Finding Programmers to Build a Website?

jameseyjamesey asks: "I have a really good idea for an Ajax/Web2.0 website, but I have no idea how to code or put it together. I know what HTML, Java, PHP are but I have no idea clue how to code or program. Due to my demanding job, I also have no time to learn how to code. I have the layout, design, options, settings and method of making money all mapped out. Who can I talk to, and where can I go to work with someone to get my website developed and off the ground?"

Comments

Craigslist

[poopdeville]

Craigslist is good.

But really, wouldn't you rather just hire a slashdotter like me? http://www.reed.edu/~sollaa/

Re:Craigslist

[Anonymous Coward]

Your designs look like garbage.

Re:Craigslist

[Directrix1]

Dude what makes you think he needs you? We don't even know if he knows how to code.

Re:Craigslist

[John Nowak]

1. Don't list HTML as a "programming language", ever.
2. ???
3. Probably not profit... but still. Don't like HTML as a programming language.

Re:Craigslist

[AuMatar]

Nor is Tex. Its a good skill to list, but not as a programming language.

Re:Craigslist

[Anonymous Coward]

A 22 year out of college kid may know how to code some stuff, but they're VASTLY inadequate for medium to large sized projects. So much for experience (knowing what to use - platform/language/frameworks/etc, knowing how to write GOOD comments, the kind of personnal discipline & strictness required to organize proper and thorough documentation, knowing when to use which patterns, when to or not to optimize, write excellent code, etc). But the main thing is application ARCHITECTURE. At least if someone gets some young inexperienced kid to do most of the coding, one should get an experienced coder to DESIGN the damn thing first. Otherwise these kids will 99.999% of the time come up with something that apparently works and seems to do the job, but which is an ugly hack at best (not overly secure, doesn't scale too well, hard if even possible to maintain, etc). Seen all too many absolute craptastic jobs by new guys (hundreds of them)... I hate it, but hey, I make a good living fixing their mess, so I really can't complain that bad. Think about it, would you hire someone who's "pounded nails for a couple years" to design and build a 20 storey building for you? I don't know if it would stay up for long, but that's about the extent of it... Knowledge and experience truly matter here. That new carpenter would probably do a fine job for lots of tasks (just like that new coder would), but you need a good architect/engineer to make blueprints first.

And sorry, but someone who lists simple markup as a programming language? Your resume goes straight to file 13 without even looking any further. Not to mention things like using DIVs (with id="Title") instead of headers (like h1)? Extremely minimalistic too - not complete crap, but much lacking. Can't say it's an overly fancy design either (layout, margins, typography, graphics, the n00b comments in the CSS that usually show one's direct copy/paste usage of some common templates like bluerobot's and the like [verus CSS knowledge/expertize a.k.a. knowing what you're doing])... Don't want to hurt your feelings, but we wouldn't take you on any project at any price. Hard to tell where your expertize is... It's not (X)HTML, it's not CSS, it's not design, no mentions of any programming languages or computing technologies anywhere... You gotta bring something to a team, be a source of knowledge and expertize others can rely onto - and you've proven just about the inverse all around... Sorry kid, but this is a tough market. Some pros have a hard time to make a living at it, you'll have to try like a hundred times harder if you want to succed. We could hire more qualified people at minimum wage... (not that we do)

Re:Craigslist

[theshowmecanuck]

From the original post... "...but I have no idea clue how to code or program. Due to my demanding job, I also have no time to learn how to code. "

Re:Craigslist

[ComaVN]

He didn't list it as a programming language, but as a computer language. Which it is.

Re:Craigslist

[Baddas]

Some of what you say is true, however...

'A 22 year out of college kid may know how to code some stuff, but they're VASTLY inadequate for medium to large sized projects.'

That's a gross generalization. There are kernel maintainers who are still in high school (last I heard, anyhow). I'm 22 and I've been using PHP to build CMS systems since I was 16, which is coincidentally when PHP 3 came out.

Young != inexperienced

Thanks.

Re:Craigslist

[Directrix1]

Yeah, twas sarcasm my friend.

Re:Craigslist

[heinousjay]

Young == inexperienced enough times to use it as a guiding principle. Just because (you feel) you're an exception to the rule doesn't invalidate the rule. In other words, it is a generalization, but not a gross one at all.

Re:Craigslist

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

Nor is Tex. Its a good skill to list, but not as a programming language.

And not mis-typeset when the TeX community makes a bizarrely huge thing about that particular issue. It's like using void main() in C++; in practice, it very rarely does any harm, but it is incorrect, and using it makes an informed critic wonder what else you do wrong...

Re:Craigslist

[Anonymous Coward]

I was going to call you a dick, but then I looked at his designs and would have to agree.

Re:Craigslist

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

The sad thing is that although the generalisation is true a lot more often than not, IME there really are a significant number of exceptions, and it really is a waste when these people can't get the head-start in their careers that their skill merits.

Re:Craigslist

[dgatwood]

At least TeX -is- a programming language. I've written some pretty hairy programs in TeX. My favorite was several dozen lines to take an ordered list of possible page numbers from a (poorly) generated index and smashing them into a nice, neat set of ranges and singletons by eliminating any single-page index reference that falls within a range, merging multiple ranges that are adjacent or overlapping, etc. It was highly procedural code to iterate through the list.

If JavaScript is a programming language, so is TeX. It's just that most people don't use it directly. They use a higher level, predominantly markup-oriented library language like LaTeX.

Re:Craigslist

[madstork2000]

A generalization yes, but even the most die hard kernel hacker would likely have problems LEADING and organizing a large project for the first time no matter what age.

I have been writing code for 10 years, in a handful of languages. I thought I was sufficiently skilled, back in the day, and I did get the opportunity to lead a couple of big project during the first dot com bubble.

That being said, I look back on hat experience and see how utterly lacking I was. I learned so much it that time about organization, planning, implementation, documentation, user interface, etc.

I am a solo programmer now, and work like to work primarily on mid-sized web applications. Integrating and automating my customers online businesses with their existing brick and mortar / off line sales.

At this stage I have built a rather larger set of custom code, including a CMS, a PHP application framework, and a bunch of admin scripts, along with end user tools that allow me to hit most projects running. I fill a niche, I understand what I do and what my clients need very well, and also know my limitations and routinely turn down jobs that do not fill my skill set.

I'm still challenged enough to learn new things with each project, but don't have the stress of trying to fit the square-peg in the round hole. Some situations are simply not right. My guess is that most college graduates are not going to have the experience to recognize those situations, since the reasons for the bad fit are usually not technical in nature. Red tape, lack of management support, logistics, budget, etc are real-world variables that you don't usually see in college courses.

How often in a college course where have way through a project the professor changes the specs completely, and makes it do a week sooner? Or what about if the professor mandates that you have to work with another student that is at a satellite campus 3 hours away. Or what about if the professor assigns a project, but requires another professor to sign off on each stage of your development. There are some many ways that red tape and real world variables can make a 10 minute project into a 6 month effort. Is a college student going to see those coming?

That's my $0.02

-Ms2k

Re:Craigslist

[Anonymous Coward]

Being young no, lack of commericial or overwise experience YES.

Re:Craigslist

[Mr. Shiny And New]

In my experience, a young person who is the exception to the rule stands out and can make it known that they're an exception without too much trouble.

Re:Craigslist

[aevans]

There aren't any 20 story websites. It's like hiring Bechtel to build your patio. A web application is a small program connected to a http listener that spits out a formatted text file based on a request. It may communicate with a database, hold session information, or even *gasp* use a transaction or two. Maybe it will have a load balancer or session replication. But this isn't the software equivalent of building a skyscraper or suspension bridge. It's closer to the level of adding railings, a balcony, or some steps. Almost every bad design decision that is made concerning web applications is due to too much architecting. Even plain CGI is quite secure and scalable, though it might not be too maintainable.

Re:Craigslist

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

Sure they can, as long as they can get hired by a decent organisation. The big problem for such people is that they're often competing for jobs with people who have a couple of years of industry experience. To the vast majority of employers, those two years are worth far more on a CV than pretty much any academic, hobbist or internship background. Whether they're worth more in terms of effectiveness once hired is a different question, and for the sort of person we're talking about here, the answer might be very different too.

Re:Craigslist

[poopdeville]

I appreciate your input. You're right -- I didn't know what I was doing when I did that page. It should be scrapped and redone ASAP. I'll keep your suggestions in mind.

For the record, I didn't call HTML a "programming language." I called it a "computer language," which it is.

Re:Craigslist

[stonecypher]

Young != inexperienced

You haven't been alive long enough to be experienced. Six years isn't much, especially if it's been spent doing one kind of thing in one language.

I've been programming for more than two decades, and I know better than to suggest that I'm particularly experienced. Here's a cold shock: comp sci is simply a larger field than most. You're not going to be experienced until you're 40.

Re:Craigslist

[douglaid]

Or me? I have built Web stes, but not with PHP. Here, they suffest that you ask at the high schools or colleges.

You'll find plenty here

[CRCulver]

Knowing the state of the industry and how much one has to compete for work, I think that you are going to get a lot of responses along the lines of "So where should I send my CV?"

Re:You'll find plenty here

[Elad Alon]

Seriously, where do we send our CVs?

Re:You'll find plenty here

[heinousjay]

Why the hell call it a CV? Have you no actual work experience? Or do you believe that academic terms carry more weight?

Re:You'll find plenty here

[CRCulver]

In European English, "CV" is the term used for both academic and "real-world" jobs. I've never heard the word "resume" from anyone from Britain or the continent. As I have spent most of my adult life in Europe, such are the speech habits I've picked up.

Re:You'll find plenty here

[heinousjay]

Should have guessed it, really.

Stateside, it's pretty much useless academic holdovers, and people with somewhat pretentious attitudes.

Thanks, I've learned something today.

Re:You'll find plenty here

[Profane MuthaFucka]

Actually there is a distinction between a resume and a CV. A resume ideally fits on a single page and is a very quick summary. A CV can be an inch thick if you have a long and distinguished academic career.

I'll do it

[heinousjay]

but I bet you don't want to pay my rates.

Re:I'll do it

[Duhavid]

If he could pick the right people, he would
probably never have asked the question... :-)

Sweet! A Job!!!!

[mfh]

It's your lucky day. I'm a programmer analyst who would love to get a paying job. Email me! But only if you're ready to spend millions of dollars on this project and give me all the credit.

Re:Sweet! A Job!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Just sell your slashdot id. You can make a few hundred grand.

Be ready

[blurfus]

Be ready to have your inbox slashdotted with resumes :o)

Re:Be ready

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

"Be ready to have your inbox slashdotted with resumes :o)"

Poor guy should have known better than to have this posted on a Friday night!

its simple

[Anonymous Coward]

1: phonebook
2: google

Re:its simple

[mdfst13]

The AC said:

1: phonebook
2: google

I would add:

3. http://scriptlance.com/

It depends what you want. Do you want to sit down with someone and talk over needs? Call some local ISPs and ask them for recommendations.

Do you want to find a big company on the internet to help you? Google has plenty. Hint: pick a few tasks you need to perform and search Google for how to do them. Contact the authors who give the best examples.

Are you willing to risk a little? ScriptLance has a large number of people who are qualified to do the work. You will have to wade through the sludge though.

If you are really brave, you could post your contact info here. There are certainly qualified web designers who post on slashdot. Heck, a year ago, I would have bid on this. Sounds fun.

Re:its simple

[aj9703]

I would say the best place to get your job done is www.rentacoder.com will get your job done at the price you are willing to pay

Re:its simple

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly what part "sounds fun"? That it's in Ajax/"Web 2.0"? That the guy obviously is clueless and you can take him for a ride?

India?

[That's Unpossible!]

Just kidding.

Indiana.

Re:call this:

[Anonymous Coward]

or if you're feeling lonely, call 867-5309

First step...

[Ekarderif]

... is to ask /. people. Oh wait, you already did. Maybe posting some wage information? And e-mailing me about it would be nice too ;).

In the Right Place

[Feneric]

I think you came to the right place if you're looking for people who can code sites using AJaX / Web 2.0 / XHTML / CSS / JavaScript / Java / PHP / Python / XML / RDF / RSS / iCalendar / etc.

I suspect that pretty much everyone else who reads /. (myself included) can do this for you. Honestly you're going to get bombarded with choices, and the toughest thing for you will be to figure out which ones are even worthy of a second look. As someone who sometimes competes in this arena, I can say from my standpoint that you're at a big disadvantage if you don't understand the tech yourself, as it'll be really hard to tell good work from bad work -- something like graphics design anyone can judge -- something like web programming is a different thing entirely. Get familiar with the W3C validation tools for XHTML / CSS / RDF / etc. and tinker around with multiple browsers. When you're looking at prospective designers' portfolios, run them through the validation tools and check them with multiple browsers.

Re:In the Right Place

[slideroll]

something like graphics design anyone can judge

Yes, everyone may have an opinion, but not everyone knows good design from bad.

Open a phonebook

[Jerf]

A slight modification of the "Google it" answer: Open a phonebook. There are like a million companies that do this sort of thing. Find one locally, because you're going to want to talk to them in person. Unless you live out in the complete boonies, you've got some near you.

Once you get going, if in fact you ever do, you may find you need to hire people, etc. That's up to you, and basically a constant no matter what. But if you've truly got everything laid out, you can hire one of these companies.

Your problem is that if you are not technically competent, you can't tell a good developer from one that can talk the talk, but not walk the walk. Hiring developers directly is not practical. This is a handicap no matter how you slice it, but this approach minimizes the risk, if you do due diligence on the company you choose.

Oh, and I hate to say it, but it's a good 99% bet in my experience that if you don't know how to code or program, you do not have it all figured out. But hey, it's your dime.

Re:Open a phonebook

[lukewarmfusion]

Two important points, one of which you've already made:

1. Outsource to another company, don't hire them directly. Doing this will cost you more per hour (my company charges $75/hour and we're considering a rate increase). You can find developers from $20-$50/hour, too. But hiring a company means you get the resources of their whole team, the accountability of their staff to their bosses/contract, and you avoid paying benefits, insurance, taxes, equipment, and office space. Hiring two developers might cost you $60-100k/year - but that doesn't include the resources of a designer, IA, QA, etc.

2. In my area (not even the boonies), there are very few local companies that produce standards-based websites. Let's flash back to 1995 and explore the font tags and frames that plagued the web. Ten years later, any company that isn't doing XHTML/CSS should NOT be hired. If you can't find a local company that meets this minimal level of ability, go find a company that can.

Re:Open a phonebook

[The-Bus]

Oh, and I hate to say it, but it's a good 99% bet in my experience that if you don't know how to code or program, you do not have it all figured out. But hey, it's your dime.

I have a similar background to the submitter, but not his problem. I know enough about code that I know I hate it. Anything beyond simple scripting gets tedious. Luckily, I have a smidgen of experience (an intro to C++ class, some db design) so it helps me to know what is "easy" and what is "hard" -- that way I can still talk to about programming without knowing a lot of the technical details.

On the other hand, if you're a developer, it's a great asset if you can communicate technical requirements and limitations that can be understood in plain english.

Web 2.0?

[hsoft]

I thought it was just a concept. I didn't know that you could actually *build* an Ajax/Web 2.0 website. Sheesh, PHB buzzword fest... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_2.0

Ideas

[biocute]

Have you thought of how to deal with copyrights and other legal issues?

I too have projects that I'm too busy to do, but I'm not experienced enough to draft a legal document which can protect my ideas from developers.

Re:Ideas

[ScentCone]

I too have projects that I'm too busy to do, but I'm not experienced enough to draft a legal document which can protect my ideas from developers.

Wow, get ready for a truckload of slashdot-powered, super-duper-mixed-premises, philosophically tangled up, utterly nonsensical batch of responses to that. Can't wait to see the smoke coming out of it!

You make a good point, of course. Which is why you'll get flamed.

Re:Ideas

[RealityMogul]

Just hold the programmers collection of original Star Wars action figures as collateral.

They won't try to mess with your idea, especially when you're holding those little light sabers in front of a running vacuum cleaner.

DeVry, Other Schools

[MBCook]

As a CIS student at DeVry, my senior project will be similar. Students can bring in their own project and get it approved, or choose one from a list of projects that have been requested by companies/organizations/individuals and approved by faculty. While it would take a while and may not be perfect (you always run the risk you get a team of slackers), you would get it for free. Depending on complexity, etc it may be a project that is designed to run multiple semesters (one team does it one semester, one finishes it the next). The next semester starts in the start of March (first week or so) because DeVry runs on trimesters.

You may be able to get some very smart students to work on it. The idea of getting to do something with AJAX and such sounds interesting to me.

Even if you don't have a local DeVry (if you are near a big city, you probably do, check their site: DeVry.edu), there are almost certainly similar things at other universities (public and private). Even if you can't get it done as a senior project/self study type thing (which would have faculty oversight to make sure it is done right/good design decisions), you could find some bright college students who would be willing to do it for very little money (compared to hiring professional programmers).

Short of that? There are websites that you can have people do your coding for you. You could try something like that, I suppose.

Re:DeVry, Other Schools

[dasil003]

As a CIS student at DeVry, my senior project will be similar. Students can bring in their own project and get it approved, or choose one from a list of projects that have been requested by companies/organizations/individuals and approved by faculty. While it would take a while and may not be perfect (you always run the risk you get a team of slackers), you would get it for free. Depending on complexity, etc it may be a project that is designed to run multiple semesters (one team does it one semester, one finishes it the next). The next semester starts in the start of March (first week or so) because DeVry runs on trimesters.

Wait a minute. What student is going to give away their work for free? Certainly not the brightest ones.

Also, you do not want to hire a web developer without a lot of experience. That person may be a 20 year old prodigy who's been into hardcore web shit for 5 years already, but the chances of finding that guy at a school (or anywhere really) are 50 to 1. Without experience a lot of students may be able to cobble things together, but the cost of poor engineering comes later when you want to add a seemingly straightforward feature, but the code base is such a mishmash that all changes start requiring exponential time. Or what happens when you run into an undocumented IE bug? Debugging in IE is not something that one can be taught in school, you have to bleed for it.

That's not to say that paying $100/hour is any guarantee either. As a layman, the only way to judge is to take a look at their work, test it in a lot of browsers, and see if it has the kind of polish you're looking for. You may be able to save a lot of money with a student, but you may end up wasting time and money on a project that goes nowhere. At least if you can look at a portfolio you have something to go by.

Re:DeVry, Other Schools

[miyako]

As I go to DeVry (yeah, it's even crappier than most people imagine), I think I may be able to shed some light onto the whole "it would be free" thing. The thing about it is, the student's really don't have much of a say. DeVry technically owns the projects that students do for their Senior Projects. DeVry then works out a deal with the companies in turn saying that they get the work done for free in exchange for filling out a bunch of extra paperwork, and agreeing that there is no warranty, support, etc.
University ownership of projects aside- there is another reason talented college students may come cheap or sometimes free. Most "entry level" jobs now still want a couple of years experience, and it's really tough comming out of college with a degree and nothing else. I'm sure it's not an exclusive to DeVry- but there are a lot of people who graduate with high GPAs and very little skills in their fields. Because of this, a lot of talented students are willing to barter work for a good reference on their resume and perhaps some work of mouth advertising.
I do agree that for most projects you are extremely unlikely to find students who are fully qualified (I would agree that 50:1 odds are about right), however in my experience there are a lot more students with experience coding with LAMP/WIMP/etc than in other environments.

Re:DeVry, Other Schools

[MBCook]

The other reply is right. You get it free because the student does it as course work. You could pay them (I think) but it is not a requirement. The student MUST do a project to prove they know what they are doing to get a degree.

And as the other reply also said, the ability to point to something on your resume and say "I made that" is HUGE compared to "I took generic programming classes A, B, and C."

Now you say you don't want to hire developers without experience. But if you get any say in who works on your project (I don't know if you do if you ask DeVry) you can try to get the best, or ask the teachers for students they know are good because you know it is a challenging project and not a generic "I want a website with a shopping cart" like most senior projects are.

As for the poor engineering, this is why you want good students. But as a senior project, they are not given the description and "let loose". They have to come up with a design and they get feedback from the professors. At my DeVry campus (I don't know about others) you are required to get your database design approved by a database teacher. That alone should be a big help.

I'm not saying it's a perfect solution, but you will help out some students, and get it done for free. If it works great, then great. If it works, good. It can be improved. If it is a mess, it's a mess. But it was free. You don't have much to lose but time. And again the teachers monitor the students progress. I've seen entire teams get "fired" from senior project for screwing up. There is some quality control there.

I agree you'd probably get better results from paying a big-name development house, but can you afford that? Or can you afford to take the risk on getting some college students to do it for you, and getting something that may be great, may need a little polish/TLC thrown it's way by a pro developer, or may need a total rewrite.

One more comment on the free thing: you are basically working as a contractor who gets paid in credits. But if you develop an application for yourself (you come up with the idea and get the project approved) you do get to keep your code and you can sell it after senior project is over. I know of teams who have done that. Who ends up with what rights to the code at the end seems to be something that can be negotiated.

Re:DeVry, Other Schools

[Anonymous Coward]

As a CIS student at DeVry, my senior project will be similar.
You may be able to get some very smart students to work on it.

No offense... I'm sure you're very bright... but isn't this a bit of a paradox?

Ajax / Web 2.0?

[TheSHAD0W]

So if you don't know how to code at all, how did you settle on that choice of infrastructure? I suggest you get the coder you hire to tell you what you ought to use to build your site.

Re:Ajax / Web 2.0?

[heinousjay]

Shhh - I charge an extra 25 an hour to bandy the term 'AJAX' about, and 'Web 2.0' adds another 10. Don't fuck up my billing with honesty and insight.

Re:Ajax / Web 2.0?

[BrynM]

So if you don't know how to code at all, how did you settle on that choice of infrastructure?

Don't stop him - many a dot-com got started with this kind of "the new hotness" thinking. Of course they're mostly out of business, but the geeks involved made a grip of cash proving it would suck. PHBs everywhere, don't listen to this guy. You need the hotness to compete!! If it's not new, then it's old and everything old sucks right?

Re:Ajax / Web 2.0?

[marcosdumay]

He has a problem here. Since he doesn't code, he can't know what is the structure of the site. But he also have a fenomenal business plan (most of them are bu***it, but not all like some people will tell you) and he doesn't want to disclosure it so candidates can know if they can hadle the job.

The advise I can give is to hire a generalist with a solid formation. That will be more expensive than hiring someone who just grasps the technology that he needs, but cheaper than hiring lots of people who doesn't understand it.

Re:Ajax / Web 2.0?

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

Just having a great idea for business plan isn't worth jack if you're not prepared to talk about it up-front with a potential collaborator. Ask any VC: if you go in with a great idea and ask them to sign a NDA before you talk about it, they'll thank you for your time and show you the door.

Re:Ajax / Web 2.0?

[bill_mcgonigle]

Ask any VC: if you go in with a great idea and ask them to sign a NDA before you talk about it, they'll thank you for your time and show you the door.

And as soon as they agree to the deal the VC's will demand everybody else working on it sign an NDA. VC's are in demand so they can be jackasses if they want to, and some of them enjoy it. And they're not all lily-white and trustworthy. No doubt some are.

Re:Ajax / Web 2.0?

[marcosdumay]

Here is a hint: Don't trust any VC that you meet with.

Here's a thought

[MikeRT]

Get an experienced developer with experience in software architecture and website development, then get several interns who are young, but promising. Give them a lot of exposure to every buzzword you can in this area so that they can get their resumes well underway. Most of them will consider it a bargain and it's a good way to train up a new generation of domestic coders.

Re:Here's a thought

[Aladrin]

This is exactly right. I coded PHP for years for myself and friends, and only for a very short time for money. I was unable to get a job, so I went to a major technical college thinking the paper would get me that job. I tested out of about 1/4 of the classes and got 4.0 GPA in all the rest. Graduating valedictorian with a 4.0GPA should have made my resume look awesome.

Instead, I found myself unable to get ANY jobs now. Job assistance at the college was severely lacking (I blame the person in charge of it) and I couldn't even get a joe-job because I had a 2 year degree in "IT: Computer Application and Programming." I was practically begging companies to let me intern and prove myself to them, or just get the experience I needed to get a real job.

I finally lucked out and found a company that trusted test-results over paper. They had me take an online skills and personality test at Brain Bench and I blew the other applicant away.

I love my job. I'm underpaid because I know more than they expected, I get complimented on the speed and quality of my work daily. And I'm up for a promotion very soon. It sounds dumb, but I don't mind being underpaid! I finally got my chance to prove myself and add all the stuff I love to my resume.

Check this out: PHP, XML, SQL, PostgreSQL, PL/SQL, Java, JSP, Javascript, AJAX, ASP, JBoss, Linux, Apache, LAPP... Those are just the ones I can think of right now. I'm going to add Perl and cURL to that list very soon.

I would have done this for near-free just to get it on my resume!

In short: Give a kid a chance. (I'm 28, but that's not the point. In Highschool, I'd love to have interned in this. I started learning to program in 4th grade.)

Find A Student

[forensicmeteoboy]

Get a student, maybe from a college or even a local HS. Either find a teacher in the business/computer sci departments, or find some students and ask around.

Most will work for free, or cheaper than a pro, and (if you get the right kinda kid) you'll be much better off.

Oh, and make sure you ask the kid for stuff he (or she) has done... don't get a kid that has tried to 'hack' wordpress and says he knows php- ask for some previous works.

Eeeeek!!! Don't Do it!

[Anonymous Coward]

Number goes to gay porn hotline!!!! (But at least I ordered some really great new stuff...)

Contact Your Local Univesity

[queenb**ch]

I'd strongly recommend that you find a local university that has a master's program in Computer Science. Get yourself a couple of students to write the thing for you. You get good cheap help and they get paid more than the on campus jobs plus the resume fodder never hurts.

2 cents,

Queen B

Re:Contact Your Local Univesity

[RzUpAnmsCwrds]

I'd strongly recommend that you find a local university that has a master's program in Computer Science. Get yourself a couple of students to write the thing for you.

I strongly recommend against this. Although I'm majoring in ECE (Basically EE+CS), I've met far too many CS grads who have no idea how to follow specifications or actually define and program a system.

Web programming is as much about design as it is about programming. I work for a small company, the Kombine group, as a PHP developer. While my job is certainly important, the reality is that programming is only a small part of the actual work.

A successful web application needs:
- Graphic design
- Human factors testing / engineering
- Markup, layout, and general UI design
- Technical writing (help system, page text, etc.)
- Programming
- Testing
- Maintenence

CS students are generally pretty adept at programming, but they have generally had little experience with any of the other requirements.

Industry experience is key. Throw CS students at the problem, and all you'll end up with is a poorly defined, poorly documented system that no one can use.

I've seen it far too many times in my job.

Sidenote: Be careful with the "web 2.0" concept. Ask yourself if your idea is really novel and define your market. Do research to determine if your concept is actually useful. The hardest part of my job is explaining to customers that they don't really need an AJAX web application for their 5-page business website.

Re:Contact Your Local Univesity

[Babillon]

I agree with the parent to an extent, but also the other post stating not to get a standard CS student. Get someone from an Analyst course/option. They're being trained to design a working project that can be used well into the future. They'll do it cheap to for all the same reasons stated earlier.

Re:Contact Your Local Univesity

[bill_mcgonigle]

You get good cheap help and they get paid more than the on campus jobs plus the resume fodder never hurts.

You get cheap and eager help (unless there's a project due or finals, or a good party). If you get really lucky you get good help. Regardless you almost never get professional help, and you have to spend alot of time managing the college students. It all depends on where cost is on your requirements list, but programming is no different than any other profession when it comes to experience. Over the years I've worked with only one student intern who might be considered professionally competent.

Re:Contact Your Local Univesity

[DiarmuidBourke]

Very good Idea. Universities and me are always looking out for projects from outside the university. Great learning experience for the student and great prices too.

Re:Contact Your Local Univesity

[krbvroc1]

This is how I got my first contract gig back in '86. A 'citizen' called the CS dept of their local community college and asked if they new of a good, dependable, motivated student who could help with a project. A professor contacted me and I met with the guy. I did work for several months at this guys house in Fortran - he provided the MS Fortran compiler. He was a damn chainsmoker though which drove me crazy. While I didn't know everything he needed, I researched some stuff on my own time. It made my a better programmer, helped me understand how important getting clear instructions were, and the second hand smoke took two years off my life.

Re:Contact Your Local Univesity

[queenb**ch]

It's sad that you have all these bad experiences. I work in an IT department ON a university. We employ a LOT of student workers in various capacities. We only had one or two bad apples come through. They don't last long and are easily replaced. My suggestion would be to find direct phone numbers from the CS/programming professors. I'd also recommend hiring masters level students if you can get them. The previous posters statement about the party thing applies far more to the undergrads than the grads.

Now for the comments above -

Graphic design - Most coders are horrible graphic designers. The graphic design should be left to the designers and not the coders. Art students are even cheaper than CS students.

Human factors testing / engineering - This particular person does seem to need anything horribly complex, so I have a feeling that would be overkill.

Markup, layout, and general UI design - Your designer should have some input here, but most coders have usually used enough programs to have a pretty good instinctive feel for UI.

Technical writing (help system, page text, etc.) - Since this person's project doesn't seem terribly complex, most of the code can be documented in comments. I've seen you coders in action...I manage a team of developers. I've yet to meet a coder that will actually document anything willingly. I seriously doubt that the gentleman in question is going to leave the page text up to a coder.

- Programming, Testing, Maintenence - Wow! Look it's the mid part of the application life cycle. Which is exactly what you hire the student to do.

2 more cents,

Queen B

you got no money I guess

[Pavel Stratil]

Well I guess you don't wanna pay people... There's an article about recruting people to work for free on an IT related project. You would know if you searched on my site :)

Where are you?

[Geoffreyerffoeg]

Post your location so that local Slashdotters can reply. This website is full of people that could do the job if they could only talk to you in person.

Re:Where are you?

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly, cause none of us Slashdotters have an Internet connection or a phone line. Even if we did, it is almost impossible to demonstrate website prototypes from geographically distant locations.

Money

[killmenow]

Who can I talk to, and where can I go to work with someone to get my website developed and off the ground?

My guess is what you mean to ask is this: Who will do the work for me for "royalties" or a portion of the profits my grand scheme will generate? I can't afford to pay somebody up front.

Because if you could afford to just pay someone, you could just search google or open a phone book as a number of others have suggested. Personally, I don't do contingency work anymore because the pay is lousy. But if you've got money to spend, I'm sure we could get your website developed and off the ground in a jiffy.

I'll do it

[Monkeymatt]

And I'm sure you could find lots of other students who would be willing to do it for very minimal money. It may not be the fastest, but, if you pick the right people, you could get some very good results from undergraduates. Although you could always pick up the phonebook like someone else suggested and call a professional, which would cost you a ton of money.

LOL!

[Anonymous Coward]

This totally reminds me of the time Homer Simpson got to design a new car.

We can do it. Great price to get your web site.

[Anonymous Coward]

Hi,

My company in India is working to help you develop your web site. We are experienced in all technologies like asp.net and php mysql. We would like you to look at our sites we have done and you will be impressed.
www.microsoft.com
www.slashdot.org
www.amazon.com
www.ebay.com

We will make your site for $40 dollars and it will be ready for you soon. Please contact us by replying to this message.

Sandib Ramakrisnakalisanje

RentaCoder

[DiSKiLLeR]

RentaCoder. Well, Maybe.

Re:RentaCoder

[castle]

Somewhat off topic, but maybe not, rentacoder has some of the most horribly content-absent displaying fields of white space in my particular bleeding edge firefox browser. Perhaps the original poster should seek out the arch enemy of the Rentacoder web programming staff.

Re:RentaCoder

[Anonymous Coward]

Usually you'll get people bidding from foreign countries (India and the like). Expect low prices and results proportionnal to what you paid. Their english may suck, you don't have much recourse against them if something goes bad, you can't really check their references, etc. To use a service like that you almost have to do some "screening" by giving out contracts for small "sample jobs" and see how the results turn out. If the code and results are great than you can use them for bigger projects, but I'd NEVER submit a large project directly to that place - it just might be thedailtwtf's next article (or worse).

I would rather get an experienced coder/architect to look at what you want to do, determine what's best to use (platform/language/frameworks/database/etc), how it should be coded (architecture). It might sound expensive, but it'll definitely be worth EVERY single penny you paid. That way you'll have a well designed app that will be maintainable, scalable, secure, performs well, etc (assuming nothing goes bad in the coding). The coders themselves can be lower paid university/college students (good ones that have a clue). Getting a bunch of newbie coders to just have at it... I'm expecting the results to be rather interesting (hey, I make a good living of fixing those kinds of projects - think Mike Holmes/Holmes on Homes, but about software instead of renovations). Don't go crazy and over architect and complicate everything, but don't have them start coding stuff blindly either. It'll take WAY more time and you'll end up with crap (only costing you more to fix than doing it right in the first place).

I know it's been said before...

[The Rabid Panda]

But check your local phone book, and look at the local mom & pop ISP section. Chances are that they've got somebody inhouse who does all their web development. I know the folks around here (say www.velocity.net) do pretty good work and have very reasonable rates. Now, most of them have a flat fee AND charge by the hour, so it would be in your best interests to have at least a skeleton of the project completed.

OR, you could check your local trade school or university, see if they've got a web development program, and place an ad on their board. If you're on a tight budget, post what you're willing to pay (Say, outline the project's details and give a dollar figure. 500? 250?) Require a portfolio. You'll probably find somebody, especially a student, willing to do your project for a decent amount. And remember, if you're hiring a student, you can exploit their lack of cash as much as you want.

Don't hire a web programmer.

[Stalyn]

Because they dont know how to program. If the only language they know is PHP, STAY AWAY!!. Find someone who knows multiple languages which include C/C++, even though they might never use it to program your web app they'll generally be a better programmer.

And no this is not a troll.

Re:Don't hire a web programmer.

[aphoenix]

I think lots of "real" programmers think that web designers don't know how to code. I'd like to disagree. I really would. I can't, though, because most web designers don't know how to code. It's a simple fact of life. However... most "real" programmers don't know how to code either.

And no, this isn't a troll either. I'm just citing the fact that 90% of everything is crap, and programmers and web developers both acquiesce to the rule.

Re:Don't hire a web programmer.

[jZnat]

But you're fucked either way because it's rare you'll find a good programmer who knows two shits about how XHTML/CSS is supposed to be used (and not abused). If you do, you'll probably end up paying out the ass as well... :/

Re:Don't hire a web programmer.

[smagruder]

I would qualify what you're saying.

If all the programmer *ever* has known is PHP, then yes, that's a problem.

But if the programmer has excelled in other languages, and then decided PHP was the best approach for most web development work (and many have decided this), then it's a good thing.

There are a *lot* of well-engineered PHP apps out there. And the app called for in this thread could become one of them.

Re:Don't hire a web programmer.

[Stalyn]

This is what I mean. How do you unknow languages? Either you know it or you don't. There is no qualification needed here. Here's a tip if someone asks you "Do you know C++?" dont say "I knew it." That sounds like poor C++ has passed away.

Once you learn something you always 'know' it. Sure you might have not used it in awhile but believe me things come back pretty fast when you dive back in. Unless of course you've suffered a serious brain injury. I stand corrected you could say you 'knew' C++. 'Yes I knew C++ until my coworker bludgeoned me with a fax machine because of the insufferable frustration resulting from debugging my code'

Re:Don't hire a web programmer.

[bill_mcgonigle]

But if the programmer has excelled in other languages, and then decided PHP was the best approach for most web development work (and many have decided this)

I still haven't seen a compelling arguement why anybody would make this decision. I recently needed to go find a local professional PHP programmer for a client and they simply didn't exist. All the web programmers had evaluated it and moved on, to perl, Java or Ruby.

There are a *lot* of well-engineered PHP apps out there.

But they run on PHP which is a constant source of security problems and not a terribly expressive or well architected language. It may be a good langugage to get your feet wet and there is a large code base because many people started on it but if someone has worked with C++, Lisp, SmallTalk, Python, OCaml, Haskell, and Ruby then decided PHP was the Cat's Pajamas I'd have to wonder about how that person evaluates things.

Re:Don't hire a web programmer.

[PHPfanboy]

The fact that you couldn't find a good PHP developer locally means very little. I know many good PHP developers. You don't. Therefore PHP is a bad technology. Eh?

For the umpteenth time:
- Bad system administrators and programmers are a constant source of security problems.
- PHP is popular because it's performant, cheap to deploy, cross platform, fast to develop, fast to learn and has good support for MySQL and XML and it's easy to find developers.

Enough silliness we've been through this enough times recently on /.

Re:Don't hire a web programmer.

[bill_mcgonigle]

The fact that you couldn't find a good PHP developer locally means very little.

It means everything if you want to run a project locally.

I know many good PHP developers. You don't. Therefore PHP is a bad technology. Eh?

A statistically significant sample size of good developers were queried and all rejected the (paying) work because it was PHP. I don't have any allegiences and was asking simiilarly agnostic developers. I'd expect somebody called PHPFanboy to know several PHP developers.

Bad system administrators and programmers are a constant source of security problems.

Agreed. Apparently some of them work on the PHP core.

PHP is popular because it's performant, cheap to deploy, cross platform, fast to develop,

So far the same as all the other contenders in the open source space

fast to learn

I agree, it's main feature.

and has good support for MySQL and XML

again, like all the other open options

and it's easy to find developers.

No, not so much.

Enough silliness we've been through this enough times recently on /.

Please provide a link to the relevant conclusion.

Re:Don't hire a web programmer.

[smagruder]

But they run on PHP which is a constant source of security problems and not a terribly expressive or well architected language.

Says you. I myself find the opposite. All languages have expressive limitations of one form or another. With PHP, I've found that it's expressive enough for its purpose and the power of its function libraries and availability of reusable open-source code make it a solid choice. And that's on top of what the other responder said in terms of low-cost hosting options and other good reasons.

It may be a good langugage to get your feet wet and there is a large code base because many people started on it but if someone has worked with C++, Lisp, SmallTalk, Python, OCaml, Haskell, and Ruby then decided PHP was the Cat's Pajamas I'd have to wonder about how that person evaluates things.

It's a good language for a professional programmer with great experience to choose as well. There is a wide range of facets to look at when deciding on the best web programming language for the majority of such projects. Who uses C++ for web programming? or Lisp, SmallTalk, etc.? Ruby on Rails is gaining steam, but it's also not widely available on cheap hosting, and open-source libraries are scarce for it when compared to PHP. But don't assume that somebody that has decided on PHP for now wouldn't consider Ruby on Rails or other options once they have become equally viable.

Re:Don't hire a web programmer.

[smagruder]

I'm frankly growing tired of this unfair campaign against PHP. Security issues with PHP are actually minimal (and comparative to other approaches) if a web programmer knows what they're doing. And if one suggests that there are few professionals working in PHP, I'd have to say that was true a couple years ago, but not true today. It should be recalled that PHP wasn't really a serious programming language until version 4, essentially making it younger than Java. So give it a break.

It's more about the programmer than the language they use. And PHP is perfectly viable, and the wide array of solid apps written in PHP clearly prove the point. And that's not to take away from the achievements using other platforms... you see, I'm not into these language wars like some people.

Re:Don't hire a web programmer.

[bill_mcgonigle]

I'm frankly growing tired of this unfair campaign against PHP.

I'm not familiar with any campaign, just seeing what flows across my desk.

Security issues with PHP are actually minimal (and comparative to other approaches) if a web programmer knows what they're doing.

By what measure? I'm looking at the fedora security advisories I've had to deal with on this system - 6 security patches for PHP, 1 each for perl and ruby (and it's debatable whether the perl one could affect a web app), and none for python.

Re:Don't hire a web programmer.

[smagruder]

Big deal. Six, such a huge number. Sheesh.

Yeah, let's throw it out a great platform because of a few security issues (that were fixed). Really really smart. {sarcasm}

Re:Don't hire a web programmer.

[bill_mcgonigle]

It's not the absolute number, it's the relative magnitude.

Based on available evidence PHP sites are six times more likely to be compromised than perl, ruby or python sites.

The risk multiplier each of us is willing to tolerate will be different. But the only time my server's ever been compromised was via an undiscovered (by the whitehats) PHP hole, so it's getting a chrooted jail pretty soon.

Re:Don't hire a web programmer.

[smagruder]

Your overreaction is inconceivable to me, especially given the powerfulness of the PHP platform, but to each his own.

You should just do it yourself.

[neo]

If you can do java you can do ajax. Honest... it's not really that hard. In fact it's boring and stupid, but it's the hype of the moment so you might as well jump on board.

If you really think this is the coolest idea ever, send it to google. They'll make it for free.

Re:You should just do it yourself.

[Metasquares]

And then keep it themselves, never acknowledge the source of the idea, and call it something like "Google Music Search".

Re:You should just do it yourself.

[heinousjay]

And what happens if someone doesn't know the difference between java and javascript? Do they still have the necessary skill?

User group

[eyeball]

If you understand the technology well, you might to search out a local user's group, go hang out, and propose it. i.e.: if you decided Ruby on the Rails, look for a local rails group. If there aren't, maybe a Linux users group.

Well, Possibly in...

[dcapel]

..an extremely tech-friendly site that follows trends of current technological fads and has a very high penetration of coders that could use work to pay for ramen. Another good idea would go somewhere that would know how to leverage open source solutions for your problems.

Nowhere exact comes to mind though...

Make sure it hasn't been done before

[jchenx]

Be sure to also do research to make sure your great idea hasn't already been done somewhere else. Or if it has, maybe find a way to make it better.

Additionally, there are lots of existing software/web solutions which may provide what you're looking for. You should still get in contact with a "tech geek", but let them see if it's easier to combine/use existing products, rather than re-inventing the wheel. Most often, it's the content that really drives the popularity of a web site, not necessarily how it's designed, its features, etc.

shameless plug

[eagl]

It's a shameless plug, but check with my bro. andy at andylong dot org. He's just starting up and only has a few clients, but he's totally customer oriented and will meet any budget to keep a good client.

Here's a sample of something he's done recently:

http://www.prescottregulators.com/

Again, it's a shameless plug but he could use a few more clients and you won't find a better price.

Brutal Honesty

[batkiwi]

Your idea is likely not great nor unique. You sound just like everyone who plays a few games, knows NOTHING about programming or game design, and then announces to the world that they have the idea for the PERFECT game, and if only someone would listen to them!

Re:Brutal Honesty

[AlterTick]

they have the idea for the PERFECT game, and if only someone would listen to them!

...and all he needs is someone to take care of the minor details, like coding it, and composing the music, and doing the artwork. But the idea! It's such a great idea!

Heh. sure pal.

Re:Brutal Honesty

[robertjw]

I understand your point, but putting together a website is hardly coding a game. Sometimes a good idea and a little help is all you need to make lots of money on the web. Look at that kid with the hokey million dollar site.

+1 Buzzwords!

[Anonymous Coward]

Always good content when a user has some good keywords, let's hear it for Feneric!

I'm surprised

[Anonymous Coward]

.. at the lack of web 2.0 mocking. Did you all swallow the koolaid?

jamesey

[Anonymous Coward]

I call shens. Keep it to the CGHMN.

This is a troll

[aphoenix]

I love Ask Slashdots when the answer is really to go to the oracle.

Honestly, there's web developers near you. We have websites. We know what we're doing. I'll do it if you're in my area - send an email to mudformike at yahoo dot ca and I'll get back to you. Give it to any of the other people who replied. We'll even tell you the language you should actually be doing this in for it to be sustainable.

ps - Web 2.0 is what we in the business call a "buzzword". It doesn't really mean anything and you can't program in it. If a client asked me to "program something up in Web 2.0" my fee would climb by 75%.

Some Thoughts

[miyako]

I've done a fair bit of web design and programming, both as a side gig and as a full time job. This said, there are a few things that jumped out at me from your post that I thought I would bring up.
The first thing is that you have to remember that good programmers are not alwyas good designers. Good web design is something that really takes a sort of knack to be good at, and there is not a lot of overlap between good designers and good developers. If you manage to find someone who is both a talented programmer and designer, expect to pay a premium. In most cases you will want to higher a designer (and possible even an artist seperate from the designer) to design the site- and then turn over the design to the programmer who will take the static templates and make them alive. While the designer and the programmer can to a certain extent work in parallel, it's important to remember that the design is the critical path because at some point the programmer has to have a skeleton to put the code into.
The other thing that jumped out at me is the specification that you want an AJAX/Web2.0 site. The truth is that if you don't know enough to code the site youself then you really do not have the information to decide the best way to code the site. AJAX and Web2.0 are both very vauge terms in themselves, and chances are that the AJAX parts of your site may only constitute a small part of the overall application. It's important to realize this because if you convince yourself that a project should be done with some combination of technologies A, B, and C then you may end up dismissing a better solution using Technology D, or end up with someone who only knows Technology A and will end up doing you more harm than good in the long run.

Re:Some Thoughts

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't understand; he is already positioning himself as your manager. That is what they do... ;-)

Re:Some Thoughts

[sehryan]

Amen on the first part of your comment. I am an excellent web designer, but my programming skills are weak. And most of the programmers I know at work don't know the first thing about designing a front end that is accessible, usable, and attractive.

Re:Some Thoughts

[Anonymous Coward]

I dunno, it doesn't take a programmer to go to maps.google.com or google suggest and say, Gee, look how it does all this stuff without refreshing the page. I demoed those two sites to the (non-tech) manager of our division about a month ago, and she said "oh, hell yeah, let's make ours like that."

Note that he didn't say "Use XMLHttpRequest." After all, maybe a hidden frame will work better for what he has in mind. But AJAX isn't so much a specific technology as a type of user interaction, and sites that aren't up to speed are gonna look pretty old-fashioned to everybody before too long.

Re:Some Thoughts

[miyako]

I understand where you're comming from, but the thing is, in you're case, the manage just wanted to copy a look and feel instead of specifying the technologies used to develop it.
The point is though that AJAX isn't the only choice, and it may not always be the best choice. I know a lot of slashdotters hate Flash, but there are times when it's really the best option. Java applets likewise are sometimes the way to go.
It's also important to remember that "just because you can doesn't mean you should". You say that sites not using AJAX are going to look antiquated, however the counter point to that would be that more sites are using flashing interfaces when something simpler and less flashy is a better option.

The State of the Industry?

[Anonymous Coward]

Is the IT economy still in a funk?

I'm Posting AC to keep my company confidential, but I work for a Fortune 500 company and happen to sit next to one of the guys who handles the hiring of programmers. (The IT department has its own mini-HR department.) From what I hear over the cubicle wall it sounds like the IT economy has started to roar again. A lot of people are being poached by headhunters while our demand has grown (even without the people leaving). The recruiting companies my office neighbor works with have stopped spending time cultivating new corporations to hire for, and are putting everyone out to search for talent to hire. Our pay here pretty good too, I recently heard that we're hiring someone 2 years out of college for $150k/year.

Re:The State of the Industry?

[Anonymous Coward]

It seems to be on a per company basis. At my place of employment, we were just turned down in our request to hire 1 more person for our team of 4, that supports over 100 people. They are pretty much insisting that we just scrape by on table scraps. They are buying my production servers on ebay. I, of course, quiipped the old addage about how you put crap in, you get more crap out, but it went largely unheard by the management.

if anyone is near Pasadena, CA....

[jameseyjamesey]

Hey all, I asked the original question. I hadn't considered asking if anyone from slashdot could help, but if you're near Pasadena, California, Msg me on AIM - jameseyjamesey, or ICQ -6479637. I'd prefer to work with someone who is serious and be a partner on the site. I've learned a lot from the responses. thanks.

Re:if anyone is near Pasadena, CA....

[Zelucifer]

So what's it feel like to have your ICQ account /.'d?

Sorry....

[wbren]

...I'm booked solid for the next six months. Check back with me in August or September and I might be able to squeeze you in.

BTW, were are you located?

[randomErr]

If you could narrow the region of the country you're in, it would make finding a canidate much easier.

BTW: Ohio here, will code for food and money.
Email me: tekrat[at]30gigs.killthisreallylongpart.com

Jesus H. Christ - What a puss...

[xxxJonBoyxxx]

"Due to my demanding job, I also have no time to learn how to code."

Good thing you don't also have a wife. Or kids. Or family or friends. They take up plenty of time too.

This whole article should be rated "troll." The author is either an idiot or a puss and probably both; it takes a hell of a lot more than an "idea" to make it out there. I'm sure your "employees" will also be impressed with how much faith you have in your idea as you continue to hang onto your day job too.

"10% inspiration, 90%..."

HAHA!

[mfh]

Just sell your slashdot id. You can make a few hundred grand.
Already bought it on Ebay, so it's not for sale. ;-)

The how to not get screwed checklist.

[c0d3r]

1. A real engineer's time is worth 100/hr without headhunters.
2. Ask for rapid prototypes prior to any bids.
3. Ensure that the developers have extensive experience in the business or trade of the solution's realm.
4. Take care to never tie in to any proprietary technologies.
5. Choose the correct tools.
6. Make sure that the people developing the solution are focused on developing the product, not a framework for the product.
7. Know that with modern web development technologies, that product life cycles are completed monthly with milestones weekly.
8. Make sure that the development process is Quality based with regression tests and configuration management.
9. Be convinced that another team can easily manage whats developed at any time.
10. Ensure that requirements are documented to ensure whats to be delivered is well specified and keep engineering documentation light and only updated after major revs because it is constantly changing.
11. Ensure that the project lead is well versed in development AND networking.
12. Start the project by defining milestones and prototype the deliverables so you can easily track performance.

Theres much more to the SDLC depending on the requirements.

Or a PHP users group [NT]

[dextromulous]

nt

I'm not trying to be harsh here . . .

[Mysteray]

I have a really good idea for an Ajax/Web2.0 website []

Due to my demanding job, []

It doesn't sound to me like you've got the cash or experience to quit your day job and manage a to complete a successful software project. Ask yourself honestly what great thing you would contribute to such an enterprise that your "development partners" couldn't do it without you (and "the great idea" and "non-disclosure contracts" don't count).

I'm not trying to be harsh here, but I think you should probably give whatever money you do have to someone else to invest.

You'll find plenty here -- including me

[hummassa]

As other people told you, you can be /.ed with resumes by now, but... I'm available for that kind of job. If you're interested, hmassa (at) gmail.

Lol, not a troll just stupid

[SmallFurryCreature]

If someone claims to know a dozen languages, stay away. Why? Well it is easy to claim that. I am one of those PHP only coders but could easily claim to have coded in a dozen. Why? Well because I have. I started with C and later C++ in school with a dose of pascal wich later let to some delphi. One company I worked for was a Progress (a 4gl/database enviroment) house so I learned that and worked with it. I used to have a Commodore as a kid so I know some basic and that helped with doing some visual basic. Then I moved to the wonderfull world of the web and the company that hired me used PHP so I picked that up. Over the last few years I developed mostly in PHP but had to deal with ASP systems as well (either for interfacing or replacing). Of course I also had to learn about the various unix like operating systems and theyre various languages like bash, perl even python.

Now there are two kinds of people in this world. Those who would PUT every language they ever touched on their CV and those that only list the ones they worked with recently and got a lot of experience with. I am in the last group. It is a bit like my language skills. I learned Dutch, German and English in school. Should I list them all as langauges I know? Well my Dutch is good as it is my first language. English, well the spelling is pisspoor but it is passable. My German however SUCKS. Oh I passed with a highscore but I haven't really used it in years. Decades even. Oh I can understand the TV news in german but life experience thought me that TV german is nothing like the german spoken by germans.

So I would only list Dutch and English on my CV. Another person, probably the above poster would list Dutch English German AND Spanish because he knows how to order a beer while on holiday in spain.

What am I trying to say? That when somebody claims to know a long list of skills you got to ask yourselve how recent is his experience. Remember Jack of all trades, master of none.

If you see two CV's and one has a far shorter skill list then the other stop for a moment to think wich one is being honest about their skills.

Oh and a final note about the "quality" of people who know C\C++ what the above poster seems to think is a real language vs PHP wich is not. There really is not that much difference. If the above poster was any good he would know one thing. A truly good coder doesn't know any language. He knows how to code. The language is just a tool. It is like say being a photographer. A true genius can take good shots with any camera. Only amateurs will claims you need camera X to take good pictures.

Claiming that C\C++ is somewhow a more important language marks the above poster as an idiot. Language is a tool and you select the tool that is best for the current job and learn it. A really good coder should be able to pick it up in a few weeks. It is called being flexible. New job, new toolset.

Re:Lol, not a troll just stupid

[Stalyn]

I said stay away from people who *only* know PHP. What don't you understand about the word *only*? Apparently everything. Also people who start out with more serious languages like C/C++ tend to pick up better habits. I'm not dissing PHP. I'm just stating if you only learn one language and it happens to be PHP you can seriously hinder your potential. But people do it anyway because they can get away with it.

Anyway you're right about the best programmers know many different languages and pick the best one for the job. Which was implied in my post.

Re:Lol, not a troll just stupid

[Skapare]

A good photographer prefers a good camera. Sure, they can still do way better with a plastic snappy than an amateur with a top of the line Hasselblad or Sinar. But there's a reason the pro prefers the good camera. Being a professional photographer requires a combination of the artistic skill and the technical skill. What if you need to photograph the front of building of several floor levels high, from ground level? Is your shot going to end up with the building appearing to lean backwards because you leaned up to get it all in the frame? You could step backwards if you have the space and waste most of the film area and get a lower quality image straight on. Or you can use a top quality large format rail camera that lets you shift a wide coverage lens with respect to the film plane. But you wouldn't use that large format camera for sports photography if you got a press pass to the Super Bowl. The right tool for the job is what is needed. The pros know what tool to use and how to use that tool.

Likewise, a good programmer prefers the right tools for the job, and knows how to use them. But not all programming jobs are alike. While a language like PHP works great for many and perhaps most web applications, a programmer whose skill is limited to just PHP is not going to know when PHP doesn't do so well, and certainly won't be able to work with something else when it gets identified as appropriate. A PHP programmer is likely limited in experience to get web programming, and won't necessarily know much about many of the backend process chores that might be needed for a full application that happens to have a web interface to it (as so many these days do). A programmer who has experience in a number of languages (it doesn't have to be a huge number ... 4 to 6 languages of a diverse variety is usually enough) ... AND has done actual development in those languages at one time or another, is the one that is best equipped to make architectural decisions about how to set up an application.

And how many PHP programmers know to, and know how to, organize their coding effectively, such as clear separation of logic and content? PHP makes it so easy to NOT do the right thing. When I was doing evaluation of Y2K bugs for a client on January 2000, I found that the vast majority of the bugs that did crop up were errors of lack of experience by the programmer, and errors of convenience (it was easier to concatenate "19" and 2 digits of a year than it was to add 1900 to a numeric value that represented number of years since 1900). Languages like PHP and Perl with their strong facility with strings made it easy for the inexperienced programmer to do the wrong things. The experienced programmer could work in the same language and do the little extra effort to get it right. Programmers of a language like C where the right way is usually easier than the wrong way (comparatively speaking) would have acquired knowledge of the right way (do the calculation, then present the results), and could apply it in just about any language (certainly in all the major languages).

If I were hiring programmers for a job for which something like PHP or Python was an appropriate language choice, I would still hold experience programming in C to be of value. In lieu of that, assembly programming would have some value, too. In fact, given enough experience with enough different languages actually used for real development purposes, I would even hire someone who doesn't even know the language the project will use, because it would be clear they could learn the language (it's just a tool) while bringing real world development issue insight to the project. That fits in with your idea of the coder that doesn't really know any language.

Project Management

[cerebralpc]

I'm a IT Project Manager - so for me the path to a successful project seems simple. But its good you asked the question.

You always start with the Business Case. The Business Case states the objective of the project, the benefits of the project, and importantly how the money is going to work.
You need to map out the costs of the project. Consider the hosting costs, development costs, advertising costs, and your time!
You can even have a few different models - consider that the development might cost twice as much as you think!(IT projects always seem to cost twice as much as what was in the Business Case)
The Business Case also incorporates how you are going to make money. How long will it take to re-coup the project cost.

You also need to map out the delivery time for each portion of the project. Have at least monthly milestones (or weekly if you can)

Very very often your great idea doesn't look so hot once its all mapped out like this. At this point you make the decision to bank roll the idea or not. Let your wife look at it, and also maybe someone you admire for their business skills. They will give you feedback about your idea.

You idea doesn't have to make your rich - sometimes its just great to do something interesting!!

As for finding developers - again thats a question that I find very simple. All you have to do is hire one ! Good ones will charge at least $100/hour. It seems like a lot to you but when you are free lancing 1/2 your time is chewed up finding work. Most consulting firms charge 3 times what they pay to the worker. Thats just how the $ works out.

Go for someone local, interview a few people and find someone YOU can work with.
You have to be upfront about the contract. (Yes - you have to write a contract with this person). It can just be 1 A4 piece of paper with your company logo and details. YOU own the code! For $100/hour YOU own everything that they do - and they have to give you all source code. Give them 20% up front to get them started. On the first protype (at least most of the major functions should work) give them another 40%. The rest on delivery once you have checked everything works.

Once the site is up and running you are going to want to make changes. The best person to do this is coder you just hired. So keep a good relationship with this person. At this point you are probably going to hire them by the hour. Write down all the changes you want and get them to tell you how much each will cost. That way you can prioritise your upgrades. (This is called benefit analysis).

Where to find a geek...

[Androclese]

craigslist.com

I go there all the time for short and long term coding projects. Just write up what you are looking for and they will come find you.

Why Ajax?

[wikinerd]

I can design websites (see my professional webpage), but I cannot understand this obsession with ajax... ajax here, ajax there...! I am fed up with Ajax and Javascript, and I believe they are bad for usability and compatibility. can you give me ONE good reason why one should use ajax instead of web standards and (if web interactivity is really needed) java?

Re:Why Ajax?

[DannyO152]

Ajax and web standards are orthogonal. Web standards relate to what amounts to a gentlemen's agreement between parties: one writes their html and css a certain way and a contemporary browser will render it in a consistent and generally understood way. It's all about how the web page presents and is structured.

Now I've not used Ajax, but I've written a few small jsp/tomcat web applications, and I think I understand what issue it addresses.

When designing an application with user interaction, user input frequently changes the range for future questions and responses. Some examples: pick a city, enter a zip code; do you have dependents, what is their names. The approaches are to

1. Ask both questions and check for inconsistencies prior to processing of (causing a potential return of the form with some sort of message "02220 is not a Los Angeles zip code.")
2. The wizard approach: the user provides a city and state, clicks a button, and a new form appears which asks for the zip code from a list of valid zip codes for the city, and
3. Have a controller listen to input fields and respond to events by changing the view dynamically so only valid choices are available.

For a basic garden variety <form action="postInfo.do"> web page, the third choice is problematic primarily because http is stateless. But also, good web application design means the controller is on the server and it knows two things: how to build a model from the data received and where to pass that model for something else to parse, validate, apply business rules, process and persist. The only traditional way to get the controller going is to send a http POST or GET to a url.

Ajax is meant to give developers that third option for their web applications, by providing a listener mechanism with which the controller on the server monitors and revises the downstream input fields when the user makes a choice in an upstream input field. And notice that if the range of the user's input may be dynamically restricted, the server can avoid checking for inconsistencies such as Los Angeles, Colorado. It also reduces the number of times a form gets returned to a user (I'm guessing that there is a significant number of people who just bail at the point the same page comes back with error messages.) It avoids irritating the user, when they have to consider what to put in a field when an earlier choice made the response irrelevant, obvious, or the exact same answer the user gave yesterday. (It also makes the web application look better when, upon entering Elaine Package-Receiver's name, it shows the address in the correct field, without the click, wait, and redraw cycle.)

So: one good reason? As I said I haven't used it but I can seen where something like it would be good for increasing a web application's efficiency and user friendliness.

Re:Why Ajax?

[Webz]

It sounds like you think Ajax is something exclusive of web standards. Really good Ajax is just like good DHTML, it degrades gracefully. So no, they're not incompatible.

Here's the numero uno reason to use Ajax over whatever else there is in the world (Java...): light-weight asychronous data transfer, used towards tightening user interaction and feedback.

Read the original article if you still don't get it. http://www.adaptivepath.com/publications/essays/ar chives/000385.php

PS - While I make no claims to my personal ability to do the same, your website doesn't give me a lot of confidence as your to your ability to *design* websites.

Similar question... site profit as pay?

[httpamphibio.us]

I tried to submit a question like this a couple months back... I have two ideas for sites, both of which are pretty simple (php and mysql should be able to do it) and would be fairly quick to put together. But, I'm a poor starving fine arts grad student and don't have any money to pay a programmer to do it.

Do any programmers work for future profits anymore? I don't care to make a dime on the sites, I just want them to exist and have a way to cover their expenses (Google ads would more than suffice, I believe), and everything else above and beyond that can go to the person that made it.

rentacoder

[austad]

RentACoder

I've used them for a few projects and always been happy. Some girl in Azerbaijan turned around some PHP code for me in under an hour, and it cost me $18. It was nicely documented and did exactly what it was supposed to do, which was to connect to two separate databases and transfer data from one to the other. Both DB's had different schemas also.

Just post your project, people will bid on it, and select the coder with the best bid/rating combo. Yeah, it's outsourcing since the best bid will likely come from another country, but if you want it done on the cheap, this is the way to go. The way I look at it is that I'm probably helping someone out who is in a less fortunate living situation than I am.

students

[wwmedia]

be carefull with them "freelance" sites,

some of the people posting there have absolutely no experience and u have little guarantees that ur "programmer" knows his constants from his variables or that he will deliver results on time or on budget

How about a contest?

[aevans]

How about a contest? Set up a set of specs for a version 1 (you can even hide your cool idea if you want) and let people submit working models for you, along with demo graphics if wanted. Then you can pick from the (much smaller) list of candidates who show both initiative and expertise.

U have what we have and U don't have what we don't

[Elixon]

You have very nice dream and you don't have enough resources (intellectual or simply time) to make your dream come true without helping hand. I'm having a special scribbling block for this kind of ideas. Now I'm at the great idea #195 (not kidding) and I know that 95% will never come true because I have limited resources so I need to choose only the brightest ideas. I hope that your Idea is one of that 5% sort.

What you think that people remember from your short article? I'm afraid that 99% of them remember only "method of making money" . Because the only information I got is "he wants to have a cool website and he has a plan how to make money from it" .

I learnt that if you have great Idea it is not good to mention word "money" when talking about it. You will gain only attention of swarms of "money-hunters" which is certainly not good for your Dream. You should speak about the project itself and less (or not at all - if the project is interesting enough itself) about the benefits coming from it. Do you want the people to be interested in benefits or in your surely cool project?

My guess is that all people that you just attracted will help you only share the profit so the best way is to look among your friends or friends of friends to find the right people that will share your idea (and not only profit).

TeX is turing complete

[Anonymous Coward]

HTML isn't.

a few key tips

[dchallender]

A few mini points as /. comment space is limited.
Better off with a small company or an individual developer assuming it's a relatively mini project, a big consultancy company will screw you for cash and your project will just be a tiny one of many and so will not necessarily get the same attention and effort at crucial times than it would if it was the only / a major contributor to paying that months mortgage.

A key thing is design and specification of the project, get very scared if people quote timescales and prices without the project being adequately specified at that stage: It is only in the detailed analysis / design / specification stage that you get a real idea for the potential pitfalls. Note requirements will not just be what the site should do but will include resilience (incl. security issues), throughput etc. - there's no point in an initially "great" solution that falls over once your site gets a decent level of traffic.
If you do not have proper specs then the whole thing will be a fiasco as, once development starts, any "grey areas" will inevitably act to push the project over time and over budget.

Get very, very worried if the team will not quote a firm timetable, with appropriate penalties if they are late. You DO NOT want the type of contract that is just open ended and you pay by the man hours of work - again this will end up over time and over budget as there is no incentive to get the job done quickly and efficiently... a fixed price contract is best as it's a good incentive for developers, if they do a good efficient job then they get good pay rate.

A key element to sort out is acceptance / stress testing - you really want someone independent from the development team trying to break the product as they will come at it with a different mindset. You can never underestimate the importance of a full test of a product before you sign off acceptance.

Whatever OS and software used chances are, esp for web based app, that patches / upgrades may be needed esp for security, that's a key thing to have sorted which leads to think future: Chances are you will need future maintenance, enhancements etc or maybe you get the team to run your solution - a (relatively) small monthly fee and they admin it as needed?.

Good luck--you'll need it

[Anonymous Coward]

The world seems to be full of people with Great Ideas for a website who want someone else to "partner" with them, i.e. buy in so deeply that they're willing to work for free, accepting the risk that the work may or may not ever offer a return on the time invested. I have been approached by a couple of people like this myself, usually on mailing lists. Evidently they like my answers and help so much that they'd like to have it on their beck and call.

I'm sorry, but what do you think is really in it for someone like me? I do AJAX work myself and am gainfully employed. I'm not interested in working for free for someone else's ideas, and I'm not as likely to be as gung-ho about them as for my own ideas that I would like to spend time on someday, but stay too busy to get to them.

Do you really think you're going to find an underemployed AJAX hotshot who buys into your idea so deeply he'll instantly "partner" with you for future profits and glory? I think you're in dreamland.

How much? What grade of coding?

[digital photo]

Hey, sounds like you've got a great idea. AJAX is the new buzzword and quite frankly, with so many people being drawn to it, best of luck.

Here's the issues/problems:
- cost.
- quality.
- features.

First off, do you know what you want? Was this something that was going to be enterprise grade and can handle a good number of visitors or is this something that you just want created for the heck of it? Do you have money to pay the person to develop it? And if you do, do you have enough to include all of the features you want?

Seriously, your best bet is to make friends with someone who has the following characteristics:
- free time on his/her hands
- the skills or the impetus to learn the skills
- good organizational background to build up the site with documentation(unlikely)
- someone who can communicate with you clearly and vice versa

This person is most likely willing to help you out without asking for alot in return. Offer them a good chunk of the monies, if any, or free coffee/food/etc.

The first thing you need to do is flesh out your idea more, write pseudo code and flow diagrams to get the ideas down on paper. Then go over it with your friend/coder to rule out or change things that won't work.

Who is this person? Could be a co-worker. Could be someone you meet at the local club/meeting of whatever. Could be someone you find on Craigslist, etc.

Just be prepared to pay mondo bucks, if you want to hire someone outright to code your site. At this point, it isn't a website you and the coder are building. It's a web based application.

Here is your primary problem, above the money and access to skilled help: Time.

If you don't have the time to learn the AJAX language to build a test site, how do you intend to have the time and resources to work with someone to build up your site? If the person you hire is the one with the skills to build the site and they understand it, but you don't, how do you intend to prevent them from walking off with your concept and leaving you without code or product?

Think about that.

Find the time out of the week to set aside for your project first. Learn something about AJAX, like how to code a basic page. Once you have your idea fleshed out in AJAX on your own site, THEN find a developer to help you take it to the next level. Otherwise, you're just wasting time and money.

Btw, have you considered Flex/Flex2? (Adobe/Macromedia product) which requires much less programming experience?

I did this AJAX page in no time

[cbmeeks]

It was sort of a "see if I could do it". http://eblarg.com/quotes/ Send me an email and maybe we can see if I can provide what you need. cbmeeks cbmeeks AT gmail DOT com