Slashdot Mirror


Words Affect Our Reality - On The Right

The Whorf hypothesis claims that one's native language influences perception and thought. Researchers at UC-Berkeley and U-Chicago reasoned that, since language is predominantly processed in the left hemisphere of the brain, any effect on perception should have an effect predominantly on the right visual field, which is also processed on the left. After comparing reaction times for hues of blue-green -- colors with distinct names in one language but not another -- they concluded, in a just-published paper, that the Whorf hypothesis holds for the right visual field, but not the left.

258 comments

  1. You learn something new every day. by TripMaster+Monkey · · Score: 5, Funny

    And all this time I thought the Worf hypothesis was just "Today is a good day to die.".

    ...the Whorf hypothesis holds for the right visual field, but not the left.

    Apparently the left visual field is "without honor".

    --
    ____

    ~ |rip/\/\aster /\/\onkey

    1. Re:You learn something new every day. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      And all this time I thought the Worf hypothesis was just "Today is a good day to die.".

      Close. It's actually "Good tea. Nice house."

    2. Re:You learn something new every day. by Gzip+Christ · · Score: 2, Funny
      And all this time I thought the Worf hypothesis was just "Today is a good day to die.".
      Don't be ridiculous - that's the Worf axiom.
  2. bi -lingual ?? by wesw02 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    What if one is Bi-Lingual natively?

    1. Re:bi -lingual ?? by Colosse · · Score: 1

      My wife and I speak 2 languages. We have kids at home, and of course we want them to learn both of these languages. But, for practicallity we taught one before the other to our kids. Why? Because we felt that they needed to know the language that was commonly used in our neibourghood. I'm not sure that one can have 2 native languages. There is always a first one, and then you learn more. What could influance maybe in my opinion is more the way that sentences are made in one language than the words that are used. I think that is what really affect the tought concept.

      --
      Colosse.
    2. Re:bi -lingual ?? by lbmouse · · Score: 2, Funny

      Bi-lingual?

      Then you are either a cunnilingus or a cunning linguist.

    3. Re:bi -lingual ?? by wesw02 · · Score: 0

      That is a good point. I know a few people that were actually taught both languages, almost if there parents where mixing the two (english & spanish), and as the child got old they where explained the difference in the two. I do agree though that only one is native, I suppose it's which ever is predominantly used around the child.

    4. Re:bi -lingual ?? by Roj+Blake · · Score: 1

      We are trying to figure this out right now. My wife speaks Bulgarian natively and English completely fluently. I speak English natively and can moderately understand Bulgarian. What my wife has read is that she should speak to the baby only in Bulgarian and I should speak only in English, and that way the baby can both learn/comprehend both languages and can also differentiate between the two. It's completely anecdotal, a few people in a popular forum explained this to her, but we also personally know a child who learned Russian and Bulgarian at the same time and will answer properly in whatever language a question is asked.

      --
      Auron may be different, Cally, but on Earth it is considered ill-mannered to kill your friends while committing suicide.
    5. Re:bi -lingual ?? by greginnj · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Nali taka? Ne e vazmozhno! Zhena mi e syshto Bulgarka!

      Our situation is even weirder; we met in France -- so we still speak French to each other. I speak English to the kids and she speaks Bulgarian to them (sometimes) and English sometimes. The kids are starting to pick up the French as well as the English and the Bulgarian. (Their Bulgarian gets more active after they spend the summer there.)

      The one principle we decided on very early was -- Complete Sentences Only! Either a full sentence in English, or a full sentence in French, or in Bulgarian -- no mixing languages. This way, we prevent corrupting the kids' grammar, let alone our own. I've heard stories that Turkish children growing up in Germany who end up speaking and hearing a mishmash of the two languages end up being fluent in neither -- and could be said to have no native language of their own.

      Do skoro!

      --
      Read the best of all of Slash: seenonslash.com
    6. Re:bi -lingual ?? by Knuckles · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Maybe another data point that helps. Someone I know is the daughter of an EU diplomat who has followed his frequent relocations. Being a diplomat's daughter, the schools she went to were good. She speaks German, English, French, Spanish, Italian, and Russian roughly equally well, i.e. fluently.

      She says that she feels to have no first language in which whe is completely competent and "home", and that this sucks. She feels that there is no one language in which she can express herself completely.
      Now, that might be a subjective feeling that not necessarily goes away if one does not have her "problem". I only speak German (first language) and English, and I surely don't feel completely competent in German, nor can I express myself "completely". One might even argue that if this was even possible, we would not have such a big body of adventurous poetry and prose in mature languages that over course of centuries tried ever new ways to express oneself "completely".
      That said, I think I can see her point.

      Questioned on the language she thinks in, she says that it depends on the language in which she first encountered a given topic or spent a lot of time to think about it. So, she thinks about relationship/"love" stuff in Spanish because she spent her first puberty years in Spain. And she thinks about professional problems in French because she studied mostly in France.

      --
      "When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
    7. Re:bi -lingual ?? by quokkapox · · Score: 1
      But, for practicallity we taught one before the other to our kids. Why?

      Why indeed. You passed up a chance to help your kids wire their brains to natively understand that there are many different ways of saying and understanding the same concepts, and of processing the same underlying symbolic ideas, and of expressing themselves in an appropriate way for different audiences.

      they needed to know the language that was commonly used in our neibourghood.

      They would have figured that out for themselves and learned much in the process of doing so.

      I'm glad my grandmothers sprinkled French and German and Czech into their conversations with me while they helped teach me how to speak proper English.

      --
      it's a blue bright blue Saturday hey hey
    8. Re:bi -lingual ?? by kfg · · Score: 1

      . . .a mishmash of the two languages end up being fluent in neither

      We call them The English.

      KFG

    9. Re:bi -lingual ?? by Roj+Blake · · Score: 1

      Da, I'm worried about deteto mixing languages aussi.

      Just out of curiosity where do you and your family spend the summer? I've been to BG many times with my wife, but we are planning our first trip with our newborn. Her family lives near Varna and near Oryahovo, and she has a lot of friends in Plovdiv. So on previous trips we've travelled extensively throughout BG, but this time with the baby I'm thinking to stay in one area, Varna or Sunny Beach maybe.

      --
      Auron may be different, Cally, but on Earth it is considered ill-mannered to kill your friends while committing suicide.
    10. Re:bi -lingual ?? by Knuckles · · Score: 1

      I've heard stories that Turkish children growing up in Germany who end up speaking and hearing a mishmash of the two languages end up being fluent in neither

      Sadly often true

      and could be said to have no native language of their own.

      Actually they do, it just starts to develop into something like "rastafarian vocabulary". (Note that I chose that entry instead of Jamaican English or Jamaican Creole because it partly is intentionally created.)

      --
      "When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
    11. Re:bi -lingual ?? by wesw02 · · Score: 0

      They would have figured that out for themselves and learned much in the process of doing so.

      I agree completely, I think most of us might be under estimating the ability of a young child to pick up a language. Children are like sponges, they will absorb it all, and their brains will begin to sort it out from the different interactions they have, TV, School, Peers, Family, etc.

    12. Re:bi -lingual ?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I actually learned in one of my linguistics classes that "code switching" by bi-linguals is done at a point that does not break the grammar of either language. So, if half my sentence is in English et demi est en Francais then I do not break either the Francais or English grammars at the point I switch languages (between "English" and "et" above).
      This was about 12 years ago, so there may be more recent data that conflicts with this.
      Here's some wiki-info about it:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code-switching
      My point in sharing this is that it may not be as detrimental to your childrens' language ability as you think.

    13. Re:bi -lingual ?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      This is very interesting. I wonder if an argument could be made that certain languages are more or less suited to certains tasks or subject domains. For example more "native" languages such as Lao, Hmong, Farsi, Oromo, etc may be better for family and community communications and have larger/richer vocabularies for these topics. But "imposed" languages like Swahili, English, Thai, etc are better for trade and science, etc. I wonder if anyone has tried to study this.
      I would assume that any language could develop to handle any aspect of human life, but how have languages been used? The relationship between language and culture is very highly complex and subjective. I do not see any easy answers to many of the questions it presents.

    14. Re:bi -lingual ?? by jcr · · Score: 1

      English has rather more languages in the mix than that...

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    15. Re:bi -lingual ?? by kfg · · Score: 1

      English has just about every language outside of New Guinea in it, and in New Guinea that rule is void.

      KFG

    16. Re:bi -lingual ?? by aricept · · Score: 1

      My high school French teacher raised his child speaking two different languages, and taught him another when he was older. The mother speaks Arabic natively, and speaks only to the child in Arabic. The father speaks only in English to him. Eventually, he taught him French also. He also has the benefit of going to a French Immersion school in south Louisiana, where the majority of classes are taught in French.

    17. Re:bi -lingual ?? by Hatta · · Score: 1

      She speaks German, English, French, Spanish, Italian, and Russian roughly equally well, i.e. fluently.... She feels that there is no one language in which she can express herself completely.

      So? I'm a monoglot and I have the same problem.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    18. Re:bi -lingual ?? by qmVSE*w!7e,QF(, · · Score: 1

      She says that she feels to have no first language in which whe is completely competent and "home" . . .
       
      As somewhat of a stickler when it comes to English usage and grammar, I'm of the opinion that hardly anyone is "completely competent" when it comes to English.

        Questioned on the language she thinks in, she says that it depends on the language in which she first encountered a given topic or spent a lot of time to think about it.
       
      I have a friend who moved to the U.S. for college after growing up in Sweden. He reported that, after living in the U.S. for a few years, he now thinks in English most of the time... and even dreams in English about half of the time.

    19. Re:bi -lingual ?? by cp.tar · · Score: 1

      My grandfather's sister is Slovenian (OK, so is my grandfather, but that's beside the point now).
      Her mother was Croatian and a maths teacher.
      That is why she learned addition and substraction in Croatian.
      However, from reasons I've forgotten (WW2?), she spent her second year of schooling in France, so she learned multiplication/division in French.

      So now she mainly speaks her native Slovenian (more or less native; she's bilingual for all practical purposes), but adds up numbers in Croatian and multiplies them in French.

      I know that although I'm quite proficient in English (and a number of other languages), I'll never learn maths in another language. I can comprehend maths in another language, but even when I'm reading a text in English, number processing is done on an almost-above-linguistic level - and the linguistic part is in Croatian.
      Any non-Croatian number processing I have to do consciously.

      --
      Ignore this signature. By order.
    20. Re:bi -lingual ?? by Knuckles · · Score: 1

      He reported that, after living in the U.S. for a few years, he now thinks in English most of the time... and even dreams in English about half of the time

      Originally my loud thoughts were in English only when I thought about computer stuff, but it spreads. I'm living in Germany, but interact maybe 50% in English.

      --
      "When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
    21. Re:bi -lingual ?? by Knuckles · · Score: 1
      So? I'm a monoglot and I have the same problem.

      Um, if you read the very next sentence of my post, you'd see
      Now, that might be a subjective feeling that not necessarily goes away if one does not have her "problem". I only speak German (first language) and English, and I surely don't feel completely competent in German, nor can I express myself "completely". One might even argue that if this was even possible, we would not have such a big body of adventurous poetry and prose in mature languages that over course of centuries tried ever new ways to express oneself "completely".
      --
      "When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
    22. Re:bi -lingual ?? by Krach42 · · Score: 1

      This is very interesting. I wonder if an argument could be made that certain languages are more or less suited to certains tasks or subject domains. For example more "native" languages such as Lao, Hmong, Farsi, Oromo, etc may be better for family and community communications and have larger/richer vocabularies for these topics. But "imposed" languages like Swahili, English, Thai, etc are better for trade and science, etc. I wonder if anyone has tried to study this.

      This is a common layperson msiunderstanding. There is nothing about one particular language that makes it more suited for discussion of any one topic than another. What happens is that the brain associates topics with the language with which you spent the most time interacting with that topic.

      For example, I think about most poetic issues in German. The first time I realy studied poetry was in college during a German poetry and lyric course. Because of this, I often have difficulty remembering the word for "alliteration" now, because I keep coming up with the word "Stabreim". Before I studied poetry and lyric in German, I didn't have this problem.

      I hardly think anyone would say that German is better suited for poetry than English is. But since that's what I studied with, that's how my brain likes to process it.

      --

      I am unamerican, and proud of it!
    23. Re:bi -lingual ?? by bobdinkel · · Score: 1
      The one principle we decided on very early was -- Complete Sentences Only! Either a full sentence in English, or a full sentence in French, or in Bulgarian -- no mixing languages. This way, we prevent corrupting the kids' grammar, let alone our own. I've heard stories that Turkish children growing up in Germany who end up speaking and hearing a mishmash of the two languages end up being fluent in neither -- and could be said to have no native language of their own.


      First of all, I think it's awesome that you're taking such care to ensure that your children grow up to be multi-lingual. So often parents that speak a minority language don't pass that language on to their children. About not mixing languages...

      I think you're being overly cautious. The situation with the Turkish in Germany is markedly different from your own. The Turkish children in Germany constitute a speech community of their own. The Turkish/Gerrman mishmash has become a language in its own right. Your children will not have a speech community to reinforce and support this mixture. You clearly won't being doing your kids a disservice, but I wouldn't get too stressed about it.

      --
      A publicly traded company exists solely to make profits for shareholders.
    24. Re:bi -lingual ?? by greginnj · · Score: 1

      Thanks to you and the others who have responded on this, reassuring me that mixing languages isn't as risky! But, hey, I'm a neurotic geek, coming up with new things to worry about is practically a hobby.

      I probably should have added that another reason for the no-mixing rule was to help my wife and I keep up our French. Living in the US, it would be very easy to let English words start slipping in, first occasionally, then regularly. While our English might remain correct, the French could get seriously degraded over time -- it might be hard to speak 'pure' French when I needed to.

      More curiously, I've occasionally found myself almost using a French word in English conversation at work -- and I'm a native speaker of English. So I've even felt this sort of language-drift pressure _away_ from my native language.

      --
      Read the best of all of Slash: seenonslash.com
    25. Re:bi -lingual ?? by bobdinkel · · Score: 1
      But, hey, I'm a neurotic geek, coming up with new things to worry about is practically a hobby.

      Oh lordy. I know where you're coming from.

      More curiously, I've occasionally found myself almost using a French word in English conversation at work -- and I'm a native speaker of English. So I've even felt this sort of language-drift pressure _away_ from my native language.

      My wife is a bilingual (German/English) and I'm a native English speaker that can speak German. We occasionally drift in and out of each language depending on what we're talking about and where we are. I, too, have tossed in a German word or two at work. People look at me funny, but they usually know what happened. What's really unfortunate is when I translate a German idiom that just doesn't sound right in English. For example, there is a German expression for "going to great lengths to be accommodating" or "being excessively accommodating". So to say I'm not going to bend over backwards to help someone, I would say "I'm not going to tear my ass open to help him." Needless to say, this is greeted with curiousity by my coworkers.

      --
      A publicly traded company exists solely to make profits for shareholders.
    26. Re:bi -lingual ?? by wesw02 · · Score: 1

      My roommate at WSU, is actually a graduate student majoring in Linguistics, and I discussed the issue about being bi-lingual natively with him. From what he has told me, a colleague of his once worked as an interpreter for the U.N. and she speaks multiply languages natively. However she does have trouble occasionally with mixing up the syntax's between the two languages, and she blames that on the fact that she spoke mostly English as child around her friends.

    27. Re:bi -lingual ?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      dreams in English about half of the time

      Would this be an interesting research subject: where there are people who sometimes dream in one language, sometimes another, are there any correlations between characteristics of the dream and the language? Some obvious example are the period of ones life one is dreaming about (I always dream in English when I am young in the dream but occasionally in other languages if older); location; other people in the dream; events taking place.

      It is a cliche that much can be learned from analysis of dreams, but I wonder how many potential avenues of research have still been overlooked.

    28. Re:bi -lingual ?? by ChristW · · Score: 1

      Reminds me of a story my gf told me once...

      A friend of hers moved to Germany with her parents (from The Netherlands). To each other (and other Dutch people), they spoke Dutch. To other visitors, usually german ones, they spoke German.

      Once, when the doorbell rang, she switched languages in the middle of the sentence! A nice 'Pavlovian' reaction...

      --
      09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
    29. Re:bi -lingual ?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is a common layperson msiunderstanding. There is nothing about one particular language that makes it more suited for discussion of any one topic than another. What happens is that the brain associates topics with the language with which you spent the most time interacting with that topic.

      Surely this is what the whole article is about. Speakers of some languages are measurably better than others at telling the difference between two different shades of blue-green. Admittedly this is a rather abstract task, but the principle is the same.

    30. Re:bi -lingual ?? by Krach42 · · Score: 1

      Surely this is what the whole article is about. Speakers of some languages are measurably better than others at telling the difference between two different shades of blue-green. Admittedly this is a rather abstract task, but the principle is the same.

      No, this article is concerned with that people tell the difference between two different shades of blue/green *faster* if their language makes such a distinction, and it is in their left field of view. There was no difference in performance on the right field of view.

      This still means that no language is better apt at discussing the differences between blue and green. In English you say "blue like the ocean, and green like grass." In Japanese you say, "aoi like the ocean, and aoi like grass." (if you speak Japanese, I know they have picked up "guri~n" now, but at on point this was true.)

      They can still understand the difference in color, they just don't name the difference in color. If you want some fun, Russian has a word for a color that English does not have as a basic color. Note, this distinction must be made... as English has a nearly infinite number of names for variations in color. A basic color is one of the colors in the set where one can't tell you that it's just a ___-y variation on the color ___. In English orange is a basic color, as we think of orange as being "just orange" not "a yellowy red" or a "redish yellow". Meanwhile peach is not a basic color, as we think of peach as just a variation of basic colors.

      For fun, figure out what this color is, and then ask yourself if we should be speaking about colors in Russian or English, because it has more basic colors than English.

      --

      I am unamerican, and proud of it!
  3. Words do affect our reality... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    ...on the right

    Based on last nights SOTU speech, let's hope there's an exception to that rule.

    1. Re:Words do affect our reality... by GaepysPike · · Score: 1

      Only the third post to the article, and you've already tried to take a potentially interesting discussion from the realm of science to that of trolling. Pat yourself on the back for me.

      --
      4 out of 3 people have trouble with fractions
  4. I always liked the reverse Whorf hypothesis.. by jcr · · Score: 4, Funny

    I'm convinced that the Eskimos settled in the Arctic, because they had so many different words for "snow".

    -jcr

    --
    The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    1. Re:I always liked the reverse Whorf hypothesis.. by to_kallon · · Score: 1

      actually the eskimo language doesn't have more words for snow than any other. they have words for things like blizzard, flurry, drift, etc just the same as we do. this misconception stemmed from partially a misunderstanding early on between their language and english but mostly it was propegated because people thought it was funny, which admittedly it would be were it true.

      --


      The only way to get rid of a temptation is to yield to it.
      -Oscar Wilde
    2. Re:I always liked the reverse Whorf hypothesis.. by mopslik · · Score: 4, Informative

      Of course, some of us have heard that this "large number of words for snow" story is somewhat misleading.

    3. Re:I always liked the reverse Whorf hypothesis.. by h4rm0ny · · Score: 1


      The Eskimo do have 93 different words for snow.

      It's just that all but four of them are unprintable.

      --

      Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
    4. Re:I always liked the reverse Whorf hypothesis.. by CatsupBoy · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I dont buy it, I only know one word for snow, but my reaction time is lightning fast when recognizing the yellow kind.

    5. Re:I always liked the reverse Whorf hypothesis.. by yoprst · · Score: 1

      I've heard from one linguist that there's one-to-one mapping for every Eskimo word for snow and corresponding word in Russian language, except for the difference between falling and lying snow. Russian snow vocabulary depends on latitude, the closer you are to North Pole, the more types of snow you are exposed to (snow behaves somewhat differently depending on the temperature), the more words you know.

    6. Re:I always liked the reverse Whorf hypothesis.. by Knuckles · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the link.

      Interestingly, the article does not debunk the basic idea of the story, only the representation. While the article says these languages do not really have more roots for "snow" than english, it also says that given the complex suffix structure, you can build unlimited versions of the same root - for all roots, not just snow-related. And not only nouns.

      What it doesn't say is how many of these versions were in use when the Eskimos lived traditional lives in great numbers, but I suspect a lot. More than versions for sand-related stuff at least :)

      IANAL (Linguist), but I'm pretty convinced that language does inform your thinking and perception.
      The Eskimo kid would learn early-on that snow has different forms, and that life depended on knowing how to behave in their vicinity. The fact that those types of snow probably were adressed by a multitude of recursive suffixes to a root noun can only have some effect on a learning brain.
      Why should a brain under these conditions develop the same patterns as the brain of a kid that lives with guys that call everything "the white stuff"?

      I remember having read about a study that found that community of people from a certain area in Africa, who had a long-standing history of cattle breeding and trading, had a whole lot of (92?) "words" for brown. Quoted because I'm sure that was another misrepresentation. African languages are, like those of the Eskimo-group, quite often are more complicated than the average journalist imagines.
      Anyway, these people were reported to also be able to dinstinguish far many more differences of brown shades than Europeans in non-verbal tests (IIRC - might also be that the control group was non-cattle farming people in the same area.) I don't know if they tested for other colors too (green comes to mind).

      Of course, if you see stuff, you might develop the wish to express it and make up words for it, just as you start to look out for stuff when you learn that there are words for it.
      As always *sigh* it's probably a complex interdependence, with neither language directing perception nor the other way round, but both developing together.

      --
      "When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
    7. Re:I always liked the reverse Whorf hypothesis.. by mebollocks · · Score: 1

      coming from the ireland where we have Thirty-one words for seaweed, I don't find it difficult to believe that Eskimos would havy many for snow.

    8. Re:I always liked the reverse Whorf hypothesis.. by AndroidCat · · Score: 1
      the closer you are to North Pole, the more types of snow you are exposed to (snow behaves somewhat differently depending on the temperature), the more words you know.

      Unfortunately, you can't use most of those words without being vulgar. Oh look, it's started to ####### ####### frizzle again!

      --
      One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
    9. Re:I always liked the reverse Whorf hypothesis.. by Krach42 · · Score: 1

      IANAL (Linguist), but I'm pretty convinced that language does inform your thinking and perception.

      Most non-linguists are pretty convinced of the same. After enough education to get over common sense, most linguists change their mind. Just like physicists and the idea that if you hit a large 50 lbs block with a 1 lb block that the 50 lbs block won't move. Common sense says it won't, but physics tells us that's BS.

      The Eskimo kid would learn early-on that snow has different forms, and that life depended on knowing how to behave in their vicinity. The fact that those types of snow probably were adressed by a multitude of recursive suffixes to a root noun can only have some effect on a learning brain.
      Why should a brain under these conditions develop the same patterns as the brain of a kid that lives with guys that call everything "the white stuff"?


      This is no more relavent nor special than saying the same thing about English speaking children in snowy areas. The construction of these complex words for snow is not all together that different from English composition of sentences.

      So, should we be surprised that Eskimos use words for snow more often? Um... no. Their environment makes that an almost certainty. Is there something special about their language that makes that happen? Nope. Nothing at all. Just the fact that snow is literally all around them.

      Most people have so entwined the notion of "thought" to thinking aloud internally, that they have have difficulty understanding that we think below that level, and then we think of words to either remember, store, or express those thoughts to ourselves or others.

      --

      I am unamerican, and proud of it!
    10. Re:I always liked the reverse Whorf hypothesis.. by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 1

      The Eskimo kid would learn early-on that snow has different forms, and that life depended on knowing how to behave in their vicinity. The fact that those types of snow probably were adressed by a multitude of recursive suffixes to a root noun can only have some effect on a learning brain. Why should a brain under these conditions develop the same patterns as the brain of a kid that lives with guys that call everything "the white stuff"?

      Obviously, a kid who grows up around snow knows more about it than somebody in LA, but what about the kid in vermont? He has just as many ways to describe snow (crunchy, soft, coarse, fine, wet, etc.), it's just structured in a different (equivalent way). A common vocabulary allows easier communication, but that's all.

      I remember having read about a study that found that community of people from a certain area in Africa, who had a long-standing history of cattle breeding and trading, had a whole lot of (92?) "words" for brown. [...] Anyway, these people were reported to also be able to dinstinguish far many more differences of brown shades than Europeans in non-verbal tests (IIRC - might also be that the control group was non-cattle farming people in the same area.)

      Betcha they'd compare about equally to ranchers in the midwest - it's not about language so much as experience. Experience begets language; this is why most computer jargon is english - we (US and UK) got there first, so we made the jargon. I expect to see more Japanese-rooted jargon in fields like AI and robotics due to the work of the Japanese, but I expect that it will have nothing to do with magical properties inherent in Japanese. We just make up jargon as needed.

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    11. Re:I always liked the reverse Whorf hypothesis.. by Knuckles · · Score: 1

      Most non-linguists are pretty convinced of the same. After enough education to get over common sense, most linguists change their mind

      Aren't you exaggerating there?

      This is no more relavent nor special than saying the same thing about English speaking children in snowy areas. The construction of these complex words for snow is not all together that different from English composition of sentences.

      Right, but off my point. Which was, I think, that people who have to deal with something all the time will develop both a language to discuss the nuances of the subject matter and a perception that allows to notice them. Yes it's obvious, but how the 2 interact is still interesting stuff.

      --
      "When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
    12. Re:I always liked the reverse Whorf hypothesis.. by Knuckles · · Score: 1

      I don't disagree with you at all and I don't know why 2 guys read the "magicall properties" thing into my post. I would have thought I managed to make clear that that's not what I meant. Oh well.

      Experience begets language

      It's just that I believe that language also feeds back into experience. People with a clue tell me I'm wrong, but I'm stubborn.

      --
      "When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
    13. Re:I always liked the reverse Whorf hypothesis.. by Drakai · · Score: 1

      Word Lust!! Hah!

      I love it. What I find most amusing about that article is that a obviously intelligent person would bork a simple answer. I mean, don't give me that crap about roots, infinite permutations and what not. We are talking common usage here. We are talking about a set of words used so frequently that they are no longer considered 'built' so much as spoken. New roots more or less. And as to her answer, either you know or you don't. She was put on the spot, so she said 150? Well, that is either accurate or not and her credibilty on the matter is tied wholly to it whether she likes it or not.

      Either they have a single word for wet snow or they just say 'wet snow' like the rest of the world. It's not a difficult question and the notion that they join words together just means they don't waste time or space with 'spaces' like most folks. Any other answer is deliberately misleading. An intelligent audience will see the difference.

      The fundamental question being asked is not how many words do these people use for snow. The fundamental question being asked is if my people spent generations fundamentally tied to 'snow' would we eventually become more intimately acquainted with it such that we gain a deeper understanding of it and distinguish these things using words. Apparently, the short answer is no. It's just snow. But that might cost valuable funding of the research so let's spout some crap about complex word structure which allows many words for snow. Well, imo, that research into complex language structure is valuable in of itself without needing to mislead the reader about the number of words for snow.

      I doubt that made sense...

    14. Re:I always liked the reverse Whorf hypothesis.. by squidfood · · Score: 1
      people who have to deal with something all the time will develop both a language to discuss the nuances of the subject matter and a perception that allows to notice them.

      I grew up in L.A., and (no joke!) I have 18 words for smog.

    15. Re:I always liked the reverse Whorf hypothesis.. by Precipitous · · Score: 1

      I'm convinced that the artic is cold, because eskimos have so many words for snow.

      Time to factor in the settlement of Alaska by Anglophones into global warming.

      (I know subsequent posts point out the fallacy of the premise, but true premises aren't really necessary in erroneous arguments.)

      --
      My motto: "A cat is no trade for integrity."
    16. Re:I always liked the reverse Whorf hypothesis.. by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 1

      It's just that I believe that language also feeds back into experience. People with a clue tell me I'm wrong, but I'm stubborn.

      Language feeds back into experience to the extent that it facilitates further experience and communication.

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    17. Re:I always liked the reverse Whorf hypothesis.. by Knuckles · · Score: 1

      And I'd add it partly determines what you can experience and communicate and how.

      --
      "When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
    18. Re:I always liked the reverse Whorf hypothesis.. by Krach42 · · Score: 1

      Aren't you exaggerating there?

      I'm exaggerating with the use of the word "most"? I'd be exaggerating if I said "all", but seriously, most linguists refute the strong Sapir-Whorf hypothesis outright. There are quite a number of experiments out there that show that we do not think exclusively in language, and thus, the strong Sapir-Whorf hypothesis can be immediately discarded.

      Right, but off my point. Which was, I think, that people who have to deal with something all the time will develop both a language to discuss the nuances of the subject matter and a perception that allows to notice them. Yes it's obvious, but how the 2 interact is still interesting stuff.

      No more than typesetters having a name for every different font. I don't find that particularly spectacular news in and of itself... but somehow the fact that Eskimos have a hojillion different words for "snow" *is* interesting to most people, likely because it suggests a confirmation of many of our common sense notions.

      --

      I am unamerican, and proud of it!
    19. Re:I always liked the reverse Whorf hypothesis.. by Knuckles · · Score: 1

      No more than typesetters having a name for every different font

      Ah, see! I agree completely, but what I'm interested in is kinda how the font names would influence the typesetter's perception of the world, if the font names actually were a quite complete way to express and discuss the world, comparable to language. I.e., if the anology wouldn't suck :)

      I mean, our language gives as good a tool to describe and discuss the world (inner and outer) as we need and/or manage (and much more: we play with it, etc.).
      I don't see how it is such a stretch that this tool's peculiarities influence how we experience the world. Why would my ingrainedness with the rather rigid German system of tenses not let me think about time different from someone who uses languages with completely different systems to express time? (Or none at all ... wouldn't surprise me in the world of language where most things seem to have been tried)

      --
      "When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
    20. Re:I always liked the reverse Whorf hypothesis.. by Krach42 · · Score: 1

      I don't see how it is such a stretch that this tool's peculiarities influence how we experience the world. Why would my ingrainedness with the rather rigid German system of tenses not let me think about time different from someone who uses languages with completely different systems to express time? (Or none at all ... wouldn't surprise me in the world of language where most things seem to have been tried)

      That's the thing, it's not a stretch at all for people to reach this conclusion, and most people do, even linguists before hand.

      The problem with the strong Sapir-Whorf hypothesis is that it requires that all thought be restricted to language. Thus, everything that we think about, would have to be language. Like I said (at least SOMEWHERE attached to this article) there have been a number of experiments that prove that we do not think entirely in pure language. Some of our thoughts are non-linguistic.

      So, it's basically driven that the language we speak are this bottleneck between our non-linguistic thought, and our expression of it, and also our abstract memories (for example, when I remember that I have 17 dollars in my pocket, I don't remember the actual objects being in existence in my pocket, rather I remember the abstract linguistic content that I have 17 dollars in my pocket. YMMV depending on how your memory works here.)

      So, in a way, the language we speak influences the speech we use (which is a tauntology), but it also effects our abstract memories, which would create a feedback loop on abstract topics, but not "real" topics... like what your mother's face looks like. And while sometimes we may fail at being able to express a notion that we're thinking, it doesn't mean that we're incapable of thinking it (which is what the strong Sapir-Whorf hypothesis and 1984 are about.)

      All linguists agree that some effect of language is on how we think, and some effect of how we think is in our language, but the real sticking point is just how much? This paper in the article says it's much closer to the S-W end, than the end that our language doesn't effect our thoughts at all. In truth, it's probably too entwined to tell. In fact, this paper suggests that in fact, the answer depends even upon which side of the brain we're using to perceive the input.

      --

      I am unamerican, and proud of it!
    21. Re:I always liked the reverse Whorf hypothesis.. by 6*7 · · Score: 1

      I always forget what (not) to do with yellow snow, luckily my machine has reminder utils:
      $ xsnow -sc yellow
      Xsnow-1.42, December 14th 2001 by Rick Jansen (rja@euronet.nl)
      WWW: http://www.euronet.nl/~rja/Xsnow/

      Warning: don't eat yellow snow!

    22. Re:I always liked the reverse Whorf hypothesis.. by Knuckles · · Score: 1

      The problem with the strong Sapir-Whorf hypothesis is that it requires that all thought be restricted to language

      I admittedly am interested but ignorant on this whole topic, but why does this follow? I am thinking on a much too high level here, and maybe there is some unavoidable issue in brain and/or language structures, , but why wouldn't my language influence me, even though not everything is language? I'm sure the music that is played in different parts of the world has an influence on the brain's perceptions too. Dunno, seems so obvious :)

      we do not think entirely in pure language. Some of our thoughts are non-linguistic.

      Sure, totally agreed. Is this also disputed? A strange world linguists seem to live in ;) Dunno, seems entirely obvious from simple introspection, and. Many meditation techniques try to get a handle on the neverending stream of voices and make it stop, and if someone had doubts, he simply could practice one or two.
      Btw, I seem to plug this book a lot, but it's worth it: Zen and the Brain. A hard but fascinating read. Being no neurologist, much of the hard science part went over my head, but it's not that bad. Oh, thanks for the train of thought, Zen-Brain Reflections, the sequel will be out shortly :)

      while sometimes we may fail at being able to express a notion that we're thinking, it doesn't mean that we're incapable of thinking it

      On its own that isn't proven that our language doesn't prevent some thoughts from being thought.

      All linguists agree that some effect of language is on how we think, and some effect of how we think is in our language, but the real sticking point is just how much?

      That sentence and the whole last paragraph I can agree with.

      --
      "When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
    23. Re:I always liked the reverse Whorf hypothesis.. by Krach42 · · Score: 1

      I admittedly am interested but ignorant on this whole topic, but why does this follow? I am thinking on a much too high level here, and maybe there is some unavoidable issue in brain and/or language structures, , but why wouldn't my language influence me, even though not everything is language? I'm sure the music that is played in different parts of the world has an influence on the brain's perceptions too. Dunno, seems so obvious :)

      The idea behind the strong Sapir-Whorf hypothesis (more accurately, the common conception of this hypothesis) is that language controls and defines what we can even think about. That people who speak a language that lacks a certain notion or idea are incapable of thinking of that notion or idea until it is given a linguistic construct in their language.

      The best example is 1984, where a form of thought control is exacted through the language. They had the word "free" but only as in beer, never as in speech. Thus the idea of "freedom" wouldn't exist, and people who would speak this ficticious language would be unable to even conceieve that they are missing their "freedom" because they don't have any linguistic construct to represent such an idea.

      Most linguists dismiss this notion entirely, and use evidence that thought is not (at least not entirely) language bound. That people subjected to such a forceful oppression within their language, will naturally resist, and their minds will know of "freedom" even though they have no word for it, and they will either invent a word, or extend the usage of a word, or something in order to represent an idea which does not have a word.

      I found a paper: http://www.aber.ac.uk/media/Students/njp0001.html which gives some information. Of importance is what Sapir and Whorf concluded from a study by Franz Boas in 1911 of the Hopi language. Boas had made the determination that the Hopi language has no concept of time as an objective entity.

      Of note from the article: His idea for proving the linguistic relativity theory was finding a concrete example of how the Hopi's lives were affected by their different linguistic concept of time. He claimed that the way the Hopi rely on preparation, announcing events well in advance, for example, showed a concept of time continuing along instead of being divided up as Western societies do, which matches the linguistic differences. This, according to Whorf at least, shows language determining thought, in other words Strong (or Extreme) Whorfianism.

      The point of interest here is that Whorf never actually met a Native American, let alone a Hopi, and made these inferences from data that were not his own. In fact, the Hopi *do* have a concept of time very similar to ours.

      So, basically, it mostly comes down to, language effects our language and our memory, but not until this study has anyone shown really anything that shows that language effects our perceptions of the actual world itself (which is what Whorf was claiming).

      --

      I am unamerican, and proud of it!
  5. Huhu almost by stonecypher · · Score: 5, Informative

    It's actually called the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis, because it was primarily Edward Sapir's work.

    --
    StoneCypher is Full of BS
    1. Re:Huhu almost by Quirk · · Score: 1
      I've taken the time to hunt through used bookstores to find and read Sapir, Boas and Whorf, along with the Danish (?) English master, Otto Jespersen. I enjoyed reading Whorf the most as his thought processes were wonderfully clear to me, and, accordingly, I was able to form an opinion of his ideas satisfactory for my purposes. Whorf was trained as a Chemical Engineer, perhaps this is why I found his writings clear and informed.

      One of the ideas I formed was the tendency of many languages ( native north american ) to speak in idea clusters as if one part of an idea was inseparable from the others such that perception was more of a splash pattern of large gestalten.

      Western Culture benefited from the ancient Greeks implementing vowels in the written word and tautological reasoning as seen in Euclid's 'The Elements'. It's been suggested that perspective drawing derived from Euclidean geometry enabled the Renaissance and the Industrial Revolution through design drawing. I suspect that the reductionist, deterministic reasoning that drove western Science is supportive of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis.

      --
      "Academicians are more likely to share each other's toothbrush than each other's nomenclature."
      Cohen
    2. Re:Huhu almost by FFON · · Score: 0

      but WHORF is more fun to say, you insensitive clod

      --
      .cig
    3. Re:Huhu almost by caudron · · Score: 1

      Don't you mean the GNU/Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis?

      --
      -Tom
    4. Re:Huhu almost by Knuckles · · Score: 1

      I've taken the time to hunt through used bookstores to find and read Sapir, Boas and Whorf

      Dude, if you don't do it for the atmosphere and leg-work, use Abebooks :)

      --
      "When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
    5. Re:Huhu almost by skwirlmaster · · Score: 1

      Actually it is commonly known as the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis, but is correctly called the Whorf Hypothesis.

      Edward Sapir first became a believer in Linguistic Determinism, and passed this on to his student Benjamin Whorf. Whorf is the one who took the idea of Linguistic Determinism and fleshed it by creating the Whorf Hypothesis. Linguistic Determinism means that language effects our thoughts. Whorf went one step further and said that it impossible for ppl to think outside the confines of their native language.

      --
      My inner self is ineffable, so don't eff with me.
  6. Oh please oh please oh please oh please... by Cranky+Weasel · · Score: 4, Funny

    ...may the barrage of bad Star Trek jokes be peppered with the occasional enlightening, thoughtful tidbit...

    1. Re:Oh please oh please oh please oh please... by digitaldc · · Score: 1

      I sure hope you don't Klingon to false hope.

      That would only alienate your readers and therefore is highly illogical.

      --
      He who knows best knows how little he knows. - Thomas Jefferson
    2. Re:Oh please oh please oh please oh please... by jcr · · Score: 1

      Does the language of Slashdot allow such a possibility?

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    3. Re:Oh please oh please oh please oh please... by billstewart · · Score: 1

      Sure - Those postings just get marked "OffTopic" or "Troll", so you never actuall see any of them, but they're really around, right next to the fnords...

      --

      Bill Stewart
      New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
    4. Re:Oh please oh please oh please oh please... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So more posts unlike your own, you mean.

  7. The Whorf hypothisis? by Cro+Magnon · · Score: 3, Funny

    Sorry, but a Klingon warrior knows as much about language as a pointy-eared Vulcan does about child care.

    --
    Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
  8. Here goes by quokkapox · · Score: 1
    Of course it's true that learning another language influences the way we think. That's why we shouldn't be obviating the need for interpersonal, social interaction by providing universal language translation capabilities via cheap technology.

    Learning even some snippets of another language while trying to communicate with someone else (especially in a harmless context such as a game) would make us all smarter. Howzat?

    --
    it's a blue bright blue Saturday hey hey
    1. Re:Here goes by PastAustin · · Score: 1
      Learning even some snippets of another language while trying to communicate with someone else (especially in a harmless context such as a game) would make us all smarter. Howzat?


      This holds true for many things for example brushing your teeth with a different hand or using the TV remote with a different hand can create new synaptic connections! I read in a PopSci that driving a different way to work every day (which I do every day - even if it's only kind of different) or brushing your hair with a different hand and different brush can make you comprehend complex problems better. Food for thought...
      --
      Firefox 2.0 - Spell Rightly.
  9. There was a similar study. by OneBigWord · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I remember a similar study where a culture with only four words for colors could still distinguish different 'English' colors. It doesn't seem too surprising that it may take them a little longer.

    1. Re:There was a similar study. by lawpoop · · Score: 5, Interesting
      The human eye can distinguish millions of colors. This is true regardless of color names in a language.

      You might be thinking of _Basic Color Terms_, or one of the studies used to counter it. _Basic Color Terms_ was an interesting anthropological and historical theory. Brent Berlin and Paul Kay looked at anthropological data and classical literature and came up with the theory that there are only 11 basic color categories in language. So for instance, if you hear that a tribe has only 6 different color words, they could tell you exactly what they are.

      There are a lot of studies that either supported or offered evidence against this theory. It's pretty interesting, IMHO.

      FWIW, here are the colors:
      1. Dark (or black, if you have 3 or more colors)
      2. Light (or white, if you have more than 3 colors)
      3. Red
      4. Yellow or Green (pick one)
      5. Yellow or Green (pick whichever you didn't pick above)
      6. Blue
      7. brown
      8. purple
      9. pink
      10. orange
      11. gray


      The thing about their theory is that you have the colors in this order. So if your tribe has two color words, they are dark and light. If you have 4 words, they are black, white, red, and either yellow or green.

      Berlin and Kay went into depth describing exactly what counted as a color. For instance, a descriptive word that applies solely to an object or material, such as copper, was discluded ( I think there as usage from Homer that Berlin and Kay discluded ). There was an ethnography where an anthropolgist tried to use a descriptive term for the color of a green plant to describe a green dress. The people he was with only had black, white and red; they held that the term he was using could only be applied to that particular plant. The anthropologist thought it was a general term for green, but no, it only applied to a particular plant species, not any plant, nor any other green thing.
      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
    2. Re:There was a similar study. by Valdrax · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I already know of two languages that doesn't follow this order -- Japanese and the language mentioned in the article, Tarahumara. Much like Tarahumara, Japanese has a word that covers both blue and green (aoi). However, Japanese also has a word that covers just green (midori).

      However, Japanese has had words for brown, purple, and several different words for grey but not distinct words for orange and pink (I'm ignoring X-iro words which mean "color of X" like momoiro for the color of peaches or oranjiiro for the color of oranges). It is interesting though that (gosai) means "the five colors" -- black, white, red, yellow, and green/blue.

      It is interesting to note that in my limited experience is seems that the more civilized and thus artistic a culture becomes, the more words for colors they invent or co-opt.

      --
      If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
    3. Re:There was a similar study. by Eric+S.+Smith · · Score: 1
      ...seems that the more civilized and thus artistic a culture becomes, the more words for colors they invent or co-opt.

      Thus we can see that interior designers are clearly the most civilized and artistic culture in the world, having at last count no fewer than 174 different words for "off-white".

    4. Re:There was a similar study. by lawpoop · · Score: 1

      That's really interesting. In the back of the book, they go over their different source languages. I don't remember if they said anything about Japanese.

      One interesting discussion was Russian -- it clearly has two seperate words for blue. They hypothesized that dark blue (or light blue) might be the "12 word".

      I've been trying to figure out why there would be this order for words. The first few are easy to make up a reason for -- black and white, light and dark, used for contrasting. Red is a common indicator that plants use for ripe fruit. I spent a field study in the jungle one summer, and any red berries would jump out in the midst of the sea of green and brown. OK, so red is an obvious standout color in the woods. Then, you can use yellow/green to contrast with other plants, plants and berries, unripe fruit, etc.

      After that it gets harder. I guess I can explain the above order of colors because you might need to contrast things in the environment. However, blue, while it is the color of the sky, doesn't need to be contrasted by color. You can just say "sky" to contrast it from anything on Earth. The rest of the colors are a total mystery to me. Obviously, more trade would expose you to more colors, but as to *why* it would follow that particular order... I don't know. Maybe that part of the theory is bunk ;)

      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
    5. Re:There was a similar study. by tetromino · · Score: 1

      Russian doesn't seem to fit this hypothesis. There are words for black, white, red, yellow, green. There are two fundamentally distinct words for blue (roughly, "light blue" and "dark blue" -- to a Russian-speaker, the two colors are fundamentally different, just like green and blue are fundamentally different to an English-speaker). There is a word for brown, a word for orange, and a word for gray. However, the words for "purple" and "pink" (fioletovyj and rozovyj) are only recent borrowings from French -- there are no native roots to describe those basic colors.

    6. Re:There was a similar study. by lawpoop · · Score: 1

      In the back of the book, Berlin and Kay talk extensively about Russian's two words for blue. It's been a while since I read it, so I don't remember whether they talk about pink and purple.

      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
    7. Re:There was a similar study. by kiracatgirl · · Score: 1

      English has two "blue" colours as well - what we call blue, and indigo.

    8. Re:There was a similar study. by tetromino · · Score: 1

      English has two "blue" colours as well - what we call blue, and indigo.

      Sort of, but no. You are probably referring to Isaac Newton's decomposition of the rainbow (ROYGBIV). Unfortunately, in common usage, "indigo" is associated with "shade of blue". By contrast, "green" is not "shade of blue", and neither is "blue" a "shade of green", so I would call "blue" and "green" linguistically fundamental in English. Now, if you still think that Mr. Newton's labels hold absolute authority over the minds of English speakers, consider, for instance, computer graphics. Computer "blue" (#0000FF) is what Newton called "indigo". What Newton called "blue" (#00FFFF) computer software calls "cyan". In fact, most non-programmers, non-elementary-schoolkids would label the entire range #0000FF, #00FFFF, #000AE0, etc. as "various shades of blue".

      To put it another way: "blue" is the sort of word everyone learns before age 5. "Indigo" (along with "azure", "lilac", "periwinkle", and the like) is mostly reserved for artists and interior designers.

    9. Re:There was a similar study. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Indigo" (along with "azure", "lilac", "periwinkle", and the like) is mostly reserved for artists and interior designers.

      And the homosexuals. Mustn't forget them, those stylish rascals.

    10. Re:There was a similar study. by SparksMcGee · · Score: 1
      I'm familiar with the assertion of 11 basic (non-synthetic) color categories, English being comparatively unique inasmuch as it utilizes all of them, and the fascinating generalization that human languages tend to follow this order. As another poster pointed out, however, with the example of the green/blue (comparatively rare, but extant) grouping instead of yellow/blue, these are only useful generalizations, and, as with almost all such linguistic generalizations, there are exceptions (given the sheer number of languages available to humans, this is hardly suprising).

      What I do wonder, however, is how to handle color words that are arguably nonprimary (in terms of frequency) but nevertheless in common parlance and not synthesized from objects that share their color. The word "Teal" in particular comes to mind--it applies uniquely to a color, and is used when it would be more accurate than saying just "blue" or "green" and avoids the construction blue-green or green-blue (which I believe disqualify a color-term from being basic). After all, if "pink" which is easily described as a mixture of white and red, is primary, why not a mix of green and blue?

      Admittedly, no other examples come immediately to mind--some other words unique to colors like "mauve" and "chartreuse" arguably describe shades as opposed to ranges, unlike the basic color terms, and are presumably used much less frequently. But what criterion excludes "teal" or similiar words from being basic color categories?

    11. Re:There was a similar study. by Kirth+Gersen · · Score: 1

      I think I'm the first person to make this point: English speakers do not routinely distinguish between "true" red, green and blue -- ie the color which contains only light from the red fraction of the spectrum, etc -- and *painter's* red, green and blue, which are more accurately orange, green-cyan and blue-cyan.

      A painter needs paints which reflect a mix of colors because if you were to try to mix paints which were truly monochromatic it would result in black.

      I don't know if other languages have this issue. But as I recall both Thais and Cambodians refer to cyan as "blue" when they speak English.

  10. Oh no... by the_demiurge · · Score: 3, Funny

    If language does have such a profound effect on our thought processes, does this mean the Time Cube guy is right, and "Teachers are hired evil word pedants who enslave childish minds to a lifetime stupidity."?

    Are we really "educated as a stupid android slave to the evil Word Animal Singularity Brotherhood"?

    I'm scared. :-(

    1. Re:Oh no... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Time Cube guy isn't right. He's not even wrong. He's meaningless.

    2. Re:Oh no... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      The parent was a joke.

      Did you realize that?

      I'm just curious, because some people seem unable to recognize what most other people recognize as obvious humor (even if stupid humor), and I'm curious if that's what happened here. I can't think of any other reason that you'd make the response you did.

    3. Re:Oh no... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I got it - it's empty and meaningless that it's meaningless.

  11. Something even more not-funny by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is this why "right-wingers" are so adamant? Their brains are affected by their propaganda?

    1. Re:Something even more not-funny by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Adam Ant was quite liberal, if his parody of the conservatives in "Goody Two Shoes" was any indication.

  12. But what. . . by smooth+wombat · · Score: 4, Funny

    if I pass the dutchie on the left-hand side? What then?

    --
    We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
    1. Re:But what. . . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      if I pass the dutchie on the left-hand side? What then?
      Clearly, you'd need to go down to Electric Avenue, and then you'd take it higher.

    2. Re:But what. . . by legalize.ganja.now. · · Score: 1

      it a go bun!

  13. Nonlingual? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Some people know only one language, yet they can't even speak that one properly.

  14. implications by rodentia · · Score: 2, Interesting


    This is a really outstanding result and leads to some interesting new territory. It would seem that there may well be two (or more?) discrete cognitive processes mediating reality for mind. Another blow to the idea of a comprehensive, unitary consciousness and the corresponding myth of a radical alterity labelled unconscious.

    --
    illegitimii non ingravare
    1. Re:implications by lawpoop · · Score: 1

      Do you think there is some part of the brain/mind that believes that it *is* a unitary consciousness? I mean, even thought I understand that there are different parts of my body and consciousness that do things that I'm unaware of, I still *feel* like a single, global consciousness.

      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
    2. Re:implications by bigpat · · Score: 1

      This is a really outstanding result and leads to some interesting new territory. It would seem that there may well be two (or more?) discrete cognitive processes mediating reality for mind. Another blow to the idea of a comprehensive, unitary consciousness and the corresponding myth of a radical alterity labelled unconscious.

      What?! Next you are going to say something about there being no tooth fairy or easter bunny? Thanks, but no thanks.

    3. Re:implications by Drakai · · Score: 1

      In contemplating this notion, especially trying to guess the meanings of teh bigger words, I had a little discussion in my head. It was a huddle of sorts where my brains seemed to duck under teh hood and say to itself "what we got for this?" Interestingly the answer came back inconclusive. But it claimed that if there were more than one intellignece they all generally had my best interests at heart so I shouldn't worry about it too much.

    4. Re:implications by cp.tar · · Score: 1

      Stanislaw Lem, "Peace on Earth".

      A nice SF about a man whose brain hemispheres apparently fight each other.

      --
      Ignore this signature. By order.
  15. Childhood learning... by hhr · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I wonder if this is like native asians and the letters 'r' and 'l'-- if you don't learn the difference when you are young then your brain will have problems thinking that way.

    If so, it would mean that it's not the language that causes you to think differently, but a seperate skill that you also use to speak the language. In this case of the Tarahumara speakers, it's distinquishing green and blue. They never needed to do so, so now they have problems when tested for it.

    1. Re:Childhood learning... by h4rm0ny · · Score: 1


      Or like the rising and falling tones in Chinese. It's quite odd as a native English speaker to start trying to integrate pitch to what constitutes a word.

      --

      Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
    2. Re:Childhood learning... by mr_zonules · · Score: 1

      My brother at college taught his Japanese roommate how to say "Real weird rear wheel drive" 3 times fast without much of an accent or lisp. Normally his "engrish" is exactly that. I guess it can be done!!! -Z

    3. Re:Childhood learning... by merlin_jim · · Score: 1

      I don't know about Chinese but Japanese is very similar - meaning is conveyed by pitch changes that most occidental speakers are unfamiliar with - many Japanese people say that American's trying to speak Japanese generally sound like they're singing - I'm guess because our pitch follows rhythmic patterns as opposed to semantic patterns, which of course singing in any language would have to do...

      --
      I am disrespectful to dirt! Can you see that I am serious?!
    4. Re:Childhood learning... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      only a score of 1!? This comment is the first intelligent real world application written in language that doesn't have to be googled. is it off topic?

    5. Re:Childhood learning... by Krach42 · · Score: 1

      I wonder if this is like native asians and the letters 'r' and 'l'-- if you don't learn the difference when you are young then your brain will have problems thinking that way.

      This is a nature of phonemic distinction. Few people retain the ability to adapt to new phonemics after a certain age (somewhere around puberty). The is the cause of all accents, not just asians (specifically Japanese) and the letters 'r' and 'l'.

      They learned a language with a phomene that is different from both 'r' and 'l' as they are pronounced in English, and after their critical age, they lose the ability to adapt, and pick up being able to hear/produce this difference, and they compensate during their language aquisition to be able to identify words where 'r' and 'l' make a critical difference in meaning using context and other cues.

      --

      I am unamerican, and proud of it!
    6. Re:Childhood learning... by Krach42 · · Score: 1

      I met a German during my High School years, who was a foreign exchange student. Since German lacks dental fricatives ("th") he pronounced them either as /s/, /z/, /t/, or /d/ depending on the sound properties surrounding it.

      One day, I questioned him about it. I asked him, if he could pronounce the sounds or not, and he did, perfectly. The problem was, that when he went to actually speak English at a normal pace, his mind just ignored the sound, and produced the accent.

      I've also spoken with some people and had them reproduce the vowel sound that should be in my last name (Foesch, if you speak German it's the ö (o-umlaut) noise). It doesn't exist in English, but people given enough time can "work it out". The problem is that they forget it, or just straight up replace it in their normal speech.

      --

      I am unamerican, and proud of it!
    7. Re:Childhood learning... by Valdrax · · Score: 1

      It's not that bad -- it just takes a lot more conscious work when you get older to stop it. My Japanese professors in college were very good a pronouncing the difference. The big place where one of them failed to sound native was the pitch and rhythm of speaking in English, but they all had "L" & "R" down cold.

      In my experience, the truly difficult thing to master about pronunciation is pitch and rhythm (which is mostly in the vowels), especially if you're trying to learn a tonal language like Mandarin when you didn't grow up with it. Don't get me wrong -- getting your throat and tongue to make sounds it doesn't naturally make in day to day speech is hard, but thinking in those sounds is really easy compared to changing the "music" of your speech.

      I might one day learn Arabic with its unique phonemes (and sound stupid but understandable), but I'll never be able to learn Chinese. I've had friends in college try to teach me a little here and there, but I just can't pick up on the tonal differences at all (and I'm not tone deaf). I also can't pronounce the 4th tone.

      --
      If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
    8. Re:Childhood learning... by Geoffreyerffoeg · · Score: 1

      I wonder if this is like native asians and the letters 'r' and 'l'-- if you don't learn the difference when you are young then your brain will have problems thinking that way.

      I can attest to that. My parents speak an Indic language that has about 2 "l"s and 3 "r"s, as well as hard and soft consonants and long and short vowels. I can never tell which one they're using, and I often confuse words that they use because the two words in the minimal pair (two words differing by one sound used to demonstrate that a language considers two sounds to be different) sound the same to my American English-trained ear.

      (It's a long story why I didn't learn their language. I used to know it, but I had to replace it with English when I entered school.)

    9. Re:Childhood learning... by Expert+Determination · · Score: 1

      Chinese is much more extreme than Japanese in this resepct. Cantonese, for example, has seven different tones. Without the tones Chinese is insanely full of homonyms.

      --
      "The White House is not an intelligence-gathering agency," -- Scott McClellan, Whitehouse spokesman.
    10. Re:Childhood learning... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It has nothing to do with Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis. Pronunciation is not perception. One of the best examples of Sapir-Whorf hypothesis are cultures which do not use time indicators in their language, and therefore their perception of time is different than ours.

  16. The image file by p3d0 · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    I wonder why the offer the sample image as a 2MB JPG file instead of a 10KB PNG (or a 2KB SVG!).

    --
    Patrick Doyle
    I mod down every jackass who puts his moderation policy in his sig. Oh, wait a sec....
    1. Re:The image file by kfg · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Because their language set includes JPG, but does not include PNG or SVG.

      KFG

  17. Of course! by glindsey · · Score: 0, Troll

    Everybody knows that the Right only see things in black and white!

    (Funny, or Troll? What's it going to be? YOU DECIDE!)

    1. Re:Of course! by GaepysPike · · Score: 1

      Okay- troll.

      --
      4 out of 3 people have trouble with fractions
    2. Re:Of course! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      well...a funny thing just happened. if you're the "left" you just saw "the right" in black and white.

      this is the whole problem and why politics is a futile black hole for human effort. nobody sees the error in themselves, only in the other.

      and then they want to march or organize or go to war against something outside themselves that exists first inside.

      please mod me offtopic! and don't believe in facile left-right classifications or anything in politics for that matter.

  18. Language affects to intelligence? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Thanks, I'll remember to teach my kid real English and keep him away from perception-messing American.

  19. The Whorf hypothesis... by DoofusOfDeath · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Formally stated, it's, "Yes, you CAN be half-Klingon and still have an embarassingly sensitive demeanor."

    1. Re:The Whorf hypothesis... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hmm... Which half-Klingon are you talking about?

      I only know of K'Ehelyr and B'Elanna Torres, and I wouldn't call either of them "embarassingly sensitive." Worf maybe is, but he's all Klingon...

  20. Conclusions Sound? by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The researchers found that participants responded more quickly when the color of the odd-man-out had a different name than the color of the other squares -- as if the linguistic difference had heightened the perceptual difference -- but this only occurred if the odd-man-out was in the right half of the visual field, and not when it was in the left half. This was the predicted pattern.

    The conclusions seem sound. The experiment even proved its aim that only the left half of the brain shows a difference. As the article mentions, the linguistic distinction seems to heighten the left hemisphere's ability to distinguish the actual color distinction. But does this show a fundamental difference in thought processes, or simply a type of learned response.

    For example, imagine an experiment whereby you walk down the street wearing a T-shirt with a CCCP logo on it. Most people born after say, 1980 might not even bat an eyelid. Someone who grew up amid the 50's red scare, practicing taking shelter under their school desk, might suddenly find their eye transfixed on the logo, their heart rate increasing, and a sudden urge to duck beneath the nearest school desk.

    So does something similar occur when you've been taught your whole life that blue and green are different colors, verses say, being told that green was just a kind of yellowy blue?

    --
    May the Maths Be with you!
    1. Re:Conclusions Sound? by rk2z · · Score: 1

      My thoughts exactly. Is it language or the fact the culture/ environment effects how you think about things? or are the two completely intertwined?

      --
      This is a sig, there are many like it, but this is mine.
    2. Re:Conclusions Sound? by Drakai · · Score: 1

      I thought the conclusion was that the left half of your brain would duck under the desk and the right half would be wondering what the big deal was?

    3. Re:Conclusions Sound? by Geoffreyerffoeg · · Score: 1

      Read your quote. but this only occurred if the odd-man-out was in the right half of the visual field, and not when it was in the left half.

      What they're saying is that if you see the guy with the USSR t-shirt out of the corner of your right eye, your response is training-dependent, but if you see him out of the corner of your left eye, your response is universal.

      Naturally, the USSR t-shirt is a strained example. Sapir-Whorf says that people's thought processes are affected by how they can verbalize internally and thus by the language they use internally. People taught that blue and green were the same could differentiate blue and green just as well as everyone else if it was in their left eye.

    4. Re:Conclusions Sound? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      if it was in their left eye

      that should be left visual field not left eye. See here for why this is so. The short version is that a single eye is connected to both hemispheres of the brain. But anything viewed to the left of center of vision will be sent only to the right hemisphere and anything viewed to the right of center will be sent to the left hemisphere.

    5. Re:Conclusions Sound? by neonsignal · · Score: 1

      One could ask if there is a difference between 'thought process' and 'learned response'... Guess it depends on your model of human cognition. Still, I think you make a valid point.

      The Sapir-Whorf hypothesis is a suggestion that language categories determine perception; as you point out for this experiment, it is hard to disentangle cultural context and language in any test of this hypothesis.

      However, my feeling is that people overreact to the hypothesis. Indeed, there are obvious areas where language does not affect perception (for example, solving a Rubik's cube is an analytical process, but does not necessarily involve language at all). Like any hypothesis, one makes a very strong claim in order to counter the prevailing assumption (that language is an invented response to the world). Most linguists are aware that reality is somewhere in between. But experiments like this are an important way of refining our knowledge of the relationship between language and perception.

      The hypothesis is an interesting one because it turns common-sense upside down. It remains interesting even if it is only 10% true.

  21. Neurolinguistic oversimplification? by Floody · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I believe this is somewhat of a simplification. It may be applicable in terms of auditory perception and processing, but as everyone knows, language is much more than the sum of individual words.

    Neurolinguistic events are examples of associative cascade events. This is illustrated by the classic example: "Don't think of an elephant." Immediately after reading and comprehending the linguistic elements of the sentence, each and every reader of this post made the applicable associative connections resulting in the contemplation (even if minor and short-lived) of one of our long-nosed pachyderm friends. Even if it was understood that the instruction was not to make the association, by the time this level of awareness was achieved, the cascade was already in progress and unstoppable.

    The context of such associative cascades (especially more sophisticated varieties) is largely cultural; however the portions of the brain most likely to respond is based on each association in the chain and its relative contextual weight, rather than the phonetics of the original sound itself.

    Lyrical forms of linguistics, such as poetry and song, are particularly powerful because they offer a way to rapidly trigger abstract associations not related to logic, speech or visual images.

    1. Re:Neurolinguistic oversimplification? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is completely offtopic. The article was about visual perception, not auditory.

    2. Re:Neurolinguistic oversimplification? by m-laboratories · · Score: 1
      "This is illustrated by the classic example: "Don't think of an elephant." Immediately after reading and comprehending the linguistic elements of the sentence, each and every reader of this post made the applicable associative connections resulting in the contemplation (even if minor and short-lived) of one of our long-nosed pachyderm friends

      This is not as good an example as it might seem. Despite being counterintuitive, humans are actually able to voluntarily suppress memories in a way that makes it more difficult to retrieve them later (and this is confirmed through both implicit and explicit measures of memory).

      It may sound Freudian, but this time the mechanism for "repressing memories" is backed up by evidence.

  22. Sapir Whorf is BS by lawpoop · · Score: 4, Interesting

    There's no way that Sapir Whorf can be true. If it were, that means that, just off the top of my head, we couldn't lie, entertain theoretical possibilities, hear two sides of the same event, understand that we were misinformed earlier but have correct information now, tell a fictional story, etc.

    Stephen Pinker does a good job of debunking Sapir Whorf in _The Language Instinct_. The classic examples of the number of Eskimo words for snow is actually not true -- Inuit language has a lot of suffixes, but there are only a few different root words for snow. English has about as many root words for snow.

    The other example was factory workers or something who mistakenly disposed of cigarette butts in 'empty' barrels that were actually full of flammable fumes. Well, the workers weren't fooled by language; there were fooled by invisible fumes. An empty barrel looks exactly like one full of fumes.

    --
    Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
    -- Pablo Picasso
    1. Re:Sapir Whorf is BS by turangalila · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yes, Steven Pinker is excellent on this. The other example I remember him pointing is the German word Schadenfreude (the malicious satisfaction obtained from the misfortune of others). There is no Engligh word for that, but that doesn't mean English speakers don't know what that is or have no feelings like that. If you find and English speaker who doesn't know what Schadenfreude means, and you tell them, a likely response might be - "Cool, there's actually a word for that?!"

    2. Re:Sapir Whorf is BS by CaffeineAddict2001 · · Score: 1

      I beleive this is called "gloating"

    3. Re:Sapir Whorf is BS by koreaman · · Score: 1

      English may not have a separate word for that, but I think "sadistic pleasure" works fine. So English can express this perfectly well, and your point is meaningless.

    4. Re:Sapir Whorf is BS by turangalila · · Score: 1

      It was actually Pinker's point; I'll pass it on champ.

    5. Re:Sapir Whorf is BS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Implicit association tests are pseudo-science.

    6. Re:Sapir Whorf is BS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Schadenfreude is the English word for schadenfreude, just like restaurant is the English word for restaurant. Languages are all mixed together, you aren't a fluent British English speaker without basic French and German, or Spanish for the U.S. - people use expressions from them all as a normal part of language.

      Schadenfreude is in the OED, and is a word any educated Brit is expected to know.

    7. Re:Sapir Whorf is BS by angelatlarge · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I think the strong form of Sapir-Whorf is generally taken to be that - too strong. However, Steven Pinker is not the only authority on the subject, and there are plenty of smart people who think that there is something to the weaker form of this (something like "the categories present in the speaker's native language must be attended to by the speaker"). This would mean that you can, in fact, learn concepts like "schadenfreude" but also if concepts like "schadenfreude" are present in your language you are probably more attuned to them. Which is what the study demonstrates, I think.

      This is easier to talk about with more "differing" concepts (rathen than simply presence/absence of a lexical item, such as "schadenfreude", like absolute (north-south) directions versus relative (left-right). This http://www.anthrosource.net/doi/abs/10.1525/jlin.1 993.3.1.3 is a link to an article about a speaker of an absolute direction-language modifying his gestures showing how the boat capsized based on his (the speaker's) position at the time of the telling. The storyteller always used the correct ABSOLUTE gesture showing the flip (say, along the east-west axis): something that's hard (for me, at least) to imagine a speaker of English doing.

      --
      And yet it also pleases me and seems right that what is of value and wisdom to one man seems nonsense to another -Hesse
    8. Re:Sapir Whorf is BS by lawpoop · · Score: 1

      Well, I haven't encoutered any of the weak forms of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis. Sorry I am undereducated ;)

      I didn't understand the point of the article you linked to. Was it that the speakers described in the article use absolute cardinal direction when talking about movement in space? If that's so, isn't that just like saying "on its east side" instead of "on starboard", just using seperate words instead of inflections?

      I've heard several scenarios where some language has some kind of information in an inflection or conjugation that is an optional word or phrase in English. IIRC there is some Native American language where you always specify the 'handedness' of a bit of knowledge -- I experienced it, I saw it, I saw the results of it, I heard it from the source, I heard it second-hand, or It is common knowledge. I guess the weak Sapir-Whorf hypothesis is that since use of this language requires you to use these inflections, the perception of reality is different than for speakers whose inclusion of that information is optional... is that correct?

      I also notice that English speakers *do* use absolute cardinal directions when describe locations in space (at least here in Columbus, OH) -- they point with their hands.

      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
    9. Re:Sapir Whorf is BS by lawpoop · · Score: 1

      Gloating is an outward, visible celebration. Schadenfreude is an inner feeling, invisible to others.

      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
    10. Re:Sapir Whorf is BS by koreaman · · Score: 1

      I've never heard it, maybe it's a chiefly British thing.

    11. Re:Sapir Whorf is BS by g2devi · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Have a look at this link:

      http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3582794.stm

      It's a concrete example how language limits what an Amazonian tribe can understand and how it limits what they are able to do.

    12. Re:Sapir Whorf is BS by Knuckles · · Score: 1

      If that's so, isn't that just like saying "on its east side" instead of "on starboard"

      If I may jump in ... It's not "just like saying". It's thinking in absolute coordinates (and perceiving yourself to be relative to an absolute coordinate system). But have you ever seen a native English speaker adjusting his position in present space to indicate the correct absolute direction of a past event? I don't think I have

      --
      "When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
    13. Re:Sapir Whorf is BS by angelatlarge · · Score: 1

      > If that's so, isn't that just like saying "on its east side"
      > instead of "on starboard", just using seperate words instead of inflections?

      Well, yes and no. In this case whether it is inflection or separate works really does not matter. If the only (main) devices for describing spatial locations your language has are cardinal, then you can't say things like "grab the apple to the left of the coke bottle, not the one on the right", but instead you must use North/South/East/West, right? If so, then you always have to be aware of your orientation in absolute space, even indoors, at night, and in unfamiliar surroundings, etc. If this was true, then at least some part of Sapir/Whorf hypothesis would be right, because it seems that speakers of non-cardinal direction languages are NOT generally aware of their absolute orientation in space. The cardinal direction speakers experience "reality" differently because they are aware of the absolute orientation always, or at least that would be one claim one could make.

      But that's just using cardinal orientation when you have to. So now imagine a guy is telling a story about almost drowing, nearly getting eaten by a shark, etc. The first time he tells the story, he is facing (say) north, and he flips his left hand forward from palm down to palm up while holding it perpendicular to the direction he is facing. The next time though, he is facing east, and flips his hand counterclockwise, while holding it parallel to the direction he is facing. This way he positions the "boat" always the same ABSOLUTE way - along east/west axis. I would imagine no speaker of English would do that. More likely, I think, the gesture would reflect the orientation of the speaker relative to the boat at the time she/he saw it capsize, no? If this is true, then the Gugu Yimidhir speaker is attending to the cardinal orientation even when he really does not need to - who cares how the boat was REALLY positioned when you are talking about narrowly escaping from shark-infested waters.

      I probably should say here that while some linguists (Levinson for Tenejapa Tzeltal) have argued that absolute direction speakers are worse at completing tasks requiring use of relative direction manipulation, others have challenged this with their own studies. So the jury is still out, and this is an interesting debate that has been raging in linguistics for some time, and looks set to go on much longer. This left/right lobe distinction is a puzzling (to me) contribution to the discussion.

      Yes I think you are right about "information source" distinction grammaticalized in languages - supporters of Sapir/Whorf would argue that somehow those speakers attend more to these kinds of distinctions between "I know"/"I heard"/"Everyone knows".

      You are also right about English speakers using cardinal directions - it seems to be more common in some locales than others, as you point out. I think it would be interesting to do a study on whether we can see any more cardinal "awareness" in people who live in those places.

      --
      And yet it also pleases me and seems right that what is of value and wisdom to one man seems nonsense to another -Hesse
    14. Re:Sapir Whorf is BS by Krach42 · · Score: 1

      Wow, people without a word for "8" and "10" cannot remember whether they were shown eight or ten elements previously. It's like they'd have to visually remember it.

      I'll give you a task. WITHOUT counting, tell me how many periods are at the end of this sentence..........

      Now, without counting tell me if it matches the number after this one.........

      The reason we can tell the difference is because we count up the dots then memorize the number, then count up the other dots then we relate those numbers together, not the dots themselves. But without counting, we can't relate them any better than a language with only the words 1, 2, and many.

      --

      I am unamerican, and proud of it!
    15. Re:Sapir Whorf is BS by Krach42 · · Score: 1

      Alright, I'll give you a word in German that definitely doesn't have a word in English: Älterzähne. It means "old people teeth" or just "old teeth". Of course an expression of the meaning exists in English, but a specific word itself doesn't exist singularly.

      BTW, this word was coined during a German poetry class I took in college, but it follows the correct German word building process, and thus would not be marked as incorrectly spellt by a proper spellchecker.

      --

      I am unamerican, and proud of it!
    16. Re:Sapir Whorf is BS by lawpoop · · Score: 1

      Numbers are a special case. We spend a long time teaching children how to count properly in public schools. They've known 1 through 10 since they were 3 years old, but they still can't use them properly until like the 3rd or 4th grade. It's not a matter of language, is a matter of concept and understanding.

      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
    17. Re:Sapir Whorf is BS by Halo+Nine · · Score: 1
      Neither Sapir nor Whorf say that you can't lie or theorize. Just in "The Relation of Habitual Thought and Behavior to Language," Whorf states, when talking about the habitual thought worlds of people who speak different languages:

      "By 'habitual thought' and 'thought world' I mean more than simply language, i.e. than the linguistic patterns themselves. I include all the analogical and suggestive value of the patterns... and all the give-and-take between language and the culture as a whole, wherein is a vast amount that is not linguistic but yet shows the shaping influence of language."


      Whorf also quotes Sapir:

      "It is quite an illusion to imagine that one adjusts to reality essentially without the use of language... The fact of the matter is that the 'real world' is to a large extent unconsciously built up on the language habits of the group.... We see and hear and otherwise experience very largely as we do because the language habits of our community predispose certain choices of interpretation."


      I added all the italics. What is really at issue is, as Whorf says, language's "constant ways of arranging data." Sapir and Whorf never said that any linguistic restriction of people might be absolute. It seems to me they were very careful about that. They are just saying that we should consider how different languages nudge people in different directions, maybe similar to how, when you get into the habit of doing a thing one way, you forget to consider how you could do it faster, more accurately, more elegantly, and so on.

      Pinker's examples you give there are only jumping-off points for the development of the hypothesis.
      --

      -_-
    18. Re:Sapir Whorf is BS by lawpoop · · Score: 1

      Well, here in Columbus Oh, if you ask someone for driving directions, they will usually rotate their bodies to cardinal directions with each turn in the directions. I do it myself. Or, if you are in limited space, you point your body to the final destination, and then use your arm or hand to indicate the cardinal direction turns.

      And besides, if you are capable of saying it, doesn't that require you to be capable of *thinking* it in the first place, or am I missing the point here?

      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
    19. Re:Sapir Whorf is BS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hmm, I will coin the word "bliters" to describe old person's teeth, as a portmanteau of "biters" and "blighted", as old people's teeth are often damaged, yellowed, and failing.

      There :) Now we have an English equivalent for your German word!

    20. Re:Sapir Whorf is BS by angelatlarge · · Score: 1

      I think part of the reason Sapir/Whorf went out of fashion is because "researchers" used to say things like this all the time... "Look at those guys they don't have a word for X, and they cannot understand X, therefore they are REALLY primitive". The first observation is an empirical one, though hard to prove generally (how do you show that language A does not have a word for X), while the second is impossible to prove, and the third... well, that's just a value judgement.

      It must be noted that neither Sapir nor Whorf engaged in this type of analysis, as far as I know. The weak form of the Sapir/Whorf hypothesis does not suffer from this esthetic flaw: it is concerned more about what people can do rather than what they cannot.

      --
      And yet it also pleases me and seems right that what is of value and wisdom to one man seems nonsense to another -Hesse
    21. Re:Sapir Whorf is BS by Hatta · · Score: 1

      It's a concrete example how language limits what an Amazonian tribe can understand and how it limits what they are able to do.

      How do you know that it's the language and not something else, perhaps genetic. You have to do the obvious experiment, teach one of those fellows English and see if they can count. If they can, it indicates that the innumeracy is because of their language. If they can't count, or can't learn english, there are probably other factors than just the language.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    22. Re:Sapir Whorf is BS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But if we look at the weaker forms of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, it really isn't that interesting. All it is saying is that previous experience colours our view of the world and affects the ease of picking up new information according to how closely related it is to our previous experience.

      That's so obvious that it almost goes without saying! Everyone knows that someone who studied maths in school will likely pick up new mathematical concepts more easily than someone who studied art or history. Everyone knows that we have cultural and political biases from our background which affect our ability to interpret new information.

      The weaker hypothesis just really doesn't say anything interesting. And the strong form is ridiculously bad logic (a language where it is you have a concept that can't be understood by someone without pre-existing knowledge of that language, is a language that can't be learnt, and therefore can't exist. After all, nobody is born knowing a language!)

      So in the end, we are left with the weaker form that is almost a truism, and doesn't give us any predictive power towards the boundaries of previous experience as influence on new information. It really doesn't bear mention, IMHO :)

    23. Re:Sapir Whorf is BS by Petrushka · · Score: 1

      That's the so-called "strong" Sapir-Whorf hypothesis. But the strong version has only ever been a straw-man, invented by people like Pinker to have something to debunk. The so-called "weak" version is what people actually study.

    24. Re:Sapir Whorf is BS by angelatlarge · · Score: 1

      If you believe that your native language is learned, then you are probably right. However, if you (like many linguists) hold that language is not learned, but rather aquired (it does not matter what that means right now), that is that the mechanisms that go into children "learning" to speak are radically different from from those that underlie you learning math, then the S/W hypothesis becomes more interesting. This also resolves the strong version paradox you present.

      --
      And yet it also pleases me and seems right that what is of value and wisdom to one man seems nonsense to another -Hesse
    25. Re:Sapir Whorf is BS by Knuckles · · Score: 1

      So if they tell an account of their near car-accident the other way, they will indicate the actual compass direction the other guy came from?

      Say, yesterday they headed south in their car, and the other guy came came from western direction.
      In your conversation today they stand facing north. Will they actually point to the left to indicate the direction their opponent came from?

      I have never seen this.

      --
      "When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
    26. Re:Sapir Whorf is BS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dentures.

      for just one: snaggletooth.

    27. Re:Sapir Whorf is BS by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 1

      The other example I remember him pointing is the German word Schadenfreude (the malicious satisfaction obtained from the misfortune of others). There is no Engligh word for that

      Sure there is: Schadenfreude. We'll take words from anywhere; we're not proud.

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    28. Re:Sapir Whorf is BS by radtea · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This would mean that you can, in fact, learn concepts like "schadenfreude" but also if concepts like "schadenfreude" are present in your language you are probably more attuned to them..

      Which is so weak as to be completely uninteresting because it is completely obvious. It is only by the introduction of the strong form of the S-W hypothesis that anyone ever gets any heat in this debate, and yet at the end of the day everyone (sane) agrees that the strong form is trivially wrong.

      The whole Sapir-Worf debate is nothing but one big intellectual bait-and-switch. I wish "advocates" of S-W would be honest, and preface their statements with, "I'm not defending the strong form of S-W, which everyone knows to be trivially wrong, but the weak form, which everyone knows to be trivially obvious." Then everyone can throw muffins at them for introducing a completely uninteresting topic of conversation--who wants to talk about something everyone agrees is true?

      --
      Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
    29. Re:Sapir Whorf is BS by Krach42 · · Score: 1

      Hmm, I will coin the word "bliters" to describe old person's teeth, as a portmanteau of "biters" and "blighted", as old people's teeth are often damaged, yellowed, and failing.

      There :) Now we have an English equivalent for your German word!


      Yes, you have. But the thing is that English spell checkers will mark that wrong, and it's not evidently clear from the word "bliters" what you mean. Meanwhile, "Älterzähne" clearly means what it means, because it is composed of the words "alt" (old)/"Älter" (elder) and "Zähne" pl of "Zahn" (tooth).

      So, your word while having been coined to mean what the word I presented means, would still require explanation and still then would be a suboptimal choice. In the German though, it has a transparent meaning, it's regularized, and its construction and coining is normal and not at all unusual in German.

      Yours is a neologism, mine is a regularized output from a grammatical rule.

      --

      I am unamerican, and proud of it!
    30. Re:Sapir Whorf is BS by g2devi · · Score: 2, Interesting

      But how much of a special case is it? Our language has a word for the concept of "one more", and so we're capable of expressing the concept of counting in words, and thus arithmetic.

      Apparently it's possible to teach 3rd and 4th grade students about binary arithmetic just by asking directed questions:
                    http://www.garlikov.com/Soc_Meth.html
      The class already knew the concept of binary arithmetic, they just didn't know how to express it.

      This tribe should already understand binary concepts (zero or many), at first glance, it should be possible to teach them binary arithmetic. The problem is, since there is no way to express that 11 and 111 are different, or how to convert one to the other (just "add one") and thus we can't teach them to count.

      What I think Whorf was trying to say is that words are the way our minds can express and understand concepts. If we don't have a word, but we can express a concept in a language, then the language we use doesn't limit us. For example, we may not have a single word that can express the concept of "wet slushy snow with ice crystals", but since we have a string of words that can do it, we can still express our ideas. The problem comes when we have a concept that we can't put into words no matter how many words we string together. Because we don't have words for it, the concept cannot be related to other concepts or use as a basis for our thoughts. In mathematical terms, they are the "basis" in a vector space. The concepts we think about is limitted by the span of this vector space. Anything outside this vector space span are inaccessible to us, in much the same way that the third dimension is inaccessible to a flatlander. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flatland )

    31. Re:Sapir Whorf is BS by Knuckles · · Score: 1

      If the only (main) devices for describing spatial locations your language has are cardinal, then you can't say things like "grab the apple to the left of the coke bottle, not the one on the right"

      I discussed that with another guy the other day here at /. and we didn't come to a conclusion. What if you ask the absolute direction-language guy, "With which hand do you throw a spear?"?*

      Using absolute orientation does not make any sense - it doesn't change. What would he say?

      And btw, many thanks for the link. I had read about research into this years ago in a newspaper, but this is the first time I found some real info. This article I read also mentioned languages whose coordinate system depended on elevation. Their users - according to the article south american indians in the Andes - would describe their orientation as upwards, downwards, etc. Got any info on that? Would be much appreciated.

      * That's what we came up with, sorry for any racist slur

      --
      "When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
    32. Re:Sapir Whorf is BS by lawpoop · · Score: 2, Informative

      "What I think Whorf was trying to say is that words are the way our minds can express and understand concepts. If we don't have a word, but we can express a concept in a language, then the language we use doesn't limit us."

      You are right on both counts. What you are missing is that Whorf disagrees with your second sentence -- Whorf would say that language *limits* our expressive ability. Most linguists would argue that language *enables* expression. If there is a concept that we don't have a word or phrase for, we can build it out of lanauge. That's the critical difference. Whorf would have you believe that if it isn't in the dictionary, you aren't aware of it.

      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
    33. Re:Sapir Whorf is BS by lawpoop · · Score: 1

      They might. I've seen it. I do it myself. (In our theoretical example, if the story has the teller heading south in the car, the teller stands facing south, not north).

      What does this have to do with linguistic determinism?

      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
    34. Re:Sapir Whorf is BS by angelatlarge · · Score: 2, Informative

      Disclaimer: I am really an expert in spatial cognition, yadda-yadda yadda, so take everything I say with a grain of salt.

      The easy question first:
      > describe their orientation as upwards, downwards, etc
      > Got any info on that?

      I think Stephen C. Levinson (perhaps with Penelope Brown) working on Tenejapa Tzeltal argued that there is only the Uphill/Downhill/Side in that language. This seems to be specific to the Tenejapa variant, presumably having something to do with the locale there. I've been working on Petalcingo Tzeltal and have not come across this, but that may not mean much - I really did not investigate it, it is too complicated ;)

      > What if you ask the absolute direction-language guy,
      > With which hand do you throw a spear?"?
      Hmmmm... I don't _really_ know, but I could speculate. If the language really only has cardinal reference, then possible answers might be "THIS hand" (if the interlocutor is visible) and "The one currently north/south and I am facing east/west" though this last one seems silly. There is an interesting typological question as to whether there are ANY languages that have ONLY cardinal reference and nothing else - I really don't know the answer, but it seems unlikely. I think usually there are different modalities available for different tasks: absolute for open spaces and large distances, perhaps relative or body-part analogy ("the coke bottle is at the foot of the table") for proximate locations. So my coke bottle example in a previous post is a bit unfortunate in that respect - perhaps a house and a tree would be better.
      So clearly there are languages where the cardinal reference is PRIMARY (at least for certain tasks), but that is different.

      --
      And yet it also pleases me and seems right that what is of value and wisdom to one man seems nonsense to another -Hesse
    35. Re:Sapir Whorf is BS by MatterOfMind · · Score: 1

      But if we look at the weaker forms of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, it really isn't that interesting. All it is saying is that previous experience colours our view of the world and affects the ease of picking up new information according to how closely related it is to our previous experience.

      Clarifying question - are you suggesting that the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis has weaker forms in publication, or that there are less extremist ways to interpret and apply the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis? You are suggesting that prior experience is the active force here, but another interpretation of these types of results is that epistemology affects learning (in chemistry, physics, and biology [PDF or "View as HTML"]). Within this framework for science education research, cognition is modeled from a "knowledge-in-pieces" perspective, wherein certain cognitive resources are active when a mind is thinking in a particular context about some particular concept or field of content. So, although prior experience certainly shapes the development of personal epistemology and personal epistemological cognitive resources, these aren't actually prior experiences, they are "filters" that, in a very "Kant-ian" sense, determine what information is "read out" from the environment and also affect the way that information input is processed.

      That's so obvious that it almost goes without saying! Everyone knows that someone who studied maths in school will likely pick up new mathematical concepts more easily than someone who studied art or history. Everyone knows that we have cultural and political biases from our background which affect our ability to interpret new information.

      So, to continue looking at this from an epistemological perspective, we can see that it's much more complex than just prior experience, even within a given domain. If a student has taken a bunch of math classes, but has had horrible experiences in those learning environments, they won't necessarily be any better at learning new math than someone who doesn't have the same experience in the subject. Of course, you can substitute just about any subject in for "math" in the above scenario. I would argue that it's more appropriate to think about culture and political frameworks as influencing personal epistemological development than it is to say that they affect cognition directly.

      The weaker hypothesis just really doesn't say anything interesting. And the strong form is ridiculously bad logic (a language where it is you have a concept that can't be understood by someone without pre-existing knowledge of that language, is a language that can't be learnt, and therefore can't exist. After all, nobody is born knowing a language!)

      I'm not sure that I agree here, either. Imagination is a powerful cognitive resource. There is a further "extreme" to your logic game, and that's at the level of generating language itself. I think your argument breaks here, and the reason is that we can imagine, and then use analogy to build the new image for another brain. See recent developments in mirror neuron research.

      So in the end, we are left with the weaker form that is almost a truism, and doesn't give us any predictive power towards the boundaries of previous experience as influence on new information

    36. Re:Sapir Whorf is BS by oroborous · · Score: 1

      I think this is completely missing the point. Pinker argues against the most pure form of the Sapir-Worf hypothesis (e.g. language affects the principle components of color vision), which everybody but hard-core linguists would say is wrong by now. However, it's not unrealistic to assume that because much of our "perceptual" experience is reconstructed and not based solely on visual input (e.g. there's way too much incoming information to be able to build our perceptual experience purely on the mountain of information coming from the retina), this reconstruction could be modified by higher level phenomenon like language. This is just one of many examples out there that what we see in the mind's-eye is not necessarily what we get from the real world. Seeing may be believing, but it ain't exactly the truth.

    37. Re:Sapir Whorf is BS by lawpoop · · Score: 1

      "If so, then you always have to be aware of your orientation in absolute space, even indoors, at night, and in unfamiliar surroundings, etc."

      Well... you don't *really* have to know which way is North... just the speaker and the listener have to agree.

      Going back to my Columbus, OH example, I've noticed that some people, when they are giving location directions and pointing out landmarks, they are <whisper>pointing the wrong way</whisper>. I can think of one instance standing outside, and one instance inside a building. From the way they were pointing, they weren't even pointing in a fashion that they were looking at a map with north at the top. They were just randomly oriented. Anyway, my point is that, it doesn't matter wether they were actually pointed at the landmarks, whether their gestures were oriented towards an invisible map in front of them, with north at the top, or whether they were just totally off. As long as they were *consistent* in their turns, I could correct their wrong orientation and understand the directions.

      So if you only have cardinal directions to refer to things in space, and, say, it's night, you might just say "the tree on the east", and the listener may or may not understand your meaning. So when they go to cut down the wrong tree, you say "No, the tree on the *East*!" And they say, "Oh, the *other* East" ;)

      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
    38. Re:Sapir Whorf is BS by lawpoop · · Score: 1

      I have some more thoughts on this. It seems to me, based on my experience in Columbus, OH, that some people have an 'internal compass', and some people don't. I myself have a strong compass -- not that there's anything magnetic going on inside of me, but I always have a theory of my cardinal direction orientation. It's based off of environmental clues -- mostly position of the sun, and the general East-West-North-South grid layout of Columbus streets and buildings. So even at night I have an idea of cardinal directions, because of streets and buildings. But I know that this is based on clues, because certain times I was turned around, in, say a hospital or office building, and when I came out, the sun was in the wrong part of the sky, for example. When that happens, I get very naseous. ;)

      We seem to have a cultural thing here in Columbus, where when you are talking about a suburb or section of Columbus, you are expected to point to the location. I know that I've been corrected for pointing the wrong way: "We were in Whitehall..."

      "You mean Whitehall?" (Listener points in another direction)

      I think because of the grid of the city, the flatness of the land, and the ring of suburbs around Columbus, this makes it an easy way to refer to locations -- if you can do it. Of course, not everyone can do this birds-eye-view, boy scout compass transformations and directions. They constantly apologize when they give directions. Some people just don't point. Some people refer to a map they are imagining in front of them, with north at the top. I can tell this because I am standing at the East or West of the map, and I see the 90* rotation I have to make to understand their directions. Some people just go ahead and point, without actual reference to a north oriented map, or the actual directions. For instance, my mom ;) And she says "Oh, c'mon" when I try to correct her pointing.

      So maybe in this language you are expected to attend to cardinal directions no matter what. Maybe this guy who told the shark-bait story was good with cardinal directions, and would consistently orient himself properly, and make the proper hand gesture transformations, no matter where he was standing when he told the story. Maybe other people aren't so good at cardinal directions, and ethnographers just haven't caught them messing up the re-telling of a story. Maybe a story recounter has can't tell the cardinal directions in every day life, but when they tell a story, they have settled on a direction for that story, and are able to stick with it.

      Maybe it's like left and right in our culture. We are expected to attend to it, but some people are bad at it, which is why we have snarky phrases like "Oh, you mean the *other* left?"

      Does any of this make sense?

      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
    39. Re:Sapir Whorf is BS by Knuckles · · Score: 1

      Thank you.

      --
      "When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
    40. Re:Sapir Whorf is BS by Knuckles · · Score: 1

      And wow, you've written more in this one story than in 6 years before :O

      --
      "When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
    41. Re:Sapir Whorf is BS by Elad+Alon · · Score: 1

      There's no difference between sticking two words together and putting them side by side, as far as the expressive power of a language is concerned. As such, your example is irrelevant. What would be relevant is a single word of what we'll call reasonable length which would take a much greater number of words to translate into another language (not as a dictionary entry; in a sentence).

      --
      News for merdes. Shit that matters.
      Ask me about my sig.
    42. Re:Sapir Whorf is BS by Knuckles · · Score: 1

      They might. I've seen it. I do it myself.

      I have never seen that and surely never done. The other person in our subthread who actually knwos what he/she's talking about (angelatlarge) pointed out that cardinal-language users would do so at night, inside etc, and that there is debate whether there are cardinal-only languages. It seems that in most cases there is just a dominance of one version(absolute or relative) over the other.

      What does this have to do with linguistic determinism?

      Not sure, but read my question to angelatlarge and his answer.
      Basically, if a language had only cardinal expressions, and you could show that its users can not think/imagine/experience in relative terms, this would be a very strong point for determinism, no?

      --
      "When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
    43. Re:Sapir Whorf is BS by lawpoop · · Score: 1

      This is just a guess, but this is what I replied to the expert on the thread: if your language requires you to use cardinal directions, and only cardinal directions, when refering to objects in space, that doesn't mean you actually have to know your current or past orientation. For it to work, all that has to happen is that the listener and the speaker agree. It's like talking about "North Umbridge" when we are already both north of North Umbridge, so that it would be south of us. We both know where we are referring to, so it doesn't matter that we are incorrect in a sense.

      So if I say "cut down the tree on the east", and I actually mean the tree on the north, I still communicate if the listener silently corrects my lousy directions. Or, even if I fail and the listener heads to the wrong tree, I say "Hey dummy! I said the tree on the *East*!" and the listener grumbles "what an idiot... why can't he learn his directions?"

      Although the report of the shark-bait story teller repositioning himself in space and correcting his hand gestures is fascinating, I wonder if *all* of the speakers of that language would be able to do that. It might be like left and right in our culture. Most people can handle it, but some people can't. That's where we get snarky phrases like "Oh, you mean the *other* left?".

      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
    44. Re:Sapir Whorf is BS by Etosoerc · · Score: 1

      I don't agree with your conclusion. You can (atleast I could) just look and see that the second series is shorter than the first one. That does not involve any counting, just a good sense of distance and proportion. What you are saying is that one could not see whether one stick is longer than the other, without in your head do some form of counting (of what? Atoms? Centimeters?), which is utter nonsense.

      --

      "What's in the public interest, isn't what the public is interested in" - Terry Pratchett
    45. Re:Sapir Whorf is BS by Krach42 · · Score: 1
      There's no difference between sticking two words together and putting them side by side, as far as the expressive power of a language is concerned. As such, your example is irrelevant.

      I disagree. German actually has grammatical rules concerning how words can be compounded. As such, they form full words. The only question remaining, can it be more expressive? Well, duh, it's meaning can be expressed in another language with a finite number of words, but so can anything.

      What would be relevant is a single word of what we'll call reasonable length which would take a much greater number of words to translate into another language (not as a dictionary entry; in a sentence).

      At this point, we're dealing solely with German into English. To ask for a word which will take a greater number of words to translate into another language (this presumed to be arbitrary) doesn't work, because of Agglutinative languages, which can construct things like:

      For example, the official Guinness world record is Finnish epäjärjestelmällistyttämättömyydellänsäkäänköhän "Wonder if he can also ... with his capability of not causing things to be unsystematic".

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agglutination


      But very well, there's your one word that takes a large number of words in order to translate into English, or any other nonagglutinative language.
      --

      I am unamerican, and proud of it!
    46. Re:Sapir Whorf is BS by Elad+Alon · · Score: 1

      German, as well as any other language I know of, has a rule about sticking two words next to each other - its grammar.

      --
      News for merdes. Shit that matters.
      Ask me about my sig.
    47. Re:Sapir Whorf is BS by Knuckles · · Score: 1

      when refering to objects in space, that doesn't mean you actually have to know your current or past orientation. For it to work, all that has to happen is that the listener and the speaker agree.

      Agreed, but only with the logic.

      I just don't think that the languages we are talking about do that. At least, if the cardinal corrections that they use do not refer to the correct directions, they do so in a stable and predictable manner, not ad-hoc per location. I haven't purchased the article yet, but I'm sure that they are really absolute. At least bsolute on a scale suited for wandering the vast open spaces of Australia. Angelatlarge's descriptions also clearly suggested that for me.

      The same goes for Tenejapa Tzeltal, spoken by people in the Andes and mentioned somewhere in our thread. People have suggested it might have a coordinate system based on elevation (uphill side/downhill side). Again, close relation to the environment and a precise way of communicating what really counts in the given environment. And no doubt about absoluteness :)

      --
      "When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
    48. Re:Sapir Whorf is BS by Knuckles · · Score: 1

      Yes, you have. But the thing is that English spell checkers will mark that wrong, and it's not evidently clear from the word "bliters" what you mean. Meanwhile, "Älterzähne" clearly means what it means, because it is composed of the words "alt" (old)/"Älter" (elder) and "Zähne" pl of "Zahn" (tooth).

      No. This only means that German spellcheckers suck. Being a German speaker myself who uses spellcheckers in my job, I can attest to that the only thing they (well, MS's, I just realize I know no others) catch are typos. They will miss each and every meaningless word that happens to be built from meaningful words. And if you write an actually existing compound word that they don't know, they will suggest all kinds of meaningless compounds they pull from god knows where.

      What good is that, and why should it prove anything except maybe how little we actually know about language.

      --
      "When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
    49. Re:Sapir Whorf is BS by Krach42 · · Score: 1

      German, as well as any other language I know of, has a rule about sticking two words next to each other - its grammar.

      Grammar dictates everything even morphology, seeing as how morphology is simply a part of grammar (since grammar covers everything in language between phonology and pragmatics). The fact that German uses grammar to put two words together into one larger compound word does not disprove my point that this compound word is still none-the-less rightfully a word, and not a higher language construct.

      German compound words are build through morphology (word construction) not syntax (sentence construction). This should be apparent to anyone who actually speaks German, which is why I can only assume that you neither speak German, nor have you studied it in sufficient detail to make such a statement that the compound words of German are in fact being built through syntax, and not morphology.

      To task, I will analyse the word "Älterzähne." Being that it is constructed with two words "Älter" and "Zähne", we're tasked with how to put two such words together. Well, using syntax, we can make the phrase: "Zähne eines Älters" (teeth of an old person), or "Zähne des Älters" (teeth of the old person), "Zähne dieses Älters" (teeth of this old persons), but we don't want to express any of these, we want to express the same notion as is perceived with "Älterzähne".

      Well, let's assume that "Älter" is a modifying noun that is syntactically attached to "Zähne". Being that "Zähne" has plural gender, this would require a syntactic compliance of gender and number (for all purposes plural can be treated as a seperate gender in German), thus we would have the form: "*Ältere Zähne" being that the strong adjectival ending for modifying words is "-e" in the nominative and accusative for plural nouns. Now let's singularize "Zähne" to "Zahn", which is masculine. Now, instead of "*Ältere Zähne" we have "*Älterer Zahn". But in the singular of "Älterzähne" we have "Älterzahn" neither have any grammatical ending on "Älter".

      Interesting enough though, "älter" is an adjective in German as the superlative of "alt" (old), so the expressions "älterer Zahn" and "ältere Zähne" do exist, and are distinctly different from nomimal word compounding, which is done in German.

      Considering that native speakers of German perceive these words as compounds rather than seperate words, and considering that there is absolutely no support for the assertion that there is a syntactical rule for composition of these words, it can only fall that these are morphological compounds. In fact, what rules do exist for compounding words show the same features of every morphological construction, namely vocal harmony. The fact that one or the other morpheme may mutate, or have another interdicting phomene placed between them in order to maintain the harmony of the word.

      --

      I am unamerican, and proud of it!
    50. Re:Sapir Whorf is BS by Elad+Alon · · Score: 1

      You wrote an interesting message about German grammar, but I still don't see how this debunks my original point, which was - word compounding doesn't add expressive power to a language (finesse, yes - but not power), and as such, the existence of certain compound words in one language, but not in another, is very unlikely to result in a difference in the way speaker of those different languages think. Thinking of "AelterZaehne" and thinking of "elder/elderly/old/ancient/rotten teeth" doesn't strike me as different.

      --
      News for merdes. Shit that matters.
      Ask me about my sig.
    51. Re:Sapir Whorf is BS by Elad+Alon · · Score: 1

      I meant, of course, "Älterzähne", not "ÄlterZähne". Not sure how that captial letter sneaked its way inside there.

      --
      News for merdes. Shit that matters.
      Ask me about my sig.
    52. Re:Sapir Whorf is BS by Krach42 · · Score: 1

      You wrote an interesting message about German grammar, but I still don't see how this debunks my original point, which was - word compounding doesn't add expressive power to a language (finesse, yes - but not power), and as such, the existence of certain compound words in one language, but not in another, is very unlikely to result in a difference in the way speaker of those different languages think. Thinking of "Aelterzaehne" and thinking of "elder/elderly/old/ancient/rotten teeth" doesn't strike me as different.

      First, since the adjective "älter" covers "old/ancient teeth", the word "Älterzähne" very much depicts "old people teeth", which could refer to dentures, rotten teeth, or in fact, nice healthy teeth from someone who just has impecable dental hygene. But that's beside the point.

      Fundamentally, there's nothing "powerful" in any language. We all have different variations on how to say things. Yet we can still all say the same things. Saying "Es tut mir leid." (lit. "It does me sorrow.") isn't all that different from "I'm sorry." Or saying "Es gefällt mir." (lit. "it pleases me") isn't that different from "I like it." Yet all four of these examples are the regular and normal use of German/English respectively, and the other forms sound unusual, and odd.

      Saying, "Er hat mir geholfen." (lit. "He has helped to me (dative).") vs. "He helped me (accusative)." In the German, there is a more direct statement that the helping was done for my benefit, as opposed to anything else, but then, "helping someone" has that benefit implicit in the very statement. So, while German expresses more "powerfully" here, it is in fact expressing redundantly.

      If you want me to find you some unique power from compounding words together, it simply doesn't exist. Neither does any such power exist for any other grammatical form.

      --

      I am unamerican, and proud of it!
  23. What have we missed because of our language? by KingFeanor · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I don't find it surprising that our language constructs limit or expand our perceptions of reality. What worries me though is how little language an average American knows. Having worked many jobs over the years, I have been repeatedly struck by how limited in linguistical skills and vocabulary most people are. The average English speaking American seems to use the same words over and over to mean different things.

    I wonder how many discoveries we have missed because our language constrains us away from thinking about certain things. If we had more words and thus more distinctions for fundamental ideas and objects, we would very likely have greater understanding and regard for those things. I am reminded of how the Greek language differentiated between several types of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_words_for_love love and whereas the English language does not. Because of the linguistic distinctions, the Greeks appeared to have a greater understanding of the concept of love than we do in America. Mix this limitation of the English language with the generally minuscule vocabulary of individuals and it isn't surprising that we Americans are so simple minded.

    1. Re:What have we missed because of our language? by ConceptJunkie · · Score: 1

      the Greeks appeared to have a greater understanding of the concept of love than we do in America

      ObSimpsonsQuote: Discus Stu has ouzo for two-zo.

      I think we understand it plenty well, we just don't have a bunch of different words for it. On the whole, the language gets bigger all the time. Of course, I would guess that the average American's vocabulary is smaller than 50 years ago, and much smaller than 100 years ago.

      Now I have to get back to deciding if my love of the music of Spock's Beard is agape or eros.

      --
      You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
    2. Re:What have we missed because of our language? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That theory of yours is rather simple minded. It doesn't recognize that concepts can exist without words and be expressed without words. Typical slashdot geek response. "MEEEHHH I CAN'T QUANTIFY ITTTT ITT MUSSSTT NOOTTT EXXISSTTT!@!!!#@$!@#!"

      Lame ass fuckwad.

    3. Re:What have we missed because of our language? by cp.tar · · Score: 1

      This is why I've always thought Whorf's hypothesis to be trivial.

      I was so excited to read this title because only a few weeks ago I tried to explain to certain people in my linguistic class why it's so blazingly obvious... I failed and gave up.
      So at first I thought ah-ha! I was right! It's finally proven! - only to realize that the research only dealt with the visual.

      OK, so it is great and everything, but it doesn't deal with concepts and abstractions; only with concrete objects. I'd like to do research (and I might, when I finish my studies) on how language makes us susceptible to certain types of lies.

      BTW there is an area where the Americans have a very exhaustive vocabulary - psychoanalysis.
      It seems to be so deeply ingrained in your culture that every Oprah- or Jerry Springer-viewing housewife knows about assertiveness, denial etc. - some of which cannot even be adequately translated into my native Croatian.

      --
      Ignore this signature. By order.
    4. Re:What have we missed because of our language? by Knuckles · · Score: 1

      Tell me about it :) In this topic I exchanged several posts with Krach42 who seems very knowledgeable on the subject, but I too am exasperated and at a loss of words to explain how obvious (I have to restrain myself from using caps) it is. It doesn't help that I have no real understanding of linguistics.

      But isn't it obvious!

      --
      "When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
    5. Re:What have we missed because of our language? by cp.tar · · Score: 1

      While it is true that the strong Whorf's hypothesis is trivial to refute, anyone speaking several languages can intuitively know the weaker form is true. One of my colleagues, when I mailed him the link to this topic, said 'Well, we all knew it was true somewhere deep down.'

      --
      Ignore this signature. By order.
  24. Blue and not so blue by resonte · · Score: 1

    So the native english speakers were more able to distinguish the colours blue and green than the native mexican speakers..Is this a product of the language itself, or just the upbringing? A culture who's language doesn't differ between blue and green is not going to emphasise the distinction to it's children. Language does affect our visual outlook..but maybe not directly.

    --
    \(^o^)/
  25. This reminds me of a saying... by vertinox · · Score: 4, Interesting

    "It is easy problem to learn the things we do not know. The harder problem is trying know things that we do not know that we do not know."

    Personally, I wonder if I am limited by the English language to thoughts I wish to express. Maybe my mind is a computer, the neurons the cpu, my memories is the hard drive storage, but my language is the OS.

    However, what if I have Qbasic for DOS for my speaking language? No matter how powerful my brain is, I can't use this to create say "Doom 4" though expression for the mind. I'd need a specialized C++ compiler that optimized neurons in such a pattern to acheive this.

    What if that language doesn't exist yet? Is it possible that my brain could have thoughts and emotions, but can't because I can't use language to express them.

    On the bright side, English is a quickly mutating bastard language which seems fairly evolvable but sometimes I wonder if I should learn Japanese, Russian, or German and then end up with a new outlook on life.

    --
    "I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
    -Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
    1. Re:This reminds me of a saying... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Try Martian. I hear it does all of these things. Grok?

    2. Re:This reminds me of a saying... by SchrodingersRoot · · Score: 2, Informative

      Something like this was in the novella Gulf, by Robert Heinlein.
      Not to spoil anything, but superintelligent people were learned and used a language that was much more compact, expressive, nuanced, and abstract than previously, so they could communicate faster and with more precision, as well as think more quickly and more abstractly.

    3. Re:This reminds me of a saying... by Krach42 · · Score: 1

      What if that language doesn't exist yet? Is it possible that my brain could have thoughts and emotions, but can't because I can't use language to express them.

      This notion is the exact position that the strong Sapir-Whorf hypothesis takes. And nearly the entire linguistic community has concensus that this strong assertion Sapir-Whorf is not correct.

      Consider any arguement/debate you've been in, and you hit a brick wall trying to think of a way to say something. "I know what I want to say, I just can't think of the words to say it."

      Boom, strong Sapir-Whorf hypothesis beaten right there.

      The language you speak does not limit your thoughts, it just limits your expression of those thoughts. I run into this particularly often in that I speak English and German a lot. When I'm playing WoW (which I play in German) with my English speaking friends, I'm often tripped up by things, because I say "I need to find more... stuff... magic worked stuff... magi... mageweave!"

      It's not that English lacks a word for it, it's just that I'm more familiar speaking about it in German.

      --

      I am unamerican, and proud of it!
    4. Re:This reminds me of a saying... by rjstanford · · Score: 1

      On the bright side, English is a quickly mutating bastard language which seems fairly evolvable but sometimes I wonder if I should learn Japanese, Russian, or German and then end up with a new outlook on life.

      I would say so. I still remember that when I was learning French there was a moment of epiphany when I started to actually think in French, as opposed to doing translation on the fly. Some things were easier to consider that way, and there was a noticable difference in my thought patterns. Scary and cool at the same time. Now take that concept, and think (in whatever language) about all of the new doublethink words we're getting these days. About talking points that are repeated so much that they become part of common unrelated conversations, as phrases almost becoming words since they're used as blocks. Scary, eh?

      --
      You're special forces then? That's great! I just love your olympics!
    5. Re:This reminds me of a saying... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What if that language doesn't exist yet? Is it possible that my brain could have thoughts and emotions, but can't because I can't use language to express them.

      That's almost a certainty. For instance, animals have brains but don't seem to discuss politics and art much.

    6. Re:This reminds me of a saying... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's quite a bit theoretically wrong with your conditions. You're comparing a language that fell out of use 15 years ago to a language that's still used today - one with more advanced capabilities, etc. And, importantly, one specifically designed to improve upon previous versions.

      However, speech does not work that way. One language is just as expressive, regular, or complex as any other. There is no such thing as 'evolution' of a language. It simply changes over time to fit the culture best. English contains a mix of several different languages because it was useful for the people of the time to know those languages. Certain bits were adopted, as they made the speech of the time more efficient. Other features were not.

      On top of that, I would argue that language is more a product of culture than vice versa. We have the words we have in English because they are expressive of certain parts of the culture of English-speakers. So yes, there are feelings, concepts, etc that cannot be EASILY expressed in English that other languages may have more specific words for. For example, words are constantly borrowed from German and Latin for say, theoretical notions ("Gedanken experiment" comes to mind). However, you try hard enough, and you basically get what you were going for. Hence poetry.

      This, by the way, is a limitation of ALL language.
      You can get even more specific than that - in the tech field, new words are constantly being created as the field develops.

      So this is all a rambling way of saying that language is as useful as it needs to be for whoever's speaking it. It expands to fill the cultures. Therefore, extending something as physical as color discrimination to something philosophical as a world view is quite tricky, and probably best left alone.

    7. Re:This reminds me of a saying... by rbarreira · · Score: 1

      Funny, I was thinking about this exact same thing today while driving:

      I'm a native speaker of Portuguese and a fluent speaker of English, and I noticed that, in many situations, I think in english - maybe because the situation makes me think of something that reminds me of something I've read/heard in English.

      The other times I thought about this were more about how people seem to react to situations and feelings based on the most common expressions in the language describing them... So yes, I think that language heavily affects the things we feel and think.

      This made me wonder - when the primitive Homo Sapiens didn't have complex languages, could it understand all the feelings and thoughts that we understand now? Is language a limiting factor or is it just an upper level of conscience that we were trained since being children to treat as the level where thoughts really happen, the truth being that they are truly formed on a more basic level?

      --

      The AACS key is NOT 0xF606EEFD628B1CA427BEA93A9CA9773F
    8. Re:This reminds me of a saying... by typicallyterrific · · Score: 1

      I get that often too. (same position as you in the portuguese/english)

      I find english better suited for some math discussion (I've never found myself thinking about the concept of random before in pt). Also, one liners and slogans 'feel' more natural.

      On the other hand, abstract concepts and descriptions come out nicer in Portuguese, partly because of the runaway tangents the grammar allows us (think "saudade" and anything written by Saramago; you 'feel' emotions in english but 'have' emotions in portguese).

      I don't know if that makes any sense.

  26. language vs culture? by ajrs · · Score: 1

    or did they prove that the constant exposure to paint samples has sharpended our ability to distinguish color? I blame marketing.

  27. Thought is largely controlled by language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The thoughts you can think consciously are framed in the language you speak*. Someone who creates a thought that isn't encompassed by the language will have a hard time expressing it. Once the vocabulary develops, everyone can express it.

    It has been postulated that the computer language one uses most naturally will be the one that comes closest to one's native language. IIRC, Germans are supposed to like 'C' better than English speakers.

    *That's why some groups try to change the language. The idea is that if you change the language then you change people's thinking. For instance, if you don't like homosexuals, they would like to label you as a homophobe. The idea is to make it sound like you have an abnormal psychological condition. By the same token, we have replaced 'mailmen' with 'postal carriers', etc. At some point it doesn't work. For instance, the word 'indian' has developed a racist connotation in some circles. The 'indians' would now have you call them 'first nations.' The problem is that the new term quickly acquires all the old baggage and we're no further ahead.

    1. Re:Thought is largely controlled by language by ZorroXXX · · Score: 1
      Parent post doubleplusunfalse!

      ... or in other words, I fully agree with what the parent post says. To se an extreme fiction exploration about this (scaringly close to reality sometimes...), please read the appendix in the book 1984 about Newspeak .

      --
      When you are sure of something, you probably are wrong (search for "Unskilled and Unaware of It").
    2. Re:Thought is largely controlled by language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That you can think outside of your language pretty clearly demonstrates that thinking isn't constrained by language. It's the difficulty you find between having an idea and being able to clearly articulate it that makes Sapir-Whorf as silly as it is. I think in abstract forms and communicate to others using natural languages, and to compilers with artificial languages.

    3. Re:Thought is largely controlled by language by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 1

      Funny thing is that the limits of any one language can be transcended, in a sort of roundabout way. Ever since I started learning multiple tongues (English is native, learning Spanish and Modern Hebrew) I've been able to think without using words at all. But only since I really grasped some Spanish, and it's gotten better since I've been learning Hebrew.

      Maybe to learn multiple languages we learn to think without language again?

  28. Language or Color perception by geekwithsoul · · Score: 1

    I did RTFA, but it wasn't clear to me how exactly the color tests were being used to judge perception. What interests me is that other studies have shown that those populations who historically have lived nearer the equator have eyes that filter greens and blues differently than do other ethnic populations who lived further north or south (the pigments in the eyes are different, causing those in climes with less sunlight to usually have lighter colored eyes). I would be interested in seeing this experiment done again, but based on evaluations of something like blue and green that might actually be seen differently by different ethnic populations.

  29. And now for something totally different by softweyr · · Score: 4, Interesting
    I wonder if I should learn Japanese, Russian, or German and then end up with a new outlook on life

    Why settle for mundane utility languages? Learn Navajo or Swahili or Inuit, then design a programming language based on the linguistic concepts and world view you've now acquired. A Navajo-based computing language would be interesting, it would perhaps specialize in calculating only that which is actually worth calculating. Of course such a language would completely eliminiate Slashdot from existence.

    1. Re:And now for something totally different by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      I would suggest not wasting your time and just learning Lojban instead. AFAIR, it was, in fact, originally developed partially to test the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis. It is also a very neat design purely from a programming perspective, and for the same reason quite easy to learn (especially so if you had experience with Prolog or similar languages).

  30. Re:Don't think of the elephant!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is illustrated by the classic example: "Don't think of an elephant." Immediately after reading and comprehending the linguistic elements of the sentence, each and every reader of this post made the applicable associative connections resulting in the contemplation (even if minor and short-lived) of one of our long-nosed pachyderm friends.

    GOZER
    SUBCREATURES! GOZER THE GOZERIAN, GOZER
    THE DESTRUCTOR, VOLGUUS ZILDROHAR, THE
    TRAVELLER HAS COME! DON'T THINK OF THE ELEPHANT!

    VENKMAN
    (shouting to be heard)
    Is he talking to us?

    WINSTON
    What's he talking about? "Don't think of the elephant!"?

    STANTZ
    (to the heavens)
    What do you mean "Don't think of the elephant"? We don't
    understand.

    GOZER
    Don't think of the elephant!!

    SPENGLER
    I think he's saying that since we're about
    to be sacrificed anyway, we get to choose
    the form we want him to take.

    STANTZ
    You mean if I stand here and concentrate on
    the image an elephant, Gozer will
    appear as an elephant and wipe us out?

    SPENGLER
    That appears to be the case.

    VENKMAN
    (quickly)
    Don't think of the elephant. Clear your
    minds. We only get one crack at this.

    GOZER
    The choice is made. The Elephant has come.

    VENKMAN
    (in a panic)
    We didn't choose anything!
    (to the others)
    I didn't think of an elephant, did you?

    SPENGLER
    No.

    They look at Winston.

    WINSTON
    My mind's a total void!

    They all look at Stantz.

    STANTZ
    (guilty)
    I couldn't help it! The elephant just popped in there!

  31. Food for thought by koreaman · · Score: 1

    Maybe the language developed without a separate word for green and blue because the speakers of that language had trouble differentiating between the two. Why are the researchers assuming that it's the other way around?

  32. All Language Is Programming by Old+Spider · · Score: 1

    This reminds me of a page I started at Ward's Wiki:

    Computer ProgrammingLanguages are only a subset of the different languages found on Earth. All languages from the most simplistic odors and back-archings to the most complicated multi-lingual pattern labyrinths are used to convey information and direct the actions of others. In order to be effective at communicating and directing actions in a complex world, many different languages must be employed. As soon as one's baby brain realizes how to use sounds and body language to get someone to do something, one becomes a programmer. While a child is a considerable novice to programming, an effective politician or entertainer is a master programmer. It's as simple as getting food and as complex as controlling the populations of several countries.

    http://www.c2.com/cgi/wiki/wiki?AllLanguageIsProgr amming

  33. Hmm by TrevorB · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I find this interesting, because at the age of four, I was legally blind in my right eye. There was no damage, the eye was just dramaticly lazy, and incredibly far sighted. The correction was so strong that without my glasses I could barely see a foot square letter 10 feet away. My left eye, at the time was perfectly normal.

    Years of patching have brought my right eye very close to normal. With time my left has drifted into near sightedness, leaving me nearsighted in my left eye and farsighted in my right.

    However even now my vision is almost exclusively left eyed. My perceived field of vision is biased towards my left, making me turn my head slightly to my right to "face" someone. The information from my right eye is there, it just feels a lot like peripheral vision. I read exclusively with my left eye. My brain actually has data from both eyes, but has difficulty co-ordinating them. Sometimes it uses the double vision to judge distance, but other times, my brain seems pretty good at shutting down the right-eye image when I'm reading. This is all done subconciously, I don't realize I'm doing it a lot of the time.

    I'm still trying to figure out exactly what this would mean related to this article. That I'm unbiased by language? That I'm a wishy washy pinko liberal? I'd like to think that this means my perception of the world is unbiased. More than likely all of these explanations are absolute junk.

    (See, I can't make up my mind. :)

    Side note: Of course with eye problems like this we've watched very carefully for eye problems in our own children. Our oldest's eyes are fine, but my youngest daughter is very farsighted (5.5/6 diopters). People, Watch for and catch eye problems with your own kids BEFORE they turn four. Early corrective measures (potentially surgery, don't be afraid of it) can have a dramtic effect on proper vision into adulthood.

    1. Re:Hmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      begin rant. I am nearisghted in both eyes, but my right is far worse; I can't even read with it corrected. I also turn my head to the right when looking at people. I don't have depth perception, although i seem to during fog or in the presence of strobe lights. Myvision was corrected, though i think only cosmetically. I've been told that my right is physically the same as the left, barring a fold or scar tissue on the retina, but my brain doesn't process the visual information. I look at things primarily through the left. First time I've ever encountered anyone with a visual conditiion similar to mine. As for colors, when describing colors I usually am ridiculed for calling things 'blue' that most people think are green when they are a very subjective color halfway between. I can distinguish them fine, but this happens quite often. End rant.

      ~kfazz

    2. Re:Hmm by rbarreira · · Score: 1

      All the things you describe could just be psychological and explained by the fact that you're used to use the information from your left eye... What I mean is that your example is not sure to tell us something about the physiology of the brain, but maybe I'm misunderstanding something you said ;)

      --

      The AACS key is NOT 0xF606EEFD628B1CA427BEA93A9CA9773F
    3. Re:Hmm by TrevorB · · Score: 1

      No, there's a weak linkage here. It's just curious that there might be a left-eye/right-eye differential in brain processing. I'd never really given it much thought.

  34. Colour Blind? by biraneto2 · · Score: 1

    I think they should test colour blind people that are native american. They would see shades of gray. Also they could test how fast colour blind cand identify shades of gray when compared to normal people. Maybe they are faster even if the colour names are the same.
    Could be some interesting experiments.

    I guess maybe they could realize people don't even think about the color name when identifying it in the brain.

  35. Sci-Fi by gmuslera · · Score: 1

    A lot of sci-fi books took already the idea of that the language in which we think changes us. If well is not exactly about a born language, reading Babel 17 of Samuel R. Delany is always an enjoyable experience.

  36. Linguistic Determinism? by SchrodingersRoot · · Score: 1

    Wait, wait, wait...

    There's no way that Sapir Whorf can be true. If it were, that means that, just off the top of my head, we couldn't lie, entertain theoretical possibilities, hear two sides of the same event, understand that we were misinformed earlier but have correct information now, tell a fictional story, etc.

    Why?

    IANANL, but as I understand the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, on a basic level, it essentially stipulated that thought and language were interdependant. That language helps shape how we think, and that thought (and thus perception) is often a linguistic process, rather than language being the mere expression of abstract, non-linguistic thought. Furthermore, that culture helps shape language, which is, in turn, affected by how we think and perceive our environment.

    It seems reasonable, to me, and my experience bears out the fact that often at least a pseudolinguistic process. To me, the fact that meanings of words are extrinsic to the words, and that they're intrinsic to the people using the words lends some creedence to this. I am also not a Doctor of Semiotics, so my opinion may not be worth much.

    However, I don't see how the interdependance of languange and thought are exclusive to the possibility of fiction or theory. If you're referring to something like the 'prisonhouse' interpretation of the principle of linguistic relativity, where thought and perception is entirely defined by language, my experience/information indicates you're misinterpreting Sapir and Whorf's works.

    As a by the by, I do know a bit about Inuit postbases and such, and am aware of the faults in the 'classic example,' but don't those refer more to strong linguistic determinism, rather than the Saphir-Whorf hypothesis (which is related, but as far as I can tell, not congruent).

    1. Re:Linguistic Determinism? by lawpoop · · Score: 1

      "IANANL, but as I understand the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, on a basic level, it essentially stipulated that thought and language were interdependant. "

      Nope. It says that language *is* thought -- that's what was so gripping about it when it came out. Most everybody agrees that language and though were interdependent. Sapir-Whorf says No, language is thought. There are no mental movies. It's all language. If you say "The barrel is empty" then you *think* that the barrel is empty, regardless of what you see.

      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
    2. Re:Linguistic Determinism? by SchrodingersRoot · · Score: 2, Informative

      I did a little reading in some of my old textbooks and online, and what I come away with is that the Sapir-Whorf view is comprised of two things:

      Linguistic determinism:
              * strong: language is thought; equal to von Humboldt's world-view/Weltanschauung hypothesis, which predated the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis
              * weak: language determines/influences thought; more in line with the Boas/Sapir/Whorf view; this was opposed by what Whorf called the "natural logic" view that language was used to express nonlinguistic thought: "thought does not depend on grammar but on laws of logic or reason which are supposed to be the same for all observers of the universe"

      Linguistic relativity:
              * distinctions encoded in one language are unique to that language; "We cut nature up, organise it into concepts, and ascribe significances as we do, largely because we are parties to an agreement that holds throughout our speech community and is codified in the patterns of our language" (Whorf)

      None of the (limited) writings of Whorf's that I've read imply that our thoughts are bounded solely by the words we have, let alone those that we choose to speak (as would be the case in the example where if we say something, we believe it).

      And the barrel story you point out sounds like something I came across on wikipedia: "Some of Whorf's early work on linguistics and particularly on linguistic relativity was inspired by the reports he wrote on insurance losses, where misunderstanding had been a cause. In one famous example, an employee who was not a native speaker of English had placed drums of liquid near a heater, believing that as a 'flammable' liquid would burn then a 'highly inflammable' one would not."

      Now, I haven't read all of the works of Sapir and Whorf, so I could be wrong here, but I think you've been misinformed about the nature of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis.

    3. Re:Linguistic Determinism? by yndrd1984 · · Score: 1
      I have to disagree. From Wikipedia

      Sapir-Whorf hypothesis argues that individuals experience the world based on the words they possess. Sapir and Whorf asked people to describe how many stripes or bands they saw in a rainbow. Since rainbows are actually a continuum of color, there are no empirical stripes or bands, and yet people saw as many bands as their language possessed primary color words.

      A separate angle on linguistic determinism maintains that language is the only thing that is ever known.

      Only the strongest types of linguistic determinism state that "language *is* thought", as you put it. Sapir-Whorf is a much looser variety that just suggests that language has a strong influence on how someone thinks. The idea that S&W were trying to say that you don't think in other ways, such as in images or feelings, is just silly.

    4. Re:Linguistic Determinism? by lawpoop · · Score: 1

      I don't think I'm misinformed about the nature of the theory. I may have painted it as a more extreme version of linguistic determinism than it is.

      As far as the exploding barrels, I got the re-telling from Pinker's _The Language Instinct_. I don't have it in front of me, so I can't cite it, but Pinker is pretty harsh on any version of linguistic determinism. Pinker does re-tell the story of the exploding barrels not as a non-native speaker, but as workers mistaking barrels full of fumes for empty barrels.

      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
  37. Perhaps, but... by denebian+devil · · Score: 1

    Coming from Washington State, I *know* we have a ton more words for rain than many places elsewhere in the United States. ;-)

  38. Distinguish colors in diff. languages by witte · · Score: 4, Funny

    Using different languages can make an *enormous* difference in how easy it is for one to distinguish between, for example, blue and green !

    Just look at the following Fine Example :

    HTML : #0000FF - - - #00FF00
    Perl : \0032 - - - \0033
    BASIC : Navy - - - Chartreuse


    Clearly, hexidecimal notation of HTML is far superior in clarity to all other languages !

  39. Hell, It hought is was funny... by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

    ...and I'm not a flaming liberal, or even close.

    --
    Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
  40. By the way, I made an error above. by Valdrax · · Score: 1

    I forgot that the Japanese word for brown is "chairo" or "the color of tea."

    Red is an obvious first word thanks to how much it jumps out at us and because of the natural significance of seeing the color of blood. Green and yellow seem natural to distinguish plants. Blue seems to me to be a natural next thing given its presence in the sky, sky reflecting water, eye colors, and veins. I'm a little surprised that brown comes before the various "flower colors" or orange, pink, and purple, but it is far more common than all three of those. Grey seems a natural last since all grey things are either lighter than usual (hair, fur, etc.) or darker than usual (clouds, etc.).

    It seems to me to be a natural order, but maybe that because of my own language biases.

    --
    If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
    1. Re:By the way, I made an error above. by lawpoop · · Score: 1

      Well, I'm stuck at blue. Yes, there are some things that are blue, but you don't need to talk about their blueness. Why would you need to talk about blue veins? They don't stay blue when you cut the body open (whether human or animal), and the are only visible through very pale, white human skin. Blue eyes are an extreme rarity in most of the world -- that doesn't explain why some Indians in South America would have a word for blue if they have only 7 color words. Nobody has blue eyes in that tribe -- it's unheard of, unimaginable. I could maybe see blue skies -- you would talk about blue skies to contrast it with bad weather. If you have blue skies, that means that the sky isn't dark and stormy. But then, you could just say "nice weather" or "sunny".

      And then after that, I have no guess as to why it would follow any order. I don't think it would be something in the natural world that causes that order, but just something particular in the evolution of the human mind that makes this particular order.

      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
  41. Physicists and Blocks by SeanDuggan · · Score: 1
    Most non-linguists are pretty convinced of the same. After enough education to get over common sense, most linguists change their mind. Just like physicists and the idea that if you hit a large 50 lbs block with a 1 lb block that the 50 lbs block won't move. Common sense says it won't, but physics tells us that's BS.
    Except that, outside of locating the blocks in areas of very low friction, the 50 lb block won't move. It's like the old joke about the mathematician located on a desert island with canned food and no way to open them, "Ok, now assume we have a can-opener..."

    On the other hand "everyone knows" (except people who watch Mythbusters) that if you shoot a 150-lb person with a 10-gram bullet, that the velocity of the bullet will cause the person to fly back several feet.

    --
    This sig has absolutely no significance and serves only to take up screen space and waste the time of the reader.
    1. Re:Physicists and Blocks by Krach42 · · Score: 1

      On the other hand "everyone knows" (except people who watch Mythbusters) that if you shoot a 150-lb person with a 10-gram bullet, that the velocity of the bullet will cause the person to fly back several feet.

      Quite quite... much better example. I was trying to think of something that everyone just "knew", but understood wrong. I suppose the notion that there's no gravity in space would have worked also.

      --

      I am unamerican, and proud of it!
  42. These guys were late to the party... by FredThompson · · Score: 1

    The whole idea of left/right brain split has become far less popular among actual brain researchers. Granted, certain brain structures occupy different areas of the entire brain, but it's not a split processor as was promoted in the 1980s (Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain, for example.)

    Beyond that, it sure is refreshing to know that money was spent to "discover" through "research" that people whose language doesn't have words for something find it harder to describe the something than those people whose language does have such words.

    Brilliant! Amazing!

  43. Try again by themusicgod1 · · Score: 1

    You sir, just shot yourself in the foot. I can understand "Schadenfreude" iff I already have an understanding of the components of set A (A={the, malicious, satisfaction, obtained, from, the, misfortune, of, others}). Since english allows the members of set A to be expressed, english also allows "Schadenfreude" to be understood.
    Now, I could be incorrect here, but I'm pretty sure the idea here is that if Sapir-Whorf were the case, and if you were missing an understanding of any members of A, you would not understand "Schadenfreude" without another explanation.

    --
    GENERATION 26: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
  44. pay-per-view publishing by kaplong! · · Score: 1

    Too bad the article is on one of those annoying pay-per-view publishing sites.

    1. Re:pay-per-view publishing by kaplong! · · Score: 1

      Oops, should have googled:
      preprint apparently available at http://www.icsi.berkeley.edu/~kay/LeftBrainWhorf.p df

  45. On the Right... by Lucre+Lucifer · · Score: 1

    In the US, politicians on the right have been using words to warp the views of the people. Coincidence? I think not.

  46. A few comments by Lillesvin · · Score: 2, Informative

    Attention: After writing this I realize that this may well be the nerdiest post ever, but on the other hand I feel that it'd be a shame to let it go to waste...

    Whorf actually said that the structure of ones native language would strongly affect or fully determine the world-view an individual gains when acquiring language. This is what is widely regarded as linguistic determinism in linguistics today.

    Whorf also put forward a less extreme claim, namely that difference in the structure of two languages would generally go hand in hand with differences in non-linguistic cognitive processes in the native speakers of the two languages. This is what is generally regarded as linguistic relativity.

    It's important to note the emphasis on "structure", since the Whorfian hypothesis would otherwise mean that because the Hopi have one word covering "pilot", "dragonfly" and "aeroplane" they can't distinguish between the three. (Obviously ridiculous.)

    Ironically enough, Paul Kay (who co-authored the article in PNAS) was 50% of the infamous universalist duo that wrote Basic Color Terms (1969) --- the other 50% was Brent Berlin --- in which they argued for a universal categorization in the color domain, but lately he's been moving more and more towards a relativist stand-point.

    Kay (along with Willett Kempton) was involved in a similar experiment (the one briefly mentioned on the U-Chicago website) in 1984, where they conducted it as a triad experiment. Three color chips were presented to the subject and s/he had to pick the "odd one out". They used Tarahumara (Uto-Aztecan) speakers and English speakers as subjects. Tarahumara does not make the same distinction between "green" and "blue" as English does, but use one word covering the whole spectrum instead. The colors presented to the subject would be close to where the distinction between "blue" and "green" is made in English, but the two colors closest to each other was not always on each side of the "border". (A is called "green", B is called "green" and C is called "blue", but A and C might be closer in terms of wave-length.)
    The results came out that the English speaker used a naming strategy when picking the odd one out, whereas the Tarahumara speakers did not, they picked it in terms of wavelength (as expected). That was definitely strong evidence for linguistic relativity. I hope this new experiment is as well-conducted and thought out.

    The text on the U-Chicago website states that "Language appears to sharpen visual distinctions in the right visual field, and not in the left visual field", however, I would think that "sharpen" is a bad choice of words and I hope that's not what is meant. Language cannot "sharpen" the distinctions between colors, it can only set up some sort of categorization (as Kay & Kempton described in 1984) and perhaps deceive our brain in various ways. The distinction must still be based primarilly in physiological conditions (color receptors in the eye etc...).

    If you're interested in this subject, I suggest you check out the following:
    Berlin, B. & Kay, P., 1969. Basic Color Terms: Their Universality and Evolution.
    Davidoff, J., 1997. The Neuropsychology of Color. In Hardin, C. & Maffi, L. (eds.), Color Categories in Thought and Language.
    Davidoff, J., 2001. Language and perceptual categories. Trends in Cognitive Science 5:382-87.
    Davidoff, J., 2004. Coloured Thinking. Psychologist 17:570-72.
    Kay, P. & Kempton, W., 1984. What is the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis? American Anthropologist 86:65-79.
    Kay, P. & McDaniel, C., 1978. The linguistic signicance of the meanings of basic color terms. Language 54:610-46.
    MacLaury, R., 1992. From Brightness to Hue: An Explanatory Model of Color-category Evolution. Current Anthropology 33:137-86.
    Newcomer, P. & Faris, J., 1971. Basic Color Terms. International Journal of American Linguistics 37:270-75.

    And of course...
    Whorf, B., 1971. Language, Thought and Reality: Selected Writings of Benjamin Lee Whorf.

    Ok, go ahead, mod me -1bn, karma whore. :-p

    --
    "Live free or don't."
  47. Language and consciousness. by Stalyn · · Score: 1

    Language is the fundamental structure of consciousness. Not just ordinary language but all languages. The appearance of an "I" predicates the "other" and therefore a relationship between the two. Every animal that is self-aware in some form has a mode of communication. Some of it is simple like a bee dance others are complex like a human language.

    The informational reality that results in language is equivalent to the physical reality that results in consciousness. So language is the structure of our thought. Yet many of our thoughts are wordless. However they must entail some form of language or else translating wordless thought into words would be impossible. The structure of thought must be the same as the structure of language.

    So if this is true that language is the structure of thought and fundamental to consciousness it is no surprise it would influence us in deep ways. In a sense language is the consciousness API.

    The limits of my language mean the limits of my world - Ludwig Wittgenstein

    --
    The best education consists in immunizing people against systematic attempts at education. - Paul Feyerabend
    1. Re:Language and consciousness. by TropicalCoder · · Score: 0

      Language is the fundamental structure of consciousness.

      I don't agree with you at all. I believe that we can experience states of "pure awareness" - ie: awareness without conscious thought. I believe that animals live in a state of pure awareness unpolluted by "thought". I don't believe that we need to mentally speak "I" and "other" to be aware of self/other.

      So then what is the "fundamental structure of consciousness"? I am sorry, but I don't really know. I think it is something like an endless stream of images/emotions/impressions - whatever - that come before we attach language to it. Consider this: When we speak, we often pause - "searching for the words to convey the sense of what we want to say". I put that in quotes, because it is such a universal observation that it is almost cliché. In my observation, where am I when I am reaching for a word or expression? It seems to me that I am reaching into a dark void, then suddenly pull up this string of words. There is no sense that I am actually sorting through images/emotions/impressions. It's like I reach into this dark pool of water and grab something and pull it up.

      For the past 5 years I have been speaking a language other than my native English, almost exclusively for months on end, to the point where I am completely fluent. The phenomenon I just described, of "reaching into a dark void", then suddenly pull up this string of words is greatly heightened in my new, second language. When I pause to find the right words, I have no idea what I am about to say, and I am sometimes amazed at the expressions I come up with. Where did they come from? Science tells us they came from neuronal structures in a specific area of my brain, but I have no sensation of such a thing - performing some act equivalent to data retrieval in a computer. In data retrieval, we look up things in a database using a key, but when I speak, I am not conscious of employing some key to do a look up.

      Personally, I have some weird notion of consciousness - that it isn't centered in the brain. The brain is only the interface that allows us to connect to "consciousness". Perhaps there is some kind of collective consciousness, from which we draw a highly flavored interpretation that we think of as "self". In reality, we all have access to this same central consciousness, which would explain the fact that various inventions often arise almost simultaneously in different places. I would say that when the collective mind reaches a state of knowledge where some new though/invention becomes possible, frequently more than one person brings this idea forward. I'm going to stop here. I haven't really considered this at length before, and it's getting just a little to weird for my liking.

      Para quem quer saber, minha nova língua é Português.

    2. Re:Language and consciousness. by Stalyn · · Score: 1

      When I said language I meant all language not just ordinary language. Our thoughts tend to be in images and nonverbal but these images are symbolic. They represent things and their sequence denotes order and relationships. Also I meant "I" not as the word but as the state of being. Without the state of being aware of the self, consciousness is impossible. This is what the "I" expresses. I'm not insisiting lower animals have the word "I" but they have this state of being, or at least in a watered down form.

      We tend to seperate the brain into categories of complexity and at a certain level we achieve language. As if the rest of the brain is just a data processing center. This might be true in the sense that certain parts of the brain just exist to process raw data. However consciousness has the ability to override the results of raw data processing. The tiered model of the brain would insist that the language part of the brain is the last stage and this is where data can be filtered.

      I think we have certain parts of the brain that calculate. Also there are certain parts of the brain that just collect raw data. However these parts would do little without the ability to determine relationships. This is where consciousness comes into play. Now many will quickly point out that computers can determine relationships and they are not conscious. However a computer is pretty much worthless until someone programs it. It takes an effort of consciousness to make a computer usable. I think this is what Wittgenstein meant when he said computers are humans that calculate.

      --
      The best education consists in immunizing people against systematic attempts at education. - Paul Feyerabend
    3. Re:Language and consciousness. by TropicalCoder · · Score: 0

      The informational reality that results in language is equivalent to the physical reality that results in consciousness.

      This is a rather nice analogy, but it doesn't follow that...

      The structure of thought must be the same as the structure of language.

      I have a big problem with your use of the word "same" here, especially when you say "Our thoughts tend to be in images and nonverbal but these images are symbolic." I would say that "the structure of language" can only be mapped to "the structure of thought". However, language imposes a linear and semantic discipline on a thought that greatly restricts its original scope. Yes there are going to be similarities in the structure, but its like a two dimensional representation of a three dimensional world.

      Allow me to differentiate between 1.) the state of consciousness at some given moment, 2.) the thought that examines that state of consciousness, and 3.) the words that express that thought.

      I believe that at the lowest level we perceive things as a whole. Like, our reality at any given moment is the sum total of all our perception, their associations, emotions, sensations, all lumped together into one big, multidimensional blob.

      Then, when we want to explore that "proto-thought" (the original state of consciousness), we trace a line from point to point within that blob. This line can traverse various dimensions, as it runs its course making a finite set of connections out of an infinite number of possibilities. This abstraction of points "and their sequence denotes order and relationships" - to use your words.

      Again using your words "Our thoughts tend to be in images and nonverbal but these images are symbolic." We haven't yet reached language in my discourse - only 'thought'. Now we that wish to articulate that string of symbols, we come up with a word or phrase that maps to each of the symbols, then impose a semantic discipline to organize those words in to a grammar, then finally present that as a statement that bears little resemblance to the original thought. We add non-verbal cues such as expressions and gestures provide more details. At this point, the information content is still but a tiny fraction of the original thought, which itself was an infinitesimal abstraction from the original state of consciousness.

      In summary, I would like to say that language is a very artificial construct, very much removed from the original state of consciousness that inspired a desire to communicate, and therefore, has very little influence on how one perceives the world. In fact, it has just occurred to me the perhaps culturally learned non-verbal language has more influence on how a person perceives the world than verbal language, because it is much richer in emotional content. How one should go about testing this hypothesizes I have no idea.

    4. Re:Language and consciousness. by Stalyn · · Score: 1

      I have a big problem with your use of the word "same" here, especially when you say "Our thoughts tend to be in images and nonverbal but these images are symbolic." I would say that "the structure of language" can only be mapped to "the structure of thought". However, language imposes a linear and semantic discipline on a thought that greatly restricts its original scope. Yes there are going to be similarities in the structure, but its like a two dimensional representation of a three dimensional world.

      When I say the same I mean an isomorphism. Ordinary languages are just a higher level of abstraction but provide the same informational content. I agree that sometimes it is difficult to translate the lower levels into the higher ones. However when you do accomplish the translation the informational content is the same. I'm sure you have read something and suddenly the thought pops into your mind. Also sometimes you have read something and the thought takes while to sit in. This would make it appear that thought and language are two different things. However it is more about ordinary language being a higher abstraction which entails compression and sometimes noise. This allows the informational content of a string in ordinary language to become distorted. It would be nice if we could communicate in the lowest level of thought but such a language would consist of very large strings of data. Therefore inefficient to communicate in unless we figured out a way to increase the bandwidth capacity of our communication channel.

      But the point remains that you can always find an isomorphisn between the different levels. If such an isomorphism didn't exist we would be inable to communicate with each other. If an isomorphism exists the structures are the same.

      --
      The best education consists in immunizing people against systematic attempts at education. - Paul Feyerabend
  48. Whorf hypothesis by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I thought the Whorf Hypothesis referred to some temperature constant for revenge?

  49. Japanese "aoi" and "midori". by Kaz+Kylheku · · Score: 2, Informative
    It's possible that the reason Japanese has a word that means blue-green is by association with the Chinese word that also means blue-green. The kanji symbol that means blue-green has "aoi" is its "kun" (native Japanese) reading. The "on" (ancient Chinese-derived pronounciations) are sei and sho'. Did "aoi" exist before it was associated with the kanji, or was it invented afterward, giving rise to a Japanese word for a Chinese-derived concept? Which came first, midori or aoi?

    The "midori" kanji also has Chinese-derived "roku" and "ryoku" readings which are used in some compounds, so that "light green" can be read as "asamidori" (kun) or "senryoku" (on)!

  50. more than just word affecting perception by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We effect the very reality around us just by being. That act of observeing a particle can change its motion.

  51. history of language research ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    there was this one evil experiment
    in the medival times where they locked up a
    child in a cellar and orders were given to not
    talk in the presence of the child or speak to
    it. it died.
    another child was taken care of by wolves.
    it never learned to speak after it was found
    but would make howling noises and walk on all
    four ...

  52. Addendum... by TropicalCoder · · Score: 0

    In an attempt to summarize what I have just said in my last two comments, I return to the original proposition of the discussion, which is "Words affect our reality". In the process of presenting my thoughts on the subject, I have come to the conclusion that in my opinion, words have little impact on our reality. I have mentioned that I have been living in a foreign culture and speaking a foreign language for the past five years. Then, what have I personally learned by achieving fluency in a second language? I have learned that words are but analogies and symbols for something else, something closer to the truth. I have noted with great academic interest that a different language can use a completely different analogy to imply the same thing, but I think in practical terms learning a second language in itself has had little impact on my perception of the world. What has had a profound impact on my perception of the world is living in another culture, with a very different perspective on things than my original culture has. I will never be the same after this experience. Language is only the tool that provided me access to that other culture and different point of view.

  53. So...Sooo so? by MauroGarza · · Score: 1

    I's sounds like "phonetic phrenology" to me, but what do I know, the only science that I do is "live".

  54. Re: limited experience by neonsignal · · Score: 1

    It is interesting to note that in my limited experience it seems that the more nuclear bombs a culture has, the more words for colors they invent or co-opt...

  55. Words for smog by SeanDuggan · · Score: 1

    I grew up in L.A., and (no joke!) I have 18 words for smog.
    ... and I'm sure most of them can't be used in polite company, eh?

    --
    This sig has absolutely no significance and serves only to take up screen space and waste the time of the reader.
  56. Psychology Affects Our Reality by SeanDuggan · · Score: 1

    that should be left visual field not left eye. See here for why this is so. The short version is that a single eye is connected to both hemispheres of the brain. But anything viewed to the left of center of vision will be sent only to the right hemisphere and anything viewed to the right of center will be sent to the left hemisphere.
    You know, that's one of those things that always confused me. In the older psychology books, they state that it's per eye and have tests to prove it. Now, they state visual fields and have tests to prove it. Were the earlier tests incorrectly done? Or has the field of psychology affected how it all works? I could see early research subjects "knowing" how the model worked so that they blocked out out the right visual field of their left eye when the right eye was covered. *shrug* It just always struck me as kind of funny.

    --
    This sig has absolutely no significance and serves only to take up screen space and waste the time of the reader.
  57. Repressed Memories and Fantasies by SeanDuggan · · Score: 1

    It may sound Freudian, but this time the mechanism for "repressing memories" is backed up by evidence.
    On the other hand, there's firm evidence that it's possible to induce false memories in the process or recovering "repressed memories." I wonder if perhaps the people able to "repress memories" aren't actually just inducing false memories which are more bland to replace it. You know, kind of like the opposite of where your childhood spelling bee memories go from spelling nickel correctly to a titantic clash of the champions from which to emerged victorious.

    --
    This sig has absolutely no significance and serves only to take up screen space and waste the time of the reader.