

Re:A theory about the Revolution...

[KDR_11k]

The code is compatible but I think the OP wanted to suggest that the Rev's specs are identical to the GC's.

Re:A theory about the Revolution...

[snuf23]

Until HD is common in homes you're right - the average gamer is not going to notice that big a difference. Same grainy interlaced display.
If you look at the Xbox 360 on a standard TV it really doesn't look that much better - but on an HDTV it looks very nice and crisp.
Maybe someday I'll be able to afford an HDTV - but not at the current pricing levels.

Re:A theory about the Revolution...

[ClamIAm]

My thought is that the Revolution will really just be a GameCube with some extra hardware added and put in a different case.

Well, in a sense, you're right. The Cube had a PowerPC CPU in it. So does the Rev. The Cube had an ATI graphics chip. So does the Rev.

But if you think Nintendo isn't going to take advantage of cheaper, more powerful hardware that has been developed in the five years since the Gamecube was put together, you're nuts. My guess is that the CPU will be somewhat similar to the Xbox, except it will be single-core and probably won't be able to heat your living room during the winter (i.e. it'll be clocked slower).

As for the graphics chip, the one in the GC is something like a slightly less-powerful version of the Radeon 9700. ATI has had (I believe) two new generations of chips since then. I doubt they'll be using the old one.

So saying that the hardware will be "the same" is kind of like saying the original Pentium and the Core Duo or something are pretty much the same. Okay, maybe not really, but I hope you can kinda see what I'm talking about.

Re:A theory about the Revolution...

[Raenex]

I don't get all the HD euphoria. Ok, it's crisper, but it's not like standard definition has an awful picture. I've seen the HD kiosks of the 360 and it's just not a big deal. I agree with the poster who said that the new generation is not nearly as big a jump as other generations. There's definitely a law of diminishing returns here.

Re:A theory about the Revolution...

[Bobsledboy]

It is possible you know... the graphics card in the gamecube was used to nowhere near it's full potential due to CPU limitations.

Re:A theory about the Revolution...

[ClamIAm]

the graphics card in the gamecube was used to nowhere near it's full potential due to CPU limitations.

This sounds like a really bad reason for using the same graphics processor. In nearly any computer system, there is some component that can't work up to its full potential because of a bottleneck somewhere else. But it doesn't really make sense that you should use that same component in a new system just because you can get performance closer to its real potential.

The Gamecube was released in 2001. I believe the graphics chip was based on ATI's R300 core. They have subsequently released the R420 and R520. Using the same chip again might save a little money. But it would make the REV limited in the fact that games wouldn't look much better (if at all) than the Gamecube, and the graphics wouldn't really improve as time went on (as usually happens with consoles). So I doubt Nintendo will use the same chip. Plus there's the fact that they've stated the machine will, in fact, be more powerful.

Re:A theory about the Revolution...

[ajd1474]

CPU power isn't just about graphics. For me the MOST important part of the new processing power is AI. The reason games have sucky AI till now is because consoles have had to cut back on AI to improve graphics. There is always a trade off, and graphics usually wins out.

Take a game like RE4 on GC. Looks awesome, ZERO AI. Automated zombie-bots...that's it.

More complex AI is a hard thing to do with limited resources, more processing power will enable games on XBox360 and PS3 to have awesome AI and awesome graphics.

Re:A theory about the Revolution...

[buffer-overflowed]

Yea, except all your extra horsepower is going into upping the resolution and the innate scaling issues of that. Going from 640x480 up to 1080i means almost 10 times the amount of pixels to draw on screen per frame. That's 10 times the amount of oomph needed for every last visual effect you want to do. And you aren't going to impress the graphic whores by cutting the frame rate to compensate. It better push 60FPS, and there goes most of your resources, *poof* into the graphics/res whore den, and no the GPU does not compensate for it. Same with disk space, btw.

Plus, the PS3 in particular has no branch prediction and no out-of-order execution which drastically increases the difficulty of making decent AI(read, not going to happen for 5 years at the minimum). The 360 simply does not have the extra horse-power after the graphics increases for a big jump either.

There just isn't enough left over, and the graphics first/HD first mentality means no one is *going* to leave enough left over. If you think AI is suddenly going to be amazing, you're absolutely fucking delusional.

Dominate? No. Head To Head With Sony

[Anonymous Coward]

If you listen to the mass of developer comments on the Revolution it appears that every console developer in the world wants to do stuff for the console.

Nintendo probably has a good chance of at least a 50-50 split with Sony in Japan and higher if the price is right and the games are there.

The US and Europe, Nintendo probably won't be able to be able to outsell Sony unless the console is down in the 200 and under price range. BluRay + insane power advantage over other consoles + mass market exclusives is a gigantic force to be up against for Nintendo. The Revolution at the right price would be the ideal 2nd console for huge numbers of gamers in the US and Europe.

With chances rising that Microsoft will pull the plug on the 360, supporting two consoles will be a no brainer for most console game makers. Big name/high budget exclusives for the PS3 and low budget/crazy fun titles for the Revolution.

Re:Dominate? No. Head To Head With Sony

[drewmca]

insane power advantage?

chances rising that Microsoft will pull the plug on the 360?

Someone is letting their wishes dictate how they think.

Re:Dominate? No. Head To Head With Sony

[Babbster]

Relax. This same AC troll (at least according to posting pattern and writing style) has been posting an anti-360 rant in every "next-gen" topic. I've come to find him pretty entertaining, especially since the posts aren't just cut&paste jobs like the "Netcraft says BSD is dead" stuff. :)

All will win

[the computer guy nex]

Video game industry has become the Console Wars. PC gaming is on a major decline and arcades are a thing of the past.

Each console brings something different to the market. Nintendo with its edgy and risky ideas and strong 1st party titles, Xbox360 with its live component and the "winner" for time to market, and the PS3 with its established user base.

They will all do well.

Re:All will win

[dtfarmer]

They will all do well.

Hey, who are you and what did you do with the real nex? No really, complimenting and pointing out the upside of the "other" two. Not making outrageous claims about Xbox 360 launch numbers beating all previous launches, esp the PS2... not dissing Blu-ray players and speculating an astronomical price for the PS3? Should we be calling 911 and reporting a possible homicide/identity theft here?

Seriously, if I had mod points I would mod this post up. I do agree PC gaming is on a downward slide, but I'm not so sure that it's headed for dire straits - as long as people have home computers for email/web browsing/financial tasks/etc. there will be a market for games on the platform. There certainly are genres that are still better suited to PC gaming, and I have a hard time imagining keeping a mouse/keyboard out in the living room for said games - but you never know.

Re:All will win

[ClamIAm]

PC gaming is on a major decline and arcades are a thing of the past.

I know it seems this way, but I think these two areas of gaming are sort of going through evolution. Old species are dying out, new ones are emerging, and of the old ones, only the strong are surviving.

Pervasive Internet access, coupled with the easy publishing of the Web is allowing indie PC developers to bypass the traditional box-plus-CD, shipped to store method. Technologies such as Steam do the same thing.

As for the arcade, weird new stuff (think DDR) will probably replace the standard 2-player JAMMA cabinets we grew up on.

Its the Revolution I'm looking forward too

[el_womble]

In the last round of the console wars I went with the XBox and the GC. I really enjoyed the XBox, but as an ex-PC gamer, felt that I was just regurgitating IDs back-catalogue, but with slightly better graphics. The GC provided me with the most fun. The games were cheaper, had greater variety, and for all the fun of Halo 2 Live, playing drink monkey ball proved that its was more important to be able to punch your opponent in the real world, than snipe them from behind a exquisitly rendered rock on Live.

I still don't understand what all the fuss was/is about the PS2. Lifes too short to watch progress bars, when your supposed to be having fun.

Being able to play Nintendo's entire back catalogue sounds too good to be true. Finally having a controller that reacts to its possition in space has been the aspiration of every gamer since the 80s - the only thing that could top that is having a game that gives you extra control when you stick your tounge out ;)

I don't care that its not HD. Even if I buy one HD TV in the next year, that will be one in a house of 4 TVs. I've yet to see any real evidence that I need it. As my PC improved I was able to play Half-life at 640x480, then 800x600 and finally 1024x768. It was the graphics that got better, not the game. It may add a layer of realism to the game, but Doom 3 proved that once you stop looking at the eye-candy it's the underlying gameplay that makes the game worth the money.

Re:Its the Revolution I'm looking forward too

[Elshar]

Mostly I think people (Or at least everyone I know) tends to play Strategy/Roleplaying games on the PS2, and if you look at it's library, that's what seems to be the most popular titles.

I actually own all three, and while I could find alot of really interesting new RPGs and Strategy games for the PS2, all I could find for the Xbox were regurgitated PC games and for the GC they were virtually non-existant.

It's interesting to note that after owning my Xbox for over 2 years, I still only own three games for it. And two of them are Halo.

Re:Its the Revolution I'm looking forward too

[MilenCent]

...playing drink monkey ball proved that its was more important to be able to punch your opponent in the real world...

Wow, a Super Monkey Ball drinking game. Why am I reminded of that drinking game Ford Prefect played with Ol' Janx Spirit at the beginning of Hitchhiker's? One of the effects of alcohol is to supress motor skills, so once one begins to lose at Drink Monkey Ball one is likely to continue losing....

Re:Its the Revolution I'm looking forward too

[|/|/|||]

That's why the best video-drinking-games have negative feedback -- i.e. the winner drinks. Losing for a bit and then making a sudden comeback can be a very useful strategy. Plus, you can decide how much you're willing to drink. If you want to limit yourself to 5 shots, you play to 6 matches (assuming the house rules don't force you to drink after you win the final match).

Super Tequila Fighter 2 Turbo, anyone?

Whoa

[Anonymous Coward]

The controller is standard enough to work for most titles - so Xbox and PlayStation games will most likely work on the Revolution without major trouble

The Revolution is going to be able to play xbox and playstation games? SWEET.

For any other company, it would just be a gimmick

[scolby]

But because Nintendo is making the controller, it's automatically going to reshape the gaming landscape. Such claims need to be taken with a rather large grain of salt - Virtual Boy, anyone?

Look at history

[Anonymous Coward]

Just look at history, since Sony has entered the console market every one they have faced has used the exact same strategy (better graphics, conventional controller, more features, etc.) and has lost; in fact if you compare the strategy of the XBox 360 with that of the Dreamcast there is a remarkable similarity (focus on online service, built in network connection, released a year early, etc.). Sony is so effective because they're masters of the super generic console.

The only time Sony has been humbled is with the Nintendo DS which decided to change things up dramatically; whereas all systems Sony faced before used conventional input the DS has a Microphone and Touch Screen; all systems Sony faced before pushed for greater graphics whereas the Nintendo DS focused settled on a much more modest graphical level; and finally where every system that faced Sony before lacked decent Backwards compatibility, the Nintendo DS contained a catelog of games from one of the most popular platforms ever.

Now the Revolution has many similar charateristics to the DS, they both use a more conventional game medium (DVD and SD [like] flash memory), they have a well established back catelog, they have new input possibilities, they're both (expected) to be affordable, neither are focused on being the graphical powerhouse, etc.

Re:Look at history

[drewmca]

"Ever since" is a bit difficult to establish precedent with, seeing that Sony has only been at this for 2 generations. I'm not saying Sony won't continue to end up on top, but it's not an inevitability. Remember, Nintendo was the undisputed king of consoles before PS1, and Atari before them (though Atari fell for other reasons).

Re:Look at history

[Anonymous Coward]

All I was saying was this "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again while expecting different results"

If (with the exception of the PSP vs Nintendo DS) you look at all of the 'console wars' Sony has been involved in, Sony has faced several different companies which use the exact same formula to compete against their Playstation products. The Nintendo DS and Revolution are interesting because they're going in another direction, one that (to a certain extent) will put them in a less competative relationship to Sony's products; less competative in the sence that people will not think "I'm buying a Nintendo DS/Revolution instead of a PSP/PS3" instead they will think "I'm buying a Nintendo DS/Revolution" with the possibility of "I'm buying a Nintendo DS/Revolution along with a Sony PSP/PS3"

The difference between this and the XBox 360 is that either the XBox 360 will be very popular in a region or the PS3 will be popular in a region; although people will own both most people will own one or the other. The Revolution will become popular on its own merits regardless on what Sony or Microsoft do.

My thoughts

[Phantasmo]

Developing for Gamecube is pretty well understood, and in terms of hardware the Revolution is an extra-beefy Gamecube with a network card built in.
Sadly, most of the Cube's 3rd-party releases were rushed ports of PS2 or Xbox games. This meant that, even though the Cube was more powerful than the PS2, the graphics and performance were often worse. Now we have the least powerful system, but I think that the quality of the ports will remain about the same.
I think that Nintendo's focus on low-def is a good thing. Given that a 360 running on a regular TV looks about as good as a plain-old Xbox, I think we can probably expect the same out of the PS3. So I think that Revolution will look the best on the old-fashioned, outdated TVs that 99% of us still have.

Re:My thoughts

[EMeta]

Low-def is just fine with me. I'm happy with the current level of graphics in games, and don't particularly think that better graphics = better games. Sure, FFX was prettier than (original) FFVI. But how fun? About the same.

Please, put more effort into gameplay, story, characters, controllers (!!), etc. and spend relatively less on redering.

It occurs to me that this will also help non-huge 3rd party dev's get into the market. Not so shabby, having less graphics.

Re:For any other company, it would just be a gimmi

[Glytch]

But because Nintendo is making the controller, it's automatically going to reshape the gaming landscape. Such claims need to be taken with a rather large grain of salt - Virtual Boy, anyone?

Force-feedback, anyone? Analog stick, anyone? Shoulder buttons, anyone? Yeah, no-one else has every used anything that Nintendo's pioneered on its' controllers. That would be just plain nutty.

(And I'll put good money on the odds that the PSP2 will have a touch screen, and that the PS4 and Xbox720 controllers will have accelerometers.)

Re:For any other company, it would just be a gimmi

[g_hill]

DS anyone? That's a bit of innovation that's doing very nicely just now.
If it was a peripheral manufacturer like Logitech making the controller, with no definite developer support, it would probably bomb
However since Nintendo will also develop their own software specifically for this controller from their back catalogue of gaming IPs and also the new ideas they keep bringing (eg Electroplankton, Nintendogs), the controller will be much more successful. Nintendo still have enough clout within the industry with publishers and developers for them to make software for it too. I'm sure there are many creative teams out there dying to try something new, and Sony and Microsoft aren't providing it.

Re:For any other company, it would just be a gimmi

[NanoGator]

"Such claims need to be taken with a rather large grain of salt - Virtual Boy, anyone?"

Shoulder buttons/4 controller ports/analog stick/Rumble Pak anyone?

Backward compatibility?

[b1t r0t]

And all this without even mentioning the rumored backward compatibility.

As near as I can tell, Nintendo is going to have emulation for all their previous systems (except GC, of which Revolution is an extension, so they run natively), and let you download games (for a small fee, I presume) sort of like Xbox Live Arcade.

The only questions I have about that are: will they come out with cartridge slot acessories (after all, they did have a GB slot accessory for the N64), and will it be possible to get homebrew games put on their download service? (not that there's a lot of homebrew NES action yet, but this could encourage it)

Controller?

[cyberbob2010]

I am really looking forward to the Revolution. I'm not going to lie, I am a fanboy. I love Nintendo and Sega and can't wait for the Revolution to come out. I think that the Revolution will appeal greatly to casual gamers because of the simple controller and the price.

What I do not think is that it is going to get as many cross platform games as this guy is suggesting. The fact that they are not using these "exotic" parts means that they will not be able to get these games from the multi-processor multi-vidcard systems to run without greatly cutting back on the amount of detail, size of levels etc...

Also, I am not sure if this guy has just heard that the controller is cool or if he has actually taken the time to look at the damn thing but guess what - the Nintendo controller is not exactly covered in buttons. How does he think they are going to adapt the controls from an X-box game to work on the Revolution's?

I think that the Nintendo's innovation with the Revolution will garner it a large user base and plenty of support from developers but this guy has got it all wrong if he thinks porting things to it is going to be as easy as just developing for the 360 and ps3.

Re:Controller?

[inerte]

Actually one button + spatial-awareness is equal to lots of input.

Hold "A" and move the controller to the left, certain action if performed. Move to the right, another. Move to front, then up, *another*. Back, left, up-down quickly, and your "Finish Him" move is performed. Or use the nunchaku for movement, and let the controller take care of other actions.

The controller knows where it is in space, what angle is facing, and what speed is moving. That's a *lot* of buttons :p

Maybe it won't be confortable, or it won't be fun, but that we will have to wait to see...

Re:Controller?

[Anonymous Coward]

You can just plug in a gamecube controller and use that for cross platform stuff. Nintendo also mentioned a "shell" with extra buttons and conventional controller shape you can plug the wand controller into, which I guess would also work.

Sounds good to me, so long as they're not too pricey.

Re:Controller?

[MrCopilot]

What I do not think is that it is going to get as many cross platform games as this guy is suggesting. The fact that they are not using these "exotic" parts means that they will not be able to get these games from the multi-processor multi-vidcard systems to run without greatly cutting back on the amount of detail, size of levels etc...

Ordinarily I'd agree with you, but then I saw Half-Life 2 on the Xbox. We have a ps2 and a cube and a PC and we have games across systems. Negligible differences in graphics zero in gameplay. (Well O.K. Soul Calibur has Link or Spawn). Splinter Cell's games are a perfect example. On a standard TV I can see only the slightest difference. PC looks Stellar but not good enough for me to keep it installed when the cube has it.

I wish the big N nothing but luck (Anybody else feel like its just a little poetic justice after N strangled Sega Hardware year after year?)

Re:Controller?

[justchris]

Actually, the Revolution controller, even with less buttons, has greater input capability than a standard controller. That's what a lot of people don't notice.

With the revmote alone, without ever touching a single button, you have 12 distinct action triggers. You also have easily reached A & B buttons, as well as a control pad. What's more, the setup of the controller is such that you have access to both buttons and all the movement at all times.

With a standard controller, you cannot use the left analong stick and the control pad at the same time. Nor can you use the right analog stick and the face buttons at the same time.

So you're looking at 14 input options on a revmote, vs 12 on a standard controller (4 options for left analog control, 4 face buttons, and 4 shoulder buttons - giving you the benefit of the doubt that you can press all 4 shoulder buttons simultaneously or individually with equal precision and access, not likely, but some people can mange it).

Add the nunchuck analog controller, and you have your existing 14 input options, plus 4 analog input options, plus 2 additional input options (L1 & L2), giving you a total of 20 input options, all with equal access. This isn't including combinations, as someone mentioned earlier (holding down the A button and moving the controller forward is different from holding down the B button and moving the controller forward, is differnt from moving the controller forward with no buttons depressed). That's 20 as compared to the 12 you can manage on a 360 or PS3 controller.

Of course, let's max out the input options, not just the ones you have equal access to. On revmote you have 18, 24 if you add the nunchuck. On a 360 or PS2 controller you have 22 (some people I forget the L3 & R3 buttons). This is not including start or select or home buttons, which are roughly equal on each system, and usually have no effect on gameplay (except on handhelds where some games are desperate for more buttons to use).

So the difficulty in porting from one system to the Revolution will be a purely conceptual one. But they wont' have to remove options, in fact, they may have to add options to Revolution games to make the control more logical and transparent.

no exotic components you say?

[Lord Bitman]

But.. what about all those wild unconfirmed rumors and unfounded speculation? Are you saying they're ALL just not true?

I actually see a Nintendo backlash brewing.

[thatguywhoiam]

With all the ridiculous hype around the PS3 and Xbox360, I've seen many comments here and elsewhere about how Nintendo is going to 'clean up' and 'revolutionize the industry' (gag, choke) simply because:

1. We've had a chance to watch the 1st next-gen console launch, with its attendant hardware failure stories, and criticise it (X360)
2. We've seen Sony do ridiculously stupid things with DRM in the music space, and so we hate them, and have possibly boycotted them
3. Nintendo showed us a really wizzy controller... and not much else.

I like Nintendo, they are true innovators, but the way the hype is blowing right now, people are expecting the sun and moon from their next console. If it doesn't deliver, the fan base is going to be incredibly bitter (well, except for the really hardcore fans). Expectations are very high for the Revolution. But its only partially based on that neat demo they did - the rest is bitterness and resentment towards MS and Sony. Nintendo looks good just standing still... but the Revolution had really better be a true revolution, I actually think the hype is higher for that box than any other at the moment.

Re:I actually see a Nintendo backlash brewing.

[Guppy06]

"1. We've had a chance to watch the 1st next-gen console launch, with its attendant hardware failure stories, and criticise it (X360)
2. We've seen Sony do ridiculously stupid things with DRM in the music space, and so we hate them, and have possibly boycotted them"

You've been on Slashdot too long. In the Real World, few people have heard of the X360 hardware problems and nobody cares about the Sony rootkit (if they even know about it). Neither company is exactly losing money hand over fist because a handfull of Slashdotters are boycotting them.

Re:I actually see a Nintendo backlash brewing.

[Ekarderif]

nobody cares about the Sony rootkit (if they even know about it)

The average gamer may be a dumbass, but he sure as hell will notice the DRM bullshit if he needs to network the console to play his new games or the lack of a PS3 section at Blockbuster. After all, there was a pretty big backlash against Sony's music CDs, and that was not limited to /.

Re:I actually see a Nintendo backlash brewing.

[Guppy06]

"The average gamer may be a dumbass, but he sure as hell will notice the DRM bullshit if he needs to network the console to play his new games"

The average gamer doesn't play online and especially not on a LAN.

"After all, there was a pretty big backlash against Sony's music CDs, and that was not limited to /."

Where? Aside from an odd lawsuit from a state AG here and there, you can even still find plenty of affected disks on store shelves.

Re:I actually see a Nintendo backlash brewing.

[Ekarderif]

Yes, because the rootkit is only affecting online users and Sony did not issue a 7 million copy recall. Seriously, open your eyes.

Re:I actually see a Nintendo backlash brewing.

[steveo777]

The sony rootkit was all over the news for about a week after we started hearing about it on /., thanks.

Re:I actually see a Nintendo backlash brewing.

[Anonymous Coward]

This article doesn't give any details. Also why would other console makers not get off scott free as the prices of their systems are higher and the video games are roughly the same price (around $50).

Re:For any other company, it would just be a gimmi

[DamienNightbane]

You forgot the D-Pad. Game & Watch, anyone?

Re:For any other company, it would just be a gimmi

[VGPowerlord]

4 Controller Ports, Bally Astrocade, 1980
Analog stick, Emerson Arcadia, 1982
Rumble, Sony Dual Analog Japanese version, 1996 (Rumble Pack was 1997)

That leaves... shoulder buttons.

My dad the outdoorsman

[smithsfan]

Perfect example as to why Nintendo will dominate. My dad will want one. He's 64. He loves playing games. He played the hell out of the NES and the Sega, but the new games are just too demanding for him. Too many buttons, too much bullshit. But this machine, with this controller... he'll love it, and his friends will love it. It's simple, it will be fun. All they need is two games, done well, and he'll play this thing every day. A fishing game and a hunting game. Use the controller like a fishing reel and use the controller like a gun (especially if they come out with some sort of a gun "shell" to put the controller into). If there are any game designers out there reading this, these games are guaranteed million sellers, and they aren't graphically demanding. They can be made on the cheap. just my $.02

Re:My dad the outdoorsman

[Anonymous Coward]

What the heck is "the Sega"? Master System? GameGear? Genesis? SegaCD? 32X? Saturn? Dreamcast?

Re:My dad the outdoorsman

[wed128]

Does it matter?

Re:My dad the outdoorsman

[Anonymous Coward]

I, for one, am eagerly anticipating Deer Hunter Revolution!

Re:For any other company, it would just be a gimmi

[NanoGator]

"4 Controller Ports, Bally Astrocade, 1980"

Virtually non-existent again until the N64. Now it's standard fare on everything except the Sony systems.

"Analog stick, Emerson Arcadia, 1982"

Virtually non-existent again until the N64. Now it's standard fare on everything.

"Rumble, Sony Dual Analog Japanese version, 1996 (Rumble Pack was 1997)"

Nintendo's Rumble Pack was announced well before the Dual Analog Sony controller came out. This is the exact reason Nintendo was so secretive about the Rev controller.

I never used the word invent. Nintendo's been leading the controller parade since the SNES. They have also been leading the portable parade, despite bringing up the Virtual Boy.

I'll be buying..

[MotherInferior]

FWIW, I'll be purchasing the Revo for the precise reasons mentioned in the FA. As far as I'm concerned, consoles have become too expensive and their games too repetative to be worth putting my hard-earned money into. If I want hard-core gaming experiences, I'm going to use my PC, which is where I want to spend my money. A console is supposed to be for quick sit-downs before class or relaxation or for friends at parties. The Revo offers that in spades, in fact is designed specifically for that. Nintendo has a long history of catering to those casual gamers that just want to have fun. Count me in as a future Revo fan.

Re:For any other company, it would just be a gimmi

[Guppy06]

"Analog stick, Emerson Arcadia, 1982"

I see sticks, but I'm not seeing analog. At the very least, the default controller wasn't analog (something not even Sony managed until the PS2).

"Rumble, Sony Dual Analog Japanese version, 1996 "

It didn't rumble. The dual analog controller was just that: a standard PSX controller with two sticks.

"Japanese nationalism hurt 360 sales"? Bullshit.

[neutralstone]

"Japanese nationalism hurt XBox 360 sales"?  Bullshit.

From TFA:  "In Japan, as usual, an American-made (or rather, American-designed) product has flopped. Like countless other American companies, Microsoft has faced a stiff, impenetrable and informal wall of Japanese nationalism which clings stubbornly to a Japanese product."

The author ignores the fact that Microsoft dominates the desktop PC OS market in Japan as it does in most other parts of the world.

Look, I wouldn't try to counter claims that there's a lot of unchecked racism in Japan, and I've been told -- by many Japanese people -- that believe they take their nationalism more seriously than people in other countries.  But I think that when it comes to games, the formula is this simple:

   ( fun game + reasonable price ) -->yields--> ( customer of game producer and platform manufacturer )

It's the kids of middle-class families and the teen-to-thirtysomethings who decide whether the 360 will sink or swim, and they sure as hell aren't thinking about the emperor when they try to decide whether to drop the money for it.  It may be that Microsoft didn't cater to the gaming preferences that are more prevalent in that country, but if so, that's their *avoidable* problem.  It's not like they don't have huge corporate offices in Japan.

Re:For any other company, it would just be a gimmi

[VGPowerlord]

Sony made rumble on controllers standard faire with the Playstation Dual Analog system. Every console released after that has had rumble built into its controllers.

The same controller also made dual analog sticks standard faire, which Nintendo and Microsoft both copied.

Sega made pressure sensitive shoulder buttons, copied by Nintendo with the Gamecube controller. PS2 has pressure sensitive buttons, but they aren't triggers. I have no idea how Microsoft has done it.

So, it's safe to say that Nintendo doesn't always lead, but also follows.

P.S. I mentioned Nintendo dominating the portable market in a different comment in reply to someone else.

Re:Did Sony make a new announcement?

[fujiman]

What technical source of data tells you that the PS3 will "blow away" the 360 "technically"?

Every unbiased source I can find puts the two consoles neck and neck... "technically".

Unless Sony has made some, new, recent announcement about their hardware, that just sounds like Sony Fanboy wishful thinking.

Nintendo DS vs. Sony PSP?

[Psx29]

I think if nintendo is bringing the same innovative ideas to the console market that they first brought with handhelds. Consoles need a new gimmick in game design and this might just be the thing to bring life and innovation back to video games again.

Re:Nintendo DS vs. Sony PSP?

[nickyj]

Exactly, Nintendo can easily port all the DS games (and improve them) that utilize the touch screen to the Revolution. The controller is basically a stylus and the button is just to say "touch". I love all the games that use the touch screen and barely if at all the buttons on the DS.

Re:For any other company, it would just be a gimmi

[VGPowerlord]

I see sticks, but I'm not seeing analog. At the very least, the default controller wasn't analog (something not even Sony managed until the PS2).

Sony managed it with the Playstation Dual Shock, which replaced the old playstation main system in stores in 1998/1999.

It didn't rumble. The dual analog controller was just that: a standard PSX controller with two sticks.

"This rumble feature is similar to the one featured on the first edition of the Japanese Dual Analog, a feature that was removed shortly after that controller was released." -- Wikipedia entry for DualShock. If you don't trust Wikipedia, JFGI, and you'll get more sites that note that the first edition of the Dual Analog in Japan did indeed have Force Feedback.

Re:For any other company, it would just be a gimmi

[Fred Or Alive]

Xbox, as it's controllers are mostly ripoffs of the Dreamcast pad, use analogue triggers like the Sega analogue pads. The main face buttons are also analogue like the PS2 pad.

Re:For any other company, it would just be a gimmi

[Fred Or Alive]

Didn't one of the Atari consoles have an analogue joystick? (It was infamous for not being self-centreing IIRC). Plus PCs had them for years beforehand...

Although I think Nintendo may have invented the thumbstick, the N64 design was rather unique, and they then copied the Dualshock style stick for the Gamecube.

Re:For any other company, it would just be a gimmi

[Guppy06]

"Sony managed it with the Playstation Dual Shock, which replaced the old playstation main system in stores in 1998/1999."

But there were still PSX consoles in the wild that didn't come with the DualShock, and those folks had to buy a DualShock as an accessory. You couldn't guarantee that a PSX owner had a DualShock any more than you could guarantee that a Genesis owner had the Arcade Pad (or a Sega CD, for that matter). Because of that, 99+% of the games published for the PSX, even well after the release of the DualShock, were backwards-compatible with the original digital pad.

The first Sony console where every user was guaranteed to have analog control and rumble was the PS2.

All on Nintendo's Shoulders

[MrJack5304]

The key to Nintendo's success rests solely on their shoulders. If Nintendo can hold the hands of all the developers and fans out there like they did with the DS they will almost definitely see success. If they don't have a plethora of games that people must have at release they will have a tough time gaining marketshare. Nintendo has to wow the world and truly bring in the "non-gamer" demographic.

Just as Nintendo did with the DS, they should push innovation from 3rd parties and try to have exclusive Revolution features that makes people want the Revolution to play the games rather than an XBOX 360 or a PS3. Nintendo has alot of work to do if they will take over the world again, but I definitely think it is possible.

I have no doubts that the Revolution will kick ass but I know plenty of people who do have doubts. Nintendo has to wow the hell out of these individuals if they expect to be #1 again.

Re:For any other company, it would just be a gimmi

[Anonymous Coward]

Atari 5200. ...and they sucked .. hard.

Two words: "Mario Swords"

[indytx]

Or "Mario Joust."

"Mario Melee."

That controller offers many avenues to stress relief.

Could it be the downfall of the "button pusher?"

Re:Did Sony make a new announcement?

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft did it to themselves.

They released a fairly limited storage medium for their system (DVD) AND compounded it via two models that included or excluded a hard drive. Standardization is part of what makes consoles good. MS realizes this themselves with their methods and standards for releases BUT they failed to create a unified single base because they wanted options. The system is very limited versus the PS3 at least initially and really I have my doubts about whether MS can get people to upgrade. Both systems have caps on their max polygons but the PS3 has more leeway on textures, prerendered video and sound. Having seen some PS3 games in action (UT2007 and others) I have to say that while the 360 may have the benefit of an initial ease to develop for the PS3 is a better console both in potential and in practise assuming HD output. On standard deffinition televisions the results are similar and in some cases (at least right now) the 360 has the edge. Thing is as the systems evolve the 360's limitations in both storage and polygons will likely hamstring developers compared to those on the PS3.

Finally the new Sony controller is quite the improvement over their initial albatross. It's not a Revolution quality improvement to how games are played but it is marginally better than the 360. The whole tactile feel of the trim (three colours initially) replete with preasure sensitive buttons that just beg for racing games (gass and brakes) and a more clunky botton (5 stages of depress and a thunk as you hit each one) that I believe will lend more immersion to the games. When you press down you really feel the depress and the controller is comfortable to feel like you are losing your fingers in the buttons caverns. It's very unique and at first unsettling.

Finally I am not a Sony fangirl and will likely sit this whole stage of systems out. I just don't have time for these games.

Well

[Sv-Manowar]

To be honest I can't see the Revolution being the most popular console on the market, it is the kind of gaming system that will be fun for Multiplayer when you have friends around but you won't be able to sit for hours on it yourself playing some of the games, which is why the PS2 and Xbox toppled the Gamecube last generation. People don't always want to play games with their friends, which is why the whole games industry push on Online play is a bit rushed at the minute. Most of the time when I turn a console on I just want to relax and play, not enter into a 4 way online championship tournament battle.

It could happen

[TheSkepticalOptimist]

Personally, out of all the next-gen game consoles, the Revolution is the only one I am actively following in terms of online news and hanging on for any tidbit of details.

The Remote Commander may be hit or miss, I am sure there are many games that will use this gimmick to full advantage, as I am sure many users will simply buy a more traditional controller to play other games.

With the ability to play ALL back-library games as well, while the Revolution won't be the first game console to totally leverage it's past gaming success, Nintendo has had a longer history of success and a larger library of games today's gamers still want to actively play. Going back and playing the original NES Super Mario or Metroid, or a slew of NES and Super-NES game franchises is going to make the Revolution shine even if for nostalgia reasons alone.

It's also the simple fact that Nintendo is innovating in their next gen game console. Look, nodoby will deny that there is some great state-of-the-art technology going into the Xbox360 and PS3, but all they are doing is offering better graphics, the games themselves have the same game play and feel as PS2 and Xbox games. Nintendo may win out just because the gaming industry is becoming tired of sequels without new and interesting methods of gameplay. The Remote Commander controller may be just what Nintendo needs to get gamers interested in gaming again.

Whether the novel controller will keep users interested in the Revolution, one can turn to the DS, which I firmly thought was a gimmick and fad that wouldn't last. The DS is still selling well and new and innovative games are coming out to leverage this feature over a year later.

If all the PS3 and Xbox360 offers is superior graphics, I think they may find Nintendo giving them a run for the money. I personally will embrace any new styles of gameplay, I am tired of 3rd person shooters and platform jumpers. The only thing that could ruin Nintendo is their continued belief that only children are interested in gaming. With a heavy focus on cartoony and childish game titles, if Nintendo doesn't start getting adult gamers more interested in their platforms, then no gimmicky feature will save Nintendo in the long run.

Re:It could happen

[jchenx]

The backwards compatibility story with the Revolution is very interesting, but we need more details to know what it entails. Here's my guess as to what it will be: all Gamecube games are backwards compatible, no matter who the published (just stick in the disc). However, for the N64/SNES/NES, only Nintendo-published titles will be available for purchase via download. I highly doubt it's the "every N64/SNES/NES game ever made!" scenario that a lot of folks think it'll be, because of all the re-licensing that would need to be done. Still, that's a LOT of games, and would instantly bring a lot of attention to the console for old-time Nintendo fanbois (like myself).

As for console innovation, a lot of folks seem to forget all of the added Live functionality that the 360 brings to the table. You know the thing about being able to play old games on new consoles? The 360 is doing that NOW, thanks to the Live Arcade. At CES, they just announced that Street Fighter II will be on its way. The arcade is already home to many indie games (Wik: Fable of Souls, Mutant Storm, etc.) and retro titles (Gauntlet, Joust, Smash TV). Heck, IGN had a poll of users clamoring for what they want to see next: http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/681/681415p1.html/ .

It's good to see two out of the three console companies realizing that there's a growing demand for retro gaming. One wonders if there's some Sony exec running around like his head's cut off because there's nothing like that in mind for the PS3, and it's a bit too late to get started on it.

Re:It could happen

[prezkennedy.org]

"As for console innovation, a lot of folks seem to forget all of the added Live functionality that the 360 brings to the table. You know the thing about being able to play old games on new consoles? The 360 is doing that NOW, thanks to the Live Arcade. At CES, they just announced that Street Fighter II will be on its way. The arcade is already home to many indie games (Wik: Fable of Souls, Mutant Storm, etc.) and retro titles (Gauntlet, Joust, Smash TV)."

Somehow I don't see spending $300+ dollars a good investment at all to play generic old games that can be found at just about every Shockwave/Flash gaming website on the Internet.

I don't need some uber powerful "next-gen" system to play the games you mentioned. I just need to blow the dust off the SNES. Using a super computer (relative to the games) to play Joust, Smash TV, or Street Fighter II and then claiming it's a selling point is just stupid. Are the new super-duper, next-gen games really that much crap that you're tired of playing them already?

Re:It could happen

[Pouvoir]

The fact that there will be a content rating system on the Rev might be an indication that we'll see a lot more adult-oriented games this upcoming generation. Here's to hoping at least.

Re:It could happen

[justchris]

Not every game, no. But most of the big 3rd parties (EA, Konami, Capcom, Square-Enix, Midway, Activision and others) are sure to relicense and sell their games. They might be more expensive than the 1st party titles, but they'll be there. I don't know any of those companies that will actively turn down free money.

The only ones you're liable to have trouble with are games no one is sure who holds the rights to, and games made by developers that are now owned by Sony or Microsoft (some of Rare's games, for instance, are up in the air over whether they will be available, most notably Goldeneye, for a plethora of reasons).

Re:It could happen

[jchenx]

Somehow I don't see spending $300+ dollars a good investment at all to play generic old games that can be found at just about every Shockwave/Flash gaming website on the Internet.

I don't need some uber powerful "next-gen" system to play the games you mentioned. I just need to blow the dust off the SNES. Using a super computer (relative to the games) to play Joust, Smash TV, or Street Fighter II and then claiming it's a selling point is just stupid. Are the new super-duper, next-gen games really that much crap that you're tired of playing them already?

I totally agree that spending $300+ on a console JUST so you can play retro titles is pretty stupid. However, I wasn't saying the Live Arcade is the ONLY reason to get a 360, or that the Nintendo-library was the ONLY reason to get the Revolution. It's a very nice additional feature to have. Besides, not EVERYONE has a copy of those games for a working console anymore. (I don't know about you, but my SNES and NES are thousands of miles away) Sure, I could spend X amount of time and money to try to find those titles, either original copies or some clone for free on the Internet. Or I could just spend $5-10 to play Zelda within a few minutes. I have a job, so I'm not above paying a bit for the convenience. (I'm hoping Nintendo sticks to prices like that, I don't think I'd pay much above that though)

That said, apparently a lot of people are hooked to the Live Arcade games (especially Geometry Wars). I think it's silly too, since some of the games (Bejeweled 2 and Zuma) have been on the web for years, but to each his own. I'm not going to argue with what people enjoy playing. I don't know about you, but once the Revolution comes out, I'll probably be spending quite a bit of dough on the old Zelda games.

Re:It could happen

[jchenx]

It's not just a matter of re-licensing, but the testing of all these titles too. I don't want to spend X dollars on the original Final Fantasy game, only for it to bomb out right before I get to the last boss. That's a lot of work.

But you do bring a good point ... it's hard to turn down free money. Besides, a lot of those companies are already relicensing and working on retro titles on the 360 Live Arcade, so I imagine you may see the same ones on the Revolution. (I wonder, will Nintendo also offer newer indie titles as well?)

Controller

[Anonymous Coward]

Am I the only one who thinks the controller is very NOT appealing?

Re:Controller

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, you are.

Re:Controller

[mouse_clicker]

Just like Sony is replicating the DS's obvious success with the PSP, eh? When's that new model, with the second screen, the microphone, and the touch screen due to hit the market? Logically speaking, shouldn't Sony be following Nintendo's lead? I mean, the DS is outselling the PSP almost 2:1 worldwide, and lately more than 4:1 in Japan.

The problem is, if Sony replicated the DS's design now, it'd be too late. They waited to see if it would take off and hedged their bets on a conventional handheld. Now that it's clear that the best route was Nintendo's, Nintendo has already stolen the market and locked it up- they have the home field advantage, as well as the experience and user base, if Sony wants to try to challenge them on it.

Now look at the Revolution- if the Revolution does what Nintendo wants it do that, then they'll basically be replicating the DS's success in the home console market. Sony and Microsoft will be hedging their bets on a generic home console while Nintendo tries something new. If the Revolution takes off, it'll be too late for Sony and Microsoft to follow suit- they'll have to compete with an established system, an established user base, and Nintendo's experience with it. They'll be at a serious disadvantage.

It's doubtful that will even happen, though- I severely doubt, regardless of the Revolution's success, that conventional gaming will fade away, certainly not in one generation. I think the Revolution is going to end up coexisting with the XBox 360 and PS3, rather than taking sales away from them. I think you'll see houses with a Revolution and a PS3, or a Revolution and an XBox 360, sort of the best of both worlds. Sony and Microsoft aren't going to need to compete with the Revolution- that's not their game, it's not their field. They're better than Nintendo at the conventional system, and as long as the Revolution isn't seriously encroaching on that, I think they'd much rather stick with it than risk everything by taking on Nintendo face-to-face. Sony and Microsoft have each other to worry about- I don't think they can live together peacefully, I think one of them is going to slip and fall, and whoever comes out on top will be sitting comfortably on the conventional game market while Nintendo sits comfortably on the unconventional game market. I think that's much more likely than Nintendo taking over the entire industry all at once. That's not going to happen, and I don't think that's what Nintendo is trying to do.

Sony and Microsoft took away Nintendo's games and changed the rules. Now Nintendo is going to go make a new game.

-Moses

Re:Controller

[Anonymous Coward]

Ever since enormous demand brought shipments of new DS systems to a halt in Japan during late December, used DS systems have shot up $250 in some areas, Nintendo has apologized for the shortage, and the PSP has managed to sell a few more (on the order of less than a few thousand more) units than Nintendo DS systems in Japan for the most recently tracked week. Yes, it took that much for the PSP to outsell the DS ever since the DS started outpacing the PSP regularly (early-mid 2005).

When DS supplies are replenished, the DS is going to shoot over PSP's head once again. It's guaranteed at this point.

Re:Controller

[Raenex]

No, you are not. Maybe it'll be good, but I have my reservations. For one, the idea reminds me of playing air guitar. Without the feedback of something real in your hands (like a wheel in a racing game), I'm not sure if the experience will match up with the concept. I also wonder if it will be too easy to "spatially move" the controller by accident.

Re:Controller

[justchris]

No you're not.

Many found it very unappealing at first, I know about 15 people who've since changed their mind. I know even more who are still unconvinced. But so few people have actually gotten to play with it, there's still plenty of time for opinions to change. For better or worse.

Re:Controller

[buffer-overflowed]

It's called patent infringement. Nintendo owns the patents on both the gyro/acellerometer tech via a controlling interest in Gyration and numerous patents related to the interface in regards to gaming. There are very few companies that get into the HCI stuff, and if the rev controller works as well as some people say it does, none of them can approach the tech in that controller.

The only other option is outright theft/infringement and hoping you gain enough of a foothold in the interim to offset the enormous losses you're going to get from the impending lawsuit(sony and the dual-shock!). Which is fucking awful behavior to encourage.

If the controller excites you, you buy a rev. Plain and simple. It's not only the right thing to do, it's probably the only thing you can do.

"The Gamecube/Xbox sold a hundred billion units"

[Headcase88]

You know what my favourite type of comment on Slashdot is? The type of comment both this post and the grandparent made when they pulled out a bunch of numbers without a URL to back it up.

(My second favourite type of post is a tie between unneccesary sarcasm and blatant hypocracy)

As for the Revo, don't underestimate it. I completely agree with Nintendo's sentiment that Sony and MS are moving in the wrong direction. High costs, high prices, system shortages, and the like.

Personally, I don't even really care about the differences between the 360 and a plain vanilla XBox (or Gamecube for that matter, though PS2 draws the line). The graphics, while better, don't affect the gameplay, and don't get me any more into the game at all. But I know lots of people who do feel a big difference, so fair enough. Clearly, all the consoles will have a good share or supporters, with the Revo being the most "different" of the three.

Hopefully Nintendo will be smart enough to get kiosks wherever they can, not just in game retail stores. The low price is really going to help them in some markets, and the controller is another big point. Hopefully, they'll fund indie companies to make games for their console as they claimed they would, because that'd be another big draw for me.

Re:For any other company, it would just be a gimmi

[VGPowerlord]

But there were still PSX consoles in the wild that didn't come with the DualShock, and those folks had to buy a DualShock as an accessory. You couldn't guarantee that a PSX owner had a DualShock any more than you could guarantee that a Genesis owner had the Arcade Pad (or a Sega CD, for that matter). Because of that, 99+% of the games published for the PSX, even well after the release of the DualShock, were backwards-compatible with the original digital pad.

Backwards compatibility doesn't stop games from working with both. Most PS games made in 1998 and later support the left analog stick, and a good number support vibration.

Why does one console have to dominate?

[c0d3h4x0r]

I don't get why everyone keeps wanting one console or another to dominate the marketplace. Fanboyism aside, is there any good reason why the market shouldn't be pretty evenly split among 3 or 4 consoles from 3 or 4 solid companies? Why does coming in second or third have to equate to failure? Why do gamers feel they have to buy the dominant thing just because it's dominant?

I for one love my GameCube. I never got into XBOX because of the type of games that were mainly available for it, and I never got as much into PS2 because you had to hunt harder to weed out the good games from the crap and the games and system both cost more. I don't care that the GameCube is reaching its end-of-life phase, nor do I care that it isn't the dominant console or is frequently ridiculed by "hardcore" gamers as being "for kids". It's fun, it's simple, the games don't require a 4-hour time investment just to learn how to play them, it always works, and the price is right. Why should anything else matter?

Re:Why does one console have to dominate?

[Anonymous Coward]

Because if one console is truly dominant it gets all the developer interest (more potential profit), and therefore more games, therefore your particular tastes are more likely to be satisfied.

e.g. I've got a GC. If GC had sold twice as many as PS2, I'd have copies of Katamari Damancy, Ico, Shadow of the Colossus and Disagea for my cube right now. Nintendo games are fucking awesome, and I love the opportunity to play their exclusives. But to play everything I want I need to spend more cash on redundant hardware and add yet more wires under my TV.

Re:Why does one console have to dominate?

[MMaestro]

Fanboyism aside, is there any good reason why the market shouldn't be pretty evenly split among 3 or 4 consoles from 3 or 4 solid companies?

Economics basically.

1 company/console = bad. No competition leads to no progress/innovation/change. (See: Atari, Madden series, and Microsoft's Windows.)
2~3 companies/consoles = good. Competition goes insane trying to outdo one another leads to mass innovations/changes. Consumers win and (generally) the fight boils down to two remaining victors. (See: SNES vs Genesis war with the Jaguar being the 3rd and the loser)
4+ companies/consoles = awful. Market turns into a mess. 3rd party developers don't know who to support, consumers are left confused and angry by exclusives on systems they didn't buy, and it basicly turns into a 'who can out bleed money longer than the others' fight. (See: early video game console history)

Controller

[FadedTimes]

Nothing will stop Sony and Microsoft making their own Revolution type controller, just like both companies did analog and rumble after the N64 created it.

People need to stop focusing so much on the controller.

Re:"Japanese nationalism hurt 360 sales"? Bullshit

[hambonewilkins]

Um, are there Japanese-made alternatives to the American-made MS Windows? Some hot Japanese operating system that people are latching onto? No?

Are there Japanese-made, Japanese-backed gaming console alternatives to the American backed Xbox 360?

I guess I therefore fail to see your point. If you brought in products for which there are Japanese alternatives, then I might begin to see it.

Re:For any other company, it would just be a gimmi

[hal2814]

The Atari 5200 had analog sticks before 1982. Not that they were any good. Now if you mean only self-centering or functional analog sticks, I'll give that to you for the Arcadia.

Re:For any other company, it would just be a gimmi

[VGPowerlord]

According to the sources I was reading when I wrote that, the 5200 was also in 1982. I wasn't sure which was first. I could have listed both, but I was lazy.

Re:For any other company, it would just be a gimmi

[briankoenig]

Yes, "gimmick" is what Nintendo-naysayers were saying about the DS too, but then it launched, got a load of incredibly good games, and became the fastest selling console in history. 13 million consoles sold don't lie, or the fact that while Xbox 360 was getting all the hype, the DS/Nintendogs bundle was going for $250+ on eBay.

Two reasons why Wavebird may not work

[tepples]

the model that was shown at last year's E3 had a full set of Gamecube controller and memory card ports on the side.

Those may not be compatible with Wavebird controllers for either or both of the following reasons:

• Wavebird controllers may use the same frequency but a different protocol from the Revolution console's native wireless controllers.
• The Wavebird transceiver is curved to match the curve on the front of the GameCube console where the controllers plug in, and the curves may not match those of the Revolution console's GameCube controller ports.

keeping legacy controller ports is so last generation.

At least NES and Super NES controller ports weren't physically compatible but they were electrically compatible. Same with Xbox and Xbox 360 controller ports.

Pikcraft

[tepples]

Was there anything even CLOSE to Pikmin on any other system?

RTS with heroes? Warcraft 3 was close.

Re:Pikcraft

[Rallion]

...Did you even play Pikmin? It's as much thrid-person adventure as RTS -- you only control one character.

Simple.

[Anonymous Coward]

The reason I want Revolution to dominate?

So I can have some damned games already.

Though I've been playing since the late 2600 days, my purchases peaked in the early 1990s. Why? Because most games worth anything (and plenty that weren't) hit Genesis AND (!) SuperNES (even the still-kicking NES in some cases). I wasn't shut out of very much besides Sega's in house stuff and people on the other side were in the same boat. Both got Street Fighter 2, Earthworm Jim, FIFA 1996, etc.

When the Ultra 64 was released, all of that changed. Suddenly it was CD this and CD that. Nevermind the load times and scratching, nobody'd touch the N64 cartridges with a 10 foot pole, opting instead for winners like the Saturn and 3D0. Nintendo finally does a 180 to shut people up and developers still shun the GameCube, in spite of it all (consoles weren't ready for optical media or 3D in 1995 IMO). They consistently produce a quality product that everyone espouses to want but they're punished at each and every opportunity for it.

It's like having an Apple computer (moreso before OSX than now but still applicable). Your choices are, essentially, buying Nintendo software (which is excellent but beside the point) or doing without. I refuse to reward the thinking at places like EA that cause this situation by ignoring a market with "only" 22 million machines and every PS or XBox bought is a vote to destroy Nintendo by perpetuating this situation.

It's become readily apparent that the only way I'll ever see a great selection of games again is if Nintendo comes out on top or I follow the sheeple and buy the competition too and I'll be damned if I do the latter willingly.

Re:Two words: "Mario Swords"

[tepples]

Or "Mario Joust."

Been done. It was called Balloon Fight.

Foolish article mistake

[Anonymous Coward]

"In Japan, as usual, an American-made (or rather, American-designed) product has flopped. Like countless other American companies, Microsoft has faced a stiff, impenetrable and informal wall of Japanese nationalism which clings stubbornly to a Japanese product. In short, one of the three key markets for the Xbox 360 is denied."

This guy is still stuck on the nationalism rant that everyone should know better about by now. If you get stuck in that trap, you will never get out.

I promise everyone reading this: Microsoft is not shaking their heads, wondering about nationalism or racism.

WEll, IMHO

[Brothernone]

well, as I see things the uber Fanboy i am, I think this system has some amazing potential. I have no doubt Sony and Microsoft will soon have a controller just like it, but the point is that Nintendo had it first. They started the IDEA of an extremely functional controller. It's progressed from a pad with buttons to a spacialy aware peice of hardware. I myself and really hoping that Nintendo does fantastic with this system. I really think that having the ENTIRE Nintendo catalog at gamers' disposal is what will be the desisive factor for most people. Who didn't spend weeks at a time playing SNES games. Granted the Virtual Boy didn't do great, but i loved it. It was an amazingly fun system. The Revolution's ability to do things no other system can right now, and having Nintendo's entire game base is sure to make the Revolution king. Even if i'm the only poor fool to own, I'll love every minute of it.

Patents

[PhysSurfer]

Nintendo holds the patents to stop this, at least in the immediate future.

Re:"The Gamecube/Xbox sold a hundred billion units

[Anonymous Coward]

Would kiosks really be good for rev when the controller would have to be attached to the kiosk?

Let me check the 8 ball..

[AzraelKans]

Ok no one knows yet what will happen in the next generation I will give you that, but heres what we do know, the xbox 360 just wont cut it in Japan and that alone means MS just wont win the console war no matter how you slice it,

Yes Nintendo with its new controller looks like a winner, unfortunately thats exactly the problem. whenever you mention good things about revolution you mention the controller and maybe price. Why? because the rest of the revolution is simply not impressive for starters the revolution wont have HD support, HDD or HD-DVD support. thats a lot of H' and D's missing there.

But thats not all, If you go and check the suggested specs for the revolution at IGN you will be shocked or to realize the revolution is only 2 times the power of the cube (bad!) even xbox 360 (which is suposedly the lesser of the two evils) can pull up to 6 times the CPU power of the xbox (and the xbox already has a better cpu than the cube).

Price is indeed a good deal .. for parents, adults and tech savy are a bit less touchy on the subject specially in countries where electronic geeks roam, remember that thing sony made the PSX the ps2 with a DVD-writer that was sold at $700 bucks? it sold out, I still cant get my head around that.

Ok so heres the deal, be honest, lets supose you are a regular guy (in case you are a Nintendo fan boy) , suddenly you spot MGS4, Gran turismo 4 and Final Fantasy 7-Remade in a HD-DVD format which allows up to 50 hours of photorealistic gameplay and it costs $500 for the entire package, and in the other hand you have Revolution with the controller and all and a copy of metroid prime that looks just a bit better than the previous version it costs $300. just for the sake of the argument lets suppose you have the extra $600 which one would you pick? be honest now.

Just to make you feel better (if you are a nintendo fanboy) dont worry, Nintendo doesnt really in "winning" the console race, it doesnt have to, Nintendo relies in the casual gamer providing original (or at least good) gameplay and fans to get a very good profit and at the end thats what it matters for a game any) company anyway.

Re:Let me check the 8 ball..

[Anonymous Coward]

Who cares if the Revolution doesn't have HD output? The few poeple who bought HD TVs, and are actually able to notice the difference between a HD and non-HD signal. Essentially, that's NOBODY. Certainly not the people Nintendo are aiming for.

The Cube is actually a very powerful machine. The CPU is pretty much the equal of the Xbox CPU, possibly faster, despite not having as high a clock speed. For general purpose calculation, either of them beats the snot out of the PS2's EE, even if the EE can hold it's own in vector calculations (which is has to - the PS2's GS has no hardware T&L). The graphics hardware is far superior to the Xbox's GPU is some respects (mostly multitexturing), and equal in just about every other way, except for the lack of vertex shaders. It does have an equivalent to pixel shaders though (register combiners - the same hardware the Xbox pixel shaders are implemented on), with a slightly different programming model but the same capabilities.

The proof is in the games, of course. Xbox games tend to push graphics very, very heavily. Xbox developers seem to devote 90% of their resources to graphics, competing with each other for the spangliest doodads. On the Gamecube side, only Nintendo put much effort into Gamecube development. They don't really care much about modelling the physical properties of human sweat, or whatever other junk most other developers feel obliged to occupy themselves with. Still, Twilight Princess seems to look far better than most Xbox games, and back when the Cube was released Rouge Squadron beat anything available for any console. Not bad for a console that can be manufactured for less than half what it cost to make an Xbox.

Nintendo have claimed that the Revolution is 2 to 3 times more powerful than the Gamecube. All the specs on IGN are bullshit, since Nintendo hasn't announced anything and has no plans to do so. We already know that the CPUs in the PS3 and Xbox 360 suck at general purpose calculations, and that Nintendo doesn't agree with their design. So they'll probably use a more traditional CPU. 2 to 3 times more powerful than the Gamecube's 450MHz Gecko would put it as equal to (or, more likely, better than) the general purpose performance of the Cell or X360's CPU, but without the vector capabilities. Considering the design of the Gamecube and Nintendo's past consoles, they probably have some way to make up for that somewhere. Certainly, developing for the Revolution will be different than the other consoles, but they're quite different from each other anyway. The tri-core approach of the 360 is nothing at all like the single core plus vector coprocessors approach of the PS3.

Graphically, I don't see a problem. Not being HD-capable means that you don't have to store as many textures, you don't have to process quite as many vertices, and you don't have to draw as many pixels on the screen. If you take into account the HD requirement of the PS3 and Xbox 360, their graphics systems are only 2 or 3 times as powerful as the Xbox. They just need to be able to render six times as many pixels at once.

Just to give you an idea - seperate generations of PC graphics hardware rarely have even twice the performance of their ancestors. Look at the difference in PC graphics hardware in the last five years. Newer cards are maybe four times more powerful than the stuff that was available at the time of the Xbox.

Re:Let me check the 8 ball..

[justchris]

The problem is you're doing arithmetic calculations, not logarithmic calculations. You're also not taking construction into consideration.

The reason the 360 is more powerful than the Xbox is not because it has a super fast processor and impressive GPU. The reason it's more powerful is that, unlike the original Xbox, it was constructed like a game machine, not like a computer.

The Gamecube is the best constructed game console out currently (even better than the 360). Sure it's processor is only 384MHz, but it runs with about 4% wasted processor cycles. No matter how fast your processor is, you can never output information faster than you can grab it out of RAM. The the GC uses faster RAM than the 360 does, so while the 360 can perform nice physics calculations and whatnot, it's still wasting 30% of it's processor cycles waiting for RAM.

If the RAM on the Rev is twice as fast as the RAM on the GC, the fact that there's only 84 MB of it won't matter, because it'll process just as much data as the 360 does, at roughly the same speed, because it's not wasting it's time waiting to get the information.

Re:"Japanese nationalism hurt 360 sales"? Bullshit

[neutralstone]

> Um, are there Japanese-made alternatives to the American-made MS Windows?

Yes. Maybe the most commercially successful one of this century is Chokanji.  It's a nice environment, highly responsive, and has the shortest boot-up time I've ever seen for a desktop OS released near the turn of the century. (It's been a few years since I used version 3, so my memory's fuzzy, but I think it was about five seconds -- possibly less -- from the end of BIOS loading to a usable desktop on a 1GHz Athlon Thunderbird box.)

> Some hot Japanese operating system that people are latching onto? No?

It's not terribly popular, but those who decided to use it did latch on, mainly because it has useful features not found in Microsoft's offerings. And it's still on the market.

But I digress...

Microsoft was not always the dominant OS vendor in Japan.  See some of the more obscure names in the Japanese Wikipedia entry for operating systems.  Google a bit; you can see that there was a time when the OS-ecosystem there was much more diverse than it is today.  And yet, an American company took control of that market.   So, when Jakub Wojnarowicz claims that "a stiff, impenetrable and informal wall of Japanese nationalism" is part of what's keeping Microsoft from dominating the gaming industry too, I call bullshit.  It's not *nationalisnm* that makes Japanese users cling to certain computer products that just happen to be created by companies whose world headquarters are in Japan.  It's *preference* for one product over another, just the way it is in the rest of the world.

In the case of the XBox 360, we can blame supply problems and a small game library.  Oh, and a high price.  Compare that to the existing cheaper systems in abundant supply with huge libraries and expectations of better systems yet to come that will maintain full compatibility with existing libraries  -- unlike Microsoft's platform -- and you can only conclude that the 360 will sell poorly *regardless* of the would-be consumers' nationality.

Unlicensed NES games?

[tepples]

With the ability to play ALL back-library games as well

I betcha it won't have the NES version of Klax because Midway (whose computer and console division was called Tengen at the time) didn't have an NES development license when Klax was produced. It's a shame because the NES version of Klax had better control and sound than the arcade version that was included on Midway's collection.

And what about the Wisdom Tree games, whose very premise (video game adaptation of biblical stories) violated NOA's anti-religion policy at the time (which is why so many games' medkits had hearts instead of red crosses)?

Re:For any other company, it would just be a gimmi

[Anonymous Coward]

You are, unfortunately, pointing out Wikipedia's major flaw: the web-to-Wikipedia-to-web feedback loop. As any importer who is worth his salt and who was around in the early PS days will tell you, there was NO Dual Analog controller that featured rumble. No alleged feature removal ever took place, and there is no Japanese-language gaming history site that references any sort of Dual Analog controller that features rumble.

Some facts:

The already long-established SNES controller led directly to the development of the original PS controller. Given the Playstation's heritage as a Nintendo-Sony collaboration, this was obvious. Sony's ridiculous asymmetrical prototype controller designs were mere red herrings and mock-ups.

The 1995 announcement of the c.1996 N64's controller led directly to the development of the Saturn 3D pad and the Dual Analog controller. Sonic Team had already started work on Nights into Dreams by that time, however.

The 1996 announcement of the c.1997 Rumble Pak led directly to the development of the Dual Shock controller, which was the FIRST console controller from any console manufacturer to feature rumble motors built directly into the controller itself.

Re:For any other company, it would just be a gimmi

[ClamIAm]

Not to mention ROB and the 64 DD. But seriously, I think that the directional pad, shoulder buttons, the ability to play your handheld games on your TV, the analog stick, four controller ports standard, first-party wireless controllers that actually works, dual + touchscreen on a handheld, and a wi-fi service for handhelds kinda outweigh Nintendo's bad products. And this is not counting what the Rev will do (the controller, Nintendo's back catalog, wi-fi for the console). I have a sneaking suspicion that one of those will take off.

It's also not just on the hardware side that Nintendo's influence has spread throughout the industry. I'm not going to list them here, but you probably know the games that I'm thinking of.

Re:Two words: "Mario Swords"

[ClamIAm]

As long as you can stab the dog from Duck Hunt, I'll be there.

Re:Did Sony make a new announcement?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Finally I am not a Sony fangirl and will likely sit this whole stage of systems out. I just don't have time for these games."

Whah...? That sounds a little too familiar for me.

You don't work at an EB in Northern California, do you, AC?

Online service

[Bongo Bill]

I can foresee Nintendo's online service - downloading the backlog and perhaps a few independent titles - becoming the console equivalent of Steam and/or Gametap. The controller's awesome, sure - but it's the online service that's the really exciting part.

If they license out access to that service to other hardware manufacturers, there's a good chance of creating an industry standard. Of course, Nintendo makes a killing from its own hardware; why would they want to give up that advantage?

Not quite poetic.

[Anonymous Coward]

The Nintendo-versus-Sega fight was more of a fair competition between two legitimate games companies. Neither of these companies had other divisions upon which they could fall in the case of failure.

Contrast this with Nintendo's current competition. We see Nintendo (an actual video games company) versus Sony (who makes TVs, music, movies, DVD players, stereo systems.. and, oh yeah by-the-way, gaming consoles) versus Microsoft (who makes computer operating systems, various utility software, business software, networking,.. and, oh yeah, just recently gaming consoles).

Relatively speaking, this is a David-verus-Goliath-versus-Goliath battle. I'm impressed that Nintendo is doing this well, considering how the persistent attempts by Sony and MS to simply buy their ways the industry..

(Speaking of "poetic" --> please type the word in this image: villains)

Re:Did Sony make a new announcement?

[justchris]

Whoa, wait, you're the first person I've heard who's actually held the PS3 controller. How is the analog control on it?

Re:For any other company, it would just be a gimmi

[justchris]

I'm not entirely sure I see what your problem with gimmicks are my friend.

Shoulder buttons were considered a gimmick when they were first announced on the SNES.

Dedicated camera controls were considered a gimmick when they were announced for the n64, as was the controller expansion slot, and force feedback (which Nintendo announced before Sony added it standard to their controllers).

No one called the analog thumbstick a gimmick, but they did call dual screens, and touch screens a gimmick. But so are microphones, bongos, cameras and what-not. Let's not forget the gameboy camera predates the eyetoy by more than 5 years.

Just because something is a gimmick doesn't mean it's not worthwhile. It only remains a gimmick until it becomes the standard. So the Rev controller may be gimmicky today, but I'm willing to bet that many of it's features will be standard in the following generation of controllers.

Grand!

[Anonymous Coward]

I work at EA... idiots abound.... sure they know how to work a process and fit into the (still being developed) production framework... but do they have a clue how to make good games? Nooo... they can only make good games into shitty games...

And now this company realizes they have lost sight of how to judge their own quality... get real... some of us who have worked for you have known this for years... it didn't take analysis provided by idiots to realize this... it took our ability to measure a game (for those of you at EA wondering how to identify this or who these people are, it's easy - it's anyone around you who slanders your work... that's me and I'm quite vocal about it!)

ps: you're all idiots... game industry was up last year, christmas sales were down, new technology was featured around Ipod et al, not video games (xbox live arcade was closest, and only exciting thing, to new technology *all* year)

ps: EA - you suck... idiots... let me teach you, but you are all scared for your jobs so you won't...

bigggest bunch of people who are unwilling to stick their neck out for success... don't believe me???

The article is wrong

[Doomstalk]

At the end of that same year, Microsoft released the most expensive console yet, and one that sold out but is plagued by continuing supply shortages.

This is just plain wrong. The Xbox 360 is far from the most expensive console yet. That honor goes to the NeoGeo, and that's before even accounting for inflation (or the games for that matter).

Re:The article is wrong

[Doomstalk]

Correction: The NeoGeo was indeed more expensive than the 360 at $599, but the 3DO was $699 at launch.

Re:"Japanese nationalism hurt 360 sales"? Bullshit

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess I therefore fail to see your point. If you brought in products for which there are Japanese alternatives, then I might begin to see it

iPod vs. Walkman.

You're welcome.

Are controller shells the real revolution?

[MacBoy1337]

When I first saw the Revolution's controllers, I thought they were neat and all, but couldn't ever imagine playing a game virtually like that for hours, like you would with a standard controller. It would be a neat thing for an arcade, but not a home console.

Then I heard about the controller 'shells'

(^ The pic is fake, but it demonstrates the concept).

It makes much more sense now.

You could be able to put your remote-style controller inside a gun, fishing rod, or even just a standard controller.

But how will we play the downloadable classic games? I can't imagine playing it on the Revolution's controller.

Here's what I think is going to happen:

Nintendo could make a 'shell' for each system! You could actually play mario bros. on the original, brick-style, NES controller, or, maybe later, emulate a third party classic like the Atari 2600, or Sega Genesis--using the original controller!

Personally, I can't wait. I'd pick the original Donkey Kong to Halo anyday.

This would also provide a legal alternative to downloading roms, and with the two built in USB 2.0 ports you might even be able to upload them to your computer. Then again, this could be used as a mini computer since it supports computer moniters--Plug in a keyboard and mouse and you're set!

And the predicted low price certainly doesn't hurt either :P. I just hope the download prices for the games are cheap as well.

Re:Are controller shells the real revolution?

[Kurayamino-X]

But how will we play the downloadable classic games? I can't imagine playing it on the Revolution's controller.

You turn the controller 90 degrees: BAM! NES controller.

Price?

[iamghetto]

"The cheapness of the console will help it sell and it's unlikely that Nintendo will face production shortages since it won't use exotic and difficult-to-make components."

Nintendo has recently stated that Revolution will be "under $300" and will be here for Thanksgiving. We all know that means $299. Not exactly cheap, though it should be possible for it to come in at lower price point considering it's relatively low-tech. Nintendo has a history of making a -profit- selling their consoles while Sony/Microsoft off technology that thus far have forced them to sell systems for a loss. All I'm saying is that Revolution might not be as cheap as we all hope.

Re: Here on Earth...

[Anonymous Coward]

http://forum.pcvsconsole.com/viewthread.php?tid=84 98&page=2

Worldwide Hardware Sales (End of September 2005)
PS2 - 96.01 million
Xbox - 22.5 to 23 million (unofficially estimated)
GameCube - 19.31 million
Game Boy Advance - 70.04 million
Nintendo DS - 8.83 million
PSP - 8.81 million
N-Gage - 2 million
PSone - 102.49 million

The figures are shipments (or "sales" to stores) using official manufacturer numbers, not from third party organizations such as NPD, Media Create, Chart Track, etc

Re:For any other company, it would just be a gimmi

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd say ROB worked out pretty well.